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Well, my name is John Jake. I was born in Wellington, New Zealand. Um, my family were always based in the southern suburbs of, um, Wellington, so I lived in Newtown in my early years. In fact, my, uh, first home there is a tiny boy was in Constable Street, Newtown. My father had a watchmaker and jewellery business there. My mother had been raised in, so we had strong, um, familial ties and extended family [00:00:30] ties to South Wellington. Yeah. And what year were you born? 1947. So this year? 70 years old. Yeah. So can you recall what it was like just coming out of World War two? Do you have any early memories of that? Yes, I can, because I went to Newtown school. Um, we had, um quite a few Greek refugee kids, Um, who had, um, come to New Zealand because of New Zealand action at the beginning of the war in Cyprus and other parts of [00:01:00] Greece. Um, and they had been because they had helped New Zealand soldiers and that when the Germans counter invaded, um, they were given special condition to come to New Zealand. So But all the boys um, at school, we always like to boast about what our father did in the war. And, um, I found that, um, I keep coming up against a brick wall. Dad and mum about that. It was not something they wanted to discuss at all. I found out later that Dad actually had, of course, been conscripted into the army. [00:01:30] They'd taken them over the from the Trentham training camp, but the convoy truck went over the edge and went flying down into the ravine. Several young men were killed, I believe. But Dad, um, suffered virtually a broken back. So, um, he was, um, no, not fit for overseas action. So he's part of the home guard. They lived in, um, number 14, Constable Street. And they received the envelopes, um, through the [00:02:00] letter box with the white feathers. They had a lot of verbal abuse because my two brothers were born during the war. So to see a wife, young wife walking around with a pram, two baby boys and a husband on her arm, even though he was in home guard uniform, Um, people? Yes. When their own husbands and brothers and fathers had been gone. Um it wasn't pleasant. So for my family, um, staunchly labour and anti-war. Anyway, um, it wasn't a pleasant time, [00:02:30] but yeah, boys used to always post about where their father was if they were in a camp, you know, prisoner war camp, that sort of thing. Can you Can you recall what impact? Uh, those, uh, white feathers had on your dad? I think it was terrible. I think that, um for dad, he was a real man's man. He was a hard man. Um, and, uh, one of the I still that you'd say no. Dad knew how to look after himself. He'd been a trained boxer. And in fact, he was the official timekeeper for the New Zealand Boxing [00:03:00] Association. Right up almost till he died. So being a watchmaker and jeweller, and that's how that came about. He got training with disabled servicemen, Disabled Serviceman's League as a watchmaker and jeweller, So he had his own jewellery, watchmaker and jewellery shop in Newtown for many, many years when I was a little boy. So he, um it was horrible. It was horrible for Dad. And, um, I think very, very demoralising because everybody wanted to do their bit, you know, King and country. Yes. [00:03:30] So if we were to go back and look at the records, um, we wouldn't find a a Jake watchmaker, would. He, um, was known as Tom Cameron Thomas. William Cameron. Um, however, he didn't change his name by deed. Poll to Cameron. Um, until 1967 I believe at the instigation of Arnold, nor my dad was very active in the Labour Party. And it was Arnold that said, Tom, we actually need to really clear this up because we don't want a a scandal about [00:04:00] who is this man, really? And, uh, so, really, my father was technically Thomas, William Jake most of his life. But in 1967 he he did change his name to formally to Cameron as a family name. However, we had all been born prior to that, we were all registered as Cameron. It's just the way things were then. I think, and so at some point, you you've changed your your name. Yes, I did. Uh, I changed my name in my late thirties. I was contemplating [00:04:30] marriage, and I eventually did marry a very lovely lady. Um and I did, um, decide that if I was going to have Children, I'd found out about this name change. We we were brought up not knowing about it. It was at one of those skeletons in the family closet. Um, and, um I thought, Well, this is a bit ridiculous. Why? We were wandering around being called Cameron when we're not. And, um, I decided that I wanted to be John Jake, So, yeah, but prior to that, as I said, I, I had earlier been called Stuart Cameron changed [00:05:00] it to John Cameron, then John. Jake. So for friends, it's been a bit of a journey, but, uh, I feel a lot better about myself for it. And you mentioned marriage. So how would you kind of identify in terms of your sexuality? Um well, right from a very little boy. I was what, you know, a sissy little boy. And I loved all those sort of things of that. My mother was very social, and she was with, um, all kinds of societies, you know, one free kindergarten [00:05:30] and united mothers and all kinds of, um, leagues and on hospital board. So of course, she did a lot of entertaining and entertain entertaining of women. So tea parties with the trolley and the whole And, of course, Dad having a watchmaker jewellers, the very best of China. Um, they were all wonderful bakers, and so I loved to hover around that and see what they're wearing. And I love to spy on their conversations. And of course, they'd say, Go outside and play And I would hide [00:06:00] just through there at the door and sort of listen and eavesdrop, And you learned their little coded language and they would say things like, um oh, have you seen, um, the lately and I go no and say, Oh, she's looking interesting. Very interesting. Hm. Quite interesting. Oh, how are they going to cope with that? And I began to realise that interesting meant, of course, pick some not too welcome. Baby was on the [00:06:30] way or a, you know, a little afterthought. You know, that sort of thing. But I loved, um I've always loved that sort of, um, the way they were dressed in 19 fifties, the hats and all that sort of thing. And I think everybody around me, they they all knew and they knew, You know that You hear someone comments. He should have been a girl and that sort of comment, and then it never really worried me. Can you recall any coded language say, for homosexual or gay? How did they describe the other side? [00:07:00] He's yes, he's the other side. That was just said. Oh, and everyone knew, um, or they say, Oh, he's got special friends and they go, Oh, yes, you know, And, um, of course, you know, you had to use things always, uh, a pansy and that but they didn't say that as a derogative. That was that was just a like Now you might say, you know, he's gay or, uh, what have you? I mean, it's it's all changed. I mean, once [00:07:30] upon a time, even as a gay man, you would never use the quer word or in heaven for bad a faggot word. And I must say I as a gay man, I will only accept it on my terms. People use those terms around me because, hm. You know, I remember a time as I said to you earlier. It hasn't always been fashionable to be a gay person, male or female. So? So what? What term would you prefer? Um Oh. I refer to myself [00:08:00] as gay and, um yeah, you know people. Yes. I don't mind. You know, as I say, it's good to be on. Uh, my, uh, with my OK as it were, you know? I mean, so you I've got lots of really great straight male friends, and I'm very dear to me, and they are very special friendships. And they're hard people, you know, pig hunting and all the whole thing where I live. That's what you know, I was in for many years. And, um so I have some very good [00:08:30] friends from those days, and we still contact. They would they would be very protective and defensive of me if, you know, they thought anything was going on. Um, and they know that we have a real mutually trusting relationship, friendship and their wives. And they adore me and their close friends, too. Um, but they might say, Oh, yes, I'll they get. That's fine. There's no problem. I'm not precious about it. I'm not precious about it. No, it's, You know, you don't walk around waiting to be offended. [00:09:00] Do you? Or shouldn't do so That coded language about, say, playing for the other side or on the other side? Was that the what 19 fifties was? See, I was born in 1947 so I sort of became aware of all this Sort of like 1955 56. Um, that was when you know, But then I was about five or six years old, seven years old, And it was then I started to experiment with dressing up myself. You know, um, every family had a dressing up box, [00:09:30] and, um, grandmothers and and different people in the family would, um you know, I don't need this old fox fur anymore. Or this funny old hat that was last, you know, year season, whatever. And we would have this wonderful box, which every now and again we were allowed to get it out and do dress ups. And of course, it didn't. It was, regardless of, um, all kids did it. Little straight little boys and everybody all dressed up as different things. I like dressing up, of course, in, [00:10:00] um, mum's old shoes. She had her size 3 ft, so, you know, typical. She was, um you know, uh, a flapper in her day. So, of course, a tiny feet. So of course they fitted very well. And, um, and just putting on all that and traps around the house and having fun. And Mom never batted an eyelid. And in fact, um, we sort of enter into it. I'd come out to the kitchen wearing all this and with my sister, and we'd all be doled up and mum would, um oh, you know, I've got two ladies [00:10:30] visiting me today, and, um, would you like a glass of cordial, you know, And it was great fun. Um, and then I started to want to do it outside. And so, um, Mum wouldn't get back from the shop. You know where dad was till about 55. 30. So I would get home from school, And, um, by about 3. 30 I'd rush to the dress up box rush out with, um I always have a little bit of pocket money. And for [00:11:00] a penny, you could get a ride down to the, um hospital Wellington Hospital on the tram. And so I'd get on the tram because there would be all these people coming back from the zoo or whatever to go back downtown and I'd get into the ladies' compartment. There was always a ladies' compartment in the trams. Men did not go in there. And, um because the ladies would be dolled up in those days, You know, the whole twin set the gloves, the whole thing, and, uh, we'd zoom off on the tram, the conductor would come around and [00:11:30] because I would put on a persona. And then when I got down to the, um hospital, I'd cross the crossing. You know, cars would stop, you know, and I'd wait and catch the tram back up. And the idea was, get home, get the gear off. And because Mom didn't really want me, I don't think, but I've got a shrewd idea. They knew. They must have known. But I would, um, get on the tram to go back, and I can remember one instance, uh, I obviously used to I would get [00:12:00] so into the fantasy. I would talk to myself in those conversations. So I was talking about earlier as I'd overheard, you see, so I'd be talking to myself. It would be a two person conversation in my mind, so I'd be going so and so It's interesting. My hat Would that be a fact? All those old Kiwis, you know, fancy that. And then this in what I thought was a lady's voice. And I could still remember these ladies sitting opposite me. And they're all dressed up with those little hats with the little veils down, [00:12:30] you know, and Bunches of fruit on top or a bird. You know, 19 fifties, a full thing, and you'd see them kind of looking at each other and kind of smiling and thinking, My goodness, you know, my hat, as they would say in those days, you know, And then because I'd get off trailing my dress behind me because it was too too long for me. And, um, yes, I must have looked to real sight, but that was, um Yeah, that that was my earliest recollection [00:13:00] of other little boys at school. Didn't do that. And if they saw me, I didn't give a damn. You know, innocence is bliss, you know, I just had no idea that it was This was unusual. It was just something I did. And of course it was, um it was a real attention grabber and I love that, too. So So did anyone recognise you? I think they did. I said my mother was very well known in the shop, and they would see me down at the shop playing, and because sometimes you had to come home back from school and they'd [00:13:30] say, We want you to stay at the shop today because we're going to be doing something else, you know. So, yes. I mean, when Newtown in those days was a community very much a community, there were families that have lived there for generations. It underwent a total change in character in the late 19 fifties. Um, just a lot of the old families moved out and those houses became flats. And yeah, So why do you think your family was so accepting? I mean, if if if they knew this was going on, where did that acceptance come from? It's [00:14:00] only in later life that I realised that because, um, as I told you, I did go away and live overseas, and when I came back, I think it must have been by this time. I was in my mid twenties and I was wearing clothes that I had bought overseas, which were pretty out there by New Zealand standards, even in the seventies. Um, and also my mannerisms. I found that they never blinked. And it was only later on that things started to come out about that in the family. There had been other men like this [00:14:30] and, um what they called theatrical. They didn't attach a homosexual gay label to it. I think they just thought, Oh, isn't he a card? Isn't he funny? And his friends and, gosh, they are They funny when they play the band, you and they all dressed up and they, you know, singing at parties entertaining People were starved for that sort of thing. So New Zealand was a pretty grey sort of place. And not all families even had a radio in those days. And [00:15:00] we're talking about before the first World War. Um, these were uncles of my mother in and, um so, um, I don't know how many, but I do know that, um, one or two of them were part of a group and they would get around Wellington singing at people's parties and performing at pubs by invitation. Yes, just, you know, And of course, people just loved it because people starve for live entertainment. Especially if it was what it was for free. [00:15:30] And the the boys would be having lots of fun doing it. And the onlookers loved it, too, because it was a card. It was funny. It was Yes. Yeah. So this would have been Edwardian Wellington? Yeah. Edward in Wellington. And those, um, boys? Well, several of them died in the first World War. Yes. And so that history kind of went away, But my there was in living memory of my mother. Yes, [00:16:00] of course it was. So Yeah, because my mother was born in 19 09. So, yeah. So she she grew up seeing them dressed up. And the fan? Yes. Lots of fun. Hm. So there was family acceptance. What about, um, within yourself? I mean, did you not totally, Gareth? No I. I struggled with it. I would have loved to have been straight. I used to really wish I was, um and [00:16:30] because I wanted just to be like everybody else. Not because I wanted, um a boring old life as a heterosexual. Now I wanted family and Children. I just loved Children. I'm powerfully maternal, paternal by nature. I love babies and small Children and caring for them. And I know a lot about it because I've grown up with all that. And I was often babysitting as I was growing up because they neighbours and knew that I was good with little babies and Children. So II, I just today [00:17:00] I saw a man. He's 45. I used to babysit him when he was little. And so, um, Brooklyn. Sorry. So I loved family, and I wanted that more than anything else. Um and so I turned to religion thinking that that would help me, Um, that I've got if you know, if Jesus would only, you know, and it never happened. And I genuinely went through a terrible dark decade. Really? [00:17:30] Where? Um Yes, from probably around about 1966 up until the mid seventies, where I certainly was not self accepting. I certainly was not prepared to accept it. I was I would go through long, long periods of, um, celibacy and then eventually, just craving some kind of physicality, some kind of affection I would succumb, and, um, then I'd rack myself over it and [00:18:00] beat myself up badly about it and and beg forgiveness, you know, and, um, and torment myself over it. I mean, don't forget. I mean, I spent 4.5 years living in Barcelona, and, um, you know, I was a good head and shoulders taller than everybody else around me, and, um, and good looking with us. And, um, I would often be pursued, you know, you'd realise someone was following you from the bus following you to your door, hovering around, and and [00:18:30] you'd be in the way. They looked at you, you know, They say in the song Spanish eyes, you would see it and you'd realise Oh, and I would be tempted like mad. As I said every now and again, I would succumb, I think. Oh, you know, to hell with it, you know? Yeah. I mean, we all have a right to affection if we want it. And sexuality, and I would rationalise it. But then I would This is what you know. Being staunchly Christian can do it. No, [00:19:00] you've really disappointed us all up here. You know, God's very angry, You know that. Yes, I still Yeah. I must say, uh, sometimes have my little moments with that one. So around the same time. So we're talking. I'm thinking about, like, 1963 when Charles A was killed in park, uh, by a group of youths. Did that have any impact on you Because you would have been a teenager at that point? Yes. [00:19:30] Um, and of course, you'd hear the way the adults talked about it. Um, because that was there. Now that was different. You see, like there was, um a man was murdered in the street. There was a cottage at the top of the street, but notorious. And there was a Dutch guy that it was his territory. Gay fella. I just see him around the town. Big, strong looking fella. Uh, but that was his place. And, um, and other gay people need to stay away. You know, he would shoot them away. Get them away. This was his [00:20:00] his place. He got murdered up there. Um, when those sort of things happened, um, and gay beatings. I think people thought well, they're perverts, and they deserved it. That was now different. That was different from being a pansy funny person at a party that was different from you know, cups of tea and tiny cakes. And, oh, isn't he entertaining? And he's so intellectual, wasn't he? And isn't he funny? No, this was different. These are [00:20:30] sort of people that hung around Wellington Wharf. Haunted the railway station, hung around public toilets in the library, You know, that sort of thing. So the public generally know very anti it. It was like, got what he deserved. Even though some of the poor things were murdered. I'm beaten horribly, Yes. And even notable people parliamentarians that got caught out. I mean, I remember Carmen when she [00:21:00] said, uh, because we used to talk about it, you know, and, uh, she said, Oh, there's quite a few of them in parliament. And next minute she was called up to Parliament to address them on it. Yes, and one of my friends went with her as part of her retinue. They really got themselves full dolled up to go to Parliament. They were gonna make They knew the cameras would be there. This is in the, uh, late seventies. Yeah, yeah. Yes, it was Yes. Yes. I can't remember the exact years. I'm not good at years. Yeah, I still remember [00:21:30] it, though. Yeah, As I said, one of my closest friend. Yeah. So just heading back to the sixties, Where would you meet People like you. You you were saying? I mean, you you mentioned a couple of places, like the the Toilets and that. So that's the kind of the the beach, the confusing area. It's funny how gay people had categories amongst themselves, and it was based around where they liked to meet men. So you had, um, bar queens, and they hang around the bars, [00:22:00] and there were well known bars where things are a bit flexible. Um, and, um, you knew that there were those kind of bisexual closet males married very often. Um, who would be there? Um, And if you and you, you had to be discreet, but you had to have a way of letting them know mannerisms or something you wore that made them think, Oh, he's a little bit because remember, this was New Zealand back then. Um, and [00:22:30] that where they would realise. Oh, he's not quite like, run of the mill, and they would twig. Um, So you had your bar queens, and then you had, um as we were saying earlier, Public toilet, Bob Queens. They all had names. Everybody used to know their name, and it was based on either a physical characteristic. Like if they're a little bit lame, it'd be all hobbies down there. Yes. Or you know, the Flying Dutchman? Yes, Onion Head. You know, because one guy was going bald, he used to run a raw onion into [00:23:00] Pete in the hope of growing the hair back. So onion head and long, many years after he had long stopped doing that experiment, he was still onion head. Um, and they would have their favourite places. Um, but then, you know, there was beaches and the wharves railway station, those sort of place anywhere where the public were coming and going and that, Yeah, you know it. It's, um it was very much hit and miss kind of thing. [00:23:30] You know, the people weren't so what would it say? Gays didn't really look so much for relationships then because it really wasn't acceptable to families very often, But they did do it. They did do it. Yeah. So what were some of the things that you did to make yourself kind of recognisable? to other people. Um, well, I was I've always been, um, self evident and that with my mannerisms and I have a high voice. And for that, I had elocution training. So [00:24:00] I spoke in a way which, to most people, was effeminate in New Zealand. Um, if you print, I don't talk like it now, but vowel sounds, um, people say you should be in the theatre, John, um, you know that that would set you aside or set you apart is Oops. There's something going on there. So, um, I found that, um, there was no need to really advertise too much, but don't forget, we lived in the era of the limp wrist, lavender, trouser, pansy, [00:24:30] mincing down manor Street That you saw that quite a bit. Those have all gone now. You never see that the min and pansy with the shoulder bag? No, they're not around anymore. That was the way people advertised. You had to be pretty blatant. And that way, um, if you went somewhere like a beat like we were talking about earlier, an onlooker who could be injured would see you arrive and think, Oh, there's one. That's a that's certain [00:25:00] and things can happen quite quickly. Yes. So, in a way, it was wearing your heart on your shoulder and getting out there and letting everyone know. Yes, but in my case, um, I know people all and being a ladies hairdresser, you were in the industry, and people knew you were, um And when you're mixing with ladies and women, um, all the time your conversation style is around that sort of style as well, So they know. Oh, this is a man that's used to being around [00:25:30] the ladies. Yeah, that So that set you aside as well. You know, people knew. Yeah, and And somebody commented to me, um, a while ago about Wellington being known as the Queen City. Oh, very much. In fact, it always made us laugh when Auckland suddenly declared itself the Queen City based all around its harbour. And it's wonderful yachting and and that's great. But we were always the Queen City and always had been going right back to Victorian times. Don't forget, Wellington [00:26:00] was the city of brothels, and I mean Taranaki Street. Um street. Um uh, yes, right up to street. The old was lined with with brothels And so, um, there was so as with that goes the other side of it, too. If men weren't that interested in women, there was plenty of the other as well. And, um, you know, you could always go out and find a lonely [00:26:30] sailor. Don't forget Wellington Harbour when I was young and prior to that, and you see old photos, the harbours were sailing vessels. They were all sailors, and they were looking for a good time. We used to have some fabulous time. Fabulous parties, American ships coming in. Brits, French, fabulous. The the streets would be thronging with them. They'd all be in uniform French boys with their pompoms on their tops, you know? And what have you and the Yanks? And of course, you know, the coffee bar culture. [00:27:00] You know, um, Marie and all those places and you'd go in and and parties and a street and all those sort of streets around here, too. And so people had parties after the pubs closed, and if the ship was important, they'd always have three or four or five or more guys from the ship. Great fun. You know, I, I I've lost the thread of the question. You asked. Really? We were just talking about, um, how Wellington used to be known as the Queen City. Oh, yes. And so, um, there was [00:27:30] always, um, a lot of, um And, um, so you saw people who were obviously dressed up, as we call it, um, and, um, wigs and the whole drama or whatever. Um and so it was very like it was very much in your face. You know, you're walking up Cuba street, you know, or anywhere. Um, you would see, um, trans and gay men, As I said, the mincing pansy. So [00:28:00] And Wellington was always considered quite a safe city for that Christchurch. Not funny enough. And we need and even less Auckland. Um, remember going up there in the early seventies. And that was at that time when Wellington still was very much that city that we're just talking about? No, Not like Wellington. No. Wellington has always been pretty blatantly, uh, blatant about it. Now. I think it goes right back to that era that I talked about earlier. Where I mean, everyone knew really what was [00:28:30] going on in those private hotels and places, You know that lined the streets down there in the central city. Yeah. So how did the general population, um, react to, say, the mining pansy or the or the Oh, well, I can. I've seen them being set upon a group of young guys come along and next minute, jeering and yelling. And the next minute full on, um, I mean myself. I was studying hairdressing at the time at our hairdressing academy [00:29:00] at 43 Lower Cuba Street. And, um, myself and the other students of hairdressing there was probably only a couple of guys, but most of them were girls. We'd all go out, you know, after a day and you'd get, um they'd see guys coming towards you, Um, on James Smith's corner or along Manor Street. There would they'd see you coming along with these girls yakking away about what had happened during the day, and they would deliberately shoulder you off the pavement and tell you get out [00:29:30] of the way. Um, I've been walking along Man Street on a Friday night, and that, of course, was the busiest, busiest night of the week. That was all the shops were open till nine o'clock. The streets were very much like a European street. People thronging It was I loved going downtown on a Friday night. I just shopping. And what have you but also to meet friends? What have you? And, um uh, a truck went past me on Manor Street, A high truck and the guy on me loudly after [00:30:00] first bellowing at me that I was a puff or something and it got me one. And everyone around me on the pavement laughed. And I remember that thinking how horrible. You know, I'd never encountered that. It it went on. I can remember people just like in pubs, you know? I mean, I've been in a bar myself, the Regent Tavern, and had guys come over to the table you're drinking and tell you to get Get out, you know, and go away is not for your type. I've been kicked out [00:30:30] of the of a hotel for being obviously gay. I wasn't doing anything. I just turned up and was told your type are not allowed in here. It was a grand hotel. Yes. Your your lot are not allowed in here. But I remember in the region Yes, and sitting upon us and next minute, a table of very, um, well presented transvestites who were not obviously transvestites. They came rushing over. And did they deal to those guys? I've never seen a [00:31:00] group of real, quite strong men dispatch so quickly. Yeah, it was amazing. Yeah, absolutely amazing. You know, um, but that was good, because that shows solidarity. Because it wasn't always mostly the tranny hated the gays, the queers, as I called them. And they called the Dorian Club the Queer Club and queer. Don't forget was a bad word. I mean, I myself, I've been admonished strongly in those days by actually referring to the Queer [00:31:30] Club myself. It slipped out, but from other homosexuals, um, who were very obvious. But they did not like that term. Um and likewise, a lot of gay men did not like men dressed up the drag queens that did not like them. I think it was jealousy, actually. On both. Well, yeah, I don't know. Jealousy, perhaps? Yeah, it was, like very, very divided. Whereas now it's quite peculiar. It's It's quite the reverse. I find that a lot of the gay guys [00:32:00] they really love the trannies, they they celebrate them and, um, it's changed. Yeah. Yes. And no doubt it will change again too. We always go in cycles. I think at the moment we're going through a very, very good era for gay people. Um, I never, ever have any trouble now at all. Um, ever And, um, it's quite celebrated. It's quite open. I find straight people talk about the wedding. They went to where the girls got married [00:32:30] or the two guys got married or my son's marrying his partner. And what have you it? It can change. And we're seeing that even in America, there is a swinging around. Laws can go backwards and I. I think it's wonderful where we're at at the moment in New Zealand and Long may at last, um, and we can still take it for granted, but it can swing back the other way. Yeah, Yes, I want to take you back to the 19 sixties. So when you're [00:33:00] when you're a teenager, I'm fascinated that nowadays, um, teenagers can go online and they can discover themselves, and they can learn about a whole range of things. But back then, in the sixties, how did you find out about homosexuality? like I mean, we did. Where did that information come from? Yes, well, that's an interesting point, because you used to hear a lot. Um, Gareth of the I thought I was the only one in the world, and I did go through a little [00:33:30] bit of that because my parents and my family, we moved to, um up the coast to and, uh, when I was about 11 and up there was a totally different environment for me in Newtown. As I said earlier in this talk, uh, quite different, you know, feeling to it. Um, they're far more parochial. And, um, where is it? I didn't feel people were bigoted or anything, but it was just different. And, um, it wasn't discussed, [00:34:00] but I could discuss it with Mum. Funny enough, my mother was ahead of herself there, I think her own life experience and those things I touched on earlier. So I could always talk to Mum about heterosexual sexuality. Um, all those things that a boy wants to hear about, You know, um, I am curious, um, and and gayness, too. And she would touch on it anyway, sometimes, I think because she knew what was going on. She knew the struggle. She could see the religious [00:34:30] thing. She was quite worried about that. She was quite worried about that. And she could see it wasn't making me happy. And that I'd come back feeling worse than what I, you know, had when I left home. Um, and she was trying to, I think mentor me through it, but yes, an answer to your question there. And there wasn't a lot of discussion about it either, you know? And they weren't the reference books and things like that. I can remember, you know, reading a book which was very celebrated. Um, some years later, of [00:35:00] course, it was called The Joy of Sex. And I thought, Oh, this will have something about it. Oh, and it was awful. The section on gay sexuality. It was horrible. It was a perversion, and it was unnatural. And, um, it even spoke about certain case studies they've done and how you know. Really? Yeah, it was. And all this. So it didn't make you feel very good about yourself. The Kinsey report was marvellous because that really blew everyone away, so to [00:35:30] speak. Um, it was very, very much you know, something that came out with figures that showed, like this one in 10 is an obvious homosexual, but probably there's another five of them who are part time and or closeted, and they probably just a further one or two which have experimented in other times at different stages of their lives, never gone back to it. But I've certainly done something about it. And that was like, Wow! And they said that was definite, [00:36:00] that those figures were based on years and years of study of an Anglo Saxon culture. I must say it was very Anglo Saxon based, quite a different story in Latin countries or Asian countries. Um, yeah. So, um, they those are the ways you found out. And for me, um, spending those years in Spain from age 21 till I was 25. We, of course, living under the Franco regime, [00:36:30] Um, and a very Catholic militarist country, something unlike we could ever imagine in New Zealand. Um, and the very repressive against obvious homosexuality homosexuals were carted off, actually to special camps to be dealt with. Um, but on the But there was so much hypocrisy because, uh, the virginity in women was very highly steamed. If we went out in a group with [00:37:00] girls, you went in a group. Always. That's the only way the family would feel comfortable about it. So the girls were chaperoning each other. Um, and it was all pretty innocent. Naive stuff, flirting and a lot of carry on homosexuality was never ever discussed. Um, if you saw someone that was obviously homosexual, it was like derided. But the the hugely funny thing about it was that probably I'll be careful here. Probably 75% of males [00:37:30] at that time had homosexual experiences because it was about the only way available. Unless you went, you know, had the money to go with a good prostitute lady prostitute. It was the only way to have an outlet. So it was kind of, um, you know, something was there, but we didn't acknowledge it. So cinemas and and again parks places like that, you couldn't fail. You couldn't always tonnes of it in Spain. [00:38:00] So when I came back here with that Christian thing and feeling all wonky about it, I was still pretty feeling not very happy about, you know, Stewart, the homosexual and people would say to me, I mean, you're gay, aren't you? And I go, Oh, not really. You know, I thought, Well, no, I'm not going to admit to that. Um, the best thing that ever happened was I got a job at the Royal Oak Hotel as a barman. And, of course, there were several bars there. There was an upstairs bar called the Toledo, [00:38:30] which was for out of town travellers sales reps, et cetera. And it went on, you know, you could meet people, you know, And, um but it was very discreet and and and in a very, um, nice environment Downstairs, however, there was a public bar which is one of the biggest public bars in New Zealand. And that's where the workman and the Navy drank and certainly, um, obvious [00:39:00] pansies and trannies would get sent up gutless in there. But you never fail to miss, because once the men had had a few drinks, a bit of fun, and, uh, you'd see them disappear and realise, Oops. So someone's hit someone's, you know, scored. Um, Then there was another bar which was openly gay, and that was called the, um Oh dear. Oh, No, no. Yes, the tavern. That's right, the tavern bar. And [00:39:30] that really was for, you know, straight gay guys and the the the female hangers ons, you know, great fun. And then, of course, there was the bistro. And that was really sailors, Um, and drag queens prostitutes? Yes. And, uh, people came from all over the Lower North Island to visit the place just to see what it was like. You saw funny little farm and farmer groups of husbands and wives that come to Wellington for some [00:40:00] conference, but they went to the bistro to have a look People knew. And, of course, there was a certain hour of the evening around seven o'clock when the Queens would start arriving. Everyone wanted to be sitting down and watching that door as they came in because they would be dressed up to the nines. You know, full nineties seventies regalia, back combed hair and the false eyelashes and glitter. And the whole Yes. Hm. Spectacular. Spectacular. [00:40:30] Well, for me getting a job in the club bar, which is another little internal bar. Um, I. I had a guy, um, working with me who was quite obviously gay. Um we actually really turned that around, and suddenly we had people coming in there who were also gay. Um, and but also a lot of straight people. And it was a very, very nice atmosphere. For the first time in my life, I began to realise it was cool to feel comfortable about yourself. [00:41:00] And I remember a friend saying to me, John, just give to us. It's what you are. Just enjoy your life, John. And I thought that's true. And he said, Just you know, Jesus loves you. It's why you're you're still alive. You haven't been struck by lightning, just, you know, because I had confided to him he's deceased. Unfortunately, he was only 23 when he died. Um, another one of all those ones that died of heroin [00:41:30] overdoses in the day Wellington was awash with it at the time. You know, Mr Asia thing and all that going on, um and it was fashionable just like me now, but, um yeah, so I started to really Then get informed. I started to go to parties as a gay man and really have a good time. Yeah, great fun. It was run happiest time of my life. Really there? Yeah. So? So when were you working at the Royal Oak? Um, that would have been, um, as I say, I'm [00:42:00] not too good on years. It would have been probably 1975 76. I've actually got a reference from them with the dates on it. So at home somewhere. Yeah, but it was It was really an eye opener for me. And I found that people, um, were quite and straight people quite keen just to talk to you about yourself and about themselves. And it was like, you know, ladies hairdressers, and they always say, You know, people must talk to you about the most amazing things they do with [00:42:30] their too Well, in those days, not now. It's totally different. But in those days, a guy would come in at about two o'clock and he'd stay till about eight or nine o'clock and just sipping away and yacking away. And you got to know them all. You got to know what they drank. You know, you there at the bar, You know, that sort of thing. Hm. So describe to me where the royal oak was and and how many people were there on an average night. It was always thronging, always thronging. As I said, it was [00:43:00] a destination. It's a lower Cuba street, Um, at a junction there with Manor Street. Um, just opposite the on the other side of the James Smith corner. And James Smith's Corner was a great place for people to meet because all the buses came past James Smith. So people would say, Meet you outside James Smith's Everybody. And So it was a a great, and the hotel itself was a fabulous looking building, and it's just a terrible shame that they demolished it because the Hulk they've got there now is just ghastly [00:43:30] and and it's so quickly dated and tired, and they tried to turn it into a gay venue, and it was It just didn't work. But the hotel, if it'd be standing now, it would have been just an amazing place to have in the centre of a city because there was wonderful suites upstairs, and I said, all these bars, restaurants, it was just really and classy. It had been there since 18 90 or something. I mean, it was built in that style. It took them three weeks, [00:44:00] I think to demolish it. That's how strongly built it was. It had been built to last like a mausoleum to last forever. But suddenly, you know, all these wonderful buildings were being demolished, Not because of earthquakes or anything. We just get rid of the old buildings, but modern ones there. Yeah. So the mid seventies This is prior to homosexual law reform. Yes. So, with things still on the down low Oh, it was awful. Um, the police were [00:44:30] always driving around in the Holden Kingswood cars. Bored out of their brains most of the time, mostly recruited from places like and, um, no, I idea they didn't get the training like they do now in sociology and and and human the varieties of human being. They were just intolerant of the law was on their side. It was unlawful, and you could be stopped for suspicion of it. So, um, walking along [00:45:00] the street, um, well, that king incident, you wouldn't turn to a cop and say, Look what's just happened to me, Take his number. I'm going. No, that wouldn't happen. And you'd be walking home. Um, sometimes in a of an evening, and they would just stop you Pull over and stop you. Hey, come over here! And Ah, this tiresome routine. And where have you been? I've been at work. Where are you going? What's your work? Where's your address? Who were you talking to? That man down [00:45:30] there? No, I wasn't. We saw you talking to that man. I didn't Trying to get you flustered, trying to get you to lose your temper and stuff. And then they could help you. Because if you said, look, just leave me well alone or whatever, then you they've got you. And of course, some of my friends they got got. And, um, I remember one friend. He he'd been a a rousing and a sharing gang with the woman there. He'd always he was Maori. Lovely fella. Um very, [00:46:00] very, very sissy. And so he'd been just He was a Roy with the woman and the cheering sheds, but he'd come to Wellington to live and and to enjoy his life. And he he was what you'd call a mincing pansy. And I remember this night he got holed up and I was in the the next morning I was in the club bar cleaning up and getting it ready for opening. And next minute there he was in front of me in a terrible state. And, um, he had been hauled up the night before [00:46:30] taken down to the police station, and they'd hit him with rolled up newspapers. And they'd to get him to tell him who he knew and who was coming to the club bar. He he he had told them that he he liked to drink at the club bar because they asked him, Where did you go to drink? And he just said, Oh, the club bar. Oh, and they were trying to get names of other homosexuals because don't forget, homosexual were perverts. And, um, there was that thing with Children, you know? And all that carry on. [00:47:00] Um and they they were hitting him with rolled up newspapers. And then they emptied out his shoulder bag and they found lip salve. And I think they found an eyelash, mascara and a few silly things like that. As I said he was, he was very sissy. Um, and they really they had him then and they got him to write down all the names. And he was just be had himself over it. I I've done something to him. I said, Now, look, this is our secret and you not to tell anyone. [00:47:30] Don't you tell the flatmates. Don't you tell anyone what's happened. Go home, clean yourself up, go to sleep and forget it. Nothing will come of it. I just thought, you know, let it go. He was beside himself because he thought that well, he, you know, he had betrayed all his friends and that sort of thing did go on that sort of thing. Yes. Yeah. I seem to recall, in an interview with, um, Donna de Milo, [00:48:00] um, where she was saying about how the police used to provoke her, and yeah, and then then because she was so tall. Um oh, yes. I remember, uh, I caught a boy. Uh, I had my own business and he was stealing money, and my accountant phoned me, and he said there's, uh, money missing from the takings each week. He said, I can't account for it, and he said It's quite substantial, You know, it was in those days. It was a lot. $50 a week, $20 a week and and he said. [00:48:30] It's it's amounted up to a couple of 1000 he said, Who's been doing the banking every day? And I said, Oh, we got this trainee And I said, He seems to be really good at all, that sort of thing. You'd reconcile the checks and fill in the banking slips in those days and off. You'd go with the banking bag to the bank. He was pocketing it, wasn't he? So anyway, the accountant turned up and he had phoned the police, and suddenly there they were in the shop and I could see this boy was absolutely terrified. The police took him down to the police station, [00:49:00] and then about an hour later, I got a phone call and I said, Um, you know what's happening, And, um, I'm fully expecting him to tell me that. Well, actually, he's confessed. They said, um, he's in a terrible state. Um and, um, he's only, um, 18 or whatever he was, and they said, You're lucky it's not you we're coming up for because he pleaded this whole thing of I'm working with these gay guys and I, uh, you know, got and they just went with us so nothing [00:49:30] came of it. He never even got taken for theft as a servant. Nothing. It was like you deserve it. Yes. And that made me realise that, you know, the police at the time will follow the law just like they did in the 81 tour. They will do what they're told. And I saw that in Spain very much because we were getting to the end of Franco's reign. And, of course, [00:50:00] the old hierarchy. The old regime was was shrinking. It was dying with him. And so people were flexing their muscles for freedom, just as we were in New Zealand. And and particularly the 81 rugby tour you really saw out there? I saw something I had not seen since I've been in Barcelona. That was incredible. Um and, um, people. Yeah, it it wasn't It wasn't nice. No, it wasn't nice, That sort of thing. Yeah. [00:50:30] Mm. You you mentioned just before that, um, the police were using rolled up newspapers. Why would they use rolled up newspapers? I think it was a way of whacking you and making a loud noise, but not actually really leaving a a mark. Yeah, they would whack you, like on the back and on you. You know that? Like that and or on your head. Um, And it didn't leave a Yeah, that was the way it was. Um, and of course, there was AAA huge, um, [00:51:00] amount of covert surveillance around the bars and clubs. You know, a lot of, um What, you called undercover cops. Now, what they were looking for was dope. Um, you know, I had a friend who sold four tabs of LSD to an undercover cop. The cops solicited it and wanted to know, you know, in the bistro bar at the Royal Oak Hotel. That young guy got four years for that. Yeah, um, but as far as the gays were concerned, and I think that's where this what I was explaining before [00:51:30] they wanted to know who were gay and they wanted to know about their activities. Um, it was like this hidden society, you see, And so you had people coming into the bar and people got to know them. They Oh, he's a demon, you know? And they would be taking note of who was there and, um yes, asking names, you know who's that guy over there and that sort of thing, you know? So, yes, and I remember, like, one night at [00:52:00] the Dorian Club. Now, the Dorian Club was a membership only club for gentlemen. Gay gentlemen. You It was by subscription only, um, and you had to be recommended and introduced by a friend. Um, that's how serious it was. They took it that, you know, it not be perceived as something criminal, but of course, it was a gay man's club. Now it was all by today. Stems pretty corny on a Sunday afternoon because there was nothing happened in New [00:52:30] Zealand on Sunday afternoons. It was wine and cheese and classical music. Mostly it was the older gays would go down there for that, and it was a chance to chat. And, yeah, wine and cheese and classical music. Um, Then on a Friday night after nine o'clock, when the shops all closed, there was a disco night, you know, disco and, um, you you you you were admitted and they were always very careful about who came in because it had [00:53:00] to be no minor and all this you had to be with a member, and they would have a stereo. No booze, no alcohol. Um, just soft drinks. It was all pretty corny, but it was a chance for gay men to chat and laugh and dance and have a coffee and a toasted sandwich and all good fun that got raided several times on one rate, though they carted everybody out, they were all appeared. They were held in the cells over the weekend on [00:53:30] the Monday morning they were before the magistrate. Many of them Oh, they all had their names published and they many of them lost their jobs. Half the window dresses of James Smith and Kirk and stains lost their jobs because that was it. You were a criminal, and it was a criminal activity. And one or two of the people there were, um and of course, that was really something they loved. Yes, if they could get hold [00:54:00] of that sort of thing. Um, one of the fellas I knew he was an older guy. He would have been in his fifties, and he had quite a womanly look about him. And he loved dressing up. He was very good at it. And being English, and he distinctly English tone. Um, they never sprung that he was a man and he just walked out. He was just considered an English woman who just happened to be visiting the Dorian Club. I was laughed about that with a Scottish partner. [00:54:30] Yes, really? Quite funny, but, um yeah, so that was the era we lived in. Um, you know, it It was it was an illegal activity. And you did not have rights under the law, you know, um, yes, if they raided a party for something, Whatever. If you happen to be there and you were gay, you'd go down for that too, you know? Um, yes. And what about entrapment? Did the police try to Yes, they did. Yes, they did. [00:55:00] And people used to talk about it and gossip about it. For example, there were well known beats, and especially around, you know, some of those public places the library, outdoor toilets, you know, and place like and I'd say, Be very, very careful. There's this gorgeous guy down there, and he's very, very leave that to imagination Gareth and not afraid to flaunt it. Watch him. He's a cop. Watch him. And yes, they [00:55:30] did. Yes, they did catch people like that. Yeah. And, um and also, they would raid places like that, too. Yeah, And if you even if just happened to be in the vicinity, I was walking home once past the old town hall. I lived in the central city. I've been to a, um, a dinner party in Oriental Bay, and I was walking along along the sort of wharf part home, you know, still on. Not on the wharf, but, you know, where is now And, um walked down and [00:56:00] thought at the town hall, I'll turn up Cuba Street and home to street where I lived. They had done a raid, and they saw me, and they were determined I was coming with them. Um, it was only through quite stern, staunch talk from me. And luckily, I've got that ability, um, that I didn't and wasn't taken, but, yes, they they they said they'd seen me soliciting. They'd see me approaching men. I said, it's absolute rubbish. I've got people that can vouch [00:56:30] for you that with with me that 20 minutes ago I was at a dinner party and I'm on my way home. And, um, When once they were, But these were cops. They were young guys. Young idiots, you know. And the police had far less accountability then Nowadays, well, look, we know from some of the things that went on police rapes and what have you You know, now it's very different. So so do you think for them it was It was just sport and bored. And, [00:57:00] uh, it was something to go back to the station and say, you know, what have you been doing all night? Oh, well, actually, you know, they had something to write in their notebooks. Hm? Yeah. And it was quite legitimate for them, you know? Good. Give them a hard time. They need it. I mean, as I say, there was so many gay people and obviously gay people in Wellington. It was, as I said earlier, the Queen City. They couldn't fail. Yes. Always. Always sport to be had. Hm. You [00:57:30] were saying earlier about, um, some of the clientele in the bars at the Royal Oak and you mentioned service people, and so was that quite a quite a big component of of the bars. So? So people from the military well, at that time in the seventies. Um, you you had, um a lot of guys that were in the New Zealand Army and in the forces. And, uh, and we had military bases in Wellington, You know, Port Chen and other places. Um, Shelley Bay. [00:58:00] Um, Trent, uh, what have you? Um, they they would come to Wellington to have a bit of a night out, and they they Of course, they knew the gay bars to go to if they were gay. So you often have guys come in that were with the military on one in one way or another. Navy, Air Force, um, army, you know, infantrymen and that. Yeah. And, um, they knew they could go especially in the club bar, Because if someone saw them there, if they were sprung by [00:58:30] someone else at the base, it wasn't an actual gay bar. It wasn't like being in the tavern or in the bistro. Um, mind you in the bistro, you could always get away with saying, Oh, it's just the sightseeing. You know, uh, it's called those queens dressed up. Ha ha ha. You know, um, no. So this was different in the in the, um, club bar and said it was a mixed and quite quite a nice class of people went there, but yeah, yeah, servicemen. [00:59:00] I mean, it's always existed. And it was while I was there, um, about I used to open the bar. I think I can't remember now. It's all those years ago, probably about 11 o'clock. And, um, I'd get down there and I would be cleaning up the bar, getting it all ready, uh, for the opening. And I had quite a little lot of older men that used to come there. Who'd been going there? Don't forget. That place had been a pub since the Victorian era. So [00:59:30] there were men that have been going there since they were young men, and they were now in their seventies and eighties. I had a couple of them who had been at the, um Anyway, um, some of these old fellas were real old things, and they loved to talk amongst themselves about the war, the first World War, mostly. And, um, because these were men that were in their eighties. So they were the first World War, and, um, one old fellow used to come in. He had two walking sticks [01:00:00] He had a beautiful fedora hat and a lovely coat and very tailored looking. And he would He was just a petite man. And he would come in the door of the, uh, bar. It would take him nearly half an hour to really go the like the 20 ft from the door to the bar. By that time, I would have got his drink. And, um, I think he had a rum and clothes and a little short five ounce [01:00:30] beer to wash it down. And I got to know him, and I could see he was He was beautifully spoken. He was obviously, uh, of a an upper class background. And he was he'd been educated, and he told me that he'd been raised in. Um, the and his family were landed people up there, and he used to talk about the lovely parties that his parents attended, and they would go for days sometimes to get to these old homes [01:01:00] out in the countryside and with horses and drys and coaches. In those days, I suppose of that would have been cars and and probably, you know, the early cars and they'd have these wonderful, um, balls and parties at people's homes, and they would stay for 5 to 6 days. And he said that, um, we sort of got to know each other enough that he would sort of let his guard down. And he said, because he was quite, um, what you'd call effeminate by nature, but in a refined way, not in a sissy way. [01:01:30] He had mannerisms, you know, a bit like some of those sort of English types, you know, the hands and facial gestures. And he said that How, um there's a little bit of Sheni used to go on down at the stables. I mean, always found it a reason to disappear from the party or go down to see if the horse was all right. And you got to know that if that, um, you could get down there at the same time that and of course they did. They check the horses, had their oats for the night [01:02:00] and groom them and whatever that you needed to do, check. They were OK, but it was a rendezvous, and he said it wasn't sordid, and it wasn't necessarily what they would have thought of as homosexual, but it was because, you know, even the term homosexual wasn't really known. It was more or less, um, fooling around, fooling around pretty innocent stuff. Probably. Um, they wouldn't be gay by orientation. A lot of them. It was just an outlet. It was [01:02:30] just something you did. And with a with a special mate, you know, and, um and very And as he said, very, very loving And not something you talked about. Um, together. It would when it happened, it happened. And then we forget about it to the next episode. But you didn't forget about it, Of course. And you always contrive to get back together for another episode because it was rather wonderful. And, um yes. And as I said earlier, there was there wasn't [01:03:00] the, um the affection shown, um, day to day, like there is now and touching. And, um, just genuine things that we are now. No. People were much more sto stoical and withheld and did not express themselves, um by, you know, touching even, you know, innocent touching. This wasn't protocol. So these opportunities for loving and holding [01:03:30] and and and and sharing physicality were was wonderful. And so did he also go through the war World War One? Yes, he did. He later on. And I I got to know him really well, he he would come in once or twice a week, Um, because he he he realised he had a mate that he could talk to. And, um, he, of course, was conscripted, um, into the war effort in [01:04:00] the first World War, and he ended up in France. Now, that's when I began to notice that none of the other old vets would talk to him. In fact, he always his posse was right up the other end of the bar. So I used to have to go all the way up his end to serve him and then all the way down to the other way in to serve the others. And, um, when I went to serve them, if I'd been talking to him, they would smile away about him and, uh, you [01:04:30] know, and then one day he told me why I you know, II. I wonder why it was he wasn't with the others because they all love to talk about, you know, the war. And, um, he said to me that soon after he arrived in France. Um, they were taken up to go to the front and a superior officer high ranking, something like a major or something. You know, I don't know for certain, um, recognised [01:05:00] in him that he was a sensitive young lad and had him, um, sequester as aid to camp. So, in other words, he was to, um, keep the officers room or tent or whatever, and care for him. Help make sure his laundry was done and be his aide to camp. And so he never really saw frontline action. And it was pretty obvious. Well, that it was a homosexual [01:05:30] relationship, and, um, but had to be very discreet, But it was a homosexual relationship, and it was obvious to the other soldiers as well, because they could see he never actually went to the front where they all were. And it was terrible, you know? I mean, my own grandfather served there. It was a terrible thing. Um, we all know about the the trenches. So he avoided, um, close, combative action. [01:06:00] And they still held that against him to that day. Um, he came back. And his parents, um and this is where an article I saw on Facebook touched a chord. Um, because this woman was writing about her own father and said how he came under pressure and finally was obliged to marry because his parents said, we have to have a child to pass on the farm. The same happened with this gentleman. [01:06:30] He married and he had about eight Children. Um, and, um, but when his wife died, he went back into his. He came to Wellington to live where he wasn't going to cause embarrassment to his Children. Um, who had all done very, very well. Of course, they had benefited from a a wonderful upbringing. And that was the class of people we're talking about earlier. Um, and they were all academics and professionals. Um, but here they are. Their little old dad Was this [01:07:00] little old auntie getting around Wellington, you know, and, um yeah, it it was a, uh, an amazing insight, um, into a world which I had not No, no. Oh, he also told me there was a a hell of a lot of it went on. He said that was the hypocrisy of it because you had young guys coming together from all over Australia and New Zealand fighting to as a unit together the ANZAC ANZAC. And he said [01:07:30] they came from all the most remote to the most city dwelling. All backgrounds, all thrown in together and tremendous friendships were forged. Um, they had to look to each other for psycho emotional and sexual, um, support that some of them were, um, back home in Australia, New Zealand, um, homosexuals. They were living their lives, as in the in those days as you could as actual [01:08:00] homosexuals. Now, they were with, you know, lots of other men. And I suppose you've heard of institutional, um, homosexuality where men or women can be thrown together in a, um, a single sex environment. And then it becomes an unwritten rule that we don't really talk about it, but it certainly goes on because there isn't the outlet. You see that in in in the forces, you see that in in prisons, you see that in all sorts of environments where you know they're they're monos. [01:08:30] And he said it went on, and in fact, he said that the rate of infection, um, and gonorrhoea was huge and at one stage stopped the advance he told me about that, and he said that that because he was talking about those old bugger down the other end of the bar. You know, if you know, I'm telling you, it went on and he said that about this. At one stage, the advance was halted because there so many men, um, who were infected with, [01:09:00] um, sexually transmitted disease. Yeah, Gonorrhoea, probably. Yeah. Hm. I say he was a gentleman, so he didn't speak graphically like I am now. It was just more sort of, um, you know, you you expect to catch on to what he was talking about. It must be a really position as a as a bar person. I've never forgotten to be in those situation. Never forgotten. I've often thought about him. He used to dress up. His name was [01:09:30] is that amazing? He used to still dress up, and he was well, in his eighties with his two walking sticks. Yes. And of course, you know, he was He was had always obviously been a very fine featured young man. So he he just looked like any other little old dear little old lady dressed up. So he's still dressed up. Isn't that incredible? Just thinking about some of the other, um, clientele in the bars in the seventies. Did you get a sense the, um, times were [01:10:00] changing in terms of all the kind of political activism and all the gay liberation that was happening in the seventies? Did you see that in the in the bar scene as well? Not so much because you've got a AAA real mixture of people. So, um, and the dominant culture was the the culture of, um, it's not a good thing, you know, And it's illegal. And, of course, as I said earlier, undercover cops and and all that, um, but it certainly went on, and there was a revolution happening. [01:10:30] Um, because amongst young people, don't forget, I was just in my mid twenties, but a lot of my friends were younger. Um, certainly, suddenly it was like, let it all hang out, you know? And if you have an inclination that way, why not do it? I mean, Janis Joplin and everybody else was advocating this, And, um, you know, that whole thing that was coming out of, um, California, um, and, uh, sexual liberation. And, um, if you feel the need do it. And especially, [01:11:00] of course, a lot of people were smoking dope. Um, and that loosened things up a lot. And, of course, we look, you know, at that era, we were the baby boomers, and we were all going through that that stage of our life where we all wanted a good time, you know, sex, love and rock and roll and drugs and the whole package. So, yeah, it's an amazing era to live in. And we were all very idealistic. We really thought we could change the world by this, that the hippie thing was going to [01:11:30] really change it. People were going to love each other more. Then there wouldn't be wars because our fathers had all gone to war. Um, so Vietnam was very bad in Korea. That was bad. It was really not. Not not good. Um, but when you look back at it, you think how naive we all were. But we we we were full of ideals like that, and and women's live was just beginning to And, um, many of us were male feminists. Um, if there can be such a thing and really felt that [01:12:00] there was a real need for equality with women. And, um, and that women could do anything. And, um, yes. And I heard just thinking of that. I heard that, uh, women weren't allowed into public bars. No. Oh, no, no, no. They were not. No, they weren't allowed. Especially unaccompanied. No, definitely not. It was, You know, that was that They often had what was called a was a horrible term of cats bar in some of the pubs. And that was where a like a in the Rovers [01:12:30] return on Coronation Street. The snug A man wouldn't be seen dead in there, but that's where women could go and and and be quite respectable, you know, and have a drink. Um, a woman could always go into a bar with her husband. Um, you know, and and I had quite a few of my customers that that their wives would meet them, um, after work on a Friday night, they'd come into the bar, have a few drinks and go somewhere nice for a meal, Um, and then do some shopping and go home. That [01:13:00] was a New Zealand thing to do, but, um no, but the royal oak don't forget that was different. The Royal oak was a place where, yes, women could would go on their own. Because who, you know, There were bars there. It was obvious that, um, prostitution was going on, And, um, everyone turned a blind eye to that. That that wasn't persecuted. Being gay was, but no, even no one bothered about that. And for other bars, the reason why women couldn't [01:13:30] go into a bar alone was because, Well, I think, um, the bar didn't want to lose its reputation as being a respectable place that respectable people would stop going there. Um, if the single woman was sitting there and getting inebriated or or just drinking and smoking, it was was, you know, and so they the bars were very aware of that. Um, especially the more, um, upper class bars. Like I said, the grand hotel and what have you Those are places where [01:14:00] gentry went to drink, so, Yeah, it's different. If, um, it was a group of women who are obviously I suppose, um, professionals. That was different. Um, women in business suits, you know, as women did in those days. Civil servant women. And what have you, uh, professionals, lawyers? That was that was different. But just for an ordinary woman to walk in No, not really. It's strange, isn't it to think about that now. But as I said, you know, [01:14:30] um, bars are funny about things like there was a a hotel that's closed now it's called. It was called the Railway Tavern after the demise of the Royal Oak and it was demolished. And what have you that took over as a gay venue? There was a downstairs public bar. It was pretty rough. But upstairs, um, there was a jukebox. And you you could have a really good time and gaze of of all kinds of persuasions, men and women. And you could dance. There was a dance floor. [01:15:00] It obviously in its day in the forties or earlier, had been an entertainment room, and and so we we went up there and had lots of fun. The publican, uh, began to get complaints downstairs. So some of them have seen a lot of those going up there. And and I'm telling you that for about eight or nine or more months it thronged upstairs with gaze. He must have made a fortune out of it. Suddenly he barred them. The pub died. [01:15:30] Yes. And that was it. He did. He thought that his tavern was going to get a bad name. It's crazy. It just was not a business like decision. Um, and suddenly we all had to find another venue because going to the pub was People did know. So now I haven't been in a pub for years, but going to the pub was part of your social life. You all had a favourite place to go to, you know, for drinks and meet friends. Yeah, and And so what other news were there? Dominion Tavern. [01:16:00] That was a famous, uh, place and a very sort of, um flexible. Yes, Uh, lots of gays went there, and you could be quite open in there in the tavern. Um, the forester arms was another one that was in street. Um, that was a character pub. You you got real characters there, and it was interesting is you know, you didn't just go there to drink. You went there to people watch. It was quite fascinating. [01:16:30] Eccentric people, you know, I loved it there because I just lived up the road So it was near very near home. So I used to love going there, and, um, I'd whack on a frock. Sometimes I fly in there myself, you know? Um, great. You know, there's an area out the back where you could smoke, you know, and, uh, the barman didn't even bat an isle, [01:17:00] but, uh, there are also places like, um uh, balcony. Um Oh. Well, that was with the site of what became Carmen's balcony down there. Um and, um, it's now Victoria Street, isn't it? Victoria Street? Yes. That originally had been the site of the Mexicali. The Mexicali was a sailor hooker joint and very notorious. [01:17:30] Always featured in the truth. People will be arrested and and raids took place at the Mexicali. It was fights used to erupt and and out onto the streets, you know, and people going for it later on, Um, it changed. It closed down because I think it was just being persecuted into the ground, and someone took it over, and they called it the powder Poof. And that's where I met Dana. We were all 16, you know, 17 years old, [01:18:00] and, um, we we used to go down there. And, of course, you could smuggle in a hip flask of spirit. So you went up to the the bar, and there was a someone who looked like a sumo wrestler in a dress called Geraldine. She would serve the Coca Cola, and, uh, you'd take it back to your table in the glass and, um, just discreetly top up with spirits, rum or something, you know? And that was all very, But [01:18:30] we would be raided. And, um, of course, uh, they had a back door. And of course, suddenly Geraldine come flying out and she go get out, everybody. And we'd fly out the back door and the cops had rush in the front door. Everyone went, you know, But it was a fabulous place because it was a real gay venue. And mom and dad didn't mind me going down there. I'd take the Morris 1000 and drive down, park up, go in, and, um, all pretty innocent stuff when you think about it. But it's an amazing place, [01:19:00] because that was before the Royal Oak Bistro that took over. We're talking here about 1964 65. And it was, um, yes, it was like a zoo. You know, you saw people turn up there. Oh, my God. What the hell is that? You know, it wasn't an astounding because, as I said earlier, New Zealand was pretty plain stitching, Really? So when you saw the exotic, it really was like, wow, you know, But there was, um, other venues. There was a a lesbian joint up in Vivian Street [01:19:30] right up Vivian Street. And it was called the lesbian, and that was a club lesbian. And that was the gay women's plan. And no men were allowed in there. Um, And then, of course, there was, uh, the Mon Marie and all other places. Um, where you could go, Uh, you know, for coffees and that it was Wellington was an exciting place. You know, there was lots of funny little knocks to go to and where you could, really, and all with different characters. And you could really enjoy yourself, [01:20:00] really have fun. But you always had an eye to the queer Basher Brigade and the cops. Um, it wasn't, you know, you had to have your wits about you, and you could be pretty flamboyant, but then you choose your time and place for that. You know, times were changing, though, weren't they? Because they were Gareth. And, um, it was, um really, You know, we were really being oppressed at one stage there, and, um, there was certain members of parliament. They were absolutely obsessed [01:20:30] with homosexuality, anti it, and Oh, and we'd had a few scandals in Parliament. You know, as I said, Carmen being hauled up. And then, of course, a couple of members of parliament got caught. Um, you know, around the town and, um, you know, lost their position very abruptly, and truth got hold of in the newspaper, got hold of all that. Um, and, um yeah. So there was a striving towards change, and we were beginning gay people were beginning to get sick of it, and [01:21:00] we're beginning to, and and we were beginning to hit back and the stonewall riot, the the word of that got around that we could, you know, we could defend ourselves. And as I said earlier, when I was chatting to you, I've been in a place where I saw it happen, you know, and, um and and as I said earlier, people like Geraldine And that that you know, you that they were, um, able to well and truly defend themselves. So we were starting to think Well, yeah. You know, you whack me, I'll whack you right [01:21:30] back. And and with society, we began to realise that we were actually in lots of positions throughout journalism. Um, the arts, um, the the the sciences and the professions. And why are we the needing to be, um, like this? Why do we have to be hiding ourselves? You know, and, um, we began to just like the women's lib movement. Feminist being said, Well, why do we have to take this position? [01:22:00] So when Fran Wilde stood and God bless her, she she championed it. And, oh, we'd had an openly lesbian member of Panama. Um uh, wearing, um and it was really wonderful. You know, She's the youngest member of parliament, and there she was as an outer, fully young lesbian. Well, look what they did to her through the press. You know, she was branded a hunting lesbians. Awful term. She was out to to take housewives away from their husbands [01:22:30] and families. It crazy, absolutely loony stuff. But that's what we just like we're seeing now in America the same rhetoric. Well, we went through all that, and then gradually Fran start to get a foothold properly, and it became obvious that it was it was going to happen. And it was really wonderful. It was really It was just such a relief. The homosexual law reform. And then when it went on further and we actually got legal rights in our relationships, [01:23:00] property rights, you know, um, that we had redress through the legal system. I mean, I had heard of gay fellas and long term relationships who had beautiful homes full of lovely things. Um, and one died and the family of the other one would come in and absolutely loot the place. And the remaining partner would come back from his funeral going through his grief from the funeral. [01:23:30] Go come back full of grief. And there was the family taking all the white wear and the jewellery and the the dog, even. Yes, that happened a lot. And so I think it's really good the way it is now. I mean, a lot of these gay men and women living together in those days, um, they accumulated a good life together, you know? And they worked hard and had lovely things around them. And it's awful to think that that [01:24:00] they had there was nothing legally they could do about it because their relationship was not recognised by law. In fact, it would be persecuted by law, persecuted. They had no right under law. Uh, and we are living in a very wonderful time. Now. We really are so for you personally before homosexual law reform, did you feel like a criminal? Did it have any impact on you? Um, you did, because you were you were [01:24:30] and your activity was, you know, illegal. Um, if if the police raided and caught two men in bed Well, you you went for it. Um, if two men, uh, were kissing in a bar holding hands showing affection, um, in a public place, um, and, heaven forbid, to be caught in a peace raid in a of a flat and and caught in bed together, um, very definitely. You would go for it. And I can remember in those days [01:25:00] and quite some notable people which whose names I won't mention they always had single beds in separate bedrooms. Even though they'd lived together as partners for many, many years, and their friends and guests never ever mentioned it. Oh, why do you not? You know, never. It was you did not go there because it was not safe to go there. So you you did what they called. Um, I had an old friend. He said you never give them the benefit of benefit of the doubt. Never give them the benefit of the doubt. Always [01:25:30] they know, but they don't know. And that's the way you played us. Yes. And of course, it wasn't just the the criminal aspect of it there was. Don't forget, homosexuality was considered a mental disorder, and it could be cured, you know? And, um ECT and, um, revulsion therapy. And, um, that that was practised in New Zealand. And I knew people, um, who had been hauled off, uh, at their parents [01:26:00] instigation, um, to lunatic asylum. That's putting it bluntly. And, um and they had been there and had received shock treatment and it and and all kinds of other special things to to cure them. I mean, Freudian theory. Freudian theory was based on it being an ear of neurosis. It was not normal under Freud, um, changed all that and, um, and [01:26:30] and others and and absolutely debunked all that argument from Eric from I thought he was wonderful. Um, but as I said earlier, you know, books are on on sexuality. Um, which were very popular state of homosexual. Homosexuality was an A of thing. It was just not normal. And it was it was twisted and bad. It didn't help to make you feel very good about yourself. But this, um, woman she was a professional woman, used to come into [01:27:00] the club bar. And, um, she always smoked a cigarette with a cigarette holder and quite a mysterious sort of, um, woman. And, um, she came out to me that she was a lesbian and lived in Brooklyn, and her partner came in with her once, and, um, she was lovely, and, uh, but she told me that she'd spent quite a period of her life, Um, early womanhood in being treated for her lesbianism. I just couldn't get over it. She'd had shock therapy [01:27:30] and everything, a very intelligent and well educated woman from a very good family. And of course, you know, the shame and horror of her daughter that was an obvious lesbian was just too much to bear. Oh, I had a friend that was hauled off in an aeroplane at Wellington Airport, and, um, she was going to go to Sydney, I think, Or Auckland, I can't remember. And, um, she was hauled off and taken away in a police car, and, uh, she was taken to her father, who was [01:28:00] a a GP. And, um, the family lawyer and one other person was involved in a professional nature. That's all it took to say that she was a lesbian and she needed to be helped. And it was out of her hands. She was as sane as you and I. But she went in there. She's yes, but the weird thing about it, Gareth was I. I found it subsequently. It was just a phase she was going through Anyway. She was full on into her lesbianism. But she's a married grandmother living in Sydney now, and that era is all behind [01:28:30] her. But And that's the way it works sometimes, you know. But yes, I was a very there was fear. There was fear. Yes, very much so. And so What was it like going through homosexual law reform in the mid eighties? Did you have much to do with it? I not actively. I didn't know. No, I didn't. I was very busy with my own business. Um, and, um, I had staff and and a business partner, and we were we we were working in [01:29:00] and hairdressing there, and, um, we were completely out, and it was fabulous. It was There was no problem at all. In fact, my business partner is closer friend of, um, Dana Demilo and had been working with Carmen closely. Um, and, um had turned his life around it were without turning it around, but just was now, actually, now in another phase of his life. And he's still working as a hairdresser in the city and doing very, very well. And, [01:29:30] um, so we we were very busy with that. And the activist side of it was more intellectual, like the university students were great. The university students, straight and gay, they were great. They saw this as a cause. Um, and yeah, I think a lot of gay people, really gay people were a bit frightened of really appearing on the marches. Um, you know, there were marches around the city, and I remember I've got [01:30:00] a friend now and he said he went on the march and he said he saw people he knew really well. Gay people on the sideline, not joining the march, just watching. And he said, Well, why aren't they up here? And he said he realised it was fear, and yet they were, um, not closer to homosexuals. They were gay guys. And no one is gay, but didn't really want to be up there. No. And that was one of the things that was a bit of a let down. Really? Um, even though I, as I said, [01:30:30] I wasn't actually out there marching either, but, um, to hear that sort of story, I thought, Well, that's yeah, they weren't all out there being brave and marching along, you know, Pigeon Parkway and down Mount Lampton. Yes. Yes. So did the passing of the law reform bill. Did that have any effect on you? Well, it was huge. It was just a sense of relief, you know, It was suddenly we weren't, [01:31:00] um, criminals, and we weren't, um, you know those things I mentioned earlier wouldn't happen anymore. It was funny. The place where our buddies, suddenly they were our buddies and they, um and they all faded away very quickly. It was like it disappeared overnight and you could walk along the street and not worry about being stopped by cops. And you knew you had representation and law. If you were beaten, you know, queer bashing sort of disappeared. [01:31:30] Um, it just stopped because young guys bashing up queers Well, that's what young guys should do too. Those perverts, they all stopped. And, um, yeah, there was. It was quite amazing, really. I, I think in New Zealand it's been a very, very interesting story. And I had friends visiting from Germany, for example. And they were amazed how easy it was to be homosexual in New Zealand. And that's from Germany, you know, in the in the late seventies, they said, you know, but because Germany [01:32:00] at that time had a very strong religious ethic too, you know, very, very Catholic in the South, very Protestant in the north still had that thing of the militarist background with the wars. Um so these grandsons and sons, it was sort of still a bit of a thing. You wouldn't go home and say to Mom and Dad. Guess what? I'm a you know, it didn't. Yeah. So New Zealand has been pretty good, and I think homosexual law reform and our champion, Fran [01:32:30] Wilde. And, um, yes, it was great. Really good. So then reflecting back on, say, your own family, were they, um, accepting when you were kind of fully out. So yes. Oh, yes, yes. So So you could talk about I could go home with my 28 inch green velvet flares with the silver studs and the and the platform boots with the high heels and the, um, the mad top and multiple [01:33:00] pierced earrings and black fingernails. Hair dyed absolutely mahogany red. Because I had hair then, um, and oh, and of course, John English. You know, the, um, rock star the, uh the coal around the eyes. Um, because, you know, bisexuality was very fashionable. We had the phenomenon of Ziggy Stardust and, you know, spiders from Mars and the whole drama Alice Cooper. Um, you know, it was fashionable to be bisexual or ABIs or [01:33:30] who cared, You know, it didn't really matter anymore. You know. And I guess this kind of leads into your your marriage in 87. So, a year after law reform, you're you're getting married? Yes. Well, as I said earlier, I, um I used to always go out with women and and for fun, you know, and I hadn't. I I'm still got my closest friends are mainly women. Um, heterosexual women. Um, I have gay lady friends, of [01:34:00] course, as well, but well, probably I can't really say that because I've got some real close male friends that are, you know, out sticking pigs. Probably at this moment, Um, in the bush, I mean, but anyway, um, yeah, And with this particular woman, um, we used to see a lot of each other and then one particular evening, I. I told her that that I was a bit frightened of the way it was going that, um I sort of wanted to sort of be more [01:34:30] than just friends, but I wasn't sure that a I was physically up to it. You know, at the end of the day, this was going to be a very new and novel experience for me leaping into bed with a woman um, and she was really great and very supportive and very caring about it and reassured me, and she I can handle it either way. You know, if it doesn't work out, we we're still friends, and and so we lived together for three years. We we did it all formally. We got formally engaged. We [01:35:00] were engaged for two years, um, and had an engagement party. And then we had a formal, proper wedding out at, um, Wallace house. We, um, ended up living in, um, we were there for 16 years, and then yes, things wound down, and it was obvious that we were both ready for a change. So I, um, came out of that at age 56 and two years later, after struggling with a mortgage on my own and the [01:35:30] whole debacle, um, I through the dinner set in the air and went working as a hairdresser on the international cruise ship circuit at age 58. And, um, in the Northern Hemisphere and for 2.5, nearly three years I did that. And in between contracts, I would do freedom. Travelling, camping, uh, yes, camping freedom, travelling around Europe. So I was able to go back to London, Um, which I left in 1969. Um, between going back from, you know, returning from Spain [01:36:00] to New Zealand, I was able to revisit Barcelona. Look up, old friends. I found one of my old employers now aged 93 friends I had worked with, It was abs. I just turned up on their doorstep totally unannounced. After 35 years. It was incredible. Um, and it was one. And it was amazing how I could still speak Spanish, you know? And, um and, yeah, meet their meet their wives and the whole drama. Yeah, it was great. [01:36:30] Really wonderful. Um, and I came back to New Zealand and settled down again in 20 08. 20. 09. Yeah. So, yeah, it was marvellous. Great. Great experience. So what was it like being in a marriage and in a in a kind of a more hetero Yes, a gay man in a heterosexual marriage. Hm? Well, when I first, um, started [01:37:00] going out with her as a friend, um, everyone no one better. Because I was always turning up at parties and dinners and that with a lady friend and, um, and great, you know, and I had friends that were straight and gay and everything else in between married and single. Um, and I had a very extensive social life. I've always been very social and enjoyed it. Um, So when they first meet her, um, everyone was great. And then they began to perceive, you know, that I was sitting [01:37:30] with her in the evening, like, throughout the evening on the sofa, or I would dance with her and slow dance with her, um, which, you know, we did in those days. And then they began to realise that it's not just one of John's friends, and so I started to announce that you know that, Yeah, We're actually living together, and, you know, we've done it, and, um, I got some amazing reactions. [01:38:00] Some of my gay friends were really disgusted with me. It was like I had gone over to the other side. I you know, we Oh, So you're not gay now? You're not one of us anymore. And I said, no, I'm still gay. Well, then why are you with her, and really very stridently anti it and and really start to be horrible to her, too, So I'd stopped seeing them. That was the end of those friends. And they were really good friendships. Lots of fun. Um, and I just [01:38:30] realised that they really couldn't handle John now that he was straight. I wasn't straight. I just I was a gay man. That just happened to be in a heterosexual relationship. But I still was a gay man and I wasn't being actively gay. I was in a monogamous, loving relationship. Some of the straight friends, Garrett. They too, especially some of the women and the wives, very betrayed. Felt that I had all these years being deceptive [01:39:00] and deceiving and falsely presenting myself that I was really had been always perhaps heterosexual, but was covering it with us gay facade. And so many of these have been close friends. And we would go out together and their husbands would stay at home looking after the Children. We'd go to a movie. We'd go to an art exhibition together, the husbands absolutely trusting. This is so and so's gay friend John. This is fine. Suddenly [01:39:30] Oh, wow. So those friendships, they ended them? Yes, some of them, very angrily. What are you trying to prove you don't have to prove anything. You're making a mistake. You know, um, why do you feel you need to do this, You know, be true to yourself. And so yeah, and, um, but then there were the others who just didn't blink. They saw [01:40:00] that we were happy. They saw that I had found something special. And they were They came and celebrated it with us. And, you know, by attending our wedding and and sharing our joys and our sorrows, we had various miscarriages happen. They were great, and, um and we're still friends to this day, but there are those that to this day, those of them that are alive still that I somehow it was like I'd gone mad. Yes. Yes. [01:40:30] And, um so I had reverse discrimination. Now I've been discriminated against for being gay. Now it's been discriminated against for going straight, Which I wasn't, of course, but yeah. And, um, that's where I found that the Queens the Donna of this world and Dion Gypsy didn't blink When I presented my wife to them first time up. They [01:41:00] they were very nice. Hm. So I found an acceptance there. Yes.
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