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Hi, I'm Jonathan Smith. I was born in London back in 1954 and I moved to New Zealand in 1957 with my family when they decided to immigrate to New Zealand. So I'm one of five Children. My mom and dad are now passed away, and I'm the youngest of the family still alive. I had quite an interesting schooling. I. I started my schooling in Auckland at age five. Like, you know, most boys would and didn't like school at all. I didn't, um, didn't [00:00:30] exceed. Uh I didn't find it very comfortable at all. And that was because in my very first two or three years of schooling, I had a teacher who was quite resilient about me using my left hand and kept whacking my left hand and saying, You got to use your right hand. So my schooling didn't start off very well. To the extent that my brother used to have to drag me down the street every morning to go to school and not a good start. We we moved to a just, um in the when I was about seven or eight. And [00:01:00] again, I, I had quite a difficult schooling period again through primary school. And I think that was primarily because of the the bad start I had when I was about five or six. From there I moved to a college college was your typical small, rural college very, very orientated, uh, wasn't orientated in any way whatsoever towards the arts. And at that stage, I don't think I really understood that I was probably slightly different. I don't think I definitely didn't understand that I was gay. [00:01:30] All I did remember was that the school wasn't really working for me and I wasn't working for the school, but I stuck there. I stayed until the seventh form and got UE. However, it was a really difficult time. And, um, the only thing that probably kept me going was the fact that I got very involved in amateur dramatics at the local play theatre. If it wasn't for that, I think my schooling probably would have been even worse than what it was [00:02:00] in saying that. However, at at secondary school I did have a a really good drama teacher who could see that I had certain skills in other areas. So she cast me in the lead role of Andrew on the line. We lead role. Um and that was when I was in the fifth form. So here I am, on stage in a very sports minded rugby and cricket sort of, um, environment. And I'm playing Andrew on the line. Still didn't realise I was a little old gay boy. Um, [00:02:30] again. So I had probably one teacher there who knew that I actually had potential, and that was in the arts. Rather than engineering woodwork or technical drawing, which was the way I was forced to go, I left school in the seventh form and actually applied to go to the theatre school in Wellington and was accepted. However, due to a number of reasons my maturity, lack of funding, lack of confidence, I declined that offer. And I look back now, I just don't believe that Number [00:03:00] one I was accepted because it was exceedingly hard to get into theatre school back then. That was about, you know, 19 sixties, so I said no. And I went and worked for the New Zealand post office, you know? Hello Here I am artistically minded living in working in the post office. However, I. I think what it did for me was just helped me mature a little bit. However, being the youngest, I can always remember my mother and father and my brothers and sisters used to always be talking about London and everything they did in [00:03:30] London. Not from the perspective that they missed it because they realised that moving to New Zealand was actually the best thing they did. But because I heard my brothers and sisters continually talk about London, I felt as though I needed to go back. I needed to really discover what my heritage was about so much to the grief of my mother. At age 19, I upped and moved to London, and that's when things really started to move for me. In what way? In what way? Well, I remember [00:04:00] my second day in London here I am, staying out at um up by the airport, and I caught the underground into Piccadilly Circus. You know, he's this little boy a lot. You know, I wasn't that mature for 19 at that age from on the tube, going to London, going to Piccadilly Circus, and I'm sitting on the train and there's this guy sitting next to me and he's reading Gay Express. In fact, I can't remember what it was called the London Gay Times. I think it was and I was looking over his [00:04:30] shoulder and I was, um, reading it and also looking at the pictures. And, um, I was finding this really intriguing. And I remember I'm 19, and, um and then halfway along the trip, he turned around to me, folded up the paper and said, Here you are. You can take it home and read it if you want. Well, that was shock Horror, I think I got off the station, got off the train at the next station, left the newspaper on the train, jumped off and I sat on that that [00:05:00] platform and I probably sat there for about an hour, thinking, What the hell is this about? And then I started thinking back to when I was much younger, 12 and 13, where, um, I remember going up into the the loft of the house, you know, as as a kid, you do. You climb through the house and under the house, and I came across this bundle of Playboy magazines that my older brother had left up there, you know, away from mum and Dad. So I used to go up there with a torch staring at these Playboy magazines, [00:05:30] and it brought back all these memories of when I was 12 and 13 upstairs in the loft, looking at these magazines and realising I wasn't actually looking at the girls bits. I was looking at the boys bits and what the boys were doing with their bits to the girls. And, um I think here I am sitting at believe it or not, it was Earls Court Underground where most New Zealanders live. Sitting at Earls Court underground jumped off this train, said no to the Gay Times, and [00:06:00] I think the penny dropped and it dropped in a huge way. And I think for the next two or three months, I really started to understand things more and explore a lot more things in London and the London area. I don't think I still understood that I was actually gay at that stage. So prior to that point, were you just asexuals? Did you have any knowledge of homosexuals growing up? I think I was definitely as though maybe I was [00:06:30] bisexual. But I didn't understand that, too, because growing up, you know, I'd play around with the girls down the back of the back of the rugby field or around the back of the cycle cycle sheds. Um, I also had AAA boy who lived next door, who was about three or four years older than me, who, I remember, had an exceedingly large Penis, and he used to ask me to come over and watch him play with it. And, you know, certain things used to come out of it if I used to play with it. And I remember doing that sort of thing and and him sort of wanted to try, try and play around with me. But at the [00:07:00] same time, I was also sort of playing around with girls and and lost my virginity to a girl when I was about 18. So at that stage, I, I don't think I understood it. And and being in a small town like that, you're just not privy to it. But, you know, I look back now and there were so many things that that I realised that really intrigued me. And one of them was, um my drama teacher used to quite often come up to the Mercury Theatre at Auckland. So this is, you know, the 19 sixties and because she [00:07:30] knew most of the people working at the Mercury, we'd quite often, um, go and meet the producer or the director. And one of them lived in the apartments around the back of Saint Kevin's Arcade. And I remember going in there once and her saying to me, Oh, this place is so fluffy. It's just typical of the way he lives, his life raging, Raging Queen. And because I didn't understand that I didn't understand it. But now, when I when I was sitting at Earl's Court station, I'm thinking all these things started to come back to me and I realised, Oh, my God, [00:08:00] that guy must have been gay. That's what she was. Meaning so, No. During that time, I suppose I played around with boys and girls, but I never really understood it or identified with it. So what year did you hit London? It would have been about 1972 73. And what was that like? Um, it was unbelievable. Um, first of all, from the arts perspective, I suppose I went to every single theatre that I could go to. I, [00:08:30] um I I you know, I did Carnaby Street all those things and and went to bangs nightclub and places like that. But I still didn't identify. I still didn't understand I was gay. So for me, it was a a huge eye opener. But it was also more about me finding out my roots. I went back to the house where I was born. I went back to the area where we lived as as Children. So that was more about finding out who I was as a person, or probably in more ways than one. Maybe maybe I went back and found out much more than I thought I was gonna [00:09:00] find out. But I only stayed there for about seven months. And then I moved to back to Hamilton, actually, and went back to work with the New Zealand post office and went back and shared a flat with a really good friend of mine. Um, a female friend who I thought I had feelings for. So even when I came back, um, at age 20 I was still exceedingly confused sexually to the extent I tried to take my life by doing an overdose. Um, but [00:09:30] if I look back now, I wasn't trying to kill myself. It was really, uh I was really screaming and screaming out for help. Um, that helped him come. Although I was sent to see a psychologist. Um, I, I don't think I understood why I was going to see him. I don't think I understood why I tried to take an overdose, whereas now I look back and I totally understand what it was. So I stayed in Hamilton for about two years. Then I thought, No, this is it. I've got to go back to London and for me, because [00:10:00] London was a place that I possibly identified, that I was gay. Although at that stage I didn't understand that I needed to go back to London to really understand this. And that's when on my second trip when I was 21. 21 was when I really started to understand who Jonathan was and what I wanted to do as a career, so that particular that particular year was very, very defining for me in so [00:10:30] many ways. That really defined me it defined my career, and it defined who I was as a person as well. And I think that's when I started to really ground myself. Maybe, maybe, but coming out in London, coming out in London, knowing you're gay at that age, there was a lot of catching up to do. And I tell you what, I had a really good time in London, and I look back now and I think I just don't believe some of the things I did. Unbelievable. Such as? [00:11:00] Well, you know, You you you feel as though maybe you've got to catch up on something so, you know, to put it on a nice term, I was probably a right tart. Um, in fact, I'm being kind. I was an absolute tart. Um, I enjoyed myself. Um, I probably didn't look after myself. Um, naturally back then. At that time, HIV A I DS wasn't around. However, other STD S were condom use was not prevalent. It wasn't it wasn't really pushed. [00:11:30] So, you know, you had to be very, very careful about catching STD S et cetera in England, so I probably didn't take care of myself then. I don't think I understood, um, the importance of my work because I had an exceedingly good job with British Airways. Very good job. And sometimes I used to go out partying so late that I couldn't go to work. That lasted for about two or three months, where I realised that this lifestyle was really having an impact on my work and I had a really, [00:12:00] really good career with British Airways. And if I carried on like that, it would actually ruin my career. So I really scaled it down. I still went out partying a lot. I made the most of all my travel, travel deals and free tickets. So I did a lot of travelling around Europe and into North America, etcetera. So I made up for my partying there and when I was on holiday. But I had to scale it back when I was in London, living in London the couple of years between the first trip to London and and subsequently [00:12:30] coming out and the, um, kind of confusion around the sexuality was that because I mean what was was homosexuality seen as a negative thing? Why? Why were you feeling so kind of caught up in kind of suicidal. The reason why I think I felt so confused and suicidal was that number one in New Zealand. I don't think there are any real role models. Anything to do with with gay or homosexuality was [00:13:00] normally depicted on television in a humorous way, so I couldn't look to that. I didn't actually have anybody to talk to. There was nobody in the family. I had no friends or friends or family. The fact I was living with a woman who I thought I was having a relationship with, there was nobody or nothing that I could actually refer to. Maybe I didn't investigate that, but maybe I didn't investigate it because I I just didn't know how. And of course, going back to Hamilton or going to Hamilton was no different to going [00:13:30] to much the same. You know, Hamilton was a very, very small city. Maybe if I had moved to Auckland it might have been totally different. So I think it had a lot to do with the environment that I was living in and still really, really unsure about my own sexuality and the fact there was just nothing there that I could relate to or or get guidance from. So can you paint more of a picture of what kind of gay life for you was like in the late seventies and early eighties? I think [00:14:00] that the best way to describe this was was the way I really understood the fact that I was was gay and I was actually OK to be gay, and I was very, very privileged and very lucky. The fact that I did get this particular job with with British Airways. When I went back to England, I was employed by Hamley's Toy shop, the biggest toy shop in the world in Regent Street. So this was also very artistic, and I was I was contracted in as a as a demonstrator. [00:14:30] So any new toy that came on the market, I had to demonstrate, you know, I was I was a kid in a in a lolly shop type of thing. So for me as an artistic person, this is brilliant. However, every day I used to walk past the British Airways office in Regent Street and it was massive back then. It was huge, huge, huge office, and I got this desire II I don't know. Maybe it was seeing the guys in uniforms. I don't know, because back then there were those beautiful black double breasted suits with with gold [00:15:00] braiding, and there was something about it that probably appealed. But the whole the whole concept of air travel really fascinated me, flying to England and back twice within that short period, and I was really fascinated by aircraft. I used to go to Heathrow Airport. I didn't used to go to Gatwick because Gatwick Gatwick was a no no. Back then, I used to go to Heathrow and and I was really fascinated and I thought, OK, I need to set a goal And my goal was to work for British Airways. So I rang up and they said, Well, if you don't work for a travel agency, [00:15:30] there's no way no way will ever recruit you. So I then decided to do a correspondence course, and I was the first person in England who never worked in an agency or worked for an agency that did this travel correspondence course. I got about 50% of the way through and I was getting like 99 100% because I really got into this type of work. Then in the Evening Standard, I noticed that British Airways were advertising for reservation staff to work at the central Reservation office in London, and I applied [00:16:00] and believe it or not, I got a job. So I was the first person I ever took in that did not work for an agency. The great thing was that they refund all the correspondence fees for me, which was wonderful. They didn't have to. And I remember at my interview they said to me, Where do you see yourself in two years Time? And I said, working on Regent Street and they said, That's gonna take you at least five or six years I said, That's fine but I'll do it in two, 1.5 years later, I wasn't in street. I was actually in their new [00:16:30] flagship office in Oxford Street office at Selfridges. This was their new flagship. All the new branding, all the new publicity and media was based on this office. So I worked in an office with about 50 people. 80% of us were gay, including the boss. That's the defining moment for me that here. I'm getting emotional, even thinking about it. Working in an office where my boss was gay, my three supervisors were gay and 80% of the other staff were gay. Was [00:17:00] then an the moment for me where I could understand who I was, how to relate to other gay people and really understand about the gay lifestyle in London, because I only ever saw it from a partying perspective, you know, going to a nightclub. But by working with these people from all over England, not just from London, because a lot of them commuted into London, I actually started to see the different side of what the gay community was rather than the gay party scene was. [00:17:30] And as I said, that was a major defining factor for me when I joined British Airways in their office. And so from there from then, I think I actually started to mature as a person. I matured as Jonathan. I knew who I was and what I wanted, even though I think I achieved really well to get into that that particular position within a year and a half, I then had to set my goals even higher to make sure I was a supervisor or even higher than that. So I took on any projects [00:18:00] that I could possibly do, including working Concord, working in the state. So I did a number of things that I'm today. I'm really proud of that. I actually managed to do that at the same time. I was really understanding Jonathan's sexuality as well. Um, and who I was and what I liked, um, with regards to men and what I like sexually and and the fact that I could actually openly talk about this to other people and wasn't ashamed of it. I was able to go back to New Zealand for holidays and actually tell my parents I was gay and tell my brothers and sisters [00:18:30] I was gay. Um, if I'd been living in New Zealand, I don't think I could have done that. I. I really don't think I could have actually told my parents. How did that go? My parents were fine. They acknowledged it. They didn't talk about it. Um, my brothers didn't really, um, accept it. Um, And my sisters, I can't really remember what happened there. It can't have been too bad. Um, but remember I used to come home and I spend two weeks and then fly [00:19:00] out again and stop in New York or somewhere like that on the way back to to London. So, you know, it was a very flying visit to New Zealand to say hi, Mum and Dad. I'm here for a week or so. Then I've got to go back to London. Um, I think I became more and more interested in the arts because of, you know, you've got the West End. I used to attend a lot of things in the West End. Uh, I still used to enjoy myself as a as a single single boy. I had a couple of relationships. One was with a, um a cute Italian guy. [00:19:30] And then I had a lovely relationship with a Greek guy. It's interesting just saying that that all my relationships were were were were with Non-english guys, I think the non the non-english guys with the bongs, the relationships with the European men, I found something really fascinating and exciting about especially Italian men and Spanish men. Um, and even to this day, I still find them quite interesting. So I, I continued growing as a person, growing sexually [00:20:00] and and understanding my gender and understanding who I was. And then I made a major decision to to return to New Zealand. So that was after 10 years of being with British Airways. I returned to Auckland, and this was even after the Greater London Council offered me the apartment that I was living and they offered me the opportunity to purchase the apartment because I was living in a council flat. It's a long story, but I managed to get a council flat, and that was because of my sexuality. [00:20:30] This was during a time when the the mayor of of London, Livingston Ken Livingstone gay. He was very pro, um, housing, um, the the gay and lesbian community. And there were a lot of council flats around London that were very hard to let because of their position. They were in, um um, elephant and castle and places like that where a lot of the families didn't want to live. So he said, right, we're not gonna leave them empty. [00:21:00] So he went to the gay and lesbian community and said, If you can justify why you should get this apartment we'll house you. So I put an application in and I got much to my surprise, a three bedroom apartment in Elephant and Castle. So, of course, all the New Zealanders used to stay. You know what they're like when they go to London, they stay with anybody and everybody. Then I decided I didn't want to live there anymore because it was a very unsafe area. And they were just building these brand new council flats on Black Friday bridge overlooking Saint Saint [00:21:30] Paul's Cathedral. And I put in a really good application. And I got one brand new apartment on the River Thames. I don't mean I don't mean 100 metres back. I mean, on the River Thames. And right next to it now is the modern Tate or the Tate Modern, um, which everybody will know that used to be an old power station. So when I was living in the apartment that was closed down, it was graffiti. There were homeless people living in there, So yes, Just before I left England, I was offered to purchase this flat, and they'd also lend me [00:22:00] the deposit. And I don't believe it. I said, No, I turned it down. So, you know, that's probably my biggest regret in my life is turning that down. Anyway, I came back to Auckland and was just adamant that I was going to get a job in the airlines. Um, but British Airways in Auckland didn't want to touch me. They said they didn't like London trained staff. And I think the reason for that was I think they were scared because we knew so much. So I went and worked for Thomas Cook, which was revolting. Um, hated that. And then I got a job [00:22:30] with the Air Pacific and eventually working with Air New Zealand. And, um, I was there up until about 20 years ago. So how did you get from kind of, uh, working in the airlines to event management? Because that's quite a large jump. Uh, it's a huge jump. II. I work for Air New Zealand. I was an instructor there in New Zealand. I did a lot of travel. I came back. I realised that there was a possibility they were going to close the training school down. So I got a job at a U in charge of all the travel and tourism programmes. [00:23:00] Whilst I was there, my partner of 14 years passed away due to HIV AIDS related illness. Um, I was infected by him So 16 years ago when I was infected, I then decided I needed to do a major career change and I did some Post grad study, one of which was career development through RMIT in Melbourne and graduated and took over control or management of the career centre [00:23:30] at a UT. Whilst I was there and after my partner passed away, I started to offer my services to the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, predominantly the Burnett Centre. Anything I could do, but they were so great to help me during the nine months that my during my the nine months that my partner died leading up to his death. And, um, I said, I need to give something back to you and they said, Look, you've got really good organisation skills. You're really strong. With project management, you've got a really good eye for detail. [00:24:00] Would you like to organise New Zealand's very first AIDS walk? I said yes. So, on a voluntary basis I did that. I did it again the second year I was then asked if I would help coordinate the opening night of Phantom of the Opera the very first time I ever came to New Zealand. So I did that as a fundraiser with Starship Hospital. So that was three large events in a very short period. And I'm starting to think this is interesting. I'm really liking this. So I gave up [00:24:30] my job at the centre and I became self-employed overnight. And, boy, that was scary. I gave up a job that was extremely well paid. Um, and I just decided No, I need a career change. Newly diagnosed. I don't know how many years I've got left the fact that my partner was diagnosed and dead in nine months and I had the same strain, which is quite a heavy strain. I thought I'm going to be the same way. What have I got to lose? So I threw the job in and opened up my own company called [00:25:00] and, um, 16 years later, still doing it. What was your first experience or knowledge of HIV aids? My first experience was when my partner got diagnosed. What year was that? 1994? Yeah, it was actually a really, really horrific diagnosis because we had a group of gay friends. We didn't really understand HIV and AIDS we'd been. I'd been in this relationship [00:25:30] with them for 14 years. So when you're in a relationship like that, you're not always sort of connected with what was going on, and and we kept a fairly sort of quiet life. We sort of kept to ourselves. We didn't really do a lot of gay things in Auckland, so his diagnosis was really traumatic, and it took them a long time to actually diagnose this, whereas a diagnose it. Whereas today if I said to you, this person's got fatigue, lack [00:26:00] of concentration, mouth ulcers and losing weight, I don't think it would take much to work out that that was HIV. So he went through a period of about a month feeling really ill, and it wasn't until he was driving home one night that he actually had an accident in the car due to lack of concentration, and they put him in. They put him into hospital very soon after that and, um did some tests on him and said, Oh, we're going to test for HIV and we need to test you as well. Even though [00:26:30] we were in a so-called monogamous relationship. Um, um, they said we need to test you as well. Well, his diagnosis came back with a quite an advanced reading, which meant that he'd probably been diagnosed. Probably been infected for at least a year. Two years for me. They got a very unclear message. Unclear diagnosis. They said we can't tell at this stage, but the chances are you might you might have just been infected in the last month and you'll probably see a convert if you are going to within the next month. So that was [00:27:00] really our first introduction to it. Which is quite scary. Quite scary that we didn't really know much about it. So you didn't, um like in the in the mid eighties? You you didn't have any experience with friends or I had no friends? No, no, none whatsoever. And coming from England to New Zealand, if I'd still been in England, then I would have seen it quite differently in New Zealand. OK, there were reports I was hearing things on the news, but at that stage [00:27:30] we didn't really see anybody or know anybody at that stage. So for us, it was quite a shock. And and especially for him, as you can imagine. So how did you cope with that? Um how did I cope? I did cope. I think the most important thing for me was the fact that, um, he was very ill when he was diagnosed. Um, he asked the the specialist how long or sorry. He asked the doctor. How long did he have to live? And the doctor said about [00:28:00] nine months and he died nine months, one day later. So my my focus really was Was looking after him. There was no way he wanted to go into a hospice. He didn't want to go into Bay House. He didn't want to go up to the hospital. So we made the decision to bring him home. It wasn't even even with my diagnosis diagnosis, which came two months after his for me. I just put that into a little box and shoved it on my shoulder, and I forgot about it. [00:28:30] But that had a really defining moment on him that he knew that he had infected me. Um, I chose not to ask any questions, I. I chose not to ask him how he got infected. I didn't want to deal with it, I. I knew I wouldn't be able to deal with it in any way whatsoever. But it was obvious to me that, um he hadn't been faithful. He'd been having sex outside the relationship. And I think a lot of that was probably when I was travelling overseas. He had a lot of time at home. Maybe he perceived I was doing things overseas when I wasn't. I don't know, [00:29:00] but I, I look back now, There was a lot of things that were going on that I found a little bit weird, but he put it down to my paranoia. Um, and in fact, I've only just finished doing psychotherapy what, 15 years later to deal with all this paranoia that he actually put on to me because of what he was doing outside the relationship. So for his death, I was fine looking after him. I was fine then after he died, was when it really hit me. Because I then really had to deal with the fact that [00:29:30] he'd been unfaithful. I had to deal with his death I had to deal with the grief of, of nursing him through to his death and I had to deal with the fact that I was actually HIV positive. I had the same strain as him. Therefore did I have nine months to go, so that was tough. That was really, really tough. But I got through it. I got through it from a lot of help. A lot of help. Who who supported you in that time? The New Zealand AIDS Foundation, Burnett Centre was my main support and also my [00:30:00] my friends and my close friends and certain members of my family, because I actually had an agreement with my partner that I was not going to tell anybody. I was positive until after his death. I look back now and I think, Why did I do that? There's a lot of things I could go back and question now, you know, 16 years later, so at the time, why did you do that? I think it was out of respect for him. It really was for him and, um, he needed [00:30:30] he needed a lot of care. He was dying and it was a horrible death and II I He needed to have all the focus on him. And I knew if I told anybody I was positive, they'd ask, How did I get infected? Then all the blame would start being put on him. And I think it would have really, really affected the way possibly friends and family had actually dealt with him. I don't doubt in any way whatsoever that the Burnet Centre would have acted any differently. You know, the seemingly professional how or what he caused that or how he [00:31:00] got infected is not important. But it would have had an impact on our friends for sure. And I didn't want that to to be detrimental to that period when he was dying. So at that time, um, your life expectancy was, what, nine months, or were they? Um I didn't ask that question because I chose not to ask that question because I was slightly different. Slightly different psychology to my previous partner. Maybe he had He had [00:31:30] to ask that question there because there was some guilt attached to it for me. There wasn't, um I just presumed that I had nine months. However, at the same time, I've got a very different mind to my previous partner. I'm a lot stronger. I'm a lot more focused. So I in the back of my mind, I thought, Yes, I've got a short period. But did I really think I had nine months? No, but I knew I had a very short period, and and that was when I started to make some major major changes [00:32:00] in my life. And one of the things I did was the fact that I I failed so terribly at school and school failed me. I felt as though I needed to go out and get a higher qualification. So I, I did my postgraduate and teacher education and and pass that. And then I did a postgraduate and career development through Australia and pass that, and I think that was ready to prove to myself that I could actually do it. I didn't do it because I needed it for my job. I did it just to prove that I could actually do higher academic study [00:32:30] and to go straight into a post grad without doing a to do it without doing a degree. It was a huge move for me, but I did it. So was this at a time when, um, the new drugs were coming in? Uh, was that that's in the mid nineties, isn't it? Yeah, it was. This is about the same, like primarily when Gary was alive. Um, sorry. When Gary was diagnosed, a ZT was the only thing that was available, and and their philosophy was to pump it into people. And like [00:33:00] he, he would be taking 15 to 20 tablets a day. In hindsight, it probably brought on an early death. I don't know, possibly so. And the side effects of it was exceedingly bad. And then, um, I I chose not to go on to any medication, even though my my viral load Um, in fact, no, it wasn't my viral low because I couldn't test that back then. My T four count was was not super low. I just chose not to go on to medications because II I saw [00:33:30] what it did to him. So I had a period of about two years with no meds at all. And then during that two year period was when all the antiretrovirals were actually introduced. So I had options sitting there, but it wasn't plain sounding for me. I. I had a many, many a good fight with pharmac, including one particular fight that I actually told them to get stuff and I moved back to London because I couldn't get the medication that I needed. So I I was very, very lucky. And even today, you know, I'm very lucky that I've I've still got [00:34:00] so many options of antiretrovirals that I can take. He didn't have those options at all at that time. Was there a lot of discrimination or stigmatisation? Back then there was. And even today there is and I think, where I get where I receive the most discrimination against my status from within our community. Even today, I don't I don't get it from outside. [00:34:30] But in saying that, to be fair, when I was diagnosed, I did use my coming out about being HIV positive. I used that at the first AIDS walk for New Zealand, so I knew that I'd get media coverage for that. I knew that it could possibly have a huge impact on me at a UT because I had quite a senior role there. But the, um, the head of a UT approved that I could do it approved. If he knew me, he'd know that I would have done it anyway. But never mind. Um, [00:35:00] so I never got discrimination externally, but internally, um, there's a lot of gay guys that would not talk to me. Um, and even today, I think there's there's still there's still some guys there who are probably dealing with their own diagnosis or maybe have got a a little sort of question mark in their mind that they're positive. And I'm probably just too far too much in their face. So and, you know, let me explain something to you that happened about two years ago. [00:35:30] And this is when um, queen of the whole universe was really at the forefront and was doing exceedingly well. I had a particular member of our community, a very well known member of our community who said, Oh, I think you should start cutting back on some of your, um, media and your exposure because you're sending the wrong message. I said, What do you mean? He said, Well, you're an openly out gay HIV man, and you're sending a message to our community that people grow and develop through HIV positive status. And I thought I don't believe that. [00:36:00] I don't believe that somebody would say that to me. Um, this person didn't understand just how strong I was the fact that I would turn that around and use it, But to be told by somebody in my community, tone it down, you're giving the wrong message that it's OK to be HIV positive and people actually grow and develop because of it. That was pretty damning, but a really good example of where you can get prejudice from within our community. And how did you respond to that by over, exposing myself even more. [00:36:30] Up until then, I'd actually gone fairly quiet, like for about five years. Six years after my diagnosis. I I did a lot of HIV fundraising a hell of a lot about. I think I raised about half a million in about a 5 to 6 year period and I I did so many different events. I became the chairman of the AIDS Foundation, the first HIV positive chairman of the AIDS Foundation, and I was prepared to put my face out there and say I was positive, you know, this is a really strong message. The [00:37:00] chair of the foundation is HIV positive. So II, I really put myself out there for about 7 to 8 years and then in the last four or five years I've just really toned it back. I've gone. I haven't gone underground. I just don't make a big deal out of it anymore. There's a lot of new people out there that are diagnosed who can, who can, who can talk on behalf of anybody or everybody? That's HIV positive. So I didn't feel as though I needed to do it anymore. That drive for doing an amazing [00:37:30] amount of fundraising, Uh, where did that come from? I think the drive to do the fundraising came. There was there was only one thing that really caused me to do that. And that was because of the the huge support of the Burnett Centre New Zealand AIDS Foundation, Burnet Centre gave me and and gave to Gary that I just felt as though I just had to give back and um, there was no doubt in the first two or three years that [00:38:00] was my drive and then after that I then realised. Actually, I'm really good at this, and I'm actually really enjoying this. And in fact, this is a little bit about what I wanted to do. When I first left school, it was about arts and event management, so I was almost going back to what I was wanting to do when I was 19. And here I am, you know, a lot, a lot older, really enjoying and working in an area that was project management and arts arts focused. So I think [00:38:30] that's what then became the driving force for it. And if I look at it today, that's still my driving force. Today is the fact that I'm doing something amazing that's in the arts. But I'm also now being paid for it as well, you know, through my own company. And when you look at a lot of the events that you have done, especially things like the queen of the whole universe, a big part of it seems to be, um, a lot of positive energy, a lot of self esteem and confidence, and getting people out there on stage is that Is that a big thing for the queen of the Universe? I think [00:39:00] that the Queen of the whole universe has has got the There's so many reasons for it, and I think it's become even more clearer now that we're into our into our seventh year, 9th 9th show. That queen of the whole universe is very much about showcasing our community and showcasing our community in a really positive way. And I think back to something like the Hero Parade, which was very, very success successful. And it really did showcase who we were, [00:39:30] even though maybe the general, the straight community sort of mocked sometimes, you know, we still have 253 100,000 people coming to watch it. So for me it's about showcasing our community and presenting it in a really, really positive way. I. I really wanted to show the general community as well that we can work together, that we are a united group of people that that a show [00:40:00] like this can be put on on an annual basis that does illustrate to people the talent, the talent, the raw talent as well that we've actually got within our community and the other. The other major thing for for me, for this show was naturally about is about raising awareness for HIV and AIDS. You know that that's a major thing. OK, it's not in your face, but that's the way I've always operated. You know, we don't need to be standing there pushing this message down people's throat, [00:40:30] but people know why it's there. And we have little subtle things throughout the stage throughout the show that just remind people what this event is about. OK? And yes, we've raised. We've raised a lot of money. We've raised what, just over 100 and $70,000 over a period since 2004 when when I started the show, it was about the need, my need to put on a theatrical show, and again, this is taking me back to when I was 19. This is what I wanted [00:41:00] to do at 19, and here I am, you know. And I am my fifties doing what I wanted to do 30 for 30 years previously, and it was actually about putting on a huge theatrical event and and and getting the chance to do this at Sky City, et cetera, et cetera. But it was one of my real main motivators, but What's what's really happened over the years is the fact that it's now become a platform for taking people from our community. Who wants to who want to give [00:41:30] a have a go at at dancing, Want to have a go at doing drag? Although I don't like to use the word drag for the show, I'll explain it to you later about being with a group of like minded people being with a group of other gay and lesbians, transgender, bisexual, all working for the same goal, the same purpose, which is to put a show on. And what I've seen now is that we we have 18 19 year olds who join the cast. I see 55 65 year olds join the cast. [00:42:00] Some of these people have only just come to terms with being gay. Um, some of them they don't know who to look up to. They don't know how to how to live, how to be gay. And when you get these 18 and 19 and 20 year olds coming into the cast and see a group of people, male and female, all ages, all working together, you see this sort of look on their face Where Oh my God, is this what our community is also about? It's not just about having a drink at a gay bar. [00:42:30] It's not about necessarily going to a sauna. This is actually about being a group of people, all working together for this one cause. And to watch that and to watch their self-confidence and their self esteem grow over a three month period and then to see them on stage and after the show is huge amount of satisfaction for me, no matter how good that show is, how much the audience has enjoyed it. The look on these people's faces on that stage when that curtain goes down, [00:43:00] is where I get my satisfaction. Where did the idea come from? In 2002, I saw a documentary which was based in either Los Angeles or San Francisco. I think it was Los Angeles, and it was called Quest for the Crown, and it was about a group of guys who every year get together the same group of guys who get together and compete for the crown, and this was a fundraiser for HIV A. I DS in in California and they were raising, sort of like [00:43:30] $1 million from the show, huge amounts of money, something we could never, ever, ever copy in New Zealand. And I saw snippets of the show of this documentary, and it was so cleverly filmed, so cleverly filmed that they focused on three or four people and you didn't realise they were the three or four people that went through as the final at the end of the show. And I was sitting there thinking, Oh, I am just so loving this This has just got so many good elements in it. This is [00:44:00] not just about drag. This is a theatrical show. It's a theatrical cast musical, and I'm sitting there and, um, my my partner is on the other side of me, you know, Buffy and Bimbo, both of us together. Sitting behind me was a couple of really well known drag queens, and I turned around to one of them. I said, I'm gonna do this and they said, Are you? I said, Yes, I will do this and they said, We will be in it. You do it, we'll be in it. So I thought, right, [00:44:30] What will work what won't work in a New Zealand market. For example, they do this huge opening extravagance, and they've got about 50 drag queens for a better word. Cast members dressed in drag, and, um, after that opening extravaganza, they're all basically kicked off, disqualified, kicked off and you're left with five people. So you only you only do the opening extravaganza. Then you're gone. And I'm thinking, that's not gonna work. That's not gonna work for our for our market. [00:45:00] If I want to buy people into this, I need to change the show. So I thought, Right, I need to get these contestants on board. I need to keep them till the end of act one. Then I'll get rid of them. Then we'll take most of them through to Act two, maybe a few red hearings. So I spent two years writing this, putting the concept together, thinking about the music, battling with that for around the music, Um, getting sponsorship on board and one of the one of the key things for me when it came [00:45:30] to came to sponsoring the show, and I and I didn't want to put it on stage until I knew I had sponsorship because I did not want to put at that stage the AIDS Foundation at risk because they were going to take the liability because it wasn't coming out of my company at that stage. So I had to be totally risk adverse and I had to be risk averse to the AIDS Foundation. So I had to have the sponsorship and what I'd seen over all these years of doing fundraising was that we were continually going to organisations [00:46:00] for the pink dollar. We were always going to the gay and lesbian run organisations or gay friendly and I thought I can't I. I don't want to do this. I want to go to a different market. I've got to go to the corporate market or to the national companies throughout New Zealand and get the money from them, which I did so that first show There was hardly any pink dollar in that in that show at all, and that and that's been my philosophy for the last seven years. [00:46:30] So when I first presented this concept to the AIDS Foundation, the CEO said no, I don't think this show will produce the money it needs to to produce. And I think the liability is too high and I'd base I based it on the Bruce Mason Centre, in which is a small theatre, because I had contacts there and then, um, this was unbelievable. Six months later, [00:47:00] I have a meeting with the new CEO Rachel and, um, she said, Look, I know you're doing lots of fundraising events blah, blah, blah, blah. So she confirmed World AIDS Day that I was doing street collection I was doing. She said, Have you got anything else on the back burner? I said, Well, actually, I got this little old show called Queen of the Whole Pacific back then, and, um, I'd really like to put it on and she said, Tell me about it and I told her, She said, Can you make it a run? Even I said Yes. She said, Can you guarantee there won't be a loss? I said yes. She said, Do it. [00:47:30] I got home at 12 o'clock at two o'clock. This is at two o'clock. The woman who used to run the Bruce Mason Centre had moved to Sky City Theatre. She rang me and she said, I remember six months ago, you came to me with a show concept. Is it still on? I said, Um, yeah, two hours ago. It's on, she said. Right. Sky City Theatre and Sky City Corporation would like to work with you to put this event on. And we'll sponsor [00:48:00] the venue for you for three nights. And, wow, I don't believe it. So that's how it started. So that was That was at the beginning of 2004 that I got an offer from Sky City. So I went to Sky City. I had the meeting. I had to have the meeting that afternoon. So this all happened on a day signed a contract. And that's basically how Queen of the whole Pacific was born. And one of the problems I had leading up to the event and also getting the sponsorship was [00:48:30] was that there was still a lot of question marks around the validity of hero and and what happened with the demise of hero. And there were a number of events that went belly up. There was the parade that went belly up, and there was a lot of questions about what actually happened. And, you know, the publicity was not good. Whether or not the publicity was right or wrong, I don't know. I wouldn't go there. So when it started to actually look at getting funding for it, I was being questioned all the time about, you know, Is this secure? Is it financially liable? Uh, where will the money be going? [00:49:00] Um, is there a trust account for the money, That type of thing. So I was actually having to deal with a lot of negativity around around the publicity around previous events so that that had caused some problems. Anyway, the event happened, and this was in September 2004. And at that stage, I wasn't involved in M seeing. And I remember the show was ready to go. And I was sitting at the back of the theatre and I was watching people coming in, and there was some predominant people from our community coming in, and all of a sudden [00:49:30] I had this hot flush and thinking, Oh, heaven forbid, I'm going to be really judged, You know? There's hero people here, heroes gone. Um, and I felt really, really nervous. It was a really, really horrific moment for me. but the other thing that I noticed and this was a packed out theatre. We had people queuing to get tickets. They couldn't get in. But what I noticed in the audience was it was predominantly straight. And, [00:50:00] um, even to this day, I still find this really, really fascinating that 65 to 70% of our audience space would be heterosexual. So you've got a pro, predominantly a heterosexual audience. But on stage, it's very, very gay on stage. So and that really hit me. And I'm thinking, Is this sort of like People can't go to the hero parade? So they are now perceiving that this is a This is another avenue that we can come and watch the gay community [00:50:30] on stage, and I've never forgotten that point. I've always held that point, and I've always been sure. I've always been sure that the show keeps a little bit of that camp a little bit of that hero surprise because it's obvious that's what the heterosexual audience want. On the Monday after the show, the show was on a Saturday night on the Monday after the show, my sponsors rang me, never heard, never heard this before rang me and said we loved it. We want to help you out bigger next year and I thought Wow, [00:51:00] I then get a phone call from the edge and they operated their community programmes through the a centre through the A SB Theatre. They said we'd really like this event to be part of our community programmes. Can you come in and talk to me? I'd realised immediately that the show had to grow. It did actually have to leave Sky City, which was really sad because they were the ones that really gave it to me That really got queen of the whole universe off the ground off the ground. So I went to the AAA centre to the edge and [00:51:30] had a meeting with them and yeah, the the following year, 2005, we changed the name to queen of the whole universe because we had to go bigger and we we became part of the community programme uh which was huge, which meant I got a lot of support from the edge which then came under Auckland City Council. So is the show now run as a trust as a collective or is it you as an individual. The the the way the show is is is set up, which [00:52:00] is my company owns the trademark. So QWU was trademarked. I couldn't trademark queen of the whole universe because you can't trademark the word queen worldwide. So QWU the symbol which has become the logo. The brand is definitely registered and it's copyrighted. The show is copyrighted, and I own the IP on it. What I decided to do last year to make sure that we're totally transparent, [00:52:30] which I always have been, was to set up the queen of the whole universe charitable trust. So that trust actually contracts a ment to put that show on. They take the liability, they take the profit and there'll be a lot of people out there who will be thinking, Yeah, if gets paid. The last three years, the has not been paid one single cent. Nor have I. Um, so this is something that my company offers to the trust on a fundraising sponsorship level. And I think the other [00:53:00] thing a lot of people don't understand, in fact, that this didn't really hit me until March of last year, when I was the um, organisation of the month. When I got up and spoke, most people see me and automatically think I'm queen of the whole universe and I'm bimbo from Buffy and Bimbo and that's my life. And it was really interesting when I set up, stood up as the company of the month and said, Jonathan, I'm with the Queen of the whole universe is [00:53:30] 5% of my time the rest of the time. These are all the events that I do in the general community and there was a shocked look on people's faces. My God, he's more than just queen of the whole universe. And he's more than just bimbo or just a bimbo. Um, he's actually got a really, really successful event management company, and I actually got work from that. It was very, very interesting. I got a lot of work from it, So yeah, the trust just they contract us. So the trust is the one who actually takes the liability. [00:54:00] Do you have any thoughts on the whole idea of kind of collective energy to to make something happen, you know, like either as a um, a committee or an individual? If Queen of the whole universe had been done as a collective, it probably would have closed in 2005, 2006. You would have had a lot of people, all with their own thoughts, their own private agendas, trying to lead the show without [00:54:30] a clear direction. The way I run this show, I run it really, really tight. I make all the decisions. I don't ask for people's opinions because if you ask a group, let's put this into context. The show with with cast and crew is about 100 and 30 people on the night. It's huge, huge cast and crew. So what I don't do is I don't ask people for their opinions, and people now understand that, and people are actually OK with it because they understand what directing [00:55:00] is. And I go in there and I direct my biggest support and where I get all my, um, um, judgmental comments. And I say that in a really lovely way. Um is for my partner, Um, and Kevin is also a trustee of the of the queen of the whole universe. Um, trust. He's a person who would actually say no. Yes, no Yes. Have you thought of this? Have you thought of that? And there are a few people in the cast who I actually listen to as well, because I do understand theatre. [00:55:30] So no I, I think if I had, if I had worked in a slightly more democratic way, I don't think this would have lasted. And and I don't want that to sound, um, bigheaded or controlling in any way whatsoever. But, um, I knew that this show was successful. I needed to protect it. And And I think the defining factor here is I had to operate it as a business, and it is operated as a business no different to any other event that I would do for any other client. [00:56:00] However, in saying that the show would not be where it is today if it wasn't for the collective support of the cast and the crew without them, we don't have a show. And I've got people who have been on the show since 2004, and they've not missed one single show. I've got people that come and do one show and leave. Maybe they came. They did it for a particular reason they were fulfilled and they left. Um, I normally know why most people come into the show. I don't discuss that with any [00:56:30] other cast member. Somebody might actually be dealing with their sexuality. They want to work with a group of gay men or gay and lesbians. And they do that because they know it's a safe environment because we do not put up with any nonsense whatsoever. They know it's a safe environment. They come in, they feel good. Then they leave because they think that I think they've discovered who they are and they understand themselves more. I I've got I've had guys come in who are who are cross dresses that normally dress as women in the in the confines [00:57:00] of their bedroom at home with their wife and their wife will say, If you want to go on the show, do it. It's really safe. You're on stage, you're being cast into the role as a woman. I don't mind you doing it. So I've had a number of cross dressers that have come in and done it, and their wives have been sitting in the audience and they've been really excited and proud of their partners. So the show's worked at so many different levels. So but without the cast and the crew and that huge positive attitude and that and their commitment, the show wouldn't be where it is [00:57:30] today. No doubt, no way. A number of times you've mentioned drag and you've kind of screwed up your face a wee bit. Why why is that? What's what's with that word? The word The word drag has been an interesting one, because when I go out for sponsorship for funding and I use the word drag, people just switch off immediately. Um, and I don't know why it Maybe they've had a bad experience. Maybe they think drag is is about going to family [00:58:00] bar and seeing a drag queen perform, which is fine, you know, And I'm I'm not putting drag down, you know? Hello. I'm a drag queen myself. It's about taking it at a very different level, and I don't want people to think, Oh, well, I could go into a nightclub and and buy a drink and see a drag show. What people needed to understand was that this was a theatrical musical show where we cast people in different roles, and some of those people are cast [00:58:30] as women women playing a drag queen. So I needed to get people to understand that the whole the entirety of the show is a theatrical extravaganza. And it's not just based on drag queens. Now, if you look at Act two, which is the most demanding part of the whole show, Act two is three or four or five guys dressed in drag, competing for the crown. Some of them will do a very typical drag [00:59:00] piece. Others will take a very, very artistic, theatrical look at the country they're representing and put something quite different together, which is not drag based. For example, if you look at Miss France, who won last year, her piece is, um, is very comic. It's very bright, but I wouldn't call it draggy at all. I would call it a theatrical piece. If you look at somebody like Owen, who's played Miss Morocco. Um, Miss Oz, there's Barbie Prawn. [00:59:30] Um, again. She comes from the New Zealand School of Ballet, and she was with the ballet company for years. So what he does when I say she when I say he what he does is very, very theatrical. I wouldn't necessarily call it drag. And that's why I need people to understand This show is beyond drag, and I don't say that in a negative way whatsoever. Where do you get your positive energy from? I mean, you you just seem to be this, like, bundle of kind of positive, forward [01:00:00] moving energy that sparkles. Where do I get my positive energy from, Um, when I when I'm talking about Queen of the whole universe, Um, it's easy for me to be positive and and and and and excitable because I I feel so passionate about it and and for me, every every show brings a new challenge for me. I. I have to think of a new design, a new concept, new music, um, new styles so [01:00:30] that that's where my excitement comes from and also to see the pleasure on the audience's face and to see the pleasure on the cast and the crew's face. That that that's for me about achieving at a real high level. But it's me being 19 again. It's me doing what I wanted to do when I was 1920 but in a totally different way. I. I suppose I perceive myself when I was 19 or 20 as being an actor, whereas now I'm at the front being the director plus OK myself [01:01:00] and Kevin, Buffy and Bimbo MC. So there's a lot of acting in there as well. So I I'm really where I was. That's where I wanted to be as a child. It was where I was at 19, and I didn't even know who I was. I didn't know I was gay, and I think that well, you know, here I am 57. Look what I'm doing. And I think a lot of it's got to do with the fact that, you know, this is 16 years since I was diagnosed. I I'm still alive and you know that that's huge for me. [01:01:30] Yeah, that's I I'm a firm believer that I've got to live every week, every month, every year, as if as if it could possibly be my last and, um, I I just try and get as as much as I can out of it and get as much as I can out of people becoming HIV positive. And I don't want this to be sending a wrong message has been a positive thing for me. It's really sorted me out who I am as a person. It's really grounded me. It's really focused me. Um And in no way am I sending [01:02:00] a message to anybody to be infected because please don't. I'd rather not be HIV positive. No way would I do I want to stay positive. But I am, um but it it actually has been very, um, enlightening for me in in many ways.
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