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I had no idea what I wanted to do when I was at college, and I was not a good student. Um, I found college boring. Um, I was copying a lot of name calling. Um, I didn't really mind it. Um, but, uh, I used to get into a lot of physical fights, Uh, with boys, uh, picking on me and that. And of course, I had learned to retaliate physically having two older brothers. I knew how to look after myself. And so I was constantly getting into fights and getting into trouble to be hauled up. And of course, um, you know, you'd get [00:00:30] the cane and all that sort of thing Corporal punishment. And I was getting the cane probably most days at school, either for disruptive behaviour in class, because I was an attention grabber, but also, um, just, you know, fidgeting and talking and and carrying on. I was just bored senseless with it. And, um, I had had exams at school, and they telephoned my mother, and they said, Mrs Cameron, we really don't want him back next year. He's just [00:01:00] he's wasting his own time and hours, and he's Yeah, you need to think seriously about what he's going to be doing. And what year was this? Um, that would have been 1963. Yes. And what kind of names were the kids calling you Queenie? Mostly, um, you got all the usual ones, you know, like being called Stuart. I was called stew Pot and stew ball. I didn't mind those. Those sort of that was what you did in those days. But, Queenie, I didn't [00:01:30] really mind it. Uh, until one day I realised that some of my friends and in my class and it was an all male class because I wasn't a good academic academic achiever. I was put into what's called an in an industrial, um course. So woodwork and carpentry and horticulture and technical drawing and all the things that I absolutely loathed I would have liked to have done art and languages and music and all sorts of other interesting things. One of the boys actually said to me, um, why did your parents [00:02:00] call you Queenie? That just changed name for a boy. Because usually it was a Maori girl's name. And, um, I said, it's not It's Stuart. And I mean, we had been at college together, right from the third form, and he never he never knew that. Um, And then when teachers sometimes called me it, um, that gave licence to some of the bully boys then to really, um, you know, whack at you in break time and things like that because I felt well, you know, it's [00:02:30] it's Condoned. And the other thing was, um, rugby. Everyone had to play rugby. And at Newtown School primary school, I loved rugby. We used to play rugby a lot, and I enjoyed rugby. I'm from a rugby, rugby playing family. My parents are crazy about rugby, and my both my brothers and everybody way back. And so, um, when I got to the teachers there had a different attitude to rugby. If you didn't perform well in the classroom, [00:03:00] they'd be the same person, would be taking you for rugby. And so they would carry over that frustration they felt for you. Um, and I was naturally very self evident. I mean, I had always been a city, um, boy and a and a high voice, and I had to had elocution training, so I did stick out a bit Um, And also, if you didn't perform well on the field, they carried it back into the classroom. Conversely, I went home to Mom and I said, I hate I'm hating [00:03:30] rugby. I want to stop playing rugby And she said, Well, that's a shame Me who loved it and everything. So she went down to see them, and, uh, she just had a meeting with the teacher and she said, Look, you know, he always loved his rugby. And at Newtown, I thought he had a lot of potential and because it was strong and quick and, um, he, uh, was very, very assailed by that A. You know, don't forget. This was in the late 19 fifties and she was a woman and he was a man and [00:04:00] an academic, and she was a seamstress. So you know, Taylor. So that was sort of thing was in the background there. Well, the very next morning, he told the whole class in front of me before morning talks that Cameron's mother came down to say, and everybody then, of course, had licence to laugh their heads off and a lot of mocking. And then when we had footie that afternoon. Um, he made me the principal catcher in the line out, and I ended up being absolutely scragg. And [00:04:30] I decided that was it. And yeah. So, anyway, school was not a very good experience. And going back to why, you know, I started on hairdressing. I came home and she said to me that they're absolutely sick of you and they don't want you back. And I and she you've got to think about what you're going to do with your life and I said no And she said, Well, um, working at her sewing machine as she did, she was an art work at Taylor. She said, Um, I've been listening to Doreen's Woman's Hour and Doreen [00:05:00] Kelso and, um, she'd been down to a hairdressing academy in Lower Cuba Street Continental Hairdressing Academy. It was run by European Jews. A lot of them had been used to a very good lifestyle pre the war, and there were people of refinement, a lot of them, and they'd had a terrible time. They had tattoos on their wrists from the camps, and, um, you could see that they had been marked by that. But also [00:05:30] here they were suddenly in New Zealand and I mean an absolute backwater. In those days, it was, like, ghastly and no culture for those sort of people. And they've been used to Vienna or Warsaw or wherever they were. And, um, So anyway, she said to me, My mother, um, I'm gonna give you one and six and you take the unit into Wellington and you go to interview them and I said, Oh, Mum, I said, People are giving me a hard enough time about you know how I am And, [00:06:00] um, you know, it's gonna be terrible. And she said, No, Well, you know, um, go and see about it She said, You do enjoy women's company and you love being around women's chat. And she said, And I think with your elocution background, you'll be very presentable. And she said, You've done my hair all your life and I did. I used to do mad little wonky things on her hair, and, um, she then would do me a manicure. I'd put my hair in rollers and I'd go to school the next morning, [00:06:30] and that was an eye opener, and, um so Mom kind of cultivated that in me. And I think it was from what we alluded to last time that in her family, there had always been theatrical people. And, um so I went into town, did the interview, and, um, came back. And, um, my parents put up the 80 Guineas, uh, for the six month course, and she also told me that we would be moving back to Wellington. They decided that South [00:07:00] was great, but back to Wellington. And, uh, Dad had ran run for parliament and had lost out. And I had left a real man. He took it very personally. He saw it as a personal rejection rather than voter apathy. Which it was, uh, Tom Cameron. And, um, it was a labour ticket, and he was running against, um Oh, what was his name? McCreedy. Later, Minister of Police, I think, um, who was from an old, you [00:07:30] know, horror funeral family and had all the pedigree, you know, And what have you where his dad was a really working class labour man and and drove the local rubbish truck. Um, at that stage, he had been a watchmaker and jeweller, but he was yes. What eventually ended up there So what other occupations? Um, were you thinking of as a as a teenager? Did you have any other dreams In terms of what you wanted to do? I would have loved to have been a farmer. [00:08:00] I would have loved to go on farming. I would have made a good farmer. I love animal husbandry. Um, and I like working with stock. Um, I also was mad on chickens. That's my hobby. I used to keep little bantams as pets, but it got more and more and more. And I got very, very involved in, um, poultry. Um, even as a little kid And, um, I'd visit people's homes to see their FS, and they'd ask me questions about them and I'd read it all up. Mom and Dad had bought me books, and, [00:08:30] um, I thought I might be a poultry farmer. And, um, I even got a job actually, at a poultry farm up at, and I used to get 10 shillings a day for that, and mostly it was shovelling manure into sex. But we you know, we had to collect eggs and, um, help him with shifting fowls and all that sort of thing and I actually really loved that. He was a Dutchman and new with his young wife. And, um, I think he's still up there. Poultry farming, Quite [00:09:00] elderly. Now, Um, but yes. So Mum said to me, you know that now the farming really wasn't an option. And, um, you'd have to have money to buy the land. And what have you So for them to put up the for me to do the hairdressing course was really quite a thing. I worked at nights cleaning offices to pay them back while I was doing the course, And, um, so that, you know, by the time I'd finished, I paid them off. And, um, I remember, um, a lot of the students [00:09:30] of the programme. They were mostly girls, but there are a couple of Jewish fellas. It had always been a very good job for Jewish men because they have the background, you see, working with the public and and the money to set up a shop. And, of course, their parents would have been in the service industries as well. And, uh, would know exactly what was the right thing to do. And, um, I remember this Dutchman came down. Do [00:10:00] as we called him. Um, he turned up at the at the academy and he told them he was looking for a boy as a trainee in, and they said to him that I'd be just right for him. So I worked for, um, in, um until from 1964 through to 1967. But prior to that, while I was still doing the hairdressing course, we were still living in south [00:10:30] on a Saturday, A school? Uh, an old bus would come by, um, at certain spots. It would pick people up to take them up to beach to the Picture theatre, local Picture Theatre. And of course, it was quite a social social thing. The bus lots of laughter and talking and floating and carrying on. And, um, there's always a lot of excitement. But everyone had heard that I had done it start to do hairdressing. And there was a girl on the bus, [00:11:00] and she was, um, quite a low Lita. She was, and, um, she'd been doing hairdressing on Lampton Quay, so she'd heard, and she got me to sit by her, and she was talking to me about hairdressing and what they were doing at the salon. And where did I think I'd be working? So by the time I got off, everyone was sort of a little bit. Hm? I wonder what that was all about. And I had been outside the picture theatre with the other young fellas and horsing [00:11:30] around and carrying on as he did in those days and a bit of banter. And when I walked into the picture theatre, someone yelled out, Look at old Queenie. He's a bloody hairdresser and everybody titted and laughed, and I just I just carried on, you know, I was used to that, but I went home and I said to Mum, I've I'm over it. And that's when she actually really Then I think it was Yeah, we're we're moving out. We'll go back. [00:12:00] And so for them, it was a big thing. They lost all their friends and everything, and they started again in Dad got a job up at the, um, reservoir there. So there was a house going with the job, so it was perfect for me. I could walk up the hill to and, uh, birdwood street every day and walk back down you think about it now, it would kill me. But, um yeah, so that's how I got into hair dressing. And, um and as my mother said to me, she [00:12:30] said, It's a job which can take you anywhere, and you can work anywhere in the world and travel, you know, was a big thing. So I met, um, a guy who lived on the terrace. He was a well known person because of age, I suppose, because he was a black man and black men just didn't exist in Wellington at the time. Really? And his name was Johnny Chico and he was studying accountancy, [00:13:00] accountancy at Victoria University. He and I, as I said, I had to work at nights to pay off the course and then also I worked at nights because I wanted to have enough money quickly to leave New Zealand. I decided I wanted out. I wanted to get to London and or Germany. I didn't mind which, but I wanted out. So I had this wonderful job at the, uh, White Heron restaurant out in at the Mermaid restaurant. It was called in the White [00:13:30] Heron Motor Lodge, and Johnny was a kitchen hand there with me. So we got to really know each other, and I'm really quite fascinated with him. He was from Rhodesia, and he came out on what was called the Colombo Plan, which was an agreement to exchange students between, um Commonwealth Countries. And of course, in those days, Zimbabwe was Rhodesia. And, um I think really, what drew us together was that II I was doing the hairdressing, and I'd come in for a bit of street bullying, [00:14:00] you know? And as I think I told you last time guys elbowing you, shouldering you off the pavement and yelling things and that because I'd be out with the hairdressing girls and I looked a bit sissy. Johnny, Um, because being black, um, I don't think he really came in for what you'd call racial discrimination, But it was very hard for him to make friends. And because we had met uh, working in the restaurant, we used to have to spend a lot of time together, and he was a great mate. Um, and he really [00:14:30] opened my eyes to this other world beyond New Zealand, you know, even though he had come virtually from the then Rhodesia to New Zealand. He said, There's another world out there, and I think this is something that you should aim for. And, um, so really? And he and I corresponded the entire time that I was away overseas, and I was away for about seven years, and, um, it was just so thrilling to come back and meet up with him again. Now, of course. You know, nearly [00:15:00] 30. And I was in my late twenties. Um, no, it was a great friendship, but yes, Um, I, I really feel that for me, hairdressing was the perfect choice as a career, and it served me very well. Can you tell me about, uh, what you were taught at the academy? Yes. Well, of course, the hairdressers that were training us. Um, I still remember them. Um, they, of course, apart from the continental trainers that we had, uh, Mrs [00:15:30] Gluck and, uh, one or two others. Um, we also had, um uh he was a really lovely fellow. He was, um, an older man. And, um, he had two lovely daughters, and, um, he had obviously been a highly skilled hairdresser in his day. And Mrs Knight And what they? They had been training, of course, in the thirties, forties and fifties, because they were they weren't young people. And, um, so they had a wealth of skills. And when [00:16:00] I look back on it, um, of course we were, you know, 1964. Hairdressing was really taking off with the whole change that was coming in with Beatlemania. Um, Mary Quant Vidal Sassoon. Um, the beehives, um, back combing and teasing the They're very extreme hairdressing. I mean, we were going back to hairstyles, which had their foundation in that period of Murray on to an I mean, the makeup as well. You know, false, [00:16:30] um, beauty spots and, um, eyelashes, false eyelashes, the very pale foundation makeup, um, the coral, pink and white lipsticks, Um, and the eyeliner, Um and of course, um, you know, the guys were now wearing the the the stove pipe trousers, and it was in the Beatles style. He, um they taught us wonderful skills, um, and skills that were very relevant to them. [00:17:00] So when we left that course, we had learned everything we needed to know to be competent hairdressers and really all we got was a polishing up by the employer. Uh, so virtually you were earning money immediately for your employer. Um, and although there was, uh, a very strict period of trainee in the salons, there wasn't an actual apprenticeship. The apprenticeship was established in, I think, the early seventies. So I I didn't actually do an apprenticeship [00:17:30] of hairdressing. Um, in many ways, I think they served us better doing those six month courses than what the students now have currently with the year long and two year long hairdressing courses. Because I feel that students need to young, um, hairdressers need to get out into the real world of hairdressing smartly so that they are moulded to that environment not as students in the school or academy, because [00:18:00] they pick up unfortunately, bad attitudes and habits. And it makes it very hard then for a hairdresser employer to break those habits and train them to Well, now you're actually in the real world of hairdressing, and it's a whole different ball game. I'm not your tutor. I'm your employer. So what I say goes, Whereas when they've been working under the supervision of tutors, it's a whole different, uh, ethos. So what were the hairstyles that you were doing [00:18:30] in the sixties in Well, we were doing an awful lot of the, um, with the regular clients, a lot of the, um, standard weekly shampoo and set. I mean, every woman who had, uh, any money at all would have her hair done every week. And mostly, um, we she we would be the only people who would shampoo it for her because the hairdos were quite different. So ladies didn't wash her hair every day like they do now. They went and had it set, washed and set, [00:19:00] um, meaning put rollers. While the hair was wet and dried under a great big dryer, they were taken out of the dryer. Rollers were removed after they had cooled, and the hair was brushed vigorously to break up all the roller partings and then brushed into the line of the actual style where the rollers had been placed. The rollers were placed always in, um, formation to create the desired style outcomes. He didn't just plonk [00:19:30] and curless willy nilly. You actually followed a pattern. Strict pattern. And, um then, um uh, after the brushing into the line of the style, if they wanted and mostly did you back combed it, meaning that the hair was knotted at its root base in large pieces to provide a padding for you to smooth the front hair over. So you couldn't see the back combed or knotted here. But it gave that volume and height. And you know, you may well have photos [00:20:00] of your own, um, Nana in her day with a great big hair do. And that's how that we did it that was sprayed liberally to hold it in place. Um, they would have a satin pillow to sleep on so that the hair didn't shift around as it would on a cotton pillow. They would wear nets over their hair. Or they would wrap their hair in a silk scarf so that when they woke up in the morning, they literally just skimmed it lightly over with the little comb or little comb brush and poked and prodded at it to [00:20:30] get the volume right. Sprayed it again and off they went, Um, and of course, today we think, oh, washing your hair only once a week. Well, actually, we probably today over wash our hair. We don't allow hair time to actually be conditioned by the natural oils. And, um, of course, today we're sort of a bit over about that sort of thing. But in human history, it wasn't always so, um, we did those Those are the standard, you know, matrons, [00:21:00] the the housewives, Um, that we did a lot of perming. Everyone had perms and just about everybody. Um, so, uh, as well as spending, um, her 15 shillings or whatever It was a week on a shampoo set. She also paid 6 to 8 Guineas every 10 weeks for a perm. And, of course, they also had colours and quite extreme colours as well, because it was the sixties, and so hairdressing was a very profitable [00:21:30] business. My boss's wife had some beautiful fur coats and the manufacturing jewellers in Lampton Quay. They learned to welcome her. When she walked in the door, there was money, and it was hardly profitable. I was being paid £7.02 and six a week. No. Five Guineas. Sorry. I was being paid five Guineas, which is 20 shillings and 1, um, 21 shillings, 20 shillings to the pound. [00:22:00] So I was being paid five Guineas. Um, and of course, when you think I was probably doing three or four poms a day at 6 to 8 Guineas each he was and then shampooing set and cutting and doing all sorts of other things too. It was hugely profitable hugely. Um, and that's why I had a, uh, a night job. I could get £7.02 and six a week washing dishes. And so by the time I was 20 I had probably about £3500 in the bank, which was a lot [00:22:30] of money. I could have bought a house in in road for that then that not being a very fashionable area in those days. What about the, uh, male haircuts of the time men would never see be seen dead anywhere near a lady's hairdressing salon? The girls that I worked with always had boyfriends, Plenty of them because they were, you know, the girls knew how to do themselves up and not quite glamorous. So to, uh for a guy to be dating a lady's hairdresser girl, well, [00:23:00] you know, she'll be turning heads. As he walked down the street, the guys would wait outside and they would walk around on the pavement, not looking like they were looking in the hairdressing salon. Um, even if her husband came to collect to his wife, he would wait outside. It was just like I wouldn't be seen dead going in or out of the place. Um and then all of a sudden, in the 19 seventies, they deserved Developed a concept of what's called unisex hairdressing. [00:23:30] Barbering had gone down, the quite literally, the young guys all wanted longer hair. The barbers went up to doing it. If the young guys wanted a trim or a style, they were just just likely to get massacred by a barber because the barbers were trained in Clipper work from the fifties and further back. So they really went up to doing that. So the the hairdressers decided, Well, there's an opening here. So they started to, uh, brand themselves as unisex, [00:24:00] meaning both. And all of a sudden it caught on. And I tell you what. It was a boom time, and the guys spent money on their hair. Um, you know, and they'd come in, have it shampooed, um, cut and styled and dried off a bit and off they'd go. But some of them would have a few, um, blonde bits put in. And these are straight guys, too. Um, it became acceptable to have that beach boy look, um, so we would use what's called the old streaking cap on them and pull through a few [00:24:30] streaks and bleach them up. So the boys looked like they'd been out in the sun for a few weeks. Um, and they'd come in with their girlfriends at the same time. And then, of course, the eighties big hair perming caught on. So we had the guys being permed and that for hairdressing salons, the Perming salon was a wealthy salon. There was a lot of money in it, and, um, it's some of the guys looked [00:25:00] amazing with a bit of a curl. I mean, there were disasters, but a lot of them, you know, they wanted that sort of cat Stevens kind of look and yeah, they look great. Um, you know, suddenly they look like Charles the first or someone you know of England. Ringlet curls all over it. It looked great, and it wasn't considered effeminate or anything. At the time, it was considered Well, that's what guys do, but there is the famous story, isn't there? Where a sports commentator who I shall not name, suddenly appeared on television on his usual Saturday [00:25:30] night programme to discuss the rugby of the day. People like my father would be all be watching that and he'd had his hair permed and it was a disaster. He just didn't look right with it, just didn't look right at all. And, you know, overnight it killed the male perming industry. It just stopped just like that. That was the end of that. And kiss that goodbye. They've been such a wonderful form of income because you did all kinds of perms on them they didn't want just ring little curls, and they sometimes [00:26:00] they wanted real Afros. You know, I mean, talking here about the big Afro here, Um, and it looked good on some of the Maori guys. A lot of them and also on the guys. And then some just wanted a bit of volume to make their hair look a bit thicker. So just like women, Did you know it was considered normal for a while there, I think, um, it may 1 day come back. Who knows? But I don't. I don't know. The hairdressers don't seem to be behind that. No, they don't seem to really want to revive [00:26:30] the perming craze. So back in the early sixties, when it it it was, um, you know, AAA female salon. How were you treated as a gay man in that environment? Um, I did come in for some derision. Um, from some women, Um, they'd come to the salon and see, uh, me there, uh, working. And they'd make comments to the headdress about Oh, what's he doing in here? And how ridiculous. And what he needs is a good game [00:27:00] of rugby. And I bet he does ballet and his part time and those sort of comments. Um, I found with those sort of people, you just would be exquisitely polite and caring, and they would get the message. Um, but mostly I found the better educated women and certainly the more worldly women. I thought it was marvellous and were very encouraging and would let me do the hair, even though I didn't [00:27:30] do it as well as my employer. They would say, I don't mind if Stuart does my hair. And for Mr that was great. because he could offload clients on to me. And that's how I started to get my clean to really. And, um, I could still remember those ladies, Um, to this day, you know, 50 odd years later and think, Well, gosh, you know, I owe them. And one day, um, because being in, we were close to the, um, the British Consulate, Homewood. [00:28:00] And they would host, um, dignitaries from England because the, um, the alliance between New Zealand in military, uh, was much stronger then with Britain, and so many of the naval people and military people who came up from Britain would be hosted at Homewood. Um, and, of course, would be liaising with their counter New Zealand counterparts. And, um, so one day I was there and and I saw this very dignified looking man walking down the road, [00:28:30] and I realised it was Lord Louis Mount Batten. Anyway, about an hour later, I get a phone call from Lady McLennan at the, uh at Homewood, and she said, Look, we've got Lady Pamela here, Lord Louis's daughter, and she said, um, she's very particular, and she wants her hair washed and set, and I had to trim it, too. Can't remember. Anyway, that was my introduction to dealing with aristocracy, [00:29:00] and I realised it was this other class of person. It wasn't that she was, um, snobby or or anything else. She was just used to a different kind of relationship with serving people and, um, sort of shades of Downton Abbey, I suppose, in a way. And she was so impressed with her hair that she made mention of me to a lady Grandy. That's a name and a half, isn't it? Her husband was, um, very, [00:29:30] very high up in the Admiralty in England anyway, lo and behold, he came out with her and we got a phone call again from Lady McLean, and she said You'll be required to clear the sun on. She said, There, there can't be other ladies in there. So Dolf said, Well, that's all right. Let him clean. And you've got a quiet afternoon and I can telephone some of the people and put them off. But, um, Lady Grandy would need to be here at one o'clock, she said, when she walks in the door, stand at attention and just nod [00:30:00] your head before and don't speak to her until she speaks to you. But Wow. So anyway, he said to me, You can do her here because he was a real Dutchman. He did not fall in for that bullshit. I mean, he was from a very humble background and not Rotterdam. And his mother used to sell herrings off a tray around the streets of Rotterdam. You know, it was a Cockney, really, a Dutch version of a Cockney. So he wasn't gonna have truck with that because I was dying to terrified as well. [00:30:30] She turned up and she had a she held up to to look at us and her hair was up and a sort of a bun on top of her head, very high collar. And she was about 6 ft two, very slim and skinny, but and quite an older woman. And she was formidable. You could tell. And so, um, I attended to her, and during the process, um, she told me about her sons and their military. Um, one was in Egypt. There was a big drama [00:31:00] going on there, and, um, she said to me that she would would get her hair done. A knights bridge and I said to her, Well, I wanted to go to London and that I would be looking for a job. She said, Would you like a letter of introduction? I said I would, My lady, I said I'd be very, very grateful. I said. Then I shall send you a letter from Britain and it will be a letter of introduction to Valentino and readers in Road Knights Bridge. I said, Well, thank you very much. It's very gracious of you. And [00:31:30] I went home and Mom said, Yes, this is perfect. She said, Oh, I do hope she writes back. Well, she did. Lady McLean brought the letter down herself. And so I, um, wrote a letter to them in London and, um, to, uh, Valentino and Rita and I said that that was the name of the business. It was a a court appointed hairdressing. So we had the the royal court emblem above the door. There was a butler, um, two [00:32:00] receptionists. There was a resident, uh, housemaid. She served the ladies while they were under the dryer. We had a full time cook. She prepared little salads and club sandwiches. Um, we had a boy who was a runner, boy, he could fly out up Brompton Road to the nearest bar and bring back, um, alcoholic refreshment. Should they want one under the Yes, you know, come flying down the road, uh, with a little tray with a glass on it with the the double gin and ice for my lady. And, [00:32:30] um, I wrote to them and they said We will be pleased to meet you. What I hadn't realised was that titles and names really go in England, and they still do. It was astounding how, nearly 40 years later, when I went to work on cruise ships at age 58 and I mean, I stopped working for Valentino and Rita when I was 21. Um, that presenting their, [00:33:00] um, reference and just the mention of them, even though they didn't even know that was enough that I'd worked in a quarter pointed hairdressers. That was enough. Even 40 years later, they were They knew I'd be right for attending to that class of people that they that are on the more exclusive cruise ships, the ones where there's only about 304 100 passengers with a caring staff of about 500 [00:33:30] I had to share a cabin with one of the butlers. Um, it was a great adventure, but yes, it that's how I came to, um, get into the hairdressing. And and as I said, by the time I was 20 I turned 20 in April, and in the October I sailed on the cast Felice for London. And, uh, yeah, And what was that, like leaving New Zealand for the first time. I really had a strong spiritual love for my country. [00:34:00] I I remember we sailed out of Auckland. I had to fly to Auckland and, um, get to the wharf. It was all quite frightening, you know, It was, you know, take a bus into town and find the wharf, and you sort of terrified You're gonna miss the boat and all that carry on. And, um, we we were sailing out of Auckland and I remember looking back and I didn't know Auckland. I'd only been there once before, but it was New Zealand and we were going past the islands [00:34:30] of the Gulf and passed and out towards the ocean. And I keep thinking I may never come back. I may never come back. And that's how I felt, too. I didn't want to, actually, And, um, I thought I would stay away forever if I could. I was over it. You know, it just that I I wanted more out of life, and there's been a lot of New Zealanders before me who felt the same. And I felt I could get recognition in overseas. I never made it big, but I had a damn good [00:35:00] time, you know? And it was wonderful for me and very, very enriching. Um, so the cruise ship, the cruise ship the the passenger ship, of course, was its own little floating island of humanity. We were all mostly, um, young people going on a working holiday. So it was a hell of a lot of boozing and shagging going on and shipboard romances and tantrums and heartbreaks and all the usual things that happen between young people who are totally unsupervised. Um, many [00:35:30] of us had never been away from home before in our lives. I mean, the the six week, um, sailing to Europe was the like, a huge for a lot of them myself. Um, I was not at ease with my gayness. even though I was very self evident, I still didn't really want to really say yes. That's what I am. I mean, the word gay wasn't really bended around. You would have to say Yes, I'm a homo, And that would be that was it. So I at first to keep myself to myself pretty well. I [00:36:00] was hit on by quite a few of the crew. They were Italians. And, um, I would sort of be, um I was fascinated and titillated and terrified. Um, and, of course, a few of the guys, too. Um, you know, some of them from from the Outback of Australia and whatever. And like I told you, you know, about the first World War episode. We were all thrown together, and they were looking for a mate and, um, quite keen on the lady to dress a boy and, um, had a few of those little, um, [00:36:30] sort of things too. But unfortunately, Gareth, I never followed through on it. And now I could kick myself all those wonderful adventures that I could have had. Um, but I made some great friends. And when by the time we got to London, uh, we booed in Southampton. We disembarked in Southampton and went on the train up to Waterloo. Um, I quickly liaised with some of the boys from the ship, and, uh, we ended up, you know, in, um in rooms [00:37:00] and sharing digs. It was great. It really was wonderful. So what was London like in 1967? Um, England swings like a pendulum do. It was absolutely rocking. I mean, we were at the height of Beatlemania, but then it was Donovan. It was black, Dusty Springfield, Marianne Faithful. Or it was Sandy Shore. It was just absolutely thumping. And you saw because I was working in hands road Knightsbridge. [00:37:30] So you walked down from the Piccadilly underground along Brompton Road and even in in in at that early time of the morning, you saw people who just looked amazing, you know, beautiful coats and clothing, you know, And the West end, um, after work. Sometimes myself and my coworkers, they were girls. Um, we would go down Sloan Square, and, um, of course you saw the you know, the the of young upper class people that would be drinking in the fashionable [00:38:00] bars of Kings Road. And sometimes we would go into a bar and the Rolling Stones would be just be leaving or, um, yes. Or you'd go into a men's a menswear shop and there'd be someone, you know. And you think, Oh, gosh, So and so And they were buying clothing where we worked. Um, we opened out onto the side entrance of Harrod's and because it was more discreet. That's where personages would arrive in their chauffeured cars. The chauffeur would pull [00:38:30] up, leap out, open up the back door, and Princess Margaret or Mary Anne faithful, or someone would dart in the side entrance of Harrods and go straight through to the food hall. Um, they would all be prepped. They were arriving. And so you saw a a fascinating side. It was It was very, very yes. Marvellous. One of my roommates, um, I ended up sharing a bed. Sit with him. Um, he got to know he was gay. [00:39:00] But, you know, we never, ever talked about it. We lived together for about two or three months or more. We never actually said, you know, do you think you might be gay and discuss it? We never. But he, um He worked um, in one of the tailoring manufacturers, Um uh, in London, Um, gourmet suits. I think it was. And he was doing a trainee ship there. And, um, he got to know guys from the BBC, and I now know why BBC [00:39:30] is called Auntie. It was one of the campus places you could ever imagine. He came back from a party one night, and he told me he'd been had a few drinks with Sherlock Holmes. It was the actor who played Sherlock Holmes or whatever. And, um, yes, um, I never got into that. It terrified the the thought of it terrified the wits out of me. I don't think I felt I had the confidence. Now I think, Gosh, I would have loved it. It would be just so interesting and so fascinating. Yeah, that's a little sideline, [00:40:00] but, you know, going up Carnaby Street, um, buying your clothes. Um, you know, there was a an upstairs in the attic, actually, of Harrods. They opened it up and made it to a young person's clothing. Um, outlet. And it was catering to the Sloan Rangers to the upper class, but because they'd have sales periodically. And you could get amazing clothing. And, of course, they were dressing people like the Rolling Stones and And what [00:40:30] have you so that it was, um it was a fascinating time in London. I loved it, but by the time I'd been there 18 months, I really wanted to go somewhere else. And I've been thinking about going to a northern city. Um, but of course, everyone in London when you discussed that would go. Oh, no, you don't want to go to York. And you don't want to go to places like that because they sort of thought, Oh, that would be horrible. And, um So I started to look towards, um, going to Spain [00:41:00] before we get to Spain. Can you just tell me? So did your letter of introduction Was that basically as good as a job offer? Oh, yes, it was. Yes, it was. Yes. She never came to the salon when I was there. She never once came. I always think I wonder if she'll turn up one day. She never did. Not once she probably lives somewhere in the country. You see, she live on she would live on an A state. She probably only would have come up to London for shows and things like that. But she was an older [00:41:30] woman, so she probably didn't bother with much with that, you know now, but but it is no doubt about it. That was like they employed me unseen, basically, just on the strength of this aristocratic woman's, uh, women. Really? Yes. And was the work that you were doing in the same as what you were doing in London? No. No, um, I owe a lot to that lady Grandy. Actually, [00:42:00] she she really did. She she put herself out there for me? No, The people I worked for in London were very elderly. Mr Valentino, as we called him. His real name was Jim Perry. Penny Jim Penny. He was an Anglo Indian. A very handsome, older man. Very, very handsome. He and Miss had been married for many, many, many, many years. She had been one of London's sort of beauties, but she wasn't of the upper class, [00:42:30] but she attended to them as a beautician and facialist. So she had an insight into all the gossip that was going on around the abdication. So they talked about the education as if it happened yesterday, that woman and what she had done to the royal family and poor Queen Mary, you know, and to them, it was just like it was still happening. That was the era. So she was doing facials and treatments, which she made up herself. She was quite a little, you know, chemist [00:43:00] in her own. Right. Um, I think she was a Belgium origin French Belgium origin originally. So she had a little bit of a flair there, you know, And, um, obviously that she was held in very high regard. So she while she had them lying on her table or bench, um, she would hear all the news. And, you know, like in the song, you know, I danced with a, uh, a woman who danced with the dance with the Prince of Wales. You know the song. I can't [00:43:30] remember it now. It was literally like that. And I mean, they knew that the abdication was coming before it actually came. They were on the inside. They were hearing it. So the hairdressing they were doing, they were still doing clients from the thirties and forties and a certain type of English lady does not change with fashion. She still has her hair done as she always had it done and the same style of makeup. So for me, it was like sometimes I was seeing people that looked like [00:44:00] Egyptian mummy, they they kind of never had changed. And, um, they were still coming to the same hairdresser and wearing the same style of makeup as they'd worn as young girls. Someone looked like they had a flower bag bashed on their face, absolutely white, the eyelids and everything. It just looked like they cover their faces in corn flour and then little weird cupid bow, lips, cheeks, um, and still spoke in that [00:44:30] style of the thirties. You know what what was considered chic speak, You know, which was so dated? Well, especially in the sixties, because language is changing so much with, you know, everything that I mentioned earlier. Um, they still had the Marcel waves. So we had a French gentleman. He had been actually a military man. Um, prior to the war in France and he had had I think he was part of the thing he had had to get out. And so he [00:45:00] was in London um, Stuart Albert And he had a little burner, a little spirits burner. And he would heat the curling irons on that and they would come in. Um, and they would, um, on their dry hair. He would to it. It's called Tonging, and he would create these amazing waves and curls all over their heads. And very you would have seen this stuff sort of things that we saw in the thirties, you know, beautifully waved, and it was called a mass cell [00:45:30] wave because it was done with hot irons and it would last them four weeks. And what they would do is they would powder it with dry shampoo to keep it clean. And, um, because once it would have been pressed into the waves, literally like pressing clothing. Once it had been pressed, It just stayed there. Yes, and you'd hear him click, click, click, click, click, click of the irons as he because he had to keep them working quick because they could easily burn through the hair. You would test them on brown paper to see [00:46:00] if they were hot enough or too hot, too hot. Apply them to the hair. It would just go straight through them and burn them right off. Um, so it was quite a tricky thing. Uh, they used to do finger waves. They used to do these wonderful, mad, old, up to sort of, um, reminiscent of Downton Abbey, the Dowager duchess. Um, well, some of the clients were dowager duchesses. You know, lady and all sorts of people were coming in, Um, the the now deceased doger, duchess of [00:46:30] Devonshire. She'd been one of the, um uh, her and her sisters had been considered the beauties of, um of London in their in their day. What were they called? They can't think of it now, but, um, yes. Um, So you I was being introduced to an A class of people I could never have hoped to have met. It was quite fascinating. It was really was. And I think back now, I think how fortunate I was you had to learn how to address them all according to their rank. You know, um, a lady [00:47:00] and, um, you know, Your Grace and the whole thing. Or Duchess Duchess, Of course, being the wife of a duke, and yes, it's quite interesting. We had members of the royal family, not the royal ones, because a lot of people, you know, realise that the now deceased queen mother had an extensive family in Scotland who was Scottish nobility. But they weren't royalty. Um, they would come to get their hair done done when they came down to visit family at Buckingham Palace, I suppose, or out [00:47:30] at Windsor. And it was astounding how they looked like the queen. Some of them there was a definitely she's the bows lion thing is there. Um, yes, it was. It was, uh, the were dated compared to what I was used to in. And I mean, Mr Valentino, I wished to him one day about it, and he said, Well, what You've got to understand, Stuart. He said, Ladies like to look like ladies. They don't want to look fashionable. They want to look that that when you like. As I said [00:48:00] when I first laid eyes on Lady Grandy, you knew you were in the presence of someone that's not really of this planet. They're of another world. And that was the kind of world I was moving in. Yes. And did you find that they would, um uh, chat to you that you would be AAA confidant. Well, it's quite interesting. Those ladies, um, had been brought up serves. So they never confided. You bet you were very valued. You You were an extension of the servant [00:48:30] class because you were waiting on them and they were used to being dressed and cared for at home. So we were just an extension of that. But as a New Zealander and I copped a bit of jealousy for this from my coworkers, they find us English. Generally find us hard to really click into a social level A because we're not into the kind of pecking order thing as they are quite the same. Although it does exist in New Zealand, as you're probably aware, [00:49:00] they find it hard to to put us into a social class with the aristocracy, many of them in the nobility having country estates. These were sequestered in the war to bullet young boys coming back from the front. So many of them had very wonderful, um, experiences of caring for and being part of the whole thing of caring for wounded New Zealand soldiers and insects. And they and I don't think [00:49:30] every new Zealander is aware of just how grateful the older generation, especially the informed and educated, the aristocracy, the nobility, the debt they really felt they had to us, the Commonwealth troops, they really were held us very, very dear. These unsophisticated, catered young soldiers long way from their moms and dads fighting for empire in Europe again, This is the second World War I'm talking about. [00:50:00] And, um, here they were living in, you know, these these estates had been converted into, you know, convalescent hospitals and hospitals. And they had very, very fond memories of them. Some of the, um, women and nobility had had family associations in New Zealand, not because they had been had relatives here. They had had money here in the old days of the gold, and New Zealand has always [00:50:30] gone through booms and busts. And there were times when New Zealand really did drum. It was booming. I just mentioned gold. But there had been curry. There had been all sorts of things. Wool meat. Um, they had associations that way. I mean, how did these wonderful estates survive financially? Probably because Granddad opened up freezing works and slaughterhouses in New Zealand or wherever throughout the British world. So that's how they they they had a a real link [00:51:00] to us. I. I actually, um, suffered ill health at one stage I. I had peritonitis and best appendix and septicaemia and I was hospitalised. I was visited in a public wing by some really amazing people. And I think I touched on that last time. You know, Lady B turned up because of the association with New Zealand. She I had never done her hair. But obviously, Mr Ball, my boss must have mentioned all the young New Zealanders in hospital. And she turned [00:51:30] up with her two daughters and they brought me Lucas and some fruit. Um, there are other ones, too. And of course, I was in a public ward at Saint Mary's Paddington with about 30 or 40 other men in the ward with me, Um, and because their families are coming to visit and they were just regular people when these people turned up, Of course, as I said, you know, when you're in the presence of them, um, but just very refined and very yes, you know, refined [00:52:00] people, but very human and very caring. And they were quite amazed. You know, I was a bit in awe of my Copas by that, you know that? Goodness, how how are you getting visits from people like that? Um, so I was very, very Yeah, my parents were very, very touched. Very, very touched when I told them Lady B particularly, was very, very her link with New Zealand and the the whole thing. Um, you could tell You could tell they loved [00:52:30] New Zealand. And they loved New Zealanders. Yes. Can you think of any other memorable clientele? Well, Lady Carnarvon, as I said, she she came with her daughter and her grandson, who I think is now the current duke of, um or Lord, whatever he is, um, he was about my age. Well, I'm 70 so he'd be 70 now. But Lady Caernarvon, she was just an old lady with walking sticks and, uh, you know, everyone was, you know, fluffing around her and making her comfortable [00:53:00] and getting attended to. And it was only years and years and years later I was watching footage from, um you know, Lord Caravan's, uh, expedition to Egypt and the whole thing that there were movies of her actual films taken off her beside the diggings and and it really hit me. I thought, Yes, I knew who Lady Carnarvon was. I knew that she was the wife of Lord Carnarvon and Carmen's tomb and everything, but it really humanised her to me. And it discussed the relationship [00:53:30] in this documentary and how difficult it had been for her with him out there, and his health was deteriorating. Um, and the whole thing of their estate, um, as I said also, um, the dowager Duchess of Devonshire that day she wasn't the Dowager she had. She she brought in two of her little girls. Uh, I don't know if she had more, but she brought in these two little girls, and I was to trim their hair, and they were quite imperious. Little girls, I can tell [00:54:00] you, too. They, um again, they were used to that, um, being attended to, and I was to attend to them. And you could see that there was the there was that little tone of command there about Well, you really do know what you're doing, don't you? And this was from a girl for about six. Yes. Um, that that that was fascinating. I. I found out later years later that, um, the duchess to be mad on fowls, which was something I could have, uh, shared with [00:54:30] her. And she was a well known breeder of Rhode Island Red fowls. Um, And we also had, um a Lady Elizabeth. Um, she got married while I was doing her hair. Um, no, I wasn't doing her hair and did her hair. She was a Cockney girl. She was a delight. She real real little Eliah to do. And, um, Lady Elizabeth Leon's family had been attached to the court of Henry the eighth. I think her [00:55:00] ancestor was Cromwell. And so they're old aristo aristocracy, like the Spencers. They're not of the Georgian, which we have now. They were of the previous the indigenous aristocracy of England. When England was ruled by British born, um, kings and queens, she got married. And, of course, um, being old blood, Um, the queen and everybody else would have attended that wedding. You could imagine the wedding presents. [00:55:30] The wedding presents would have been divine. It was on all the papers a lot. They went on this wonderful honeymoon when I got back everything they'd been given had been looted. Every single gift you could imagine devastating. She was a lovely woman. Um, very natural. Um, but as I said, you were in the presence of a lady. Um, and [00:56:00] years and years later, I was watching, um, Antiques Roadshow. And she's one of the consultants on fine bone China. I think it was. And I went Oh, my God. This lady Elizabeth Ham. So that was you know, so every now and again, they do crop up even now. And I see them, I think. Oh, well, that's someone from the shop. That's someone from Valentino and Rita's. Hm. So did you ever keep, um, hair clippings of of famous people? No. [00:56:30] And you know, no. And I'll tell you another thing, I. I regret that I used to get invites from them to go to their country homes and they'd say, Oh, you know, you can catch a train in Paddington and, um, go down to such and such, and you'll change there. And you there's a little train that goes on to so and so and we will send the man to collect you. What? You know, why don't you come down on a Saturday afternoon. You can stay Sunday evening and I I'll tell Mr Valentino you won't be back [00:57:00] on the Monday that you can start on the Tuesday and you can have a nice weekend away from London because don't forget, London was very polluted. And, um, I mean, the air was ghastly in those days, and your clothing got crying and everything, and they they knew I was from New Zealand and they felt he would really benefit from fresh air and country life. And you could tell they really meant it. I would think, Oh, my my mother was very angry with me when I told her years later. She said, What a lost opportunity [00:57:30] I used to think. Oh, no, I couldn't. What if I didn't know how to conduct myself at the table or or what if something awful happened? I broke something, and I just I'd always make an excuse. Say Well. Oh, thank you. You know Oh, it's very kind of you, but I'd never follow it up. I'd never follow it up and say, Well, actually, I'd love to come and see you, and it would have been a wonderful, wonderful experience and they would have really made a fuss of me. And, um, it's not often you get an invite [00:58:00] to the home of an aristocratic family in England, and that happened quite a few times. In fact, I seem to remember Lady B Low even offered and said to me that if you need somewhere to recoup, um, you know, we'd be happy to have you to our home. You know, things like that. It it gives you it gave you another insight. People who have real class don't have to try and show it. It's It's there. It's self evident just in the way they they are the air [00:58:30] about them. You can tell you're in the presence of another type of human being. They're dying out. Of course now, But I did say somewhere in England there still exists a similar class of people. Yes. So so were you when you went to Europe. Were you, uh, hairdressing there as well? Oh, yes, yes, yes. I. I went to Spain and immediately had to get a job. Hairdressing. I couldn't speak Spanish at all. Um, it was just what you pick up off songs, you know, via my darling [00:59:00] and a a, um, I had to learn real quick. And, um, of course, in Barcelona, everyone speaks Catalan, even though it was forbidden by by the government decree, Um, you literally could be imprisoned or shot for speaking Catalan in public. Um, and so all my friends were Catalan, and so I had to learn to understand that otherwise I missed out on everything. All the jokes and all the fun and all the stories. But for the the actual spoken [00:59:30] language, um, it was practical to learn, um, classic Spanish and, um, yes. And I had to learn very, very, very quickly. And you do when you're large dependent on it. Um, the first song I worked in was a cell which catered to mistresses of top government, local government officials. They were all, um, from, uh, Castile. They were non Catalan. Um, they all spoke there Castilian, Spanish, [01:00:00] and they were all very respectable. But they were mistresses. And, um, and wives sometimes of, um, government functionaries, functionaries in Barcelona local government, because there was no, um administration Catalan administration in those days, uh, Franco held that very much the centrist government, and that was very much held in the, um in the hands of military people and and people with whom the government was totally confident. [01:00:30] The, um, regime was it was getting on towards the end of its due date. And, um, like a lot of those sort of movements, they were fighting very hard to keep it alive. So they were actually getting tighter again and and being, um, actually nastier in a way to maintain, um, the hold on government, which, of course, Franco intended to pass over directly to the king, and the king would become the next dictator [01:01:00] of Spain. Uh, but he very wonderfully didn't, Um I think Franco really underestimated Juan Carlos. Yes. And and and again, when you're doing your hairdressing work, how different was it in Spain to say? Yes, that was a learning curve. Um, because Spanish women go for big hair and, um, to impress, um, but in a Latin way, um, and colour, [01:01:30] of course. Uh, the what was considered fashionable in Spain in those days was not what would have been considered fashionable in Anglo Saxon countries. So I had to learn another fashion expression, but, um, hairdressing was very, very important. All women, regardless of social stature, would get their hair done because men expected the wife to look good and to make the most of her self, you know? So very [01:02:00] elderly women, very elderly, had their hair dyed. I mean, right up to the last minute. They still had the hair dyed. And, um, of course, being blonde was a big thing. So you had to, you know, lots and lots of Spanish women wanted very blonde fair hair. Um, it was highly regarded. So, you know, we did a lot of blending work. Um, straightening and smoothing as well, you know, to take the kinks and the waves out of the hair. Um, the hairdressing salon didn't have an appointment system. [01:02:30] You literally just like here in a barbershop. You rocked on up and just waited to turn. So the gossiping and the talking and the laughing and the shrieking, um, was was it was incredible. Um, And you you saw all sides of every story while you were doing here? Yes, because just, you know, because everybody would be talking together. The person you were talking on would still be working on would be talking to the people who are waiting and and and, of course, they get very animated. I used to [01:03:00] think they were having arguments. I thought they were all screaming at each other. But it wasn't. It was just They were being exuberant and getting carried away with their stories, you know, hands going and facial expressions too, You know, I love them. I love the Spanish people, and they have such a wonderful, wonderful history. There's the the wonderful light of it. And there's also the terrible dark of it. Hm? Yes. And so what was it like [01:03:30] coming back to New Zealand? Because I didn't you come back, like in the early seventies? Yeah, I came back in, uh, 74. Franco was still alive, so he died after I got back. Um, that was culture shock. I really I I because I had left New Zealand as a 20 year old, and I came back sort of about 25 26 years old. Um, it was weird. It was my country, but it wasn't anymore. And everything had changed. Um, you know, [01:04:00] there was a different kind of people walking around on the streets racially. I'm talking about um, you know, there was a lot more, um, Maori in the cities a hell of a lot more, Uh, in Pacifica. Um, there seemed to be a lot more, um, foreigners around, Um, because Wellington had become very sophisticated, and it was lovely. Um, you know, coffee bars and restaurants and and lots and lots of pubs and bars. I loved it. It was really buzzing. [01:04:30] And as I think I told you, I came back to what was a free society. I had not been living in a free society. When you're living in it, you just go by the rules, and that's what you all you know. Um, but suddenly you came back. And, you know, we really do have something, something rather incredible here. And, you know, when we look back, this is pre the, um, homosexual law reform. Um, being a homosexual in Wellington, Was there no, big? Really. I mean, you ran into incidents [01:05:00] as like, I touched on previously with you. Um, but it was great. I mean, people in Spain were being hauled off gay people being hauled off to camps to be treated, and God knows what they did to them. when they got them there. Um, you know, people disappeared. They're still digging them up beside highways and things. It was a terrible time. We didn't know any of that was really going on. Well, we I think we sort of so, like any regime. You kind of you just keep your nose out of [01:05:30] it. Yes. And you go on. But yes. No, Wellington was great. And, um, there was a real sense of theatre and art in Wellington. Um, you know, Downstage Theatre. Um, Unity Theatre, the, um Wellington um, art society. Um, artists were having exhibitions because in Spain, you had to be very careful. If you're an artist, you know, everything had to be according to, you know, whereas here it was [01:06:00] astounding, and I was going to photographic exhibitions and artistic exhibitions. And suddenly I realised that being quite openly gay and dressing up to it was made quite a celebrity in those little environments. People were really all quite pleased. You came to the exhibition and they'd make sure they invited you again because they wanted a little bit of that difference at their exhibitions, you know? And I still know, Do know some of those artists Victoria G, Andre Franken and others from [01:06:30] those a lot of them, sadly and have deceased. But yes, it was great. A great time, Gareth. It really was. I belonged to the Film Society. Um and I found that I could go there, you know, wearing quite sort of out there clothes. I'm talking about male attire, but really out there and, um, knowing a blink, it was considered great, you know? Um, yes. As I said, Wellington had a really a real It was called the Queen City. [01:07:00] It was It was good to be gay in Wellington at that time. Yes, we take the bad with it. There's the dark side of everything, isn't there? But basically, it was a good place to be. Lots to do and lots of fun. Yes. And then you moved to hairdressing on a cruise ship. Well, that was much later. Gareth, that was I was in my late fifties, so I don't know. So I mean, when I came back in the seventies, I think I touched on it. I I went to work, [01:07:30] I was working as a barman, and we discussed that, um that that really is what I needed. In light of what I just told you, I really need to be zapped. I needed to be really hit in the face with, with the morality that was of the seventies and a Western free democracy. And, of course, we were mirroring everything that was going on in California out here, you know? And, um, the whole drug culture thing was very much coming in, of course, in the seventies. And, of course, sexual [01:08:00] liberation. Um, yes. After that, I mean, I owned Salon and for many, many years, as I said, I, um, worked as part of a sales team as a product usage educator. Um, for a while, three years. And then I did tutoring, uh, at, uh, Wellington Institute of Technology for 12 years. And then I was at the end of that, and I thought, What can I do That's totally different. And I thought, Well, all I know is hairdressing. So [01:08:30] I went online, and I saw that there were jobs on cruise ships offering for hairdressers. Everybody who I told about it, um who was in hairdressing and said, Oh, they want young people. No, they didn't. And because as I said when I got there and produced the Lady Grandy recommendation in Valentino and Rita, Um uh, resume on my work? Um, they they were very keen to have me. And that was really great, because suddenly [01:09:00] a it gave me the opportunity to be back in the northern hemisphere again where I thought I'd never be ever again, um, to be able to walk the streets of London prior to my first embarkation, and then also to revisit Spain after 35 years to go back to a place which now is, uh, a constitutional monarchy along the lines of what we've got here in New Zealand. Absolute liberty, Um, in incredible, really celebrating that liberty. Um, [01:09:30] but cruise ships was great. A whole different type of conversation with a whole different range of people that were totally different from where I'd been in the I used to think sometimes I'd be sailing along, and at night you'd go up on the deck when the passengers by now would have settled down and you could walk the deck and look out and I'd be looking out. You see little islands in the Caribbean going by and little lights glinting and looking like like a When you look across [01:10:00] at, you know, that sort of thing. And I'd think about that. I mean, we passed that island where it was next to volcano, and you could see it. The lava glowing up in the up in the sky above And you realise, Oh, that must be that island. They had to evacuate it. But I was thinking, You're a long way from now, John. It was great. It was a good feeling. I would have continued more years. But I got to age 61 and it really I wanted to come [01:10:30] back on shore. I wanted to garden again. I love gardening. I wanted to be able to drive a car. All those things, you know, and for me ship life. Um, you know, I alluded to it earlier. I make sailing. I took to go to England in 1967. Um, the people that work on the cruise ships are very high standard of of expectation. You know, the service must be absolutely go beyond, um, the passenger expectation. [01:11:00] So when they play hard, they play hard, and it's a very peculiarly heterosexual environment. The crew is mainly heterosexuals. I people who said to me, Oh, gosh, you're gonna have a ball. It's gonna be so gay. Might have been in the fifties and sixties with the Dominion monarch and the rest of them. Not anymore. It's very much a heterosexual, um, sort of career working on cruise ships, and it suits them well. And, of course, there's a huge turnover of staff [01:11:30] all the time. People's contracts would end in one port, and a new lot of people would come on to take their places. Three days later, you call into another port, someone else had to lot would have to disembark, and another lot would come on. So there was new faces all the time in the crew bar. And you can imagine the romances and everything else that was going on because I was like, Granddad, I used to be the shoulder to cry on. Um and, uh, you know, be like the the parent figure. Um, [01:12:00] there was a few gay guys. Um, and I sprung a couple of very discreet gay women. Um, yeah, but, um and I mean, some of the passengers were obviously gay, especially on the elite one, I was on with. There was only about 400 passengers. We would get groups of gay men coming on together who would be, um, they'd obviously be pals back in San Francisco or Sydney or wherever they were from. [01:12:30] And they would, um, be all great mates. And they decide, Let's go all and have a cruise together sometimes. Gareth, they were marvellous fun. They were there to have a good time. Other times you'd get a group and demanding and all making scenes in the spa about the towels weren't folded properly, or my light bulb wasn't working or, um, something wasn't. You know, all the flowers weren't fresh, really making scenes. [01:13:00] And I said to my spa manager, who was a delightful Hungarian man and really lovely looking and a very nice person. I said, they're doing this to compile a whole of things to talk about at the next dinner parties when they get back to wherever they're from. I said there and I showed them how sort of thing you know, But, um, yes, it it it was a It was a very good insight, um, into that world as well into the gay world as well. Yes. Uh, [01:13:30] you know, you you saw gay men that, um, in some of these groups who were people that were extremely wealthy in their own right, and they knew it. Um, but they made it through the arts or through industry. They just been really clever, but also happened to be gay. The gayner did not define them. The defining was the the beautiful homes and their lifestyles and their friends. Um, you know. And, uh, so it was an eye opener. Um, and I realised that, you know, I did My little life [01:14:00] passed me by back in New Zealand, but I don't regret it. Oh, you always have a few little things, but yeah, it was good. So what do you think? On reflection Now, what do you think hairdressing has given you? Hairdressing for me? Personally, um, has been a wonderful vehicle. It's take me around the world. It, uh it's given me a wonderful career. It hasn't been for me [01:14:30] an extremely lucrative career. Um, I did have a very successful business. However, the more successful it is and the greater the turnover, the more staff products lighting, heating, hot water, you need to cope with it. Profitability not to be confused with cash flow. Um, but it provides us with a good lifestyle because that cash flow was, you know, there. But at the end of it, you don't [01:15:00] walk away with being able to buy the beautiful home necessarily. And not like, As I said earlier with my previous employers when I was young, it has changed. Hairdressing has changed. I think hairdressing is a calling. If you If you don't have artistic flair, don't delude yourself. Hairdressing is not for you. A monkey can cut here. Um, do you want to be a monkey? But to sculpt a head of hair with scissors [01:15:30] and razors and clippers, um, to be able to create from a head of hair, a beautiful work of art in a in a beautiful hair design and a and a gorgeous, up to and elegant style that takes a special artistic flair and a and a love that art is not going to be on that wall lasting forever. She's gonna wash it all out, or it's gonna grow. And it's gone. Unless there's beautiful photos of it, [01:16:00] somewhere of her. With it. No I do regret I didn't take more photos of some of my work. I know there are photos here in Wellington of my work going back 2030 years and people's family albums, but they probably don't know who did that hair do. Um, because I was a good hairdresser. I still am. And I was well sought after for, um, those more, um, extravagant hairdos of that period. You know, the updos, as we call them, long hair swept up on top and with all [01:16:30] the detail work, Um, now, hairdressers, uh, I would recommend it to someone who wants to do something very artistic and creative and who loves people. You must love humanity. You've got to be able to handle people and modify your personality. According to this, as I was to earlier working on the Aristocrats and the nobility. But then, if you're working on the lady who runs the little Greek fish and chip shop or the little lady [01:17:00] that just has house cleaning, they're all customers. They're all clients, and you adapt. You adapt your personal. You modify your personality so they feel at ease so they can open up to you and not feel intimidated by you and feel that they can trust you with their hair or that you will do the best for them. Some of them don't even know what they want. They're looking to you for that, you know? So no hairdressing, um, is, uh, is is wonderful. And I think now, with the more session stylists, [01:17:30] um, you know that, um, Derek and Michael Beal working in unison with clothing, makeup, uh, film, um, magazines, Uh, it It's wonderful. It's always been been done. But it's it's phenomenal now because media is everything now and those boys are riding the crest of the wave now and all power to them all power to them. It's been wonderful to [01:18:00] see how Derek, um you know, he's I think he's originally just from the hut. Um, but how? He has really made a wonderful career and has achieved both financially but artistically and still is and still is and so respected and so well regarded. I met him when he was really young. I saw him in a pub. He was just with a couple of friends. He's very shy, and I So I flounced over to his table and I said, Oh, hello, I said, I believe you're doing hairdressing and said Yes, [01:18:30] I said, I believe that you should go to Paris and he said, Oh, do you think so? I said, Oh, I believe you've got it He'd been one win winning competitions and I'd seen his work and I thought, if he got in those days, it took about 30 years ago. Now, Um, I thought, if you could get something like Paris and Understudy to one of the great hairdressers of those days, but he didn't. But he is, however more he's more New York than he is Paris. He is. He's great. Yeah, so [01:19:00] and I I think that he still has a very viable career. Um, and there's still huge money to be made in it. You know, I've just mentioned, but I've never been one of those. And I've, um I've just been a hairdresser, and I've been a hair stylist. Hair designer? Yes. Happy to work for a wage, happy to work with people. And I just love it. And I would hope to continue it for many years to come. And I'm aged 70 now. I'd still I'd still like to be doing a bit of hairdressing [01:19:30] in 10 years time If people want me. If there's a demand for my work, why not? Hm?
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