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Hello. My name is Tony Reed. Welcome to GAYA radio program for L-G-B-T-I people and their friends on Coast Texas Radio 1 0 4 0.7 FM [00:00:30] Radio Southland, 96.4 fm. Access Radio, Taranaki at 1 0 4 0.4 FM and Plains fm. Christchurch 96.9 fm. My guest today is Gareth Watkins, a figure well known in the, uh, L-G-B-T-I community in Wellington for approaching you with a microphone at regular intervals. And this is because he runs a website called Pride nz, which has, um. Mostly audio, I think, [00:01:00] or any video. There's a number of, uh, small videos, but it's mainly audio use, mainly audio interviews so that our rainbow histories are captured, um, are captured locally. And he's agreed to come and talk to us and give a few examples. Of, uh, at least one quite famous, um, action and some others. So, welcome, Gareth. Nice to thank you for coming up on this, uh, typical summer day in, in New Zealand. Well, thank you so much for the [00:01:30] invite. I, I really appreciate that. Thank you. Right, fine. Um, now as I as I, as I said to you over coffee, I normally. Ask our guests to give, give a little personal introduction before we get onto the nitty gritty, as it were. So, um, have you, are you Wellington born and bred, or? Yes, uh, born and bred in Wellington. Uh, I, I was born in 1972 and, uh, grew up in Miramar and then went to, uh, a number of high school, uh, a high school in Wellington.[00:02:00] Uh, didn't. I, I, I, I, I kind of had the realization, I was gay probably from my early teenage years, but I suppressed it, um, quite a bit. And it wasn't really until my late teens when I actually moved out and, and moved to Masterton, that, that I kind of. Um, came out. Um, it's coming out in Masterton normally, normally you hear the opposite. I know people in the wire a wrap, keep the low profile, come to Wellington to let off steam. Um, but, [00:02:30] but it was, it was a time, so, you know, I kind of came out in the yes, um, probably mid 1990s. And, uh, the, you know, my parents, uh, didn't really know anything much about kind of, um, gay, uh, rainbow people and. Priscilla, the movie had just come out. And, um, that was, uh, the two things that my parents, uh, were really concerned about. One was that I was gonna turn into this, um, flaming drag queen. Um, and, and [00:03:00] two that, um, I would die of aids. Um, because AIDS was, uh, a big thing in the, um, you know, early to late nine, early to mid nineties. Um, and yeah, so, so it was interesting that, that they were the two things that they were really concerned about. Um, and so it, it's interesting, I can't recall as a young person, um. Having any direct negative, uh, uh, messages [00:03:30] about being gay. Um, but obviously it seeped in there and, and, you know, I, I wasn't particularly, um, happy with, with, with being gay. Um, so it took a, a while. It wasn't really until I was kind of early twenties that I, you know, kind of felt comfortable. Yes. I mean, that's. Things have changed quite rapidly. I dunno whether you've seen the famous gay TV series looking, starring Jonathan Gr [00:04:00] the the, the American one. And in the last, uh, sort of movie episode of that, um, our hero who's about, who's only. 30. And this, um, takes home this young 22-year-old for the night. And, uh, they're, um, um, and they're chatting, you know, and the 22-year-old has had boyfriends since he was 16. And, you know, the, the older one who's only 30 is sort of, oh, you know how amazing. And there has been this really fairly rapid. Uh, [00:04:30] a change over the last, um, over the last 10 to 20 years. Oh, absolutely. And, and you know, I think that's really, um, displayed in one of these audio clips that are brought today from PRIDE nz, which was Yes. The high school students from last year talking about coming out and whether, whether it's actually coming out or whether it's actually just is, you know, nowadays for some people Yes. Um, but the idea that actually, uh. People, uh, rainbow people don't necessarily need to have a bad experience. [00:05:00] Um, which is quite different from, I think, the time that I was growing up where actually, uh, it was seen as, it was seen as a bit of a negative Yes. Whereas in a sense it was easier for me because it just wasn't considered. Oh, really? Well, well, well, well, well, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Well, I mean, it probably would've been if I'd had. Parents who were, so why haven't you've got a girlfriend? You know, and why this? But I didn't, you know, they were parents who sort of just let me develop very much as me. Uh, and in fact, my mother was the first person I told I was gay. Um, [00:05:30] knowing that I wouldn't get a negative, uh, I wouldn't get a negative response, but it was, uh, there was much less an. Even though I was very much alone at sort of grammar school and things like that, I don't remember any homophobic teasing or anything just 'cause it was outside the radar almost in the, in those days. I mean, we are, in my case we're talking about the early 1960s, so, which is long while ago. It's, it's interesting because, I mean, when I was growing up, I don't really recall a lot of [00:06:00] overt homophobia. Yes. But. Uh, on the fiction, it was, it must, it must have seeped in there and maybe it was just because there was so much more kind of heteronormative. Yes. So you never saw gay people? Yes. Or if, if, if you did see gay people, I'd say in the media it was, um, maybe they were the, the comical character. Um, yes. You didn't necessarily just see No, no, you don't. People as acting as just, you know, Joe, average [00:06:30] person that was gay. It, it was, it was seen as a, and yes. And having, um, a. TV shows or, or, um, or films or, um, or anything where the characters just happen to be gay and it's not about them being gay, it's not about coming out, it's not about having aids, it's not about, or other things just about them living ordinary, uh, often fairly ordinary lives. That's only fairly recent development too. And I, I guess one of the, the great things [00:07:00] I find, uh, working with pride nz.com is that actually to go back and talk to, um, kind of my elders Yes. Uh, in the rainbow community and get their experiences from the seventies and eighties. So when I was, um, kind of like really. Scared of, you know, um, gays and rainbows and blah, blah, blah, blah. Yes. Um, they were out there being themselves. Yes. And, um, just not taking any crap from anyone. So, you know, I, I, I think of, well, you know, I'm, I'm [00:07:30] thinking, uh, of people like the top twins who were, you know, have, have been kind of out and proud for 30 years. For 30 years, and were, you know, um. Anti Spring walk tour, anti apart, anti, um, uh, well pro homosexual law reform. Um, but a whole range of things, you know? Yes. They, they were standing up to be counted. Yes. Um, but then I also think of, you know, your people like your Alison Ls, your Linda Evans as Yes. Yeah. Um. You, Pru Hymans who were [00:08:00] really staunch in the seventies and eighties. Yes, indeed. And, uh, and, and to be able to go and talk to them now and to hear what they were doing and what they were doing for the community, not just for themselves, um, is, is amazing. So, uh, yeah, I, while I was kind of cowering away in a corner, um, you know, these people were out there. Yeah. And, and going, you know, actually we, we want equal rights, which is Yeah. Stunning. Anyway, you obviously came back from [00:08:30] Masterson and came back to, came back to, came back to Wellington and you've um, um, when did you, how long has Pride NZ been going for? Yeah, well, uh, so I came back to Wellington in the mid nineties and, uh, went back to Radio New Zealand, which was, uh, so, so my background is in public radio. Yes. So I was doing a lot of, uh, documentary work and sound engineering and producing, uh, when I was at Radio New Zealand, I really wanted to. Make, uh, um, [00:09:00] rainbow documentaries. Yeah. But, uh, an executive there said, oh, no, no, no, we can't do that because, you know, if you let one minority in, you'll let them all in. It's like, so this is like the mid nineties and it's like, ah, it just seems so archaic when I, when I think about it. Yes. Can't talk about minorities. And, um, so I, you know, I struggled on there for a couple of years. I, I made, um, uh. Rainbow documentaries privately. Yes. I, I, I, I, so, so I was recording in the 1990s. Um, moved [00:09:30] to Wellington Access Radio in the mid two thousands as the program director. And, um, access radio is an amazing vehicle for an, an amazing platform. Form for Rainbow communities. I mean, right from the get go. Uh, 1981, the first, uh, community broadcast happened in New Zealand and right from the start there were Rainbow Voices involved in that and they, that that the community platform has basically, um, been there for Rainbow Voices ever since. Yes. So I think, I [00:10:00] mean, you know, uh, Willington Access Radio and, and Company Coast Access is, is great for having, having this show, um. Yeah, that they have been amazing. Uh, so as part of Access Radio, I went and did a Churchill Fellowship looking at community media in California. Um, which was, which was, uh, really fantastic, um, and got really inspired. Came back to New Zealand and said, Hey, wouldn't it be great to do a, um, a rainbow show nationwide on Access radio? And I pitched it [00:10:30] to NZ on air and, um, they came back and said, oh, uh, you need a bigger audience. You need to have a commercial station involved in this. Uh, but what I was pitching was a half hour talk. Show much like, you know, what we're doing here. Yes. Rather like we're doing, we've done here. And Andrew, as, as you hear sort of other access radio, um, uh, channels have picked this, have, have picked up Kaity Gay. Yeah. Which is because they don't just talk about Kaity, which is fantastic, [00:11:00] but, but you know, it was a real, it was really deflating to find that actually, um, there wasn't. Uh, yes. Uh, financial support. Yes. Um, and there was no way that it was gonna be a commercial. Yes. Uh, no. Commercially viable. No. Um, so one of the, the great things about being turned down for funding is that it actually can have the reverse effect and actually really charge you up and go, well, actually we're just gonna do it anyway. Yeah. Um, and I think we are talking now about 2008, 2009, [00:11:30] where the technology was available. Um, technology was cheaper. You could podcast on the internet. Um, there, the, the, there was a democratization of, of, uh, uh, with that technology so that actually, um, it was very affordable to actually just broadcast yourself basically. So Pride, NZ came out of, um, the Churchill Fellowship being turned down from New Zealand on the air and the desire to have, um, rainbow voices. [00:12:00] Out there. Yes. Um, so the, the, the kind of three main principles of of Pride NZ are to, to to, to capture a sense of rainbow lives in New Zealand through audio interviews and event recordings. So, um, conferences or. Other live events, um, to make those recordings, uh, easily accessible to the public. Uh, so directly on the internet and in a, kind of, in an immediate fashion. So we don't hold onto them for 10 years before [00:12:30] they go online. It's like, you know, it's now. Um, and then to preserve, so to make those recordings available to archives for long term. S uh, use in storage. Um, we, I, I don't, I don't really see pride nz as an archive as such, because I think with an archive you have to be very, um. It has to be very sustainable. You know, you, you need to be set up for the long term, for basically forever. Um, and Pride NZ doesn't have that kind of, [00:13:00] um, that kind of resource, right? So Pride NZ is, is kind of, it sits before the archive. So it's all about more, it's more about. Capturing, putting things online and then pushing them into the archive. So this seems quite a, a good time to listen to a few brief excerpt from Pride and Zaid. Uh, so perhaps you'd introduce them, uh, Gareth. Well, the, yeah, the, the first one was an amazing story that I came across, uh, in 2013. I was [00:13:30] interviewing, um, Miriam. In Auckland and she had done a book about her father Norman's same sex relationship with Roy. And they were both in World War I 1916 in, um, in the Battle of the Psalm. And, uh, the book was called A Man's Man, and it was published in 1997. Um, and in this excerpt, um, Miriam talks about, uh, the, the relationship between Roy and Norman. Yes. Well, Norman is my [00:14:00] father, Norman Paro Gibson was his name. Um, and he wa went off to the first World War. So Roy and Norman were there in the battle of the som. My father had his 21st birthday and three days later was shot through the neck and was carted off, not expected to live. He had quite a lot of shrapnel in him, um, and Roy was devastated. Um, there's a beautiful poem that's in the book, um, Hercules. It starts off about [00:14:30] Hercules form what, um, form like Hercules of old mighty limbs and shapely mold, manly strength and beauty rolled old sunshine. Obviously he wrote it after my father's injury because it says Dre the roadway. I had trod all the shell scarred, stricken sod without him to help me plot old sunshine. So when Knight doth hold her sway outstretched arms, I fling and pray. [00:15:00] Send him back. Dear God, someday old sunshine. It is very moving. It's always moved me. I always cry when I read this poem. So sad. They couldn't be together all the time. In another era they might have been. So that was written in 1916, that poem. And I, even though we are not hearing the direct voices of Roy and Norman, we are hearing the experience through [00:15:30] Miriam and I kind of think, wouldn't it be amazing if we were able to transport ourselves back to 1916 and hear, um, what it was like for rainbow people back then, um, in their, in their, in the language that they used and the kind of relationships that they had. Yeah. Um, so I kind of think like for Pride nz now, the audience not only is current, so what, you know, um, the contemporary audience, but an audience say in a hundred years time. So they'll be able to listen back and, and find out what it was like to [00:16:00] live. In 2016, and I, I, I just look at my own life and think, you know, the, the kind of growing up I had in the eighties and nineties and how different that is to how somebody growing up in 2016 is now, and, and how quickly things change. Yes. But then you think back what it must have been like in a century, a century ago. Although, as I say, some, in some ways it was easier because. People weren't being suspicious. So men could be, especially in, [00:16:30] in World War I, as I, as I understand it, men could be a lot closer to each other without sort of people immediately wanting to arrest them and, uh, uh, um, for gross in decency or anything. Uh, now your second example is headed, documenting historic moments, and you've chosen one that we all remember 'cause some of us were there. Uh, when, when Georgina Bayer, the world's first openly transsexual member of Parliament, of course, confronted [00:17:00] Bishop O'Brien, Tamaki. And the Destiny Church on the Steps of Parliament during the heated enough is enough. Rally part of the Civil Union debate in 2004. And as you, as you say, I mean, some of us were there and some of us weren't. And I, I, I, you know, uh, real, a real regret for me is that I wasn't there, uh, recording the March of Destiny Church. Enough is enough because I think it was such a, um, pivotal moment in the Civil Union debate where suddenly. Um, [00:17:30] you know, actually I think, uh, I think most New Zealanders are quite fair. They're fair minded and actually when they saw this on television that this kind of what's been described as a Nuremberg rally yeses type thing, um, it actually tipped the balance, I think, and, and people thought actually we, we don't want this kind of stuff in New Zealand. Yeah. And, um, I think it actually did more harm to Destiny Church. Yeah. And the kind of anti civil union, uh, groups than, than, uh, yes. [00:18:00] Then it, it actually, yeah, I, I think it actually worked against them. Um, but, you know, I, I regret that I wasn't there and I, I, I, I just, when I heard there was the amount of people that were marching through Wellington, actually, I just didn't wanna be there. But I wish I had been there actually. Just to, to document it. Yeah. But this recording was actually sent to me, um Oh, yes indeed. And it's of Georgina on the steps. And when I listened to it, I think, wow. You know, I just have so much admiration for Georgina for actually just being able [00:18:30] to front up and, and look people in the eye. And, you know, these people are like, face to face and, and, and her to say, you know, why, why do you deny us these rights? I'm happy to stare you in the eye. Why do you hate people like us? Be real Christians. I've known much [00:19:00] more Christian charity. From other people than what I've seen from you today. Well, I'm gonna come and look at each and every one of you. I don't mind the all your hatred is totally intolerable. Why do you deny more abiding New Zealand citizens who happen to have a difference, the same rights as yourself? Jesus loves you. How dare you use the float of Christianity. [00:19:30] When you are imparting to your children, prejudice, discrimination toward people like me, gays and lesbians, and other people who live differently, but abide the law and pay their taxes. Why do you do this to us? You are not going to win. You haven't. I have trust in New Zealanders that they will be fair minded as they always have been because a democracy who I live in made it possible for somebody like [00:20:00] me to be here in this place serving the privilege and service to people in New Zealand, and you would deny me rights. Why do you do that? Yes. Um, interestingly, as I was, I was saying to you earlier, one thing that recording doesn't pick up is that a lot of the destiny people were calling Georgina George and saying, hello George, and things like that. Refusing to recognize that Georgina by. She identifies as a woman and Georgina Byers [00:20:30] always identified as a woman so successfully that the rest of us were just rather puzzled. Never occurred to us that, uh, we all knew she was born George. But, uh, but, uh, it, it just never occurred to us to. Uh, to the rest of us in Parliament. Well, that's just unbelievable to, it is just typical of a, of a part of the, I mean, it's just unbelievably disrespectful. Yes, indeed. I mean, I, indeed it's, yeah. I, Georgina is the most amazing person and in 2013, I think it was [00:21:00] 2013, I interviewed her and we, we ran for about, it was about six or seven hours. Goodness. Uh, she, she's got the most amazing life. F and you know, I came away from that thinking, whoa, that, that it's just so inspirational. And, um, yeah, I, I mean, hearing that, I just find that, uh, that those comments about her is just so disrespectful. Yeah. Yes, indeed. I, I, I remember a young, a young American friend, well, not quite so young now, but certainly at that point he'd only just arrived in, in New [00:21:30] Zealand, and we were, and he came to the fair when it was still in Newtown and said to me, do you know Georgina Byron? And I said, yes. Everyone know her. He said, please, can I meet her, please? Can I meet her? You know, she, she was famous across the world, so I introduced Well, thank you. Thank you. You know. I, I said, was really, I said to Georgina at the, at the time of the interview, um, you know, just the mere fact that she was in Parliament was such a wonderful, um, a wonderful thing knowing that she was there. Yeah. [00:22:00] Um, just it's like other, um, um, rainbow politicians knowing that, knowing that you can actually be a successful Yes. Rainbow person and get yes. To the top and be, um, judged on your merits rather than just, um, you know, your sexuality or, or your gender identification. Um, is, is wonderful. Yes. So shall we go to the last, um, uh, uh, excerpt you're going to do? This is the one we've already mentioned about the, uh, the group of high school [00:22:30] students, uh, yeah. Last year. And this, this was, um, a really interesting recording. Um. And they just have such a different take on growing up, and that's, that's really fantastic. This is, um, one of the things that Pride NZ likes to do is to do peer to peer interviewing. So it's either, um, elders, interviewing elders or youth interviewing youth. Right. It just means that you get different questions are asked, you get different access. Yes. And, um, it, it's a wonderful way [00:23:00] of just getting a completely different viewpoint. So, uh, I basically went to the teacher of, of this high school and said, you know, um, would you like to do a recording? They said, yes. And basically it was up to the students as to. What they included in the, in, in the recording, what questions they asked. Yes. And, and how they, how they answered it. And it was just, it, it, it is just fresh. It's different. Um, I, I find it really interesting to know, you know, what concerns them, you know, what, what are they into, uh, what, what language do they [00:23:30] use? Um, because actually it, it just shows you how different an experience of, of coming out now as opposed to coming out, you know, 20 years ago is, yeah. The first time I came out it was to, I think it was to my boyfriend who's still my boyfriend to this day. 'cause he came out as bi a couple years before we started dating. So the first time I came out was to him. 'cause I, like, I knew that he'd already been through all this and that he'd knew, know what was best to do. And he was like, oh, that's all good. [00:24:00] And it things sort of went smoothly from there. I've never really had an adverse reaction. And what about you, Alex? Um, what has your tail been? The first person who probably noticed rather than I told was Xavier. 'cause I started posting about it online, but the first person that I really told, I first said that I was questioning my gender, and that was to my two best friends. And they were like, oh, cool. What [00:24:30] pronouns do you want me to use? And. That was probably the best way they could have reacted because it allowed me to decide more than anything else. I still wasn't quite sure of how I was identifying, so just saying, oh, for now, just use they, them pronouns made me feel like I had some control over my identity rather than I was being forced to conform to these pronouns that had been assigned to me at birth. And as I started to realize who I [00:25:00] was. This. People who I came out to first stopped, they just didn't care and they just swapped pronouns real easily. But when I officially came out to one of my teachers, that got out of hand, out of hand and I was forced out to my parents by my principal. And I guess at the moment it's okay. Um, I'm. Out at home, but I'm not [00:25:30] out at the same time. Let my parents know I'm going through gender issues, but they don't really know that I've stopped going through the issues and I know who I am. Um, all of my friends take it for what it is and except my identity and I'm out at work. So the only people who really call me by my birth name or whatever. Um, my immediate family, which is understandable to a certain extent because they're still trying to, [00:26:00] what they think has helped me through it all. But I don't know. Coming out was all right. I mean, it wasn't, but it is now. Well, we could go on for hours like this, and I'd love to, but we've come to more or less to the end of our 30 minute slot, uh, Gareth. So thank you very much for, uh, for coming up to the windswept, rainy kaity from even more wind swept and rainy Wellington, uh, to, um, uh, to, uh, to be interviewed. And it's, it's been, it's been very interesting hearing, especially hearing [00:26:30] those three very different, uh, um, record, uh, recordings, which show the. Which show the breadth of your, I'll call it an archive. 'cause in a sense it is. Uh, yeah. Thank you. I mean, it, it's, it's, it was established in 2009 and so we are what, eight years in? Yes. And it has just been the most amazing, um, uh, uh, vehicle, uh, an opportunity. F to, to meet a whole range of different people, [00:27:00] to, um, have a platform that enables other people to contribute as well. I mean, the, there are so many different, uh, people involved in, in Pride nz be they, the, you know, the interviewees or the different interviewers, um, uh, with peer to peer interviewing. It has, it has given so many, uh, wonderful opportunities. Um. That, yeah. Both now and, and in the future. So I think, you know, for a contemporary audience listening [00:27:30] to the material, it's, it's, it's fantastic because it gives, uh, insights. Um, but actually for the audience in the future, hopefully, um, it will be a real treasure trove, uh, of, of, of breadcrumbs to, to, to follow. Indeed. Well again, thank you very much, Gareth, for the, uh, for this interview. You can hear this program again next Tuesday at 9:00 PM or Thursday at 5:00 PM It is also available on our website at www.coastaccessradio.org dot n Zaid, [00:28:00] or just Google Coast Access Radio. This is Tony Reed for GIY on Coast Access Radio 1 0 4 0.7 FM Radio Southland, 96.4 fm. Access Radio, Taranaki 1 0 4 0.4 FM and Plains fm. Christchurch 96.9 fm.[00:28:30] This program was made with assistance from New Zealand on air for radio broadcast and access internet radio. Thanks New Zealand on air.
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