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Hello? Uh, my name is Johnny Givens, and I, um I'm a media person. So therefore, I make television programmes. I train people in the media, and, um, my background as a gay man is I'm Scottish. My papa goes back to Scotland and Ireland, and, um, I went to the great training institutions of of gay people in Britain and Ireland. I went to a boarding school, so therefore I got trained as the [00:00:30] great homosexuals of the British Empire were in public school. I went to school in Dunblane, outside Stirling, as a as an eight year old, nine year old, 10 year old 11 year old. And then my family miraculously decided to move the whole family to New Zealand. And so I had another great gay event, a cruise. We cruised the world on the Oriana and I was 11. I think it was, [00:01:00] you know, but I just loved it. And I've I've been wanting to go on cruises ever since at that age and even at boarding school, I mean, did you know you were gay? No. Yes. Yes, yes. Well, I just had a wonderful time with guys, you know, I just had a really nice time, and I never thought that anything was wrong with it. I thought that's what you did. Well, it was a boarding school, so we just played with each other, and we had We had fun, you know? And that's the sort of thing. And we never thought never thought anything about it. Really? That was just what you did. And because then, um, but I had four sisters, [00:01:30] and so my four sisters were my grounding, if you like. And so my relationship with women were was with my mother and her sisters and my own sisters. Uh, and so I have a a very, um uh uh A real relationship with women rather than a romantic relationship with women. So the fantasy is not there, uh, with it. And so I think my upbringing was it was actually about men. It was about that's where pleasure lay. That's where fun and excitement and, uh, and [00:02:00] interesting things happened. So how long did the boat journey take that? That took, um I think it was six weeks, uh, to get to New Zealand. And then we arrived on the on in Queen Queen's Wharf. I think it was at that stage and the family moved to where my life just became as a kid. Of course there was no, no, no gayness about it at all. Uh, but basically, I went to high school. I went to intermediate school, was a boy soprano, went to high school, and I never thought of myself as gay in those senses at all. [00:02:30] I just, um I had girlfriends. Um, I went to, uh I did played football. I, um I played. I did play the school organ. You know, II. I did do all the singing and the dancing and the theatre and stuff like that, but that was basically because my mother was a ballet teacher. So I've got all the perfect pedigree for a gay man. Yeah. So was there any conflict in your own mind coming from, uh, a boarding school situation where you were playing with guys to suddenly being in a very [00:03:00] kind of bloke? New Zealand town? Um, I. I never, never, never felt the conflict. Um uh, I. I discovered there was some, um there was one of the teachers Who, um who was gay. I believe I found later, Uh, but And I was really close to them. I thought he was a He was a really good guy, but it never occurred to me that it was something different. I thought it was just That was what you did, you know? But we never I never had any sexual relationships with any of the anything like that. And, [00:03:30] um, And when I was living in in, did you feel that? Not really, No, it was just all that's just how it was, you know? And I was having a lovely time filling up, um, the big tits and, you know, just rolling around on brim with carpet and, you know, and and just getting getting blue balls and all that, all that sort of stuff you do as a teenager, I just thought of myself as a normal, normal teenager. It wasn't until I was in my mid twenties, when I really fell in love that I realised I was, uh that that was what I was. [00:04:00] I was a gay guy, you know, and I'd been in love a couple of times before, I never looking back on it. But when I first fell in love with the guy and I was 24 at the time. Uh, that's when I That's when I Oh, fuck, This is This is where I am. How did that happen? Um, it was, um, another actor. And, um, he was I was an actor at the time, and I'd done my university study. And I was, um, being an actor in one of the theatres, and he came up from Wellington. He was an actor in the other theatre, and we met at a party, and [00:04:30] I just thought he was the most attractive thing I'd ever seen. And he looked at me and I looked at him and we and I said, Well, you're coming home with me. I was terribly up front, you know? There's no alternative, and we and so we went home, and funnily enough, one of the girls in the house, I was sure she thought he was coming home with her. I quickly made her clear that that was not the case. Um, and that was and that was I remember going in having him, and, um, [00:05:00] we went to bed that night, and it was just the most wonderful sensation. You know, I, I just got felt really fulfilled, you know? And, um uh, and that started a long, long term relationship. Where do you think that kind of ease about sexuality came from? For a lot of people, there's always, you know, there's kind of conflict and, uh, maybe, maybe not internal, but maybe coming from outside, maybe from their parents, maybe from wider field. Uh uh. I think one of the important ingredients [00:05:30] in my, um, in my, um, background was my theatre work. And so I was working as an actor, and so we were working very close and very intimately with each other. And our training, uh, was very physical and very, very open and very understandable. And there was gay people. There was lesbians. There was straight people. There was old, there was young, you know? And you really had the training, Uh, with Raymond. Hawthorn was to about respect, and it was about, uh, understanding some thing underneath rather than the [00:06:00] than the ephemeral, if you like. It wasn't about the it wasn't about the external. It was about the internal. And so therefore, the appreciation and the way that the six drive worked as an actor was really important as part of the training. Really? And so we actually, that actually was a huge breakthrough for me. What other things did acting give you? Oh, the ability to perform, uh, and the ability to keep a story going and to I suppose, uh, to live [00:06:30] a life, um, and not and just do things rather than complicate things. So it allowed me to actually say, Well, I'm a gay guy, and I'm in love with him, so let's do this. So it became action orientated. And so, um, my my life became quite simple, really. And it also allowed me to live in a community of like minded people. Uh, because the theatre scene in Auckland was incredibly rich and incredibly fulfilling and incredibly, [00:07:00] um, uh, embracing and warm And the people, you know, I still know people from that period who I have a deep affection for What years are we talking about? I was in the seventies. This would be mid seventies when, um we we didn't throw anything off it, Really? At this time of the time, Uh, I remember being with my partner, and, um, and we were coming up from from, uh We've been downtown, I think, or something to eat. And we're going back to the theatre. And it was raining and we [00:07:30] were in K Road on a Thursday night and we were running across and he got to the middle and he turned around and he put his hand out. And I also remember running towards this hand and fun of the hand and holding his hand and running across the other side of the road. You know, laughing. And that was just the the image of the freedom that we felt at that stage. There was never any thought of law. Never thought any thought of, um of retribution. Never, ever any thought of that. Um, [00:08:00] I'm sure there must have been in our mind somewhere, but I, I really can't remember it. How did your how did your family react? Uh, my sisters were really cool, and they always things. And my mother, um, she sort of didn't really didn't. If that's what you want to do, that's you know? Well, you're Johnny and you'll always be Johnny. And she was fabulous. So when when we bought a house, we bought a house in Kingsland. I sold the escort as the fund as the as the Ford Escort got sold so we could buy a house together. And so [00:08:30] we bought a house and what must have been only 75 or 76. And Mum came up And, uh, and we from with Dad and we had a house warming and we had about 50 60 people there planting the garden and all the old school friends. And it was rang one and Johnny's house. And and And every mum did tours of the host showing people Johnny and Johnny and and one is bed. You know, this is their This is their room and that's the guest room. And and and and, um, we just got on with life now. The sixties and seventies in New Zealand [00:09:00] for theatre were were were very, very big, weren't they? Very bright, very bright. They especially in the late sixties after Mercury started. Um, and a lot of the the training and the, um and the coming off, um, coming of Age of New Zealand Theatre happened in the seventies as people didn't feel the need to go to England to be trained as a writer actor before they could work here. And so you've got a New Zealand type of training coming through. And so the people that were trained at [00:09:30] theatre corporate with me, um are the people that I have been the the leaders in the dramatic? Um, change. I've been part of that of, uh, ever since. Did that feed into work for, say, television? Uh, certainly did. Certainly did Yes. Yeah. Uh, but that's not how I got into television. I actually got into television because, um, I was acting, and I did 12 years of just, um, repertory acting. And it was all theatre at that stage. And TV acting was something you never even considered or film you never even considered. [00:10:00] You know, Bruno Lawrence did that, you know, that sort of. And there were. There were Sam. Neil did that, but they were They were different from us as actors as such. Um And so we, um, in the, uh, at one stage, I was working in Christchurch at Court Theatre, and I just missed my man so much. I just went I I've I've I've done this. Thank you. I'm going home. And I just wanted to have a change. I just wanted to, you know, he was in Auckland and I was in. He was in Auckland and I was in Christchurch and I just came home [00:10:30] and said, Right, that's it. I'll find another job. And I went to visit a friend of mine who had done a T VA TV show. And, uh and I'd just been to an employment agency looking for, um, a job. And the only job they could give me was in the miscellaneous pile, which was an auctioneer for Turner and growers, you know, And unfortunately, I just missed that. That was last week, you know? And so I went to visit this friend and and he and and he said, Well, what do you want to do? I said, Well, what do you [00:11:00] do? He says, Well, I'm a TV producer and I went, Oh, can I do that? And he said, Well, you have to work at that one. And I went, Oh, yeah, I'll do it. And so I got a job that week with TV NZ as a script girl, and so I became the script girl. Uh, because I could type. And so I got sent to Wellington and rang when I came down to Wellington and we lived in Wellington for several years. Uh, while I trained as a as a TV, Um, a girl then, Um uh, because of my theatre background, I was given the [00:11:30] opportunity to train as a director and became a drama director and then became and then so I worked in drama and became a drama director in Wellington and then a producer in Wellington. And then they moved me to Auckland. So I became producer in Auckland and director in Auckland. So that's how I got a television. What is a script girl? A script girl, A script girl is that is now called a director's assistant or a producer's assistant. It used to be called the script girl because the script girl used to have to type the script [00:12:00] out on a imperial typewriter. And so they used to get the the copy from the director and their and their job is to do the scripts of the script girl. So I was the last of the script girls, because immediately I got the job because they couldn't call us script girls anymore. They had to call us TPAS, the television producers, assistants. And so I became part of the television Producers Assistants Organisation. And now then the campaign then became P a and then D A. And now they become production managers at that time [00:12:30] in the eighties. Can you recall? I mean, were there any gay characters on television in New Zealand? Uh, very few. Very few, indeed it wasn't. It was, um it was wasn't mentioned at all. If there were, there were these awful characters. Um, like, um, are you being served? Um, which was the comic? Um, queen, uh, was, um, or the gay character got was the one who got killed in the in the second reel or the one who almost almost won [00:13:00] and then got killed. So it was always retribution. That's what I remember of the gay characters in that time. What about things like, uh, Hudson and halls who weren't They weren't openly out, were they? Well, to us, they were I thought it was actually I. I thought everybody knew they were gay. That there was There were just two guys and they were having a wonderful time in the kitchen. And they were gay guys on on and everybody loved them. And that was sort of the English tradition. You know, where they the the Daniel and the people who were [00:13:30] gay personalities. And there's a legend of the comedians and that was just accepted. That's how they were flamboyant characters. They were called and Hudson and halls were like that and they were terrific. And they they were, um they they never actually, um, declared publicly right, But they were just That's how things were. I loved them. I thought they I thought they were so funny. And they were good gay, gay friends. And they were a good model of two guys who worked together and lived together [00:14:00] and and explored the world together and had great parties. So when did you leave TB NZ? I left TV NZ when I was offered a job with TV three. Um uh when they started up, I was offered a job to direct comedy programmes for them and then directed comedy programmes. And then, um so I had to start my own company to do that. And then I worked through, um TV three with the various shows and became part of the Kids Productions and, uh, developed, [00:14:30] um, all their original stable, uh, of programmes with, uh, the one another wonderful gay producer called Rick Simpson, who is one of the archetypes and archetype. He's one of the, uh, Rick Simpson is the, um he's the inspiration for a Children's television in this country. He is just, and he still is today. So your production companies then started moving into things like, um, the hero parade in Auckland. How was that in terms [00:15:00] of, like filming AAA Queer Pageant? It was a fantastic opportunity. It was great. Remember the the first hero parade? I was in Queen Street, watching these people go down on the front of cars and stuff like that, and it was outrageous. And the second one was thrown out of Queen Street and and we it was going down road, and we thought, Well, we've got to go and support that. We got there And there was these hundreds of thousands of people in road and I was standing outside, um, surrendered [00:15:30] Dorothy's with a lady called Bettina Hollings and BERTINA. Hollings was the inspirational programmer for TV three. She's the one that just put the stamp on, and she was She had fantastic ideas, and she turned to me and she says, we have got to do this. You do it. And so I went. Oh, all right, then. So I went and explored it, and we were standing opposite, um, the Armadillo restaurant, which is nice sponge. And I said, Yeah, we'll do it from up there. And I said, We'll get the top ones. Yeah, Yeah, she said yeah. [00:16:00] So next year, we, uh, decided that we could get some money from New Zealand on air. Uh, because it was a special interest group. Our community was being established now then as a special interest group because of legal legal change and all sort of stuff. So we man, we managed to put that together and, uh, with I think, five cameras, I think, with the top twins on the veranda with Lucy Lawless as a guest and and we filmed the parade [00:16:30] and it was wonderful, and we turned it around within the week. I think it was at that stage, uh, with to an OB truck and it went to air, and it was one just wonderful. And so that that was the first one, to film. That sort of event had never been done before. And it was fabulous. Yeah, it was like, what, You know, just a wonderful show. It was a great show. It was entertaining. It was a political. It was, uh, a protest. [00:17:00] It was, uh we took the street, and I just wanted to capture that for TV. And so, of course, when I went to air, people around the country saw what affected this this wonderful evening had on the people that were there because we did a lot of crowd stuff as well as as well as, um the floats and so on. And so it was It was entertainment, and it was just great. So what were some of the issues In terms of, uh, the content. So, um, in terms of things like kind of nudity and language, [00:17:30] did you have any guidelines from TV Three as to what you can and can't show? Never. Never did it. If it was good in the streets, the police had allowed it to happen. Um, we could film it. Uh, they never said, Oh, you can't have any deaths or you can't have any of us it's not. It's not like some of the old traditional broadcasters. They were wanting something really interesting and, um, they got it. And when it came down to it, it was, You know, these these parades, people don't really do that That day they were It was just to be out there and to be proud to [00:18:00] get out and be proud to stand up and say, I'm gay and these are my friends because it was all about gays and friends and people being heroes and people supporting the people with HIV. Are there many productions like that where it's actually just down to a programmer, saying, Oh, let's do that and and you go away and do it? Or do you often have to kind of, like, pitch an idea or Oh, most of the time, most of the time you pitch the idea, you get the idea for it and you pitch it, and so every season [00:18:30] has to be pitched new. What's the changes? Um, what's the standards for it? How it's gonna work? Um, not what your personnel are going to do nowadays. It's far more codified and really, really just the inspirational period uh, when things are starting up, we may find the same thing with Channel four. We may find the same thing in the in the future with with Internet channels where people will just be inspired just to do something and and just do it, um, and give the creative people a bit of freedom to do it. Um, I, I think [00:19:00] a lot of the network control now, um, is what are we delivering and how are we delivering it? And that, uh, proscription method of production. Um, it tends to limit the inspiration and the joy of the productions. So when we started doing, um, looking at Queer Nation, for example, um, we had I had already done a few, um, short seasons on the, um V two type channel in, uh, in Auckland. And so, um, I was [00:19:30] asked to take it on with from with, um, Netty and Libby and, uh, Andrew. And so they were gonna do it. And I was the executive producer, and I gave them. And so I gave the infrastructure for it and to the production company, which would allow the relationship with the network to be developed and how that would happen with TV NZ and it was very supportive from the network's point of view. Um, they they we had to do the proposals [00:20:00] of what we're gonna do, how we're gonna do it. Um, what support we had, um, the the formality of it had to be done because we were asking for an awful lot of money at that stage just to do 20 episodes. Um, and that's the That's how the first thing happened for each episode. How much would it cost? Roughly, Roughly. It was. I think the first one was around about 20,000 or 24,000 per episode, whereas the normal programmes would be made for 100 and 15. [00:20:30] You know, they were much, much bigger than that. And so this was a really cheap programme for the network. Why was that? Uh, basically, it was a minority programme and therefore it was fast turn around. Therefore, we got it in there. It could be done for that price. And we did it because that's the way we could get it. Because we knew we could get round about that price, uh, for the programme, you're saying that the network is supportive. But when you look at some of the broadcast time spots that are aport to say, like, um, queer programming, they they seem [00:21:00] like 11 o'clock on a Thursday night or or what have you? Was there any kind of conflict in terms of where the huge, huge one of our big problems was not content? It was time, time, time The time was going to air. And you have to remember in those days you just went to air once and that was it. And if they gave you a repeat, it was in the middle of the night. So you might get a night repeat. So twice a week it goes out. And once at, uh, 11 o'clock, our most successful [00:21:30] time slot in Auckland was with the local community station triangle and they put it on at nine o'clock. And, of course, a lot of the Auckland people watched it at nine o'clock and it was terrific. It was terrific. Um, we had right up to the director general when Ian Fraser was the director general was requests to move it into prime time. We would have not prime time. We would have. We were we were suggesting it going to the 10 o'clock slot and 10 o'clock would have made the made the transition [00:22:00] into a wider audience rather than a specialised audience. Um, and what we were finding in our ratings, even at the 11 o'clock slot, was that we had incredibly wide range of audience watching right throughout the country. Like it wasn't just, um, urban. It wasn't just a gay population or a male population or a identified urban population. It was generally right throughout the country, and it was mixed. [00:22:30] So was there any, um, thought in terms of having a queer show on a mainstream channel? Was there any thought in terms of, uh, not doctoring but altering content to to get to a widest possible audience? I'm thinking in terms of you know what content you have and how you say that with the kind of language that you use. Um, it's an issue that we discussed Lots. Um, but we came down to our the I. I was the executive producer. [00:23:00] The day to day running was Andrew Netty basically, and and Libby and the the team that ran it. And we made a point of the gay programme was a gay programme made for gay people by gay people and how they express themselves was how we talk that we decided that it wasn't our place to make a gay programme explaining gay to a straight audience If a straight audience went to come and watch it and see This is how this is our This is our programme. [00:23:30] This is what we do. This is our our issues. This is what we deal with. This is how we're the things are happening. This is what our our art artists are doing. This is what our our social life is like. This is what our our leaders are like, you know, in our community that's what made it real true and accurate and therefore we therefore it was pungent and it worked. And we found that if we tried to change it so that it was actually Oh, let me explain. Let me explain a blowjob to the straight community. They go, you go [00:24:00] now what's the point? You know, and it just went silly. So how did the queer community respond? Uh, we got we got the amazing support. Um, every year we had to do a reapplication for the money for the funding for the next year. And we, um especially netty was excellent at this, and she'd just contact people around the community and say, What is it? What's the programme meant to you this year? Could you send us a letter of support and thanks? And the letters of support were fantastic. Um, it was really good. Uh, so that's [00:24:30] the first part of it. Always supportive. But my God, our community's bitchy. Oh, heavens. You know, take a take a group of queer people like God, the tongues get sharpened. We were terrible. We did this and we did that. It was just that a special meetings, we were We were ripped apart, you know? But when it came down to it, when it went away, people went, Oh, but we really like that It, you know, so to speak. And so the the the the it meant something to [00:25:00] the community. And it meant people wanted it to be right. They want then the huge arguments that went over it, and that's because it was important. But people, people just thought it was just so terrible. So how does that kind of feedback affect you. Oh, look, it was, uh uh, That's part of broadcasting, you know, reactions of people to do things. We make the programmes. You know, we try to be as as as empathetic we try to work with. We're working with other people. We're not elitist as such. We're we're telling people stories, [00:25:30] and some stories are are upsetting. And some stories had to come out. You know, that upset people and others were just great fun. Um, And each year there was a different sort of feel, you know, we got we got told that we were one year, We were far too party, you know? And it turned out it was the titles because the titles we made new titles every year. And because one of the titles, um, had a mirror ball in it. So everybody thought that that we we were just doing the party scene. You see what I mean? So So everybody interpreted [00:26:00] that the whole thing was party and we went back and looked at it and went No, we're not doing that. But but the perception of it was, can you recall the most controversial topic you've covered most? controversial subject going into the detail. Kind of. We had a ban on photography When, um, there was somebody peeing into somebody's mouth. We had that, um we had that as a as an issue at one stage, and it was a public, publicly exposed [00:26:30] photograph in an exhibition, and we had filmed it and we put it on air, and there was that was that that that contravened the standard of some sort. You know, similarly, the it wasn't the peeing itself. I think it was the mouth or something like that. You know, it was it was one of these sort of standards, and we always did that as far as controversy. Um, goes, uh, we had controversy all the time. Um, issues. Um, uh uh, the hero issues about what was happening with hero and things. [00:27:00] Um, the, um the right wing, um uh uh, that we did a marvellous series on the launch of the right wing opposition to gay, uh, community, um, through one of the big through the American, um, church corporations standing up here. And, um, a wonderful reporter, uh, just followed that relentlessly. And it was It was a He was like he was. He was like a terrier. He got this issue and he just [00:27:30] worked with it. And until it became very clear that it was that it became publicly known that this was, what, this, this this this church group, uh, research foundation were actually putting out, um, a pro anti gay propaganda which basically was hate the the the hate legislation that we got changed. So it was effective. The the the the the The programme was effective in getting information out to our community and getting feedback to the political system to make things change. [00:28:00] And so and we kept going right through the civil union, um, debate all right through that period. And one of the big arguments was keeping the programme on air at that stage was that we needed to know what was going on, and the network programme has kept us doing at that stage through that time of the nineties and early two thousands, there wasn't a huge amount of kind of queer programming on television, and I'm just wondering, with your shows Did [00:28:30] that invite more, um, broadcast complaints from, say, kind of right wing groups or or or religious groups Did you feel that you were being targeted? Uh, yeah. And originally, we were originally when the first programmes that netty Andrew and, um uh, made, um They were banned and and banned. And Nelson, uh, you know, they weren't allowed to broadcast all that sort of stuff. Uh, but once the programme went on to air and became part of the national psyche, Um, sure, people targeted it. [00:29:00] Um, but we just kept on going. That was our job. We just kept on going, Um, so I never I. I didn't feel it became a magnet for right wing criticism. It became Queer Nation. And when we did a research on it, the name Queer Nation had a 99% recognition rate in the general. You know, when they do those surveys, um, as the queer programme. And so that's what the queer programme was, and that's where people went to watch it. And that's where people got their information about [00:29:30] what was happening and how to come out and where you came out, what other people and support for people. So that was our sort of basic thing. How do you feel about being a pioneer in terms of queer TV in New Zealand. Hm? How do I feel about being a pioneer? I never thought of it in those ways. It was just That's what we did. And that was what my school was doing at the time. And, um, I was successful. [00:30:00] And so I'm I really feel rewarded for the effort that the whole team of people put in, Uh, and the where we went to with it, uh, with some really talented, um, production people both on the camera and the sound and the writing and the and and the, um, and the research side of it and the people that that came and joined the team each year. And that changed each year. We got different perspectives on it and to actually be the the executive producer. So to make that happen is a rich reward, [00:30:30] a really rich reward. And I feel like that's a major thing I've been able to help with. Why did it end? Why and change of network change of network executives change of priorities. Um, change of climate within the broadcasting industry and the community. Um, and there was, um, a person who took over, um working at TV NZ who, um, just destroyed um, the communication between [00:31:00] us and the community and, um treated people really badly. And people felt, um, assaulted. Um, by, um, What the network was doing and, um, they, um uh and it was it was a terrible time. It was a terrible time. And so people, um, felt unsure about whether they want to work in it and whether they had the community support. And it just and there was some, um, there was there was just It was a terrible time. And there was a bit of, um uh, in that time, there was [00:31:30] a bit of a disorientation in the community as well. About what are we gonna do? Why are we doing this? And T and TV NZ decided that they wanted to cover programme. Uh, that was different because creation has been there for a while, so they want something different. So they went and find things that were different. And the other different programmes, uh, supplied some difference. Uh, but it didn't satisfy you. It didn't give something that the that, um I think the community really wanted and so gradually over a couple of years, it [00:32:00] just disappeared. So is there, uh, for want of a better word, a quota in terms of like queer broadcasting on New Zealand television that you can only have one queer show on at any one time? Well, not really. Um uh, the, uh, New Zealand and they would never look at it like that. Um, but the money was allocated to queer programming as the money would be allocated, um, in their in their minds, if you like special interest programmes. Uh, where the Pacifica with the Pacific Island one [00:32:30] Uh, the Asian programme. Uh, the, um the Christian Programme, Queer Programme. And you know, there was a number of them bundled into that sort of money that was allocated, so it wasn't a quota. It was just like it was that that's the money there. And so when even when Queer Nation went when, um, that we decided to try something else, the money was still sort of there for us to use, but because the network wouldn't support it, they ended up with, um small programmes, different sort of [00:33:00] programmes. And I think I think we went through about four different styles. They couldn't make up the moment what they wanted. And one of the problems was that they wanted to, um, reach the straight audience. They didn't want the that that was one of the main the oh, we get we can get them wider audience. And so then it was, as you can imagine, we were very confused. So at the time in the mid two thousands, there was no kind of, um, idea that you could use that broadcasting money to, say broadcast on the internet or [00:33:30] that that wasn't a possibility for you. No, not for the broadcasting on the Internet was, um uh was just too complicated and the convergence hadn't happened. What we had done in the Queer Nation series, uh, was develop websites where the Web, Queer Nation website and we had a marvellous website person. And so we employed them as an extra if you like in the team and they started interactive websites and so people would call would would enter their information, they could find all the [00:34:00] programmes. We we find ways of doing the programme and letting them share the programme off through the through the website. And then we discovered that if we were going to put it up there for them to watch, we'd have to pay this much for it. And so we went to New Zealand on air and TV NZ and said, Well, if we're gonna do that, um, we'd like to get $25,000 a year just to do that side of it. Oh, no, we can't. We can't. Um, the New Zealand on air weren't allowed to give us money for the net. [00:34:30] And so we had to get rid of our net because I couldn't. We couldn't afford to do it as well as keep the programme going with the rising costs and everything like that. So one of the saddest times of Queer Nation was when the year we had to stop doing do, having a focus on the on the Internet. And so the Queer Nation website just sort of stopped developing. And it's interesting now, in hindsight, that could have been again seen as pioneering because, you know, five years later, absolutely but and it was all there, it was all there ready to go. And we kept [00:35:00] a a server in the office that could have been plugged in at any time. That was because we had really talented people were there was a great team. It was a wonderful team, and that's the pioneer side of it. And it was just It was It was great and people were calling up and and the interchange of letters was happening and people were getting emails and people were were, um, getting information. And we were putting on on extra information for stories. All the stuff that's happening now, but we just thought that would be really good for us to do. Was Queer Nation ever seen outside [00:35:30] of New Zealand? Uh, yes, it was, um uh, we went to we took it to can, um M com at can, um uh as a minority programme. And, um tried to sell it to gay broadcasting because it was just gay broadcasting. And there was a wonderful channel happening in London. And there was a love channel happening in Canada and Toronto. And so we met up with, um, with those on that trip, and we sold it to them. And just before we [00:36:00] signed the contract, you might remember in that period they had a meltdown with the, uh, football rights and all these people had to suddenly pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for football rights. And so all the money that was going to go into the queer programme in these people's digital platforms disappeared. So we ended up selling it in a in a format to, um, a Canadian channel. Um uh, and we repackaged [00:36:30] the Queer Nation stories into two programmes. One was called the G spot. Um uh, which was male gay. It was the gay everything to do with G. And it was all the gay stories and the one and the And I think the woman one that all the lesbian stories went into she spot. I think it was she I think she got it was something like that. It was 22 different. We we repackaged it for [00:37:00] international sale, and they bought it and played it for a number of years, and they just re recycled it. But again, they went through recycling as well. Re recycling, restructuring. Um and and it's turned. Now it's, um it's turned into a different type of a different world. But we we did get it seen there. Yes. What do you think? Your biggest lessons learned from doing something like Queer Nation with, um, nothing works better than personal commitment to things. [00:37:30] There's something that comes from inside you. Communication comes from inside you. And therefore so my lesson that I was a gay man, I was making a gay programme and therefore it was good to do and it was awarding to do, and I had all sorts of problems with it, but that's what we did. Uh, so passion, passion and commitment is what makes good broadcasting. What about the future of queer broadcasting? Uh, immense future, Immense future for it. Um, because we can [00:38:00] we tell great stories. You know, um, communication media is about storytelling. And if we have good storytellers telling good stories, we've now got the devices to get them to people. We've got the means of communication, whereas the the means of communication was a monopoly held by very few people. Uh, in this country to get to people, you went through TV NZ or TV three. That's how you got to them, you know, [00:38:30] And you might have wanted to get to them through sky, um, or the international platforms. But that was we never considered in when in the in the in the two thousands. We never considered that as a platform for us. Now with the Internet, uh, with my, um, with Internet channels, uh, with the ability to deliver specifically to specific audiences, the days of broadcasting are numbered. The [00:39:00] days of narrow casting is the future. So narrow casting doesn't mean that it's necessarily a smaller audience. But it's an audience that is worldwide and can be reached. And so our stories in New Zealand, if they're accurate, if they're clear and if they're passionate, are very relevant to an audience around the world. That's where I see the future of us. It must be an amazing journey for you to [00:39:30] have been in broadcasting over this period where you know, when you think like, back in the eighties, where it was a monopoly in terms of BC NZ who had radio TV Symphony Orchestra and now we it's so diverse. Ah, yeah, sure. What a wonderful, wonderful time to be here, you know, and you sort of go Whoa! Well, how come we didn't know, but that that was gonna happen? Um, the interesting thing about it is that there's diversity there, but there's a sort of a there's sort of a dumbing down of it as well as the commercial [00:40:00] side of it goes for more and more money out of it, more and more audiences and goes for lower common denominator and doesn't want to offend, doesn't want, doesn't want. That's not offending because some channels do want to offend. Um, but it's about it seems to be, um, the the lack of content. It seems to be driven by different things, and so there's immense opportunities, but they're not being fulfilled because the commercialization of of the industry is [00:40:30] leading to an undermining of content. So people are not expressing themselves. They're in sound bites or the or the that doesn't doesn't fit the format or it's they want real people doing real things. Um, in a in a false situation like reality TV Um, which is the is a good doer. There's nothing like a good do you know who needs to put people on an island to do that? We've got a country called New Zealand. It is survivor, you know, there's the do [00:41:00] at the same time as Queer Nation. You were also involved with the Gay Auckland Business Association and you became president? Yes, I did. After Queer Nation finished. Uh, because as a media person, I just felt uncomfortable being involved in a in A in A group. Um uh, when we were trying to cover things, Uh, although I was very supportive of gay Auckland business, Uh, and that started way back in, um, homosexual law reform. And it became a a, um, a vehicle [00:41:30] for, um uh, and for men and women in the professions to have, um, a spokesman spokes and I and, um, an ability to, um, speak without being, um uh without being chastised. Um, and it was very successful in that period. Um, and it was very successful for homosexual law reform. Uh, gaba then developed into into really good good in networking opportunities, and I and so I got involved [00:42:00] with it at that stage and became the president. And, um, did a lot of the stuff we were doing in in Queer Nation. And and we still did it in the with the organisation like, for example, doing the Queer of the Year and just having awards and so giving Helen Clark a queer of the year award, and so she'd come and meet the community, and so she'd meet us at dinner and have a good, um have meet us and talk to us and and ex Express things. And so we, um we did, um, things with the council [00:42:30] elections and getting the gay, um, voice out into the community and getting our voice articulated and doing fun events. You know, let's just get together and have a bit of bit of a party, and that's what we like that that's good fun. And so that's what. And so it was a very inclusive organisation. That's what I liked about it, because it was business. It was professional. It was people who worked as teachers as well as, um, as in the commercial [00:43:00] industry, it was law people as well as people who did gardening. You know, Um uh, men and women. And it was a really good group of people, uh, of a variety of ages. Tended to be a bit maturer than what was happening at the clubs. Um, but that's not to say that all the Gabba members were not down at the clubs as well. So in all the things that you've done in terms of, like theatre TV, uh, things like Gara as well. What's been the highlight for you? [00:43:30] One of the highlights for me was the gay games in Sydney, Um, that where we knew the gay games in Sydney were happening. It was the first time a great international event of that magnitude had come to here, and we were determined to actually make it a broadcasting event. So we lobbied TV NZ and lobbied Australia and lobbied other broadcasters and put together a team just like they do for the Olympics and just the and for the international, um, [00:44:00] games and came up with an idea of doing the gay games for New Zealand. And it went through all sorts of ups and downs and changes and things. But we finally went, took our Queer Nation and went to Sydney, and we went out every day and made stories just the same as we had done for Queer Nation. Going out and filming came back to a base in Sydney, edited it, and I got on a plane with the tape, came back to New Zealand, and then we rushed up and gave it to the network, [00:44:30] and they played it. And there was, um and we played it within the week. So people here were watching what was happening in Sydney that week, and so we did the specials, and I remember being Andrew in Oxford Street and and going This is what we this is. What we've always wanted to do is to go somewhere with our people and tell their stories in the gay world. And we were meeting wonderful people and telling wonderful stories and that I think we made two big [00:45:00] one hour long specials and they there and people, they repeated them because people just had to see them. And that was one of the highlights of my, um, gay TV world. So are there issues within the queer community now that, um, a big Has everything been resolved or what? What are the issues for you, I guess. Well, I suppose the issue for me at the moment is maturity and being growing growing into a community. And I was 60 on January the 10th, [00:45:30] and so that was a big surprise to me, you know, because 60 was always the old people, uh, going and so therefore, I never and I don't feel like like I sort of think I should feel when I was 60 you know, as a mature, retiring member of the community and going gracefully into the, um into the into the future. Uh, and so I think there's a big issue on ageing in our community. Um, we have gone. The people who are are now into the [00:46:00] the baby boomers who are now into the, uh into the mature years in their life have suffered enormously. Um, we are the generation that lost our friends. We are the people who suffered through the HIV and AIDS epidemics and that we have lost a whole generation of leaders the people that we would have followed, you know, there were people that were older than us who died [00:46:30] prematurely. So just like the east coast lost a whole generation of Maori leaders in World War two with the Maori battalion and and the World War One World War Two. they they lost a whole lot of generation and therefore they're handicapped. And so, for the ageing generation of of our community is is missing this group of people that so therefore we've got to find another way of doing it. And so, um, I think the the maturing and the way we look after our, uh, senior, [00:47:00] um, community members is going to be one of the issues over the next few years of how our community defines itself in this country. Um, uh, it's all very well to be young, fit and beautiful and having a lovely time and and falling in love with this stuff. Um, but we want to know that we can do this through our lives. It's not just a passing phase. And so the I think the maturing of the community and how we deal with, um, people going into retirement, what sort of life we're going [00:47:30] to have as, um, as senior senior members of our community, is something that I'm facing. And I know other people are, um, are interested in it, too. We don't want to get the situation of, um, gay men and women around the country, um, going into retirement homes and having to go into the closet, for example. You know, uh, or become outrageous. Um uh, which was the other way of doing it in the past, so this series is all about, um, people making a difference to their communities in a in a variety of different ways. And I [00:48:00] guess I'm wondering, would you have any advice for somebody sitting there thinking, Oh, you know what? What can I do? How how can I make a difference? Where do I start? What do I do? Um, how do I get involved? What? Do you have any thoughts on that? I suppose you start. You start with one, you start with one. Making a difference is about one conversation with one person, and it's true conversation. And then you have one with one. Like Queer Nation started with a conversation [00:48:30] between Andrew Whiteside and myself in a coffee bar on road. And he was going, Oh, we don't know. You know what? What do you think we could do? And I said, Well, what you could do is this. And so then they came back, and the next time Libby and Netty and I and Andrew got together and that was that was the small group. Then the next time we got together with other people, and then we and we gradually got the network involved, you know. So we gradually built it from just one conversation started as the best advice. Feel a passion and [00:49:00] start it. If you've got an idea for a story, you start it by writing it down, you know? Then you got something to talk to somebody about. Then you've got something to how How can we take this to the next step? And so you take it one bit at a time and therefore the passion becomes the driver, The identity, the who you are. If it's not you, if it doesn't feel like you, it won't work. You've got to be you to do it.
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