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I guess I have always been interested in helping people and doing things that make a difference for other people's lives. I've always been that kind of person, and it was, uh, for me. I was about in year seven, about 11 years old, when I had the best teacher in the world, and he really took me under his wing. Um, I was a bit of a I was a good student, and he, um, [00:00:30] really helped me in a number of ways and a number of things and made me grow enormously that year. And during that year, he told us a story about how he became a teacher because his mom identified that he liked helping people and that he should think about becoming a teacher and that for him, was a real trigger. And he shared that with me and then added that I should think about also becoming a teacher, and for me, that was the seed. And from then on, I just I was destined [00:01:00] to be a teacher. I just had to get there as quickly as I could. So what makes a good teacher, uh, someone that's passionate someone that works for the students And, um, that believes in students ability and capacity to be, uh, fantastic contributors to the world. Um, someone that thinks that young people are as capable of making a difference as anybody else in the world. Um, and someone that wants to see, [00:01:30] uh, young people succeed and be people that can actually lead the world. Um, and change society. Um, I think we we we sometimes fall into this hierarchical sense of, um once you're older, you can then lead and make a difference. But actually, I think the world is so democratised at the moment that I I like to see it the other way around. And I think it's really important that when we are teaching our young people that we believe in their capacity [00:02:00] to to think outside the box and make change now. So I think that's really important in education, particularly as, um, things are so Devo in terms of, uh, access to devices and technology and means that anyone can really contribute to the world, um, and put things out there and be producers of content. So, um, that's I think that's a key key notion of today's world. So tell me a wee bit about your background. Where Where do you come from? [00:02:30] Um, I grew up in Wellington, and I've was schooled here, Um, all through my Wellington years, and then I kept trying to leave, and I never did, because I kept getting opportunities in Wellington. Um, so I ended up going to Victoria University, studying film, media and English, um, and then followed straight on to Teachers College. Um, and then I ended up getting a job at Newlands College, where I work now [00:03:00] and have been working for the last seven years. Yeah, and in terms of your sexual identity, I came out when I was about 17, and I become I was aware of something being different for, um, a number of years leading up to that. But I was I was very much in denial and didn't when I was looking around, I didn't really have that many role models or that many that that much access to, [00:03:30] uh, that kind of world. So it took me a long time to connect to it. Um, but eventually I did. And then it went through the sort of slow process of telling one friend at a time and eventually I think, by the sort of the middle of first year at uni, I was, um, well and truly out of the closet and have been ever since, so 17. So what kind of year was that? That was my last year at school. Yeah, my last year at high [00:04:00] school, but 2000, 2005. Yeah. OK, so in 2000, in the in the mid two thousands, what kind of images of of rainbow people were there? What? Was there anything in the media? Was there anything that you kind of related to? How That's the problem. Looking back, I can't actually remember anything that that either ever really triggered a strong connection for me. And I mean, I certainly don't. I'm not one of those people with a with a gay uncle or, um, some family member that [00:04:30] that I could connect to I. I now know that, uh, my what would it be? Great, Uncle um is gay. But it wasn't talked about in the family as a as a thing. So there was There was nothing that grabbed onto there and in terms of what I was accessing in the media. Um, whenever gay came up, it was very much an other thing. Um, and I think that I never I never saw something that made me go. That's a normal way. Uh, that's a normal lifestyle. That could be me. That could be the the thing [00:05:00] that I'm missing at the moment. Um, so, yeah, it wasn't I can't think of anything specifically that that I connected to. And I mean, the only thing that I can remember, um, having really confused thoughts about was was, um, watching friends and seeing, um, Chandler constantly being mocked for being in feminine and, um, being slightly different and that notion of of, [00:05:30] uh, his potential or perceived homosexuality and that being a really negative thing that triggered a lot of, um, humour and mocking. Um, that was that was something that I I just remember seeing and and going and maybe actually jumping on that bandwagon and using some negative language around that. Um, but yeah, I didn't I didn't really have much connection in terms of what I was experiencing in the media when I was in the [00:06:00] two thousands. It's very different now. Yeah. So were you I mean, can you recall instances where you were actually kind of homophobic? Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, uh, particularly growing up in all, um, being in an all boys school where the homophobic language was was thrown around constantly. Um, I was definitely on that bandwagon because of that need to fit in. Um, and that was that was something that I was looking back I'm extremely embarrassed about, but, [00:06:30] um, that that was the culture of the time and that just there was there was nothing was in place to challenge it. No one was actually actively giving us any alternative discourse around this. This issue it was it was simply, you know, anyone perceived to be homosexual was suddenly all those negative words that we know. Uh, no. So, what negative words are we talking about? Well, so definitely in the all boys school we we threw around faggot a lot. Um, [00:07:00] and, um, and, um, bummer. Was was was a key one for for a while. Um, and of course, this is all tied to male identities because of the all boys nature of it. Um, but that was that was the most of it. And and, of course, that everything was gay. You rule that it didn't work was gay. And this assignment was gay. And this time of the day was gay. So, you know, everything was was, [00:07:30] um, sort of drawn up into quite negative terms. So can you recall any say, um, gay students or gay teachers? Um, yes, Um, no gay students. So I I went through my entire school year never having a, uh, a peer come out. Um, there was there was talk of a few people. And of course, there were people that were, um [00:08:00] that had far more sort of camp gestures or or something that that made them more of a target than than I was. I mean, I've I never had anything that was quite outwardly, um, perceived as a feminine or anything like that. So, um, I wasn't a target for that stuff, but I think I was also very conscious of not being a target, so I'm not sure how much there was probably a balance between those two things. [00:08:30] Um, but those those students that that were they were certainly, um, targeted. Um, but to my knowledge, they haven't come out or or anything like that since And we had a teacher. There was there was one teacher who was, um, openly gay at school. But there was a lot of negative talk that went around that, um outside of that classroom, I think I think the the whole idea of respected [00:09:00] to their face. But behind the scenes, it was all that negative language again. And that was just, I think, the school culture that that was in place like no. One, no one was there to stop that. And the school culture didn't embrace diversity holistically. So as a result, there was. There was there was the room for for those students to to target that and in quite negative terms. And that just added to the difficulty around coming to terms with one's own identity [00:09:30] when that's framed up in such negative ways. Did those negative attitudes influence what kind of subjects you took at school? Um, it was quite funny because it's actually it was actually a school with quite a strong arts culture. That was that was interesting. And I know that that often has that strong connection with, um, queer culture and, um, it was quite interesting that so I took drama. I was involved in productions [00:10:00] and and did Shakespeare, um, and ironically, played a a very camp, um, teacher character in a year 13 production. And, um, but that was that was sort of like a a celebrated area. So there there was quite, um, different, um, different expectations around, uh, your behaviours in in those contexts versus your behaviour [00:10:30] in and around like the general school yard. Uh, so when there was, you know, there was a bunch of us that played drama. And, of course, there was a some language around that that was, um that was negative, but we were quite strongly staunchly supported by our drama teacher about our identities as as drama students. And so that was that was sort of all the all that we needed there to ensure that we were [00:11:00] comfortable. Um, doing that, which was good. Yeah. And you were saying at 17 that you were kind of, um, coming to terms with with your own kind of sexual identity? How did how did that happen? And and and and you know, were you comfortable with that? Um, yes, II. I was actually I was surprisingly so, um I think the the reality is of I always knew I was different all the way [00:11:30] through school, right from the beginning, And, um, actually having the ability to focus in and say I am gay and have the ability to locate myself in that, and that identity was really, really comforting for me after all those years of of, sort of being lost in that respect. Um, so I was I was straight away, really quite comfortable with it. And it's [00:12:00] interesting looking back that I didn't really have that period of of denial once I was sort of there. I was there, um and I turned the corner straight away, and part of that was through the couple of friends that I told they were really quite comfortable with it straight away and really supportive. And that gave me, uh, that really helped with my self confidence in in ensuring that I could go forward as as a gay man, which is good. [00:12:30] And then then parents followed shortly after, and they were fantastic as well. So and did you actually find that you needed to, like, kind of come out or was it just a matter of just being I mean, did you need did you need Did you feel that you needed to tell people? Yes, I did. And And what was quite interesting? And I was I was reflecting on this just the other day was with someone that had quite the opposite experience, that when they came out, they were just greeted with shrugs. But [00:13:00] in my culture and and the community of friends that I had because I was living in that world where gay just wasn't a thing, it was just that negative thing on the side. We didn't have those peers. They didn't. We didn't have those role models, and as a result, I actually had to battle with some people to convince them that I was actually gay. You know, they were sort of in denial. These are close friends of mine that could not believe that someone that they knew so well was gay because gay just wasn't part of [00:13:30] their world. Um, so I had to educate them as to what that meant, as well as tell them what it was for me. Um, because it just wasn't there. Um, you know, being mentioned once or twice in health class just wasn't enough. And it just wasn't part of the world. It was very interesting. And and alongside of that, there was a lot of myth that I had to, um, break. I remember one friend that I told who immediately asked me whether or not this meant I was going to start dressing up in a woman's clothing and that was that was just something [00:14:00] I had to break down straight away. But that was that's a really intelligent guy who had this weird idea of what it meant just because he didn't have, uh he didn't really have access to that world. And it wasn't part of his culture whatsoever. And that quickly changed. And you were saying at school that it was, um, through health classes that you learned about, um you know, uh, gay was mentioned. Were there Were there any other places [00:14:30] in the school curriculum where kind of homosexual, gay or lesbian or transgender kind of came up I. I don't remember it coming up almost at all. Um um I mean, in my own teaching practise, it comes up all the time through the text that I choose and and whatnot and, um, embracing diversity in in so many ways and also just general topics around talking about same sex partners at school balls or that sort of thing. But when I was at school, [00:15:00] I do. I just do not remember that happening. Um and and that's a That's a shame, because I, I guess those opportunities could have provided me with some triggers or some, uh, something to grasp onto and help me connect with my own identity and I. I can't remember them being there and certainly in health classes when it was mentioned, it was very brief, and it was sort of, um, on the cusp, uh, sort of as if the [00:15:30] funny thing about you know, health teaching and education is that you've got PE teachers that have been given the health curriculum, but often uncomfortable with a number of the things that they have that that then it makes them teach. Um And I think, uh, sexuality and gender identity is is one such thing that gets a complete disservice from that structure. Um, because if you imagine the stereotype of most PE teachers, uh, and then you connect [00:16:00] that with them talking about sexuality and gender identity in today's world. I think there's a real, uh that doesn't quite fit the picture. And that provides a lot of issues when it comes to, um, students getting a lot of this key information through that course. So it's problematic. And so when you were going through school and in those health classes, what was the response? When when kind of gay issues came up the [00:16:30] same thing, it was on the playground. It was all very framed in in quite a negative way. Um, it was it was certainly always other. So it was It was the it was the thing on the side. Um, you know, this thing exists, but you probably won't have to deal with it because you guys are all men, You guys are all boys. And now let's keep talking about sex with girls. And what about gender identity? Was there any mention of gender? [00:17:00] I don't think it ever came up. Um, not from my memory. Anyway, Um, it was No, it's It's certainly not something that I experienced. I don't think in my schooling almost at all. Um, we had some talk around it again. Those negative words. Um, when we framed it up in in drama and there was there was some talk of cross dressing and all of a sudden, um, [00:17:30] you know, the idea of being a trainee was suddenly brought up in, um, in that kind of bullying banter, um, language. But apart from that, I cannot remember ever, ever arising, which is again, a real shame. So 2005 when you were 17 coming out? Uh, that would have been right at the time of civil unions. So we're talking Destiny Church would be enough [00:18:00] was enough. March. Do you recall any of that I? I remember seeing it on TV and in the media and so on. But again, it just it didn't seem connected with my world and the world of my friends and community. Um, it was it was something that was happening off to the side, and I guess III I know I had some thoughts during that and and watching it, but, um but because it was a again, it just didn't have that connection because [00:18:30] it wasn't part of my conversation and because it wasn't part of my discourse and part of the the language that I was using around my friends and family. Uh, it didn't. It wasn't something that I felt particularly connected to. And I guess, you know, looking back, had it been had we been more comfortable talking about, um, you know, neighbours, friends, people in the community that were were gay if we were able to, um, you know, use [00:19:00] more positive language around that and talk about that in a more open way. Then I think that would have opened up the space to maybe connect more with what was going on with with, um, civil unions and all that thing all all that stuff that was going on in the media. But it it just there was a complete disconnect for me. Um, because I didn't have really access to that yet. I wasn't quite there. And what about, um, things like the Internet? I mean, did that play any part in you? Kind of, you know, working out you [00:19:30] where you kind of fitted? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, at a certain point, um, I started Googling and that that helped a lot. Um, because then suddenly there was this huge world out there that suddenly I had access to. But I, I still it took me a long time to get there. I feel like maybe if in year nine II I could have started Googling that things could have been different. But I just didn't have access to that world. I. I didn't have access [00:20:00] to the language that I needed in order to, uh, start thinking about whether or not that was something I wanted to find out more about. Um, so it took me quite a while to get there. And so it was quite late in my teens that I that I started going into those the depths of the Internet that helped me to discover, um, and connect with with that, um but it it Yeah, it it took a while. And what about local support? I mean, were you aware of kind of youth groups like around Wellington or [00:20:30] maybe within the school, that that that supported that kind of university? There was absolutely nothing we we never had um I. I can't remember anything being talked about at school. I mean, I know a school's out existed and it was there, um but I can't remember it ever coming up in in school or in a way that could have connected me with it at all. We had a guidance counsellor at school, but that's that's a That's a strange thing in [00:21:00] a, um, all boys school with A with a culture around masculinity. Um, and I think there's there's a lot that could have been broken down by having more approachable means to see a guidance counsellor around these issues. But again, I just I just didn't have the language for I didn't have the connection with it, So I didn't seek those opportunities or that help. So how do you think something like a A schools out support group outside of school can [00:21:30] help students that maybe don't have that connection to to the group? How how do they? How do they reach those people? Well, I think the first thing is that we've got to you got to change the language in schools and make it, um, an accepted part of of the discourse that's used within schools, and then they allow us the opportunity for schools out to come speak in an assembly or, uh, someone in the school that that could represent these ideas to speak at Assembly and then make connections with With that, um, one of the key phrases that I've [00:22:00] that I've sort of kept using is that, um, diversity is more than just a poster on the wall. It's actually got to be part of the culture and the philosophy underpinning everything that you do in in that school centre. And at the moment, I think there's there's schools that are doing really well with the posters on the wall. Um, but they need to go much further with that and bring that language into, um, the policies that underpin everything that they do and the language that they use [00:22:30] in schools to actually let um, those outside resources, um, be accessed by by the students that are there. Can you describe the feeling when you kind of finally came out? What was that like? Um, it was it was actually really tough. It was. It was part of the reason why it was tough. It was because it was It was It was framed in a relationship that I that I started, um, [00:23:00] almost straight away, uh, actually with one of my friends who uh, I came out to, um, so that was unexpected. And that went on for a while. And it was a It was a really, uh It was a very negative relationship, but because I had, you know, suddenly come out and I didn't have access to the world around me. I thought there was only one other gay person in the world, and and that was him. And it was It was extremely harmful when it became [00:23:30] bad for a whole number of reasons. And I guess it was actually after I left that relationship, um, and and moved on from there that I finally felt that elation of, um, of self acceptance around my identity and who I was and what that meant. And all of a sudden there was there was a world out there that I could access, and, um, and things changed from then on. So it was certainly a huge feeling of positivity once, [00:24:00] once I got the shackles off of of of that stuff. Yeah. And then what? What was it like at university? Because I I've heard kind of varying accounts of that university is is very kind of open in terms of the diversity, but also, it can actually be really homophobic. How did you find it? I think I experienced both. I found, um, I. I didn't end up, uh, using uniq, um, which was at Victoria University. [00:24:30] They they've got a a cool structure there, and it works for some people. But I found that it was, um quite, uh, it was It was a very strict community, and I didn't When when I made an attempt at this was a very hard hearted attempt. I have to be have to be a little bit hard on myself there. But when I made an attempt to be there, I just felt like it was it was a gated community, and I didn't quite belong in there, so I didn't [00:25:00] keep going along, and that was fine. But, um, I started meeting a whole lot of people outside of that, and, um, I I gained some some friends through there. I gained some relationships, and I, um, generally just found the world just outside my close group of friends. Um, and it was an extremely accepting and, um, fantastic world. Um, but I, I think I also met some people that were [00:25:30] very judgmental and, um, very strict in the way that they saw me expressing my sexuality and perhaps didn't didn't find that as, um as fine as as many other people there was. There was there were two sides to that. So I think I think what I'm trying to refer to there is that, um the homophobia is it was sometimes from from people that were also identifying as gay [00:26:00] and, um, some some strict rules that I wasn't adhering to. Um, and around the presentation of my sexuality, that was that was quite interesting to to experience that. Can you give me an example? Oh, just like close. Um, you know, whether or not you went to, um, a gay club or whether or not you went out with your straight friends And, um, it was Yeah, there was some quite judgmental opinions that I that I encountered from time [00:26:30] to time, but I took them all with a grain of salt and kept on ploughing through with my own personal sense of self. Do you have any thoughts about how groups say, like uniq or or or any any group, um, in the communities could um, be less closed in terms of, you know how How do you make it more open to people so that they feel accepted that there's a So you're not actually shutting the door [00:27:00] on people? Yeah, it's It's a tough one. I mean, I've I feel like it's there is there is two sides of the coin. There's there's what I experienced in, um, and when I went along to uni. But there's also what I experience with, um, inside out today, Um, where where I'm working with them and seeing what they do when new people come along and just the the way that they treat everybody with so much respect and, um, [00:27:30] and work so hard to make connections straight away by, um, embracing, uh people for who they are and and what they bring to the table. And there's there's a real culture shift that, um that I've seen from from those two experiences. And it's, uh, there's so much willingness to treat people with respect and, um, really mhm really respect their identity and all the ideas that they're bringing and I I really [00:28:00] like that model. So I think it's it's just a case of being open to to new and being happy to have those conversations at the door, um, and bring them into the space and and really welcoming ways, but also make connections outside that and be visible in as many places as possible so that those people can come through the door. So from university and studying film, media and English, you you decide to go to teaching college teachers college And what is Teachers college [00:28:30] like, um, for an openly out gay man? Well, that's the funny thing about, um, about these different stages of life. Because I I while I was an openly out gay man, I still had to come out at every stage of the of the process. It's something that I always find fascinating explaining to straight people that, um that coming out is not a one time thing and that it's a constant [00:29:00] the thing that happens all the time. And I'm making decisions just about every day about whether or not I come out to a new person or a new situation. And often I'm making the decision not to, um, because I can't be bothered or there might be a safety question or it's or it's just not the right time and place, um, but often that often I am at some point saying he or or saying something that, um, that reveals [00:29:30] that. And at Teachers College, it took me quite a while. There was there was quite a I don't know, an expect or yeah, it's a heteronormative environment. It's it's a lot of people made expectations. Um, and I think that reflected the teaching profession, um, as a as a whole, which is which is quite heteronormative. And there's there's not so much spaces for, um, diversity within teaching. [00:30:00] Sure, we'll get to that in a moment. And I, I think it teaches college. While there was so much good will and once the once the word got out or once, um, it had come up a few times, it was absolutely fine. And everyone was extremely accepting. And, um, and absolutely open open to that. Um, but it it took a while to fit in teachers college. I'm not I'm not entirely sure why actually, looking back, um, but there was [00:30:30] Yeah, It took a while for it. To all feel is safe and good again. Um, it was a completely new environment. Barely knew anyone at Teachers College. And then once, we kind of formed our community once, once all our personal lives, it had started to be revealed to one another. It was it was good, but it it took a while. And throughout teacher's college. Uh, were were there any support groups? Were there any, uh, no, Nothing specific? Um, nothing specific that I encountered. I think uniq still has [00:31:00] the overarching connection for for anyone that's at Victoria University. Um, the teacher's college is technically part of Victoria, but it was based up in, um and but no, I wasn't accessing anything like that or doing anything along those lines, so no, it was wasn't really there. I mean, do you think that would be AAA? Good thing. Definitely, definitely. And the other aspect of that that, um, working on at the moment is actually bringing, [00:31:30] um, diversity teaching as part of the curriculum that they that they use at Teachers College. So we didn't have anything about, um, you know, teaching, um, diverse students. There was nothing specific about, um, LGBTI issues, and there is an enormous space that that needs to be plugged for for that kind of stuff. And, um, I'm chatting to a few lecturers now, um, about the potential of doing [00:32:00] that kind of work and and bringing in some outside voices in order to actually start talking about that because it's coming increasingly important, given that there's so many more students that are, um that are that are coming out in class and also involving teachers in those conversations. So the teachers need to be trained and aware of of that and how to deal with those situations. So you were going through teaching college In what year? Uh, that would have been 2009. [00:32:30] Yes, 2009. So, still, at that time, was there anything in the curriculum about rainbow Communities apart from the health curriculum? Uh, no. And at that stage, the the health curriculum, the, um, sexuality education guidelines were extremely outdated. Uh, and that was that's just another problem off the side. But then there was nothing specific that I can remember ever coming up, um, along the lines of anything at [00:33:00] teachers college specifically relating to diversity at all. So it was very much focused on teaching philosophy and um, teaching theory and and the pedagogy and behind it wasn't they didn't really open up the space for for talking about that stuff. Um, it's a one year course, it's full on, and, um, it's important for it to be in there, but it wasn't at that stage. Yeah, I'm just kind of thinking, [00:33:30] Why not? And II, I guess time constraints are one thing. But is it? I mean, it's hard to get stuff into that teaching environment. Or is it? There's just not there's not a will to have it there or the the conversation that I'm having now. There is certainly a will, Um, I think that what what might get in the way is is, um well, there's so little time and courses are so much full already and there's there's I [00:34:00] mean, I guess there's a lot of there's a lot of power plays that goes on in behind the scenes. I'd imagine between lecturers in order to get a particular content valued above other content and how much time you get for this and how much time you get for that, I'm sure, is a constant conversation. Um, so the more that this kind of conversation happens. And the more, um, the the wider fear opens up to talking [00:34:30] about diversity and particularly diversity in education, the more likely it is that that teachers college will listen to that and and make it happen. But I know like, um, I'm involved in the PPT a rainbow task force. Can we do, uh, presentations PD presentations to, um, staff rooms about, um, running safe schools for all that that, um, embrace and include and celebrate diversity. And we've managed to get that, [00:35:00] uh, presentation into, um Waikato. So that's that's a start. And I'm sure other universities will follow in due course. But it is. It is something that that, I think is is missing. And maybe there are reasons I'm not aware of, but it's a shame. So talk to me about, um, that first time you're at school and, um, you have to navigate that whole kind of coming out. Do I come out? Do I not [00:35:30] OK? Well, that was that was a shame. Um, because it came up when I was at a on a teaching placement and I was being observed teaching by my associate teacher, and I cannot remember the specific moment. I definitely remember what happened afterwards, but what happened to trigger it was I had made some comment or did some gesture that was perceived as camp or somehow [00:36:00] revealing. And my associate teacher, who knew I was gay took me aside afterwards and sort of angrily challenged me on the fact that I had revealed who I was, and that was none of the students business. And I wasn't to do that, and that was quite jarring. And it was probably the first time I've ever had that sort of, um, real strong message to suppress who I was, Um, from [00:36:30] someone that I really trusted And that was that was a big moment for me because it it it could have inspired me to really, um, really fight against that perception and rise up and say, No, you will not. You will not suppress my identity. My identity is important to me and it's important to the students that I teach. But no, I went. I went very quiet at that point, and I I was [00:37:00] really, really, um affected by that moment and that stayed with me for a number of years and I think inspired me inspires the wrong word. But it really led to me being, uh, quite closeted in the classroom in those first few years that I taught because I was sort of under this cloud that that it sounds silly now. But I, I did feel [00:37:30] like she was right in some way that I wasn't to reveal that side of myself, and that would make it dangerous for me and those students. And so I took a huge backward step. On the basis of that and I, I chose to tell myself that I would be I would not tell them, but I wouldn't lie either. And if they were to ask me directly, [00:38:00] I wouldn't. I would probably try and avoid the question, or that's what I had in my head anyway. And that's that to me, caught me off the hook and made me feel like I wasn't going to be lying. But I know now looking back, that was that. I was lying. I was. It was just another form of lying, and it was such a shame that I spent those first few years of of my teaching practise, um, trying to keep that hidden from the students. And they knew they all knew [00:38:30] well, not all of them. But, you know, they they could figure some things out. And even if they didn't know exactly what was going on, I mean, they would have had an inkling. Um, and it's it's not something that you can completely hide. I mean, they're they're interested. They ask you personal questions all the time and not specifically on that. I never got the question. Are you gay? Um, but, you know, they they could figure it out if they put two and two together. And why do you say it would have been dangerous to you and the students? That's [00:39:00] that's what was given to me by that associate teacher that I was putting myself at risk. Um, and I think that reflected the the school culture of of that school that I was doing that teaching, uh, teaching experience at, um and because basically, in order to be out of school, you have to have the backing of senior management, and you have to have them willing to stand in for you. Um, for that parent that makes a complaint or or that student [00:39:30] who, um, says something that, um that is harassment or or bullying or or anything that comes up or the colleagues or anything. You have to have a senior management that's willing to back you. And I know from the experience that I had of seven weeks at that school, that's not a place where that would have happened. And I think that her comments reflected that environment. Um, and that's not true of all schools. But it was true for the moment there, [00:40:00] and those were kind of persuasive thoughts which stayed with me for a long time. And it was all gave me a lot of baggage, which I didn't deal with particularly well. I think one of the reasons was that I I didn't really talk to anyone about it, and I didn't really navigate my way through it openly. Um, I just sort of put it on my shoulders and and went on with with teaching, convinced that I would I could still [00:40:30] be a good teacher without being true to myself, I guess. Does it make you mad to even have that have have to have that conscious thought of Do I suppress this part? of my personality or not. I mean, for heterosexual teachers. I'm sure they're not even thinking like that. I know. I know. It's It does make me mad. It does. Um, but I guess where I'm at now is I've navigated my way through that and I, I see very much [00:41:00] my role now as, um, helping others to not have that experience and to actually really be open and true to themselves. Um, in teaching environments where with that sort of thing just doesn't happen. Um, it's it's really hard, because, I mean, the irony of it was was that this associate teacher was talking to me. I mean, the all the kids in the class knew [00:41:30] her husband's name, knew her kids, could tell you details about them. That was something that was openly shared and happy with. But the part of my identity that, um, revealed that, um, I can't remember whether they had a boyfriend at the time, but or or something like that, um couldn't be shared with them that that's just wrong. That's just truly and utterly wrong. And it's such a double standard, and I'm just I'm gutted that it [00:42:00] impacted me so much looking back. So do you think Rainbow teachers offer something different to the two classes? Yes and no. Um, yes, because they do offer a difference. And, um, a way of normalising, um, a perceived difference. Um, and they [00:42:30] by being open about it, they can really help. And, um, yeah, help. Help students to to kind of embrace diversity and become aware of it and see it as as just another thing. And no, because I believe that every teacher is a teacher of diversity and it shouldn't You shouldn't just have to be, um, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender to [00:43:00] be a advocate for, um, for LGBTI people as students staff in the classroom. It should be every teacher as a teacher of diversity. And every teacher should be capable of talking about these things and framing them in positive terms so that they can lead, uh, lead the way in terms of getting diversity embraced by all students in a culture that that supports everyone in all [00:43:30] identities. So we do have something special to offer, but ultimately, at the end of the day, I would really like it to be every teacher that offers that those positive messages a few years ago. Well, actually, at the turn of last century. Um, so we're talking about a 15 II. I did a, um, a little documentary on, um, rainbow Education. And in that I think one of the teachers said they would not. [00:44:00] They they didn't have any gay students come to them because the gay students didn't want to be tarred with the same brush. Does that happen still? Or is that Is that a thing of the past? Um, not not in my context. Um, I think that well, well, there's two things like I mean, we we run our diversity group. And I'm, um, one of the co facilitators of there. And we we coordinate its its day to day work. And also, the students have come to [00:44:30] me directly or come to the other teachers involved directly. And so there's not that, uh, not the sort of stigmas attached to to that per se. However, there are other students in the school who are out and happy to be out and not involved with us in any specific way. So I don't think the reason for that is, though being tar with the same brush, and being part of that community is, in some way, um, perceived as a negative thing. I think that some people don't need that [00:45:00] kind of community. Might get enough support from their friends or or their family or, um, outside of that. But I certainly like to think our existence helps them in in some way, shape or form in terms of, um, helping the school community to sort of embrace that culture and and be more open with people that are out in the school. So are there a number of rainbow teachers at at Newlands? Yes. Yes. We are really lucky to have a community of us. Um, [00:45:30] we're we're very lucky that, uh, Deputy principal, um, David Pegram is is a, um is out and, um, very much a sort of leader for the whole school in in this regard. And he was one of the key people, um, for me in coming to the school and getting rid of that baggage that I'd come in with and learning to kind of, um [00:46:00] self accept. And I remember one conversation I had with him when I was we were talking about what would happen if I was asked if I was gay and I'd say, Well, what if I I think my response would be to say, Now is not the time to ask that we want to deal with this learning. We're focusing on this, but after class, you can You can do that. And I thought that that was, um, fine. But his response to [00:46:30] that was, um, that's wrong. What you are doing there is that you are saying to that person that or the person in the back of the class that you're not happy to answer that question and the person in the back of the class who might be dealing with their own sexuality is reading your your lack of openness to deal with that question as meaning that your sexuality is somehow other or different, or has some sort of negative terms around it. He really challenged me on [00:47:00] that, and that was that was quite a key moment to turn that around. So there's him. Um, there's also a number of others. Um, there's there's Kirsty, who runs the the group with us, Um, but also other, um out teachers who, um, are happy enough to be out, um, be known to be and and that's really great. It's a great community of us. We're all very different. But, um, it's it's fantastic that there is. [00:47:30] There is a group of us and and there should be at just about every school as well. Just a question of whether or not they're as open as as what we are, because we've got that that strong culture that's led from the top. Do you think there are teachers or support staff that are possibly rainbow but aren't out? I mean, do you Do you think there are still people in the closet at New? I don't I don't think so. Um, I think we've We've got [00:48:00] such a positive environment that it's, um it's likely that we are. We're providing the best possible opportunity, uh, to come out. So if there are, there are people that are that are still closeted. I'd say that's because of, um, a range of other issues that we we have no control over. But certainly the culture and the the spaces is extremely safe. So, um, I'd be surprised if there were, um, anyone that was significantly suppressing something, [00:48:30] given the work environment that we've got. So talk to me about the the diversity group. How did that come about? It came about when, um, I became a dean about four years ago, and, um, in that process, I became quite connected with a with A with 100 and 90 odd students who I was responsible for their pastoral care and, um, a lot of administration around their learning. [00:49:00] And as a result, that connection opened up a lot more conversations that were quite close to, um, supporting them, dealing with a whole number of different issues. And one of the issues that came up was, um for for a student was, um that he was identifying as gay. And, um, we ended up talking about it and I. I don't know whether he just saw me as an ally or I was in the right place at the right time or um or whatever. But just that conversation that [00:49:30] I had with him really was a huge trigger point for me in terms of spurring a whole lot of action that I really realised was necessary. And it was like, you know, the school has has had lots of support going on, sort of in an ad hoc kind of way. But it didn't have at any point sort of something that was publicly present and something that the whole school could uh, look [00:50:00] to as something that represented that these LGBTI plus people were supported in this model. Uh, so we needed something structural that was in place. So that's when we sort of started this. These conversations around forming a diversity group. We had a really supportive guidance counsellor, um, who was just absolutely awesome to work with. And she supported, um us to connect with a whole bunch of students that she was working with. And then we had a small [00:50:30] group that was suddenly meeting on a regular basis, um, to talk about things without, without all those stigmas that they felt were sometimes there amongst their friends and in the playground. And we connected them with each other, which I think was really important. Like I could see the journeys that were going on, where things that other people were also experiencing. And then we just grew and grew and grew from there. Um and then one of the key moments was [00:51:00] actually getting up at school. Uh, Kirsty and I delivered an assembly presentation, and this was this was a very key moment, because it is where I came out to the whole school. Um, and as did Kirsty by sort of saying that, um, you know, people of diverse sexualities and genders that are all around you. Um, there might be some people in your neighbourhood in your community. There are might be some people in the in this hall, and they are also here speaking [00:51:30] to you today, and that was a moment to say, Um, I'm a gay man and she's a lesbian woman. And we did that to the whole school and got this amazing response. Um, that was followed up. I taught my year 13 class afterwards, and they said I came over to the class late. I need a moment after the assembly. And when I walked into the class, they all formed a line around the door and did this big kind of clapping thing, which was just ridiculous. [00:52:00] I'll never forget that. That feeling of of going into that space like that, um they were incredible. And yeah, they were just I sort of I guess acknowledging, Um, first of all the bravery behind that, but just how, On board with the messages, they were as well. Yeah, I'm interested in language and why you use diversity as the name of the group. Like a diversity group rather than like LGBTI or Queer Strait alliance. What [00:52:30] is behind that? The question of language. Oh, this is a debate that we have all the time. Um, we really struggled in the group to come up with a name that represents us. And we've debated this on and on and on. We've come up with all sorts of different, um, permutations of of letters and and words and names and some names that were completely irrelevant [00:53:00] That would have solved the issue by being nothing that misrepresented anyone. Um, so we you know, we've really struggled with that. But diversity just seems to be the word that stuck, and we've just kept going with it, So we still really haven't formalised a name. Um, but diversity is something that I'm I'm quite comfortable with because I think it it has a strong connection with the New Zealand curriculum. So when I talk about it with other colleagues, and staff or, [00:53:30] um, other teachers from other schools. And what not diversity is something that is one of the key principles of of a New Zealand curriculum. And it encompasses, uh, students, um, that identify as diverse, and the ministry often use it to talk about diversity in terms of ethnicity, and they often leave it at that. Um and that's that's a bit disappointing, but I think we're we're moving closer and closer to a time where we're going to have, um, Diversity [00:54:00] is embracing proper diversity of every single individual student's identity. And at that point, maybe we can go back to being something more specific. That recognises LGBTI, um, and something that is more, um, reflective of a particular difference. But it's it's just I find language fascinating, and I'm I'm keen to keep going with that [00:54:30] debate. Um, and I'm constantly aware that I might be making mistakes around that in terms of maybe exclusion when I'm not meaning to. But it's something that yeah, it's just part of the conversation and and needs to be part of that conversation in order to get it right. What? What are the kind of words that, um young people now are using to, um, describe themselves. I mean, you you're using words like gay and things like that. So, I mean, what are what are young people [00:55:00] saying? I'm learning new ones. Just about every week we've got, um we've got a group of a very big range of of identities. Um, but I guess that well, there's two things on that matter. 11 is the fact that what we've got is a bunch of people that actually don't [00:55:30] necessarily care about what it is that they identify as, and they don't necessarily, um, promote their their word or or their identity. Um, actively. So there are some people in the groups that are diverse in some way, shape or form. Um, and it might be in terms of their sexuality or gender, but they're not parading around the world that connects to them, um, in any way where everyone has to connect with with that word, but the the other. The other point I make that matter [00:56:00] that certainly come up through the group is that, um, other staff and colleagues, they sort of commented that, you know, there's a new identity coming out every every day. Um, how can we keep track of this? All this is this is all new. Can't they just be gay? Straight, Bisexual? Trans, you know, keep it simple, guys. Um, and the response I always have to That is, actually all all these diverse identities and all these [00:56:30] diverse words are there. Um, if if they come up, it's it's completely safe to ask them about what that identity means and find out more about what that is. And if that person doesn't want to share that, then they won't share it. It's not a problem. But if if you come across a word which you're not familiar with, it's fine to have a conversation about it. It doesn't need to be a scary thing that's completely otherworldly. Um, it just needs to be part of someone's ongoing professional development, [00:57:00] really. And keep asking the questions and you'll learn. And I guess it also kind of leads into using pronouns and what pronouns to use as well. Exactly. So we do have that issue at school. We've we've got a number of people, um, that that use the pronouns which the heteronormative teachers don't expect. Um and that challenges some people, um, a lot. And [00:57:30] and then there's some English teachers who are really up in arms about the their, um, their day and that that's that's problematic. But, um, the right conversations are happening in order to make that change take place. And it's it's just about framing those conversations in positive ways that actually celebrate the identity rather than, um talking about it as being right and [00:58:00] wrong, like it's OK to make mistakes. I think this is one of the things that teachers find hardest is that they fear that by making a mistake, they will have caused irrevocable damage. And it's not true. You, you can make mistakes and the the students that I'm working with, one of the things that we've worked with them about is what to do when someone does make a mistake and does misrepresent them in some way, shape or form. And it's using that as a learning opportunity rather than getting offended [00:58:30] or, um, thinking that it was a deliberate form of bullying which it can be. And there are instances that have come up, um, in terms of peer to peer bullying, where where, um, using the wrong pronouns has has been deliberately done to bully a student. But in the in the most cases, most people just need to know and just need help to understand. Um, because it is new for a whole lot of these teachers that [00:59:00] have been teaching a long time, and that's a hard one to sort of change all of a sudden. So give me an example. Say, for instance, um, that a teacher uses the wrong pronoun. What? What advice do you then give to the student or the teacher? Uh, it's it's just to challenge that first of all, like we don't let it pass. Um, so you you would suggest to the student to challenge it in the classroom, but in a polite way. [00:59:30] I mean, so it depends on the context. Sometimes there might be, you know, teaching the whole class and a teacher. Um, you know, a big class discussion and a teacher might use the wrong pronoun. The reality is, most of the students in the class are probably gonna know they've used the wrong pronoun. So there's probably someone else that's actually gonna step in there and say something. Um, but more likely they're not, um it it's gonna the conversation is gonna move so quickly. It doesn't doesn't [01:00:00] get acknowledged at that point. But my advice to the the students is always to make sure that the teachers are aware of what they did, Um, so that they can get it right the next time. Um, because most of the time, if they're not aware, then well, it's not gonna change. But the other thing that that more often happens than not is actually as soon as when this happens to me. When? When? Whenever I've used the wrong pronouns, it's often after it leaves my mouth that I immediately [01:00:30] realised, and I have to come back and acknowledge it straight away. Um, so usually there's most people are sort of aware of what they've done as soon as they've done it so they can fix it themselves. And do you find that students other students will will actually kind of, um, go into bat for Yeah. Yeah, so? So there's a lot. There's there's kind of protection there, you know, people back each other up. Definitely, definitely. And that's that's the thing about this. This young generation [01:01:00] there is so much goodwill and so much, um, openness to being different. Well, I mean, nothing's changed in terms of bullying. There's there's still that sort of stuff that's out there. But on the whole, this young generation, they are extremely keen on, um, understanding difference and embracing whatever that difference is in some way, shape or form. Um, you know, [01:01:30] there's a lot of friends that are really, really good for the students that that do come out as as something Um, yeah, we're We're very lucky to have, like lots of supportive friend networks. And just generally, on the whole, this is this is the idea of the school culture that's lead from the top. Um, it's It's in place where everything's framed up in positive terms around diversity. And as a result, when bullying happens, it's acted [01:02:00] upon. Um, when someone comes out, they're supported. Um, and that just feeds down all the way through the school. Is there a difference? Do you see a difference between bullying and homophobic? Transphobic biphobic, intersex bullying? Yes and no. Like I. I feel like I My personal experience is that we don't have homophobia [01:02:30] biphobia transphobia we we don't actually have it come up a lot. Um, and I know there are schools that experience a lot more, and as a result, there's there's probably more that other schools could could tell you about that. But I I think bullying is all very similar in in many different ways in whatever form it takes. It's about, [01:03:00] um, it's about identifying a weakness and, um, praying on that weakness and and some way, shape or form. And so, essentially, it's it's all, I guess, very similar. But we are. We're really lucky that, um, we do have a a very safe environment where we can actually act on this stuff when it comes up. And how do you act on it? [01:03:30] Uh, we talk to the person that has has done this bad thing. Um, and often a conversation is all it needs, and it's about identifying the wrong. That's done. Um, how the victim feels and what what was the root of the comment that was made? Um, and then in doing so that either stops or or there can be punitive ventures that come down the track if it [01:04:00] if it comes up more often, Um, but we're also very lucky that a lot of, um, students monitor each other, and there's a lot of students that will step in place and do that work for the teachers in many way shapes or forms. Um, sometimes in ways that makes it worse. But, um, most of the time it's it's for the right reasons, and it has a positive effect. And what about bullying of, of teachers and staff? I mean, do you find that [01:04:30] you're bullied either by other staff or by some of the students? No, not at all. And I've never had an a negative comment made to me. Um, since being completely open with my identity, Um, I've I've never experienced anything that was that was homophobic, um, or anything that I would perceive as as bullying. Um, I'm sure there's been things said behind my back. I'm sure someone's posted [01:05:00] something on Facebook at some point or another. Um, but I don't think I I just haven't experienced anything to my face. And that's again, a reflection of the school culture that's that's lead from the top. So in the Diversity group, what are some of the kind of current issues that are being discussed? Um one of the key ones is parents. Um, coming out to the parents is is an extremely hard process for, um, a number of of students. [01:05:30] And there's all sorts of things that they get in the way there, Um, and navigating that is quite interesting. Um, so helping students through what that conversation might be like, Um, how to do it in a in a you know, positive, safe way, Um, safety plans for if, if things go wrong, Um, just talking through [01:06:00] we haven't done any role plays, but I guess that's probably the next thing that might come to mind. But, um, often, just that once you get these topics started, the students are just talking to each other about, um their different experiences and what their thoughts are and and what their friend from another school experienced. And what this, um, what they saw online about this thing and and whatnot. Um, and it's all very positive things to have those conversations where whereby there's no sort of stigmas [01:06:30] attached. They can say what they want about the issues without having anyone being judgmental or anything like that. So they, um, yeah, parents is, is is quite a big thing. Um, there's also a bit of conversation about how, um, religion fits into the picture. Um, we do have, you know, a significant religious community out in, out in nuance, and that's that's something [01:07:00] that, um, needs to be navigated. It's with a lot of goodwill, and there's a lot of openness to that, um out there, which is which is really good. Um, but also, a lot of our conversations are, um, in around how to grow the school culture and what to do. So we're we're looking at going from a diversity group, which one has to identify and access the group. And it's it's in secret [01:07:30] because there are a number of students in there that are not out, um, to many or anybody. Um, apart from the people that are in the group. So we we keep it a secret to make sure we're supporting those students that that come into it. Um, but we want to develop into a quest. Straight alliance. Um, it's something that anyone in the school can participate in, and it just be part of continuing that culture of, um, opening up spaces to talk without any stigmas [01:08:00] and, um, you know, open and accepting environments that that the straight students can access, as well as, um as well as the the queer or or gender diverse students. And then as a result, it's just about increasing the openness and the visibility of of those students and those issues, um, so that they can be part of the conversation. And within the school itself. What What kind of issues are kind of cropping up? Um, in the domestic [01:08:30] group, I I'm thinking of things like, um, there's been some newspaper coverage of, uh, gender neutral toilets. Things like that. Definitely so. Gender neutral toilets and gender neutral uniforms are, um, the two biggies And, um, the group has talked a lot about that. And, um, they've talked a lot about how they might make change, and they definitely want to change. [01:09:00] Um, and I'm I'm very careful about my involvement in those conversations, As I think if that change is gonna happen to be by the students, it's for the students. And, um, I think my position as a teacher enforcing the rules that are currently in place is is brings attention into that. Um, but the students are definitely talking about. They definitely want it. And they, um, are very keen to to make it happen in some shape or form [01:09:30] and and coming from the students, I mean, that must lead to a a real sense of empowerment that they actually can affect change? Absolutely. Um, absolutely. And that's where the best kind of change can happen. The the ones that are actually driven by the needs of the students and that come from the students and that lead from the students. Like the examples that we've seen in Wellington high and on. So, um, they have definitely been led by the students in, um, significant ways, and that's really positive. I think that's the right way of doing [01:10:00] it. Um, I'm really, um it's fantastic to see See what's happened there. Um, and I definitely think I definitely hope that new ones won't be too far behind. Has, uh, working with the diversity group has that given you kind of, um uh, connections with with with other groups, things like kind of schools out or or or similar? Definitely. I've had, uh, a couple of opportunities that have popped [01:10:30] up from there like, uh being a member on the PPT a rainbow task force. Uh, but also, I've become involved in, um, inside out as well and working with them. Um, I'm an executive advisor on their board, and they do some fantastic initiatives around, um, supporting, uh, schools to be safer places for, um, for students of, um, diverse, uh, sexuality, sexes, and genders. And they [01:11:00] do initiatives like, um, the day of Silence, which has had a huge uptake in, um, New Zealand schools and hopefully will continue to grow this year. Um, but also youth who, Which was on last weekend, which had, um I think about 100 and 50 people come together from all part of of New Zealand and take some workshops and, um, some great networking and support for for students that are going through, um, various things And, um, really, really great positive [01:11:30] environment to, um, support all those youth. Um, but they're just a great organisation, which has the philosophy of youth working for youth. And I'm really on board with that message because, um, like I was saying about why I came into teaching, I really do feel like the young people that we are teaching have the ability to make change if we believe in them and give them the environments where they can. And inside out is a great example of that, um, started up by [01:12:00] be and turned into just a beautiful organisation which is doing so much to help, um, schools and the wider community. I came across you and the diversity group, Um, because there was a quite a a large piece on TV If you you were part of a current affairs story. Uh, how was that? How how was it to to to be filmed and how was how was it received? [01:12:30] Um, that was a fascinating experience. Yes. Uh, that came about because, um, Hayden Jones the reporter had done a piece about, um, Robbie Mason, Um who was a who had come out as, um, as gay and was a role I think he was training for, um, he was in the Olympic training squad at the time of the story. Um, so an out professional sports person, that was, [01:13:00] um it was a really lovely piece, and he got really positive response to that. So he was looking for some sort of follow up story that the same kind of thing. And so he eventually tracked me down through, um, the PPT a task force. Um, and they got him in touch with me. And we got everything into action, um, and navigated a few hurdles in terms of, um, privacy around the kids and who could be involved in what sort [01:13:30] of things needed to happen and whether or not the school was the right school to do that. And then we had a day of of filming and, um shot the piece, which was which was really positive. And I'm I'm really glad it's out there. Um, and I've done as much as I can to circulate what I think the limitations and what the missing bits of the story were, um, and I. I mean, one of the things I was disappointed that despite all the things that I talked about in terms of gender and gender identity [01:14:00] that it was missing, it really was about the L and the G and the LGBTI. And there's there's a much wider world out there. Um, and the story, while it was really great for the L and the G, um, there's there's much more to the much more to the picture. And so we we had the day of filming the the, um the story aired, um, boarded by some very interesting comments by Mike Hosking. [01:14:30] And then the emails have been flooding and and I'm still getting the odd thing, um, from all sorts of places. And so what was really interesting is just how wide, um, the net has been spread from from doing that in the mainstream media, Um, and from the huge range of people that I've been contacted by, um, from ex students, um, who have since come out, Um, and, you know, an ex student who, um, was a girl [01:15:00] when I taught her and is now identifies as a boy. Um, and it's really interesting that, um, so many parents have got in touch. Um, parents that have, um, you know, a gay son is one of the ones. I'm thinking of a colleague who who works at the school, who has a gay son who didn't come out till very late in life and just how much the story impacted her. Um, as [01:15:30] soon as the story aired, um, I was at my parents to watch it. And we got a phone call from, um, my dad's colleague, who he hadn't talked to for a huge number of years who came up basically on tears on the phone because his son had come out as gay. Um, recently and he found that really hard. And he basically said that a story like this, he needed to see this earlier, and he's so he was quite emotional. Um, so you know, the the Net has been cast in a really wide [01:16:00] way, and it's great that that the story has impacted so many people. So I'm very, very proud that it's out there. How do you personally deal with that kind of flood of of response? Because I imagine if you weren't expecting it, something to I don't want to do it every day, that's for sure. Um, I mean, it was it was really humbling. So, um, I guess you know so much positive reinforcement that the work that I've [01:16:30] been doing and and what I'm fighting for is is something that people are supporting and people think of the right thing. And that's that's really cool. Um, it's yeah, really, really cool. So that was That was nice. And, um, it just took time. I've replied to everyone, I think, Um and it was It was really nice to to Yeah, have that that happened. It was really, really cool. [01:17:00] Um, but completely overwhelming. It was really, really full of just how how much? Um, it just how many people have contacted me and and just how wide that actually was. I. I didn't expect it to do so much, but apparently a lot of people watch seven sharp. It was the first time I watched it. So And are you able to use that? That that that kind of exposure and [01:17:30] and springboard off it in in some way, is it? Um, yeah, there's a few few things that that, um, I've got going on. So from that I've managed to have these conversations with Victoria University and trying to get, um, something going going on in in schools. Um, I've had a huge uptake, and I run a Facebook page, um, called Rainbow Teachers NZ, where I'm constantly posting links about, um, diversity, teaching in the classroom and everything that relates to, um, being leaders in your school. [01:18:00] Um, and around these issues, and, um, that's that's increased in in likes dramatically. So I've been trying to be very active in making sure the links that have followed that story have been really positive. Um, I got some attention from the UK from our teacher dot org, and, um asked me to write an article which I I've posted up there, Um, which, which was really cool. I'm not sure how much of, [01:18:30] um, the online content I've got is because of because of that. Um, but that was that was really cool. And just Yeah, um I, I think that what I said or what I've said following the story is that if I could do this kind of work full time, if someone could give me a job where I could, you know, coordinate, um, various schools and their initiatives that are around diversity teaching or, um, be a traveller that, [01:19:00] um that went into into schools and evaluated and assessed how how well they were, uh, doing this gave them some sort of frameworks and some sort of measures for what they were doing to to make sure that well, the LGBTI plus students are are safe for for a start and, um, that they're supported. Um, you know, I'd love to do that kind of work. Um, but I think at this point, doing that kind of story and doing the work that I'm [01:19:30] doing at New College is is enough for me now. Um, but later on down the line, I'm I'm certainly going to be, um, pushing more because III I do want change to happen, and I'll look for the best ways of making that change.
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