This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. You can search the text using Ctrl-F, and you can also play the audio by clicking on a desired timestamp.
In the 19 eighties, I moved from Wellington where I was born. I'm a third generation Wellington up to Auckland because my partner at the time had a job, Um, training and a job up there. And so I got a job there. And so Auckland is a new city for me. Got to know a lot of new people. I was working during the time that, um there was both state sector reforms happening. I became a union delegate. I got active in that scene and homosexual law reform Bill was introduced into parliament and that was something I'd [00:00:30] been supporting for ages. Even at high school, I had my parents in tears when I had signed a petition and had my name appear in the paper and they said I'd never get a job. And it will direct my my career and and life forever after. So then when the bill was introduced, you can imagine I was I was pretty excited. I I went to see Oh, who's the local support people? I got a badge from, um the hug people heterosexuals. I'm afraid of gays. Now I'm bisexual, so I feel a bit bug wouldn't really make sense. [00:01:00] Um, and I wore that to my job at the office, and the deputy superintendent called me into his office and said, You can't wear that in the office because it might upset some of the people that we work with. The clients, the training supervisors. Um, I said to him, Well, does that mean that the person wearing a cross around on the chain around their neck should also take it off? And he said, Hm, yes. Um, well, maybe, But didn't give a firm view on [00:01:30] that. Um, so I took it off out of respect and because he was the boss. But I was, you know, as I shared with my union delegates, Look, we all know that he's in the closet, He's gay, he's got a male partner. And personally, he will be happy if that bill goes through. But professional separate from personal. So but at the same time, we were dealing every day with people from the Salvation Army who were running training courses who were requiring supervisors and students on their courses [00:02:00] to go out and get petitions signed. They were going up and down Queen Street, making people sign things and the we are including people who were gay, gay supervisors, gay students who had no choice, and they had to do it or they'd be kicked out of their jobs or kicked out of the training course. So how did how did you know about that? Um, I knew about it because I was working with the students, referring them, and sometimes they would tell me things about Oh, isn't it stupid that so and so is doing it because we all know he's queer as And we also [00:02:30] knew about, um, one of the supervisors who the kids told me about him and his partner, and there was another woman who was doing it, who was very much keeping it on the down low about what was going on. But you can't hide things from students on training courses because we're talking in some cases, street kids who've been living rough, who've been, you know, dealing with issues that meant, yeah, they they would take any opportunity to get training and get a better life. And if that meant that, they had to say, take some stupid piece of paper and get people to sign and they'd do [00:03:00] it themselves. They didn't really on that level care. They thought it was just another case of being bullied by the system. So that was sort of where we knew it was happening. But at the same time, we had the clear message that we couldn't interfere because it wasn't actually going against the training they were getting. And as a government worker, there's rules and how you can do things. Um, this is this is, you know, the same Auckland central office where a former MP used to work during the day job and at the lunchtime would go out with a loudspeaker [00:03:30] and be yelling things against the government of the day because there was, you know, he didn't get fired, But it was just like there was a real separation of what you did at work. And what you did in your personal life wasn't something that the, um department wanted to know about. I mean, it wasn't approving, but it wasn't actually sacking people for it, because I think, as opposed to the days in the seventies when I sort of signed a petition supporting homosexual law reform and my cousin who was gay but wouldn't admit [00:04:00] to it, but he sort of said later that, Yeah, that's one of the reasons he went to Australia because he was scared that he would be arrested and thrown in jail. So for me, that's one of the reasons why you know, the law absolutely had to change. Aside from being fair, it's like it was affecting people that I knew, um, as a woman. It wasn't affecting me, but, um, I tend to actually take some of these things literally. You know, whether it's church teachings or, um, messaging [00:04:30] about being fair and kind to people and treating everybody equally and loving my neighbour. So, you know, growing up with that whole hang on, this isn't fair. And I suppose also my, um, grandmother, who was a church elder again, was doing that whole thing of. There's a reason why you have to ensure that everybody is treated fairly, because if other people aren't treated fairly, then you can't sleep at night, you know? So that's something that I suppose I grew up with. And that is, I think, part of the the [00:05:00] um Wellington lower middle class, poor background, which, if you didn't have much you still shared it with with people in in the family or or connection. So that fact that there was a law that meant that my cousin was scared to live his life in in New Zealand and went to a bigger place where he could be anonymous was like, Ah, this this just doesn't, you know, make any sense? So in Auckland, Um, I wasn't an organiser. I didn't know the people, but I went along to as many meetings as I could. I I protest [00:05:30] as I wore the badge before I had to take it off, and then I put it on the moment I walked out the door, Um, I went to community meetings, I bumped into an old school friend and he hadn't known that I was queer. I hadn't known he was gay. It was a really great sort of, you know, meeting because it was sort of affirming the fact that we could be more open because we weren't suddenly gonna have everybody sort of say, Oh, you're a nasty whatever. Um, and as the [00:06:00] whole um process went, went on where there were people on television nights and stuff in the paper and there were those who were total homophobes doing, um, really abusive language and other people saying, Hey, no, this isn't right. And a lot of people in the middle who like it didn't affect them personally. But when they saw some of the stupidities, they started saying, Well, actually, it doesn't affect me negatively. Um, I think, you know, give them, give them the law change. I mean, you know what's what's the harm? So [00:06:30] that was part of the Auckland context. And then because my partner, um, qualified and we moved back to Wellington and I got a job, um, in a different government agency and still part of the union and been able to actually go along to the real protests where we would be on the steps of parliament, we would be sort of in the in the streets and yeah, it it got quite heated because there were, I don't know, right wing Christian. Um [00:07:00] um, bigots yelling abuse. And there was us on the other side yelling back. And I used to be quiet and shy, and people now wouldn't believe that. Um, but it was a real feeling of camaraderie that when you're with other people on the same march or in the same space. And you've all got that same anger then it actually does give you courage to keep on going. And that was one of the things that I found really good I. I sort of saw people that I'd known in different [00:07:30] settings, like the woman who sold me my first feminist books from the Women's Liberation Bookshop where I used to used to go and read the queer magazines that came from overseas. You know, I didn't buy them because, like, my parents would freak, but, um and then later on, yeah, I did get things I started even, uh, I don't know, writing stories and poetry, some of which got published in in the, um was it pink news? One of the sort of publications? Pink Triangle. Yeah, I got stuff published in that, um, [00:08:00] and it was It was just all of those little bits and pieces that started coming together. And so, um, and it's a it's a bad cons, um, sort of confession. I know. But when I go to historical events like the glamour phones singing about coming out day and sort of saying Hey, we got this, um, law change in this year. And here is some of the photos. I stopped listening, and I start looking through the photos to see if there's that me on the front picket line. And I have seen film, um, extracts from when [00:08:30] the Salvation Army presented their supposedly 800,000 signed petition, um, forms, um, which we know had Mickey Mouse on, um, the as one of the signatories. And, yes, I'm there. I'm going, you know, sort of against it. And yeah, being part of history is actually quite cool. Even if you're not sort of making it happen, it's It's, um it it gives you a sort of sense of, you know, people can make a difference. So that by the time 92 came around when [00:09:00] part two of the homosexual law reform, um, bill, which had been dropped, which is the human rights protections, Um, then I was Yes, I want to be part of this group that is actually trying to get action on it. So I joined the umbrella group Common Ground, which had, um, gay and lesbian and, um, disabled people and people who were HIV positive and with the A i DS foundation. Um, a range of of other people who were left out of the first bill. And [00:09:30] some of these people, like the some of the disabled people, they'd never actually known anybody who was openly gay or queer, and but they were willing to work alongside them, and they actually learned things. And that happened sort of both ways. And so there that was where I first met. Um um, Charles Chevelle, who later on became a, um, an MP. Um, because he was a student, sort of, you know, act being sort of active for that. And, you know, some of the letters he wrote about, like, it didn't matter whether he was gay because [00:10:00] it was environment or because of genetics or anything. He still expected to be treated fairly. So, you know, those arguments started sort of really coming through, but the personal supporting somebody and being alongside them was probably even more part of it than just the Yes, There are rational arguments to support this. It was like it became, You know, we're on this side of the argument, not that side of the argument when you saw people like, um [00:10:30] oh, what's his name? Norman Jones. You know, absolute bigot who was sort of swearing and and and in the most, you know, um, disgusting terms, Um, about people. It was like, Oh, I don't want to be associated with somebody who is that vile and that, um, um evil and wants to harm people. So obviously, when you sort of look at where you stand in the thing, even if you don't know the issues you look at, who's on which side and which are the people I want to stand with. So that made it very sort of simple for for me and and [00:11:00] for, um, you know, other other friends, Um, and some of the people I got to know then, um I still know now and have a lot of respect for even if we don't always agree with each other, you know, like Alison Laurie. Um, she was sort of the leading part of the lesbian groups, and I've been kicked out of a lot of, um, groups of queer women because I'm bisexual, not lesbian, and, you know, like even with common ground, which was trying to get this human rights thing. They had a gays and lesbians against discrimination. But I was kicked out of that because I was bisexual and not lesbian. [00:11:30] And so you know, that er obviously annoys me. But at the same time, I don't leave common ground because we do have those common things. And I respect that there is oppression and that having a safe space is important, and I don't think I'm threatening it. But, you know, differences of opinion aren't as important as actually saying, What are we trying to achieve as a goal? And so over the, um, both in Auckland and Wellington at the time of the homosexual law reform. A lot of that was just [00:12:00] those incremental little discussions with the person on the bus, the the person at the bar and some people who didn't understand. And there's even people now in my circles who still don't understand who opposed marriage equality because their church told them they should oppose it. But I think we've actually in a lot of these spaces, got a more respectful discussion of it that, um, nobody I know who has any brains. Um, and I'm possibly excluding, um, Bob McCroskey [00:12:30] and, um Brian Tamaki, Um, actually would say nasty things about somebody for being gay or lesbian or bisexual. They might still about transgender people, but they wouldn't say the nasty The things that they would say more about, uh we're supporting traditional rights, whereas back in the eighties, yeah, they would say really nasty things. All gay men are paedophiles. You know, That was a frequent thing. That sort of came out in the media. But of course, the other side of it was [00:13:00] You can start turning around saying, But my friend Mark, he's not a paedophile, He's got a he's got a boyfriend. He just wants to, you know, live his life and be, you know, a normal sort of, you know, person When I say normal, I mean, um, having a job, having a sort of, you know, reasonable recreation, playing sport, doing stuff like any other New Zealander and not worrying about whether the police are going to be knocking on the door and sort of, you know, yanking them out of bed in the middle of the night. Um, so that whole sort of I think paedophilia argument started disappearing as people started [00:13:30] knowing others who were. You know, somebody they've known for years, maybe worked with, you know, they may not like them, but they didn't think they were criminals or somebody who deserved to be treated like one. So you saw people more people coming out because of the activism around the homosexual law reform. And in the circle I was in I. I think so. Now, obviously, I was in cities. I was in Auckland and Wellington. And so it's not This is gonna be the same for people in a rural community. Although [00:14:00] even there from what I know of, um, my my cousins who were in Masterton and some of my relatives down on the West Coast Um I think, yeah, there was an awareness that, um for example, Mary and Molly shared, um, a cottage. And there was only one bedroom and people didn't say anything about it. And that was the sort of thing. And in a way, it was a classic. Don't ask, don't tell that people sometimes stopped covering up and hiding [00:14:30] quite as much. They weren't always coming out and saying, Hey, I'm gay or lesbian or bisexual or this is my lover. But they stopped panicking quite as much. And so they might be seen more in public together. They might actually arrive at the pub together and leave together. So it was that type of little change rather than sort of really big celebrated ones. And that depends, as I say on where it was in Auckland. There were, you know, you were gay club, um, clubs and and [00:15:00] and bars and people were totally open. And there were, I suppose, in a way, um, some of the gay guys I saw who were a bit flaming when they were there, but actually still toned it down when they were in their work job, and you wouldn't always know it was the same person. Um, but they start panicking quite so much if somebody from their workplace saw them at going to a particular bar. So I think there was just it was on the edges more than a really, really major shift that that's were Were you out as bisexual [00:15:30] prior to getting involved in the activism? Well, you know that coming out is a process. Um, when I was, how old would I have been? 11. I told my classmates that I liked boys and girls, and the teacher didn't really know how to take that. But that was still the teacher who had playboys in the back of the classroom cupboard that I used to find quite interesting to look at. Um, when I was 15, I told my friends at school that I was bisexual, [00:16:00] and, um, they sort of weren't quite sure what that was and sort of said, Well, that's OK, but don't make a pass at them. Um, I was sort of went along to, um I phoned lesbian line and went along to, um, Lesbian Support group type, sort of at somebody's place. And oh, and she's the person who drives my bus, and that's really cool. But I was sort of too young to feel actually that comfortable [00:16:30] in this group of older women who were. I mean, I'm sure they were wonderful, but I sort of I didn't feel quite so. Then there was university and at times at university when my when I signed the petition, when I was about 15 or 16 to sort of support law reform, Um, and my parents, um, were in tears saying I'd never get a job and was this me? And it's like Well, yeah, probably. Um but that's not the point anyway. And so I wasn't making a big point and I wasn't dating, so it was like, [00:17:00] yes, but not sort of pushing. So each time I've come out to some people, not necessarily to everybody um, written letters to, you know, progressively more and more. If people ask I, I admit it. And it was quite funny. Um, not my current workplace, but a previous one where everybody knew I was by. But the boss said, Well, he had heard that, but he didn't want to assume it unless he had heard it from me. Why? [00:17:30] Why was it of interest to him that I even raise it? Oh, it was a complaint from a different manager that one of my co-workers accused me of flaunting my sexuality in the tea room because I talked about something and this was a woman who used to make crude jokes. Um and, uh, you know, do you have to buy because you're bisexual? And I sort of, you know, I can't remember what I said. It was just as well. I'm fabulously wealthy, isn't it? um um, but when [00:18:00] I repeated that to the the that particular manager Oh, yes, not appropriate. But it was like that was, you know, and so that was, you know, I. I sort of mentioned it to the other manager about, you know, Well, it'd been that that sort of complaint and, um and that sort of, you know, I hope that that wasn't going to happen again. And, oh, no. And he didn't know anything about, you know, the the thing. Because that's the thing that some humour is. Well, it's it's people being uncomfortable about [00:18:30] something and pushing it a bit. And sometimes if the person responds back then that's sort of OK. And I didn't like it, and it was a place that had an official EEO policy. But, I mean, I don't know if you know much about bisexual erasure. Um, and the fact that, um, yeah, as I said, I've been kicked out of gay and lesbian groups. Um, they did a a survey of bisexual unionists in the trade union, Um, con um, council, which [00:19:00] was a a UK sort of one. and they'd been required to do it, so they released the survey in December and closed us at the end of January. So you can imagine that's that we don't want sponsors. But they still got, you know, 53 bisexual unionists responding saying yes, they actually got worse, um, responses negativity in the workplace from gay and lesbian unionists than they did from the straight ones because the straight ones didn't care, but that the gay and lesbian sort of once felt that it was either space being invaded or belittling their cause or whatever their reasons [00:19:30] were. So from what? From having, um, bisexual. Yeah, well, partly the thing of you know, there's no such thing as bisexuals. Um, and if you're scared to come out, um, then it's sort of no good for for gays and lesbians. Or if you're a bisexual woman going into lesbian space, then, um, you're, um, running the risk of men sort of coming there or um, getting involved with a lesbian and leaving her for for, um, a man. And that's, you know, such a dreadful thing. And of course, it happens the same [00:20:00] way. Um, getting involved with a lesbian getting involved with, um, a lesbian Men's chicken might be left for another woman. I mean, you know, when you're saying bisexual erasure, that's what you're talking about there. Well, it's the bisexual erasure. Part of it is also that when you've got in through history or any other space, somebody may start saying, Um, LGBT they never mention the word bisexual And they by the end of the the engagement, they're talking about lesbians and gays. Um, and anyone who is actually bisexual is relabeled [00:20:30] as being gay or traits, depending on who their partner is. You know, like Ellen Cumming, the actor keeps reminding people I'm bisexual people. I've been married to women. I I'm now married to a man. It doesn't change who I am. I mean, you know, and that's a classic one, because even now, every time that you get a journalist sort of interviewing him, they will describe him as a gay actor, and it it it. So it's It's that when um, people do history of homosexual law reform, they talk about [00:21:00] all the brave gay and lesbian people who came out and who are active. And I know from personal experience that a lot of those other people I see in those are actually bisexual people who are openly bisexual. And they said so and it got dropped or they didn't use the word and they didn't describe themselves in a game. If they had a same sex partner, they got labelled as lesbian or gay. If they had a different sex partner, they got labelled as straight. And so it's like taking a whole group of people out of the the the the picture. And so, yeah, [00:21:30] when you're trying to sort of reclaim bisexual history, it is actually about Well, yeah, it's best if people do self identify, because that enables them to say, Hey, this is me. But labelling people when you don't know it's part of that current issue that's cropping up in some of the history works that, um, people who were labelled as girl at birth but who at a certain point in their life dressed in male clothing and took [00:22:00] on a male identity. Some of those histories of those people have been regarded as being butch lesbians, and that is, you know who they were. And now there's a move to sort of say, hang on. Were they possibly trans men and of course, the difficulty is they're dead. We don't know, but it's it's important to sort of say we don't know. And what we do know is that they were labelled one way at birth and they lived another way later on. And you know, either either possibility, Because otherwise [00:22:30] you don't you don't want to sort of erase either option. And that's one of the difficult things with history of sort of saying, Well, who's got the right to sort of say what actually happened? Because every story is authentic. And so my experience may not be the same as the experience of another person, even in the same room, but it doesn't mean either of us are wrong. You were, um, when you're when you're involved in the protest and so on around homosexual law reform, you weren't in involved [00:23:00] in any particular organising group? No, I was, um, a union, um, delegate. So I passed on information to the union members, some of whom were interested and some of whom weren't. But I wasn't an organiser in Auckland because I hadn't been there long enough to know people. I went along to more meetings in Wellington, but they were already a quite tight group and also that that thing of I wasn't joining a lesbian group [00:23:30] because I knew I wasn't welcome. That's why I was asking, Was it, um was it to do with, you know, were people saying, you know, come and be part of this with us? Or were they seeing you as as other? Well, I think with the from memory. And, you know, this is sort of, um quite a few years ago from memory, where there were open activities to hey, whether it's write a letter or get together and do something, Then it was OK to go in and put a little bit of time, But there were quite [00:24:00] a few of the activities, and I've heard Gavin talk about this where they were doing things like post ups in the night. And it was just quite a small group of people who were doing those things. So I went to some some meetings and I also around the same time, um, for a while was, um, volunteering a bit with what started to be the the AIDS Foundation. There was a precursor group, and I went to some meetings. Um, but my partner had started working actually supporting that, so I couldn't. So there were lots of things of Yeah, I'll do a little [00:24:30] bit. I might write a letter. I might do a thing. But I felt that, um, I wasn't I wasn't as far removed as a total neutral observer, but I certainly wasn't an organiser taking a leading role. And I really didn't have the personal confidence to sort of, you know, push through that. So, yeah, I could go to a group meeting. I could go to a protest. I could get, really sort of, you know, and, um, sort of engage with the other people I was working with. Um, And by the time I left the [00:25:00] Department of Health to go and work for the Department of Internal Affairs, then I was openly advocating for things and helped to start up a, um a queer workers, um, rights group, although and and did some support work for others. Although there were a few, um, lesbians who joined it, who said, Oh, we don't actually want bisexual women in it. Although it was me and one other bisexual woman who actually did all the hard yards of liaising with human, um, resources to say, Can we have, um, an EEO. Support group [00:25:30] for, um um, for, you know, queer workers. Um, when when was that? Um, that was about 88 88 89. Um, partly because we'd also had a lot of union activity over the state sector act coming through which, um, you're too young to remember, but I think I'm probably as old as you. But, um, once upon a time, back in the days of public service in New Zealand, all public [00:26:00] servants were employed by the State Services Commission and the State Sector Reform. Um, Bill, which was another national initiative, broke each department into being its own employer, so they could have different rights and responsibilities and contracts. And there was a lot of protest about it because it meant that you lost a whole base of shared information, of standards, of training, of everything. Um, but it happens. These things do. Um but it did mean that there was quite a, um a period where where union members [00:26:30] were all racked up trying to stop it, you know? And it didn't happen. So, um, then there was, um for me personally. As I say, I came to, um, back to Wellington DIA. And when, um, I got sort of sold? No, I wasn't welcome in that particular group because it was gay and lesbian, and I, for a while, joined a lesbian support group because there weren't any others that I knew of. And I said, I'm bisexual and they said, Oh, well, you [00:27:00] know, we don't know what that means, but you can join us. But by the time they'd got sort of, um, you know, when it was three members, it was OK when it was five members that started having questions. By the time it was eight members, they didn't need me anymore. Um, so they said, You know, we we have decided we don't want you anymore. And I happened to mention this to one of the, um, out young lesbians at my workplace who said, Oh, you should talk to Diana because she by and there's a by group. And so I joined the Bisexual Women's Group, which had started, um, the previous year, and I've been a member of that ever since. [00:27:30] And so that was, you know, quite good as having a support base to be doing things, and we did lots of things with that. But, um, I tend to join things, So I also joined the Pink Triangle magazine collective. Um, And at that stage, there was me and, um, eight men, um, writing articles and doing things. And I got accused of dominating these eight men. Um, it wasn't It was just, you know, I talked a lot. Um, and I joined the Victoria club committee because that, um, owned [00:28:00] the restaurant building. That's now the I think the White House or something. And Oriental Parade on the top floor was a social club that sort of people used to turn up for. And so I was on the committee for for that for a And did you go to, um, any of the lesbian clubs around that were in the eighties and nineties? Yeah. I went to one club 44 41 which was in, um, Vivian Street, and sort of. I went there because I'd been invited along and sort of I could see people playing pool, and, uh, somebody said, Oh, you're a bisexual [00:28:30] woman, aren't you? You're not welcome. And, um, I shut the door in my face. Um, I went to some of the, um, Amazon organised dancers. The dudes dancers, dikes out of debt dances at places like, um, the Brooklyn Community Hall. And there was another one in Newtown, and that was hilarious because it was a drag, um, one. And at the time I was flattened with Heather, who was captain of the Amazon's team, which is probably one of the reasons I could get into the space is because, like, Hey, she's Heather flat, mate. [00:29:00] You know, she's allowed in. So there'd be, you know, sometimes I'd go to parties. 30 lesbians in me. Um, So it's probably there, possibly and Heather for one of these, you know, Butch Dyke wearing an evening dress and a feather bowler. It was like, absolute classic, You know, there were there were some great sort of things, and, um but you still got the thing that, like, the Brooklyn dancers, were a little bit notorious in the neighbourhood. So, like me and a sort of a friend sort of walking in the street sort of before after it, young guys in the street yelling at us, you know, you're those [00:29:30] aren't you. And so I wasn't going to debate the definition or sort of point then, um, and at different times, I'd be dating a man or dating a woman and, you know, like sometimes an overlap. Um, but that wasn't the thing. You know, I'm who I am. And therefore, I like to go to space that I feel comfortable, and I don't really feel comfortable in straight space. Um, partly because, you know, men don't always treat. I mean, it's better now, but in those days, you know a woman going to a straight bar by herself, You know, Now, you know, if you're attractive, you [00:30:00] get picked on. If you're not attractive, Um, in their terms, um, you you sort of get, um, cold shouldered and, you know, So, um, queer space is a lot, you know, nicer to be in. Um, it doesn't sound like it's been that nice for you at all, to be honest. Oh, well, I mean, it's it's it's I still sort of get better interested from time to time. Um and I still have a have a have negativity towards lilac because my name is Kate and I book addict, And there is a library [00:30:30] that I was on the committee for two years, and then they sort of said, Oh, well, we're really, really not very comfortable having a bisexual who's with a man on it. You can you can join if you chuck your your your male partner. Um, but not so, um And I know there are other other women who are bisexual and are members, but the thing is, don't ask, don't tell if you're challenging something, then you're not welcome. If you're accepting the status quo and giving that [00:31:00] support to it, then you can get away with it. And, um, for one reason or another, ever since, um, I overcame that shyness, Um and part of that is that I persuaded a boss back. Well, I trained as a teacher, so I'm I'm actually a qualified secondary school teacher and that, you know, pushed me into teaching. And I, um, also got a a boss at a government agency to approve me going on a theatre sports improvisors course, which I said, this is great [00:31:30] communications training. So I went along with it, and of course, what they do on improvisers to train you to jump in. It doesn't matter what the ask is. You jump in. So having broken that inhibition barrier, um, it means it's a lot harder for me not to jump in than the reverse. Um, and so, yeah, so I. I tend to sort of speak out, But it's I'll tell you what's been really, really nice in recent times has been connecting up with the Queer Avengers, so that sort of I'm part, [00:32:00] it's it's gone a bit in recess because we had problems after a conference or during a conference. But there's still a group of young people who identify as queer rather than LGBT. Um and they I mean, you know, even the young lesbian sort of say that they don't support excluding people, and they really and they've got loads of friends who are not into labelling. And so we're a lot more on the same page. And the fact that there's a bigger age group gap between me and then then the sort of lesbians [00:32:30] who were excluding me for things is not the point, you know, it's like we see things the same way, so I sort of although we do sometimes have to negotiate how do we communicate? Because I don't have a smartphone and I don't use Tumblr. And so like, Oh, when I said message me, I meant to use an email and it's like, Oh, what's that? So I mean, it's not even a landline versus mobile phones. It's so that's interesting, but yeah, so So you're you're finding yourself more comfortable in in a in a place that identifies more as queer. [00:33:00] Um, well, yes or no. Uh, thing is, it's not that I'm personally uncomfortable. It's a question of probably my number one top, Um, emotion. On one level is anger. I get angry about things, and I like to use that anger to actually make the world a better place. So I've done a lot of things in trying to, um, like, you [00:33:30] know, the the total unfairness of how transgender people are treated in New Zealand. So when I was working at, um, the Council of Trade Unions to, I was able to contribute to drafting input into the employment guide sheet for trans people and to get that, of course, talking to to friends who are trans. Not that they were experts, but that they had personal lived experience of what helped them, what they found difficult. So being able to actually take that knowledge and use my brain to do something good and [00:34:00] not just be frustrated about seeing something unfair that I couldn't do anything about. So that's one of the things that for me it's like, Oh, there's something there. It's like whether it's a rock in the middle of the road and if I can sort of use a bit of energy to do it and I do sort of gonna put it there. And so it was really good with the marriage equality thing because there had been something going on for a long time. And so I supported it. Not that marriage is brilliant, and not that it's fair, but again equal human rights for for everybody and marriage equality, not gay marriage, you know, because the labelling is actually really [00:34:30] important. And so, um, some of my Trans friends don't have to get forced and remarried with a different, you know, document of identity, Um, because of the way the law was drafted. So that was really good. But it did also take away a bit of energy for those people who've that was the goal of getting that law changed through. Then you know they don't need to do anything there. I mean, and some people, it's just like, Hey, let's go back to the party And for me, it's like, Oh, what's the next big challenge? Do you think that was similar after the homosexual [00:35:00] law reform that people who are really actively involved in that then you know, took a breather or OK, I've I've done that and others can come in now I think for some people, it was because, you know, that was a A get in the hurdle. But because the law had been drafted in two parts and only part one got passed and there was still a tremendous anti discrimination thing, and they'd also been the backlash at the time, it meant there wasn't as much of a loss of momentum because one of the things that happens any time there's a positive [00:35:30] gain for social justice is that some people absolutely hate it. So you actually got more queer bashings after homosexual law reform passed partly because those people who'd come out and were more visible meant that they become more targets for people in their neighbourhoods who didn't like that. So, um, and that, I think, faded away again. But people, some people hadn't even been aware that there might be, you know, a gay person living in their neighbourhood. And, oh, some of the people [00:36:00] who were beaten up probably weren't gay. But again, there was that that suspicion thing, um, that they may not have been fired for it, but it didn't mean that things were totally comfortable And yeah, so that that meant that there was still an underlying things aren't quite right. And we need to do a bit of work. So some people failed away. Other people sort of stepped into the gap so that there was, um And then, of course, the other really big thing that was happening, um, in New Zealand at the time was more people were being diagnosed as being HIV positive [00:36:30] and the whole raft of awareness of what was happening overseas in different areas. And, um, a bit like the whole stonewall thing. I mean, that did people around the world in terms of awareness of, of issues and the other the bathhouses being closed down in the US it There were bathhouses closed down in in New Zealand, too. They may not have been as highly patronised, but they were still Oh, what do we do with this thing? And and, you know, it made people some people put in a lot of energy. There were the, like, the, um [00:37:00] the Catholic nun sister Paula Brett Kelly, who sort of spent years dedicating herself to looking after men who were sick and and dying and, um, I I had friends who were HIV positive, and the medicine in those days wasn't as good as it is now. And these are people who got thinner and progressively sicker and didn't tell their families and sort of died. And And we started having, um, funerals and so that there was a sort of coming together of people to sort [00:37:30] of, you know, to to miss them. Um, and over time, you know, the medicine and the support got better. But they were they were still banging your head against sort of brick walls. In terms of can we get the latest drug into New Zealand? And when I say we I, I put my hand up to volunteer I did a little bit of that. But what most of the gay and bisexual men wanted was somebody who was of their own sort of group and supporting them. They wanted buddies who were their friends sort of there. So, you know, stepping back and and and doing other things. But [00:38:00] yeah, it's it's, um it all sort of mixes in together a little bit. That sort of you're aware of things and you see something that might make a difference. And people who are getting losing out on a job, they may not even have got it because, oh, you're gay. Therefore, you must have HIV. Therefore, we can't have you working in the kitchen or so, like the the issues got mixed up together because that was people's understanding of it. Um [00:38:30] know. And then the rest of the time, you know, like there was there were good dancers. There were good sort of getting together with people, and, um um, personally, I sort of Also, during this time, I bought a house you know, had had things there at some stage relationship broke up, sort of dating people, you know, lots of those. Those ongoing things that sort of just happen on on a personal level. And, um, some of that was good. Most of it was really And there are still, you know, people that I've got to be friends with, But [00:39:00] I don't always find it easy to talk about just social little things like I find probably for me, the scariest people are, um, conventional straight, um, feminine women who can talk about flower arranging or share domestic tips. And I, you know, even though later on I became a mother and I might understand these things, but it still just feels a bit weird. I mean, [00:39:30] II I studied science at at University. I mean, you know, other other causes of anger there, like I did, um, Stage one, physics. And I got, um, bullied out of my stage one tutorial because I was the only female in the class and the tutor didn't like not being able to tell dirty jokes. And when I complained to the head of department, it was like, Oh, he's not very well. You won't be there much longer. We'll give you a pass to the subject anyway. Um, but I mean, that's the the level of sexism. That was sort of back then. And that's the thing that sometimes there [00:40:00] are so many different piles of discrimination that it's hard to untangle. You know? Are you missing out because you're a woman? Are you missing out because you're queer? Are you? Um I mean, like, I was white. So I wasn't missing out because of my my heritage. Um, but I'm aware that, you know, some of the people I knew they might be stereotyped because of that. Like Peter, who was a young Chinese guy. I knew. He said he actually loved languages, and that's what he wanted to do. [00:40:30] But he kept being offered accounting jobs, which he hated, because they thought that he was good at it. And so when EEO laws came through and people were required to sort of think about things a bit more. Well, I did, but not really, because, you know, like they didn't actually have an understanding, because again, there wasn't the sharing about what people's own lives were like and who, who, who they were. It was like, Oh, we're now aware that we're supposed to be diverse. Therefore, we'll, um, appoint one Asian guy to a to an accounting job, you know, And that that was enough to satisfy it rather [00:41:00] than sort of saying, actually, how do we make sure that our processes are good? And, um, when I was working at one government agency, I was doing the the notes for, um appointing people. And the boss said, Oh, look, we don't want to employ that one because the guy, because he's in a wheelchair um, write it up so that he doesn't look as good and write her up, so she looks better. So it's like and that was a direct instruction. So I mean, we're we're still at a point where we've got, um organisations that are getting the rainbow tick. [00:41:30] To be able to say that they, you know, they have diversity policies or they're doing an OK job by their by their rainbow clients or their rainbow staff. Um what? What do you think of that? Well, it's a two sided thing. On the one hand, yeah, it's really good that it's happening because it does create opportunities for some people, and I've got friends in the organisations that are there, and it doesn't. It does also mean that my, for example, a friend of mine who, [00:42:00] Um, I've known for over 30 years and came out to me a couple of weeks ago as Trans and is now transitioning and, um won't be fired for that and actually can get some support at the workplace. And I've been able to connect that person with some other friends who are a bit further along their journey to to give support on on medical advice. But I'm also aware that some of those large Corporates they don't have a fundamental commitment to anything other than profit. [00:42:30] And they're doing this because it's part of the whole pink dollar exercise a bit like when, um, a NZ had their gay T MS. Um, they weren't giving any of their own money to the donated good. They were sort of saying, If you put it here, we'll give part of this extra fee money that we're charging you to those ones It So it wasn't them really having a solid commitment. It's just a pure marketing exercise. Yes, they're doing some good in some very limited areas, [00:43:00] and it's a good thing and you see support, and it's the same as my friends who are, um, extreme left and who oppose capitalism. They oppose property. They oppose marriage as an institution, but they still wanted marriage equality, rights for everybody because nobody should deny anybody what rights are there for one set. So it's It's complicated, but only from the thing of you support something, but you still criticise it. You know, it's it's that thing of, um and sometimes [00:43:30] people feel, Oh, if I'm supporting something that far, I can't be critical as well. And I think that's where social media is wonderful. You can have all of these identities or, um, but no, even even something that's there you can be polite about and say, Look, I think it's really great that large Corporates are now realising that they can actually improve their performance by having a diversity of their staff, because everybody [00:44:00] thinking the same having an echo chamber in your ideas tank doesn't actually create any innovation. It doesn't improve productivity. It doesn't do anything good for the company. So now that you're aware of this, how's about also doing something about, say, physical access into your building? So people who've got physical sort of impairments can actually get there. Have you thought about how to get the most loyal employees working for you? Which again, People who are disabled, you know, they will sort of give far more [00:44:30] than you actually pay them if you enable them to work for you. But you have to make some changes to how that work is done. You know? Is it, um, is there an opportunity for somebody who's deaf or hearing impaired to be working for you? What are the barriers to that person that for, For other sort of physical things, Um, a person who's transitioning, How are how are they, um, going to be received by their their coworkers? And then, of course, you've got government agencies. What's the level of awareness, um, of people's [00:45:00] diversity and differences? Um, and are the processes actually robust to sort of say, Hey, you're not discriminating against them? And some of that that, like things like, um, Human Rights Commission came out Reports on institutional racism, um, Maori or associates did one on AC C processes. If you are in seasonal work, you or have many part time jobs with employers, you are less likely to be able to claim and get AC C for a work injury. [00:45:30] And the people most in those situations are Maori and Pacific. And so it is a form of structural racism that impacts on those people's ability to earn money and support their families and partly for cultural reasons. Maori and Pacific people do have larger families, so you're actually talking about systems that are impacting on lots of Children. So I mean, we've gone off topic a little bit, but you know, like, this is the thing of when you start unpicking. Hey, you're saying [00:46:00] that you want the rainbow tick because you support diversity and you think it's a good thing. Well, what else might you be doing to actually show that you really understand that that's right? And communicating and connecting people with each other is something that's really important. And back in the eighties, we did that by standing alongside each other at meetings on protests, Um, sometimes even just identifying with somebody through less, um, that they'd written, seen them on television. [00:46:30] That was the connection. These days, I'm seeing far more of that connection through social media, sometimes with meetups and face to face meetings as well, but it's it's like in a way, it's a different world that we're able to discuss these issues far more openly in different ways. So people blogging people sort of sharing things. But it's also a little bit of a loss that people aren't going to the same bars to get together to find their people, because they can find them in a space that doesn't have that connection. So you [00:47:00] are getting in a way silo because of that where people may not be mixing as much across those areas. So there's both the goods and the bad as people getting strength from finding their community and being with it, but not necessarily sharing it with other people to break down their, um, prejudices against them. And it's the same a bit between Auckland versus, um Wellington, that in Wellington a lot of the ethnic communities are [00:47:30] too small to have their own separate space, so they actually have to mix. In Auckland. You can have entire suburbs where English is not the first language and people don't have to mix with others of a different background to themselves, which you know is good for their support. But bad for not having connections. So I really sort of, in a way, there were some really good things about building community in the eighties that, um, and I and I still wish, you know, we had women's dances like we we we did, and and those things of getting [00:48:00] together just to, you know, raise hell and, you know, have a have a laugh. You know, even if sometimes you weren't allowed in. Yeah, even if sometimes I wasn't allowed in, But it gave me something to be angry about. And you know, I, I like having something to rant about, too.
This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
Tags