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It was very hard in the early days to understand about sex because we did not get sex education. So when things happened, it started to happen. You sort of talk amongst the boys, and a couple of times you look see who's got the biggest and what the difference is and things like that. But I never thought of it in a, um 66 sex of all sexing way. Um, I just thought it was one of those things that happened in disguise, [00:00:30] but by default, um, I spent a lot of time with boys, um, in those days, but we played sport together and that, but at the same time, we were pre in schools and there were girls there. It was a mixed mixed school. So often the girls would boys would partner for dancers and things like that and shows. But it never really struck to me as being, um, a homosexual thing. So So what kind of year are we talking? We're we're talking, um, early sixties and and in terms of school. [00:01:00] What school? Yeah, it was a polite, not polite, a memorial technical college, but it was no longer technical. Longer term I, um, came out. I was quite comfortable with girls, and I was also quite comfortable with boys. And I had just an open what I call a 19 sixties sort of approach to everything. Um, even to the thing of trying a few things out. Like like the old marijuana, which we all seem to have done. Um, [00:01:30] but it didn't go with me. Um, things like that. I was playing good at cricket and rugby. I found that, uh, trying to smoke anything, uh, was not good for my health. I'd be playing sport. I'd get batting at cricket. I'll be up to 10. 20 ones, and I'd be running out of steam, so I had to have a big change in there. I went to Outward Bound school, was sponsored by the company. We after our bound was over, it really, really made me wake [00:02:00] up to myself that there was leadership. I had leadership skills. Um, I won't go into Why do, But basically, that's what it was about to give you confidence. And, um, I came back on the and the guy coming back was from and I was 21 and he was 19 and we got to know each other. We got drunk on the boat going back, but he potted off and coincidentally, came back to work in Wellington at cod in, um, Victoria [00:02:30] Street, the television place where I worked was down what is now at the, um, public library. Um, six months on from that there was a reunion of people to do what that would be mainly to bring the old boys to get and fundraise and that sort of thing for the not so fortunate people to get to get there. And we ended up getting a bit a bit drunk and went back to his house. And he had an argument with the person he was, um, [00:03:00] doing, um, living there. And, um, he was asked to leave. Nothing to do with me being there, but it was obviously some argument. So we piled all his stuff into my car, and I couldn't go home at that stage because I had a few. So we drove to Island Bay and slept on the beach at that time. That was my first real relationship. We went flatting and we had a flat in, um, Overton with one of my, my, um, [00:03:30] colleagues for for the TV. And he happened to be gay. So he introduced us to more or less the scene in those days. And that was about 1970 71 72. Um, yeah, I got there, and then we end up with jobs in the, uh I want to go overseas. At some stage, I look for part time work and, um, end up with a job at the part time at Saint George, um, to somebody in the ski club who owned a ST George. And [00:04:00] he introduced us to, uh, the guy at the, um, Britannia just down the road. And my mate worked in the front bar, and that was a top class pick up girl thing which opened my eyes to a few things I thought, What are these ladies doing there? And then we were asked to go to the, uh, Royal Oak because we were honest. We what was in the tool at the end of the night should be there. There was no giving away drinks. I mean, we had no means to because I thought we would lose our jobs, and we were quite shall I say [00:04:30] good meat. And, um So what happened was there. We worked in the, um, tavern bar, which was a bar in the Royal, which was gay. And in those days, there were two entrances. One went went from Dixon Street and the other came from Manor Street. Now on the were like they had bars on the ground floor. The one was called the Where All the trains and that went and they picked up the Japanese sailors. And that was [00:05:00] all gone. The other one was a public bar, which is on street. And there was a big hallway that ran from Minna Street to Dickson Street. And what would happen is there not many guys in the gay team would come in the Dixon Street entrance. That'd come as they're going in a public bar, walk right through and come to the door in the tab in the bar. Well, the two of us work together and And what happened there? You take the shirt off, you get paid, paid, um, [00:05:30] 50 cents or something. I can't remember what it was, but we were We were played the game quite well. The bar shut at 10 o'clock and, um, by 10 15, everyone had to leave, and then we had to clean up. By 10. 30 we got introduced to the doyen club. That way people took us to the But it was an interesting thing. People that turned up there surprised me. I I'm in my early twenties. Um, the things I know today, [00:06:00] 50 years on is, um, quite a lot, obviously. But the experience there was quite comforting. You felt you felt safe. Um, but what happened with a really funny story was we were all taking along. We used to at the bottom of the stairs, we used to sell tickets for the booze, and then you go up the stairs and there's a big thing there, and there's a DJ there for radio. When you playing the music, It was really, really good. A guy called and it would be great. Really good. And all ages, um, [00:06:30] I was such a good boy that at the end of the year, they have awards awards for things, and I got award for Betty. Good box. Um, yes, it was quite quite a lot, I must say, But, um, what then happened was, um We were trucking along 11 time and we had been having a little bit of trouble with money and they asked me to be treasurer. So I became treasurer for six months because I looked pretty straight up on the It was obvious that, um, things things weren't totally [00:07:00] right there. But we turned it around and we had a little office at the top of the stairs and a little safe in there. But it was all cash in those days. So what? Everyone had a key. So one night we were there. Somebody came up and right behind him a policeman and I shat my pants because I was up the top of the stairs and also busy putting some money in the safe. So I shut the door quickly, and I stand with our top doors, and two of the cops went down and the music went down and they they they went round and see who was [00:07:30] there, and I thought, Shit, we've been murdered. But it wasn't. It wasn't really what we thought. And I started chatting to this guy there. The first one and I you know what's going on and all that thing and he said, Oh, it's all all good He said, We'll look at this look and see from hip and what then happened was, um they didn't do anything. They left quite brightly and turned out longer term. They were looking for a gay guy who had been on a cruise ship to Fiji and that who [00:08:00] had actually burgled or robbed people on the boat who was a gay guy. So they did find him. But that's another story. Um, but next day I'm playing rugby at at Park and for some reason, about three minutes into the game, somebody got seriously hurt. So the whole game stopped in those days. I was on the wing and my boy, So I'm on the wing and I was just standing there with the ball because she used to throw [00:08:30] the ball and I was looking at all the forwards and the other couple of guys come over and just chatting. And anyway, I looked around and I said, That place looks for me. I said, Oh, what time did you finish your shift? And the guy looked at me and he said, No, no, Well, anyway, it turns out they had some policemen in their team and some, um, other sort of that sort of thing in there. So, um, we had a good beer afterwards, and everyone coming. I play with a without people [00:09:00] giving away What? What? What it was about. But, uh, yeah, I found it interesting. And what they said to me, they weren't out after the gay people because, you know, we weren't in the toilets. We knew we were in a place and we were keeping through our group. And that's basically I found out later on one of the many years later when it calm as we discussed it and he said Yes, Well, it was good to have people. We knew that they weren't doing badly, but, um, [00:09:30] still in those days, from a personal point of view, I was mixing with the guys, but I was in a mixed flat as well. And eventually, um, the part my life took off from there. I went overseas, um, but came back and met with people. But things have changed. I went to London and I saw I went to the Vauxhall Tavern. I saw Lee Sutton and the real class drag act. Um, miss not what you [00:10:00] see in New Zealand, Carmen was about the only thing I'm not not knocking the ones down there that the ones that were real class were, um I did. I didn't concede him I. I mean, I come, but Carmen, I put Carmen on Tele in 1970 76. I was working for TV two and we were not hardly any staff in Wellington on TV two. So, by by default, we end up working on Tele, and I conned Carmen and to ask her to come and to, um go on because no one knew what it was. [00:10:30] So Carmen came to the Tele Tom, and the deal was that she would go on the panel. I do go on the panel and then go and answer the phones. And three in the morning has heard some of the girls could come down and do a dance, but they had to have patsies on and that, but no, not on their on their boobs, you know, Um but no, no strip, no naked stripping because we're on TV. So that was OK. Didn't go very well with Auckland. We're gonna have strip tea. But I think in the end they took them nationwide. But because they had nothing [00:11:00] on on Auckland at that time of night. Well, anyway, Carmen turned up early. She was meant to come about 1 a.m. and she turned up about 11, 11, 30 because no one was in the club. They were all watching TV and we were at at the show building up in to street. Um, they a few people come in. Well, Carmen came in and Baz Tuber was on the famous Baz Tuber was on the panel and he was a radio man. He saw Carmen on the far side. And he, [00:11:30] um, said, Oh, there's Carmen and got up and walked off to Carmen, which we only had four cameras. It couldn't exactly turn around came. So next one in the in the control room, they more or less. You got what was going on. So he brought her over and down. No mic, nothing. Um, beside him. And they got going. Well, anyway, the phone started going berserk, wanting to talk to Cameron. So we pronk her over there, and she did. She raised a lot of money. [00:12:00] I mean, it was a novelty thing, I think I don't know. But anyway, the girls turned up early, too, and they sat there, and they had their long coats on and all. And we had the music. It all organised. It was pretty cool because some people turned up to do something and we didn't have a band there to go behind them, so we had to bring their own music. Um, but anyway, we were going along quite happily, and Auckland called for any help with anything. So they ended up putting us, you know, ladies on, they did a very good thing, but they died at another [00:12:30] one at 44. 30 AM. And that become a bit embarrassing because bozo ble was was was, um, supposed to, um, become on at six at 6 a.m. with you see, all we had this school kids arriving, Carmen girls going around in buckets. One has lost one of her, one of her. And, um, I turned around to one of the guys working here, and I said, Oh, shit. And he said I got to learn some time. [00:13:00] So we did have a good time. But those were the days where um, it to me. I found an acceptance of people not looking strangely at people. Um, you know, there was a there were homophobia, because at that stage, the, um, 1986 thing hadn't come through. No change hadn't happened, but it was from a under underlying point of view. I was always worried that I might lose my job, but turning that around, um, in the [00:13:30] people that came to New Zealand in the sixties to help New Zealand television were from from British stage and theatre, and they'd done some television experience. Most of them were gay. And, um, you work with them and they didn't write it down, but they were quite exciting. Some of the the guys we had who really want to call them. I think I call them twinks these days. But we didn't realise that you just saw yourself as yourself. Um, but no, the the things moved [00:14:00] on. But the good thing about it was that television got rid of the glass ceiling for women because it lifted them up totally, um, into because you had that woman's programmes and you end up with, um and people like the hall was on you and the halls. Um, Peter Sinclair, Um, put a lot of people come out of the closet in that respect, but we didn't really They didn't really get beaten up or anything. But at the same time, I've always always [00:14:30] worried myself that I'm gonna get scrunched in the bottom of a ruck somewhere. You know, um, but I people were quite surprised. You know, in some respects, I may even have that leaning because it just looks just played straight. But that's me. I just with me. But life went on. Um, those are the early days. But once I did go to some parties where we had, uh there was a group of guys, um, case and John and well [00:15:00] known group in Wellington we got invited up to They'd hired a house after Airbnb type thing now, but in those days, a house up there for about two weeks at Christmas, everybody piled up to you. What was cases name? Coo coo. And he was working in a I didn't print it down. And, um, where the BNZ was in Ireland. Um, Courtney Place used to work the, uh, company name, but I of course I knew him and I was in the ski club committee. I used to use [00:15:30] our So those are those are sorts of lias that happen. You, you you help each other, but, um, yeah, we get up to you, and, um, it was I would have been, um, before I went overseas, So we went to 72. Um, we we got invited up to my flatmate, and I and, um, we went but up there before we went, we got a phone call, and I mean, no. Um, what do you call it? Um, cell phones. But we got a toll call from would be paid a charge, [00:16:00] and that was that was quite fun. What they wanted was another case of gin, and they'd only been up there for about three or four days. So, um, the supplies were running a bit low. Um, so we went and got some gin, and we put it on your account, but so we arrived up there, and there was a guy from, um, put with us who work in who was a and him. And I got on quite well, so it was a good time. But that was up there and what they'd done in the place didn't have curtains in some parts and in the in the, um, [00:16:30] bedrooms at them. So they put newspaper up, so, you know, and we went midnight swimming rather than midday swimming, but, uh, people had a pensions for losing their togs or couldn't find them, but it was quite fun. I think we would have been had been daylight have been quite fun, but, um, no, it was it was things like that. You did have close groups who become friends and could trust each other. That was my thing. The trust was the thing there. But I was quite surprised. Over [00:17:00] time, as I got more and more into the circle where the people were, they were quite genuine. Do do. One or two people won't say idiots, but but I was screaming, screaming a bit, you know, but, um, or loud when they shouldn't have been loud. But But, um, look, going on from that, um, I. I did get married. And had we I decided that came and I had a good discussion about things, and the person I know got married [00:17:30] to also knew Cameron. Um But she said the greatest gift for you can have is have Children. And I asked her, and I did an interview many years later, um, with with her and ask her, You know, she enjoyed her life as it was, but, um yeah, but II I would agree with her, You know, it gives you meaning to your life. So I wasn't totally gay, you know, on the far left of the radar. And nor was I far right on it. Um, I was [00:18:00] sort of middle, but some people didn't like that. You know, you can't You can't sleep with a guy and you can't sleep with a girl. Well, that's your problem, not mine. But I just see people as the people. And what do you call it? Love or what? I don't know, but to a time when I will help people. Because in my days, in the early days people help me. Would it be at work or whatever? And as I got older, I saw the younger one struggling. I went on to Rainbow Wellington [00:18:30] for 10 years on the committee, and we did a lot of things. Um we did the civil Union we did the marriage thing. And the later ones we dealt with blood. Things we did with, um HIV, Um, in in that respect, um, HIV There were quite a few broadcasting people who died from it, and they were close to me. I had worked with them side by side editing film or helping them research something. And one [00:19:00] of the saddest things I saw was a really talented guy. One day I hadn't seen him for a while at a and I heard him say, Oh, hi, Phil. Good to see you. I turned around and it was like walking death coming at me completely. Grayer ski eyes. You know, I It was tragic. Um, I didn't know what to say. And all people, people, nobody told me. And all people, um, just said, Oh, he's got cancer. And that was the way he was a lovely guy. But it turned [00:19:30] out another one passed away. I used to be an a who who was the head of department. He passed away. So their names are in the, um we We record it everywhere. Um and they have a memorial each year in Wellington. So I'll go to that. But also I met, um, Daniel Fielding. He was working at the bar as I was working, and he took me to the sauna and that my introduction to saunas, What was the bar that you were working at? The Blue Note Blue Note [00:20:00] in Corner. And Vivian, which was the red light district. Um, I made a, um, show in 2007 called on the corner for the Fringe Festival. Um, what that was about was a was a written in six weeks because we we as a fringe as a bar had, um, been a Bruno. We changed over the called the fringe, Um, because we're trying to get a wider sort of thing. It was an all night bar. It was the last. [00:20:30] We were all known to the gay community. But you had anything in there, even even a, um a lady who had a very good way of throwing cheers across the room right across. I mean, she would have won the shot put at the Olympics, but, um, when she lost it, or someone called her something that that was it. These days, she's a model of society and you gone quite a high way. But, um but basically, I drew a line in the sand on 1986 and I said, Let's create the district as it was [00:21:00] in street going backwards, Um, went to the prostitutes collective and got all the newsletters, and I learned that prostitutes do not sell sex. They sell time. That was going and I was I wrote A and I used a lot of my tenants stay upstairs in the play. So eventually we had, uh, 20 people in the plane we had, um what's the name? We used the karaoke [00:21:30] music. Nobody didn't have to pay music rights because we already had our own. And they would sing because I, I am one that haven't seen London with the live means that they can actually sing. So they all the ones that they sung the people we had, except for where we had to do fast costume changes on stage. We we prerecorded and they mind. But you didn't notice because people were moving quickly. Um, but anyway, to play, we, we we we booked great days because nobody had booked [00:22:00] the first week of sort of shows the French for three weeks. So two weeks the last two weeks had it. So on we went and I had. The youngest cast member was 19, and the oldest was about 72. And before John Joli was the narrator, he he later on, he had been involved with civil union and his, uh, partner. He was in the thing, and we had half time and what we did before then and we we did the cheese cheese song. And, [00:22:30] um, it was just We are the boys from over the hill. We really know our sex. There's nothing here than to use the and And then they started throwing condoms into the audience and said, Go for it because it half time. So So it was a one real fun show. Um, but we had people in there, and I had one got permission from Carmen to do a skit. It was a skit of different things during what happened in the year, um, being lonely in the street, the drugs and all that [00:23:00] shit, you know, can you hold the We We had, um, had the people in the show. Um, And as I was writing the script, I was going upstairs occasionally. So do you want to be in it? And can you do a drag act or something, You know, but we had a straight boys do some straight boys in it. 11 was doing We're doing healing as this thing came off with the pro law and all that from 1986 that things broadened out. So we did a song called Sexual [00:23:30] Healing. And we included our DJ who had who was also a male stripper, and he stripped to the jockstrap. And it was the final night. I didn't know what was gonna happen. We got the full Monty. But it was one of those shows that just developed um, and I had one where the section would come and and we did the tea cup sequence, which is where you have to cut one way. It means you want straight sex or up on the side. It means you want a boy and you want upside down and you want a train. But [00:24:00] you know, that was it in Carmen's autobiography or so I used that skirt and that went down like it. But But I had a problem because we could not rehearse the show. So I had made the show in segments. And then we we did a final run through and at the last minute I realised that John Joli was the narrator, was behind the bar, and it was like a TV thing. You go to the news reader, and then you have the act on stage and give them time to quit. So but we had nothing. [00:24:30] John talks to Carmen as she arrives because she's coming from the balcony, and, uh, then she's got to get to the coffee club, which is just walk across to the stage. But I hadn't written the script so and the same thing at the end of the thing, I hadn't got her off stage. So I said to to Moore, was the, uh she She was a lovely lady Maori lady very much in the older Cameron. Um, but anyway, she was She was awesome. But [00:25:00] I gave her a book and said, Find something because there were so many little things we fixed up by. By then, I had a director for the show, but, um, what happened was on the night, I did not know what was gonna happen And she came in and they did The skirt and all the audio. We were packed house, by the way, packed house. Mostly, um, older people. When I say that about 30 plus crowd and a lot of them were relating to what was going on. Um, and she came off and she started walking to the stage [00:25:30] and she said, Hello, Albert. Parliament not setting tonight so that everyone laughed at that. Then Oh, David, the flowers. Those were great. Do Mum like them? Yeah, I'm really glad to do that. And she got up on stage and went through the, um, skirt of the cups and all that. And then she came off the stage and I thought, What next? And she's walking off the stage, really standing up straight and right, right? A large lady. And she said, Somebody asked and you know, do I hear [00:26:00] somebody ask me if I was pregnant and she said, Oh, and I flapped up one. And she said, Well, actually, I am. And then what's that? Do I know who the father was? And, uh, do I have eyes in the back of my head? Well, every night the show stopped it. It just It just drew everybody. She was She was brilliant. But what I liked about it was the acceptance that people weren't calling in a corner. And when we the last [00:26:30] thing we do, uh, on this thing is we do I am what I am as a, um, curtain call at the end. And we did that. And people we got every night a standing ovation. Um, but the thing was, I flipped it into two halves. I got criticised because the the the last half, um, dragged out a bit, but we decided we had to have a drinks break, so we sold stuff over the bar. So we went for half an hour because everyone is chatting away, you know, and and anyway, I had [00:27:00] Tony on the the opening night catastrophe. Tony was, um, the drag queen from way back. And he got on and he sang a song. It is the right way to do it and that mean bear in mind. He's 72 and as he got up on the stage, he chipped up and sprained his ankle. So for every night next of the next eight night, he um sat with his feet and a bottle of bucket of ice drinking gin so he can get on stage. So it was one of those sort of [00:27:30] They said, Well, the end story at Finn has a final night, and you all go down to San Francisco and we're all having drinks and awards been given out. And somebody somebody said, What are you doing? You're meant to be out there. And what do you mean? Well, this caught you out. And what the hell for? We we won an award for the most colourful show in the fringe. Um, honourable mention and in the theatre section. So I thought, Yes. So where it comes to that. But what [00:28:00] it did show to me was the acceptance of society had changed from when I was trying to trying to put myself in a closet for that reason. Um, I, I am what I am, and that's basically it. What year was this is 2007. 2007. You've covered, um, well, decades worth of of material. And there is so much in that. Do you Do you mind if we just go back and can I ask you a couple of questions about, um, particularly [00:28:30] in the the days when, um, this is well before homosexual law reform. So we're talking about the sixties. What was how how were homosexuals or bisexuals treated? Um, bisexuals were probably like I told people by the gay community. The guys are pretty saying you're not gay or they used to get ostracised. You don't go with those, and and that was that was that way. Um, yeah, [00:29:00] the the rugby clubs and that were, man, um oh, we're not gonna play a bit of a puff or whatever, but because they look pretty straight and I believe they put straight, I think you know, I. I more got worried that somebody would find out. But I got away with a lot of things because I work on CV and they called me glam. But no, it was, um there were things that that you didn't do. I mean you. It was an underlying thing there. It was not right to be [00:29:30] a homo homo. Um, but it it was uncomfortable. What kind of words would they use? Oh, um um yeah, I can I can honestly just come in fine detail. But it was. But, you know, I, I touched on it because there were guys there that obviously the way they're born in in their system were were gay. And I mean, they were window, [00:30:00] um, dresses and things like that, and they obviously go. What's wrong with him? It's not in your face. It's like John And on, um, are you being served? Clap your hands around, by all means, But you're not going in the face of somebody as straight, and you're trying to straighten them out and to get them, you know, to be your friend. You know, um, the the thing was, ironically, there was a lot of British, uh, shows on at it was the interesting part. Hudson and horse got laughed at, you know, got accepted, [00:30:30] and that would I would say that would be the first I could be wrong. But the first play in New Zealand, that was New Zealanders were gay people on screen. So was it one of those things where you could be in certain situations? But actually, you knew when to kind of pull back and and actually Oh, hell, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah um, let's say some of my friends, When I had a big birthday party at the end, I was, um, on my own, and my wife and I decided [00:31:00] that, um, we want to go our own ways because the kids are grown up. We had a big, big party. I had my bank manager there, my travel manager, everybody in life and bloody dentist, for God's sake, um, just invited them along because there's a station in your life and and, you know, one of friends here, But But, um, a lot of people who knew me did not know me and, um, to me, they said that it explains a lot. Yeah. Um, [00:31:30] yeah, just Well, it was a great party. I mean, you you have you have a party in a blue note and then the the the big drag queen. Turns out Amanda, who I was at managing at the time, decided to sing. I am what I am to have the speakers out outside facing the state Highway one and fighting out, dancing out with a microphone in the middle of state Highway one, traffic lights and everything coming to a standstill while she does a number at my birthday party. I mean, that was class. Um, the other class was that [00:32:00] we had John Key. The prime minister used to come to Logan Brown across the road from where we were. And one of the things we did was do shows for him, climb out on the balcony and have the two dicks below that are basically guarding him because he was at the window up upstairs, and, um, we put on a show for him. Um, you were jokes like that you would get away with now, and, um, that will have to be. We were there until [00:32:30] 2009 would have to be 2008. You were about to about 2009. Yeah, he's got Tuesday night down at, um, Logan Brown. I mean, when he used Winnie, Peters used to go to it was a great wait, wait. But, um yeah, but when when he was so small. You know, um, I was at the I came back from a trip and went to the green one night when he came in with, um, James Shaw, Winston Peters and James. [00:33:00] I mean, behind the scenes in Poli. I mean, I had a lot to do with Parliament. At one stage behind the scenes, it's, you know, we've got a job to do, and now time to relax. But at the same time, you you get some pretty stick. It don't blow hards, you know, and you got some people you never hear. So in the in the sixties, how did you meet? Um, other people from the rainbow community. Um, I didn't know there was a community. I mean, [00:33:30] I'm in the sixties. Did you even consider it? Because in the first half of the sixties, I was at college and, um and then went on and I started TV in 60 67. So the community to me didn't exist in now. Well, now it was later on. Um, but I didn't meet gay people, but I wouldn't say there was a community of people there, and it wasn't until I got to the door and in the seventies that that's when it became apparent. Um, [00:34:00] well, I'm just trying to think we when we went down south, um, yeah, yeah, there was in the Christchurch. Now we used to get on the overnight my friend and I used to go go skiing at Mount Hut and Porter Heights. We'd go down on the at eight o'clock on Friday night and, um, Mel, I think Mel was on the on the boats in those days and famous. Mel, that's, um, we had to check with him, but But we'd go down to Littleton, would [00:34:30] get on the train, or they the boys would pick us up at the evening. I think most of the time we got on the train and got to Littleton. They picked us up, took us straight to mount, Did the glam things like laying out a white table cloth of bloody chandeliers and the whole bloody lot in the car park, which you know. OK, Yeah, OK, I look and off we go skiing. And then that night we'd go to a party in something like Pendleton and, um, really classy places and look at some movies that someone smuggled in from overseas. [00:35:00] But yeah, that that was that. And we we stayed at somebody's flat house. But they had a good good group there, and we went down as a Taylor's mistake in Christchurch. Yeah, yeah, we went there for Christmas. Somebody had a batch, and there was a whole group of people there. I was not I was familiar with, um as I say, case and that I mentioned earlier. We went to places in Island Bay. But ironically, next door to where we are now was a very famous house, [00:35:30] which was, um, had a a symphony orchestra pianist, deer who was a gay guy. Paul Cole. He passed away many years ago. He used to have the grand piano deer, but I used to have, um I've spoken to the lady next door who spoke. She told me she said it used to be a gay scene of men dressing up, as as ladies was next door. Now, at the moment his partner has passed away. He died years ago in They're actually going through the files. And somebody in the archives has been up [00:36:00] there. That's next door. So they're going through. They're finding a lot of documents about that. So, um, that's all been taken out bit by bit, I think. Roger. Roger from, um we got 35. 24 next door. It's been sold. Yeah, and some of the stuff still there. We still got to get it out, but yeah, What was? Unfortunately, I won two later, but but, um yeah, No. So there is that going on. But basically, [00:36:30] I didn't really know. I just me It was me. I mean, you know, I like I like I like people who played sport. I like people who, um, swimmers on that because, you know, you always, um you should see See what they were but did Did did Did you ever name it like, did you ever you know, like, say, gay or bisexual? I mean, or was it just This is who somebody was? I don't think I knew the word gay. No, not really. [00:37:00] Um, no, I never knew that. I wasn't until many years later. This gay I could be wrong, but I, I don't recall the word gay. Um, maybe in London, What time I got to London in 2003. I mean, in 1973. Um, yeah, but we went to the, uh it was a big eye opener. London to go to Vauxhall on. Um, what's the name? Tuesday night you'd go to whistle in Camden Town for Sunday lenses And there were a lot of kiwis here, uh, Australian [00:37:30] kiwis, Um, and, um, then we go to hampster he and some bathed in the men's area, and then we'd go down to the green man, I think, at the green box or something. Um, for the dinner night and it was all good. And we tend to get to know some people now working in BBC. That was classical gay. It was classical gay. The commissioner, um, liked me really much. I was able to grab his hat off and wheeled up to my edit that day with his hat on. I mean, it was [00:38:00] a lot of fun, but, um, yeah, but it was very, very more open in London than it was in New Zealand. So do you feel like, in the late sixties did you feel repressed or liberated? Because I'm thinking that, you know, gay liberation didn't happen until, well, you know, the kind of activism activism stuff didn't happen until, say, the the late sixties, early seventies. Well, bear in mind that closing I started about in 1967 at 10 o'clock and then your age was [00:38:30] 21. And then you come 20. I ignored the law in terms of you know what the hell You want to tell me what to do? And that was the thing. I just stop you. I What happens privately at this stage, The stage with me you don't need. I'm not in somebody's space. Um, and that's my my attitude to things. You know, I just like some people in the thing yesterday in the demonstration stuff. A lot of you. I'm gonna do this, but it's a wrong game. They can play yesterday. But what I'm saying is, I don't [00:39:00] I didn't see why that's not right, but I I'll do what I want to do. And, um but I'm not going to do something that somebody can run away and say, Hey, you've done it. You know, uh, it's naughty. I mean, a lot of people, um, in Wellington, in that club from all walks of working. So how did you come across the Dorian Club from? We were were working in the, um, bar and bar, and we had to be up [00:39:30] by 10, 10, 30. So people often said to us Well, what are you doing after? And so would you like to come and have a drink. Of course we want to have a bloody drink because we were actually not allowed to drink. And and we we walk down from, um from what it Dickson street to Lampton to the opposite. Or now with David Jones that there was a later do and they moved up to Willow Street village. The building got pulled down, I think. And the one opposite David [00:40:00] Jones we was Was that like, on the first floor or so Not ground floor, but first floor? No, it was on the first floor. The staircase went up. I think it was Hannah's shoes. Stop. But I could be wrong. I had to look at, but I have in my mind the shop was there and there was a door here and after you went upstairs and it, um, then stepped up another half step to get to the dancing. And there was a I think toilets and that, for some reason, there, but and the office was [00:40:30] there, it wasn't straight up. Come up the stairs, your office there. Then you go up another two or three to the next bit, so I don't know why that happened. But it was there. But, um, yeah, it was good. We had They had Sunday parties there. Um, and I think once we had a ladies party because I remember taking my one of my place there. But a lot of guys that's funny. Guys did not want women in their in their bar, and they didn't want it in, um, up there. When we worked in New York, there was still at the days that the, um, lounge bar [00:41:00] upstairs was for women. That's where you took your your partner. So it was segregated. Segregated? Uh, your public bar was men Tavern bar was men. The best was men and the and the Chinese. But upstairs was a nice lounge bar And that in those days, when I read back in history, the lounge bars were for ladies the same at, uh, Britannia, the public bar with the men and mostly people working at the Dominion in those days pointing it and all that. Um And then, [00:41:30] um, the bar up front was for let take a lady, but mostly your lady for taking you when you went in there. Because that's what we are secret place. You know, the pre You going down? Uh, basically where New World is, Um, And you had on the corner. You had Duke of Edinburgh. That was That was a mixture of upstairs. You have a mix of people, and then you went down. You had the, um, Saint George [00:42:00] across the road, but that was pretty straight. And then you went down. You came to the Britannia? Um, the Carlton now, the Carlton had a lot of us TV people in there. But then you drunk to about seven, and then you went up to the So there was a creative people who had to go home to the wives and kids going home, and the others of us went up and did a nice smell in the air occasionally, but, um so, like, literally, there was a bar on every corner. Yeah, well, you you you look now, [00:42:30] Um, well, in those days, Cuba Street would become Cuba more than 67 when I started working. Um, so, yeah, it was I mean, the the oaks is is became a pound in one part, but that was upstairs. And that would have been. And that's where the banana bar was for a while. You Scott, would tell you about that one. That was a bar there and then tucked into a, um, dance dance floor bar up there. But [00:43:00] that all changed when the building got demolished. And the, um, bar was that known outside of rainbow circles as a kind of a rainbow meeting place. Um, I'll put it this way generally. Yes. Um, but having said that, you'd have people mistakenly walk in and look around and you smile. We smile. OK, guys, what do we like to drink? Uh oh. And out they go. Apologies. We'd send [00:43:30] them through which I had just come through here. Just go out there. The bar. You wants us there. Don't send them to a whisper, but, um, no, it was that. I mean, you caught because the middle of town and bear in mind that the hotel, the hotel room above you, they come down to drink at the bar and, um mistaken. Well, I say mistakenly, but some people will. I remember all the guy took their shirts off one night. There was a lot of English sailors there, but I think they were in the wrong thing. They should have been in the [00:44:00] but But, um, you know, it's it's you just don't know. But no, it was, uh, to me, I never I only worked Friday on Saturday nights here. We did not seem to have any altercations. Not inside the bar. Um, we've had one or two. I you know, Steve had this problem where somebody's come out and then come all all ops and he or their way out and argue and that we never had any of that. Um well, [00:44:30] I didn't experience, but then again, I wasn't a full time barman and just getting back to the, uh, Dorian. So what kind of people would be going to the Dorian, um, all game, any age? Yeah. Um, you get the familiar faces. I mean, we are the ones that are really known around town. Um, are you a businessman? Um, I we had MP once, um, came to have a look at the place. [00:45:00] Um, it wasn't Joe Walden. He got caught out in, um, Palmerston North. Um, but no, we were, um I think, um, what's the name? A couple of couple of people and I won't name them but back there, um, there were a few scandals which were the one in Christchurch with a was a complete farce. Um, you know, he's he's a lovely guy and very good politician, but he just got accused [00:45:30] of things were just not If you look at it logically, it couldn't happen. And the kids were The kids who were involved were out just to get money, and I don't even think they knew he was an MP but that those sorts of things came out. And II I was really annoyed about that. Um, no other allegations of the the 19 seventies had a number of politicians, um, being accused of homosexuality or or what have you? And it was, um a lot of it was a a kind of like, um, using [00:46:00] homosexuality as a political weapon, wasn't it? Yes, it was. And I mean, Lindsey got caught out and going innocently to the lower heart toilets. And then he got accused of whatever, and it wasn't right. And I thought sometimes I wondered, And when you look who was running the newspapers at the time, I could see the the this because we were accused of being left wing. Well, we weren't. You don't do a story. It's not true and doesn't stack up. I mean, we ironically, [00:46:30] um the back of our building in, um, Victoria Street overlooked the toilets in the library that Moya was supposed to have got into. And be honest, I was so naive. I did not know what what went on. Um, and some, you know, I did go there occasionally to go and have a just a standard. We were, you know, And But there was I was aware in, um when I played cricket, uh, in the late sixties, out there were toilets [00:47:00] where it is now in a swimming pool, and them and we finished early, and I sat in the car and I was just going there and went out. What note? I noticed guys were sitting in cars watching, and then I look back. I know now what is happening to go in there. And I thought I was waiting for my friend who came to finish and and anyway, and then the guy would come out and then Oh, that guy went in 10 minutes ago. He must must got a He got the shots or something, you know, but, um, no, [00:47:30] that that was what I learned was a cottage. It wasn't my scene. I never, never really got to. The toilets were to go in for toilets and get them out. And so the television New Zealand Building Was it on where the central police station is now on street? Um, with no, no, we were, um, where the library is. There was, um if you look at photos, there was a carpet shop. [00:48:00] There was a office block, uh, next to it with with us, uh, we production offices and preparation and programme. Where in Taylor Street was this is before 1975 up to about April 75. We opened. So what you did, you did production down there, and it wasn't studio based. And then you went up to studio and and all the programmes played from from in Taylor Street. So we were there. Then you had, um I think it was a liquor store under cars [00:48:30] and a shoe shop on the corner, but you went up balcony. But the thing about that was I volunteered to work a lot of night shifts because, um, I want I needed. I was getting studies and other things, but I wanted, um We just put a lot of equipment on editing machines, but do not enough. So I we had to do start doing night shifts, which is unusual in those days. Um, bear in mind there was no Sunday shopping and Friday night, late nights and all that. So you got to take a back LA. [00:49:00] So I volunteered to do night shift, which was fine coming in at five. Go home well, and have morning tea about, you know, lunch at about 10 o'clock at night. Well, on the second floor, we were working just me and my mate. Um, I'm editing away and I go to the toilet, and the toilet has happened to have a, um next to the urinal, you could look down on the balcony below you, and the window was open because there's a fire escape and all that. So anyway, when it's a hot day like this. And, [00:49:30] um, Anyway, I'm looking out there and I voice suddenly go. Hello? Would you like some coffee? And I look out and there was this lady I thought was sitting down there. It was. So I said to next door, there's a strip club there. Let's go down. So we climbed out the window, go down there and I've never seen people that have fixed us top and bottom before. And he cracked up and he said, Oh, what is it? They were getting dressed, you know, moved up here and God knows what. And that's my first meeting of came and she asked [00:50:00] us what he was doing. So when as we went on, um, we we went and visited the coffee lounge a lot. So he always asked me how TV was and things like that. She was really, really good. And that's how we got a friendship with how I got her on Tele. But yeah, but it was quite interesting. But that's that's was where the place was. And ironically, the affair was just around the corner, thinking of your first meeting with Carmen. What? What was your first impression? When when you met Carmen? Um, first impression [00:50:30] was very professional. I was surprised to find it in Wellington. We We were supposed to be a backwater, you know. And my first time when you met there, there was no, no Saturday shopping. And the pubs are shutting at 10. Um, you did not have the free and easy society we now have. Um but no, she was always glam. We I. I edited the final programme and close up. Um, we did an item on her leaving New Zealand, um, to Paul. Ransley was a journalist, [00:51:00] and, uh, you know, she knew I was around and I was going to it, and she was quite happy to talk about things. But one of the most moving scenes I I managed to get her to do was we had to end the programme somehow. And I said to her, You know, are you gonna leave the suitcase behind with all the the stuff? Are you gonna just gonna be car and the boy or what? And she said, No, I'll do something for you. So you said, find a, um with a light going with a back to you, but you couldn't [00:51:30] see her face. And the light goes slowly down and she takes her wig off and stands up, and that was walked off into the darkness. To me, that was very powerful because she had, um she stood for me. She you know, she done all sorts of things she'd made claims about naked beaches would be doing that soon. Um, she was, you know, in the forefront. And she had Bob James behind her. She was [00:52:00] wise. She probably paid the bill, but, um, yeah, my my payment account. First time was for this. This is a lady knowing what she's doing. It was unusual, but there's no way she could be running something like that as she was. And she had the lady at the back who used to. I can't remember her name off hand right now, but he used to spend in those days. We were vinyl records. And she'd say, And now we hope for you. Please. You ladies and gentlemen, do Dolly Dolly Jones or something. [00:52:30] And then she'd startling thing and crackle away, and then it would jump down. Oh, fuck. Start again. Um, but yeah, those are the things and and people I saw in that bad thing because we had a coffee. You could see who tweeted. Some of the people surprised me, one of my cousins, a school teacher, but, uh, he was sitting there in the audience and there were people that you see around town and going to a strip club. And I went well, well, but But she had the report for do it. [00:53:00] And it so went down because the the place got demolished for the library and she ended up with cars up the road. She went into the curiosity shop, which is down the top of Cuba. Um, that was another thing I didn't I didn't have much to do it. I never came up that part of town, but, uh, yeah, but she was always there, and people were always talking about her. Can you describe the interior of the balcony the balcony had at the back? It was a big open hall [00:53:30] with seats, just normal seats. No, no, nothing fancy, but we only sort of night time. But, um, so the the street side, uh, you came up and came in on the right hand side. The DJ box had its back to, uh, Victoria Street. The stage was face this place in, um, Eastern Those days. The stage was a big It was a big open area, and they serve coffee and then drinks quietly and somehow [00:54:00] they a bottle of coke may also have an A. And then you notice the cap comes up quite quick. Um, nobody got poisoned or anything, but, um, so you got the music from the back, and then you had the lots of lights on and the stage was a big white stage. Probably. I know how many metres this is, but but that stage with a with a curtain with a curtain, and they did not use the curtain, they used to come from stage right and do their numbers, and [00:54:30] they come amongst the audience, and there was enough room to get amongst everybody. Um, and the, um, dressing room was out the back. And of course, you had the bit I've described earlier outside where you can walk on a little bit of a deck, which is if I was so, uh, yeah, I know what's gonna happen. When we did have a bar in one building or the other, we all clang together, and it would surprise some people what was there? Um, but I had an open mind. I. I didn't I mean, people live and people got got to work. [00:55:00] Um, yeah, I got invited to some quite a few of their functions. It was quite interesting. How did how did the police react to Carmen? Or in particular, things like the balcony? Um, I didn't I didn't go too much. Um, I never saw any influence with it. I never saw police cars outside because in those days you could park right there. Um, but it was I think you could follow up on that one with the guy that went to the 70th, um, party. [00:55:30] Yeah, Yeah, he was the one that would be the expert on it, because I honestly, I didn't have much police in those days to Bobby hat. And, um, that was about it, as far as I was concerned. Um, holding cars and that and, um no I. I knew the only close thing I have with the police was at the That's when we are you talking to ask what your name is and all that shit. So, um, I did tell my name straight. I wasn't gonna [00:56:00] go any other way. Um, but but the thing was, um I never really saw the police do anything. No, I never saw there were stories in the paper from time to time. Um, yeah, but not I never come across him. But do do you think that was more if the police knew where you were? So, like, say, the Dorian or at Carmen's, that was actually they were quite happy for that because I think they were because [00:56:30] you were contained in that. Yeah, I think I think the police accepted that these things were happening. And unless you went across the line and doing something, something that you shouldn't and you should have stopped. I think that that was the thing. I don't think that that's a he. I don't think it was, um, like, we're gonna go out and find them. It's like the anything like the, um, overstays in Auckland from that era. Bear in mind, they were doing things that they shouldn't really have done [00:57:00] the way they did it. But I don't think any I. I don't know if they had the resources to do it. Um, but at the same time, um, they're probably more excited about judging, um, bill such and secrets to to, um, Russia up Holloway Road. And if we were looking at the gay people, if the If the gay people just keep them to themselves, And I think that would be my most important thing. What about, uh, S International Coffee shop on Vivian Street? Can you describe that? But that was the one where [00:57:30] you, um it's ironically, the Salvation Army owned the land land. Um, and, uh, and that's where the Salvation Army Church is now. So they actually own the land. They were charging her rent. Now, the thing about that, the Salvation Army, on the other hand, were telling you she can't be gay. Um, that's what I I'm in a hell of a bind here because I was adopted. And I was born in Bethany, just down the road from where I now live. And that was a Salvation Army home. Had that not been there, I [00:58:00] don't think I'd have been got to not say it was. I did. My mom didn't have. They had a good start to life with me as I found out. Um, so I was hypocrite for me to ignore the Salvation Army, but they used to go down Vivian Street. You'd start at, uh, the bar on the corner. The next was the music bar. Then there was, um a hole in the wall was a bit naughty. And then there was, uh, evergreen. OK, so this is actually, um, heading [00:58:30] east. Yeah. And we we we're going down on the section of Cuba and Vivian Vivian Street. On the opposite side was the, um, Papa Depo, a sex shop on the corner with all the different toys. And that's where a lot of guys went on and and just relieved himself at the in the, uh, little booths watching something. Um, Then you had the strip club above, which belonged to Papadopoulos. The purple onion was a purple onion. Not the music bar. [00:59:00] That strip club, so and then you had next to it was the big white one. I heard something, but it was owned by somebody in Auckland. Um, but there was a big strip club there, and below was the main cigar bar. And that's where I think you got ladies. That's now the recycling shop. Then you got what was here in New Zealand or head offices here and then became archives for a while. Then you got more little shops down to the so was actually further away. You had to physically get there from [00:59:30] if you're in the middle of the red light district. But Marion Street was the workers in the thing. Marion Street at one stage had 60 people working. And then you head up the street in Smith. The girls were working. So there, those are nice things. In the old days, you could drive around in a circle down Cuba up. Marion can't do now because of the way the motorway is. So people would drive through and make a choice and then go back and go up. Other times I don't go through. [01:00:00] And in my day at the, um, upstairs in the blue note, um, we had one of the girls, one of the girls there, dressed up, she had a lovely, uh, leather coat given to her by her friend from Auckland. And she'd gone out to Marion Street night early because we were watching the rugby and the flat. She came back. She said, Oh, I like my coat. It was nice and warm, and she came back about three quarters of an hour and it had egg going everywhere. And so I said, what happened? She said, Oh, some bastard [01:00:30] threw eggs at me that it was a nice way for your coat. So she came back, but that that was her walking the street and they were driving in a car. You don't I don't seen that since, um, but as I say, Carmen was further away, and she used to. She used to live partly upstairs at some stage. So when you got to Carmen's, it was not or dazzle. You had to know it was there. And then, um, there was a little window, [01:01:00] and the thing would open. Oh, you hear you. Hm? Ok, you can come in. And yeah, so was that on the ground floor, Actually, another issue. So, um, so what you go inside is a flamboyant, um, thing like an Egyptian parlour, right? I think you see photos of it, but the thing was there it's like here you'll be sitting here and someone will be sitting here and it's lit. Or so you thought. And this person has ordered [01:01:30] something. And while we're busy talking over their disappeared, they've gone through the bloody curtain and going up for a bit of house about that, you know, But, um that was on one side. But, um, yeah, it was. And then as you walked out, the kitchen was there. And the thing that they there was always do do I think, the name of door or something. Um, doing the dishes. And she'd always turn around and have a look at you. And then and then if you you said something rude because bear mind states were going [01:02:00] to Cameron and politicians, Um and, um, she'd come take her shoe off and chase them with a bloody hell. Um, it was really quite new. And I see her several times. Um, but then he went out the back, and there was, um Yeah, it wasn't much, but the coffee lounge itself had something about it. It was a mistake about it. It was calm to the to the, um and she she'd be waved through. She'd make sure she'd know everybody. I have television going. [01:02:30] Oh, how are you today? Have you? You know, it's it was like that. It makes you feel home. Evergreen did the same too. But evergreen was more or less, um, because you were which basically helped the people on the street, and I got a taste of sandwiches and things like that, but was was really, really a good coffee. It wasn't that. And also the coke never, never really tasted like real coke. I called it a classic Coke, but no. And you you didn't pay to get in. [01:03:00] Um, so I think once or twice we did. For some reason, I can't remember what it was. Um, the balcony always paid to get in. But how much would it cost to get Oh, God, Maybe about 50 cents. And bear in mind that when I started, um, started work. I was being paid £525 a year. And that turns one about $1000 in those days. And so would you actually tip the the dancers? Um, people did, um, they a dollar and, [01:03:30] well, we didn't have the notes. I can't remember. The word change was all it was. All changed. Yeah. I'm just trying to think how the hell we did it. Um, but the the one that I really liked was the girl with girl and banana on a motorcycle. It was a really funny one. But there were There were things to come and say, Oh, come and set a girl with banana, you know, But, um, people trying to as I say, I don't I just can't bring about was done because we we had, um one pen. You had [01:04:00] one pen? Yeah, we went up, and then it come up the 10 10 cents for five cents. 10 cents. Um, I want to go. Yeah, well, we know your days are two shillings and and crowns, and it's not like putting a dollar bill. It's not about well tucking into the undies or something like that, you know, Um, yeah, we we a lot of fans, but, you know, it's it's over the time I. I agree. More confident, um, [01:04:30] to be myself. I mean and, um, not in people's face, but just be realistic. And not for 10 that didn't exist. That was a problem I had in the early days. How then? I'm thinking of, say, when gay liberation. And when things became a lot more political in the seventies, how did that impact on the rainbow scene, particularly if if you've got a a generation or a number of generations [01:05:00] that actually don't want to be particularly ruffling feathers. But how? How did that work? Well, my my problem answering that question is simple because I got married in 78 and we basically end up out of town. So I was more. When the kids come along, you're focused on them, Uh, occasion. Come and see me and that, and they'd always say hello and that but my on the scene in terms of the clubs and everything from about 1978 till [01:05:30] God knows when, um 96. Something like that. I don't know. I just was not insane. I wasn't on the scene. I went on a lot of business trips, and I might have gone and had drinks at the bar, but not not. I mean, when I went to Auckland on business, it was the Empire and Dudley playing the piano. He was a, um a New Zealand steward in those days. But he was he was he get to know people like that, and, um and they were comforting in sense that they're just doing what they [01:06:00] want to do. Um, but no, I was more or less off the scene. What was it like then? Seeing the media coverage of, say, homosexual law reform in the mid eighties because there was a lot of coverage. They were brave. You had bloody Norman Jones. Well, he was wicked with his bloody walking stick flying around fly across that, you know, he he he came from probably it up. But he, um he there were really, [01:06:30] really strong feelings. Dear, um, as I say, I was in the job I was doing. I come across it and I thought the people were very brave that were getting out there. Ironically, David Hindley worked for TV, and I did not know that I worked with David, but I never really thought what he was doing was taking photos and things like that. I've been over to Vietnam to to where he's been over there now in, um, Cambodia or no, Vietnam [01:07:00] was Cambodia. Cambodia. Um and he knew he was in Cambodia, and, um, he was amazing. I mean, I. I moved into sorting out, setting up the television archives in New Zealand in 1982 81 82. I spent 10 years there, so you get to know the importance of holding on to stuff and all that sort of thing and balancing and bringing in computerization. What to do and and the idea [01:07:30] of make access to it was a hell of a lot easier with computers now. But I I'm just looking out at the blue sky while we did this interview, and I'm thinking I do a lot of blue sky stuff. You you had to go on a pedestal and just think way back and the BA basically in the blue skies thing was that archives have to be accessible for everyone. And, um, what's the point in doing all the stuff? And we used to have people who were all doing and I'll keep it, I'm gonna keep it. I look after it, but not [01:08:00] looking at the other side of it. And of course, now what's forced them open a lot is that money is required, and you've got to get out there and get some money. I mean, it was in my day, I had stuff everywhere. So, um, the first thing was rounded up off a from Dunedin out of a panel beter shop in and things like that. But it made me very aware. As I grew along, I went to conferences, And I thought, Gee, this is a big industry, a very big one. And, um, I end up writing the rules for the, [01:08:30] um, collections in New Zealand and, um, people like Jonathan Dennis and that were helping me along on the side. Um, we took over the national formula. Um, in 1990 I think it was my role there. People said, Oh, well, he bought it and I said No. I said, What I want for New Zealand was the fact that they had a newsreel from 1941 the current day under one roof. And not only that protected, that if TV NZ got sold that [01:09:00] they wouldn't go overseas. I mean, we'd have to all those sorts of things. So a lot of things like that we go through and it makes you important. And that's why I've kept a lot of notes and that what I've got, uh, on things, um, photos, some of the photos, I go back and look at it. Amazing. Um, so, yeah, it's your life goes along and at times where you can't it's going fast and you haven't got time. I mean, I'm trying to look for photos for you right now, and I'm know somewhere there. But there's about 20,000 photos here, [01:09:30] and I've already backed them up. But where have I backed them up? Is it on that? That this one? This one? This one you briefly mentioned earlier about, uh, HIV. And I wonder, are you able to talk about, um, how you became aware of that in the eighties? Yeah, Um, we just started stories about gay people and reality of personally. I just saw there was something happening. I didn't see it as affecting me because I'm in the the married environment with kids, [01:10:00] and I'm not out in the community, but at the same time, Um, but I was in broadcasting, Um, so, as I say, when I said about Mark one of them before, I did not know. They said it was cancer. I did not know at that stage it was HIV. I knew I knew he was gay. It was no problem about that. But I didn't realise that it was early days. It was really the right in the early days that happened, and the other couple of people I knew, um I only took an interest [01:10:30] in a in a sense, that who do I know? That could be possibly, uh, heard. And what support will they need? But it didn't really happen. Um, in later days, of course, we have body positive. I've been helping Ron is the sponsor stuff for, and I and that and the team. Um And it became more where I met people who actually heard it, and they were addressing it and, you know, sympathising with them Not not being soppy or anything like that. But just saying you want we're gonna go [01:11:00] go for a ride up to to some barbecue. Or would you like to come Not not ostracised and put them to one side and not wanting to know I never went down that track. But the HIV thing, um, to me, I didn't I wasn't watching that much TV I was making TV but I, I didn't watch it. Um but I didn't really do it. I didn't I as I say, I was in the archives by then and I wasn't making programmes. I wasn't editing programmes. Um, so no, I just can't really comment too much on it. I knew it was bad [01:11:30] did. Did you Do you think there was ostracism coming from rainbow communities to to people with? Yeah, I? I think it was, um, I. I just think that there were people scared, you know, that, uh, to get it. And, um, if somebody got it, they they they 50 50 yards away from them. You know, I don't want to know this person, whereas a lot of others gave support, but it was a great unknown. I mean, you didn't know quite [01:12:00] what it was, um, and we knew it affected gay people. But then we had that lovely little girl that got it. And then we had other things saying, Well, it's not just gay. Come on, this is a blood thing. And, um, that's why I When I was on Rainbow Wellington, I got a bit annoyed because if you were doing blood tests, you're taking blood donations. Then surely that blood must be tested before you put it into somebody. So why stop a person? A gay guy doing it? [01:12:30] You do do a blood test. The blood is fine and move on. It doesn't matter where it comes from. I don't know if they can technically say That's not in there, but all I'm saying is I felt ostracised and that I could not go and donate blood. Some people can't can't donate blood anyway. It's like having put a mask on or things like that or or taking the latest, Um, Covid. There are people who can't take it or or they need a lot of it because of I I things, [01:13:00] you know. What I'm saying is they don't take the vaccinations what I mean that, But no, I got annoyed that there was people there who should should have just shut their face, shut their mouth up and also step back and say, Dear God of grace of God, could go I And by doing so, um, they just learn a bit more and say, Look, you can't pick it up that way. Talking to them you're not gonna pick up ads giving them a lift in the car down to the movie [01:13:30] theatre or going to movies once or twice. Get them out of the house. You're not gonna get age and that that basically and I don't think people understood it totally. I think it has some really strong parallels for where we are now dealing with the covid epidemic. Um, we are what? Just coming up to two years, um, into the covid epidemic. And interestingly, in touch wood in Wellington. We we haven't yet. How had [01:14:00] an outbreak of the Delta variant? It doesn't seem to have been, I mean, all the way, but it's not been picked up in the waters. So So how has I mean, this is like, completely jumping, you know, to the present day, How has, um covid do you think impacted on local rainbow communities made them cautious? Um, there has been comparisons. I think some people will say, Well, ages is pretty bad, and this is pretty bad, but, [01:14:30] um, my friend has come back. Um, yeah, it's, um I think on all of us we've had to take stock of where we're at. I mean, let's face it. In the early days of of aids, um, some people were were not taking precautions and things like that until we quite a few people got seriously sick. So it was one of those things that was like, Do I have the flu injection? I'm not at my age, um, I I had it once and I got laid flat for about three days. But [01:15:00] maybe I should have had it. Um, but I never did. But I also took care of of making sure that I take care of people coughing and things like that. But my my do. My doctor says basically, I'm quite a healthy soul. And if I do get something, I'll probably fight it quite well. But then again, I've seen people. A guy that died and just recently it went very quickly. So you just don't know. You don't know? Um, no. To answer your question, really? Do the rainbow people I know are people [01:15:30] that are pissed off and people don't wear a mask. And what they saw on television yesterday is totally I don't think you would have seen a gay person there, and, uh, that was a kind of a mass protest outside parliament, and it was like anti anti mandate anti-government bring about the Communist Party. I mean, it really. It just got out of control. I mean, I'll give you an example of the demonstration. We went to the black church thing of, [01:16:00] um, Destiny Church. Right. Um, I, um that after it was over, we were I was standing up near the steps and there were a lot of Maori boys there and they were in a black shirt. They all came up, and I don't think they knew what the hell they were doing That, to be honest, um, as we're walking away down to, uh, town a couple of the boys, two of the boys were walking together and said, Sir, can you tell us where the the bars are? And, [01:16:30] um, what happened was IT it up? And I said, Oh, well, it's way up town. But I said, If you want an all night and you've got a blue night now they said, Oh, we're on the bus and all that, you know we'll be there But they said, Oh, we can go up there. At what time does it shut? So I told him I said, No, you of age? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, we were 18 and 20. So to cut a long story short and not going into too much detail, two of them end up dating with us that night, and it showed the hypocrisy of what had gone on in parliament before, They [01:17:00] did not have a clue that we were nice people. Not the same one being out there and, you know, trying to pick them up or anything, but came in the bar and then they they couldn't get back to the bus. So they had to go right out to Island Bay, and I wasn't going to run them out at that time of day. They were staying on the and but they didn't want to go back. So just there. And we took them down to JJ's for breakfast next day, shouted out and sent them on their way. They came from, um, it was [01:17:30] Victoria. But the thing was, it got me. The black said, This is This is all bullshit. Absolute bullshit. Um, and they they were down. They want to come to Wellington to work. And also they had rallies down here who happened to be on the streets, as went to he came down to part of one of them. So that was a hypocrisy of that. Um, the other hypocrisy of of was when he turned up at, um, buyers fundraiser [01:18:00] for kidneys in the, uh, street thing. A big thing when he walked in with and his wife organised and was used to be my flatmate and living here, But he, um they were the whole whole show stopped. Everyone there was you could drop The penguin came as he walked in That thing, it was about 100 people there, if not more. What the hell was he doing there? And there was a table book for them over there. And of course, the and all his bloody wisdom [01:18:30] come over to say hello to me. Come and meet my friends, and I'm going Oh, my God. I can because I know George Junior a long time, and she she she went over and said Hello. Thank you for coming, But who have fucking do sort of conversation? Um, but no, he it was, um those those are her. And I was saying she she wasn't too bad that well is gay, you see? So and he's right under the wing. So it I just can't work it out. And and now he's [01:19:00] in his sixties. Now he should know what what's black and what's white. But but I From my experience of it, it is, um I see those American things on town, Big clam and all that. And I think you're not doing too bad at that. And then you see the Harley bike and you see the other cars and that, and going around swanning around down Queenstown and God knows what when you're supposed to be in Auckland, Um, yeah, it It's just different, different world to [01:19:30] me. I just don't comprehend it. And considering what? That we're trying to get the Maori people vaccinated to save, um, to try and reduce that and young ones who's leading people. He should lead them to the right water. No, it's It's to me. It's just weird.
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