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So I'm here with Roger Swanson, um, to talk about what is right. Well, las is the lesbian and gay archives of New Zealand. Um, and it's a collection or number of collections of material about gay lesbian, um, transgendered, um intersex, um, the whole quer community. Really? Um, and our aim is basically to collect and preserve for the future, um, [00:00:30] so that people can research. And, um, who are interested in their own history. Um, we have a place to collect it because we feel that as a sort of minority groups on the edge of societies, society is not really interested in our histories. Um, they don't collect them. Um, and certainly, if you go into your local library, it's a lot better. Now you'll find, um, gay and lesbian books and stuff. But 20 years ago, there was nothing really, um, other than some stuff [00:01:00] about how sick and how dreadful we all were. And there may have been some books on scandals and Oscar Wilde and some historical things, but they're all told from a very, you know, shock horror point of view. Um, they weren't told from our own own view and our own insights. So, um, the archive is is, you know, when it started in 2025 years ago, Um, that was the, um, premise that we collect our own material so we could tell [00:01:30] our own story. And, um, and things, like a lot of newsletters, um, magazines, um, books, um, radio programmes that started being produced. No one else is keeping them. So, um, we're keeping them so And we're keeping them for anybody who wants to look at them or research or do some do some research. How did it come about? You said that? You know, I guess mainstream wasn't collecting any of our stuff. Who decided? Well, it started really. With the campaign [00:02:00] for quality and legal recognition of our relationships. Um, back in the 19 seventies, um, there was a group called the National, um, gay rights Coalition. Um, that formed and they had a resource. And so they started collecting material for the campaigns. Basically, um, information reports, um, New Zealand overseas, anything that would help them with the campaign and that started building up a collection of material. [00:02:30] Um, and so, um, that was being one of the members of the task force that was, um, doing this work was a librarian, so I wanted to gather so naturally thought, Well, we'll keep this material and put it in order so people can find it. That's what librarians do. It's very boring, but very boring. But, you know, um, it's very helpful if you want to find something, and it's been indexed or catalogued or put in some sort of order that you can actually, rather than just a mix of papers in a box. You know, you [00:03:00] all know that, Um, So, um, that's how we store our own stuff. I speak, Um, so when you got to go back to find it, that's, you know, and of course, say we're doing campaigning, um, petitioning politicians or talking to politicians. Um, um, getting petitions, getting all sorts of things, Um, And so, uh, for political reform. And so they needed information. Good. Reliable. Um, you know, um, there was the AIDS epidemic. Came up in the early eighties. Um, [00:03:30] there were other. Um there were all sorts of other things. So you needed to be able to give statistics and be able to say No, no, no. The real story is blah blah, blah. And how many people are supporting gay rights in New Zealand is a 10% or 100% or, you know, somewhere in between. So they really have that sort of, you know, vital information so you could punch it out and say, you know, can counteracting the publicity negative publicity that came out. So, um, that all accumulate accumulated or accumulated into the great um campaign of 1985 [00:04:00] 86 with the law reform campaign, Um, led by Fran Wild at Parliament and by, um, a whole task force of gay and lesbian people throughout the country. Um and so the resource centre was really a powerhouse behind that and provided anyone who was speaking with information, um, helped them find out facts, um, gathered up anything that was being produced at the time. Um, they also produced, I think, some booklets refuting some of the arguments being put out, and so they were quite active, very [00:04:30] involved, very campaign orientated group. And so the archive grew, and that and then, um and once the campaign was sort of over, the archive existed. But the campaign, you know, people we went there in various ways. And so the archive continued as a as in its own right, because people recognise it as a valuable collection of material. Um, and it contained, um, the papers of meetings of, say, the homosexual law Reform Society, the gay task [00:05:00] force. Um, the new the aid support networks that started up, um, a few years before, um, law reform. Um, and so people and people were gathering books and various things like that. So they were all there. And like I said, there was a librarian looking after it who catalogued and put it all in order and had it, um, very nicely put together. And so there was a So there was that the resource was there. Um, just after the campaign ended in 86 there was an arson attack on the resource centre. The resource centre used to be [00:05:30] in Bocock Street, originally down in the basement there, and then it moved up to the second floor. Um, and there was an arson attack one night. Um, and some guys came in and saw what it was. And so I started lighting fires. Um, but they fortunately were a bit stupid, as these people usually are, um, they didn't do a very good job. Thank goodness. Um, so and the fire brigade were really amazing. They came in and and didn't really start tossing water everywhere. They saw what it was and and used, um, dry, um, [00:06:00] dry material to put the fire out. Um, and those little fires scattered around there was quite a bit of smoke damage. Some papers were destroyed that were out being used, but most of the material was either in filing cabinets, which made them sort of safe. And, um, material on bookshelves amazingly gets singed around the edge, but didn't catch fire. So, um, the collection was sort of, you know, smoke and covered in a bit of dust and stuff, Um, but mainly survived. [00:06:30] Um, And so it was rescued by the Alexander Turnbull library who stepped in and said we will offer you space to, um, to dry the collection out to, um, do work on it. So it quite a big deal for them to offer that, um it was actually I think, um, but they were very sort of part of the Turnbull library. Um, ethos and the way they work, um, they would certainly do it any. You know, Any collections around, librarian? [00:07:00] Bit like what happening in Christchurch at the moment. People, you know, help. Friends? Yeah, we together. So that, um, happened and they collections were removed and taken down to Courtney Place where, um, Turnbull library at that stage. Had some storage space and were, um, spread out and cleared and and dried and? And what? Um, conservation work needed done on them Done on them. Um, so they were sort of in that state, so the archive wasn't accessible, but it was, um, in a secure location. And, [00:07:30] um, safety, of course, was important. Since it had been attacked, had it been targeted or was it was I think it was sort of some guys got into the building, um, and they discovered came across it. It may have been targeted, but it didn't quite seem that way. I think it was they just a couple of stupid guys who saw, um, you know, gay stuff. So you know, um, anyway, so they, um I don't think they were ever caught or anything, but, um, the collection was saved. [00:08:00] And then because the Turnbull been involved with the the trustees. There was a small group of people involved with the archive at that stage. Um, that's what I was involved with at that back then, um, and a number of other paid people around Wellington. And so, um, and we negotiated with the Turnbull library, um, who was key to preserve the collection as well? Because they saw it as a valuable collection and particularly because the law the, um the um 85 86 campaign [00:08:30] had generated a lot of material and really interesting material for research. Um, various attitudes and, you know, just the people involved, um, and the significant change it it it made to to gay lesbian lives. At that time. Um, it was a really valuable research collection, so they were keen to have it within the library. So the gay community, um, through through various, um, people around, um, involved in various community groups agreed that it could be lodged at the Turnbull [00:09:00] Library, but is but is still owned by the gay community. So the collection is still and that's for the agreement. That was, um, agreed with with the chief librarian of the Turnbull Library that the collection would be housed at the Turnbull. Um, would be, um, would be made accessible. So on Turnbull premises, the reading rooms, et cetera. People could use those, um, it would be staffed, um, and accessed by curators who were, um, from the gay community. Gay lesbian community. Um, and [00:09:30] as they happened to be staff members of the Turnbull, that was probably a good, you know, reason why it actually happened this way. Because, um, they the library had confidence in its staff, and, um and it was also seen a win win situation where the library got a very nice collection of a community that's really hard to find information all about, um and, um, And And they had dedicated staff with it. Plus so and then the community had a safe place to keep material. And so and so future [00:10:00] donations would be known to be safe. They wouldn't be at risk of being destroyed or anything like that. So, yes. So a very valuable collection was, um, um house in the Turnbull collect library. Um, preserved, um, but available to the gay and lesbian community as they require. Needed it. And so, over the years, um, quite a few people have donated their own personal papers. Um, organisations have donated their papers because most gay and lesbian organisations are voluntary. [00:10:30] And, you know, if you've ever been involved in any of these, there's always, you know, it's it's a bit quite hard to get people to take minutes of meetings, but, um, if they do and the accounts and all that sort of stuff, they'd be kept somewhere and they're usually under a bed. And someone shared, you know, um, all that sort of stuff and they get lost and the secretary moves to up to Wellington up to Auckland to Sydney, whatever. And so the paper, there's a great risk of these even never surviving. Um, so we're very lucky that, um over [00:11:00] the years, various people said, Well, I can't store these anymore or you know what I'm gonna do with all this junk which I've gathered And so we are a good junk. We take in the junk which we think is very valuable and often it turns out because often those secretaries to, um, they've been secret to in the days of gay liberation, way back in the seventies, they had some minutes of the meeting a few newsletters and things. And that's what survives of that group. Um, other than people's memories. And so we've got those. And some often newsletters went lasted [00:11:30] for 5, 10 years. We've got those, and they don't. You know, no one else keeps them because they're not substantial enough. But as a as a gatherer group, they are very useful for anyone researching life and rural Auckland or wherever down south. Um, what gay and lesbian groups were existing, what people thought at the time, Um and what were the issues they were dealing with? So I think, you know, um, so over time we've got quite substantial collections and some of the bigger organisations such as the New Zealand [00:12:00] Age Foundation, deposit their papers with us. Um, and records. There is, um, all the the homosexual law Reform um, group, which existed for about 20 years. So there's their material, um, a lot of like I said, a lot of the gay liberation groups. Um, there's some social groups. The Dorian Society. Um I think there's some There's some lesbian groups, uh, their paper Amazon, um, sports team, you know, So there's quite a range of material And we got some material [00:12:30] from Mika, the performer. And we had her shoes and dresses one stage. But we managed to decided they weren't quite what we needed to preserve. But we've got samples of some of that material. It's mainly paper, paper, But we have got radio programmes. No, we we we I mean, I would love to have, you know, the the more side of things. And we did try to persuade Papa that they would like to have an archive this, but they were just interested in various just one off bits rather [00:13:00] than a complete archive. Um, but we do have, you know, radio programmes. So the lesbian radio is, um we've got, um, discs from that, um gay BC Wellington. Christchurch, I think. And some Auckland programmes. Um, which go on. You know, week after week after week, they mount up quite a considerable amount of programming. Um, and so some of those we started, um, transferring. And often they're just on cassettes. So we've started transferring those on into digital forms. Um, we've done quite a bit of that with [00:13:30] the, um, law reform material that was recorded at the time transferred. It into digital format. We also have some film material from the law reform period. Um, that has never been screened. Um, but with this is the raw material that's never been turned into a film. So we've had that digitised as well for preservation because it was was not really accessible in this, its original state. Um, so we have film, and we have, um, sound. We have paper, we have photographs. That's the other area. [00:14:00] Um, we got a lot of the photographs from various people's collections. Um, um, we've got some private collections of, you know, people's personal photographs of their their day to day lives. We've got some who have been, um, Semiprofessional professional photographers who at law reform time, went around taking photos or at other events, gay and lesbian events. So we've got quite a wide range of that. So the formats vary. We've got posters, um, a lot of posters. So about I think about 6 700 posters of, um you name [00:14:30] it dances, political or social, whatever we can get. Um, and they are really a nice collection. Um, and we've got buttons and badges and all those sort of bit of fera type stuff that people have put out over the years. Um, so they've been really, you know, it's a really nice collection, particularly for display if you're having an exhibition. And we've had a number over the years of material from the collections because that's another way to promote it. Um, we've had a one in the National Library Gallery, [00:15:00] which was 20 years of law reform, um, and covered that whole period up to 1986. Um, so there was various attempts in the seventies and sixties at changing the law in New Zealand. So that was a, um, a sort of landmark exhibition we had there. But we've had various photo displays around the different and things like that. So, um, so you know, the more variety of materials you got t-shirts, that type of thing. Um, we can get get some of those, um, and [00:15:30] and a few videos and DVD S, depending on what the material is. So you've been involved for many, many years with Do you have favourite pieces or what? What do you get out of? You? Just really like organising things. Um, I like what I like. I mean, I I like the idea that the material is being preserved. Um, I was for a while, one of the curators and had quite a lot of hands on stuff. Now I'm a trustee on the board. The the leg ends is run by a is managed by a trust [00:16:00] trust as a as a charitable trust and registered. Um, And we have, um, a number of board member, um, who who manage the service. And we have curators who provide the access, and that's sort of the structure. Um, and I was a curator for a number of years, um, helping out. And it was I mean, I just really enjoyed looking at the material. It was interesting. Um, it was great seeing that it was being preserved. And I and my librarian role is basically in the libraries as I've been on the access side. So on the front desk. And so I enjoy [00:16:30] working with people looking for information. And so that was just another aspect of my my career. Um, and I really enjoyed that sort of work. Um, and so you know, So it's putting, you know, a private interest, which is the gay gay side of my life, Um, together with the, um, my work, which is librarianship and, um, on on in the public, people inquiring and looking for material. So that's that's really my interests were, um And of course, quite a few of my friends were involved with the archive [00:17:00] at the time, so that was really nice. And it was, you know, um, a nice social thing as well. So I have a real or especially archive, have a real reputation or maybe a stereotype. I don't know for being really organised. Does that mean that your meetings go really easily? Not really. No, we certainly we do take minutes and we do keep the minutes and make sure that we're a bit formal about that, that sort of thing. Is there a big fight for who wants to take the minutes and things like that? No, no. I'm a secretary for the [00:17:30] for the board at the moment. And it's job to do that. Um, that's not a problem. Um, what? Well, I mean, most of the the board itself consists of a number of gay and lesbian men and women who are from outside of the library. Um, and So, um, we have two Maori from, um who are in a group, which is a recent development of getting connections with that group. Um, and because that's one of the outreaches we want to improve aspects of the collection. [00:18:00] Want a larger Maori component or to to see, you know, um, what is, um, around for that would be of interest to the collection. And would the collection be interest to Maori researchers as well? Um, we are particularly. We have one Pacific island person on the group. Um, we have, um I think 34 lesbians on the group, um, who have been involved in in in their communities for a long, long time. Um, and, um, and about three or four gay men on the group. [00:18:30] So it's sort of, um So we're trying to reflect the interests of the gay lesbian community. Um, queer community, um, as much as possible, but we're really quite conscious that we're all getting rather old. We're all sort of, you know, older generation. And there's a whole new generation of young, gay, lesbian whatever people generation of young Liberians. Um I don't know. I think I think there are I mean, we We We, um We hang on to our jobs very securely here, Um, and don't let them go. So [00:19:00] we're a bit, um So there there are, But there are certainly are out there. And, um so is that one of the challenges to to try and attract younger people? I think so, Um, it is interesting that, um, someone made a comment that young people don't really know their past and think What What today is, is how it's always been. And we do have, um, the students from Victoria University come down, um, the, um, the Women's studies group. Um, part of this is gender studies, and they use the archive. Um, [00:19:30] and often, they are quite shocked at the at the, you know, the law reform thing, which was 20 years ago. And either, you know, 25 years ago, which is before they were born, or when they were tiny little kids and, you know, didn't really know it wasn't their thing. Not that long ago. No, no, it's not that long ago, but they know nothing. And, um and they're quite shocked at the attitudes. I mean, the civil union was our recent most recent public spat, I suppose, and fight and the same attitudes came out [00:20:00] there. It was it was almost like how these people hadn't gone away. They were still lurking in the woods and they came out and saying the same horrible things. But fortunately, you know, New Zealand is generally pretty fair minded. They could just see how well I learned nonsense. And they had seen that the world hadn't collapsed with law. Reform happened, Um, and back in 1986 and the world hasn't fallen in and, you know, civilization and their kids were being raped. All that sort of stuff, [00:20:30] all that nonsense that these these, um, fringe extreme groups, um, come out with and it's the only time they get heard of. So it's probably the only time, you know, gives them an excuse to say something. Get the public. So, um so But, you know, that is a worry that, you know, um, people, if they take the current situation for granted and think, Oh, this is how it has always been, and we don't have to do anything. Gradually, their their civil rights, their freedoms will be eroded, and they will, and they'll be subject [00:21:00] to any whim and any you know of who gets into Parliament and what the flavour of the day is. And if it happens, it turns to be anti gay or we all have to be the same or straight or something. Then I think, you know, there are people have to stand up and say No. We are a multicultural society of a diverse nature, some gay, some straight, some intersect. You know, there's a whole variety of of sexualities out there, Um, which I think is probably one of the the recent learnings of people that it's [00:21:30] not just gay and lesbian, but there's a whole variety. And I suspect young people reflect that more now and don't actually just go into the boxes of Gay and Les Butch and them and all these sort of things that very, very strange when you look back, um, people fighting over in the gay community particularly over, you know, um, whether you were a dress or not. And you know, should you, you know, had you be out and you know, all this stuff. Um but I think young people had a whole variety. They still face a lot of pressures [00:22:00] at school or bullying and, um and, um, sort of violent sort of areas. And there's the family is quite a dangerous area, even though it's supposed to be supportive. Um, it can be quite, um, quite dangerous for young gays, lesbians and transgender kids. So, um, they need safe places. Um, and I think a strong community which can help support, um um is really necessary. Still, you know, we can't sort of pretend everything's fine and pack [00:22:30] up and go away. So it's so kind of acts as a I guess, a history holder memo. Keeping our memory alive and and the memory is really important because of, um, I mean, I think you just look at the Maori community and the Treaty of Waitangi. And if the Maori hadn't kept the treaty of alive as a memory, they were a little vanished. I mean, the whole I mean, the reason that, um, they are having settlements and, um, getting their some of their land back and getting the resources back [00:23:00] and getting their communities back together is because of their memory. And I think you know, they've remembered the treaty. They haven't let it Go get some which is now over at national Archives being looked after. And, um and, um, you know, and it is very impressive, um, looking document. And, um, But what it says is that we are a society that, you know, uh, based on a on A on an agreement. And if we if one side forgets that agreement and pretends it doesn't happen, then, um, we're in trouble. And so, um, so [00:23:30] I think, you know, for So the gay and lesbian community need to keep their memory alive, Not in a sort of room of the good old days of the war sort of thing. But, you know, um, you can sort of get stuck in that room, but really looking for opportunities to celebrate our community. Uh, its diversity. Um, So you have, um, exhibitions. So how do you kind of get how do people find out? I guess all young people in particular. Maybe you find out about it. Just students from which we do a wee bit of advertising. We've got a website. [00:24:00] Um, we do need more outreach. We're quite conscious of that. Like, we've got the, um, out games coming up next year, Um, we will be running a conference as part of that out games. And so it's a really good opportunity for the archive to, um, we'll be having so, um, telling our stories basically, sessions, um, as part of the conference, which should be really exciting. Um, we will have. So we've we've published a couple of books on on on from conferences that we've had in the past. [00:24:30] Um, so they are available if people want to, um, buy them. Um So the conference of the art games will be really important as an outreach for us. Remind Wellington yet again that we exist. And, um, also to to interact with the international community when they arrive in Wellington. And, um, you know, are attending this fabulous art games that's going to be here. So yes, that's but, you know, I could get in contact with, um, young people is really difficult. [00:25:00] Um, so if I was, you talked a little bit. I guess about accessibility and quite a lot of the stuff that's in in the archives. If I was a young person or if I was part of a youth group or something, how would I would I bowl on in or what might be really interested in looking at the moment. The archives, in a bit of a strange situation because National Library Building is being redeveloped in Molesworth Street. That's where, where the Turnbull Library Turnbull Library is part of the National Library. It's a bit confusing, but, um, [00:25:30] where so? And it's the research side. And so New Zealand's history was basically researched in the Turnbull Library. So, um, if you know someone's writing a new book about the history of New Zealand, um, that's where they would work. Um, a good part of the work to be done there, and that book would end up in every school, every home in the country. So that's the sort of, you know, again, the Turnbull Library is a powerhouse behind research. And, um, yeah, [00:26:00] so, um, so they got all this fabulous stuff there, And so it includes the gay and lesbian, um, collections, um, part of So we. So the building is closed for refurbishment. At the moment, they are improving the storage conditions and some of the the building. Um, some of the plant was failing and things like that. So it was time to give it a good clean up, and so they decided to move us all out. So we're in temporary locations at the moment, um, one in archives, New Zealand, where some of the Turnbull material is. And that's where the, um, manuscript collection is available. [00:26:30] So that's the unpublished material such as diaries, journals, um, papers, um, from organisations and such, um, the rest of the collection is actually in lockdown. At the moment, it's not available, so which is a sort of pain, but, um, and it will be available again in 2012, and that's the published material. And that was really done because there wasn't enough space to find everything. Find places for everything. Um, and also it was sort of thought, Well, the published material, some of it is available elsewhere. Not not a great [00:27:00] deal, you know, Not all of it. But some of it is, um and so that would be the least impact of closing that side of the collection down. But the organisation is still up and running. And, um, like I say, we're planning for the art games. So to contact anybody, I would just go to the website. Um, we've got lists of things that are available there, Like the list of the manuscript collection. What's available at archives is there so you can scan down those. Um, there's about a couple of 1000 items there, so I'll quite quite large people get quite. It's quite a large [00:27:30] collection. Is it a little bit overwhelming? Um, it is, um it is. And it isn't because a lot of it all big library. It's all packed in beautiful boxes, and it's it's packed in acid free folders. It's, you know, something you'd never do yourself at home. But because the Turnbull has whole high conservation values, um, material that comes in, um is, um, inspected for any infestation. So any little crawly C got rid of, um, they put into a free material, so it lasts [00:28:00] longer. It's kept in, um, temperature controlled rooms and boxes that are, you know, wax boxes that are won't damage the material and so on. So it's all so you have rows of boxes with labels on them, which is not which is not very interesting to look at. Um, but so but you do need to, um but there is wonderful stuff there. Once you start digging through, um, people's, um, there's certainly, um, people's personal experiences. So their own papers, their own letters, Um, a lot of, you know, letter writing to politicians [00:28:30] and things like that. Um, there's, um the Waxing Moon Lesbian archive from Hamilton was was donated recently a few years ago, And that's the and that's, um, basically newspaper and and and and and magazine articles which they clipped and stored and put in some sort of order. Um, so they could find stuff, but it sort of covers a period. So that's like a whole period that's been, um, preserved information about, um, there's a lot of scrap books, [00:29:00] so people have, you know, cut clipping books and and put it into what they're interested in. So that's quite fascinating. Um, so, um, reading some of these things that were published 20 years ago or even longer, Um so, yes, there's those sort of things, Um, the other news newsletters. We get New Zealand and overseas because we, um, for for magazines and books, because that's, um really most of the news. Most New Zealanders didn't have any New Zealand. It wasn't any New Zealand publications when we were growing up. [00:29:30] So it was only overseas, um, gay liberation, early publications in America and Britain. And so we've got quite a lot of that material, and that's really interesting, uh, to read and stuff. So anyone who wants to, um, access the archive, um, they need to go go to the web page, look at the curators and contact one of them. It's sort of by appointment at the moment. Um, when the street building open was open, you could actually just walk in and ask one of the staff. And they would, um, make time to talk to you and sort out what you need. [00:30:00] So that serve that function is where where you can kind of get almost like a tour or yeah, you can. This the thing with the Turnbull is most of the collections behind the stacks, and they won't get you into the Turnbull stacks. Um, because there's just so much pressure stuff there. And security is a high, you know, high thing about the library. Um, but, um, we have a public catalogue, a lot of our material. Like I said, there's a lot of material on the website. There's a list of all the journals and newsletters we have. Um, there's some audio. Um, [00:30:30] search some audio recordings. What we have. Um, so there's a list of, um, manuscript papers that we've got there. Um, and there's some other links and some other papers. Um, we've got two books at the moment 20 years on and outlines of lesbian and gay history, which were based on conferences and a really quite an interesting read. Um, So contact one of the curators from there and make an appointment because they're actually living in different buildings from the collection now. So So they have to. They they walking in, um, vote, actually. Uh, though you would have [00:31:00] to wait anyway. So it's best just to, um you email them and tell them what you're looking for. And we can say whether it's available or not, um, and suggest ways of of, of finding the information that's not available. There is a huge amount on the internet now, so I suppose you know. So the needs for for for for immediate stuff is not not that necessary now, as it was years ago. Brilliant. Thank you. Very, very much for taking time and telling us about the extensive, extensive kind of archives of legends. [00:31:30] Well, you're very welcome.
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