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Now we're going to, um, hear about three remarkable women who have written about three remarkable women, and I want to know how they initially how they came to write, choose their subjects and write books about someone else's life. So first of all, we have Ali Mao, who many of you know is, um, a broadcaster and, um has been a television presenter and has been a wonderful, um, leader [00:00:30] in our community in terms of being a high profile person who was proud to come out. And, of course, now she is an author. And she'll be followed by Joanne Drayton, who some of you heard last night, who has, um, who works particularly in the area of of art and, um, art history and history generally, and has written some marvellous biographies of women artists Edith Collier and all sorts of other women artists, many of whom are obscure and would would remain in obscurity if it wasn't for people like Joanne actually [00:01:00] bringing them out into the light. Um, in particular I mean, also, um, who's the crime writer Nia Marsh as well. And then, of course, the the book that became The New York Times best seller, Uh, the search for Anne Perry. And the thing about Anne Perry, I think, is that in this she's not so popular in New Zealand. I mean, we don't sell her her crime books in the women's Bookshop. No one ever asks us for them, but she's a huge hit in the States. So, um, everybody reads Anne Perry crime novels in America. And so they were fascinated by this [00:01:30] book, and it became a New York Times best seller. And then Julie. Now, Julie, how do I pronounce it? Julie has written perfectly natural, which is an extraordinary story of Florence, who became Peter Williams and lived her entire life as a man. And this is a very interesting piece of New Zealand history. So I'm going to ask each of these women first of all to talk about how they came to choose this subject and [00:02:00] how they went about writing about someone else's life. A um, first of all, thank you so much for for inviting me to speak here. This You have no idea how thrilling this is. I'm a first time writer, uh, apart from my journalism over the years, so I'm just beyond speechless. Really? Um, and I'm really most excited about listening to our other authors today, so I'll get my bit over as quickly as I can. Um, most of you do know me as a broadcaster. Um, and I do have, I suppose, 30 years in that space. [00:02:30] But, um, I am also the daughter of a writer who was the son of a writer. I'm a third generation journalist, Uh, and I am the teenager whose essays, school essays, um, were eviscerated by my father with a blue pencil, every single one I had to bring home. And and he edited. Um, so I've always thought of myself as a writer. First in a in a funny kind of way, although, uh, for years, I haven't really been able to express that in any meaningful [00:03:00] way. Um, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that most journalists, uh, have a secret hankering to write a book. Well, I found this out, Um, really strongly. When I did some press for for first lady. And, uh, most journalists I spoke to would spend about half an hour asking me questions about the book and then half an hour grilling me about what it was like to write the book kind of off the record because they were working on their own projects. Um, many of us spend our careers, I think, looking [00:03:30] for the right story that the really important story that speaks to us, um, preferably one that's never been told before and can't be told in a short form in a newspaper or magazine article. And, uh, I know I did almost unknowingly spent my career looking for that. And I'm incredibly fortunate to have come across Liz Roberts and her very important life story. Um, we met. How did we come across each other? Uh, in 2012, I was working on fair go and, [00:04:00] uh, the close up programme at TV. NZ asked me to come on and talk about same sex marriage. They wanted a debate that first of all, they wanted me to debate to debate with a Catholic priest, and my son had just started a Catholic school. So I said, uh, that's probably not a good idea. So in the end, I went up against a Baptist minister and we had actually quite a cordial debate, which I won. Well, at that stage reform, you know, there was such a tide of reform that I couldn't possibly lose, [00:04:30] I think, Um, Anyway, uh, the next day at my desk at fair, go, um, the front desk put a call through which they never do from a stranger. And it was an elderly Christchurch lady who introduced herself as Elizabeth. And she just called to congratulate me on what I how I had done on the programme the night before, which was really lovely of her. And we got chatting. And after about half an hour, I said to her, Liz, has anybody written your life story? And she said Somebody had once [00:05:00] tried, but it was so sanitised that she chucked it in the bin, which gives you a little bit of a taste of what Liz is like. Um, she's quite, uh and I made the rash offer. I said, I'll write it. Which was ridiculous. Really? Because I'd never written a book or even tried to write a book. Um, and I went home all excited and said to Carlene, uh, I'm gonna write this book, this woman's life story. And she was furious at me. She said, you you have to do it now because you've made the promise [00:05:30] to her. So now you have to go through with it. And don't you dare. You know, don't let me find you reneging. Um, so I did. And Liz and I started to meet and to talk. It took us two years. Uh, we did about 50 to 60 hours of interview. And, of course, as we talked, we we became more familiar with each other and and friends, and our sessions got more chatty and gossipy. And in the end, transcribing it all so that I could write the book was an absolute nightmare because there were long [00:06:00] tracks of when we would talk about dogs and kids and pointless chat. Um, so that was something I've learned, uh, for next time to stay a bit more focused. Uh, in my research, Um, I think much of the process of a first time author, um, is driven by fear. Uh, I I'm very, very, very grateful to upstart press and to Warren Holder, um, who committed to the book without even saying a word of it. Um, this is a small publishing company [00:06:30] who mainly print cookbooks and rugby and rugby books, and that's how they make their money. Um, but they also, um you know, they Greg McGee, publisher. So they also do, uh, work in other spaces. And this was a risk. This is taking an enormous risk, This book and I'm so grateful to upstart for, uh, actually, their commitment helped push me through the process. I. I suspect I might have given up at some point if it hadn't been [00:07:00] for them. Um, so I'm very, very grateful to them. Um, I suppose I do know now what my writing process is, and it's this I. I write a chapter, then I rewrite and then I rewrite it again. And then I put it in the in a draw, literally in a hard copy form on paper, in a drawer for a month. And then I take it out again and I rewrite it again. Uh, and I, you know, kind of dragged the process out a bit. Um, because I was so determined, [00:07:30] I think also because it was my first outing that it be right, but also because it's not my story. Um, it's somebody else's story and I felt an enormous weight of responsibility for that. Um, there was one principle that I was determined to stick through to through the whole thing. It had to be in Liz's voice. It had to sound like Liz. And Liz is a very pragmatic person. She tells her stories. Uh, she told me her life story with great humour, [00:08:00] but she she's she doesn't add any frills. So my natural writer's, um, impetus to dress it up. Uh, I had to go and take all that out again if it started to slip in, Uh, because she speaks in a very spare manner and it had to be in her voice. I had to sound like her. Exactly or I'd failed. Um, and when it was published, one of her closest friends wrote to me and said that when he read it, it was like Liz was sitting across the room telling him the story. [00:08:30] So he actually wrote the forward for the book as well. So it was an enormous compliment. Um, I suppose that a life retold to someone else's by necessity makeup of the stories that we recall from childhood and from our early adulthood and love affairs and travel and sickness. And in Lisa's case, lots of surgery. Um, and all of that has to be woven into a narrative that pulls the reader through the story to the end. Because [00:09:00] my other great hope for this book was that it wouldn't be just a piece of New Zealand history. Um, history, if it's not, uh, written entertainingly can be very dull. Um, so it had to be a book that you wanted to read as well, and that would hold you till the end. Um, I wanted to write it as a selection of stories under a group like a A group under the headings. But the publisher told me No, they'd rather it be chronological. So then I had to start again. I pulled it apart [00:09:30] and started again, Um, and matching up the dates of events from somebody's life going as far back as 19 forties, Christchurch was quite difficult. Um, I had a lot of, you know, revisiting Liz and trying to knit, um, times and dates together and events together. That was probably the hardest part of putting them together in the end. Really? Oh, good. I'm so glad because I started to panic. At that point, there was stuff that didn't match [00:10:00] up. And I had to go back to her many times and say No, no, that chapter appears to take place in 1917, and then suddenly we're in 1983. So that was difficult. Um, some things had to be left out, and I know, and I know that you want What did you have to leave out or choose to leave out later? Yeah, Um, just in finishing, I would absolutely write another, uh, ghost Write another biography if I ever came across [00:10:30] a story as incredible as Liz's. Um, And I hope I get that opportunity at some point. So that's first lady. OK, right. And now Anne Perry. Thank you. OK, um uh, I, uh, thank you very much, um, for this opportunity, and it's just wonderful to be here. And it's amazing how early everybody's got out of bed to be here on a Saturday morning. And I thank you very much for that. I found it hard, so I'm sure you did too, but, um I, I guess [00:11:00] with, uh with, uh, I. I should explain that, um, after writing art history for, um, many years. Um, II. I got to the stage where I was sick of looking at paintings and I wanted a dead body because I I wanted a dead body. Because III I was always thrilled and captivated by kind of working out being a detective, working out a plot, uh, trying to trying to sit there as the as the reader and and work out who who did it or who done it, Um, for, uh, the [00:11:30] The author actually told me the writer told me. So I was, uh, So Nia Marsh was one of my great passions, And I can remember I I actually, Patricia went with when I was, um, in my, um, teenage years and then Nia Marsh when I was breastfeeding, Um, just to just to kind of because it was one that I could put down and I could do all sorts of other things and I could come back to Nia Marsh and she was reliable and there was always a death, and you could kind of tie it up at the end. And it was much [00:12:00] more made much more sense than my life did at that time. So Nia Marsh was just wonderful. I loved writing about her. I met her as an eight year old, and my one of the great proteges was Jonathan Elson. And he was, um he he was acting in a play on and I I met, um, Marsh came. She came into the room and her kind of nose almost preceded her around the corner of the door. So she was and and and she boomed away. And I and my mother said, You know, she's one of those sort of women [00:12:30] And I thought, What because I was only eight? And I thought, What are those good sort of women? And it intrigued me and and but But she also So So when I when I wrote the book and finished the book on Marsh and I still hadn't hadn't lost my blood lust for dead bodies Um, I thought Anne Perry, this is the perfect, um subject. Because I had grown up with I. I knew Marsh, but I had grown up with the story of Anne Perry or or Juliet Hume and Pauline Parker. Um, my [00:13:00] mother went to school with them. She sat, Just stop me if I give me an evil look, OK, uh, evil. Look, I I'll get it out of the side of my own. Uh, I'll feel it. Um, So So this My mother used to stand behind them in assembly, and she thought that relationship was too intense. And we're a little bit weird because they they were very, um, separated and very much in this whole kind of, um, unit. Um, but, you know, she she also felt, I think quite profoundly that [00:13:30] they were young and she understood, uh, that they were persecuted and treated in a way that she felt even though the horror of what they did was, you know, overwhelming. And it overwhelmed everyone that that that it was inappropriate. And she was a contemporary of this. So I grew up with a little bit of balance, but not much, because it was my mother. And, um, and also the cautionary tale of, um, Victoria Park and, um, and going up there and bricking, um, the mother [00:14:00] to death. And I grew up with that story, and it was, and it taught you not to be a lesbian because it was the one story. It was it, you know? You know how sort of you know those fairy stories? They teach you something, don't they? Well, the one message in this fairy story was that you don't You're not. You don't want to do that. So I didn't, um and so and so not only I didn't, but I married an Anglican minister, which seems incredibly extreme, but But, I mean, it was I was terrorised by that story. I really was. So [00:14:30] I wanted to do everything I could to stop, you know, going there. Um, obviously it didn't work. Um, so So So, in a way, that was the story of my life. That was my story. But that was many people's story and I. I wanted to unpack and unravel it. And when I started the first book, the Anne Perry book, I read, uh, well, I I actually came out. She was revealed. Suddenly, this, um, crime detective fiction writer was revealed as my mother's chum at school or contemporary at least. And, [00:15:00] um so I sent um uh, I. I sent my mother the book for the first book that I managed to get hold of for her birthday, and I wrote. Look what your your school buddy is up to now. So So it was my story. I wanted to and and I thought, of course, now that I've written, she would instantly think that I was the best option and know instantly that that that that was the story. And so I wrote, um, appealingly to her, I believe, But it was actually to her, um, agent and I got the the you [00:15:30] know, First of all, I got that. We don't think she's she's ready for this or interested in this. And so I thought, Well, that's a bit of a turn off, but maybe she will be in. And then I got the dear John letter. Don't bother. You know she's not interested. Uh, you know, we'll get back to you if she ever is. And we I knew she wouldn't be because she had actually turned down Oprah Winfrey. So I wasn't, you know that? Mortified. Um, So I was I was I was handling it, but what actually happened was I went on a trip. We did some filming on Marsh in London. I came back on one of those long haul flights, and [00:16:00] you get. You're sitting there with your mask on, trying to go to sleep. And I've just been reading this book on in and and it was sort of written from someone who actually was passionate about her writing. And I thought I can write this book about her writing. You know, I don't need to have Anne Perry involved in this. So I wrote this very gory, uh, proposal. Uh, and I sent it into Harper Collins anyway. And, um and And what? What do you know? Um, ultimately, they gave me a contract, and then So there I was with a contract. No, [00:16:30] no, no. I was subject to be involved with it, And I realised how really difficult that is. And and something maybe you you you probably felt, uh, you know, at at the time, although you didn't know who she was, you did. Yeah, but no one else did. Um, so So, um, essentially, um, II I my partner said, Why didn't you, um, write to her? So I wrote to her agent and said, I have a contract. She said Congratulations. Seeing the proposal far out, I thought that's amazing. So I cut all the gory bits out [00:17:00] or some of them. And I got onto the reflective part, which was really what I was going to write about anyway. But this the gory bits were just in case the panel was too young to remember. Um, so So what? I but I? I did include this and and and and and it is It is amazing to have discovered a voice for Juliet Hume and the writing of Anne Perry and New Zealand needs to listen. It is time to move out of the 19 fifties, the details of which have been frozen in time and ground over long enough. In today's context, this is punitive [00:17:30] and embarrassing. Anne Perry's story needs to grow to leave behind the terrible mistake of a of a young teenager and mature to acknowledge the remarkable adult contribution and achievements of one of the world's most well known crime, DS. So I sent it off and I thought, Well, that will be the last I will hear from them, you know, and and I. It was early morning because I had to kind of tidy up my proposal and cut the bits out that were ugly and so I sent it off, and, um, the next morning there [00:18:00] were two, emails from from her from her agent. And, um, when I opened the first one and it said, um, thank you very much, this is very helpful. I'll pass it on to Anne and the next one said, Anne, I'll meet you in London in July. So, um so here we are Oprah, you should have, um the But But there is a right time for people and it was the right time for her. And it was she She had something she wanted to say. And maybe even [00:18:30] at that stage, instinctively, she felt that I was a safe person to do that with and and like, you know, the interviews were like, just like, you know, I used to go out walking because there was so much drivel that didn't mean any. But that's because people need to be safe. And in some ways it's all those spaces and the stuff that you leave out that actually pulls out of people the the heart of of of their their story. So and it comes out of those safe moments when in some ways you they know that you care. [00:19:00] And I think that's that's all you have to do with biography is care. You have to care for the person's story. You have to, uh, well, and I think, Well, I can probably just about leave it there. Um, but, uh, you know, I think I think that that we can talk about spaces and gaps later. That's great. I mean, that's what you were saying, too, that the sense of responsibility and so that you as an author, your integrity is is paramount. Yeah. So, Julie a a woman who lived as a man all [00:19:30] her life in a in a time when really it was not done. So, um, first of all, I'd like to thank Peter, um, for creating, um, such a historic event, which this weekend and this week and so on is So, um, it's, uh, fantastic to to, um and I would like to acknowledge the, um, Alison and Joanne for their contributions as well, as well as their subjects, um, to our lives, broadly and generally. And, uh, not through the lens of the heterosexual world. [00:20:00] So I think that's most important. Um, how did I come to write this book. Um, I think there's for me. There's two, two, beginnings. One is, um, coming out as a lesbian in Auckland in the 19 seventies, going to a club down on Beach Road. Where? There. I walked in, and there were some people here who might have been there at the time. I walked in and I looked around and and, uh, there were, you know, a number of women there. It was all very hush hush. It was, um, the The [00:20:30] location was above a motorcycle club. Um, so you sort of went up this side, um, stair stairwell. I looked around, I met some people, women there. And I thought, Where are the older women that they were? All younger women seem to me anyway. Maybe they weren't. Maybe they were just very youthful because of their lesbian lifestyle. But I thought that we are the old women. And as a historian, I thought, um uh, you know, where where where's my lesbian history? And at that, that point [00:21:00] it was really that night, I decided I wanted to write, um uh, the lesbian histories or histories from a lesbian perspective. I was a student at Auckland University at the time doing a master's in history. So, um, so that's one strand the second, um, I suppose the trigger final trigger for, um, my book, um, actually arose out of the park and Hume, um, work. And, um, I was at a con, um, giving a presentation, [00:21:30] and a member of the audience came up much like, you know, you said in your interview, um, a member of the audience came up and said, uh, you might be interested in this, and they held up a newspaper article, and it was about, um it was an article about two women who had, uh, got married in 1945 in Auckland and who were found out to be, um Well, they were found out later to be two women. Um, but at the time, one of them, um, was presenting as a man, and [00:22:00] this was Peter Williams. And, um uh, So there was a whole newspaper article, but I had only, um, a profile. Uh, in the profile was, uh, some details about, um, Peter some details about his wife, some details about their backgrounds, and that's it. Um, so that was about 1990 something, and it set, Um, I was busy. Um uh, I was working. Uh, I had some [00:22:30] very, um, involved jobs. So for six months, I'd be out of the frame, so to speak. Um, and then I'd come back to it and think, Oh, how can I find out? I'll never find out who these people are. Um, and then I started again, Probably in the early two thousands or something like that. So your two years was actually super quick and your multiple multiple, um, books, Uh, you know, pretty prolific. So, [00:23:00] um, so, uh, I I picked it up again at that point. Um and so I'm really gonna try and nail this. So, uh, with the profiles, um, I I had a date as well, so I knew roughly the date of their marriage. So, um, it was a very, um, detailed. Um, uh, trail through boo's, uh, deaths and marriages records, starting with a marriage record. Um, so the marriage was 1945 July. Uh, certain date. There was a profile [00:23:30] given of each of the people. Um, and those details were not correct. Um, so, uh, I went through I spent some many days in the archives going national archives, going through the, um, records of the time looking for a profile that was sort of in that area. Um, that matched a 30 year old and an 18 year old 45 Auckland, blah, blah. And, uh, I went back one night and I thought from yesterday's, um, analysis, [00:24:00] I think there's maybe could be about 10 or 20 possibilities. And I went back the next day, had another look, and then I thought, It's got to be this one. I don't know why I hadn't seen it the day before, but, you know, you get caught up with with, um, cross referencing as you mentioned, um, with, um, cross checking, Um and, uh, it's got to be that one. The reason I couldn't just go and get the records, um, in full was that it costs a lot of money for each. Each time you ask, it costs, you know? [00:24:30] So I couldn't just say, Oh, give me the 100 or so, Um um uh, full marriage certificates. Um, So finally I got I got several marriage certificates and there was the one, and I knew it was the right one, because across it handwritten was, um, the parties to this marriage with both females. And, uh, this record is not to be released or words to that effect. Put a copy there. So, um, with that, I knew I had the right people. [00:25:00] I still didn't have the right information. Um uh, but I took the next step. So looking, uh, trying to search. Who were the parents? Where did they come from? What Children? You know, who were the Children who were the siblings and so on. And then that led to another whole, um, mechanical, um, mathematical search through the birth records, um, and references to areas of New Zealand because I wasn't quite sure where which area of New Zealand they'd come from. So, um, anyway, [00:25:30] that's how I came to find out who the people were. Um, and one of the things in the paper intrigued me at the time. And the two women had declared to the police who interviewed them. Um, because what they did was illegal. You could not get married if you were two women at that time. Um, that, uh, they were both as they put it. Um of the lesbian type, so I thought Oh, OK, This is interesting. There's another angle. So, um, but I wasn't sure, but, uh, I needed [00:26:00] to find out more about the people. So, um um, I then trailed through um um, you know, the the background, the histories of the families and so on. Um, in the course of doing that, um, I think maybe we come to it later, Um, about what's left in and what's what's, uh, what's left out. Um, I had to fill in some gaps, Um, going through in terms of, um, uh, I didn't have all the details. [00:26:30] And as I say later, um, there's only one person who knows about their life, and that's the person themselves. And there's only one person who can say who they are and what they are, and that's that person themselves. So what we are doing are approximations about that person and approximations of their lives. But in doing that, my my purpose and coming back to what you were saying about really caring um, I do really care about the subject. My purpose and the people I've written about and found out about is I do really care. And I think, um it's amazing that, um um [00:27:00] Peter Williams, Iris, Florence Peter Williams lived, um, as he wanted to live. Um, all those years, um, in contrast to the prescriptions of the time and as they were supposed to have been as opposed to what he wanted to be, and he lived as he wanted to be. So, um, and that brings you back to looking at the context of the times. And why did the people make the choices they had to? And, uh, how did they survive in the ways they had to? Um [00:27:30] So maybe, um, um, a viewer looking now could look back and say, Oh, they performed a criminal act. They made They got married and pretended they were who they weren't or oh, they falsified a birth record. Um, which was the case for Peter, Um, to say that, uh, in this case, um, that he was born male when we we know that was not true. Uh oh. That's another criminal act. No, it isn't. There are acts of survival in [00:28:00] the face of, um, oppression and prescription. So, um, II I my regret is that I didn't get to meet Peter. Um, and I did meet, um, his first wife or spoke to his first wife and also his last partner. Um, but, uh, I think, uh, all of these, uh, aspects of New Zealand history and I just allude to the Dictionary of New Zealand biography, actually, which was a, um, a catalogue of, um, hundreds [00:28:30] of people, um, a government, um, objective. And, uh, it catalogues through the lives of individuals the histories of, you know, our our our location. Um, and I think through individual histories, we learn very much about, um, our world. So, um, a very brave man and a very brave woman in your case and a woman who was slightly elusive in some ways. Um, So let's talk about and and you can answer in any order, [00:29:00] uh, it doesn't have to go along the line. Um, what did you leave out? I mean, what did what do you include? And what do you leave out and how do you make those decisions? And are you influenced by, uh, in your case as the live person? If I may say, um uh when I spoke to, um, Peter's first wife. Um So she was the other person in the 1945 marriage. Um, not his first partner, but his first wife. Um, I said, um, I'd really like you to, you know, Would you contribute? [00:29:30] Would you be prepared to speak, um, about this? And she said no. Um, that's water under the bridge, which was a real shame. But I understand. Um, and, uh, I spoke also with, um, his first wife's, um, brother. And he gave me some information, which then, um, allowed me to fill in some more gaps. Um, and I also spoke to his last partner, And she, um, did not wish the book to [00:30:00] go ahead in the way that it was. Um, so we made some adjustments to it, and I've, um I've changed some names in the book. Um, so that, um the, uh, living people, uh, have some protection. And, uh, but the events in the book, uh, they did happen. They happened. They really happened. Um, we had to change some names. Not very many. And we didn't really have to take anything out of the finished manuscript. Um, we [00:30:30] had to leave out some of Liz's favourite stories because I think when you live a life as hard as she has lived, uh, you are left with a certain view of the world, um, which can come across as quite unsympathetic at times. Um, and I think it's important that your protagonist is sympathetic in, you know, in. Otherwise, readers will just put the book down. Um, that's not to say we falsified her story at all, [00:31:00] but there are a couple of stories that just didn't fit within the the book at all. I couldn't find a place for them, and Liz and I kind of had a couple of arguments about what? You know, whether that was OK, that it was left out, and in the end, she was fine with it. I would have liked to have told more about the surgeon that did her first surgery. But just like you, you just said about, um, Peter Williams' first wife. Was it, um, we contacted him and he was in a by the stage [00:31:30] in a rest home in Christchurch. He was a general surgeon in 19. Uh, no, I think he was. He'd just been for a short amount of time. Part of the Burwood plastic surgery, Um, team the team at Burwood Hospital in Christchurch. Um, in the quite early days of plastic surgery, and he agreed to do this surgery on a man, um, that nobody had ever heard of in New Zealand before He'd read about it in a, um, [00:32:00] medical journal article. And that was it. That was the extent of his knowledge. And at the time he said to her that he would not, Um I will not make you a vagina, Elizabeth, because I will not play God and, um, high status to give a vagina. I'm pleased. I think he's got it. So, um, but he did agree to make her look like a woman on the [00:32:30] outside, and he didn't really know what he was doing. Um, fast forward to to us contacting him. And he he used to even acknowledge I mean, he admitted that, yes, he was the Tom Milliken that had carried out the surgery, but he said, That's another lifetime. Um, I'm not that person anymore, and I don't wish to to speak about it at all. And he just died just a couple of months ago, actually, um, I, I really would have liked [00:33:00] to have got inside his head and and had his memories of the extraordinary thing that he he did and they had to hide it, you know, they booked her into hospital and he did the surgery and they had to hide it from all the nurses. And nobody was to know that you know what the surgery that they were doing. And luckily, by chance, um, Neil Armstrong was stepping out onto the surface of the moon that day, so everybody was rather distracted, and they managed to kind of flip it through [00:33:30] without, um, without anybody realising, except for the nurse that was looking after Liz in the ward, who was just brutal to her because she was she was so disapproving that that, well, she I think they did it in the I'm just sorting through because there was. There's lots of surgery in the book. Um, and I think it happened in the women's Well. She was in a women's ward and the nurse, the matron, was extremely disapproving, and the nurses treated her very badly, Um, to the point where they moved her to another [00:34:00] ward where they were a bit nicer. But you know, they would leave her. You know, she was completely bandaged from here to here. Um, and they had They took us, you know, a large amount of skin from her thigh to try and construct this, um, this genitalia and, uh, she so she couldn't move, and they would. The nurses would put her food, her breakfast on the, you know, on the trolley and then wheeled the trolley out of reach, you know, and stuff like that. Um, so, [00:34:30] uh, you know, nevertheless, they managed to get this this extraordinary surgery through without anybody noticing. And she was, you know, booked into the hospital under a false name. And she's a the the whole surgical, her surgical arc. Um, and as I said, there is a lot of it in the book. Is, um, is really not so much a story of operations, but a story of her incredible persuasiveness. She persuaded GPS and psychologists and surgeons, you know, through a 30 year period [00:35:00] to do stuff that they would never have considered doing had she not been so persuasive. So that, to me, is not so much a story of her being cut up, but a story of her being able to talk people into doing shit. It was amazing to me, just in, um, in, uh, Peter Peter Williams' case. Um, she had a double mastectomy in the 19 and around 1933. And, um, so she also had, uh, persuaded someone to [00:35:30] perform that surgery. And, um uh, and I I saw a reference, uh, in paper in 1936 saying that those operations had been performed. Such operations have been performed in in this country. So the question is like, Who was doing these operations? Um, but when, um uh, in 1945 when she was first, um, exposed to the media, Um, the response of the public sort of supporting what you're saying there is that, [00:36:00] uh, not the public, but the the legal system. The judge was that, um, who has done this surgery. This was done for no medical reason. Who has, you know, been playing God who's done this? This They should be reported to the medical council and so on. So that's part of the reason they would have to keep undercover. Yeah. So for her to have, um, um, managed to get that, uh surgery was incredible, carving a really significant path, weren't they? For for the young people. Now for that For that young [00:36:30] man who spoke last night? You know, it's it's amazing that this was all happening then, so long ago. Now it was a bit different in your no operations. In my case. Sorry I did. I did get the street in this car, but I did get the feeling there was a bit of secrecy around, Uh, I mean, obviously a highly successful high profile crime writer, but a little bit of secrecy around her personal life. Well, I think, um, I, I think, in a way, what if I could just [00:37:00] frame this a little bit with, um being a biographer and and moving from dead subjects to live subjects because that was an interesting transition. I found, um because you you feel like you can write more about someone who's dead or you think you can, um, that's what you think you can do. Um, but in actual fact, there's always relations. There's always issues, um, around things. So you're always dealing with people who have a an investment in [00:37:30] that story. So you you you no, story has no investment. If if it's if it doesn't have an investment, it's probably a story not worth telling. So you've got all these interest groups and maybe there's there's not not necessarily any less interest groups for a dead person, if you know what I mean. Because Francis Hodgkins I mean, I got so much hell from writing that book at times from people who who had very fixed views on it. So I I almost got [00:38:00] more, more more hassle from that than than Anne Perry. Um, but but essentially, um I I went into, uh, Anne Perry thinking that that that, um, I might have to pull at least pull a few punches and not, um, you know, um perhaps not be so, um in interrogating. But in actual fact, when I when I came to the story when I talked to her, I think my old, um, [00:38:30] kind of modus operandi of you you care. But at the at the end of this, at the end of the day, you have to be absolutely true to yourself as well as a writer, because there is an integrity and a core integrity to doing that. That If you lose, then you lose everything. Because in a in a way, belief in a writer is something that people have to have. So they they have to. And if you lose that, then you've [00:39:00] lost everything. So So I cared. But essentially I had to make a true story. And the funny thing is, I wrote this proposal about a woman I had me yet and and I was going to be able to test my proposal against the real thing. So in July I met her in London and I realised that if I didn't like her, I couldn't write the book. And I and I don't mean like her. I don't mean God, I feel, you know, But if I couldn't respect her, if there was something that I found there in that room I [00:39:30] had the proposal I I had. I spent the money to go there II. I had everything, you know, I beat Oprah Winfrey to it, But, you know, I realise essentially that you cannot write a story that isn't true, isn't true to the subject and isn't most of all true to you, you care. But there's an intrinsic that that that is, is your your reputation? I guess that's about authorship, isn't it? It's ultimately you are what? As good as your word, You're only ever as good [00:40:00] as your word. So So in in a way, I had to. The big scary thing for me was was this woman gonna be as as interesting and as worthy as I hoped she would be? Because I knew I would have to leave that room and shut the project up and go and do something else. And I And that was the amazing thing when I met her. It was a very scary experience. She's incredibly well dressed, very sort of, you know, dapper in a way, you know, and and formidable and [00:40:30] scary and and I. I sat there and I gaped for the first time in my life, gaped like a goldfish. I had no words to say I. I had nothing to say. So I mean so So we had to kind of get over that and get around that. And I just took this drill. You know how you sit outside yourself and say, Did I really say that rubbish? You know, But did was that me and you know, she and she couldn't even work it out. I don't think you know. So eventually, we we ended up holding hands, which is a very strange thing to do in the first interview. But it was. [00:41:00] But but But what? I said, I said I was talking about my my you know, my like, my tribe, which I think is probably Vikings rape and pillage or no sex and travel. Um, so sorry. Sorry. So So, uh so I, um you know, So I said that, you know, I, I I'm a Viking, and she goes, How do you know that? And I said, Well, I've got this syndrome. That's very interesting syndrome. I'm getting medical now. Um, So anyway, it's two seconds. Uh, so I So it's in your part? Well, mine is in [00:41:30] the palm of my hand, but you can get at all kinds of places. We won't mention some of the other ones. Um, so she said Oh, do am I a Viking? She said, because she uh So I've held her hands, and I and II, I like I. I was very medical about this. Like I was, I gave her an absolutely good, I think. Complete result there. No I. I see. I can't see anything. I said I'll have to have a look at the other one. So I mean, [00:42:00] these are the things that you don't tell those. So that that kind of interaction those lovely moments and and that sort of quest that you start on that really at the core of it. Um, if you haven't got a worthwhile person that you can respect I, I really respect authors that can write about someone they hate. I mean, I. I know. Someone wrote a book about Radcliff Hall, and I think she, uh you probably know you. I'm sure you read it. III I ended up hating the writer more than I ended up hating Radcliff Hall because [00:42:30] I thought, if you if you can't see anything good in this woman, why did you write this book? But, you know, I guess it had to be written, but so essentially, I think, um, nothing much, um, ended up on the floor. That should have been in the book. That's what I would say. Um, Anne Perry never read it. She she didn't read it, so she she didn't audit it or, you know, they they you know, this is an authorised which, actually, I authorised this book. I wrote it, um, and [00:43:00] Anne Perry didn't read it. So, um, so her agent read it and she said, Oh, I think there's a bit about the BBC there That's a bit problematic. So we cut out a couple of paragraphs and the the the audit the, um, the auditor that the the the legal auditor, uh, withdrew soften some of the things I said along the way, not about Anne Perry, but about other people, because because they didn't want to be sued. And, uh, that they were not nasty. But, you know, um, so there was I mean, I didn't. That book [00:43:30] is what is is my true, um, assessment of here. Um and and you do make that sort of, uh, kind of big global decision about some things that can sit on the floor. And you always have the reasons why and you keep the idea. What's the main idea of the of your work? What's the main idea of the work? What's the main idea that you're trying to say here and does it matter if you leave that there, does it matter if you keep it? As I said that a few times [00:44:00] to Liz when she was insisting that certain bits go in bits that didn't fit, Um, saying you need to step back and look at the your whole life story and what which you know, and does that really matter when we're telling this is the story we're telling. I always have. I always have this, um, rule of thumb, right? This is my rule of thumb because you kind of got to do that when you Because when you live a very busy life, you've got to you've got to have some basic basic ground [00:44:30] rules And I always think, Can I sit in the room beside that person and feel OK about what I've written? And if it's someone who's historic If they were there today in today's mindset in this today's world, would they feel comfortable with the way they've been portrayed? And do you know it happened to me? It finally happened to me. Everybody who else was dead. Finally, I sat in a room with Anne Perry with the book between us in Vancouver at a literary festival [00:45:00] with 500 people out in the dark. And and the woman said to me, she was sitting on the far side and Perry is there and I'm standing sitting there and then this this vast audience and she said to me, So what do you did you learn about the from the murder and I and there's Dan Perry sitting next door to me, and I know once again I mean, I had to collect my thoughts rather quickly. But I felt comfortable. I actually felt comfortable. I still felt comfortable. I felt I'd done justice to the work, [00:45:30] to the work, to the book and to the story that one of the things I think myself and a lot of people have wondered about the fact that this, as a woman, as a 16 year old, performed this gruesome murder and then made a career out of writing crime stories. I mean, that is extraordinary. And so that is something that a lot of us have wondered about. OK, Ok, OK, right. 15. She was 15. The other one was 16. Yeah, but that's still here, isn't it? Um uh, Ok, um the thing is that she had written [00:46:00] countless books and they were They were sort of rubbishy because they they she's a great She's a great writer, but she has no sense of of shape. And the thing about the the murder mystery is it's one of those very successful kind of books, books, uh, genre books, that that has a shape and and so you Can you you know, I mean that. That's why I like writing biography because it's like there's a beginning and an end or usually there is, um, so most of mine had a beginning and an end like you're born and you die. Wow. [00:46:30] Um, so you know, that's your shape. And you got an arc in between and some people did a few things, and you write it down quite quite easy. But the other good shape is the detective fiction, because it gives you that perfect formula to to kind of the arc, the, you know, the exposition, the development that they knew more. Everything's wound up for people. People are happy, you know, and they go away and they go and buy the next one. Uh, so it essentially, she wrote all this. These rubbish books with no end in all kind of descriptive and interesting characters. But nothing ever [00:47:00] happened. And a lot of them were, you know, like, said that I think the Inquisition was one of the catchy, um uh, subjects. And then she had historical ones that were really hideous. And so finally, um, you know, her her, um her stepfather actually said, Why don't you write a murder mystery and instantly was published? She was 39. She'd been writing for 10 years, so I mean, she she The thing is, they do say, write, write about what? You know, [00:47:30] But But I think I actually do think that's true in her case because because she she actually knows what it's like to do something terrible and to spend a lifetime regretting it. She must be almost unique. Oh, I think she is. III. I think pretty much I think there may have been someone you know, But there there may have been a few that we haven't found the bodies yet, but I mean, a few authors have disposed of people. We haven't found any mine yet, but, um, so I think, [00:48:00] uh, yes, I think she's very unusual I and and I think I think it was a desperate thing. But but you But she does sit there in a very intense way, and she she sits there and reels out this complex plot. And you think, How can you keep that in your head? And why would you bother? But then she writes it up, and it's fantastic and really her her and she has this core value of Christianity which goes through her books. And it's been the redemptive thing [00:48:30] for her and Pauline that they, um, that they have been able to find some way of structuring their belief or their spirituality or their their existence in the world, and understand the the inexplicable. Really? Because how do you ever I she can't even now really tell you why or how, or or even to some extent, how it happened? Because, um, because, uh, she spent 60 years forgetting it, and at the [00:49:00] core of her being, I think she can never forget it and never entirely put that out of her consciousness. I I for a long time. Every time we talked, after the book came out, she would start talking about you know it would come up, You know, the the murder, it would always come up. And so I said to my partner, Oh, do you think I should just say, Look, the book's gone. We can be friends now. You don't have to talk about, you know, you don't need to mention those things. And in in a way, I think in the end I didn't I didn't [00:49:30] do because I because I mean, she meant so much more to me than just that. Now you know, and and but But in a way, I think it's I was just the only person that she could talk to. I was safe, and I was the one person that I read that that from New Zealand, that that knew the New Zealand of it knew the New Zealand story because she said to me, I'm a New Zealander because she said my formative years, all my formative years were in New Zealand and it was a weird thing because when I when I met her, that was once [00:50:00] I relaxed and she relaxed and we got over the Viking thing. Um, she was she was a um you're probably a Viking um I don't know what that means. Sex and travel. Um, but, you know, once we got over there, um, I think, Yeah, it was, I guess. Yeah, we we just became friends and associates, and and, um and she did tell [00:50:30] me about it. But as much as she she knew, and we could finally Yes. Yes, we're, um Yeah, we We have a quite a complicated relationship. Liz has no electronic anything. So she has, you know, her post box and the telephone and the landline. And that is it. Which I find really difficult. Um, because I don't answer the phone. I don't. You know, I do all all my communication [00:51:00] apart from with my family and my partner and my workmates is electronic. Um, So she Yeah. Liz phones me. Uh, sometimes every day. Um, and sometimes I don't answer for three days, because I I've got another, you know, and I. I can't. I've helped Liz. It's complicated because Liz is a pensioner and she lives in a in a, um, housing New Zealand house. And she has no money. Um, she has no car. [00:51:30] She has no email. Nothing. Um, and she has a What she has is a lot of dignity and a great sense of self and a wonderful sense of humour. But she has the kind of issues that poor people have. So when she lived in Auckland, um, if she needed to go, Briscoe's I would drive her to Briscoe's. Or I would take her to the doctor or, um, uh, one of her. Her other dear friends. Um, drive will drive her to the airport because she used to have to. It's so ridiculous. [00:52:00] Um, when she lived in Auckland, which is until reasonably recently, um, she would have to fly to Christchurch every three weeks to see her, uh, gynaecological specialist, you know, and she would have to pay for those flights out of her pension. Just insane. Um, so she she you know, she has needed me in that sense. Um, she now lives in Christchurch, and I don't see her, obviously, but I still we still speak, um, very regularly. And at the moment we're speaking about, um, [00:52:30] there's a A three companies competing to make the book into a television feature film. So the moment we're speaking about that, which is a whole another random because there's no money in it. And for Liz, that's it's not a problem for me, because I didn't do the book for money or anything like that. But for Liz, that's a really real problem. You know. She's gonna sell her the rights to her story, um, for other people to make money of it. She wants to make some dough, too. So it's a tricky one. [00:53:00] Questions. We've only got a few minutes left. Questions. Um, you're lucky enough to have the the, um, communications, you know, with with Liz. And you also with Anne Perry. Um, I was, uh I had only a snippet, but I did have something from Peter himself who was interviewed, um, and by the newspaper at the time. And so there's, uh, like a little body of, um, words from him. And I'd just like to say that, um, the title [00:53:30] of my book, um, is from Peter. And, uh, when he was questioned about his life and what he was doing and how come he married this woman? Um, he said, uh, he said a number of things, but he also said, um, I am perfectly natural. So for me, that was the I was thinking. What's the title? Of course. His words. So there was a question here. I just wanted to ask, um, anything in the process of your book [00:54:00] sales. Yes, Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. Um, but we Yeah, we have so many copies. So there's not It hasn't got into reprint or anything. So we divided the, uh, the the advance 50 50. Yeah. Um, so it's not really about. And that was at her insistence. I probably would have given it all to her because she needs it. Um, but she she was a very proud person and a very, you know, dignified person. So she insisted we [00:54:30] split it down the middle. Mm. Yes. The general question on writing about transgender. I speak to a few transgender people, and they seem to feel that there's a focus on this side of of a person story. Um, just wondering what what anybody thought about that doesn't get in the way of their other other side of this story. Um, can I answer that first, um, I the focus. The kind [00:55:00] of hook for for Liza's story is naturally the fact that because she was the first, um, that that forms a, uh, an important part of the story. But what I would like everybody who's considering buying the book to know is that that's by no means all of the story. Um, she had the most, and I didn't know this before I sat down to interview her. She had the most extraordinary life. She was a, um, a makeup artist to Twiggy and, um and you know, Catherine Deneuve in. She worked for David [00:55:30] Bailey as a makeup artist in the swing in London and the swinging sixties. She had a collection of clothing and Harrods. Um, you know, she she was responsible for the transition from for makeup from for black and white to colour TV in New Zealand, you know, she's had the most extraordinary life. Um, and it makes great reading quite apart from the surgical, but, um, the the surgery was important, but and I, I had this idea really early on as to [00:56:00] to how I wanted to write that chapter. It's completely different from the rest of the book. Um, and luckily for me, Liz has kept all of her medical records and all of the the you know, What do you call that? Carbon paper. Copies of the original type written letters between her doctors. So this the the chapter about her surgery is written completely differently. It is the letters between the GP to the psychologist to the surgeon back to the GP. Um, you know, and it says, [00:56:30] you know, um, thank you for referring, um, this woman to this person to see me. I am astounded at how feminine she or he appears, you know, And it's It's the language of the 19 sixties, and it's extraordinary to read it as it was written by the people. Um, I'm particularly proud of that chapter. I hope it works in the book. I know nobody has spoken to me directly about it, but, um, I didn't want the surgery to be the whole to be all it is. [00:57:00] But I think in a historical, I understand modern concerns like that. But I think this is a history, you know, the the book I wrote is about New Zealand's history of this kind of of surgery and and therefore I couldn't possibly ignore it. It's kind of the point to the book, so that's just you know the context, the context. Otherwise you don't understand very much of its time. I mean, Liz's books. [00:57:30] There are no modern sensibilities about, um, transgender in her book the confusion of the legal system and the fact that you know the chapter that tells the of her journey to the High Court to fight the the Ministry of Justice. Um, tells you a lot about the prejudices of the time. Yeah, So it it it it's time to finish. I want to thank these three wonderful women and the wonderful story. [00:58:00] I'm taking them straight to the signing table. So if you want to talk to them, come and talk to them there, OK?
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