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My name is Jules. Derek. I am a gay woman. I have been Wellington born and bred. I grew up in Newlands, which was a a fairly small dormitory suburb. Um, 1972 was the year I was born. I think I was very lucky in that. My housewife mother, um, was raising three daughters. I was a middle child and I have a recollection of her at some stage in my childhood somehow, [00:00:30] and she swears as an adult, she has no concept that I was gay, but actually letting us know that to be unmarried, not have Children or to be lesbian was not a bad thing. Um, so that was how I grew up. So while it was in AAA conservative suburb, um, I always had that feminist awareness, which just meant I had the groundwork [00:01:00] to be me, no matter what that was. Where do you think that came from When your mother was saying that she had her has her own issues of being, um, an only child raised very quietly, Um, and she was very. Although she is identifies as straight, um, she's not such a fan of, uh, the oppression of men She's a good old fashioned, um, feminist. Um so I think [00:01:30] she was trying to undo the damage that had been done to her by just giving us options. And in fact, I was married to a man and I had two Children. And the hardest thing that I've ever had to do was tell her that I had got married because that would be the greatest disappointment I felt at that time. So she went the opposite way. You either carry on what your parents do, or you you do the opposite. Meanwhile, [00:02:00] living a very conservative, you know, middle class New Zealand existence. So can you recall as a child how you felt when you heard something like that? Um, no, I can't. I only remember as an A as an adult in context. Um, I remember that she did consciousness raising in the seventies and and rebirthing and women's groups and and all that sort of stuff. So I think it was just something that was always part of our lives. There [00:02:30] was the Sheila Kissinger books and the feminist books around. So it was just part of the landscape, Um, rather than than one moment. So I don't think I ever, um, knew what was going on until a little bit later. Probably intermediate. Um, we were told, because we were in Newlands, we were told we had to go to Newlands. That brought in zoning. Um, and my mother took on the school board to send us to Wellington girls. Not because [00:03:00] she wanted us to go to Wellington girls, but because she wanted to get us out of Newlands. So you can see a little phobia there that she had of us turning into, uh, middle aged housewives stuck in the suburbs like she was the enders. Um, so I guess I I think her mission was to prevent the evil that she perceived had happened to her, um, happening to her daughters, which is quite interesting. She's [00:03:30] still there. She's still married and living in the suburbs, but we're not, um, so from there I went to Wellington girls and, um, got on with my life. Um, I have never been so far as fitness goes, I have always been a complete couch potato. Um, so went off and went to college. Um, wanted to be a journalist or a writer. Interestingly enough, which comes back [00:04:00] later in the story, um, and then just left school and did a whole lot of odd jobs. I had a couple of casual relationships with women, um, and then ended up with, uh, quite early 18. I met my husband. Um, so we got married when I was 23 and had two Children who are now 12 and 10. He knew I was, um, bisexual or gay or not [00:04:30] straight. Um, while I was with him, I identified very much as his partner. Um, I didn't like the idea of straight. Um, but a respect to him was that essentially I was his monogamous partner. So, um, that was my identity. Can I just take you back just a wee bit? Because when you're going through college, that would have been over the period of the homosexual [00:05:00] law reform in the mid eighties in New Zealand. Can you recall anything from that period in terms of kind of the homosexual law reform? Um, I think it was It was something that I was aware of because I while my mother, um, was doing housewife feminism. Um, lesbian feminism was very much part of that. So there would have been a crossover. Um, I do remember being surprised, Um, that it was illegal. It just had never [00:05:30] occurred to me that it was It's There were gay people. Um, and I very odd. They didn't seem to be. We didn't seem to be wrong. Um, my parents never told me it was illegal. It was just It never occurred to me, so I was quite surprised. Um, it was very much I, I think from the the that pre adolescent girl it it seemed like a very man thing. [00:06:00] Older men, I think, um, older now probably though, you know, all of 25 or 30 but from, you know, age 10. Um, so that was my experience of that. When did you first start realising that that you liked women? Uh, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Um, I saw Greece when I was four, and I fell in love with Rizzo and I only it was actually only about three years ago that I saw [00:06:30] her in a in a programme and went, Oh, my goodness. I've always really respected Stockard Channing, great actress. And just for some reason, I was just watching her and when I was five. I don't think we were because we weren't assigned once again being one of three daughters. Um, there were no boys in our family except for my very quiet father. Um, so gender roles weren't huge, so I don't think I ever had to consciously [00:07:00] make that it was never presented as a as a choice. Um, not because the choice was you had to be straight, but I think it was just fairly fluid. Um, and at 17, um, that was 15 and 17 2. Um, I was kicking over the traces a little bit. Um, I had a big old you know, blue Mohawk and, um, studs everywhere. So that [00:07:30] group of people were fairly fluid. Anyway, um, so it wasn't like I was really even making a choice at that stage. Um, it was just part of, um, people you went out with and slept with. So around that time, how were those fluid people seen in the kind of wider society? Um, probably it's reasonably rough. Although we were all well [00:08:00] behaved middle age, we were on the edge, um, of little goths and punk rockers. Try hards and our little first flat sort of thing. So it was all very harmless. Um, I hate to think what? It appeared from the outside. In fact, my mother used to get terrible grief in Newlands. Um, because she let her daughter walk around like that. Um, she was of the opinion that really your core values weren't determined by the colour of your hair. Um, so I [00:08:30] as a teenager, I don't think I really saw the world from any position other than my own. Um, and we just did what we did. Um, and that was fine. And then I met my husband, and it was really easy, even at the time. Um, knowing that and I actually think there are probably a lot of adults in my life who went fuel. Oh, she's got herself a man. [00:09:00] She's straight. So maybe they they noticed something that I hadn't told them. Um, and just went Oh, that's nice. She's got herself a nice man. We can all breathe a sigh of relief. Um, and then we had we had babies and I left him when I was 30. Um, because I decided I It wasn't a terribly unhappy marriage at all. um, but I just decided [00:09:30] I didn't want to face never being with another woman. And it was a monogamous relationship, and I didn't want to change that. So for me, it was all or nothing, so I chose nothing. I also had a three year old and a four year old. Um, and I. I think the ultimate decision was based on that I would be raising these Children into adulthood. And [00:10:00] if I couldn't make a choice, that wasn't easy. Then how was I going to teach them to make the same choice if they needed to? Um, they may be gay. They may make choices that society doesn't like, whatever they are. Um, and as the parent, I would be going You should do what makes you happy. Um, if I'd stayed in a marriage, then I would be contradicting that, [00:10:30] and I couldn't. I couldn't do that to my Children. I had to be honest, so I left. Um, lucky enough, I had the most awesome, um, husband who, while was devastated that I was leaving him, actually had No, uh, he said I was leaving him. It didn't really matter who I left him for. whether I left him for men or women. Um, he knew, um, my history, Um, so [00:11:00] that's never been an issue. Never been an issue with the kids as well. Um, so that I think speaking to other women who have left partners, um, and become gay. I think that's a battle I never had to fight, which is brilliant. When? When you look back, Do you wish you had explored the kind of lesbian side more before you got into marriage? Um, no. Too much Gained. Far too much gained. Um, I've [00:11:30] got kids. Um, and my ex-husband is the the dearest person in my life. Um, I've had partners since him, Um, who I would have thought I would end up with the same relationship with them as I did, but it it's different. Um, would my life have been easier? Possibly, Um, maybe I wouldn't have got depressed. Or maybe I wouldn't have. Um [00:12:00] maybe I could have been stronger if you had identified. Um, but I think water under the bridge you just got to go with with what happened. Um, and when it became strong enough that I needed to go back and re examine it. Um, I did. So that was the important thing. I think if I'd stayed there, um, that would have been different. That would have been a regret. [00:12:30] But when I needed to investigate it, I did the honest thing. And, um, yeah, so No, no, Absolutely not. At secondary school. Can you recall any Were Were there any out lesbians or gay people? Um, no, there was the, um I had an English teacher, actually who, [00:13:00] um claimed that she'd gone through a period of her life being a misogynist, which she claimed to be the female equivalent of a misogynist. Um, so, uh, that would be interesting to see where she came. And I know I do recall in my sixth form years, she couldn't come to a production because she was going on a date. Um, and I remember the disgust we all had that she chose her. So she was obviously straight at that point. But maybe not. Um [00:13:30] uh, so no, um, statistics say, in a school of 1000 girls that there was probably one or two. Um, I know now that in my year, which would have been 100 and 20 girls I was friends with two other gay women. Now, um, [00:14:00] wouldn't have picked it at the time. Um, which makes me think maybe there was some others. Definitely some others. Um, no, not even not even mentioned. I don't think it really even existed. Is a is a subject? No, it's interesting. As a term you use gay women. How would you identify yourself? Um, lesbian [00:14:30] or gay woman? Um, I think lesbian is a very female term. Whereas gay is an umbrella term for a male and female community, so it's more inclusive. Um, so lesbian is is the female experience. Gay is the the universal experience, so I'm quite comfortable with with either. What about words like queer? Um, yeah, Absolutely. I think that's more modern for me. That's like a cool, new modern word. Um, So, [00:15:00] yes, I use that and feel particularly hip, you know, like a 20 year old. Um, like the queer youth. Um, so quite comfortable with that, um, and all the other terms, um, thank you to the L word. I think giving us all these special terms and probably queer folk before that, um, I'm not a I don't think any of the tunes. Words don't really worry me. Um, so far as what we call ourselves. Um, [00:15:30] so you're a gay woman or lesbian? Interesting. You used to talk about the L word as a as a TV series. I'm wondering, you know, growing up. Can you recall anything gay, lesbian on TV or in the media? Um, no, not at all, I think. Probably like all New Zealand women. They were the top twins. Um, and you've got, uh the interesting thing is about TV and things like [00:16:00] that that while there were no gay role models in my childhood, there were an abundance of, um, strong, unattached women. Um, so there were There was Laverne and Shirley. Um, I'm thinking of another one. Mary. So there were actually these asexuals strong female friendships. [00:16:30] Um, that when you think about them, the men were, um I don't think they They went on dates with men, but they weren't part of the story, and they had the two male friends as well. Um, so not specifically gay at all, but strong independent women, which I think is, is in the absence of actual role models. Um was quite helpful. [00:17:00] What was it like going to an all girls school? Um, I loved it. It was great. Um, I had been raised in a household with three women and, um, had been nuance was not an exciting experience for me as a, um, growing up. Um, I had a a distrust for and I think I've always been a chameleon. Um, the fact that you you you got to play centre at three years old, and then [00:17:30] you go to school with the same people at five. And then you got to intermediate with the same people and some more people. And then you go to college, um, with the same people. And that can put you very much in a box. Um, so to me, the girls school was an an escape. I don't think I had an option of going to a coed school unless I went to Newlands College. Um, I found a really, really positive, empowering experience just because all the resources and everything could [00:18:00] be women centred. Um, which worked for me. My mother, interestingly enough, went to Wellington girls. Um, however, many years earlier, uh, left the minute she could in school. She'd never seen her daughters there ever. What she did in the end. Um, but no II. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Do you know why she didn't want to send you? Um, because she had a hideous experience and thought it was outdated, [00:18:30] and she just didn't enjoy school. Um, so didn't want us to be repeating the experience that she had, Um, which I think I have to give her huge credit for, um, because despite spending most of our childhood saying she'd never send us to that school, we then were allowed to go. Actually, no, we've decided, and each of us decided to go there, and she let us. I don't know if I'd be sorry, [00:19:00] Um, accommodating to my Children these days if they don't get an option. Um, so yeah, I. I mean, I've always enjoyed I've always enjoyed the company of women. Um, so for me, it just, uh, took away the, um not and I don't actually think it's boys I had an issue with. I think it was the hierarchy, um, in Newlands College at the time, Um was very sporting, [00:19:30] Um, and very, um, and I. I think I had a distrust of that, um that they valued, um, sportiness And, um, keeping, um, girls under control. So I just wanted to escape from that. So anything else was better than that. Whether it's true or not at the time. Or that was my perception, that would be interesting to go back. So, as a teenager, did you ever have, like, [00:20:00] a kind of a coming out experience or a realisation or coming out to parents? I didn't come out to my parents at all. Um, it wasn't it just It's not that I was in. I think I was, um my parents weren't part of my life. Um, and it actually wasn't a big deal. It wasn't like this great moment that I'd slept with a woman and it wasn't a It wasn't an amazing discovery. It was just part of the it. It wasn't [00:20:30] an issue. It just I. I didn't need to come. I think probably I would have come out. But then the husband sort of negated the or the the partner at 18. Um, really negated the need to do that. Um, so I didn't. And it wasn't until I left my husband, um when I decided I should really come out. That seemed like the appropriate thing to do. Um, so I rang my family and said that I was [00:21:00] leaving my husband and I wouldn't be with another man. Then my next partner would be a woman, and they were like, Oh, that's nice to hear my mother. Well, you can't do anything to horrify my mother. Um, so even that was very low key. Um, so they just there wasn't I didn't have to do the great coming out. Um, although, um, it's not You don't come out once, do you? You come out every time someone presumes [00:21:30] you've got a a male or is a woman with Children. Um, there is an assumption that therefore, you must be straight because you've got Children and because people just don't think beyond that. Um, so coming out is something you have to do quite a lot. But no, no. One great moment. Although I did ring them just so I could actually tell my parents it was a great moment. Even if they didn't respond with the, you know, [00:22:00] wringing of hands and crying that one would have, you know, imagined it was all very low. key. So did you find it confusing when you fell in love with your husband? Um, no. I. I don't know whether I'd actually made a decision. Um, on whether I was I don't think I'd gone as far as going. I was gay or straight. Um, the presumption is you're straight I. I think in [00:22:30] the world, the presumption is you're straight until you're otherwise. Um and I don't think I went as far as that. Um, I just fell in love with him. Um, he's AAA gentle. He was, in fact, in some ways, a lot more. A lot less manly than my first, um, partner after him. Ironic. Um, so, no, it didn't surprise me at all. Um, I think it was a little bit comfortable, I think. Probably at at 19. Um, at 20 [00:23:00] I. I could see the world. The world is definitely a little bit easier as a straight woman, or it's been seen as a straight woman. Um, in my journey through, um, having a male husband and then, you know, safely a year after you get married having, um, two very safe Children, um, the world really likes it. It's a really really comfortable place to be, um, safely married with [00:23:30] with lovely babies. The world loves it. Um, you don't have to explain yourself. Um, you don't have to people just as soon as you mentioned you've got a husband and there's a cute baby there you're taken care of. I guess they can put you in a box, and then they trust you and and you're safe and not going to be up to anything deviant or illegal. Who knows what they think, But it is. It's it's very comfortable. Um, and I think I probably enjoyed that to an extent. Um, [00:24:00] especially, um, when you're not as confident in yourself, it just means, you know, that no one's going to be asking the hard questions. That must be a really fascinating place to be where you can actually see both sides of the coin very much. So. Yeah, it it's quite interesting. It's quite, um, it's It's disappointing in a way, Um, but it's also it's interesting how it's such a fight [00:24:30] to be visible as a gay person. Um, that you, it it can be quite lonely. I think, um, and I've found I've had periods of my life. Um, I've actually always been partnered, but having a partner who travels away, um, and I imagine it's the same for, um, if you're single for a long time that your straightness is never questioned and it's, um, affirmed in everything [00:25:00] you see, Um, whereas you can quite happily just disappear as a gay person, um, it's really easy to disappear. Um, depending on where you work, you've got to fight to, to have people around you and experiences. It's not like you can turn the TV on and see gay characters or walk down the street and have a chat to the woman in the dairy. Um, about the gay experience. So, um, I can see it would be it could be quite lonely. [00:25:30] Um, whereas when you are straight, whether your your husband or partner is there, you're always visible. Your your choices are always being confirmed by everything around you. Um, so it's a more conscious way of living. Um, I like it. I like it because it's more conscious because you have to. You yourself have to be affirming your choices, which I think is something that all of us should be doing on a more regular [00:26:00] basis. You mentioned very briefly before About depression. Where does that come into your story? Um, my the great unanswered question is whether it's, um, something genetic or, um, situational. Um, I have always struggled. I've never identified it because, um, I, you know, I was kill a mother with the husband and two Children, [00:26:30] and we don't go there, you know, too busy baking cakes. Um, in my thirties, um, it came to a head, Um, So I sought, um, help for that. Um, I would say that a lot of my feelings of depression are probably based on feeling invisible. And then if you go back to what I've just said actually about being invisible, that that's probably [00:27:00] got a lot to do with that. And maybe in hindsight, um, being married and choosing that life didn't necessarily assist in the long term. My mental health. Um, having said that, it was before I got married that I was depressed, and I still suffer from it now. Um, so I guess it's just part of who I am. Um, So I function just occasionally I elect not to get out of bed. Basically. [00:27:30] Did you know at the time. Like when you're 17 or 18. Did you name? Could you name what? It was? Depression? Um, no. Um, I've always had a sadness at times in my life. Um, I think because my mother suffered from postnatal depression when I was five, and had a had a huge battle her life. I don't think it's something I ever [00:28:00] chose to explore, because once you start exploring it, you might I might have identified something that was, um, the same in me that was in my mother. So I would just be sad sometimes, Um, and more sad, other times and not sad at all and completely manic at other times. Luckily, I don't I I fall quite nicely [00:28:30] in in the middle of the spectrum. Um, so I don't ever get so down that I can't live, and I don't ever get so high. Um, that I'm jumping off buildings, so it's manageable. Um, and I live very much consciously a life that looks after who I am. Um, so I don't work full time, and I just look after myself [00:29:00] and does this time with your kind of experience with fitness and and and kind of getting active. Um, later on, um, I. I still question now how on earth I ended up, um, in fitness. It it makes sense to me now, 17 years later, Um, but at the time, me being a perky jump up and down aerobics instructor was a complete antithesis of who I thought I was. Um, so I just got into it because, um, it was a great [00:29:30] way of getting thin and jumping up and down in front of other people, um, over the past few years, probably only in the last, um, partly after having kids, Um, in the last five or six years, realising that, um, fit fitness is a funny word. Exercise and wellness, um, is a whole lot more, um, holistic, but also [00:30:00] that the fitness industry has a lot to offer, but it's got huge shortfalls. Um, and because I wasn't I'm not attached to a brand or have, um, any great aspirations, um, to get incredibly successful within a company. I've had the opportunity to be able to, um, study and investigate depression [00:30:30] and, um, exercise and things like that that you wouldn't necessarily get rich off. Um, so yes, That is very much where my interest has come. Um, and I also work with, um I call it gay fitness emergencies. Um, someone, very interestingly the other day, said it's really a difference between gay and straight people and fitness, and the answer is absolutely not, but, um, just working on that visibility. Um, So these days, I do, [00:31:00] um, a combination. I train behind the scenes. I train up people who work in fitness, um, instructors and, uh, personal trainers. Just putting in my version that the world is not, um, square. It's not one shape. Um, and then the other half I work, um, with in community working with, um, what I call everyday people, which, uh, would be, [00:31:30] um, LGBT, uh, depressed people, overweight people, non exercises. Um, my assumption, being anyone who's perky and jumping up and down in the gym is actually the minority. Um, so everyone the conventional fitness industry doesn't work with or identify with. I'm just going to ask you to just rewind a wee bit, because I'm interested that, uh, earlier on you were saying that you're a bit of a couch potato kind of going through school. [00:32:00] What happened to suddenly push you into fitness. I mean, was it because you wanted to do the kind of body? Beautiful thing? Was it to get exercise? What was the moment? Where you suddenly thought I want to. I need to get into fitness. Um, I think it probably was as a way of, um it it was an aesthetic thing. Um, I started off because, of course, I couldn't have gone out in public. Um, because I was very shy. Um, in those days, I got the [00:32:30] old, um, Jane Fonda. And it was Jane Fonda. Um, yeah, it was, um I'm that old, um, and did it in my lounge, actually, um, and then decided that I would join a gym and do some classes there, Um, and then decided that I might train up as an aerobics instructor. So it started off very much. Um, from there, I didn't have a, um a strong career. I was doing odd jobs, so it was like, Oh, well, maybe I could make some money [00:33:00] out of this. Um, as you discover soon after starting to teach aerobics, as we called it in those days that, um, your body actually can't keep up with doing that for a living, So I thought, Well, I'm in this fitness thing. I may as well go and train and become a, um they didn't even have personal trainers in those days. Um, so it grew from there, um, and then worked. I've worked. Always worked in commercial what I call commercial fitness, Um, which [00:33:30] is in in membership gyms, um, and then ended up, um, working through there and ended up managing and owning a club. So I went right through, so I eventually got my nice, real job. I'm sitting behind a desk, as you do when you work in fitness. Um, so it was, uh I fell into it, I think, by accident, because I wanted to get fit, and then it just grew from there. Is the [00:34:00] fitness industry in In your experience, is it kind of, uh uh, open, liberal conservative? I think it's I would say it's actually really conservative. Um, I think there are, uh I wouldn't say it's at all homophobic or anything like that. I just think as a commercial industry, a lot of, [00:34:30] um, businesses, be they people or, uh, big gyms are focusing on the masses. And I think there is a definite belief that if you specialise too much that you're cutting off as soon as you advertise yourself as being the gym for a certain type of person, then everyone who's not that certain type of person will obviously, you know, run a mile and and never come in. So I think there's a conservative [00:35:00] there, Um, probably like every other industry. Um, but, yeah, I see it as as quite conservative. Um, there's not a lot of people, um, taking on great political, um, acts or or anything like that. It's a very commercial industry, I think, um, and with personal trainers and things like that, it's very much you haven't got people signed up for the rest of [00:35:30] their life. Um, people don't need gym memberships. They don't need personal trainers in the same way that they need food, um, or to pay the rent. Um, so it's it's commercial and people very much being the one size fits all that's generalising, but yeah, quite conservative. I'm a stranger. I'm very odd. I'm a freak in my industry. Over [00:36:00] the time that you've been working in fitness, have you seen any change in attitude towards, um, the way that both men and women perceive their own bodies. I'm thinking that, you know, over the last 20 or so years there, it seems to be that the imperative for having a beautiful body has has grown more and more. What are your thoughts on that very much. The interesting thing is, and I and I've been in fitness for 18 years is that [00:36:30] it's become, and that contradicts what I've said before. But, um, it's actually become more embracing of. It's like that. The body beautiful has become more, um, more invasive. But on the other side, the, um, less fit and I've always worked in in women's fitness. Um, 15 years ago, you would never we do weights [00:37:00] and measures. Anyone over sort of 100 kg wouldn't be anywhere near a gym, whereas now there are people who are very injured. Um, very overweight, um, now coming into gyms. So I think it's gone in both directions. Um, the bodybuilding, um, side of things has reduced. I think every second person was a bodybuilder 20 years ago. Um and that's that's gone. [00:37:30] But I think it's just been replaced by something a little bit different. It's just a different aesthetic, Um, so that the the the concept of perfection has got harder to attain to. But the people at the other end being fed into the machine are, um, a lot more diverse. Um, so far as as weight and, um, injury and things like that. Do you think there's more [00:38:00] pressure on queer people to, uh, go to gyms and to to go for that, that body beautiful image nowadays, I think it's a um, yes, I would. I, um, work quite a bit with gay men, and I it seems to be more. It seems to be stronger with gay men. Um, it's the perfect but very much the tightest. Little to, [00:38:30] um And I think so. I think Yes, it is. There is that perfection. Um, the interesting thing about the media. So that's mean. The interesting thing about the media is that we as a general population haven't necessarily changed. Um, but the images we're getting, um, presented have, so I don't think I think it's it's probably not just a gay thing. [00:39:00] Um, and that's that's I think gay men are probably more, um, have got more pressure than straight men. I would say, definitely, um, women are a little bit different. I think there's more, um, gender fluid. So for every woman that's trying to be androgynous, there's equally women who are trying to be curvy. Um, so it's There's not 11 choice of perfection, so you can choose between, [00:39:30] you know, two. but it's got It's got more difficult if you think about in the eighties. If you think of, um, for women, if you think of of Cindy Crawford or even, um, Arnold Schwarzenegger or that, uh, uh, that when you look at pictures of them now how flawed they are compared to today's standards, [00:40:00] Um, how much heavier women were allowed to be, how less toned. Whereas if you compare to the images now, um, so it is, I think, yes, it is a lot harder. Um, I don't necessarily think that's all a gay thing. I think that's a a general population thing. Um, for women especially. I think there's probably [00:40:30] a fair bit of politics in my experiences, obviously, as a woman behind the women's movement that, um, there is a percentage of, um, feminist lesbian women who part of their self identity is being against all those images. So I think that's quite a strong thing coming through. Um, not all groups. So I think for women [00:41:00] that counterbalances that So as a fitness instructor, when somebody comes to you and says I want to look like that, um, what are your thoughts in terms of do do you push them into that image, or do you say no, you you you need to have the confidence of being yourself Or, um, I work very much. Um, if someone comes to me and says they want a particular body type, um, I would tend to actually send them to another trainer. Um, because I don't work full time. Um, And my, um, [00:41:30] where I work best is with people who can't or aren't interested in attaining perfection. There are, uh, a thousands of personal trainers and people working in fitness who can tell you to exercise more and eat less and give you perfection. Um, so if I do get a person who would like to who has an image in mind, um, then I tend to actually talk them through What? The reality of that is [00:42:00] that yes, it is attainable. But I think we're not taught as general people. Actually, what the investment and the cost is of that perfection that in order to, um, be the size, for example, in the media of the the size, you know, the size zero women, actually, how many calories, how much you eat to actually maintain that figure and how much exercise you have to do. [00:42:30] Um, and that yes, it's possible. But what you're signing up for because I think we get told a lot that all we have to do is eat less and exercise more, and we will attain perfection. Um, and the reality is, um, that you are trading potentially for a lot of the the locks, especially the the very, um, lean lock and also the the the big muscle lock that you're trading a fair bit of health, [00:43:00] um, to get that perfection when your, um, your business is being famous. Um, and you're making large quantities out of mo uh, making movies and being in the media. Then that's a fair trade. You know, stop eating and and make hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's a perfectly reasonable choice to make, um, for the average person. It's a question of whether it's worth the investment. Um, it's like all blacks, it's [00:43:30] and and high level sports people. Um their bodies generally are ruined by being competitive sports people. But that's OK, because you get paid, uh, a good amount of money. And you can pay for the surgery later. Yes. If you're not getting that pay packet, then perhaps, you know, do a cost benefit analysis of what osteoporosis is gonna cost you, or knee reconstructions and things like that. [00:44:00] Um, I'm a bit of a realist when it comes to this sort of stuff. Sure you can have it. Sure. You can look like Cameron Diaz. Just give up food. I'm wondering if we could just cover off. If, um, you had some advice for queer people, and maybe we should break it into age groups. So, like, kind of young, middle age and older people who have never done a lot of exercise before. Um, what would be the advice that you would [00:44:30] you would kind of impart? Um, I think for all age groups, um, for everyone is that when you're not exercising and you start exercising. It feels like crap. Um, and that's not because you're completely feeble and unfit. That's just because that's what happens when you exercise. Um, I think once again, we get fed those lines that, you know, you just run around the block five times, um, we run around the block, you know, half a block, and it feels [00:45:00] so terrible. Um, so just expect that it's not necessarily easy. That doesn't mean it's not worth it. Um, so far as, um, aesthetics and looking at the perfect body, Um, that what is marketed as perfection is can be quite difficult. Um, and that our brains are really, really smart. Um, smart things [00:45:30] that work independently, um, and can affect the way we see ourselves. Um, with media, we could see, um, people that look like us, they could be exactly us. And we would, um, judge them less harshly than we would ourselves. Um, and I think with, uh, depending with gender identity, Um, as well as sexuality. [00:46:00] Um, I think there's a whole new a whole different, um, set of standards, um, that that we aspire to and just being a little bit realistic about it. And it's about improving your life rather than, um, looking perfect. Um, exercise on its own is it's good fun. But if you're only doing it to look perfect, that's the only motivation. It's really difficult to keep it up [00:46:30] in your experience. Uh, why do people do it? What? What What are the main motivations? Um, I think people, most people start exercising. Um, if they're not starting young for sporting reasons or it's been a natural part of their life, um, it's to make up for an inadequacy in themselves. Um, be that, um, too wobbly, Too skinny, too fat, Um, too red in the face when they walk up the stairs. Um, [00:47:00] people stay exercising because it, um, contributes positively to their lives. Um, the trouble is, is that being in a head space of starting to exercise because of an an an an adequacy in yourself is not a good motivator to keep going? Um, I think that's one of the biggest shames of our, um the fitness industry is [00:47:30] that it is based on or has been based on people feeling bad about themselves and having to fix it. Um, when really we should be focusing on how good we are, and therefore we deserve to live a little bit longer and have an easier life by exercising. So I think it's a little bit mixed up like that. Um, that's something I work in with a lot myself. I work with Home programme. People who [00:48:00] aren't confident wouldn't set foot one exercise outside, but they'll do it in their own homes because they're not confident enough they don't deserve to go to gym. Um, and I think that's a huge shame that that that's how we've set ourselves up. Um, so the way you start is not necessarily the way to to continue. So you were managing a gym, but now you're doing kind of personal training. So what? What happened there? Um, [00:48:30] I ended up behind a desk doing purely, um, office work. Um, which was not that much fun. Um, I was part of owner of a business, and I got, um, another person, um, in to help me out, and this person made it more and more difficult for me to, um, exist in the workplace. Basically, my options of remaining in the business became more [00:49:00] and more limited. Um, it came to a head when I got offered a, um, an amazing opportunity, um, which was based in part on, um, my personality. My, uh they identified it as my quirkiness because I did ask, Why have I got this thing? We think you're really quirky. Um, and, uh, this woman took me aside and suggested very firmly, um, that I [00:49:30] was not a good role model. My way of being was, um, not appropriate. Um, that I represented something other than what I should, uh, should represent, um, it became very clear that she had issues with my sexuality. Um, not something I'd actually ever um, come across that directly. Um, I think we kind of can [00:50:00] live in a bubble and that a lot of people who are homophobic will stay out of our way. Um, which is quite nice, actually. Um, so, um, I had to, um, make some decisions to save myself. Um, that was the defining moment, um, that essentially, um apparently, people were, um, members were fairly disgusted about [00:50:30] my, um, sexuality. And people have been making comments, and I was, I don't know, I had a funny haircut. That was inappropriate. And apparently, tattoos are are not a good representative. Um um, I had to question her at the time, because I I did ask her what it was about a, uh, a 35 year old woman with, uh, two young Children. That wasn't a good what was not average about that. Um, but it did turn out. It was my, um, sexuality. [00:51:00] Um, I chose not to to call I. I did call her on it. Um, I chose not to, um, take on a legal battle. Um, out of misplaced, um, loyalty to the other people involved. Um, you know, you earn a living. Um, you've got Children to protect. Um, and I actually didn't, um, [00:51:30] trust what the outcome would be. I was also, um, having been bullied for for the six months prior to this. I was not in a good state. Um, so I, um I had to leave. Um, and I think from that point I I had, um I still have my family, but career wise I I was a clean slate. I was sitting in my lounge with with no income, um, and [00:52:00] a huge disappointment. I think, um, it the complacency of the people that had let that happen. They weren't in the room, but everyone knew what was going on. Um, but protected themselves. Um, And while I, I don't You can see how that happens, and and I don't blame anyone. I think it left me pretty disappointed about being part of a big machine. [00:52:30] Um, so I made a couple of decisions. I decided that the way I was was to be celebrated. It's not something I'd ever had to, um, question no one in my life had ever had an issue with my sexuality. I I'd never come across it at all. Um, so suddenly I saw that people potentially had issues. Um, and I had two options. One was to, um, go into [00:53:00] a closet. Um, and the other was to say, actually, this is not how I want to live. Um, So I decided to not work for a brand. Um, again, Um, because when you're responsible for a brand, then you have to kind of shut up potentially for the good of the brand and that I was going to have my, um, sexuality written on my website. So anywhere I worked or any work I chose to take on, or [00:53:30] anyone who chose, um to employ me or contract me was doing so, um, in the knowledge that, um, my sexuality and my individuality, um, was something they were choosing, Um, so then they had to choose to have me. It wasn't that they could accidentally get all my parts, my depression, my sexuality. And it's not just sexuality, [00:54:00] but they actually had to jump over that hope before I would invite them into my working life. Um, so that was a huge discipline. Um, but through doing that, I've had amazing opportunities and done some cold stuff. And that's why I ended up doing, um, working with depression and things like that. Because just as you take, um, sexuality is something that [00:54:30] is other, that in the world, most of the world is other. There are the happy people. And then there is the other people who are mentally ill and depressed and anxious. And then there are the the the dominant culture. And then there are the the the people of other ethnicities and other colours. So I reversed it and went, I'm only going to work with other, um, and it's worked [00:55:00] out so far, So not rich. Um, but very much an exercise. I was lucky I had a partner who was able to support me for a time. Obviously. You wonder, you know, living in AAA car on the edge of the street. Um, so I could still have a house. Um, but that was a really good, um, a really good experience and having the fact that I had because [00:55:30] of the experience with the with this woman pretty much hit rock bottom, Um, having to actually claw my way out of that at the same time. Um, I had some amazing opportunities that came up. I got, um, one of the core issues with, um this this person in my workplace was that I got, um, a job working, um, on the good morning show. Um, that was what she had an issue of, because [00:56:00] I was going to be, you know, on the TV. Um, I don't think she thought that, you know, gay people should be allowed on the TV or anywhere in public. Um, so that was brilliant, too. Um, So I had things like that that kept me going, um, and then picking up clients and um, personal trainings. Actually, I've ended up. I do very little personal training these days. I do quite a bit of writing, um, on nontraditional [00:56:30] fitness. Um, So instead of writing for, um, fitness magazines, I write for all the magazines where people who aren't fit read, um, and do some. Um, like I said, do some work with training other trainers, which was just me behind the scenes, actually educating the people in the industry about the fact that most of the people they're dealing with are potentially other as well. Speaking of [00:57:00] celebrations and pride, we've got the out games coming to Wellington next year in March. What does the out games and also the conference and and everything around the out games? What does that mean to you personally? Um, I think it's awesome. I, um Wellington, uh, I know that know the the team that are running the art games have been working towards it. It's been really interesting being in Wellington and watching, um because every January February, [00:57:30] we've got the um out in the square and that has been getting bigger every year with the art games being, you know, the the jewel and the crown. Um, it's it takes. I think it takes it away from just being party and just being, uh, a social event, which is absolutely awesome. Um, but adds a whole different, um, level to it. Um, it's international. [00:58:00] Um, so that's that will bring in a whole lot more people. Um, and I think it's also being a sporting. I think it's really easy for people to go. That's just those, um, so far as visibility. Uh, that it's like the Mardi Gras factor. Oh, let's go and see all the colour. You know, queer people, um, in the square. You know, we don't need to go to the museum this week. We can just go in and pick up some local culture. Um, I think [00:58:30] it takes it out of that and, um, puts a new angle. Not that we need to prove ourselves to the outside world, but I think any visibility, um, is is good. And I think having a, um, sports events that are, um, are queer friendly, um, is huge, because I think I've worked, um, a little bit with, um with gay men [00:59:00] who have struggled with the macho images and their experience of exercise and sport has been defined, um, by feeling like the £98 weakling. So I think this gives an opportunity for perhaps the next generation to see that to not be defined by that, Um, and it's also a It's not just very competitive [00:59:30] with things. There are the the non-competitive stuff as well, which is not very much a feature of big sporting events like that. It's all about being the best. It's good that there's that mix of of the two. So I think it's amazing they're doing such a good job. It's all over the place. And the fact that they've got my photo and my partners on the front page of the website also adds to the you know, hey, just finally I'm wondering, um, what do you think in terms of kind of health, well-being and fitness, What are the biggest issues facing, [01:00:00] uh, queers today? Um, I think for a section of, um, let's start with women, I think, um, going back to what I said before about the anti um aesthetic and in, um, segments of, um, the the lesbian community. I think that can be potentially a hindrance to the positive aspects of fitness, [01:00:30] Um, things like, um, cancers if you are, um, not comfortable with. And I think once again, the experience of perhaps older, um, women not wanting to go and get health checks makes you more, um, prone. If you've got If you're concerned that your doctor is homophobic, then you're not going to necessarily be as honest. Um, and I can imagine for gay men so far as, [01:01:00] um, more, uh, disease prevention and things like that that if you're not comfortable talking to your doctor, then things can be missed. Um, other than that, I think it's the general issues that we all face. Um, so far as health, which is the fact that we can, um, buy anything we need, Um, food wise. Um, so there's far too much, um, good food in the world [01:01:30] and far too many cars and things like that and sedentary jobs, and I think that's universal.
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