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Uh, I'm near Simons. I am a filmmaker, a writer and director. I've been in working in the film industry for about just under 2.5 years, so I came to it fairly late in the piece. I'm Jo Lovelock. I'm a filmmaker, and I am. I have directed some stuff. I'm assistant director in production so far, and I've come to it even later than this because I've been doing that for about five years now. It's probably [00:00:30] career four for me. What film? It's something that I have always had a passion about, and I'm also a very visual person. The things that excite me are visual rather than written, although, you know, still like reading and know a good story. But that's the visual thing that, um, I find really exciting and also done always played around with cameras in terms of photography. And so the visual thing is, the [00:01:00] visual storytelling is the thing that I really like. Uh, I think for me, I really like story. I like story in almost every form, whether it's, you know, on the page on stage or in film. One of the big attractions for me with film is that it's collaborative and and there is that visual element, and I think, um, the ability for it to travel as well, you know, it can be it can be made in one country and go to any other country in the world. And so you get to see a different perspective. Um, and and and it's so accessible [00:01:30] on that level compared to compared to stage, Can you describe what kind of films you've made so far? Well, I made my I would say that mine was a little thriller, actually, the one that I did, I've made two, actually, two little thrillers, Um, and otherwise I've kind of taken a tack of It's pretty mainstream. A lot of the stuff that I've worked on, um, things like Separation City. Predicament Home by Christmas. The last series was the big [00:02:00] one that I worked on was Jane Camp. It's top of the lake, um, for myself, I've, uh, made a couple, I think three short do of, um, a music video, uh, short, uh, short narrative as well. Um, that are completed. Um, I'm also a writer, and at the moment, I've got, uh, two feature films. kind of in development and a couple of short films as well, One of which, that Jules and I are hoping we'll be shooting in [00:02:30] the next few months. So we got some funding through and shortlisted for some more. So, yeah, we've got our fingers crossed. What about queer specific film? Pretty much, Um, everything that I've made so far has, um, has certainly had a queer perspective in terms of, uh, a lot of the time, my main characters have been queer. Um, even, actually, even in the that I've made, they've all, um the the main people went on camera [00:03:00] have been queer. Um, I actually I had a kind of a funny conversation with my father, uh, last year, which, when he asked me about, um, why all my films have, you know, gay characters and and and And I kind of felt like I had to defend it and justify it. And and then afterwards, I ended up getting really frustrated by that and thinking, Well, why should I defend it and justify it? You know, why don't we have this content on screen? And why is it a big deal to have queer characters and I guess it made me start to think about you know [00:03:30] why? Um, it's important to me to have, um, queer characters in my work, and I'm not saying I always will, but I, um I certainly am not shying away from, um from making sure that queer characters are front and centre of stuff that are right. I, um, I think it's not something that I would That I would say, is if you like a constraint or a must have in anything that I do. And certainly, [00:04:00] um, I don't think I can even think. There's maybe one character in all of the projects that I've worked on, you know, across the spectrum where there's maybe been one queer character. And even then I think it might have been a joke. So it's not. It's not, um, I. I couldn't say that it's what I'm making or what I have been involved in as queer to date, but but I am. So does that count. Do you see yourselves [00:04:30] as queer filmmakers? I see myself as queer and a film maker not necessarily going hand in hand, and the concept of or the idea of queer film making for me and how I. I guess I would describe describe it because it is quite subjective is that it's more a happenstance for me if I was involved in the development of a story where it the character is queer. Um, [00:05:00] I wouldn't see I at least that you know, there's a ripple effect in the same way that people's interactions when they discover somebody is queer. That's what happens every day, you know, like in society if you like. But in film, um, I don't necessarily think that having the queer character means that. Therefore, the story is telling a queer story. My I'm more kind of going down the track of that. It's a good story rather than that. It's a queer story and what [00:05:30] comes from that, And if it's a if they I'd like the main character. I think it's something that I develop to be queer, but that's not what's defining them. It's the story and something else that's going on that is, in terms of whether I consider myself a queer filmmaker. I think it's really interesting that there are, um, you know, there's constantly kind of little times where you have to define yourself. And I am a filmmaker and I'm queer in the same way that I'm a person and I'm queer. And I think that there's times [00:06:00] where, um, yes, I might I might be considered a queer filmmaker, and I'm not going to run away from that label if that makes people comfortable to put me there. Um, but I, I am I'm a filmmaker who is influenced constantly by my perspective of being queer. And as much as I'm influenced by my perspective of being a woman or, um, being a New Zealander, all the other sort of parts that make you know are part of me. So I think, Yeah, it's interesting. And I think there is a real, um, [00:06:30] need sometimes for people to be classified in different areas, like, you know, like for some filmmakers, they might be the Maori filmmaker or, um, you know, the Pacifica filmmaker. And I think they go through a lot of the same sorts of things in terms of where do I stick my stake in the ground as well in considering it. And it can be, um, something that people fear in terms of getting funding or support or reaching a certain audience, or and and there are some of the challenges, and they are are quite real. [00:07:00] Um, at the moment, I haven't had any kind of, um, big barriers put up in terms of saying that I am a queer filmmaker. Um, so, yeah, I don't I don't They're not necessarily so such a big deal for me. Is that a fear that you would be boxed in as, Oh, that's a queer filmmaker? Sure. Absolutely. I think, um, you know, we we're still so limited by the kind of content that we see on screen that we would consider [00:07:30] queer and and, you know, there's a whole other discussion to have around what that is. And I think that that's probably something that everyone comes to from their own position, you know? Is it just having a central character? Is it the? The team behind making the film is that you know that the whole story has more than one queer character in it. Um, is it a queer perspective on the world, all those sorts of things And you know, when you start looking at things like that, you start shifting. Films are expensive. It's really expensive medium to be working in. [00:08:00] And so you do have to rely on funding in order for projects to happen. And you also need to have the audiences at the end of it so that you know that funding people don't want to just give you money to make film, you know, they're actually looking for a return. And so, um, you know, you do have to kind of keep some of that stuff in mind. And I guess for me, I feel like hopefully I'll know when to pick my battles on that level and and stick up for, um, you know, the story that I believe in without compromising anything and and [00:08:30] work out another way to get funding or whatever. Or Or there might be times where I can compromise because it's not essential to the story. And it might allow me to reach a broader audience or make a project. So yeah, I think, um, I'd like to think that we're in a place right now, though that, um that the place that we would normally go to get funding or anybody would go to get film funding, You know, at least they were people who were, you know, Salvation Army. I mean, um, you know that we we're not talking about [00:09:00] I. I wouldn't expect there to be an issue. In fact, I'll be surprised if there was an issue around that these days. I mean, you know, we have come a long way in New Zealand and, you know, we still have, you know, things that we would, I guess, have to make make a stand about and protest about. But I'd like to think that being turned down for funding because it's clear it is not something that we should have to deal with. And I'd be surprised, I think, if it was happening today, unless [00:09:30] it's somebody who's who's, uh or some corporation or a business or an individual, if you like. You know, a philanthropist who's decided that they're quite happy to fund film in some way, but they don't want to fund. Well, that's a I guess that's a very subjective and a personal reason for doing it. But I wouldn't think a funding body turn that down these days. I think it depends like my experience so far has been awesome. Actually, you know, on that level. I've had funding from Radio New Zealand from the Film Commission from the Emerging Artists Trust. [00:10:00] And for every one of those funding applications, it has definitely been queer content. Que central characters queer storylines. Um and I think, you know, it comes back to that thing around story, you know, develop your story and you know, there's there's that. If you can make your story strong enough, then it should transcend any of the kind of areas where people get a little bit nervous about funding. And, um, it's certainly been my experience to date. Um, that being said, I haven't [00:10:30] gone for future funding production funding. And you know, when you start talking about millions of dollars and they want to know it, it comes back to audience again for me. You know, they want to know, Are we gonna get you know, some of this money back and on one level there's this massive, um, platform of queer festivals throughout the world, and, you know, it's it's a really good market that New Zealand often doesn't have a voice in. But on the other hand, in terms of getting revenue back from those sorts of areas. I'm not sure you know about the business case for [00:11:00] that sort of stuff. And again, you know, prime time TV. Or if you start thinking about what your audience is, then you have to be realistic about the kind of content that you can put into those places as well. So I think it'll be interesting to ask that question again in five years time and see, you know where we've got to with the things that we want to be doing here. Yeah, I mean, it has if you look back through the history of New Zealand film, but film on a global scale, there have been different moments, Um, of [00:11:30] I guess, of importance within queer cinema, you know, And there there was kind of a moment where it was quite fashionable to have the coming out stories, and and they were more, um, welcomed and, you know, broader arena and stuff and a little bit at the moment with, um, you know, there's a lot of trans stories in terms of international film festival and stuff like that, that documentaries or feature films that seem to be quite popular, and that's awesome in terms of visibility and taking a different perspective, [00:12:00] you know, to a broader market. Um, so this year? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that that's a huge. That's a big moment, actually, In queer film history, I think it is. It is. I mean, I kind of, um you know, I have that one step further where I'd love to see it being a queer filmmaker and and especially with the storyline about lesbians. I'd love to see a female queer filmmaker being the one who is directing and writing and stuff that that film. And, you know, I don't know [00:12:30] whether it would be different or not on that level. But at the same time, I haven't seen the film yet. I don't think it's for release here in New Zealand yet, is it? But you know, at the same time, if it's a good story and it's authentic and it feels like, um something that's unique but universal at the same time, I'm I'm happy that it's been made. You know, how queer does a film have to be before it's a queer film? Like I mean, are we talking cast storyline? I think it, um I think it varies. [00:13:00] I actually think that the answer to that is what each individual person, uh, answer is to the what they consider a queer film. I mean, like, we talked at real queer, and they have their idea because of how they they want to target themselves in situation themselves, for the audience. But, um, it's so subjective. I think it's very difficult to answer that, except by giving your own opinion of it. Um, yeah, and I think it it depends as well, like a little [00:13:30] bit on, um, the market for it, you know, like in something like outtakes, for instance. Then I think that the kind of the parameters for what makes something queer need to be a little bit more obvious for the audience. Whereas, um, you know, if you're in a mainstream audience, maybe having a secondary character that's queer, that is in some way tied into the storyline means that we're getting queer films into those places. You know? It's, um, yeah, and and as II, I agree [00:14:00] with Joel. I think it is an individual kind of, um, point of view on that level about what makes it queer or not, and and you know that comes happens the same with, Um, we hear about women's stories. We never hear about so much about men's stories. You know that, um, women's stories become this other kind of classification because Tom Scott might disagree with you. Yeah, Tom Scott might disagree with me. Um, but we you know, we we have all these kind of classic classifications [00:14:30] about it's It's a little bit like, you know what I call myself a queer filmmaker. It's the same sort of thing in terms of Is this a queer film or not? A queer film? I think that it you can kind of look at it from different perspectives, and you can apply your checklist and all that sort of stuff to it. But really, it's only your checklist, and it might be a completely different experience for someone else. Can you talk a wee bit about the the kind of process of making a film like, How long does it take? What at what point do you want to start? [00:15:00] I mean, I think we did touch on it the other day, didn't we? It was, um, uh, you know, feature films can. There's there's nothing really definitive. I mean mentioned Tom again. I know that he spent. I think he had eight years or nine years with that script, trying to get it to the point where they could actually get it made. And not so much necessarily the work on the script itself from his perspective, but getting people to buy into the idea of it. And this is a guy that's got a, you know, [00:15:30] pretty lengthy, um, career and a quite a high profile. So, um, I think they generally speaking, I don't think it would be, you know, under five years for a feature film, just the pro script getting the script to a point where you feel you can have a crack at seeing if you can get the funding for it takes quite a while. And it's It's that How long have you been working on a feature film? Um, so on that level, like, I guess, um, you know, one of the things that I hear a lot as [00:16:00] a writer is, um, part of the reason that there's especially in New Zealand that there's so many writer directors is because writers are the only ones that can kind of drive that project for long enough that it takes to make it happen. And then that sort of process often end up or directors are the You know Jason Sutter is, you know, is a New Zealand filmmaker who's made a hell of a lot of films and has, you know, kind of put his hand up and said, Actually, he doesn't really want to write. He would rather direct, but that the length of writing [00:16:30] you know, the 7 to 10 year average for a feature film script to be developed to the point of production, um, means that you have to have someone that's going to be committed to that project for that length of time. And, you know, sometimes it is only that one person driving it, and and often with a producer may be helping along the way. But, um, yeah, I think, you know, after the waterfalls and another New Zealand film 12 years it took from, you know, her originally kind of wanting to make it to actually getting it to screen, and that's that's pretty normal, [00:17:00] you know, The other end of the scale is that when we you know you're at film school you're making a what is a short film, and you kind of do that within six months and go to work or the studios might be six months, but the others are winging it, you know, and you'll make the short film and there's some really good little ones kind of fall out of that. And you do that in maybe three months. Yeah. And it is, I mean, the short film that we're looking at developing at the moment. I mean, we are, um, [00:17:30] probably planning to shoot it in six months or things going to plan. But I first started writing that the first draught that I wrote was, um at the start of 2012, So I'm already almost 18 months from, but that does, you know, I'm not working on it the whole time, um, during that time, But I you know, from the original idea, it's kind of it's developed and changed a lot to where I could find a place to have it in a short film. That story in a short film. And, you know, it may change a little more again before [00:18:00] production. Hopefully not too much, but yeah, yeah, I mean, I think I I feel like again I feel like it's close, but I mean and that's quite sure you could, you know, probably bust something out in a few weeks and shoot it and stuff. But you know, how high is your bar? I guess. Who's going to go and see it? Is it is it actually worth seeing on the big screen, or is it something? You go here, Look what we made and you watch it on a laptop. You know, that can be the difference between and there [00:18:30] out in three weeks and and actually taking the time and let the gestation period be really lengthy because you're actually delivering quality. But it's, you know, it depends like I think that there is totally a valid place for this. The spit it out. I mean, you and I did that for the outtake specifically in mind. We wanted to have local content on screen. And so we, um, just went off to the, um out in the square fear. And part of that was about us going OK, we're going to work together. And how's that going to happen? And, you know, we made some mistakes. And we learned some things [00:19:00] along the way. Um, but, you know, I think I think there is, um, one of the things that I love now I remember really acutely being 14, 15, 16 and really struggling to find representations that I could connect with on a queer level. And yet, now, you know, we've got this amazing platform in the Internet where, um, people can be in the arse end of nowhere and still able to access a community or a culture that they're, you know, maybe [00:19:30] identifying with or questioning or wanting to know more about. And I think that's amazing. And on that level, you know, some of that stuff that gets spread out is not particularly the best way to spend your time. But, uh, every now and then I see stuff that blows me away. And I'm just like, Wow, these guys have done an amazing you know, it's it's got an amazing insight. Or, you know, there's something going on that I just connect with completely on a human level, and it doesn't necessarily always have to be about planning and time. It depends what you want to achieve, really, and I think [00:20:00] when you're looking at feature films and you've got, you know, multimillion dollar budgets on the line, Yeah, you have to spend the time because, um, you probably haven't put all that money up yourself, you know? So and, you know, I'm really realistic about that. Um um I kind of, you know, I have I have I guess I have the two hats and I came to writing before I came to, um to filmmaking. I've been writing for a few more years than I've been making films, and and I'm realistic. I Before that, I had I had a business background, and I understand [00:20:30] the value of money. And I understand you know how hard it is to save money to make money, whatever way you want to look at it. And I get pretty pissed off with, um, people within the film industry that have an entitlement kind of and actually not just within the film industry within creative industries. You know, I've made this great thing, or I've got this great idea, so you should give me some money. And often the people that have that attitude are the ones that don't develop to the point where you know you want to invest in them. Yeah, for sure. And I think [00:21:00] that there's sometimes an issue with that, Um, with queer content, you know that people can use that as an excuse for not getting funding when actually, it might have been, You know, they had a good concept or something was working, but they just needed to spend more time developing. Or they needed to get some other people helping them develop it. Or maybe it was a bit average. Yes, let's talk a bit about the out on the square film. And I'm wondering, [00:21:30] how was the crowd response when you were filming out on the square? Because I think I mean, there aren't that many queer films being made in New Zealand, are there? No. No. I was really surprised when I went to the launch for outtakes. And, yeah, I. I had this moment where I, you know, was, um was chatting to the organisers of outtakes and I said, you know, so how many films from Wellington and they were like, No, actually it was the only ones from New Zealand, and [00:22:00] I and I just had this moment of going really, really? Because I know how many queer people are in the film industry, and it's Yeah, it's, um I guess they're not making I mean, I know quite a few, too, but they're not everybody. You know. There's a whole bunch of people that have kind of that are working in the industry in the way that I have been to date, which is you're working on a whole lot of projects. But they're not your own personal ones that you're driving because you're trying to make a living out of it. So there's a whole lot of people doing that. And then there's other people who do this [00:22:30] over here and they're driving at the level. Um, you know, like writer director type stuff over here, they make their living doing something else. Um, and there's a lot of filmmakers around who do that as well. Yeah, all these. I mean, like for myself. I kind of still make my living within the industry. But I'm doing everything independently, and you know, that has its pros and cons. But essentially, it does, um, pay all my bills and give me the freedom and [00:23:00] allow me to make all the connections. I need to, um, to, you know, be working on my own projects and and put my hand up to work on other people's as well, because I think you know, that's important for me. I'm I'm way down the rank of where I, you know, in terms of what I can achieve with film at the moment. I know that, you know, my bar is so much higher than where I'm at now, but I just hope that I learn and improve every you know, every project I do, Um, And to come back to your original question, which was about the outtakes. Um, [00:23:30] I found people really receptive to being on camera. And, you know, we basically had a really short kind of spell about this is what we're doing, which was, you know, exactly that. We want to have local faces on screen. We want to kind of, you know, and yeah, and just, um you know, we basically had a bunch of prompts and people pulled out a prompt, and it might be a dream or I want or I hope, or things like that. And then they just finished the sentence and, um, and people tended to have a lot of fun with it. It was super interesting because it was, [00:24:00] um, between readings two and three of the, um uh, Marriage Equality Act. And that seemed to be pretty foremost for most people, you know? And I think actually at the at the fear itself, you know, in terms of what was being said on stage and stuff like that, it was quite it. It is a big moment in New Zealand's queer history. And so it was kind of nice to document that in a small way as well. And then we could do a part two, which is a follow up come through. What would they be thinking about next year? Yeah, [00:24:30] but, um, yeah, so it's kind of interesting and then, you know, to kind of carry that through, like so doing the submission and all that sort of stuff that there's so much time and that gets eaten up in film. I can understand what's so freaking expensive, but you know, from the from the concept or the writing of the script or the developing development of a plan for a or whatever through to actually shooting, and then you've got editing, which is usually double the time of, you know, planning and shooting a lot of the time, or even triple sometimes. And, um, you know, and and then [00:25:00] you might have the pro, the the product. But then you've got to actually get it out to the audience. And that's like a whole other amount of time In terms of distribution and stuff like that. Outtakes try to make that really easy. And I think for the most part, you know, they do. It was my It was the first time I've ever submitted anything for a festival. And, um, and I submitted the the out in the square that Joel and I made and then also a short film that I made called fascism. And, um, and one of the short do which was interesting around queer content wasn't enough queer content. That [00:25:30] was cool. Um, but the subject was clear, and so was the the film worker. But but yes, Yeah, but yeah, but, um, but yeah. And so they did try to make it easy. And then all of a sudden, you know, the two of them were accepted and that was really exciting. It was It was a really nice moment to have. And of course, naturally, I come from this, you know, I come from this crazily awesome family, and, um, they all wanted to come. And so, you know, initially I'd gone from being nervous about whether or not they'd get selected [00:26:00] than being selected and then a being nervous because on a certain level, I can't imagine more of a jury of my peers. You know, I've been, um, living in Wellington pretty much all of my adult life, or generally. And, um and I've been in the queer community of Wellington for that whole kind of time. And, um yeah, to kind of be sitting in an audience of the Wellington queer community. Well, something I made was on screen, scared me a little bit. And then on top of that, my whole family wanted to come, [00:26:30] and that was really cool. I was always safe because I I I'm not from Wellington. I kind of come in and out of Wellington. I came out late. I have never been immersed in the queer community here. I don't know very many people at all in the community. Actually, no nerves for me. Wait. The lobby wanting to shake your hand down the red co. The good, the good. But it was really cool. I mean, it was so interesting. Um, the whole experience of it being an outtakes. Um, [00:27:00] and so they were a short programme of four shorts, Um, two of which were the ones that I had submitted and Jules and I had submitted. And then, um, another one was a short, um, with Alison Vida, which was just I was just kind of like, Oh, my God. I'm in the same kind of, you know, screening as Alison Big. That was kind of cool. And, um, and then another one was on Was lesbian, which was a revolution of the lesbian movement, Um, in relation to the women's movement. And, you know, I was going Oh, choice. [00:27:30] My dad's gonna really love that. And I you know, I was feeling a touch on the city about it, and, um, and then my girlfriend was just like it be good for him. He'll get over it, you know, And she was and she was so right. You know, it was I was more nervous about it, then they were just there to support me and, you know, to support the films that I'd made. And that was really cool. It's, you know, it's great to know that my, you know, we've had our moments, definitely, you know, going back and from the time that I've come out and stuff. But it's great to know that my family are pretty much [00:28:00] bombproof now. You know, I think I could rock up to almost anything, and they would. They would support me. And I think that that really helps me in terms of, um, having enough sometimes having enough courage to do the stuff that might be a little bit tricky in terms of wearing my heart on my sleeve about my sexuality or about the kind of content that I want to put out there. I mean, it also has its, um, has other things that I have to overcome, because I do know that my family are probably going to want to watch [00:28:30] anything that I make. But yeah, yeah, it is. It's it's really nice to have that support and and to have it, um, from the, you know, from from the Queer community as well as a result of it was pretty cool. You mentioned film school just before, and I'm just wondering, what was that like going through film school? Uh, I mean, were you both out at the time? What was that like? Fine. It was, um we weren't treated any differently. [00:29:00] We weren't treated, um, in a negative way because of that. Um, I wasn't the only queer person in my crew. Um, yeah, it was just if I kind of put it on the perspective, there were no issues, you know, really? Because I was queer. Yeah, I think film school for me was, um just like a Yeah, Yeah, II. I just felt like it was a, um a magnified kind of little New Zealand [00:29:30] in some ways and that, you know, for the most part, there were no issues and stuff, but there were things for me. Um, that did come up like at the time that I was at film school. Um, everything was so gay. That's so gay that so gay. And you know, my my tolerance for that saying has been pretty tiny ever since it first came out. And sometimes it just gets really boring being the person that has to educate everyone else, you know? But every now and then I, um I get on my high horse about it. And, you know, a lot of my crew were were young guys, and and and I think [00:30:00] that that saying is probably most popular within that sort of demographic, and I kind of, you know, got to a point where I go, right? Guys, here's the deal, you know, and and had essentially said to them, Knock yourself out. But just don't do it when I'm around, because I'm getting really sick of it and, you know, and I was a bit older. I was in my thirties when I was at film school. So I had, you know, 10 years on most of the people that were there, and anyway, so I had this, you know, I had I had one of them come up to me. Most of them just didn't pay any attention. I had one of them come up to me. Um oh, no, It [00:30:30] was while while I was shooting my short film. So my short film, um, had a had a lesbian central character and um, and it's kind of about expectations and stuff, and part of it was that she essentially had to be in a changing room, Um, almost naked or wearing a dress, both of what she wasn't feeling super comfortable about. But she was prepared to kind of go there, and, um and so she's standing there in a dress and, um, you know, the whole kind of cruise in front of her and stuff like that. And, um, one [00:31:00] of the people in my crew was kind of in the background going on about I can't even remember what she was talking about. But you know how gay something was and da da da and just kind of completely running it down and and it meaning shit. And, um, and and one of the one of the young chaps who had been in that original group when I'd gone, you know, kind of right, guys, we need to sort this out. He just leaned over to me really quietly, and he said, Oh, I see what you mean. There basically, she looks a bit like a dickhead at the moment, and I was like, Yes, you know, so on that level. I kind of had some really nice little [00:31:30] moments, but I also, you know, for the same story. Um, I kind of came to loggerheads with the head shooter because he just did not get the perspective. And he kept wanting me to write this other bit into a scene that completely screwed my story, you know? But he didn't understand what it was really about, which was about the kind of expectations that we have of ourselves being bigger than those that other people put on us and how that controls the the things that we do and how comfortable we feel doing those things. And, um, yeah, [00:32:00] he just kind of, you know, I think I had two or three feedback sessions with him about it, and he mentioned the same thing every time until I just kind of went Look, I'm not going to do it. And if it ends up not working, I'll just wear that, you know? But yeah, So it kind of, um but for the most part, everyone was really supportive. And I don't think also, um, as our kind of our graduation film at the end of the year at the end of each year at film school, the crew make two kind of big budgeted grad films that are shot on film and stuff. And the whole crew worked together on these two films. [00:32:30] And, um, one of my scripts was one of the ones produced and and again, you know, um, lesbian central characters. And, um, there didn't seem to be kind of any issue in terms of supporting that or the crew getting on board with the story or, um, any of that sort of stuff or, you know, right right through the whole process. Um, there were a couple of comments that I kind of heard about and stuff, but for the most part, everyone just went I'm going to make this film, you know, which is cool. And I think, um, you know, on that level, film schools progress even more. [00:33:00] Um, in recent times, um, in terms of support and and awareness, I think and and pastoral care and stuff and and for a lot of the time, especially for the young and, um who are going there sometimes they're finding out they're gay while they're at film school, and they're in the middle of this film school is intense, man. You know, it's a really, really it's an awesome experience, but it's pretty full on. But the film industry itself is really full on as well. So I think it's kind of it's quite a nice kind of Yeah. Um, [00:33:30] but yeah. Then, you know, I know in recent times there have been, um, young people who are sort of discovering things about their own sexuality while they're at film school. And I've been really impressed with how that's been handled. Definitely. What about the gender balance in film? Generally in the film school? I mean, is it more boys than girls? I'm guessing it. Does it change the film? If you've got, like, a predominantly male crew or [00:34:00] predominantly female crew, how does that work? Yeah, I think it's really interesting. So in the film industry in general, I think in New Zealand it was 12%. Or am I just making that up? I felt like, you know, roughly 10% of women in film and, um, and most of them in the production office. But yeah, but, um, it's yeah, it's a really interesting thing if you if you're a female in the in the film industry and you're organised and you are able to [00:34:30] kind of speak your mind and stuff like that. The kind of powers that channel you into the production office are huge, like you, like you have to physically go. I'm not, you know, like I quite like production, but I've had to stick my stake in the ground about actually, I could get gobbled up in here, and I've got other things I want to do. And then at film school, I know that they make a really conscious effort to try and have gender balance crews. And I think you know I can. My I was a crew of, um, 24 originally and out of that there were 11 women, which was huge [00:35:00] for film school at the time. Um, I know the first original film school crew had one, um, women and a lot of them, you know, there's the But again, at the moment, I would, I'd say, For the last couple of years, the gender balance at film school has been pretty even. We had 14 in my crew, and I'm just trying to count. There might have been six Yeah, so I mean, it's certainly there's certainly more at film school than there are in the industry. And again, you know what's happening. You know? Is there a disconnect [00:35:30] of what happens when they leave the door? In terms of, It's a tough industry. It's It's a hard industry to be in. And I think, um, that there's lots of, you know, like I can kind of see lots of reasons why people would find it hard, and I don't know whether they're specifically, you know, more geared towards women finding it hard or men finding it hard. But the truth is that there's not as many women in film, but also for a long time. Film was was a boys club, and it has actually only been [00:36:00] in recent times that that shifted on, you know, the same as so many industries. And so maybe in five years time, 10 years time, we'll see a big difference in the amount of women that are in. I hope so in in film. And there's more receptiveness now to, um, stories with female central characters and all that stuff. We still got a long way to go, but, um, I think that that's all, all kind of part of it. You know, there's any number of films that, um are being [00:36:30] made that I don't have a huge interest in being part of because they're not the kinds of stories that I want to tell or the kind of way that they're being made isn't the kind of ways that I want to make film and stuff. And, you know, I've joked with Jules a couple of times. There's some There's some decisions that get made, and I sometimes just rubbish them as being bloody boys with toys. And Jules always rolls her eyes at me. But you know, there are There are things you know. There's a there's a there's quite a specific approach like, you know, hiring equipment that costs 80% of your budget and not feeding your crew [00:37:00] properly. And so you know, those are things that I wouldn't do, and I hate to say it, but almost every time the area that is getting paid is where the boys are, like, yeah, you know. And so on those levels, I can understand whether it's a a kind of attrition rate for women or whether they don't get into it in the first place, or yeah, I can kind of understand some of those frustrations. Yeah. Yeah, Well, there's not too many women around doing what I do. Yeah, [00:37:30] but the flip side of that is, um I mean, there's a couple of things like I haven't actually had any issues in terms of being a woman on set, and part of that is probably because I'm not afraid to speak my mind. And, um, I think that helps. Um, but also, there are some phenomenally supportive women in this industry. And I have been so, um impressed and surprised by the support that I've personally been given by women that are in, you know, quite powerful positions or it's not even about power [00:38:00] who are in positions. Um, where I wouldn't necessarily expect them to be helping someone that's kind of at the bottom of the ladder or whatever. And yet they have this ethic and this desire to, um, to work together to kind of improve and and that Really? Yeah, I've really loved it. And I've been Really, um I've been really honoured to kind of have some of that support at different times it's been really cool, and it's made a big difference. I got some very good support when I first left film school, actually, [00:38:30] And if I stop and think about it, I think where I had doors open for me and I was given a hand out it all came from woman who'd been working in the industry for quite a length of time. They they take a punt and you do a good job, and they'd give you another one and then tell their friend to give you one, too. Yeah, Yeah. And where I've been in other industries where it's the opposite it really You know, there really is that kind of Well, I've clawed my way to the top, So why should I give you you know, and you can, too, And they'll they'll judge you even [00:39:00] harsher, because you are a woman rather than help you out, you know? Yeah. No solidarity. Yeah, but, you know, the interesting thing for me is one of the things that I love about the film industry is that it's just not a place for flakes. You know, if you're you're just not going to last, you know, people you know, like if you don't do what you say you're going to do if you're not reliable, if you don't work hard for every moment that you're kind of working [00:39:30] and stuff like that, you just you won't get reemployed. You're only as good as your last reference, you know, And and so, um yeah, II. I do really like that. And but at the same time, you know, people are given opportunities and it's up to them what they do with them. And some of them might only get one opportunity and terribly, terribly badly. Squander that and that's them done. Yeah, it's a pretty harsh industry, and it's small, too. Obviously, Um, even when we're talking about, you know, the gestation period films. I mean, if you think [00:40:00] you talk about 12 years to do a feature film here, you know we're not even the size of a lot of key cities in the state. So the machine is Somebody might be 12 years working on this project here, but they've got probably seven or eight other things that they're doing at the same time, and and so they're still able to make money out of doing it that way. But we're just so small here, and you can't do it that way. You got to have. Well, I think people still do it that way, like, you know, three or four strings to your bow. You sell your soul over [00:40:30] here to give you that bit over there. But the flip side is working in a studio, and that doesn't You know, that doesn't really appeal to me either. So what about, um, thinking of of finance and poor and wealth? What about collaboration? How does that work in terms of, like, queer film? But you have to collaborate. Filmmaking, period. Yeah. I mean, I think we're really We're really lucky in New Zealand that we have government funding. You know, there's very few places in the world that do, and [00:41:00] it also kind of creates this, um, other problem in terms of people not being creative about the way that they, um, come, you know, because across the world, yes, you know there's Hollywood, But there's probably hundreds of thousands of people trying to operate in that realm, and you know, so they also have the independent market, and, you know, there's there's different places in the world where there's no funding, not a single cent. And yet people still manage to make films and, um and you know, just on my first funding applications and, you know, going around [00:41:30] so far. But it's not. But it's not. Um, it's not something that I think we you know, like I don't think that the say the film Commission should be the final decision makers on whether or not a project goes ahead. And I think if people are only looking to them for funding or for, you know, essentially for permission to make the film, then there's a lot of great films that will never get made. And, you know, and I at the moment we shortlisted for some funding and, you know, fingers crossed, [00:42:00] we get it. But if we don't, we've already got our plan in place. But how we're going to make that, you know, because we're gonna make that film, you know, And it's, um it's kind of that thing, too. If we're not going to back ourselves with the film that we want to make, why would the film commission do it? And if we get lucky enough that they do fund us. It's fantastic. But what are we not going back ourselves? Just because they wouldn't? That's not what it's about. If you you got to back yourself 100%. Which means if you think that somebody over there should give you money to make your film, you've got to be. [00:42:30] I think you have to beat. That's my opinion. I think you have to be prepared to make it yourself regardless, and you just find another way of making that happen and adhere to your principles without compromising yourself too much. And I mean, there's, you know, there's been plenty of films that applied for funding and didn't receive it and have gone on to win, You know, accolades in New Zealand and across the world. And and it's just the thing. There's no if anyone knew what a certainty was with the film, it'd be easy, right? You know, we'd all know whether or not we should make a film and whether or not we should put our money into it. But you just don't know, you know, [00:43:00] and there's so many kind of things that happen along that process of making a film, and I think the film commission, you know, sure that there's areas where they can take more calculated kind of guesses, but ultimately they're doing the same thing anyone else is or we think this is a good idea, but we won't know until the audience sees it. And I think queer film plays on that same same platform for me. You know, it's, um in some ways I kind of think I don't know if I want this on record, but in some ways I kind of think it's an advantage. You know, like I. [00:43:30] I potentially it is right now in New Zealand. It's not even well, yeah, maybe it's about timing, but it's also about, um, I guess the networks that I have or know or, um you know what I can offer people that can help me make my projects happen. And, you know, I've already kind of done that a little bit with some other stuff that I've got going on. I'm not afraid to. You know, the music video that I made was, um, was made for a band that was completely separate to the business that funded it. But it was a business that funded it because there was something in it for [00:44:00] them as well. And essentially, at the end of the day, I get to make an awesome creative project. You know, the band gets a music video, and the company gets something that they've really stoked to stand behind as well. And so I kind of think on on those levels a little bit in terms of funding, and I don't know that, um, queer content necessarily puts me out of contention for any of that sort of stuff. But, um, I guess again, it comes back to that having a strong enough story, a strong enough idea that the people that you go to for funding can see the benefit [00:44:30] in it, you know, see what's going to happen. So, yeah, but and I think crowdsourcing gets used a lot. And I have, um, donated to a few. One of the things that frustrates me is that people sit there and say that there's no, um, you know, they don't get to see que content and da da da da, But yet they never respond to the emails asking for support. You know, they they just want to watch it for free online or, you know, borrow the discs off a mate or whatever. But when the filmmakers really actually need their dollar, when they're making the films, they ignore [00:45:00] those you know, crowdsourcing requests or things like that. And, um and so I guess that's kind of my challenge to people. If you if you actually like watching, you know, stuff that that filmmakers have made and they're making another project, then support the next project. Give them five bucks. You know if if you can afford it or give them more if you can afford more. But it's, you know, people. It's not easy for filmmakers to, um, to ask for money. You know, I don't think I think maybe it is for some, actually. But I think for a lot of filmmakers, um, they understand. [00:45:30] You know, that they need money in order to make their projects and that they need, um the support of a community to do that and whether that community be a queer community or, um, you know, a community of parents or a community, you know, from a certain country, or or whatever it is, um, often you go to your community for support. And so, yeah, I get I. I do. I imagine that I'm going to use crowd funding at some point in the future for projects. And, um, again, it comes back to that thing for me. How can I give [00:46:00] people something that it is hopefully in it for them? And And maybe that's something, Will, it will be the project that I'm making that that will be enough for them to go. Yeah, I want to see that. So I'm happy to put a few bucks up front. You can ask for your networks. So you're not just gonna ask your queer? You just ask for your networks, because basically, the the people that you know in your network are the ones that you'd like to think will support you. But your mind would. Yeah, yeah, but, you know, and it comes back to that whole either Most of mine. Yeah. Yeah. [00:46:30] You still got time? We can chat. I'm a whole different generation. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about, um, queer portrayal. So the characters in the film people can be portrayed in so many different ways. What are your thoughts about using, like stereotypes and the types of language that are used and the explicitness of what's on the screen. Go on, you've got something to say. I've got something to say. Um, [00:47:00] so it's stereotypes are really interesting. Stereotypes can be excellent tools for filmmakers because they give, um, an audience the opportunity to quickly kind of know who someone is or what kind of person someone is. But if that's where you end your representation of a person on screen, then you've just lost it. Basically, you know, like it's stereotypes are a place to start, and then you have to develop and make these people three dimensional and authentic and human and real. And, um, and that's part of the education process, [00:47:30] too, in terms of if you feel that you need to. But you do you want to kind of get take the audience on that journey with their character as well. And if you do leave it just sitting there, nobody's any further ahead. Your film is not. Your story is not in the audience are in terms of getting a better understanding that, in fact stereotype is just a start place, and it's also it's a creation of somebody else. It's not necessarily the way that's gonna come to them from. [00:48:00] It's a different place. If somebody was left to start with a blank page, they mightn't even come up with it in terms of how they would see that person. It's been placed in front of them and they inherited it. So you want to take it that bit further and that doesn't you know, that's not just for stereotypes. It's for stereotypes in general, you know? And I think, you know, like, I'm really acutely aware of that. Some people might look at me and have a stereotype for me, you know? But yet there'll be a million other things [00:48:30] that they don't know about me that are important and part of my life and things that I do and say and all that sort of stuff. And so I kind of go, Yeah, cool stereotypes. They're a great way to something. But yeah, you can't just leave it at that for sure, I might surprise. It's really interesting, though. Like I when I first started writing, I I came about it a different way to most people and that, um, I wrote a feature film before I wrote a short film. I don't ever do that. I don't recommend it. [00:49:00] So So I had to kind of learn how to write while I was also trying to write this speech for film, which was wicked. Anyway, um, so the for the feature film, My central character, my two central characters are lesbian, and I discovered this interesting thing in draught two, which was, um, that I part of part of it was about learning about myself. And I find that constantly as a filmmaker, whether I'm, you know, in terms of writing or directing or, you know, crewing or anything like that [00:49:30] is that I'm constantly challenged about my own kind of world view or the way I think and do things or, um, what it is I kind of want to put out into the world. And so I've written these, um, lesbian characters that were, I wouldn't say perfect, but I was so kind of they were sort of taboo to me, you know, like I could I could push my other characters so much better than I could with these lesbian characters. And so I had to take a step back, and I was really lucky I had, Um the lovely Graham Tiley is my first writing teacher [00:50:00] who is, you know, a phenomenal kind of figure in, um, screenwriting for New Zealand. And, um, he was the one that, you know, he just had this really gorgeous way of kind of leading me down the right track without ever telling me what I needed to do. You know, he'd just kind of have me question what was going on and let me find that out. And, um anyway, so he started kind of questioning what was going on for my main characters, and and I discovered this this thing about myself, which [00:50:30] is that I was so sick of watching stereotypical portrayals of lesbian that I didn't connect with. I didn't understand. I got frustrated with I got angry about sometimes, you know, that that it almost, um, paralysed me into writing my own lesbian characters because I was so scared of repeating, you know, kind of poor representations that I'd seen from other people. It sounds like my coming out my fear. [00:51:00] Yeah, and so and so, like, this stereotypical box that people had in their opinions of it. And it's, you know, it's It's a really hard thing to confront. It's, um and it's, you know, it's not like I, you know, necessarily think that I'm fantastic at it now, but I'm aware of it. And so I try to kind of push that a little bit further. And it's the same with, you know, different kinds of characters. You know? Oh God, are people going to think this character is my dad? Well, if they do what you know what's what's my kind of statement here or what's going on, What do I want them to think? [00:51:30] You know, all that sort of stuff and think, Oh, yeah, he's good, my dad, But yeah, and you know, But then there's there's other things as well. And sometimes you're just too close, you know, like I, um there are stories that I know that I might at some point be able to tell. But I'm I'm not ready to, you know, like that that I'm not ready to kind of, um, expose myself kind of that much. And it is it is quite exposing, [00:52:00] you know. And in any creative realm, I think it's, you know, the same. If you're a musician, or a painter or, you know, at certain points do you go? How much am I going to expose? And sometimes you know, that's around the queer content. But sometimes that's just about being me, you know? And it is, um, one of the things that that I feel like I need to push, you know that I do. I try to push anyway in order to kind of get there, because otherwise you do get left with stereotypes. You get left with these people that are safe. You know, the part of the reasons that [00:52:30] we see so many stereotypes is because they are safe. You know, they're a safe representation. They're an accepted representation of a certain kind of person or a certain kind of moment. They're pretty boring. They're pretty well, I love it when stereotypes like Take three, Have you ever watched Take three. So it's a New Zealand short film by, um, Roseanne Liang. I think it is, yeah, and it's, um, Chinese women stereotypes, and it's funny. So I want to do the queer version of that. That's what I want to do, you [00:53:00] know, because it's just she takes these stereotypes and she moves on from them so nicely. Yeah, that, um yeah, I have watched it a couple of times. It laugh out loud, funny, and I don't do that very often for things, but it's interesting as well. Like there's, um you know, you go through moments of there being more media attention paid to kind of what's happening on screen or not. Like just today there was a report out about how TV is slaying film in terms of queer representation on screen. [00:53:30] And, um, you know, you see what Sitcom doesn't have a queer character these days? Yes, but so this is some of the master, but yeah, they are still there. And so that's the interesting thing. And it's about the times in terms of society. But it's also about the times for the audience, you know? So if you if you're on TV and you know, Will and Grace I always had big issues with will and grace because he was never actually gay, you know, he didn't He wasn't allowed to, [00:54:00] you know, kind of get really hot and heavy with guys or anything like that. And it was prime time viewing, so they never would have been able to get that stuff through their censorship, right? So is it enough that they've got a queer character in prime time or, you know, and on some levels it is. But on other levels, I just got frustrated because I was like, but he's not, actually, you know, like he's safe, queer. He's safe, queer, you know, and we see that a lot. In TV, we see queer characters who are known to be queer, and there's some kind of ways in which they are queer. But they're not actually [00:54:30] sexually intimate with anyone Or, um, you know, even kind of exposed in any way to intimacy as a queer person with another queer person. And I think there are TV programmes that really push that like Shortland Street. You got to give it its due for that, you know? And yeah, there are. There's definitely, um, more now than used to, but I think there is still a real, um, safety net there for a lot of TV and and I understand why it's there. I mean, TV [00:55:00] is only ever about advertising. I hate to say it, you know, like in terms of, um, funding and budgets and stuff like that. It's like, Well, who's going to advertise in amongst this stuff? And so when you start polarising your audience and whether that's with any kind of community that's outside the mainstream, it starts to have to be safe to do that. So, yeah, so we've talked about characters, but I'm wondering that there are other aspects to film making that, um, maybe have a kind of a queer content. So, [00:55:30] like the length of a shot, the way that a scene is shot, can you talk about how you, um, think about those kind of things? I don't think about it from a clear perspective. To be honest, I don't and mine's more about, um, all of those things are about the storytelling and that if you like what you see in the frame is there for a reason. The the way that the camera angle is is for [00:56:00] a reason. But doesn't it change if you're if you've got, like, say, a predominantly queer audience to a mainstream audience, wouldn't that shot change? No. Because if if if your story is for a queer audience, that's what makes the bit queer. Everything else around it is actually either good or bad filmmaking or good or bad decisions around how you're going to shoot it or colour it or, you know, all all the other aspects that go into filmmaking. [00:56:30] I don't think would be, Um, I don't think you'd be constrained or have to have to do it a certain way to make it clear. I mean, because I mean, there's the genre. The genre can drive how you shoot it. It can drive how you do your scenes. Or you could take your basic film making rules that you have for how you do a myriad of things within the whole design of what's in the frame and you can break them because it's clear, [00:57:00] I mean, because to make it different or to make it fractured or whatever. But, um, I don't think you're doing it because it's clear that it has to be that way. You're doing it because it might tell you it might be the que perspective you're wanting to take from your story or what the audience to take from your story. But I don't know if it's, um, I think it would be a bigger rather than if it was me. I think it would be at a bigger level, I guess, than just say, the shot of the angle [00:57:30] of the camera or the dialogue that I mean dialogue. It would be maybe something that's a bit more, but the language that you use might be, but yeah, I, I You've made queer films that that that's not what I'm here to do. Necessarily. So, yeah, I mean, I kind of, um there are times when I'm acutely aware of that. Like, I have just had a moment. I've been [00:58:00] working on this feature film that I've had the opportunity to workshop over a number of months with actors and stuff, and, um, the central character is queer. And there's the sort of main storyline is is a queer storyline. And I have had several moments of, like, the thing that I know in terms of my next draught. I've just gotten to the end of the first draught. The thing that I know that I need to establish before I progress is what is my audience? Am [00:58:30] I writing for a queer audience, or am I writing for a mainstream audience because there are certain things that are coming up, and it's not just dialogue. It's also action and, you know, and it is how I portray that sort of stuff as well. Um, and and in some cases, the dialogue is, uh, you know, there's a There's a line of dialogue that I have between a straight character and sort of between two queer characters. But one of them is very young, and and the older queer character says to him, So are your family then? And, um, you know, referring [00:59:00] to another character. And he's like, No, no, I just I just know him from, you know, da da da because he doesn't get that. And so for a queer audience, there's a number of people that will laugh at that sort of stuff. Um, for a mainstream audience, they didn't get it either, you know, and so it's kind of like if you can get away with one or two little things like that. But actually, overall, you need to be quite clear about who it is that you're pitching this film to because so many incidents and within that will either switch an audience off or, um, [00:59:30] you know, my experience of watching films that I felt like were queer films from a straight perspective lacked that sort of stuff. You know, the interactions and toilets might be different, you know, like I know that that's not That's a very general kind of thing. But you know what I mean? Like it's stereotypical, it's even. It's even things like, um, you know, So you've been to women only events, and all of a sudden people go, I don't have to just queue for the women's side. I'm just going to the guys toilet, you know, it's that sort of stuff. It's, um, which [01:00:00] is certain amounts of it you need, um, you need to give context for a straight audience. And so that was one of the things that was coming up for me with my script is that there was quite a few things that I had to give context for if I was writing this for a mainstream audience or for a queer audience, not so much. And so that happens that it starts to happen at a script level. And then also, when you come into, um, to filming and directing it, casting as well, you know, like for me? One of the important things, um, in my [01:00:30] filmmaking so far and and and I feel like I'm going But I won't really know until it all kind of continues is, um that, you know, I remember when the L word came out and all of a sudden there was this a whole show about lesbians and it was really exciting. And then I was just like, they're not real lesbians, you know? And it's the interesting thing for, um around authenticity in that the actors aren't no the actors, how they their life. Yeah, and I'm not saying that [01:01:00] lesbians like that don't exist anywhere ever. But they're not the kind of lesbians that I know and have known, and, you know, and it's it's great that we're getting this representation and and and one of the things I loved about the award is from a woman's perspective, as much as it's from a queer perspective. And that's freaking awesome. Um, and so all those sorts of things come into, you know, like for me, part of it is about having authenticity of actors as well. And you know, so far I've managed to do that working with non actors, and [01:01:30] I kind of hope that I will be able to continue doing that, working with non actors that that you know, I can find, um, queer people who have the ability to portray these characters on screen, and so that influences the decisions that I make around shooting. You kind of have to work a little bit different with non actors than you do with actors that are really experienced. And so you know, there's a there's a shift there again. And then in terms of, um, camera. Yeah, it does influence, you know. And as much as the the male gaze influences the way I shoot things, you know, it's, um, like when [01:02:00] I had a scene with a character who is changing, um out out of a dress and is essentially naked for for a part of it. I was really aware about wanting to show that she's beautiful, but not wanting to have it from that male gaze perspective of it being something where she's just an object, you know, and that it's not just her body that's gorgeous. In that moment, it's kind of her vulnerability and you know, so it's kind of, um and I think that there's a level of, I guess, a queer gaze [01:02:30] for me on that and in that perspective as well, and that I am aware of the angles that are used on, you know, characters and how this can kind of influence the way they're powerful or not, or vulnerable or not, or all that sort of stuff. And so it's constantly being aware of that in relation to my characters. And and you're right. You know, a lot of that is story choice and, um, you know that story should be should be guiding the film. But I do think that I would shoot the same story slightly differently if I was shooting it for [01:03:00] a mainstream audience or for a queer audience. But we'll see. We'll see. I mean, because one of the things that that I do, um, you know, really want to achieve is to have II. I want to get a short film and a and an A list mainstream festival, and so that will be. But then I also want that short film to travel to the queer festivals throughout the world, so we'll see whether or not we can fill that up. Hey, it's good to have. I'm gonna [01:03:30] watch that closely. I was always going to be really watching it, But you know, it's this that see the creative process for me is the creative process and whether you're making a decision to like the example that you were giving with, um the short, whether you're making the decision to make sure that that wasn't going to be seen from the, you know, the male gays perspective as one thing. But to me, that's actually more about a woman than necessarily queer. And it's more about the creative choices that you subjectively [01:04:00] make as you go through your process as a filmmaker and I. I guess what I'm saying is, it's not. If you want to take the queer perspective and acknowledge that that's who your audience is, that's gonna help drive your creative process. But it doesn't matter what that once you've made what that decision is about the audience over there, everything that you do in your creative process is yeah, that's it's very subjective. It always is. Sure, Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, um, it comes back to that thing that I said, [01:04:30] Right, right at the start, in terms of being a queer filmmaker, I'm a filmmaker. That is made up of a million different parts, and each of those parts influences everything that I do. And there's times where you know, being like you say being a woman has more influence than being queer. There's other times where being queer has more influence than you know, being in my thirties or all that sort of stuff. It's kind of, um, it it all basically rolls into one. But there are moments where it is really acute [01:05:00] for for any of those parts. So, yeah, are there different energies in a screening full of queer people full of women or mainstream audience? Do you find there are different energies going on? Absolutely. Yes, Yeah, I do. I mean, I. I know there's I don't think I've been to, um I've been to two [01:05:30] if I could. The examples that I've seen the most audience participation have invariably been the outtakes that people will stand up and clap just because it was a great, great film. It was a great story, but they're more observant, whereas you wouldn't necessarily get that you When you go and see a great film in the cinema and you don't get the people will go Oh, yeah, that was good. And they're all talking to each other as they walk out. They don't stand up and clap. Um, but then if you're at a screening where, um, most of the audience are the filmmakers [01:06:00] they'll stand up and cheer and they won't go And they're laughing. Oh, there's your name and all this sort of stuff, you know? So that's actually quite a cool experience as well. And you know very much. I love the cast and crew screenings and, you know, rehashing what happened at a specific moment of any No, you didn't see it in the background. That push was a bit crap, but yeah, all that stuff. And I think, um, you know, even within there's so many different things that, you know, change an audience. When I talk [01:06:30] about kind of knowing an audience for something that I make, I still never really know them because and I try really hard to keep it in mind, um, in my process, in terms of being true to myself, because when every single person comes to a movie. They bring every experience that they've had with them to that place. And so, you know, we can all watch the same film and have a really different reaction to it and have a different article, a star, and somebody else will give it a You know, it's just it's so [01:07:00] subjective. And I guess the best that you can hope for is that you're gonna get more than three stars. And so, you know, there's a greater proportion of people will think that it was worth more than three stars than everybody thinking it was one, you know? Yeah. I think I'm, um you know, like, I'm like, the place that I'm at is that I hope that I'm happy with it. And the people that are involved in making with it making it are happy with it and all the other stuff bonus? Yeah, pretty much, you know, like it's, [01:07:30] um it's out in the world. At a certain point, you just kind of have to go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I hope I get to experience that a lot of times and and not be disappointed at what comes back. Actually, Yeah, and you know, I mean, I'm pretty realistic at the moment and that I know I'm still going to stuff stuff up and I'm still gonna want to, but no, I'm certainly aiming not to, but, um, but you know that that you know that there's probably still going to be a reasonable difference [01:08:00] between what's in my head at the start of something to what ends up on screen at the end. And actually, in some ways, that can be awesome. Like I say, one of the things for me about film is that it's collaborative, and there's kind of there's the three stages, the script or the planning. There's the production. And then there's the editing, and film should be evolving at all of those points, you know? And so, um, one of my kind of safety nets is that I don't really want to be the writer, director and editor on stuff, because without having another influence, I'm kind [01:08:30] of limiting it to only being as good as I can be. Whereas I, you know, wanna if there's other people influencing the project at different points or me or both, I actually tried like it wasn't, um I did a little project, but not long after I come out of film school and I very quickly figured out that actually, I don't like the idea of this is being what I do this particular thing that I was working on because I was by myself and I was like, Oh, shit, this is no fun And it's also [01:09:00] it is, even though I had a really strong idea and I pulled it off and that was fine, Um, and because of the nature of what it was, somebody else's point of view or whatever, probably wouldn't have added that much or subtracted that much from it. But it's really clear for me is that I really don't like doing it like that. I would much rather be part of a team and play and grow and develop with somebody else rather than doing it by myself. It's just, yeah, because I've only got my view. And [01:09:30] in my world it might be, you know, the be all and end all but nobody else at the end gives a shit. It needs to be something that takes in other aspects, and it can play that back because the audience is always looking for themselves and what they see up on the screen it they got to see something that they have to be able to see something in them and have it reflected back at them. That's up there that's gonna like drive whether they like or dislike a film. I think, yeah, so it's not even dislike or like it's about having a connection with [01:10:00] it, engaging with it, you know, and and and that's, I guess you know where story is. My favourite films are ones that are, you know, kind of a unique experience, but a but a human experience at the same time, you know that they're, um they're universal. But yet they're grounded so specifically in one moment or place or event or situation or character. And I think it is that thing of, you know, we we go to the movies for different reasons. We make movies for different [01:10:30] reasons, whether it's, you know, for straight out in entertainment, whether it's for education or, you know, because we want to see the world from a different perspective and and and that happens on both sides of the coin, you know, and so it's It's always really interesting to to try and work out that sort of stuff from an audience perspective and especially if we're talking about, you know, how does that govern the way that we shoot? But for me, it comes back to that thing of that I shoot for for myself, I guess first, and hope that all the other [01:11:00] stuff falls into place, you can sit and watch it, watch it, watch it. Anyone else? Yeah, but But you do need the people around you, you know, like, um, I have one of the things that I struggle with so much with writing is that I spend a lot of time in isolation. I'm not real good at that. Um, writing is hard, but, um, but I But I love having written and I love it, you know, kind of taking taking it on from there as well. But it is that thing of even as a writer, I can get my work to a certain level, [01:11:30] but then I need other people. I need other people to give me some feedback and to give me some perspective because there's these things that we do, whether it's writing or you know, other parts of the film. Well, we're layering all this meaning in, and we don't even know that we're doing it because we're just so good at understanding the world around us. And so sometimes, you know, we might find that we've got all this stuff going on, that we were all busy focusing on something that was happening above it. But someone else just walks in, and that's the first thing they see. And that's because that's what they connect with. And that's what you know. They relate to their world, and and so on that level, I think [01:12:00] it's, um the more people that you've kind of got going on, the more chance that you have to elevate something that that has that complexity that you're looking for. Yeah.
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