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Julie, you've bought in, um, some archival material for us to have a look at, and one of them is called. It's a little journal. It's called outfront Lesbian Political activity in a 1962 to 1985. And it's by you. Can you just tell us a little bit about what that booklet was about? It's, um I wanted to put this together because, um, I knew there was a lot of material around, um, but not accessible, not visible [00:00:30] and not allowed to be visible as well. Um, and I was a bit worried. Um, you know that we would lose, um, elements of our histories and how we operated here in this country as lesbians. And, um, So I decided to try and document as best I could. Um, what I knew about, um So I put this booklet together as a historical resource for our communities. And when did you When did you put it together? Um, I actually published it, I think in about 1993. [00:01:00] Um, so it took a couple of years to pull together the information. And, um, quite a number of lesbians contributed and helped me with, um material and information and, uh, things, uh, events that they had been involved in. Um, I wanted to cover, um, lesbians in the feminist movement. Lesbians, um, in in the gay liberation movement. Um, there's been feminist activity publications, our meeting places. So I've tried to document, um, clubs [00:01:30] that people knew about and so on. So, um, I, I hope, is that this it's a starting point for a whole lot of, um I hope it expands and, you know, leads people to do lots more research because there's a whole mine of information here, and, uh, stuff we can learn from If people wanted to get hold of the journal. Now, where would they find it? Um, they'll find it in libraries. Um, and I've got some copies left, so I can, um, make make those copies available to people. [00:02:00] Um, if they can contact me at Julie G at pearl dot co dot NZ when you, um when you put it out, Um, did you get a great response to it? Yeah, I did. Um, people were very pleased. Um, one woman said, Thank you. You've given me my history back because she'd left New Zealand and had been away. You know, like you said you had for a bit. Um, she'd been away for about 20 years, and it must, um, you know, was not here during all of the events that had happened. Um, [00:02:30] and, uh, and she liked the pictures. Um, at the time I published this Self published it. So it was, um, limited limited funds. Um, so it's black and white pictures, but nevertheless, they're there, And, uh, and she found it great to see the images and to read about the events. So there was, um I was pleased with people's response to it and gathering the information for it. Did you just put a call out to people? Yeah, um, I asked people. And also I had, [00:03:00] um, newspapers. Um, I had two volumes of socialist action newspapers, and they were good with the main newspapers at the time. Wouldn't even print the word lesbian or wouldn't even use the word homosexual. Um, and you couldn't put an ad in with the word lesbian in it. Um, Socialist action. Um, reporters, um, reported lots of protest events and had pictures and so on. So that was a great source for 19 early seventies information. What would [00:03:30] be some of the highlights in the journal? Uh, well, I think, um, the whole thing is a highlight to me. Um, I, I especially liked putting in the the Gay Liberation Front, the Auckland Gay Liberation Front manifesto from May 1972. And when I read it now, I still think, Yeah, that's right. You know, um, because it ends with we do not intend to ask for anything. We intend to stand firm and assert our basic rights. [00:04:00] So not, you know, going around and trying to, um, get people to give us something which is ours, as of right anyway, um, but to demand and take what is rightfully ours and and, you know, to assert that we are OK people. So I think that was quite good. I think the highlight other highlight would be just, um, having it finished and giving it to people and making it available and having such a good response at the time. So, uh, who's [00:04:30] on the cover? Uh, on the cover is a picture of Amy Bock, actually, um, and, uh, this was from, uh this was made available to me by Fiona Clark, Um, the photographer. And, uh, she had, um, come across a collection of, um, photographs and quite a lot of photographs of Amy Bock and her, Um, um, the people around her in Taranaki. And, [00:05:00] um, Fiona, I think had met, um, uh, one of the people who was with Amy Bock. Um, and she was in her home, and she had a whole collection of photographs and allowed Fiona to have access to them. Um, and Fiona allowed me to reproduce this and put that on. Tell us. Tell us why. Amy is significant. Because Amy Bock is famous in New Zealand. General history is, um, a woman who married another woman. Um, but she posed [00:05:30] as a man, and so there's a lot of dispute around. How do you view Amy Bock? Was she a fraudster? Was she a lesbian? Was she a transgender or, you know, there's a lot of, um, debate and discussion around, um, Amy, but she was famous, um, in the early 19 hundreds for marrying another woman. Then she was found out, and then she had a, um a bit of a criminal history beyond that. Um, so And she was referred to. Um uh, she's referred to in in in many newspapers. [00:06:00] Um, you know, a after those events as a as a criminal and fraudster and so on. And I was interested also in her from another angle because I was researching, um, another woman who dressed in past as a man. Um, And, uh, when when they discussed the later woman's case, they referred to Amy Bock quite a bit. You've chosen a time frame. 1962 to 1985. Why? Why is that time frame special? Because, uh, 85 [00:06:30] I chose because it was just around the time of homosexual law reform and, um, I. I kind of was doing the work just after that. Um, and I thought, uh, and and 62 was, um, where I kind of started. Really? Um, and and they they're kind of arbitrary. The 1985 is convenient because it was too much to go forward. So I just thought OK, just, um, uh, kind of restricted to this time frame. And, you know, because [00:07:00] you can go on. And I just wanted to get something out and 62. Um, I would not put that now, I would think, um, let's extend Let's bring in more of, um, prior to 1960. But that's what I knew at the time. So yeah, it it was just a convenient mechanism to limit the scope of the work. That's all. And you haven't done any particular update or second edition of a different period. No, I went on to some other things. [00:07:30] Um, but I am thinking about a new project. So who knows? And you've put in some other bits and pieces, too. One is a fairly fantastic looking photo that is from the Dominion newspaper archives. And it's, um it looks like a gathering of people in a hall, and I think it looks like you might be doing a political snog. Couldn't can you, uh, can you explain to us what's what's going on in this photo? [00:08:00] Well, any snog is always personal as well as political. Um, the picture is a picture of myself and another lesbian, Um, Maxine Wilkinson, who was a friend of mine, and, uh, we we're standing up amongst a group of people who are seated in the Wellington Town Hall on in April 1985. Um, and uh, it's it was a rally. Um, which was organised [00:08:30] by, um, the anti gay, um, forces, um, who wanted to stop any kind of homosexual law reform? Any kind of human rights, you know, extension to lesbians and gays, um, transgender. And everyone, um, to to extend human basic human rights. So they wanted none of it, and they or they they got themselves pretty well organised and, um, held a series of meetings throughout the country. And this particular [00:09:00] one was in the Wellington town hall. And, um, we went along because we wanted to, um, counter what we knew. Um, you know, they might be saying, um, because already, uh, there'd been a meeting, I think, in Auckland and a meeting in lower Hutt and the the kinds of statements that were made by these anti anti gay people were quite revolting. Um, for example, one of the things they said was get back to the sewers where you belong. Um, and [00:09:30] that was just that's just, um, minor. Really. Um, so we went along there to basically disrupt and protest and, um, and part way into the meeting. So? So we arrived there and on the stage with the speakers. And, um uh, they just, uh stood up and said how revolting gays were that we caused aids that, um, you know, it was disgusting. Um, filthy and perverted. Um, you know, they talked about [00:10:00] that, um, gay men's sexual practises. Um, what they assumed to be or thought to be, um and so it was just really awful. And people were sitting and yelling and, um, calling out Oh, you know, You know, piss off. And, um oh, that's rubbish And all these kinds of things. And Max, I was sitting next to Maxine, and I just felt like we weren't actually doing it, so nobody was actually seeing us be gay if you know what I mean or be lesbian. [00:10:30] So I said to Max, let's just let's have a kiss. So we just stood up and she said, Yeah, so we stood up, and then we just really had a very big long kiss. And, uh, as you can see from the photo, people are standing up and holding their hands over their heads, clapping. People are smiling. People are around us. We were amongst our own supporters. I have to say there are a couple of non smiling faces a little further away, because there were a lot of Christians there and anti gay people. [00:11:00] And, um uh, and it was just fantastic. There was a camera there, a TV camera at the time, and they focused on us. Um, and so that was later on the news, Um, actually shown on the news. And that's what we wanted. We wanted to, um, have us at the forefront to have us as the focus of that meeting. Not the vile things that they were saying to bring back the focus to [00:11:30] us, uh, being living and being positive and, uh, and loving. So, um, the next day, um, this picture we like, I'm really pleased to have this picture. Um, it was taken by a Dominion photographer, Dominion Post, I think. Or one of those reporters. Um, and it was published in the newspaper. Uh, but the caption under it said, um, two gay men kissing. So it was like, lesbians are invisible everywhere, [00:12:00] but it's definitely not two gay men myself and Max Wilkinson. It looks like an absolutely packed hall. It was totally packed. It was just mayhem. Um, you could you could hear the speakers, but also, they were you know, we were just shouting and screaming. Some people were just opening their mouths and just going, Ah, just to drown them out and to stop from hearing all that vile stuff. Um, And I remember, um, up in the gallery. Um, I think there was, um, a couple of [00:12:30] other MP S looking down, and and I thought, uh, they they're kind of looking to see what they're going to get out of it. You know, that was my thinking at the time, but, um, anyway, it was, um I think it was the most successful, um, protest against the, um, against this awful rally. Really? Yeah. And I mean, they were so hateful. They were really hateful. It wasn't just we, you know, we don't agree with you as Christians, but it was you don't you don't be like you don't, um You don't [00:13:00] deserve to live as the message we got, which is quite extreme. Real hate. That's right. Total hate. And where that goes to, in the end, is murder. So, um, during the homosexual law reform campaign, um, there was a lot of violence against gay men and lesbians. And there are quite a number of documented cases of men just being bashed up on the street because, you know, they were assumed to be gay. And, you know, they were, um But, [00:13:30] um, when you have that kind of hate filled hate speech, um, and hateful ideas, um, as part of the mainstream, um, media and communication channels, well, that sets a ground work. It sets the ground and helps set a ground for, um perhaps, um, demented or violent people Or, um, just hateful people to go out and bash you up because you don't deserve to exist. So, you know, they think they've got a right to do that. [00:14:00] So how did you come to be involved in everything? Um Well, I've been involved in, um, gay liberation, you know, from when I first came out in, uh, Auckland University. And, uh, then when I came, I came to Wellington, actually, because I knew there was a club here, and there was a lot of action going on here and in Auckland there was as well. But, um, I just liked the idea of Wellington and the activity. And so when I came here, I got involved [00:14:30] in, um uh, they were actually, um um, you know, initiatives before the 1984 1985 work. Um, And I remember in the seventies, um, sitting with people and, um, gay liberation people, other gay liberation people in Mount Victoria in a small flat, drafting up, um, amendments, um, and submissions for, um, you know, human rights legislation to, you know, to come in. That was, of course, uh, unheard of, [00:15:00] uh, for most of them, You know, for most of the straight people at that time, but so I've always been involved. And at that time, I was involved with, um, lesbian groups. Yeah. What? What? Like who? Like, um, around that time we called, We called ourselves various things at different times. Um, but, uh, at that point, we called ourselves Lesbian Coalition. Um, and our aim was to support the, um, activities around the homosexual law reform, including the human rights [00:15:30] reform legislation. Um uh, but to do it from a lesbian perspective, lesbian and a lesbian feminist perspective, Um, a lot of people, a lot of women who had been involved in gay liberation early kind of left at different times because of the sexism and so on of a lot of gay men. Um, at that time, not all. But, um, so, you know, I just wanted to work in, you know, lesbian, um, specific groups. And, um, our [00:16:00] angle was, Well, we want to come to that campaign, um, from a lesbian angle. So and from a direct action angle. So I think the other point I wanted to make was that around around that time, Um, the MP who proposed the bill from wild, you know, in good honour. Um uh, she and I think maybe there was conservative conservative elements amongst the gay men as well as amongst lesbians. Um, And and they thought [00:16:30] the best way forward was to play it kind of play it cool, so to speak. So they didn't really want a lot of action on the streets or people in rallies because they thought that would then lead to violence, perhaps, or bad publicity. And then we would lose the chance of this. And that was not our approach. The approach that a lot of lesbians wanted to take. And so some of us thought no direct action You have to, um, directly say what you want and demand [00:17:00] it. And so the more out we are, the better. Um And so, like, in this pamphlet that I brought along, um, some of the things we said, uh, what what can be done? What can be done to fight back against the people who don't want this legislation to go through. So remember, that was, at the beginning of 1985 that all of this stuff kicked off. The bill was finally passed into law in 1986. And, um so throughout, 1985 there was, [00:17:30] um, Salvation Army running around getting people in rest homes and schools and churches everywhere to sign a petition against having this legislation in place and against our rights. And there were churches, Catholic Church. The bishops of the Catholic Church said, This is terrible. Um, other churches came out against it. The Salvation Army was a particular, um, unpleasant, um, you know, group that [00:18:00] pushed this. And, uh, and the the anti gay people brought in speakers from overseas, like conservative Christian conservative speakers to say how vile homosexuals were. And you know, So, um, so we thought Well, what can be done? So I'm just reading from the from it. Now it says right to or visit your local MP. Ask her or him to support 16 as the age of consent for gay men. Human rights for lesbians [00:18:30] and gay men. No criminalization of lesbians because we were frightened that that might happen. Make a submission to Parliament. Push your union and other groups you belong to To make supportive statements and write submissions. Join lesbian action. Do your own thing. Get friends, family workmates to support the bill. Um, there are other things. Pickets, um, write write up. You know, in our magazines. Um, you know what? What can be done. And then, um, there was planned for, um, a lesbian Gay pride week. [00:19:00] Um, march in May, Uh, and there was a this was in Wellington, and there were others around the country later, um, but for the Wellington march, um, the conservative elements of the pro law group, um, said no don't have a march. It's going to cause trouble. It's gonna, you know, do this. It's gonna bring out the hate, and, um but the march went ahead, and it was highly successful. There were, I think, thousands of people there [00:19:30] marching in the streets and I mean, I'd marched in the streets in Wellington for abortion law reform for, um, one of the biggest ones in the seventies against the security Intelligence Service bill, which would have, you know, clamped down on, um, you know, expanded the powers of the Secret Service and, um, of Intelligence service. Um, and there were 10,000 people on that march. Um, and in 1981 during the Springbok tour, So there were thousands of people on the streets then And, um, contrast with that. My history [00:20:00] in the past was, um, walking down Auckland Queen Street in 1974. About 300 people. Maybe that, um, but not very many. And, um, thousands of people on the side looking at us and pointing it was a gay liberation march. It was a gay pride march. And, um, just feeling very, very thinly, thinly surrounded and outnumbered by the people [00:20:30] staring at us and pointing and laughing and, you know, being abusive and so on, um And then to have that march in Wellington where there were thousands of people for lesbian. You know, for lesbian and gay rights. Um, that was fantastic. And I think it was most positive. And I always think it's it's much positive to stand up and be proud and say, no, we're here, you know? You fuck off you you fuck off you hide. You hide your hate. You should be hiding your hate, not proclaiming [00:21:00] it. And we should just be acting normally as ourselves. Did you speak at any of the matches? Um, I spoke once at parliament, and I forget why now might have been for something else, but I do remember saying, um, we don't, um We don't ask for our rights. Uh, we we demand and take our rights. Yeah. Um, no. I was, uh, apart from that exhibit in the town hall, Um uh, yelling [00:21:30] generally with other people. So, um, I remember going to the Salvation Army, um, hall here in Wellington, and I really like singing rather than speaking in front of a big group. And so we went there and we were singing, um, great tunes like, um, yes. Jesus was gay. Yes. Jesus was gay. The Bible tells us so. So I don't know if it did But anyway, that's what [00:22:00] we're seeing. And to the poor, poor people going in and out of the Salvation Army Church on Sunday. So but, um, the things like that I think built, um, pride And, um uh, just, you know, all all those kinds of activities I think are really important and do make a difference because it's telling the other side, Actually, we're not going away. And actually, we don't like what you're saying about us, and neither should you be saying it. And, um, so we're just going to keep on being [00:22:30] out there until we get what we deserve and what we need. So did you find yourself having to explain or be involved in explaining to other lesbians why it was important to be part of something that essentially could be seen as only benefiting gay men? Yeah, totally. Um, a lot of lesbians thought, Oh, it's just a bill about men because the emphasis was on, um, changing, getting, um, you know, uh, making, um, consenting acts between men legal, [00:23:00] um, which they had been illegal and to get an age of consent of 16. There'd been previous initiatives where the consent age of consent for gaming was proposed to be 21 and then I think 18. And then, um, this one was 16 or came to 16. Um, but, you know, um, in the previous initiatives, people had said, Oh, why don't you make the age of consent 90? Because that's what you really want. You don't want us to be here, So, um uh, yeah, a lot of lesbians thought that that just affected gay men. Um, [00:23:30] that wasn't true, because, um, from a number of points of view one is that, um there was the risk that during this law, in a discussion around the change of law that, um, there was a suggestion that lesbians should be included. So at that time, 1961 crimes act was the only thing that, um, affected us Where, um, it there was a, um a clause [00:24:00] that said a woman over the age of 21 if she had, uh, it was illegal to have sex with a girl under the age of 16, which was, you know, child protection. But, um, apart from that, there's no mention of us, and, um, so this would be a backward step to have lesbians explicitly mentioned in law, Uh, with the age of consent of 16. So we didn't want that. And we, um I think the other thing was there was human rights, part of the, [00:24:30] um, homosexual law, as it was first proposed, that was later dropped. Um, but there was human rights legislation as part of that bill initially, so that, of course, would have been beneficial, or some people would see it as not. But, um, we I saw it as beneficial. Um, And the other thing is, um, even though we weren't, um, in the same boat as gay men, so we weren't there wasn't a law against lesbians having sex with each other. Um, we were treated as such. [00:25:00] We were treated as if we were illegal. And, um, from the, um, uh, some stories from experiences from the early clubs. Um, like police were just, um, police took down the numbers of, uh, the car numbers of women going into Lesbian Club in Auckland and then went and harassed them and went to their employers and said, Oh, you know, um, so they did all that kind of stuff. Um, so we were, um, kind of in [00:25:30] some ways treated alongside. I mean, it's not the same. Uh, we couldn't be arrested just for living with our girlfriends. Um, whereas gay men could, um but, um, I think, um, you know, purely from a point of solidarity as well, we should have supported. Um, you know any of that kind of progress? Yeah. Do you remember the club scene in Wellington around that time? Yes, I do. Um, and as [00:26:00] I said, I came to Wellington because of the lesbian political scene. I want to be involved in it. Um, and, uh, at, uh, at the time, there was a club 41 which is not far from here. We were having this interview. It was 41 Vivian Street. Actually, I think it's a restaurant now. And when I go past it, um, you know, I wish it was different. Uh, it was called club 41 because it was at 41 Vivian Street, and, um, it was started by four women. Pauline Simmons. [00:26:30] Um, and I forget the other other two or three people. Um, anyway, they started up the club and it operated on Saturday nights and Friday nights, Friday and Saturday nights and sometimes on Wednesdays it was available as well. Um, and, uh, there was a jukebox so you could go and play all these really neat old songs. Um, and, uh, uh, it was subject to being raided by the police for, you know, if you had liquor and stuff, there weren't supposed to. And, um, [00:27:00] it's very funny because, um, you the doorway that you went, you know, to go into club 41. There was a doorway next to it, And that was to, um, a sports club, which was upstairs. So I think it was might have been a soccer club. Or, you know, football club, something like that. Maybe it was a rugby league club. It wasn't a rugby club, so sometimes you'd come out from the club and there'd be, um, men and straight women going upstairs to the to the, um, sports club. Um, mostly it was OK, I think. [00:27:30] Um, but it was great. It was just a a small place. It was our own space. It was most important. And you could go there, and it was lesbian only. So, um, when I was in Auckland, for example, you could go to places like the Shakespeare Hotel in Albert Street and, uh, upstairs bar Shakespeare Hotel in the seventies. That was, uh, uh where, you know, the the went. And that's where the straits came to, um, to, you know, um, was it to do sightseeing? [00:28:00] So you'd go up there and, um and then and you'd figure out who was straight, who wasn't. And the straits were usually sitting, you know, steering. Um, and that was most uncomfortable as well. Um, unless you're in the mood. So sometimes you'd feel in the mood and just show off. Um, And other times, um, it was just horrible. Yeah. So places like Club 41 were really, really important. We could go and not have to have any explanation and not be harassed by men. Um, or, you know, [00:28:30] straight women. Um, so it was It was really good. It was a centre for a lot of political meetings. Uh, social gatherings, Um, all sorts. Yeah. It's good. Um, how many people could be there? I don't know. Quite a lot. Um, I don't know. You could get dozens and dozens of people in there. Do you recall other spaces around town Yeah, there was, um I think there was a club in Wigan Street. Um, was it above [00:29:00] a factory? Uh, yeah. Um, and then there was, um, the restaurant in, um, the grain of salt restaurant. So there was a place above the people could go. The Victoria Victoria. That's it. Um, it's Yeah, that's that's what I remember. And, um And you are You are a patron of these of these places? Yes, as much as I could be. Yeah, mostly, uh, very good in club 41. [00:29:30] Love going there. Did you find yourself being a target of any of the discrimination during the time? I'm a little bit insensitive at times, so I may have been, but not I don't remember exactly. I. I don't remember. Um I mean, other than the meetings and as a, you know, on mass as a group, um, in terms of specific, you know, direct to me. No, but [00:30:00] sometimes I'm polite, so, you know, I might not have noticed, um, this pamphlet that you were reading from before it looks like it's a photo handwritten photocopy. Yeah. Um, And how how are you distributing this? Um, this sort of material Yeah, that's a really good point, because, um, like, nowadays, there's, uh, Facebook, Twitter, instagram, all sorts of stuff so we can get out. You know, you can get [00:30:30] stuff out there, um, to a mass audience really quick and cheap. Maybe even no cost. Um, but at that time, um, even to get stuff photocopied that cost money. And, um, so everything was done on the cheap, um, free. You know, voluntary labour. Um, so this is actually it is handwritten. It's a four, and it's been folded in two. So it's a a five. And, uh, someone's, you know, coloured it in homosexual law [00:31:00] reform Bill, it's got with a little pink colouring there. And, uh, did you did you hand it out on the street? We handed it out. We handed it out at, um uh, at our our events. Um, and you know where there would be lesbians and yeah, So it was all it was manual because it would have been tricky to for people to have found out the information, even from the newspapers. Bugger all in the newspapers about what was coming up. So you had to be, um, involved in the meeting So if there was, like [00:31:30] a, um, a dance or, um, you know, a club event or something like that. Then this This material was handed out there, Um, so wherever lesbians, wherever there was a gathering that we go and hand it out and then at these big public events as well. So say say this events that we've got the photo of, um, at the town hall. How how would you all have gone about, um, organising that that size group of people to come along, Put the word out, put the word out so mouth to mouth. [00:32:00] And, um um, literally with mouth to mouth, actually, yeah, pity there wasn't more there could have been, I don't know, leading up. Maybe that's just the top, you know, after everyone else. But, um um, yeah, it was, uh, mouth to mouth. There were a couple of magazines. Um, so it would be it was in the magazines as well about what was coming up. But a lot of these things happened quite quickly as well. So it was really a ring around [00:32:30] and, um, literally, um, person to person. Yeah. And there was actually, um, on the radio um there was a radio at the time. Um, there was the women's radio, Um, the feminist radio station. And I forget when the lesbian radio station began, But there would be, um, made, um, made nine on the radio stations. Yeah. Yeah. Can you remember what you were doing on the night when [00:33:00] the of the third reading? Which was July the ninth? No, I can't. No one can remember everyone I asked. No one. No one remembers. I have no idea. I have. No, I don't even know where I was. I think I was in Wellington, but, um, yeah. No, I don't know. I have no idea. Do you remember celebrating? Well, um, only individually, like, you know, But no, not not not going out or anything like that. No, I don't. It's terrible. [00:33:30] Yeah. Most people I've talked to they they sort of I was in bed and listening to the radio as well. It was. Was it July? It was probably cold. Yeah. So why would you go out? Yeah, No, I have no idea whatsoever. Not a clue, because I've heard people talk about, um, sort of a large kind of community party that happens sort of a couple of months afterwards, but still a bit of a myth from [00:34:00] I can't I think I did. Um, I might have retreated to, um, you know, my own individual world. And, um, which, when I first came into the lesbian community in Auckland and I went to the K What was it was the KG club. At that time. It was down on beach Road, and, um, I looked around and I thought, Where where are all the old lesbians? Because most of the people that I saw looked like in their twenties, thirties, forties, maybe beyond [00:34:30] that? No. And I thought, Where are all the older lesbians? And I said to my friends, this was in the sorry KG club in Auckland in the seventies. And, um and I was a history student. Um, and, uh, I thought, Where are all the older lesbians? And I thought well, and I asked someone, and they said, Oh, as soon as they get a girlfriend, you know, they get married IE to themselves, not formal time. Obviously. Um [00:35:00] well, they just get married, go off into the suburbs and you need to see them again until they break up, and then they come back to the club and they need another girlfriend, and then they it's still true. Yeah, And And I thought, um, I don't want to do that. I want to be, you know, old when I'm old, I want to be there at the at the clubs at our clubs and have, you know, like, a full, full range, Um, so in in in our own in my own, uh, Croatian community, [00:35:30] um, when when we mixed in our community, it was full from nineties through to, you know, nine months kind of, You know, um, so everyone was participating in, um, events, And, um so I thought it was a shame that that's how it seemed to be at that time, I thought that I don't think that now, but, um, I think it's important to be involved in community so you can see yourself represented back to yourself through others, not just through [00:36:00] you. And that's very important. Yeah, because because, um, heterosexuals see that the whole time when you look at, um, like, uh, pictures, um, all forms of media TV movies, everything, um, they they look at themselves every day, and they can see themselves reflected back to themselves every day. And they think, Oh, I'll look like that person. I'll be like that person, and we don't see that as much. But we need to. So we need to swarm [00:36:30] the streets and the all these buildings around here that are vacant with no messages with our messages and pictures of ourselves. And one way to do that is to be in a community with other people and to, um, mix with other others of your own kind. How how are you involved in community now? Um Well, um, I belong to POLARI Floo, but I'm not here in Wellington now. So, um, I need [00:37:00] to join some groups in Auckland. Um, so I just this year shifted back there, Um, and in our own, um, where I live. Um, there's a couple of dikes down the road. And, um, so we have socials with them, um, separate from our socials with our more general community where we live. Um, So, uh, and I wanna and through writing through writing and publishing. And what sort of things are you? Are you writing about? Um Well, I just [00:37:30] published a book recently on, um, a person who lived as a man. Um um, in the 20th century in in A in New Zealand. And, um so I've just published well published in 2014. Um, so I've been thinking about my next project and what it might be, but I want to plug the book plug. What's the title of the book? The book is called perfectly natural. And it is about, um, Iris. Florence [00:38:00] Peter Williams. Who, um, was born a woman. Um, in the 19 thirties in Auckland. She had her breast removed so that she could, um, live as a man, and she married a woman in 1945. And that's how come I got to know about her because that was in the papers. And, um uh, they were arrested. Um, and, uh, so I wanted to find out more about her and how she lived her life. And she died in 1993 [00:38:30] in Auckland. Is Peter Williams? Um, she married? Uh, she, uh, lived married 1 to 3 other women at least after 1945 and I don't know how she would have described herself. Um, but I did get to speak to her very first wife and her very last wife and I. I truly believe that, um, Peter saw himself as himself. And, um maybe didn't [00:39:00] identify as transgender or lesbian or gay or whatever, but, um saw himself as as himself. Um, but, uh, anyway, it's, uh it was, uh, to me, it's a story of, um, uh, part of our community, um, surviving despite, um, the restrictions of the time. And you know, all the things that, um, he went through to be Peter. And what what's the name of the book again? [00:39:30] Perfectly natural. And that'll be in bookshops in the Woman's Bookshop and Unity Woman's Bookshop, Auckland Unity here, Um, perfectly natural are the words of Iris Florence Peter Williams. He said when he was arrested. Why do I have to be treated like this? I am perfectly natural. Um, when I was thinking about this interview, um, I thought, What's what is the point [00:40:00] of a You know, there's a point in doing it just of itself. Um, but I thought What what is it that was I wanted to say about the homosexual law reform, um, campaign and campaigns of that nature. And I think maybe there's two things. One is that that campaign in 84 85 86 that was built on the work of campaigns prior the work of the gay Liberation Front lesbian Lesbian movement, lesbian feminist movement, feminists, [00:40:30] all of that. All of that leading here and from overseas as well. Um, you know, the, you know, linking in with the movements in the states and England, Australia and so on. Um that, uh, that they provided, uh, that it was a slowly building foundation on which these things then can happen. And, uh, and the more recent legislation around marriage, equality and so on these are built on, in my view, on those past, um, [00:41:00] endeavours. Um so nothing comes out of things, just don't come out of thin air. They come out of something. That's why we have to know the history. And the second thing is, um, the thing, um of direct action that no matter what they say, people say no, you know, don't upset people. Don't, uh, you know, don't be visible. Blah, blah, blah. The message for me, after all this time still is being visible, is the most radical thing that you can do and being out is the most [00:41:30] radical thing that we can do in all its expressions and so to sort of have backroom deals. Um, in the hope of getting some, you know, bit of our rights, um, will not work. It's, uh you demand your rights and you take them and, uh and you do that is out visible. Proud, lesbian, gay, transgender into sex. It's You're out there. That's the That's the most radical thing.
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