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Well, I. I was born in England. I was born in Wimbledon, in England. Um, I'm I'm one of four Children. Um, and I have an older brother four years older, and I have and then my parents had a second family. So I have a sister who's 16 years younger and another brother who is 18 years younger, maybe 19 years, 18 years younger. So there's a quite a big gap. So it's like two families. Um, I and I was I I we we we moved into [00:00:30] a, um I mean, I come from a sort of a fairly, I guess you call it middle class. Fairly wealthy. Um, background. We, we we we moved into the country. My my parents ran a business and, uh, so I I grew up just outside Tomb Bridge. Well, most of my growing life. Um, and at the age of 17, I decided to, um, to come Well, you know, the short story is just decided to come to New Zealand and stayed with some some friends of my mother. And [00:01:00] and, uh, but then, prior to that, I had, uh I had some surgery and I I met my wife to be, and we corresponded for a year. I went back to England, got married in 1970 then and then came back here permanently with my entire well, my mum and dad and my younger family, uh, all came over together. So we settled in, um, on the north shore. We started a business here. We [00:01:30] had, uh, we had, um, two Children. Uh, then, um and, um and then, uh, about 1972 I guess it was, um, yeah, my wife's parents came out from the UK to stay with us, and we were touring around the south Island, Had a had a motor accident. My wife's mother was killed in that, and I had to identify her body. And that was my first encounter with death. And that really set me off on on a quest, [00:02:00] I guess, for the meaning of life, that would be my thing. And and I mean again, the short story from that was that I entered into the, uh, aa ministry a ministry, and, uh, and and I was ordained in about, uh what are we up to? Late 19 seventies as a priest and and I, I was initially curated at, uh, and I was vicar up on the Coromandel Peninsula, and and then, uh, and then I'm not [00:02:30] sure how far to go with this, because we need to go back a bit in terms of my gay, uh, discovery. Um, but, um, but I, um, as I say, I was vicar on the peninsula, and that was a fairly community based. There's a whole lot of communes and stuff up there and that, and I was really interested in, uh, in in in exploring Christianity from a community perspective. So, uh, again, the short story is that we we formed a trust and the peacemakers trust, [00:03:00] and we had 10, 10, 10 acres of of property up in and and we we we formed a community Christian community. Um, and, uh, and and but that that was a hugely stressful I mean, I was there for about eight years, and, uh, I burnt out. Uh, then I went back into the into the parish ministry again. Uh, but I mean, by that stage I had this. I mean, my journey had moved a whole long way. Uh, I was vicar at sorely for a while, [00:03:30] and then from from not Grey Lynn from Glen, I should say, And from from Glen, I actually came out there and and and And that was, uh and and that really was the end of parish ministry for me. Uh, I I then I I form. I then formed a company of my own and I started selling my services as as a minister, so I contracted. So I I ended up doing contract. I was I was the chaplain at, um, the [00:04:00] Mercy Hospital. Uh, for a time, uh, and I did some other chaplains at care facilities, and I started doing work and and I mean, that just sort of blossomed from there, So that's a potted bit up to there. So? So if I go back in terms of my gay journey, when I look back that there were definitely signs I I didn't recognise them. I. I was basically ignorant about sexuality in my teenage years. I, I always say, if my my mother [00:04:30] would I mean my my my father didn't play a big role in in our lives. My mother, I mean, for her to any any discussion about sex and sexuality would have been an absolute anathema to her. And I always say, Even if I asked her now about you know where the babies come from, she say, Tell me, I'll tell you later. I mean, that's the sort of person she is. And And I mean, back then I had no clues at all. But when I look back, I mean, I. I did have crushes on guys at school and and I can remember going going up to London and going into, [00:05:00] you know, porn shops and looking at magazines. And it wasn't It was the men that were I was attracted to, not the women. And, uh, and and it was, um but but it I had no, I had no clue at all. And I you you know, and as I say, really just followed what was expected of me and, uh, and and I got married, and we had a very successful marriage. I mean, there was nothing wrong with our marriage at all. Um, but when I was, um, at, well, when, um when I was at Saint John's College actually got very close [00:05:30] to a another or there and, um and he made a pass at me and and I And it just completely threw me. I It was just something that I I'd never encountered before. And and And I never thought, you know, we as I say, we got quite I mean, we did get quite deep together, and and and, um and I did say that when we we started talking about our attractions, as I say made a pass at me, and and it was something that I mean, it completely threw me, um [00:06:00] and but But from there, uh, as I say, I became curate at SAT and and that was back in the 19 seventies. And there was a There was a movement then called a group Life Laboratories, and, um and they were sort of week long. Uh uh, residential, um, Programmes. I don't know if you know about them. Um, and they they involved, um, you know, forming these very close little groups doing experiments, [00:06:30] group after laboratory, doing some work in a group and then exploring it as, as, you know, sort of as like a laboratory, Really. And and and but And in the process of that, I came to really realise that I did have a strong attraction to to people of the same G to men. And I actually went back to my wife and I said, Hey, guess what. You know, II I I'm actually really attracted to men, but don't worry. I mean, it's not something you know you need to worry about. It's just a part of me and [00:07:00] and, uh and I But of course I mean, it wasn't just a part of me, and as as time went on, it became more Well, as I say, My, my, uh you know, in my on my spiritual journey, of course, spirituality and sexuality are are totally intertwined. And, uh and so on my A as I as I worked on my spiritual life, of course I had to come to terms with my sexuality. And, uh however, being married, being [00:07:30] a priest, having Children, it was the last thing that I wanted in my life. So I tried everything not to be gay, and, uh, and I joined Exodus International. And I was, uh, I. I was part of the Exodus movement for a number of years. I used to write their newsletter and and and I went across to Melbourne to a conference and and I mean, it was it was a bit bizarre when I you know, when I think about it, it's really bizarre. And, uh and and they they decided that I needed to be [00:08:00] properly baptised because it was so they dumped me in the Yarra River so that my sins could be washed away. And, um uh, but I mean it it it just But that was actually I mean, it became clear to me that that that a lot of the people within that movement who claimed healing in inverted commas, uh, were in fact just repressing their sexuality. And and it was and and and in the group that I was part of here in Auckland, [00:08:30] I mean, guys were just getting it off with one another. And and so as I say it, it it It became clearer and clearer to me that, you know that that that, um um I had to come to terms with my sexuality. That was the, you know, And I had to acknowledge the fact that I was gay and I mean, it took a number of years, and it was a quite a painful process. And, um and we actually had a a sort of a crisis in the family. And and, um, we [00:09:00] had to sort of identify my wife and I had to identify our bottom lines, and my wife's bottom line was that I was her husband and the Children's father. But my bottom line actually was that I was a gay man, and we decided at that point that we needed to part company and and it was it was the most difficult, painful thing I've ever done in my life. As I say it was it was absolute. I mean, it just destroyed her And, um uh, and we, [00:09:30] as I say, but it just had to happen. It just had to happen. So that would have been in that would have been in the 19 nine. Yeah, and as I say III, I went and saw the bishop and, uh and I and we said we were We were part in company and why? And he he and he was absolutely useless. I mean, he said to us, he said, he said, and we were bawling our eyes out the of us and and, uh and [00:10:00] he said, Um, he said, uh, I, uh, um he said that that's not What did he say? That's not what I wanted to. He said, I know these things happen, but it's not what I wanted to hear. And that was the last we ever heard from him. And as I say, we I mean, it was, you know, we, um And from there, of course. I mean, you know, the whole parish thing became just untenable. Really. And I and as I say, I left the church and and moved on, and I actually ended up. Um, [00:10:30] there was there was a guy that I met, and I ended up moving in with him, which was an absolute disaster. Disastrous thing to do. Um, and, um uh, AAA and yeah, and that sort of fell apart very quickly. And I actually moved back with my wife for a while, But we I mean, just in the house, so that, uh and then, as I say, Well, then, I, I, you know, sort of moved on from there, and some months later I met, um, Hilton who who is a current partner and we've been together [00:11:00] for the last. What 15 years or so, and I and I think that, um, as I say, Hilton and I Well, we've we we've we went, we entered into Well, we've, um We we we've done a lot of business stuff together. We ran a, um we ran a, uh, AAA restaurant and a wedding venue. He's a DJ. So we did. Um, we, you know, we we had a, uh a restaurant and a 2.5 acre garden down in Hamilton. And we ran that for seven years. And, um [00:11:30] uh and then we've We've been back here in Auckland for the last, um what? Uh, three or four years? Um, but yeah. So we had a civil union down there, and we're going to get We've decided now that the marriage amendment bill has gone through that we're going to get married on the same day, November the 10th. Yeah, uh, so in the same settlement, So it'll be a lot of fun. Yeah, I'm really interested in in spirituality and sexuality and how they kind of work together. What [00:12:00] are your thoughts on that he's asking. That's a That's a big question, isn't it? I? I mean, I think if you I mean any any, uh, every person has to come has to integrate. I mean, spirit, spirituality. It's all about integration. It's all about integration. And every person has to integrate their sexuality and whether it be gay, straight and a lot of even straight. People often don't come to terms with their own sexuality and and it and I think it's, uh, it you know it. It's it's [00:12:30] that's part of the process of growth of, you know, is is, um discovering, uh, who one of my stock things is. Who is your God? And, uh and it's a discovering who your own God is. And of course, your God is the God that is that is, in your own being in your heart in your it's not some god out there or it's the And of course, my sexuality is exactly the same. It's it's it's nothing out there. It's to do with who I am [00:13:00] and what dwells within me. And and so those two in that sense are inseparable and and and if I if if I don't come to terms with who my God is, I will never come to terms with my sexuality and vice versa. If I don't come to terms with my sexuality and I'm not absolutely comfortable with that, then I won't actually will not know who my God is, and I will not actually go on the journey that I'm called [00:13:30] to go on. All of us are called to go on. You know that that spiritual journey what however it takes us, does that make sense? It does. But I'm wondering, Did you start out thinking like that? No, not at all. That's been an evolution I. I mean, I you know, as I say initially in my you know, back when with all I mean, I my, my my wife's family were quite churchy people. And, um So and we we you know, we did the church thing, um and, um, [00:14:00] Anglican church thing. And then when? When when my my wife's father was killed. I mean, that really was a, uh a a sort of like a kick in the pants, really. And and and I, I always describe it like a It was like an orange and the peel this orange just fell away, and I was left with the juicy core and Um, And it was, um uh, um uh, and and from that it was in that context of that juicy [00:14:30] core that that that I had an encounter with God, and I went through the whole charismatic thing, you know, all the speaking in tongues, but and, uh, II. I mean, that was all part and part of of that, uh, of that era of that part of my spiritual journey, I I was I was never I've always been reasonably liberal and progressive in my theology and in my understanding of it all. Um, but but, um, but I, I would have called myself an evangelical. Well, an evangelical, [00:15:00] charismatic liberal, Really. I mean, it was a mixture, um, but but then it has been an unfolding journey. I mean, I would now call myself more a contemplative, uh, and, you know, that's that. My spirituality certainly is far. I mean, my concepts of God of the divine are very, very different to what they were, uh, all those years ago, and so it has been an evolving, uh, discovery. And I mean, and and and as I say, even, you know, working with Exodus. I mean, that was [00:15:30] part of that, You know, recognising that you know that people used religion as a as a crop, you know, a sort of a prop on a croc, and and and, you know, and I, I really do differentiate between religion and spirituality. I think they're two very different things. You know, religion is more organised. Spirituality has to do with your journey, and and how you perceive yourself and the world around you and other people. Uh, and it's, um Yeah. So my concepts have been an E. It's been an [00:16:00] evolving process. Really? Can you describe a bit more about the repercussions of of your wife's mother's death? What? What it actually meant to you. And I mean, I'm trying to get an idea of, you know, what was it a Was it a fearful journey to kind of No, no, no. I think it was a realisation. I, I What happened there was that II I realised my finite uh you know, I realised that [00:16:30] then that that I wasn't going to live forever, that ever that I was going to die and that it could have been me. It was a road accident and and I could have been the one that was killed. So I think it it was It was a realisation that that that the time or life here is finite and that that so, as I say and And that sent me off on this quest for a meaning to it all. I mean, if it's finite, what am I here for? You know, what's it all about? What? What do I need to be doing? So yeah. So it was, um it it it it wasn't a fearful thing at all. No, no, [00:17:00] no, not at all. I mean, it was a It was a as I say it was It was a It was like, Just like I said, it was like the hard the hard skin fell away. And you were left with a with a soft core and the sweet, soft core, the juicy soft core which, which, which, which was the essence of, you know, it's actually starting to delve into that and to, you know, to taste it and to, um and to and to work with it. Yeah, So it I would It was No, it wasn't wasn't fearful. It was, um Yeah, it was more. An awakening. [00:17:30] Yeah, definitely an awakening. And did the same thing happen to your wife? No, not at all. Not at all. No, no, it was quite different for her. Quite different for her. And I mean, but that's yeah. I mean, I. I can't say I can't talk for her, but it was quite different for her. Yeah. Can you talk to me a wee bit more about Exodus? Because, I, I don't think I've ever talked to anyone that's gone through Exodus. Right? Um, first of all, can you describe what it was and how you came to? Yeah, well, [00:18:00] well, I came. I came to it through, um the There was a magazine called Grapevine that was doing the rounds back then. And, um, a grape vine was a sort of a AAA reasonably evangelical no more. It was It was an evangelical Christian based community magazine. I if you've come across it, um but it it was, um uh, and it was It was pretty widely distributed, and they and they had some interesting stuff in there. It was some of it was quite good, but and they had an article [00:18:30] on homosexuality and of course. And this the fact that this group exodus that, um and and so I decided I'd make contact with the they had phone numbers there, and I made contact with them. There was a guy who who was, uh he was the, um he was a I'm not sure what denomination, but he was a minister of Three Kings. Um, and, um, and II I met with him and I started doing some I mean and he his and their whole thing was, [00:19:00] Well, I, um they there was there was a There's a number of aspects to it, so I mean, it it it sort of emanated from America. And there was a group called Homosexuals Anonymous. And they they they use the 12 step programme as a as a means to to be to to to, um to find healing for your sexuality in the same way you would find healing for alcoholism or any other addiction. And and that And I think they they I think most people [00:19:30] in that sort of area would at that time would have would have thought of homosexuality as an addiction or as a a spiritual possession, and, um, and I, um And so, uh, yes. So I actually, as I say I was I was pretty desperate. Really, Because, I mean, I realised III. I mean, there were lots of things going on. I mean, I was becoming exposed to other guys, and, um [00:20:00] uh, and and And I was quite scared. I mean, I was really scared. It was, You know, I can remember how much. How much detail do you want on here? I can remember going down there. There used to be some toilets in House Street. And I can remember going down into the toilets there one day, and, uh and I thought, It's funny these guys are just hanging around down here. What are they? What's going on? What are they doing? And I sort of stayed. And of course, I started witnessing some [00:20:30] of the stuff that went on in the toilets down there. But but and I, I can remember. I used to go back to my car and I shook. I literally was paralysed, and I shook for at least half. And I did that several times for half an hour or more until I got my equilibrium back. It was I mean, it was pretty scary stuff. I have to say, it was really, really difficult stuff for me. As I say, I was married. I was a a priest, you know, It's the last thing I wanted. And then and then back then, of course it was. [00:21:00] I mean, it was still illegal, you know, There there's just a whole mess of stuff that that would just I just found it terrifying. And as I say, and I and I approached Exodus because I I really did want to find a way to deal with it. And and they and as I say, I mean the I mean to their credit, they that there was that there was that, um there was the thing. Homosexuals Anonymous. But then there was this other. There was a a research, um, psychologist called Elizabeth Mobley, who [00:21:30] who wrote a book called Homosexuality A New Christian Ethic. And she had a thesis about, um, the the the origins of of homosexuality. And her thesis was that, um uh, everybody in their, um, psychosexual development needs a a same sex bonding, and that's usually done with one's father. However, if, uh if that If that's pre puberty. [00:22:00] However, if if that bonding doesn't happen and you journey through puberty and you haven't bonded same sexually in in a to the same to somebody of the same sex in a non sexual way, then then her thing was is that post puberty that need becomes sexualized. So you are then drawn sexually to someone of the same sex, because so and her and and her, uh, her again. Her thesis was that you could revisit your, [00:22:30] uh, that pre puberty part of your psyche and and work through it with somebody. And I actually, we I actually explored that. So, as I say, we actually moved into a into a community peacemakers and and the other family we moved in with, they all knew this was going on. And so we actually wrote to Elizabeth Elizabeth Moley and we set up a contract, um, to to, um, to do this work. Well, it was of course, it was disastrous. It was absolutely disastrous. [00:23:00] And, um um but but, uh, and and as I say and all that, as I say, all that went together to help me to realise that Hey, you know, you're gay being gay is just who you are. It's not a part of you. It's not something you can get rid of. It's not something you can find healing from. It's, uh you know, as I say, it's It's just part of your essence of who you are. And of course, as I moved as I move through [00:23:30] that and and move through my my spiritual life, all that sort of started to move together so that I mean so Exodus, as I say, it was just It was just part of the, uh, part part of the process, really, of my coming out. And you said earlier about some of the members and Exodus and they were kind of just hooking up. Oh, yeah. I mean, how how did that work in terms of, I mean, did they feel guilt after doing it? Was there there was huge, lots of guilt, huge amount of guilt. Yeah, huge amount of guilt. I mean, I, I still I still meet up with a lot [00:24:00] of those people now. And of course, that's that. They've all come to terms with themselves, and they're all out. Uh um And, uh, yeah, so yeah. Of course. Yes, there was all that, and there was there was guilt. And I mean that because it that's what they did. I mean, it laid that guilt trip on you because they say, you know, it was sinful. I mean, I've you've got no idea what I've been through. Really? Bill Soy was another one. I mean, he he he exercised me from the spirit of homosexuality, [00:24:30] but he actually came to talk to the group one day. To this, to our to our group. And and and I and I've always been I mean, as I say, I've always been a little bit talkative and pushy, And, um and and I started to ask him because he you know, I mean, I started to ask him questions which he didn't like, and he suddenly turned on me and said, You've got a spirit of cynicism, brother. You see, Yeah, I never forget that. And, um, [00:25:00] but everything was a spirit to him. Everything. I mean, if if you you know, if if it didn't fit into his his framework, then it was a spirit or something or other. So but yeah, but he I mean, he delivered. I mean, I've had prayers for deliverance. Um, II I there was another. There was a couple. There was a an a an American Indian that came over here as well once. And his thing was I mean, you've got no idea. This is sounds crazy, but this is what I went through. His thing was that, um uh, that [00:25:30] that, you know, you have that in every person there is a There is a male pole and a female poll. And in, in, in, in normal people, they're separated. But in gay people, they crossed over. And so the the essence is to uncross them and have them independent. And and so and and again, I went through all this stuff with this bloody American. I mean you. I mean, if if if if there was anything that could be done, I tried it not to be gay And, uh and it was Ridic Well, it wasn't ridiculous. [00:26:00] It was It was just part of the I mean, it was just part of the growing awareness, and, uh and it's, um uh, and it took me and it took me a long time. It took, you know, I mean it took me over 40 years, and, um, and that and I Do I regret that? Not at all. I mean, I'm glad that I was married. I'm glad I had. I mean, I regret you know what I did to my wife and how damaging it was for her. Um, but I don't regret having Children grandchildren now, [00:26:30] and, um, a a and and And I mean and the experience of life as a whole. But I mean, but and all that's come together to make me a, uh, a much more compassionate, um empathetic, uh, understanding man. I mean, I you know, I I mean, I. I don't judge anybody else for what they for where they are or what they do. It's I mean, everybody has made me realise that [00:27:00] all our journeys are, uh, individual and unique to us. And we have to do that. Whatever. You know, that's part of what Why we're here is to do that work. And, um and and yeah, and we and we each need to do it in our own way until we come to a place where, but it I don't know that it ever ends like I like you know, every now and again, I think to myself Oh, well, you know, I I'm I'm 64 now, and I've done it all, but I haven't You know, [00:27:30] I'm in. I'm just in the process now of going through another sort of, uh, well, I am. I am 64 and I'm dealing with with ageing, and I've actually befriended a guy of or befriended. I'm I. It's a long story. That's another long story. A guy of 30 29 and and he's my lost youth. He's absolutely my lost youth and and it's and it's and again, it's just, um and that's I've been doing some work with a psychotherapist just to work through that because it's, uh and and it is it's [00:28:00] part of I will never It will never, ever stop. I will. I will forever be, uh, I will never be a complete person because we're not. And and the journey is to keep aiming for completeness, wholeness, whatever that is, and and and enter that in a core of my own divinity. And, um uh, yeah and I I and I'm I'm pretty convinced that's an eternal journey. What do you mean, by the lost youth. Well, my lost youth [00:28:30] when I was, uh when I was about 16, I can remember going to Carnaby Street. This was back in the sixties. Carnaby Street was the sort of the, um uh, the the fashion centre of the of the time. And I can remember buying myself these outrageous clothes, which I would never ever have thought of wearing outside anywhere. And I used to I used to dress up in my bedroom. I used to put these tight, um, top sort of trunks on. And I mean, you [00:29:00] know, it was outrageous, and I always I mean, I'm you can see I'm I'm a pretty solid sort of guy, and I always have been and but I always I mean, you know, I always wanted to be the the sort of the Charles Atlas. The sort of the, you know, the the the nice body and all the rest of it. And but But back then, and of course, it was crazy, but but I actually ended up. I mean, I got married at 21 so I I mean, I actually lost. I didn't do all that stuff that [00:29:30] I should have done back then, I you know, And so there there was a sense where my youth was lost. I know I didn't I just didn't do Didn't do what I should have what I needed to do back then and I I and I I'm you know, in my journey I mean, I've done a lot of psycho, um, therapeutic work and and and, you know, and and my psychotherapists have said to me, You know, everybody has to deal with their teenage years, and if you if you're trying to deal with it once you've passed 40 it's actually quite difficult [00:30:00] because you make such a fool of yourself. And it's true. You do make a fool of yourself because you go back and you like, here I am at 64. I fall in love with a 30 year old, and it's not, actually, and I'm already in a very strong committed relationship, and it's not that that's going to affect that in any way. It's that I'm still having to deal with stuff that that that is not, you know, that is not appropriately dealt with. Can you describe for me your perception of gay people [00:30:30] um, over that 40 year span from from being kind of married in the church to now being an openly gay man. I mean, have your thoughts changed on gay men? Have they changed? In what way? Well, II, I guess, Like, 40 years ago, when you saw somebody gay in the community, What did you think? Um I mean, I think if you'd asked me if I if I knew any gay II, I don't know any. I've [00:31:00] never seen any. And it wasn't. It wasn't as I say, it wasn't until much later that that I I became aware. And then, um yeah, I think I know II I I. I think initially I of course, I was frightened of them of gay, of of gay people, and I and I, um And I didn't I would never have wanted to befriend a gay person because I would have been too scared. I think if I was honest [00:31:30] with myself, yeah, back then and as I say, I can honestly say that I don't know I. I certainly didn't. I mean, if I did, you know, I would certainly have. I certainly kept, uh, anything of of a gay nature at an arm's length. Can you talk about the church, the Anglican church and how it relates to gay people? Pen, the Anglican Church is a I mean, [00:32:00] I. I, uh, I I have a love hate relationship with the church, and and, I mean, it's more hate than love And, um, I, I, uh and and and it's been, uh, I, I think the church, the Anglican Church in particular, has this, um uh, II. I mean, it's what it's like. It was like the American Army. If it, you know, it's, uh it was a question of, um, you know, don't tell and it doesn't matter. And it's hugely hypocritical, hugely [00:32:30] hypocritical. And I mean, there's a huge number of gay people in the closet in the church. Huge number and and and and it's, I think it's just, uh, well, I, I mean, for me, Um, the the church is supposed to be the Embraer of life of people. Uh, and and there are segments of it which attempt to do that, but, uh, but but on the whole, I mean, the bishop at the time when I came out said to me, uh, he [00:33:00] said to me, um, if if anybody if anybody lays a complaint against you in any way whatsoever about your sexuality, I will have to be the bishop. That's what he said. So in other words, in private he he was he was wasn't uncomfortable with the fact that I was gay, but the fact that he was the bishop, he would have to he would have to toe the church line, and he would have to censor me in whatever way he thought that was appropriate. Well, I, I mean, that irked me enormously. And as I say, the church has never offered me [00:33:30] or my family any pastoral care whatsoever in terms of the the the pain that we went through and the and the journey we've all taken. And even now, as I say, I mean, I'm out on a limb. I mean, I'm out on a limb in a lot of ways, because, as I say, I mean I. I basically I mean I. I contract. Even now I do some work at Grey limb, but that's contractual, and it's quite outside the normal parameters of the of the of the way people operate within the church. So yeah, I don't And and I mean all the debate at the moment about, [00:34:00] uh, you know about the marriage amendment, Bill, and I mean, it's just I. I mean, I just think it's a I Well, I don't know quite what to say. As I say, It hurts me. It irks me and and I have no time for it whatsoever. So as I say I, I differentiate between spirituality and and religion. I think all that stuff's religion and I just think it's unhelpful, quite frankly, just unhelpful. I think it's destructive. I think it, uh and it's it's It's destructive in so many ways because, [00:34:30] you know, there is the church talking about enabling people to to discover divinity to to to to move towards wholeness. But in actual fact, it then becomes a barrier to that in it's, you know, in its intransigence in terms of accepting gay people. So what was your coming out in terms of coming up to the church like? Very difficult, very difficult. I mean, we we because we didn't initially [00:35:00] I mean, we we just parted company and we didn't tell the church why and I I always remember we had some quite good friends in the in the parish at the time. And, um and they just couldn't understand what was going on, because, I mean, we seem to be the, you know, the ideal couple and family. And, um and, um and in the end, actually, it was Jill, my wife, that she actually went and spoke to this couple and, uh, and told them what was happening. And and [00:35:30] and And he came straight down. He came. He he just walked out of the house, came straight down to where I was to where I was living, and he said to me, Why didn't you tell me? He said, I thought you'd run off with another woman and I was I would have hit you He said, Oh, but you're gay. So that's why it's quite a gay, which was really lovely. I mean, you know, of course, there were people. I mean, once, of course, I did come out completely in the parish there. There were those that were, you know, I mean completely, uh, homophobic and just [00:36:00] would not accept that whatsoever. And as I say that was that was really as I say the end of my journey in the church as a paid employee, and, um uh, because I mean yeah, it it it I mean, I it's fine as long as you don't if you don't talk about it, and it's and that's the way the church basically operates. And I think most, most gay people that are openly gay either either feign, uh, celibacy, which is a lot of crap, or they, um [00:36:30] or they move aside from paid employment in the church. And so you know, so sort of have some more flexibility. I guess you mentioned earlier about kind of ageing. And I'm wondering, as a gay man now, are there differences between ageing as a gay man and ageing as a straight man? In your view, well, ageing is ageing whether you're gay or straight. But I think that there there, I think it is. I think there are differences in that they are that there are not the [00:37:00] facilities or resources to, um I mean, being gay, gay and straight. It is like being, um, lesbian or gay. I mean, they're all very different. Um uh, communities or very different ethos in terms of the way that, um, people, uh, live and operate and, uh and I think that certainly it it I Well, I one of the one of the chaplains I did in a resident dental care facility there was There was a guy there [00:37:30] who, uh, who, um he needed, you know, full-time residential care. And, uh, and he was clearly gay. But he was unable at that stage to be able to express himself as a as a gay man. And, um and I think that had he attempted to do so that it would have been extraordinarily difficult for him for the for this particular facility. Uh, you know, I mean, it's OK for guys to put up, you know, girlie [00:38:00] pictures in their rooms, But it's not OK for guys to put up guy guy pictures and and and, you know, and I and he he he was a hugely depressed man, and and And that stuck with me a lot. I mean, and I realised there isn't There isn't You know, Um um I I it it might be getting better. Now I'm I'm actually starting a some new I'm starting work in a new facility. Um, just In fact, I've just started, and, um and and and certainly [00:38:30] their attitude is far more accepting and open than it was back then. But but nevertheless, it's, you know, the the the staff. There's a lot of, um, fairly, uh, conservative staff. And who who I? I I'm much I mean, and I don't know, quite it'll be interesting to see how it all pans out, as I say, um, as as as I move on and they all know that I'm gay. I mean, I'm openly gay there, and there are There are clearly other openly gay [00:39:00] people on the staff. But there are also, as I say, a lot of very conservative Christian people on the staff, and and it'll be interesting. But I mean, the management itself is very, uh uh, accepting and inclusive. And, uh and it made it very clear that that that that if you know, if I'm working there, they expect my family to to to be part of that as well. And they have no problem with that, but it But as I say in terms of residence, Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how much has changed. Um, as [00:39:30] I've been out of the working in aged care facilities for some years now. Um, so it'll be interesting how it's changed, But But I still think that that, you know, it's not set up for gay people or, you know, I mean, it's it's set up basically for straight people, and, um uh, and And there is a difference with that example of of the the depressed chap. Do you think it was because of how the staff treated him or how I treated him? I, I think I think [00:40:00] it was II. I think it was that he didn't. He was a square pig in a round hole. He just didn't fit there. And he knew he didn't fit and he didn't. I mean, he just didn't fit there. And he knew that, and it was. And and he he I mean, he never actually openly, and he never Well, he never openly declared that he was gay, but it was clear that he was. And and and even as I reflect now more so I can he definitely was, um but, um uh but I mean yeah, I. I think it was more. It was not Not really the attitude. [00:40:30] It was more that he couldn't be himself because he was, as I say, I in around hole. So what do you think could be done differently? There's been a lot of conversation about, you know, having residential care facilities for just gay people. But I think that I mean, can you imagine the gaggle of gays together? I mean it Happy hour would be incredibly funny, but, uh, um, uh, yeah. I mean, there has been talk about that, and I know that there was [00:41:00] there was a the Methodist church, actually. Did, um, explore one of their villages in Mount Eden a, uh, a cottage for gay people. And I think, and and and and I think with a degree of success. But I mean that it didn't go any further. Um, but but yeah, I mean, I, I think there just needs to be. And I think that there is. There is, um there is a growing acceptance in the community and in society at large about gay people, and I think that will inevitably, um, philtre down. [00:41:30] Um, however, as I say that the, um you know, aged care facilities tend to employ Pacific island people, and they tend to have very strong, um, conservative religious views. And I think you know that there are. I mean, you know, there are things that will need to be attended to in terms of of enabling staff to accept people of different differing sexualities. And, uh, there's a lot of work to be done there, so, yeah, I mean, where whether whether an exclusive and gay [00:42:00] or, uh, you know, facility it is feasible or not, I really don't know, but but certainly there has to be some work, and there is I mean, I know there is work being done. I think that just recently I was reading that the, you know, across aged care facilities. They've actually there is some, um uh there is a group that is, um, putting out some, um, information and, uh, and and, uh, trying to assist aged care facilities to be more inclusive and an understanding of [00:42:30] people of of varying sexualities. It's not just gay. I mean, it's transgender. I mean, all that stuff I mean, it's, you know, it's it's hugely difficult when you're working in those facilities. You you're working as an openly gay man Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I don't hide my sexual. I don't hide my sexuality at all. And has that, um, proved useful in in terms of dealing with residents? Um, well, yes, II, I think. I think generally speaking, as people age, they [00:43:00] do. Well, no. Yeah, um difficult. That's That's a bit of a generalisation, Really. I mean, I hope one would hope that as people age, they become more accepting. And I think there's there is some So I think there is a truth in that. And conversely, I think the younger generation now are far more accepting, inclusive of of, of differing. Um, well, different cultures and different sexualities. I think that's that is definitely happening in society at large. So yeah, I. I mean, II. [00:43:30] I think being openly gay, I think, actually helps people. I mean, I'm human, I'm I'm you know, and and I think I I if I If I start hiding behind saying if I start hiding in any way whatsoever, then I I'm not true to myself. I can't do my job properly and, um, you know, and people need to take me as as they find me as I as I take them as I find them, and I think that's actually helpful. So yeah, so So being openly gay, I think, is a helpful thing because it makes people realise that you're [00:44:00] human and normal, and there's, you know, there's you're not gonna I don't know what they expect, what other people expect, but that that's just part of being human, part of the human spectrum in terms of your own ageing. Are there things you think about in terms of like, uh, financial security and legacy is not important, But financial security is And and as I say, I mean, my my my journey has has not I mean, [00:44:30] I I've never I mean, I've gone through some, um uh, I. I mean, a whole lot of stuff that I've done in my life has not been financially. Uh, well, yeah, rewarding. It's been rewarding in stacks of other ways, but I've never I've never accumulated a lot of money. So, um and so that's the concern for me now is you know, as I is thinking about what? How am I going to you know, what am I going to do to to support myself as I move into my latter years and I and and [00:45:00] that's and it is an issue. And I don't I. I haven't resolved that properly yet. Um, but yeah, I mean, it will II I have. I mean, I have faith. I've never I mean, right through my life. I've really never I've I've always lived on the edge and, um and I've and I've never gone without it. It's been quite remarkable. And it really and and I and And And I as I say with what I have, I'm generous, and and people are generous with me. And I think [00:45:30] that, um, yeah, but but yeah, I. I am concerned. You know, You listen to all this stuff on the radio. I was just just just as I parked my car. There was an article on the radio and they said that the that the commissioner for the whatever it is, um, A for the, you know, superannuation said something about, uh, you know, people will need to have at least 333 to 2 to $400,000. Uh, you know, in capital to be able to have a comfortable retirement, if they're going to live, you [00:46:00] know, including the superannuation. Well, I haven't got 2 to 3. I haven't got that sort of money anywhere. And I'm thinking, Oh, God, you know what's gonna happen So I'll be living on the bread line, But I won't be. I mean, II I, as I say, I'll continue to Things will evolve. I mean, we'll be fine, but it it is a concern. So I do. I I mean it. I mean, my minute I it off on the it is a concern. Yes. One thing you you you didn't seem too concerned about was legacy. And and [00:46:30] because because my my Children and anybody else I mean, they have to live their own lives. And, uh and I you know, um, I don't expect I don't expect my parents to, uh I mean, it would be nice if they left me something, but it doesn't. I mean it. It it it. I mean, I'd rather they spent their money on themselves and did what they wanted to do, rather than, you know, leave it for, for for their Children. And and and And it's [00:47:00] the same. I really I mean, my kids, they don't, um I don't know there's nothing in here, so but it doesn't, uh, it doesn't. It's not really an issue. I mean, III I don't think leaving legacies is a big thing for me at all. I. I mean, when I'm gone, I'm gone. You know, people. So I mean, some people, I mean, I hopefully the legacy I leave is is an imprint on on on the way that I've lived my life And, uh, and and And that, uh, and the way that I've [00:47:30] interacted with other people and hopefully, uh, you know, that that will be the legacy that I leave rather than anything financial. Um And and I mean, And when I'm dead and gone, well, I always remember, as I say, even in in the ministry. You know, when I was, um, you know, working like a Trojan. And people said people used to say to me, You know, look, if you drop dead now, they'll say, Oh, look, Keith dead. He's going to be the next vicker, and I mean, and that's exactly how it is. You know, life goes [00:48:00] on. And, uh so when it when it comes to legacy, yeah, if if if the only legacy that I would hope to leave is that I would that I have left an imprint. And of course, we've all left an imprint, and we've all contributed one. Hopefully, it's a positive imprint that I leave and that I've managed to assist or enable others, you know, in their in their journey through life. Shortly you're coming up to your marriage, and [00:48:30] I'm wondering, can you tell me, uh, why things like civil union and marriage are important to you and the difference and and And what those differences are for you? Yeah. When? When the when the civil Union legislation came through. I mean, I've I've been 100% supporter of civil union legislation, and and I was not really overly fazed about it being marriage or not. Uh, I. I think that civil union legislation actually enable people to have exactly the same legal rights. Uh uh, you [00:49:00] know, either straight or gay and and that civil union actually gave people an option. Uh um, not to be, uh, and even for straight couples not to, um to buy into, uh, you know, all the historical trappings of marriage. So but but and so and I And and And I've always thought that having a civil union, um, was a, um uh was a way of, uh, of of entering [00:49:30] into, uh, a a AAA sort of main more mainstream societal thing. And, uh, you know, um, it was quite funny. I mean again, when? When The When The civil. I mean, when we were down in the all that legislation came through and Hilton and I were on the front page of the Waikato Times and, um, there was a picture of him and I almost kissing. And it caused such a fra down there. It was absolutely unbelievable. And, uh, and we had we had threatening letters [00:50:00] and phone calls and and people writing cancelling their subscriptions to the Waikato Times because I thought it was disgusting that these two men were kissing on the front page and it was really quite funny. Um, but but, um, and and that and actually what happened was that when the Because when we moved down there, uh, it was a It was the year before the legislation went through, and and I knew one of the reporters on the on the of times and she said, I'm doing an article on on, uh, you know, same sex couples or or on [00:50:30] civil Union. And could I interview you and she And so she came and took a picture and she did an interview and she did this magazine article in The Times, which was really quite really balanced, and she had it was really good. But then, as I say that the year later, when the legislation went through, they rang and said, Seeing as we did this article a year ago, can I ask for your comment after you know, tomorrow morning? Because once it was late at night that they were voting and and so I said, Yeah, give me a ring. So they gave me a ring and then they said, um uh and they asked me [00:51:00] some questions and I. I commented, and and they said, And the reporter said to me, Are you are you and your partner going to have a civil union and said, Well, I actually haven't asked him, But anyhow, I got off the phone and, uh and uh and I said, Oh, that was the I said to him, and that was the way I came at times and I got down on my knees and said, I said And he asked, Oh, III I You know? And I said, Uh and he asked if we were going to have a civil union. So I So I got down on my knees team there and then and said, Will you civil unionise me? You see? And he said, How stupid idiot you see? [00:51:30] Well, anyhow, half an hour later, the reporter rang back and said, Oh, should I call you the reverend or Mister? And I said, Look, you can call me what you like I don't care So anyhow and so he said, Oh, I think I'll call you the Reverend I said that because he was obviously going to stir it a bit and I said, Oh, that's fine, It doesn't worry me and uh anyway, the, um and I said to him and I said You did ask me if we're going to have a civil union and I said, Well, as it happens, you know, when I got off the phone, I got down on my knees and proposed to see and he said, Oh, wonderful, wonderful. So [00:52:00] and and the headline with this picture of us almost kissing was, um, clergyman gets down on his the boyfriend. That was the headline you see in the paper with all its innuendo. It was hilarious, really. But but yes, So I, uh, and and I'm And as I say, I've been a great fan, and I and I and I wasn't really keen for pushing the marriage thing. I thought, Well, that's fine. If straight for when they get married, that's fine. You know, Civil Union does provide [00:52:30] an opportunity, uh, to be recognised by society and to, you know, and and to to to have some legal recognition. So that was and it was good. We had a wonderful civil union. It was a great, great great day. But then when the marriage when you know, when the marriage Amendment bill went through, Well, I mean, civil union sort of becomes defunct in a way, I mean, it's, um, I. I mean, it's, um and and and and it sort of. Then it's sort of shifted the [00:53:00] it shifted the dynamic so that you know, now I mean it. The dynamic is back to marriage again. So and and I think that. It's, um and we're and we're doing it because, yeah, it's a again. It's a way of moving the gay community into the mainstream, And, uh, and and And I think it's really important that that you know, that we do that. I mean, we we're people, and we are part of society and and and, you know, and [00:53:30] that now that, uh, that legislation is recognising that more and more. Um, I think it's it's it's just right and proper that we should actually, um, stand up and and, uh and and and enter into that I mean my view of marriage any. I mean, my view of relationships is, uh, you know, I mean, IIII. I mean, we're complex people. We're comp complex creatures, and and and we have multiple relationships at multiple levels. And so I mean, [00:54:00] um, both Hilton and I hold that similar sort of view. So, you know, I mean, I'm I I'm I'm certainly I mean, Hilton and I totally committed to one another. Um, and with that as well as I say, we, we we we also are quite comfortable for one another to have, um, other other, uh, relationships. Really at all sorts of levels, and I think it's and I for me. I know some people find that really difficult, [00:54:30] but that's, uh But for me, I think, um uh, you know, II, I think I I will never be able to fulfil myself, uh, with a single individual. I certainly you know, I am committed to a single individual in terms of partnership. Um, but I will never be able to find my, you know, complete fulfilment in Hilton. And he and he won with me. So, you know, we we I think it's, uh it's actually useful to [00:55:00] explore oneself with other people in all sorts of levels. I'm wondering, uh, moving gay people more into mainstream. Doesn't that have the possibility of of reducing some of the kind of identity of of gay people? No, I don't think so at all. And I think I mean, even if you look at other cultures, um, you know, we have a variety of cultures here now. Indian, Chinese, and and And And that that [00:55:30] they, uh, they, um uh, amalgamated. I mean, they become they're assimilated into into society as a whole, but they still they they maintain their own sense of identity language. Maori people there, you know, and and their culture. Um, however, it's it's actually it it it and that enriches the so society. And I and I think the whole gay that, you know, the gay community does that as well. I think that, you know, I, um II I don't think I don't think we need to lose a cultural identity at all. [00:56:00] Um, but I do think that we need to, uh we need to take advantage of those opportunities that we have that enable us to be able to stand up and to be counted as as, uh uh, as equal members with everybody else in the in, in the community, in and in society at large. And I think, you know, marriage does is is part of that process the photograph in the Waikato Times. You you you say you were just kissing or just about to [00:56:30] kiss. Who made the decision whether you you kiss or don't kiss in the picture? Oh, wait. I don't know. I I'm not actually sure what I mean. It was just It was just the I mean, perhaps we were just going to kiss. But the photographer obviously took the picture and decided to to use that picture in the Waikato Times. We had no choice. We didn't even know which one they're putting in there. They just came and took a whole mass of pictures in the garden. And that was the one they. So it wasn't necessarily a conscious decision to have a not [00:57:00] for help. No, no, no, it wasn't. It wasn't at all. It was that that was the newspaper's decision. Yeah, and sensationalising it was I mean, it was it was funny. I mean, it got me to a lot of trouble. I mean, well, with the church and the I mean, I I've had lots and lots of problems with that. I mean, yeah, I mean, with the bishop of the the Arch, where he was the archbishop. And, uh, when when I first went down there, I, um uh I mean, within the church, I mean, I'm I'm a priest in good standing in the church, [00:57:30] and and and And you're licenced to your local bishop, and, um and it's just, uh I mean, I, I changed diocese. So I was in the Auckland Diocese and moved to the Waikato. So I just went to see him and said, I've moved into your diocese and no, and it's it's you know, it's probably proper that I have a licence to you rather than the bishop of Auckland because I'm living here now And he said Well, with the The Waikato Diocese has a policy of not issuing new licences to, um to openly gay people. So [00:58:00] II I bought at that and I said, Hey, that's not that's not acceptable I said, I'm I'm not a priest of the diocese. I'm a priest of the province of the whole of the Church of New Zealand And I said, It's just a question of licencing and it's not. It's not that I'm new into the ministry. It's that I've just shifted my place of residence and, uh, so that he refused. So I went to the Human Rights Commission and, um and, uh, and they they were going to take up my case and my cause, [00:58:30] and I went back to the bishop. I said, I've been to the Human Rights Commission and and I'm you know, we're going to be putting a case against you so he said, Oh, don't do anything hasty. Don't think I and they and, uh and and they and And of course, I got busy with the business down there and and they accommodated me by maintaining my licence to the bishop of Auckland. But but But associating me with a a para church Anglican organisation, the Waikato, which was absolutely ridiculous. But then, um [00:59:00] uh, a little a little while later, I discovered, uh that there was a guy that was going to be ordained, Uh uh, in the cathedral who I knew had been Mr Gay A the year before. So I went and confronted the Bishop and and he's and he insisted that he didn't know that this guy was gay and I said to him, How How can how can you put somebody through a whole process of psychological testing of background checks [00:59:30] and, uh, and you know, of of a theological conversation and not know that he was gay when all I had to do was make one phone call and discovered he was Mr Gay a last year and bla bla bla bla And I said to the I said to him, You're either you're either very stupid or very naive. And he said to me, I prefer the latter. So I just got up and walked out. That was my last conversation I ever had with him just getting back to your marriage. Do you think [01:00:00] your or your upcoming marriage? Do you think taking vows will change your relationship in any way? Um, when we did our civil union, it did. I think, what it did. But by actually, and that's what marriage is all about, it's I mean, marriage is the is the I mean I mean in the in, in spiritual terms. I mean, it's sacramental. I mean, it's it's and it's an outward expression of something that's internal in terms of one's love for one another. And and, um, and society [01:00:30] recognises that and it and it. And it's, uh and it's quite potent, You know, when two people share their commitment to one another and their love for one another in in the public arena and and And I must say that when we when we did that in our civil Union, it did, it actually made our it made our relationship stronger. There's no doubt about that, and it made our and it made our relationship. I mean deeper that the that it was good. It was a really, really good and right thing to do. Um, this time around, we're not [01:01:00] going through nearly the same. Uh, in fact, we're gonna have a We're doing a joint. There's there's a couple that I did the civil union for. So they're joining us. So So we're going to do a sort of like a four. So and so we're both of us are converting out of, you know, converting our civil unions into marriages. So I say that wonder who's doing ours? She's she's going to sort of oversee it and she'll she'll do our our legal bit and I'll do this. So it'll be quite fun. But it's going to be far [01:01:30] less formal. But and I'm not sure, I, I think, um, I'm not sure that it will change anything. I think the Civil Union definitely did. It took us into a different level, and and and I and that and I know that marriage does do that. I mean, you know, commitments. Public commitments do do that for people, whether they were a civil union I'm not sure that this marriage thing will do that in the same way because I think we've already done it. And I think that all we're doing is we're shifting our we're shifting. Uh, our, um [01:02:00] the language that we use from Civil Union to marriage and and and and I and it and it even civil Union people talked about being married when in actual fact, they weren't They were in a civil union. And I think it's nice to be able. I mean, I think it's good to be nice to be able to say, Hey, we're married, you know? And we're not just in a civil union, we're married, and, uh, and we can call ourselves husband and husband or whatever we choose. And I was just talking about that this morning and, [01:02:30] uh and I mean, it'll be fun. Um, but it will, and it and it is. And it is an acknowledgement of the relationship that we have. So whether it'll change it any further, I doubt I doubt this time around because I think it did with the civil Union. But I think we're just shifting the language and we're shifting the legal, not not even the legal thing. We're just shifting the language, which is important, too. I have to say.
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