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Hello. I'm Jack Perkins, and I've worked for 50 years over 50 years for Radio New Zealand. 40 of those in the field of documentary radio documentary. Um, I. I co founded Spectrum in 1972 Spectrum is very much an out and about, um, capturing the moment, Uh, social history, human interest, um, form of radio. It's not [00:00:30] usually about static interviews, um, of the type we're doing now, but rather cap capturing life and activity on the on the wing. Uh, as it were as real people in their work and activities, enjoying themselves, getting angry, um, despair, uh, their prejudices their, um uh, their biases, Um, in other words, trying to trying to capture [00:01:00] life and give it vicariously to a listener in the living room or the car or the kitchen. When that started out in the early seventies, was there any other kind of radio doing a similar thing? Uh, spasmodically. But but it's really the start of spectrum was very much geared to the advances of portable tape recorders before 1972. Or you could say the fifties sixties [00:01:30] the, um um, radio was very studio bound and studio. The problem with the studio bound is that it gives, you know, lovely quality. And, um, you've got a lovely acoustic and there's a technician controlling things beautifully, but it's also a touch sterile. And it tended to attract the kind of radio where professionals would give you, you know, his story and would talk about, [00:02:00] um, you know, the the the land wars or something like that, or an educationist would give his opinions. In other words, it kept to the point where real ordinary people, um, who didn't have a professional background they tended to be excluded. And that was the whole, um, revolution of the portable tape recorder that allowed producers to get out in the real world in all the nooks [00:02:30] and crannies of New Zealand and find people with real stories. Um, who, up till then, the the The first thing people used to say in those days is, Oh, you know, I've got I can't tell you anything. You know, I'm not. I'm not being a general, a legislator or a, uh, what have I got to say, You know, and this person you would discover lived on the wrong side of a of a river for 60 years. Uh, a woman perhaps had six kids on the, um, [00:03:00] you know, the kitchen table, kinds of stories, and yet they they didn't think they were important. So it it, um it brought a new kind of sound. It altered the sound of radio, the portable tape recorder, and Owen and myself were on hand. And it's pure, um, chance we were on hand at the right time to cash in on this and to mine this rich [00:03:30] seam of human experience in New Zealand, which just hadn't been touched before. Of course, that included the the the War years, 1st and 2nd, even back to the Boer War. The, um, the Depression. Um, all those events were great melting pots of human experience and deserved to be preserved at that time. Was there resistance from the kind of radio establishment to open it up to voices [00:04:00] of Joe public Initially, a little bit, perhaps a little bit of suspicion that that, you know, somebody might might say a swear word which was still frowned upon a little bit, but that really dissipated quite quickly. Once the popularity and power of this new form of, uh out and about radio was Well, it spoke for itself, and it just couldn't be denied. So, you know, there was, [00:04:30] um No, it took off and we didn't look back. Really? So what was the kind of initial thought behind Spectrum? You know what? What? How How how was it pitched? Well, Owen was really the founder of it, more so than me. I was I was a sorcerer's apprentice. Um, and, uh, hop had a as we call him, Hop, uh, had a technical background, and he, at an early stage, saw the potential [00:05:00] of the portable tape recorder, the potential of this new technology, and and, um uh, So it really went from there, and And we were We were just after the kinds of stories of ordinary people doing extraordinary things. Um, ordinary people doing ordinary things, for that matter. I mean, there's a lot of interest in the ordinary if it's talked about and, uh, you know, brought out in the in the right way. [00:05:30] So that that was it. We weren't looking for politicians and statesmen and, uh, generals and all those kind of people. We were just looking for ordinary people with bloody good stories. to tell. So how did you find those people? Well, initially, Um, you know, um uh, by murder and, uh, uh, wrenching people's arms off And, uh, you know, flogging stories from wherever we could. In other words, there was no set way. But [00:06:00] we quickly gained a reputation, and people started to feed us with once they realised that this kind of thing was underway. And that's what radio, um uh was doing then, you know, there was no shortage. We we had a constant feed of, um of stories. And of course, you'd pick up things from newspapers and books and things like that. You're saying, portable recorders. Can you describe the kind of gear that you were using at the time? Because for a lot of people, [00:06:30] a portable recorder nowadays as a as a small digital device. Yes, yes. Um, the gear we used in those days, um, was the Well, the there were. There were various, uh, small, small recording. Well, smallish recording devices, but the the West German UUE Ah, I think you are. Yeah, or it might have had an H in it. Anyway. Um uh, it took [00:07:00] five. I think it was four or five D cell batteries. Um, it would only play a 15 inch spool type. So it was very, you know, you had to be on the QV all the time that your tape was running out. You had to stop putting a new tape on. Your batteries was running down and the damn things weighed about £50. So if you were slogging up a mountain, you know, in fact, in those days you had to be fit to, uh, to do [00:07:30] the real out and about, you know, into the bush, um, down the river kind of stuff because you were carrying several, um, several sets of batteries. A whole load of five inch tapes, which and, you know, were heavy. Uh, the gear itself, which was, uh, the size of a shoe box. Uh, roughly a rather large shoe box. Um, so you know, you you you had to cut all this round and, um, getting [00:08:00] into isolated places. It was a bit of a slog. A five inch tape. How how much recording would that have? Could have now? So you were lucky 12 minutes safely. If we could of hour, 12 minutes or so, you'd see it coming to an end, you know? But, um, you you had to stop and change tape, and that was, well, people accepted it. But, I mean, somebody would be just getting into the flow and, um, and bang, [00:08:30] you know, hang on. I've got to change tapes. I mean, the the modern device that we use in RNZ now, the sound device. If anyone had told me in those days that this is what I would be using 50 odd years later, I would have, um, suggested they, uh, they they don a straitjacket. You know, I mean, it was just unbelievable what modern machines are like. And, of course, the microphones were, um they weren't bad. They [00:09:00] they were. They were, but they were studio microphones, and you had taking them outside. They were very wind sensitive. Um, and, uh, the little valia, um, mic that we used used to see it on television around someone's neck. We used stayed on the field because it was small and obtrusive. And it also had a nice travel tip up. So you could hear the birdies tweeting quite nicely, you know? And this was AM radio, you know, we had frequency cut off [00:09:30] and the highs. So we would use the little Laval mics too. But, I mean, compared with the mics nowadays, um, you know, the modern mics, the SM 61 that I use all the time is a superb mic. Um, it's, um And we also used to use, um, slightly directional mics, um, cardioid to try and minimise background noise. And the problem is that the low frequencies of background noise, [00:10:00] um, go around corners and the high frequencies miss the mic. So you're getting a low rumble on your street noise or whatever other noise. In other words, it distorts the reality of the sound that you're really hearing in the field and gives it a base rumble. So that was just something we had to put up with. And, um, or the you know, the wind rain, Uh, especially wind wind, I can [00:10:30] remember. Oh, it must be about 15 years ago when we got the SM series of mics, the the series. I went out one very windy day in Wellington the first time I'd ever heard real wind on a on a recording. You know, the way it sounds in the trees the rush of of, uh because in the old days, when you went out in the wind, all you get would be bass blackout. It would just rush across [00:11:00] the mic and move the ribbon or whatever it was. To the extent that you you'd go, you'd go, and that's all you get. You'd hear nothing of the reality of the sound in the trees or in the wires or whatever. So was that something you were trying to do in the early days to capture that kind of reality of what was happening out in the in the field? Well, yes, well, I mean, what we wanted was, well, we did a lot of of sit down and talk at that stage, um, [00:11:30] to people who had had, you know, the experiences that were quite extraordinary. Uh, we don't do that so much now, we, uh, for various reasons which are concerned with the way RNZ itself has developed where the sit down and talk with many of those programmes now. And Kim Hill and, um uh, the afternoons and that kind of thing. So spectrum now differentiates itself by having a feeling of place, Uh, of something [00:12:00] that that's outside. Nothing to do with the studio. But back in those days, we were about the only programme doing the, um, the kind of oral history type stuff and doing it consistently every week. So we didn't mind sitting down and talking to an old soldier or whatever. Um, but we also were very concerned to get into the the real nitty gritty of of of life. [00:12:30] You know, we do things like, um, uh, I've I've I went through a swamp in, um, just north of with the, um with the with the SI S. Uh, contingent. They were going through a test of destruction, and so was I. Except I wasn't carrying the weight. They were, um but I was certainly buggered at the end of it. They were more buggered. But, I mean, the what? We've what when you get close to that kind of thing and see people, [00:13:00] young men and extremists in the middle of the night and the swamp up to your waist, I mean, that's the kind of radio we we we were looking to do. That's an extreme example, mind you. But you know, if if it was a programme about a parking warden. Then you wouldn't sit down in an office and talk to the parking warden. You'd get out with him on the beat, you'd follow him around and you'd get irate, um, motorists coming up to him and say [00:13:30] what the bloody hell you've given me a ticket for and you get the exchange. You know, that's the reality now, no amount of talking about it. It can be the same as you capturing that exchange. You know, the frustration and annoyance and the the parking warden trying to be a diplomatic. So you know that that's the kind of thing that we were looking for. It's very much, Um, that kind of recording is very much in the moment. [00:14:00] So I'm thinking like I mean, if the soldiers talking about a war experience, they're reflecting back. But this parking warden is actually happening in the moment. You don't know what's going to happen, which must be really exciting. It must have a different energy. Oh, yes, it does. And of course, what's important is the listener. So the listener in his or her living room kitchen car, they're vicariously sharing that tension that you know, they're [00:14:30] on the edge, and they know that this is they don't know how it's gonna turn out either, you know, I mean, that's always true when you're hearing an account on radio. But when you when you're actually there and, um, there there's a different quality to it rather than just somebody real, you know, talking about the, um, whatever the events are in the in the past, one is present tense as you as you were, and radio [00:15:00] is about presence present tense. And the more present tense you can have in radio. Um, the stronger it is, um, it seem it communicates far better. For example, if I'm doing a documentary about the Depression, I would and I was using sound effects of the riots in Auckland in 1931. I think it was, um then I would use my script would be in the present tense. I would be saying, [00:15:30] you know, the the shop window here is is broken, not was broke, was smashed, was shattered, Is is shattered. The man lying in the gutter has a has a scalp wound of, you know. So I'm allowing the sound effects and my script to bring something very vivid through in the present tense rather than putting it in the past, even though the listener cerebrally [00:16:00] knows that it's 80 years ago or whatever. It's that presence and the same. I mean, it's the same when you watch television. When you watch a a drama about the Victorian era, it's there, it's present, it's right in front of you. And it's that same thing we want to capture in radio as much as possible. I'm not saying it's always possible to do that. You can't always do that in the news or something like that, and not always in every documentary you would do [00:16:30] but where the opportunity offers. And and that's really the connection with the portable tape recorder. That's that's what you're trying to capture when you're out in the field in those early days. How much recording would you do to make a half hour programme? Well, it varied enormously. Um, sometimes you have to. For example, we would we would do portraits of a little township like black ball. I remember doing years [00:17:00] ago. Well, you know, you're trudging around black ball, finding the the characters and the people who've got a good story. The people who who wear their history on their sleeve as it were and and can recreate it. They're the people you're looking for. Well, you know, you might go down a few blind alleys before you get that, so you might end up with quite a few hours of material, but you know damn well you're not gonna use a lot of it. So that would be at one end [00:17:30] of the, um, you know the scale. So for a half hour programme, you might, you know, have have recorded three or four hours. Um, at the other end of the scale is where you find a person. I can remember so many of them who who were such good recurs, who could relive and I use that word relive, deliberately relive their experiences. Not [00:18:00] just remember things, relive things. And that's a talent. I mean, you you as an interviewer. It's your job to support and and bring that out. But a person like that, they can give you a half an hour programme almost in in 1 to 1. You know, you can talk to them for half an hour. You've just about got a programme and unedited and and And I've met several people like that, you know, they're quite remarkable Raconteurs [00:18:30] and they really require a minimal of guidance or, you know, probing and questioning. It's just how it comes and it's all there. But I mean, you're very lucky to find that kind of person, but they do exist. So there there's the range, I mean, anywhere in from 1 to 1 to 4 hours for half an hour. One of the things I really admire about you is that you have a very, uh, everyman approach and that you can talk to such a wide [00:19:00] group of people and get them to talk back to you. And I'm wondering, Do you have any tips for people that don't naturally have that kind of every man? Well, it's partly a kind of philosophy if if I know that's a highfalutin word. But I and Owen, or was it rubbed off on to me from Owen? The idea that you're talking to someone who's had a particular experience of the world, [00:19:30] they are giving you something. It is a gift. It's not you. I it's not you going along and you know um, kind of catching a politician by the throat and ringing out of them some something they don't want to tell you. This is the kind of work I've been. And now I'm not saying that that hardline interview that requires a whole other tech form of technique. But my approach is that I have an informant [00:20:00] who deserves respect, um, and integrity and that you have to genuinely feel that it it it It's not something you can just, you know, wear on your sleeve and pretend I. I don't think perhaps, if you're a very good actor, you could. But basically everyone I goes to I have. You know, I go to them for a reason that they have something to give and that give is very important. [00:20:30] And there are various little techniques, such as I always say to people, It's, you know, I. I never use the word interview. I always say, I want to have a chat about this, and I and I want it to be a conversation. No, of course, what happens is that an interview is not a conversation, in fact, but it should sound conversational. So your technique is that you want them to think [00:21:00] in terms of conversation, just like you would be chatting across a dinner table. Um, so that's the kind of mood you're, uh you're you're wanting to evoke in them, but really, they have to sense that you're interested. You really are interested. And they sense that not just in your words, you know, expressing interest, but in your face, they can see it in the in your eyes and the the way that you as they're talking, [00:21:30] the way that your face facial expression, your eyes, your hand gestures, everything, um, probably just be one hand gesture because I'll be holding the mic with the other. And you don't start gesturing with the mic hand. But, um, all those things add to add together, um, to get to make a person feel that what they have to give is worthwhile. And we had quite a a job breaking that down, especially with the women in [00:22:00] the seventies. Women, um especially rural women, uneducated. Very often they would say, Oh, no, my old man, he's He's been the farmer. He's done all the work here. I I've just, you know, got the dinner dinner ready, kind of thing. In fact, she'd had six kids and she'd put up with isolation and storms and rivers flooding and, you know, slogging into town, you know? But that was unimportant, you see, So [00:22:30] sometimes you had to really talk to them to convince them once they they were convinced that their life was of interest, not just to you, but to thousands of townies and country people. And but, you know, whatever. And that they would be able to talk directly, 1 to 1. With this vast range of people, you know, their eyes are light up, And, um, and it it would give another dimension to their sometimes slightly [00:23:00] boring lives. And they would, you know, really enter into it. And, uh and of course, that's what you want. And that's where that term reliving comes in. You can always sense when somebody's reliving and not just retelling. There's a there's a quality about it. Um, it's they're almost looking inwards, you know, Um and that's you know what? We That's what we're looking for. [00:23:30] And of course, you know the various techniques of questioning and you know you're not you're not asking those formal kinds of questions Once you get a rapport going between the two of you, you know you'll you'll nudge them kind of in the ribs a little bit and you'll you'll smile and say, Oh, come on, You didn't really think that, did you? Or you or you'll say, Well, I, I can barely imagine that. Just just expand on it. You know? [00:24:00] What were you thinking at the time? What were you seeing at the time? Um, you know, um, all those kinds of these are not the normal questions. You hear? Um, in the average interview with a with A you know, an official where you're just looking for information, you're looking for far something far more than just information you don't want the raw facts of, um you know how they got across the [00:24:30] river when it was in full flood? You know, you're wanting some of those personal little details of how scared they were, how exciting it was, Um, and just what it was like to look down into the vortex or whatever. You know, all that, Um, and that's all part of this reliving, reliving thing. And of course, once a person is going, um, it used to. That's why the 15 inch tape used to be a problem. Because you had to say, Hang on. You know, stop there. [00:25:00] Just hold that. You know, here they are in the boat, nearly swamped, and you're changing the tape. Then you have to make sure you back up and, you know, just let's go back a bit and just and then you move into it again, you get you get up to speed again. So all that kind of thing. So how long did it take you to change a tape on in those kind of situations? Not very long. No. You'd whip it off and whip it on pretty quickly, but it was just, you know, and sometimes they keep talking anyway, [00:25:30] and you wouldn't mind That keeps, keeps them on, keeps the the engine running, you know? So, um, but of course, those kinds of problems now with flash cards, you know, where you've got a six hours of, uh, high quality stereo, um, and a nine hour battery. It's It's almost made recording. Too easy taking the skill out of it, taking the chance out of it. But, um, [00:26:00] I guess when you're on location and you're actually at that river and they're talking about something that may have happened 30 40 years ago. Just actually be. The fact you're at the river gives you so much more kind of stimulus in terms of, you know, visual stimulation sound. Yes, I mean, there there are two different things. It's a sit down talk interview, which is what I've been describing now, uh, where they are. They are in their mind's eye reliving, and there's the other [00:26:30] kind of interview where you would take them. Which is not always possible, of course, where you would take somebody to a location and the whole stimulus of the the place that the place that's relevant with memories, Um, and they're seeing it and you might be hearing it, you know, rushing past in the background. So there's there's the sound effect, but it's not the sound effect that's it's the effect on them. Um, that's important. [00:27:00] It's the stimulus that that place evokes. And then and it'll show in their voice and, um, and of course, they will then be able to relate change, which is quite interesting. Very often, you know, they'll say, Oh well, the jetty is there now, but that that all wins in the in the flood in 1945 you know, And, uh, it used to be a little rickety jetty, and, uh, there used to be a couple of rowboats there. Look at it. Now you've got a a great, um, you know, million [00:27:30] dollar yacht there or something. You know, it's that so you'll see you. You get the opportunity to, uh, evoke the changes that have occurred in in a in a place, perhaps not always, but essentially, it's that quality that comes into a person's voice when you know they're being affected. There's something being induced in them, Uh, by a by a place by she. You know, the sheer, [00:28:00] the qualities of it. You know it when you hear it. Do you have any tips for getting an interviewee or an informant to paint a picture of a particular place? Like, how do you get them to describe what they see? Because for a lot of people, radio is a um Well, it's an unusual medium, isn't it? Because I mean you, you're restricted to just sound. So how do you get people to kind of describe places Well, [00:28:30] for for for a start, not everyone can do it. Um, the more familiar, the more memory filled or significance filled, is the scene in front of them. The the more interesting will be the description. So you're not looking for a description in the, um in the photographic sense you're not, you know, over there is that and in front of us is that and you're looking You're looking for something [00:29:00] more like an Impressionist painting, and it's going to be mixed in with their experience and their feelings about the place. So I would only get someone to describe something if it's of great significance to them. Otherwise, I would do that myself in script or, um, or devise some other way of getting it. But I mean, you know, if you're at the back of the farm in a in a drought with the farmer, [00:29:30] and you know he's attached to the land, and I would say to him, I see barren hills and pastures. I see you know, the ground is blister. The rocks are showing through. You can be a little bit poetic yourself. That's what I see. But you with your attachment to the land. You spent 40 years investing in this land [00:30:00] Sweat, money time. What do you see? And of course, what he's going to say is he's not gonna so much give you a picture. He's going to give you an emotional response, and that's what I'd be looking for in that circumstance. So you're looking for, you know, you've got to decide, um, different things I remember in Blackpool I mentioned blackball before that, there was a guy there who used to be a minor. I took him onto the main street and I said, Well, [00:30:30] you know, we've got motor cars and, uh, you know, the four square and, uh and all that. But 40 years ago, John the mine was just coming out. So you set the scene for him slightly. You know, the pits, the afternoon shift. It's just coming out four o'clock. What would you see? What would you say? And he went. He did a brilliant description of miners with black faces and mine hats on and dungarees tied at the knees. [00:31:00] And, um, and, uh, the union boss gathering them together. It was a It was a lovely evocation rather than description. of of a period long gone. But he what he did was something that I could never have done in script. So, you know, But that was the right person. I'd sensed that he had this quality. And mind you if it doesn't work, you, you It's not live radio. You're recording, so you don't have to use it. [00:31:30] So it's worth trying. Um, you know, I. I was pretty confident he could do it, and he did. But if he hadn't, you know, So you're actually directing them in quite a useful way, aren't you? Yes. Yes. And, um Well, I hope a fairly subtle way. But you're saying things like, OK, I see this, but what do you see? Or through your eyes? I want to experience this, [00:32:00] Um, and don't forget things like smells, um, temperature. It's hot and cold. Um, the wind. Um, those things can all be part of a scene, which, of course, back in the kitchen, in the car. And, you know, they they can't feel that, But with a modern microphone, you know, you can, um you're not just gonna be You are You are able to record in adverse conditions to [00:32:30] some degree. So, um and and then another thing is mood. Um, I remember when I was recording the, um for or in seabed. Hi. I went down there and from, um, some people, I you know, I. I thought I get the right response. I just tried to capture the mood, how they felt, You know, this this kind of gathering together, And [00:33:00] so there is something that in these intangibles shouldn't be ignored. You're not just dealing with the obvious and just asking questions for information. You're looking for all these other things. And you, you know, you you've just go, They're not always there, and only one or two of them may be there. But keep them in mind and you know they can. They can give an extra [00:33:30] lift to a programme and capture something which doesn't necessarily show up in even in a even even through a television lens. It can show through radio. I guess one of the things that's racing through my mind is your mind must be going at a million miles an hour when you are engaged with an informant talking about something, but also thinking, What's the next question? [00:34:00] What's happening behind this person. How do I get them to explain something? How does that all go on your head at the same time? Well, the way I think of it is that, um, the two part your brain is split in two in a in a way, um, you know, metaphorically speaking, part of it is concerned with the integrity of your expression That what your eyes are doing what your hand is doing, Um, [00:34:30] nodding slightly. Um, hopefully not what your tongue is doing because you don't want to be going. Mm. Yeah. Mm. Oh, yeah, Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. Um, that's what you don't want to do. I mean, the odd little murmur of agreement is is OK, but that's natural. But you've got to be careful that you don't intrude too much with, um, those natural kinds of responses that we have in normal conversation. As I say, an interview is not a conversation, [00:35:00] but it should sound conversational. Not be, but not because you are going Um, yes. Ah, it should be conversational in the sense that it it sounds natural. It sounds as though the person your informant, it's just talking naturally to you. and, um um, but the the the the brain is split in two. Part of it is is all that, um, facial response and so on. The other part of it is being utterly [00:35:30] clinical. It's thinking. Oh, yes. That's an interesting point. I will. I do that. Will I get her to expand that now, or will I wait until that she's finished the sequence, then I'll get her to come back to that and just expand on it. You're making that decision then, um and you're thinking right now she's said so much about this. My next question will be [00:36:00] either. Well, we finish with that, so we'll move on, or I wanted to expand. Spend more on this particular point. Um, so there, you know there are There are all those things going on. The more experience you get, the more natural that that becomes. It's just practise, You know, it's not a you you don't. It's not rocket science. Uh, none of this is rocket science. Obviously. Um, so you, [00:36:30] um Yeah, that's that kind of process is going on, but but you mustn't let your eyes go dead and your your cheeks sag. Well, because you are thinking. Oh, yeah. What will I do next? I mean that that's a failure. Um, that that is the just the the person the informant will send straight away that you know, you're not listening or you you're only half listening or you're distracted with. And don't parade the gear, you know, and keep the microphone well below. Don't [00:37:00] have it up in front of the eyes and, you know, keep it below the chin. The the gear is a necessary evil. Um, and it shouldn't be made too prominent to people. To your informants. Um, you should be competent, and you should be able to, you know, work the gear and make sure you're practised so that you're not You're not putting around when you you know, um, so that the informant will think Well, if they think you're no good with the gear, they're probably going to doubt whether [00:37:30] you're any good as an as an interviewer too, you know? So all these little things do you Do you think the gear puts people off? Well, yes, I mean it. It'd be nice to just chat to them with no gear at all. Um, but I mean, that's not possible. That's what I mean by by necessary evil. Um, you've got to have it there. I sometimes say that I'll say, Oh, you know, that's damn stuff we don't. We'd rather we didn't have it because it's about a chat. [00:38:00] You and me chatting. But I just I'm just gonna have the mic there and, you know, ignore it. Um, of course they can't ignore it, But it it's still comforting to to say that, uh, another thing, too, Which is it's a bit. It's a bit of a, um, problem is whether or not you should wear earphones. Um, personally, I would never wear earphones unless I had a very, very unreliable piece of gear. But, um, recording gear. I think [00:38:30] earphones are all part of the techno crap that should be minimised. Um, have confidence in your in your, uh, recording gear. Um, and and nowadays, there's absolutely no reason to in in radio and and even outside radio with the kind of digital gear that's available, um, have confidence where your mic where you need to place your mic, you know, about nine inches, um, below the below the mouth. Um, and then you don't need to [00:39:00] have headphones on, because headphones, you know, they are giving you a false Um um uh, feed if you like, and, you know, they do tend to encourage your eyes to glaze over, But when you start listening to and they're an unnatural, you know, we don't sit at a dinner table with headphones with bloody big things over our ears. Um, you know, talking. So I But on the other hand, I [00:39:30] know. And this happens even with professionals in in in radio, beginners just don't have the confidence they feel. They need to hear what's coming through. I'd say, OK, do that for a start, but always aim to get to the point where you don't need to do that and especially in field work, field work, you know, and and some of the difficult circumstances. Imagine if I'd been wearing earphones when I was doing the SI S programme. [00:40:00] I mean, you know, I had mud up my nose. I would have had mud in the earphones. Every God knows what they would have been just impossible. So especially when you're away from the static interview, um, you got to learn to manipulate your mic or microphones? Two microphones or one microphone, Um, with confidence and get to, you know, to know, Um I mean, there's a whole area of acoustics [00:40:30] here which you don't. You don't need to know a lot about acoustics, but, um, it's worthwhile knowing a few things. Uh, for example, when you're, um, doing a static interview like we are now we're We're doing this interview in a perfect in the drama studio here, which has perfect acoustic in radio terms. But you could be in a somebody's home. Um, it might be rather modern, and they've got a lot of glass and no carpets on the floor, [00:41:00] and, um, and it's as bouncy as hell. Now. It's as well to understand that with a microphone that the the what goes into it, you could form a vector of two components. There's the direct sound from your mouth, and there's the indirect sound bouncing off the walls. Um, when you're outside, the indirect sound is absolutely minimal. But when you're inside, it is quite important, and it covers the voice as I mean, I you know all this [00:41:30] backwards. But, um, for novices, um, it's important to realise that what you hear coming out of the wireless or what you hear of coming out of your recorder when you play back is a combination of those two. The two sounds. You get too much bounce off the windows or the you know the chromium, uh, wall here or whatever it is shiny wall. Then it will. The voice will be too coloured, and it'll it'll sound very [00:42:00] resonant. It'll sound as though you've recorded in the bathroom. Now, unless you're in a cathedral or a church where you want that effect, then you wish to minimise that. But at the same time, you don't want to do away with it totally Because, um, you you you just want that slight sound of resonance so that it it warms up the voice slightly and it sounds as though it's in a place in a room, Um, perhaps a little bit more resonant [00:42:30] than the studio. So you, but you may want it to sound just studio, in which case you pick a place with plenty of, um, curtains and a carpet on the floor and, uh, and certainly not the kitchen. Um, but if you're stuck, if you If you have to record in a in a resonant place and you can tell it's resonant by clapping your hands and you'll hear the clap kind of bounce around echo around, then [00:43:00] the best thing to do is to get it to go go in a in a corner. Now you do that because the bouncing the bouncy surfaces are closer to the microphone and the distance. The time lag between the bound signal and the direct signal is minimised and therefore that resonant. In fact, if it gets too big in a church or something like that, it can be a second signal. It can be an echo [00:43:30] literally, Um, so, of course, you don't want to get to that stage in the in somebody's living room, which you wouldn't, because the distances are not that great. But all I'm saying is you can if you're stuck, go into a corner where the two surfaces are reasonably close to your mic, and that will at least help. Um, and the there are various. I mean, watch out for recording in a car, for example. Um, not just because of the engine [00:44:00] noise, and sometimes you have to record in a car, and that's it. But you'll get a rather boxy effect in the car because it's just too small space, which is, you know, it's nice to hear a bit of space around the voice. Um, and of course, you get that naturally outside, But, um, in various locations in turn, in, in, in somebody in a home, you know you get, you get a greater amount in the bathroom and a lesser amount in other places. So when you are setting up an interview, [00:44:30] are all these thoughts going through your head in terms of, Well, what is the right location for this particular interview? Well, right, right. Location can be looked at in two ways. What is the right location? Technically, which is what I've just been talking about or the right location in terms of the programme, um, the right. That's where you've got to decide whether you do a static, static interview like we are with somebody [00:45:00] who's remembering or giving you information, and there's nothing no stimulus outside that can make it better or make it you know more, bring it alive more you've you've got to decide that and really, that's about it. um, if there is some way, you know, as I said, you wouldn't do in a sit down interview with the parking warden, you get out on the street. Um, on the other hand, the old soldier talking [00:45:30] about Gallipoli. Um, well, there's no point going out on the street with him, is there? Um, but he may well have a box of old letters and photographs. These are good memory triggers and would serve the same purpose as the outside standing on the you know, the, uh, the land which is drought ridden for the farmer, you know, So the memory triggers are quite good to have, [00:46:00] and they also give a sense of place, you know, because you'll be saying things like, Oh, Joe in that in that box over there, Um, yeah, you've got a you've got a few letters and photos, and Joe will say, Oh, yeah, and I would say, Right, Well, let's go over and have a sort through, and he'll move and he'll go off mic and he'll still be talking As he moves, though, I'll record all of that. You know, um, rather than have them all set there, [00:46:30] but you can please yourself. I would prefer to have a bit of movement and and and because that gives a sense of being in a place, which is what spectrum likes to have, you don't have to do do that, You know, this is they take your choice. But, um, yes, you don't have to be out by the river, um, to have a sense of place you can You can do it in in in someone's home and you can move around the home and there could be photos on the wall and you can open and shut a [00:47:00] door and go into this other room where which used to be, um, a study. Or, you know, there's all kinds of ways of and it doesn't have to be a spectacular sound or, you know, it's just little things that can just just add with things like boxes of photographs and that, uh, it it seems to me that you have to have a almost a pre idea of what this person can offer and what kind [00:47:30] of things they have. Do you often do like a a pre interview or some kind of set up before you actually go and meet somebody? Not usually. No. I, um I talk to them on the phone and I'll say to them, Oh, you know, if, um, I've got a programme coming up in a week's time where I'm seeing somebody, uh, up north. And, um, I talked to him on the phone yesterday and I said, Look, you know, have you got any, um, and it it turns out he's got a whole lot of photos and stuff, so [00:48:00] I don't want to know about them until I'm there. Um, I will be. I'll be as surprised. I'll be surprised by it. I don't want to be, um, what's the word rehearsed. I want to be genuinely enjoy what? He's going to show me as much as he's gonna enjoy it. So that's part of it. You are part of it. Um, you know, I don't think that it's that you keep out of it. Totally. It's [00:48:30] it's It's an It's an exchange between two human beings doing the most natural thing on Earth, which is talk to each other. Um, you know, which is older than the oldest profession? I think, um, I'm not sure. The oldest profession you do talk to each other much. But anyway, um, in this you do. So, um, so I never I. I just, you know, go over the flow, discover what he's got and dig in the box. And, um, you [00:49:00] know, of course you can. You you're editing all this anyway, you know? So I mean, you can afford to go down blind alleys. That's the other great thing about, um, recorded radio as opposed to the live stuff life stuff. You've got to be a bit careful about going down blind alleys because you lose your listeners. You can't edit it out. It's there. It's gone over the airwaves, and that's it. But with recorded stuff, you know, I often do. I'll think, Oh, I wonder, you know. And you, you you you [00:49:30] go down some some avenue or other private way, and it doesn't turn up what you thought. But so what? You know, you're not, uh it doesn't matter. That just gets edited out. Do you think this is one of the maybe fundamental differences between say, like doing a radio recording and something like an oral history, where with an oral history, you are specifically going for somebody's memories? of a particular thing. Better life history or an event history. [00:50:00] Whereas what you're talking about here is it's almost like a fishing trip, isn't it? Where you're you're fishing for? Um, this, uh, fishing is is exactly the word we used to use and myself, uh, years ago when we used to divide up the interviews into two types, the fishing type where you just have a general knowledge that he's farmed on the other side of the mountain for 50 years, and that's about all you know, and that he's a good talker [00:50:30] and that some of his mates reckon, Oh, yeah, he's bloody good. That's all you'd know and then you'd go fishing. On the other hand, you can have a much more detailed, um knowledge. For example, when we did a programme on the, um, very last survivor of a classic shipwreck, Albert Roberts, when he survived being ship wrecked on the, um the the wreck of the dundonald on [00:51:00] the disappointment is on Disappointment Island in 19 07. There there have been accounts of Albert, um, you know, bits of written accounts. So And Owen, when he did this programme, he was able to acquaint himself in detail and take Albert through the experience. And that was his job. Uh, you still do a little bit of fishing as well, because you don't know. You know, memory is multidimensional. [00:51:30] It's not just on a level plane. There are all kinds of things that Albert would censor that he might think. Oh, that's not important. I won't tell that, which might be fascinating. So you're always on the on the on the lookout, and you're always willing to throw out the lure and do a little bit of fishing around. You can never just do something. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang like that. Or you shouldn't. I think if you do, then you're not doing [00:52:00] justice to the tremendous potential of memory under that reliving thing, you know, and you you need to bore down. It's a it's a it's a core. You know, there's all kinds of stuff down below. Um, little detailed stuff I remember with Albert Roberts. You know, he'd never talked before about how they used to kill um, albatross on the wing. These birds weren't scared [00:52:30] of human beings, and they fly over their head and they'd hit them with a bloody, um, chunk of wood. Well, that's but Albert didn't think that was very important. He just thought they wanted to. You know, here again, people in those especially people have not been exposed to this kind of thing. They think you're you're you're you're searching for battles and dates and, um, you know, big decisions and all that stuff. It's the tiny detail, which is often the, [00:53:00] um, the most fascinating and Albert talking about his gut searing hunger. I mean, we all know he must have been hungry. But when he when he talks about it and the words that he he used, you know, it's a whole other dimension. And so that's that's what you're, uh, you're after not just in oral history, but in anything, really. So in the art of fishing [00:53:30] is one of the key elements listening in and just picking up on key words that somebody listening is everything, uh, just a good job. You mentioned the term listening because you can, uh, Owen used to say that he he regarded himself as a professional listener, not as a professional interviewer, and that says a bundle. Uh, that's what you are. You know the the question is the end [00:54:00] product of a whole process of intense listening. And then the other thing you've got to do is not only listen, but you've got to think you've got to be processing what you're hearing. So in other words, there is what I call passive listening, which is what you do when you listen to somebody, Um, who's delivering a story. So you just absorb the story. You you're not gonna ask questions, you know, it's a it's a nice experience, but you can't just sit [00:54:30] there and listen to the story When you're interviewing, um, you must you must listen actively, as opposed to passively. And that means that you've got to You've got to be thinking, uh, if your brain shuts off and you're just enjoying what you're hearing, then watch out because you're gonna miss stuff. Um, and you're not doing justice to the topic. You're so you've you know, you've got to be taking an intense [00:55:00] interest and an intense, you know, brain, brain activation, whatever the word is, um, which will give you that? The question or the particular approach or the you do. You do get a sense of you know whether an interview is working. I always If I start to get mental pictures when the person's talking, then I know my audience [00:55:30] listening to the wireless will get the same thing. So and it's mental pictures, which I love. You know, um, whether it's bashing an albatross or, um, investing 40 years in a bloody, drought ridden farm, there's a mental picture there somehow, and it and it's not. And it's not just as I said before a photographic picture. It's an emotional, layered picture. [00:56:00] Um, so you're looking for all those subtleties and radio does it superbly, it's It's that intimacy and there's There's always an immediacy, somehow, about radio and intimacy, which you don't necessarily find in television when you're all everyone's given them the same picture, you know. So it's that theatre of the mind, the intimacy of that going on and being set up by words and pauses. [00:56:30] Don't forget that silences can say as much as as words. Um, a catch in the voice can say as much as floods of tears. In fact, what I'm saying is, very often less is more, and we should never forget that. And radio is a powerful enough medium for you don't need to wash the microphone with tears, you know, [00:57:00] And we you need to give your audience some credit of being emotionally sensitive enough to, um, share and understand vicariously what's going on in a person without needing to have it rammed down their throat. Which, unfortunately, sometimes you do hear How far do you push, uh, informants in terms of If you know it's an an emotional [00:57:30] story, how far do you push them knowing that it could result in them breaking down? I here again that that those things of integrity, um, them having trust in you? Um, I mean when you've emotional stuff like that will probably not come at the beginning of an interview. It'll come some way in, and by that time you've you've hopefully developed a relationship. That's the [00:58:00] other thing. An interview is a relationship between two people. They If if they're talking at that degree of emotional level recounting something that's happened, then they're already showing that they have a degree of trust in you, and you can't disrespect that. So in other words, if they if they're finding it really difficult, then I wouldn't hesitate to stop the recording and say, Look, it's OK, [00:58:30] look, just take your time. Um, sometimes they'll say, Oh, no, no II. I want to keep going Other times they'll they'll want to, you know, And they'll sometimes not want you to to broadcast or to record the the the worst of their tears. Well, this is where integrity in your editing comes in. Their respect for them is everything. And the listener does not [00:59:00] have the right to to see every bit of naked emotion. Um, the the informant is giving you something, and that's what they want to give you. Um, is it should it should be respected. I would certainly encourage along the lines of look, you know, you may find this very painful. Uh, indeed, you obviously do. But it's such a invaluable insight. And there [00:59:30] are people who will hear this, who may be going to or have gone through the same experience. They will identify with it. Um, if you feel like continuing and giving this, then that's all I would say. Really, it would still be up to them, obviously. And the very last thing you can do is, um, you know, pretend you're not recording or something like that. That's an absolute [01:00:00] no no, that would shatter every bit of trust. That relationship had never do it. You've used the word informant a number of times, and my kind of feels that it's a wee bit clinical. And I'm wondering, Is that a way of kind of distancing yourself from, um, the interview subjects? Not really. It's just that I don't like the word interviewee [01:00:30] because that brings it back to that term interview. And, um, it's probably a silly little personal thing, but I just use the word informant. Um I. I don't mean anything by it other than the person I'm chatting to you if you like, or, um, you know, it's no, it's not. Um, I agree with you. It it it it is a little bit, uh, clinical sounding, but for want of a better term. So [01:01:00] then how do you, um, keep a bit of a distance from the stories that you're recording? Because, I mean, you've had, you know, over 40 years of of doing these interviews, or do you absorb all those stories and and they are within you or do you try and distance yourself a wee bit. Well, you forget parts of them, and some of them you'll never forget bits of them You'll never forget. But I think there is a point here about [01:01:30] what tends to happen was certainly some intense kind of material where you do get very close. I've just finished an example of this where I've been doing a programme where I went round with, um, a nurse who nurses people who are dying. What's the word? Hospice nurse Joan Doyle and I spent four or five hours or so talking [01:02:00] to people who are dying now to make that sound good on the wireless. You've It's a fairly intense process, and I ended up with, um, you know, hours and hours of material. And then I had to get all that down to half an hour for the programme, and I found listening to them. They were marvellous people. Joan, the hospice nurse, selected these people really well, and they they had marvellous [01:02:30] stories to tell about their own personal dealings with this plight that they were in. Anyway, I had to go through all this stuff and edit it down to half an hour and, um, at the end of it, I produced the programme and I thought, Yeah, it's pretty good But I didn't have the confidence to say that with any degree of abstraction. And [01:03:00] I needed somebody else to hear it because I got so close to the material and that's what happens. And you have to, um, be aware of that when you're doing this kind of stuff, especially if you're editing, um intensively. After you've gathered that you do get very, very close and that there is a danger in that that you don't you know you don't see the the wood for the trees [01:03:30] kind of thing. Um, you're perhaps thinking that this is assuming more importance, and perhaps it should in the balance of the half hour or whatever. So there's a warning. Just, um, there's no easy way around that, except perhaps to just go away and not hear it for a couple of weeks. But in radio, you can't always do that because you're working to a time schedule. We're we're punching them out, you know. But yes, it's an It's inevitable [01:04:00] that especially with very emotionally intense stuff, which is what happened with the hospice stuff that you are drawn in to a point where you're so close and I'd rather want to let a bit of fresh air in there and to stand back and just get somebody to listen and and either confirm that what I've done is the right thing or say, Have you noticed that there there's a rather big concentration [01:04:30] on this, that or the other? Do you think you would be better just editing that bit down a bit? Whatever. So that's That's one thing that can happen. I'm not quite sure if I've answered your question, but I mean it. It it's It's a a connected point that I think is quite important. You were saying earlier about having mental pitches. Sometimes when you record and knowing that if it's working for you, then in the field, it's going to work for the listeners [01:05:00] in the field when you're seeing those mental pictures, is that almost you? You're almost editing in your head already. The audio. Yes, You do that a lot. The more practised you've become at this. Um, the more I can now, um, with some topics which are pretty straightforward, you know, I can come away from the interview and I hardly even need to play it back. I know I'll take [01:05:30] that chunk, that chunk and that chunk and join them together with the whatever and that'll be the programme. Um, that's not always the case. Take the hospice programme, for example. There was so much good material there, excellent material that I didn't know how I was going to integrate it, cut it back and yet still have an integrated programme. And it was worrying me, you know, [01:06:00] it's it's not as though I had three hours or four hours of material and only only you know 45 minutes was any good. It wasn't like that at all. The whole bloody four hours was good, Really good. So what do you do? You know, it's a challenge. And that's what being a professional, uh, broadcaster or producer of a documentary style programmes is about. It's not just about the easy that bit that bit and that bit and you've got the programme. [01:06:30] It's sometimes about a degree of intensity and a and a spread and an emotional depth of the material. How do you do it? Justice? So you know, it varies. One of the things with recording in a variety of situations, and I'm thinking like going to a hospice or going to, um, the wife of a farmer is that not everyone will [01:07:00] be as clued up in terms of rights and permissions and how things are going to be used and how things are going to be broadcast or published. What kind of conversations do you have with informants before you actually record? It's probably just taken for granted because I only record for one reason, or I have done other projects for, you know, oral history and that. But normally, um, I go along. I'm an RNZ producer. I work [01:07:30] for spectrum. We think this would be a good programme for spectrum, so they know that that's what it is. But I mean, if you're doing something which is less obvious, and then you have to be very, very clear. And of course, with oral history, they've got things for you to sign and all that, don't they? Which I never do. I don't need to do that. Um, I just, um if there's anything doubtful in the programme, then [01:08:00] I would make sure that that that I have their permission that they know that I'm going to use that, or I may use that. I wouldn't just take it for granted. I if there was something, you know, that could open criticism for whatever. You know, um, then I will point that out to them. Do you ever have people come back after a recording session and say, Oh, please don't use this, but, oh, please don't use that, but rarely. [01:08:30] But it does happen. And, um, you know, I'll chat to them about it. Um, and it's their decision, obviously. And if they feel strongly enough to ring you up, I mean, they may they may have a wrong basis for their And I may be able to say, Look, I've had, you know, a dozen examples of this and it's just never happened. You you know, you haven't got [01:09:00] that response and then they'll say, Oh, well, in that case, I'll trust you. You know, I'll, um, go along. But if they say no, I'm not happy, Then that's it. What is the main reason somebody would want to come in and and say, Oh, please don't use that. But is it because they fear a public response. Usually it's because it they've talked about somebody who are still alive or a relative is still alive, who they feel would be hurt. [01:09:30] And that's, you know, very valid. Um, thing. It's, um and I mean, if if this person has done something quite clearly outrageous and and there's no question that it's happened, then if I thought there was any kind of legal ramification, I'd get out of legal legal to put an ear on it. But in spectrum work, as opposed to, you know, some perhaps [01:10:00] insight or harder line programmes in spectrum work, that's rare. I can remember one, programme had its humorous side in a way where, um this person told me something, which in effect revealed this was in the bad old, more sensitive days, but in effect revealed that this person who was still alive was a bastard in the old [01:10:30] terms. A bastard, you know, out of wedlock, and I she hadn't realised what she'd said, and I went back to her afterwards of my own volition. I said, Hey, do you realise that? You know? And she said, Oh goodness and she said, Well, take that out. And we did. Um, so you know, I. I took that upon myself. I mean, it didn't ruin the programme that we didn't have that detail in there. Even [01:11:00] if it had, I would still have pointed it out to her just to make sure she may have well have wanted to make the point. And she couldn't care a damn whether anyone knew that this person was a bastard and, you know, born out of wedlock or whatever. I mean, this is this is nearly 40 years ago, so I mean, you know, sensitivities are perhaps vastly different nowadays, but not necessarily with some older people. You don't know. Do you think people are more media savvy these days? Oh, yes, Yes, [01:11:30] Very definitely. Yes. I mean, in the early days, um, they look a scan. So a tape recorder. Now, a tape recorder is found in just about any. Any home. You know, microphones are they're not a worrier. Although you still have to be cautious with my You know, as I said, you don't pose the microphone on you on somebody. And, um but yes, they are. [01:12:00] A lot of the people tend to think in television terms too, or or think that I'm a reporter. I'm looking for the scandalous news or something. And I have to, you know, point out that my job is not that, um So there are those assumptions. Um, but it's changed, you know. Whereas in the past, it was these people felt that they had no part to play in [01:12:30] their experience had no part to play in our history. Now, people, that's long gone, Because oral history has become very much a forefront, uh, experience of a lot of people. And so therefore, there's not There's not that, um, worry that we used to have Do you think people are a lot more kind of open in terms of what they'll discuss nowadays? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Is that a good thing? It makes your job a bit easier, I suppose. Um, [01:13:00] it's just a sign of the times. I. I don't know whether it's a good thing or a bad thing that, um um they'll discuss things. Now, you know, it may be sexual or, um, you know, intimate family, um, stuff that they wouldn't have dreamt of, um, discussing years ago. Um, and it would depend on the context of as to whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. It would depend on who's being hurt or if anyone's [01:13:30] being hurt. Um, or is is this, um what you're looking at and exposing? Is it going to do anything for at a personal level to enhance somebody's life, or is it going to do something to enhance society? I mean, there are all those things. If those things are answered in the negative, then perhaps you'd have to say, Well, it's just, um you know, [01:14:00] do we do We need to drag this out and, um, parade it in front of the listening public just for their for their uh, there's a word for it. Um, you know, um, their de lactation, their, um you know, just because, um, it's a bit like putting a whole lot of sex in a television programme. Just, you know, uh, just because we know that happens, do you Do you need to show it kind of thing? Same thing with some stuff on radio? [01:14:30] Has there been ever a situation that's just in in terms of recording that has just left you speechless that you go I. I didn't see that coming. Almost never quite. But it it occurred in the hospice programme. Actually, where this guy who is riddled with cancer, and he said It's been a great adventure and he talked on and I [01:15:00] said, Are you telling me that getting sick terminally ill is an adventure? He said, Yeah, for a I mean, it threw me for a moment and then he went on and explained, You know, you know, and it was a very good explanation, but I mean it it it It didn't leave me speechless I but I But I was very surprised that I would hear Anyone who is who is dying would say [01:15:30] that getting sick to that degree was an adventure. Quite something, isn't it? And the guy was genuine. I mean, he went on and explained it, and it it made sense. I'm wondering when you go and do a recording. We've talked a wee bit about locations and but maybe, for instance, sitting in a lounge, uh, or in a place that doesn't have hard surfaces, so you don't get that kind of reflected sound [01:16:00] when you're actually sitting or setting up the seating arrangement for people. How close are you? And I'm I'm just wondering about kind of personal space and how it's quite important, actually, Um, I always try to, um, be at about 45 degrees from my, um I'll use the word informant to get the person I'm chatting to. Um, I do that deliberately because I want to leave them space to escape [01:16:30] from my eyes. See, we're facing one another, and I have to look out there if I want to kind of look, look inward and escape your eyes. You see, whereas if we if we were at 45 degrees, I would naturally I would have my head slightly turned to to talk to you. But I could always look out into the the wide blue yonder. Um, I think people, [01:17:00] I was slightly more comfortable sitting at a slight angle where they can look away and escape and kind of go internal. Um, and I certainly wouldn't get any closer than we are now, because what I would normally be doing with two mics, I would have one, and I always handhold mics bloody good for your shoulder muscles. Um, especially if you're doing a very long interview. But, um um, [01:17:30] yeah, well, the thing is, if you're hand holding them when they lean back or move away, you can follow them if you don't want them to go off mic. Sometimes going off mic is quite nice, because it it it indicates movement. It's the radio mono radio equivalent of the stereo stage is going on and off, Mic. That's slight, subtle difference in the frequency component that that comes about. And the volume comes about from going off mic. Anyway, [01:18:00] that's, um where were we? I forgot what we We're talking about the space between interviewee interview. Oh, yes, yes. I mean, what are we now at, um, 3 ft or so? Yeah. I think that I I mean, sometimes in the in the in the early of doing field recording you You know, you you are much closer. Or if you're in a helicopter, you're right next to the pilot and you're shoving the microphone right onto his lip to keep the [01:18:30] noise to voice ratio. Uh, the right, you know, um, so there are certain circumstances where you, um uh but in a normal static sit down recording, interview like we're doing here. Yeah. 3 ft. This is about is about right. And in terms of, uh, chairs or sofas. Do you have any advice? And I? I know that, for instance, like a leather seat will make squee noises. Yeah. Yeah. You've got to consider things like [01:19:00] that. I'm quite happy on normal chairs like this. Um, sofa can be a bit awkward because you're both set. You set up 90 degrees, which is too much, I feel because you didn't have to do this. And so does your informant. Um, so But what I do too, if you if you're sitting at a desk, if this was square, this is round in front of us. But if it was square, I never sit on the other side of the desk so that you're [01:19:30] at it. The desk then forms a barrier between you. I would sit cross cornered, uh, so that, you know, the corner of the desk would be here, and we could comfortably, um, we could use the desk to put our papers on on the record or whatever. Um, but we're we're there's not. There's not a physical presence like a table separating us totally. And that's why you've set it up here. We're we're on the edge of the circular [01:20:00] table. So if we were on the other side there, I knew I'd be too far from the mic anyway. And so would you. But, um yeah, those little good little details can they can matter because, um, you know, bad sound quality. Um, and the other thing you've got to watch when you're in a a room, especially a kitchen, um, or some place in the house is the the [01:20:30] extraneous noises. You know, the buzzing fridge. Um, it's not just sounds you can hear either. You've got to be aware of, um, the possibility of RF, as we call it, radio frequencies. As you know, um, you know, a faulty a faulty fluorescent light, for example can, um, can cause problems. And you won't be aware of it until you listen. So always do a test. I think that's sometimes [01:21:00] in my field. Um, I don't have a chance, You know, I'm you're into it, and that's it. And you got to take potluck. And it's rare that you do get these these forms of interference, but it can happen. Uh, where you you're not just hearing something through going through the microphone. You're hearing an electronic, um, interference going on to your recording because of RF radio frequency in the room, you know, [01:21:30] And if if that happens, then about all you can do is go somewhere else or turn the light off, or if if you know what it is, you know, if it's fluorescent lights, you may try turning the fluorescent lights off. And of course, you'll be doing an interview in the dark. I don't know which is worse. So in the hospice programme, um, what were some of the considerations in terms of how people were sitting? And, you know, I'm assuming there's kind of equipment in the in, in the rooms as well. Did you have any issues with interference or [01:22:00] the way people were sitting? No, it was a bit difficult because they we come into the Joan and say hi, how are you? And we and we come and, um and they say, Oh, come in And and and the, you know, the person who's being cared for would sit on the table. His or her partner would kind of sit down somewhere else, and I didn't want to start rearranging them. Um, that would kind of be imposing. [01:22:30] I wanted it to flow right from the word go. So I didn't do that. What? I But I had two microphones, so I was able to stretch across the table and have one on John or, you know, and one on his partner. And then move one microphone across to Joan Doyle, the hospice nurse. Um, see what I mean. So this is where two microphones gives you a big advantage because you are, in effect, a mobile [01:23:00] recording unit able to tackle just about anything that crops up. If you're in the field with two microphones, there might be a little girl and her mother and her mother says something. A little girl says something. You you can't capture both those, especially with the bloody traffic noise behind them. You've got to have a 11 mic on one and one mic on the other. So with one with one mic, that's difficult. You're gonna be moving between and probably miss both. So, you know, [01:23:30] there are those, uh, physical, uh, problems. But not everyone can have two mics, obviously, and two handheld mics. But two handheld mics. I don't think I've ever, um, met a situation where I couldn't get a reasonable audio, some reasonable audio out of the sit. You know, um, even though it might be very awkward, you know, on the back of a bike going around a, [01:24:00] um, a farm. So I've got one mic on myself, the other mic on the on the driver, you know, and hope I don't fall off because I've got no hands left to hang on with. So But I mean, with only one mic, you, you all you can do is talk to it yourself or get him to talk. How does having more than one person in the recording affect the dynamic? So I'm thinking that if you've got, like one, you're doing a one on one interview. Then what happens if somebody else is in the room? Say, like in the hospice? [01:24:30] Well, there is two things here. Um, so having somebody else in the room when you're doing a 1 to 1, it may be OK if it's a spouse or, um, something like that. But if it's, uh, with the hospice, it was no problem, because all the people in the room were intimately concerned with that situation. You know, the hospice nurse, the spouse. And And it wasn't just the patient that I got great material from. It was the the spouse [01:25:00] who's had to, you know, administer the pills and give up his job and, um, take the little boy to school and all, you know, So that's all participation. That's all contributing. Um, but there isn't. There isn't something else. Another dimension to this kind of thing. Uh, I love to record groups, not just because you get a variety of voices and that is a consideration in a half hour programme. You know, you mightn't want just one [01:25:30] voice the whole half hour unless they're very good, but it sound that would begin to sound a bit like a Kim Hill studio interview. See, I don't want it to sound like that, but what I like about recording with groups is that they bounce off one another, and that's the big plus. So if you've got some occasion, um and you've got various people, um, who were involved in various ways in some occasion, [01:26:00] that may have happened 20 years ago or whatever gathering them together is a very good way, Um, of, of getting multidimensional kind of memories and and seeing it from different angles. And they'll also key off one another. They'll say, Oh, do you remember when blah, blah, blah and the other person What? No, I don't remember that. Yes, you do. Remember, you fell off the back of the horse? Oh, yeah. You know, and and, of course, what it does, [01:26:30] it becomes very conversational. It sounds very natural. So you're not just going to each one and asking them formal questions? I warn them beforehand. I say, Look, forget me. Um, I'll be coming in. I'll be curious with the odd question, but I want you to enjoy this occasion. I want you to relive it. I want you to, um, you know, stimulate each other. And if they're a good group, that's what happens. And that can make really good radio. [01:27:00] Um, you know, this bounce off kind of stimulating one another, and, um, and you and you get better material overall because you're not just getting one person. You know, you're getting a a kind of multifaceted, um, picture a portrait of an event that makes sense absolutely. I think some of the most interesting interviews I've heard is when it's been, for instance, like a couple, and [01:27:30] they almost well, they kind of finish each other's sentences or they contradict each other or they talk over each other. And so you've got these wonderful dynamics. Yes, it is. And it's a very human form of radio. It's it's You're right there in the room with a with a couple, you know, it's not. There's nothing formal about it. It's, um it takes away the whole feeling of interview in a sense, [01:28:00] and the further the more fearful feeling that you you can have of, but not really being an interview, just chat that word chat again. Then the more happier I am and the more, um, is the listener, um, brought in. They are brought right into the they're there in the room with the couple or whatever. They're not being lectured or [01:28:30] or told about something from a distance, you know, and it's that closeness that that comes across. How do you end an interview? Um, well, you know, uh, if we seem to have come to the end of the piece of string, um so I'm good. Um, get out the scissors. Um, but, um, what I usually look for is some kind of strong [01:29:00] ending, some kind of summation or some something that I don't like to just let it fade away to zero to kind of fade away to, you know, to nothing. Um, So I you know, I This is This can be a bit cliched, but I might say, Well, look, we've covered your the Napier earthquake. You're travelling down to Christchurch. Um, the war years [01:29:30] when you look back on your life, you know, do you think you've been fortunate or or not so fortunate I might do something like that. And then, you know, there's an obvious ending. Um, you might get you might get a crap response from it. I don't know, but I I do would I would look for something like that. Um, but they may just come out with something like that. Anyway, as the sense of becoming clo coming [01:30:00] closer to the present occurs naturally in the interview. So, you know, there could be a natural rounding off anyway, and you'd get a quite a quite a nice It doesn't have to be a big, strong rambus. Um, ending. Um, you know, some pieces of music in quite softly. Do you find that, uh, interview situations often have natural endings? I'm thinking that, uh, people only have so much energy [01:30:30] and so much stamina that do you do Do you find that? Actually, people will say, Actually, that's that's enough. But they they won't say that. Yeah. I mean, there is this There is the point that when you're doing extended work with, um, say an oral history, Um, especially with people say in their eighties. And they will get tired, and it's best with older people to usually to interview them in the morning. [01:31:00] Um, they're not as alert very often. This is You've got to generalise. I mean, I spoke to a 94 year old a few, um, a month or two back. Who broke all these rules? She was amazing. Um, but in general, um, older people do need a rest, and I if you're doing something about their whole life or something, you know, extended, then I would probably do it in two or even [01:31:30] three parts. Um, I spread it over three mornings, or you may want to spread it over the day. But, um, certainly look beyond the lookout for, uh, tiredness creeping in. And, um and of course, there's something else you find with older people. Um, and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but they have programmed their memories. In other words, they've repeated these [01:32:00] things so often. I think you've you you've, um you can find it with some some people who are very good. Uh, I remember, um, John A. Lee, the famous, um, author and politician of the, uh, early part of the 19th century when I talked to John, um, he could rattle off all these stories, but they were so obviously, um, pre pre, um, preformed, if you like. And he had [01:32:30] them perfectly rehearsed. They were very good. So I'm not, You know, I'm not faulting him, but I mean it it is. That's something you tend to get from older people rather than people in their middle years. How do you maybe break that story? So, what kind of questions would you fire at somebody to try and get them off the off of your Well, you You'd have to You'd pick on something. [01:33:00] Um, they all have said, And Gee, I was angry at that. And then we went on and we we got on the train and we and I'll bring I'll bring him back And I say, OK, you were angry just how angry. If you'd had the opportunity, what would you have done now that breaks the You know he hasn't got that programme and he's going to because he's good. He'll he'll give you something probably quite reasonable. So it's very [01:33:30] often this kind of interviewing is using the zoom lens, Um, knowing when to allow the story to flow at a certain distance and when to go right and close. And, um, just pick on some very often. It's an emotion they've mentioned, or a eyebrow raising event that they pass over. That's where you've got to be listening all the time. And just [01:34:00] suddenly you know, you you're wanting to know more about that, and that will break the pattern as it were. It may take them by surprise, too, which nothing wrong with surprise. Surprise on on on the wild is is good, very human, um, emotion and, um and can herald interesting material. What was the change [01:34:30] like when you went from analogue recording, like with the the the tape machines to digital. So digital happened, what in the 19 nineties? In the nineties? Yeah, Uh, well, the change for me was huge. Um, not so much in the way we gathered material there. There was a minimal change in that. Although the recorders were getting smaller and better, and we could record for longer periods, you know, there was all that. So we went from the old, uh, quarter hour tapes to, [01:35:00] um, you know, and then on to, um uh what it flash cards and things just you could record for longer and longer. There was all that, but there was a whole change in the way you edited things and the what you could do. And when we moved to initially, I was going to retire. This is a a digital editor on a computer. Yes. Yes. Sorry. Uh, is, um, the marvellous [01:35:30] system of digital editing. Where you you It's a bit like word processing, But you're working with a wave form, um, on a on a computer screen, and you can raise a cutter and edit very anyway. When we first came to that and remembering that in the nineties I was in my sixties and I really came very close to saying, Bugger this. I've I've been with Anna for, um, 30 [01:36:00] odd years. Um, 40 years. Um, this is not my, um I'll I'll leave it. I just partly I stuck with it because II I was just a bit less than 65 and the early so I couldn't have had the pension, so I needed the money. But But also, there was something just said, Oh, you know, stick with a bit long anyway, the long and the shorter. But within a year or nine months or so, I was utterly sold [01:36:30] on digital digital editing. It was marvellous. Once I got over the initial you see, before, um, Digital, I couldn't even use a keyboard. I couldn't type, so I had all that to learn all that very rapidly. And I was in, uh, IT terms totally ignorant. I still am in many ways, but I know enough now to just be able to do something on a on [01:37:00] a computer, uh, do something in, and the sheer control and precision that, uh, the digital it brings brings to to you is marvellous. Whereas in the old old days, you know you had it was a bit like playing a musical instrument. You had to hit the buttons on the edit at the right time, as you'll remember. And, um, if you didn't, then you had to redo the edit and and you had to watch out for tape hiss [01:37:30] when you were doubling up on things and there were a whole lot of restrictions. Um, I remember doing a big series of, uh, the history of radio in the nineties, and it was the very last analogue programme. A big series. I did. And I've often thought, If only I'd done that in Digital because I would have mixed and faded and created sound beds and done all that which wasn't really on, because I did all my own technical work and still [01:38:00] do my own technical work. But in analogue, the difficulties of doing that were considerable. I mean, the series. You know what the eye doesn't what? The ear doesn't hear the eye the heart doesn't yearn for, I suppose, but But even so, I'm aware of that. You know, the the the flexibility is just enormous. It's, um it's hard to explain to someone who hasn't worked in the two, but, um, it's a whole new world. Mind you, there is a [01:38:30] There was one downside I remember was, um, when people first started, um, doing things in digital, they did things not because those things needed to be done, but because they could be done so they would close the gap in speech, close it too much in analogue. We'd never do that because it was too difficult. Um, but with say to you, with digital, you can close that gap right up. You [01:39:00] can take a breath out, No trouble. So you've got to be a bit careful that you don't take the naturalness out of speech the you know, and that you don't take every R and R, um, to the point. There's nothing wrong with taking arms and eyes out, but to the point where the speech is starting to sound a bit mechanical a bit, um, as though it's been join together, you know, and it's starting to sound like that. Then watch. Watch out, you know, Don't do it. Don't just because you can do it. Um, [01:39:30] it's not really good enough reason to do it. So why do you edit? Well, many reasons. Um, you you you edit, um, to make better sense of a of a piece to make it flow better. So you may take out a certain, um, piece. That's the person has thrown in because it's it's not strictly relevant. There's that kind of editing, which is what you might call factual [01:40:00] pretty factual editing. You you edit. Well, I always had it to try and make the best of my informant. The person. And I think we should we forget that at our peril? Um, really, that's I mean first, OK, The listeners, you know, should be presented with a flowing easily understandable, um, piece of audio. And we shouldn't always remember [01:40:30] that this is for the year and the it's not like the page. The ear is fleeting. Um, the you can't go back over something. You know, all these things I know these are well known for, um uh, even with novices, But, um, that has to be kept in mind when you're editing so clarity and simplicity of, um, the the audio not to not to, um, [01:41:00] dero it of its emotional impact. And that doesn't mean to say that the pause should be, uh, taken out. The the pause there can indicate thought can indicate emotion, so you must be aware of that. Those things must be left in they. You might shorten them a bit. I don't know. It's a judgement. It's experience practise. You know all these things. But, um, the the other form of editing, too, is that there's the sheer [01:41:30] necessity with radio production of having to work to a time limit. So therefore, you're having to make decisions about as I had with the hospice. I had all this marvellous material. How was I going to get it down? One of the techniques I ended up using was to fade in on material and fade out. If you do that in the right places, you can. You can bring your audience [01:42:00] into a scene and then gently move your audience out of that scene. So you're not. You don't have a cut, which has a beginning and an end. It has a and you come. You stay with it for a while, then you fade out and then you fade into something else. which, um, works well, I think in the hospice programme works very well, but that was about the only way I could find my way around in including quite [01:42:30] a few disparate pieces from different people. Um, so there's another form of editing. Editing is not just about putting a razor cut here and another razor cut there and deleting that and joining the two together. It's about how you fade in on a scene, fade out on a scene. Um, it's it's also about, you know, putting script over the sound. Um, and and you know, just how you do that. There's a whole lot [01:43:00] of this. We could talk for hours on these topics, but, I mean, I'm just mentioning them in, in general, so editing and production really are part of the same process. And, um, production, I suppose, is a better term than than editing. The production is, you know, forming the whole in a in a concise but, you know, believable kind of flowing. Um uh, piece. Um, [01:43:30] and there are a whole lot of techniques that, especially in digital, uh, are so easy to do. Um, a lot of these techniques come from the old drama days of early radio where the fade fade out. If anyone remembers the old arches, every scene was a you know, faded and faded out And you, you, you it became a cliche You It was just too much of it, you know? But it was That was what it was done in the sixties seventies. You know, the transitions [01:44:00] you're doing in production. Um, you are also very good at doing transitions actually out on the field in the in the initial recordings. Yeah, that's here again. That's experience and practise you. You get to the point where when you're in the field, you're seeing and hearing things in terms of radio back in the studio. In other words, the production in the studio and the gathering in the field are part and parcel [01:44:30] of the same process. When initially, when you first start this kind of work, you tend to think of the two things as separate. You go out in the field and you and you gather a whole lot of stuff and it and it's a bit higgledy piggledy And you think, Oh, I'll bugger that. The technician can fix that when I take it back into the studio. When you have to do your own technical work, you soon get out of that habit. I can tell you, um, so you're looking for smooth transitions. I mean, and you're also looking to [01:45:00] a programme that drags that uses script. It, um it's It's what I call, um, using script to get yourself out of trouble and to go from one piece to another piece. Oh, how do we join those two things? Oh, we shove a bit of script in. That's clumsy, uh, rather amateurish radio. There are all kinds of other ways. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do that ever and that it's It has [01:45:30] its place, certainly in a programme like Insight and the the The The Programmes, where there's a heavy editorial content of the producer having to put in information. But in a programme like Spectrum, there's no need for it. Um, and what happens is that you keep dragging your audience from the field from the vicarious experience of being there, you're dragging them back into the studio. Well, that's a rather pointless thing to do. Why not leave them [01:46:00] experiencing the real thing and just seamlessly introduce them to various things. So that would bring in things like commenting to about something, uh, on the microphone or directing your talent to say something. I'll give you an example. Um, you're down by the sheep yards. Um, and you know that that that really you want to record up in the pub? Next? So what do you do? Well, [01:46:30] you could do two things you could make sure you've got plenty of sheet noises, bar, bar, bar, bar, and you can fade out on that. And the next thing you can fade up on is the clink plank of glasses on the tool going, you know, and the barman saying, Um, yes, sir. What would you like? Or another beer, sir. Or a beer? Beer, Charlie, All those kind of stuff. So you can go from one scene to another in sound purely in sound. That's one way. And it's far better [01:47:00] than saying from the sheep yards we went up to the the pub. I mean, who who wants that kind of script from there? We went to the, you know, amateurish, uh, clumsy, unnecessary. Uh, another way is to, um it's to get your talent you've got a guy leaning on the on the on the yard fence and you, you know, you're not getting them to do Shakespeare. But you do say to him, Look, [01:47:30] I wonder just a AAA way of getting into the into us, talking up to the guys at the pub, um, in your own words, you know, and he'll come out with something, and you'd be surprised how good people are at doing this because they're in their own environment, and he'll say, God, I'm as dry as a little bloody wooden God, what say we're going to have a beer? Well, that's a real, you know, much better and natural way. And the next thing you hear is the the the pub [01:48:00] sound. Um, you see those things you think of in the field and there are, you know, they're endless ones. And, um and I would do, uh, a programme recently where where I was, um, gathering, um, doing a programme on, uh, what? I called, um, memory. You get into your seventies and your memory goes, um, well, anyway, the the the name [01:48:30] will come to me, but they they go around gathering vegetables at markets for the for the hungry. And, um, you know, the stuff would be thrown out otherwise, Um, um, it's called, so I knew that I was going to go to the home of compassion and see where the food parcels were given out. So why why put in a chunk of scripts and saying, Well, after the vegetable market had closed, we went down to the Newtown. Um blah, [01:49:00] blah, blah. So just a microphone at the veggie market. I said, Uh, OK, John. Well, that's just about it for the market. You know, we've You've done pretty well, he said, Oh, yeah, we've got 90 kilogrammes, bloody good vegetables And I say, Yeah, and that's all gonna go on. And a lot of that's gonna go down to the City mission in Newtown. Yeah, that's where it's going to end up in food Parcel. And I say, and that's where [01:49:30] I'm going. So, um, and then you fade up on the sea. So there's There's another technique which sounds far more natural and flowing them. A chunk of here I am there. I'm going kind of script, but you must have to have quite a clear idea in your head before or as you're recording that this is going to be the structure of the piece. Yes, but you can do you can do alternatives, and you don't need [01:50:00] to use it if you change your mind. So you might. If you know that you might go there or you might go there, then do do a couple of alternatives. Or if you don't know where you're gonna go, then just do an out see what I mean? So that and then perhaps with other things, do sound in fade ups on certain noises. That and then when you you're at these other places say something Well, [01:50:30] that, like I haven't come from the veggie market. But just say, Well, this is this is new Town and more particularly, it's a It's a It's the, uh, city mission in Newtown and you can hear all around me, uh, people having a chat before they get their food parcels. Something like that. Be be careful that you don't make it too formal, you know, chat it, say respond to what's around. You don't make it. [01:51:00] AAA script that doesn't is not part of the scene, you know, relate the scene into your statement, and that's what happens a lot with when you're working in, um, in the field. You're not asking questions in the way of of of, uh, you would in a in a studio. You're You're asking questions about what you're seeing, what you're hearing, what you're smelling, what you're feeling. Um, and you're [01:51:30] getting your informants to respond in the same terms, because why be there if you're only going to ask questions that are about, you know, that you would ask, sitting in a studio Well, why be out in that place so that you've you've got it here again. It brings your listeners into vicariously with you. You're taking your listeners and treating them with some respect [01:52:00] You're not. You're not excluding them, you're bringing them in and allowing them to share what you're seeing, because that's the only reason you're there is so that you can bring your listeners there. You know you're not privileged. You shouldn't be. You're only there for one reason. Over the 40 years that spectrum has been running what has had the biggest listener response? Probably some of the satires that Owen used to do years ago he'd do a satire [01:52:30] on the royal wedding or, um, piggy Muldoon tax reforms. And these were a departure for spectrum. There were specials, but he was particularly good at it. He could write a really good satirical script. They used to go down very, very well. I suppose the the other others were really good at, um, strong oral history. Um, programmes that were really like the dundonald. Um, the wreck of the dundonald [01:53:00] with, you know, the cabin boy, Albert Roberts. Uh, those kinds of programmes. Um, if you want to get a huge response, then it's quite simple. Just upset people. You'll get a response. Pleasing people doesn't elicit a large response. Normally, uh, especially in a prolong running programme like spectrum, people just expect to be entertained or informed [01:53:30] or whatever they get out of it, and they're not gonna run, run to the computer and email, um, unless they want added information. That's another way of, um, getting a response. If if something they're personally interested in and they'll say, Oh, yeah, I must. I want to find out more about that because I want to join or I want to contribute or whatever. That's that kind of response you get. But the other way is to is to upset [01:54:00] people. I remember we did that once with, um um when Prince Princess di got married back in 81 I think it was opted A a guide to the royal wedding. And we didn't hold back. That got a response. All all the all the, uh, the royal followers in New Zealand were most upset about it, so they got a huge response. But [01:54:30] I suppose you could say for all the wrong reasons. But on the other hand, you know, um, you can't please everyone all the time. So you you you know, you've got to chance your arms sometimes and, um, and risk upsetting some people with. But you've, you know, you've got to have a a good reason for doing so. Yeah. So 40 years of programming, uh, a wonderful archive now of voices [01:55:00] and stories, probably many, many of the people are are no longer with us. A lot of them are dead. Yeah, because we tended to, especially in the early days. Concentrate with oral histories on people who are a bit older. You know, they were talking about the Boer war, first World war Depression. Um, so, yes, they're all gone. So when you look at that kind of, um, kind of legacy of the programme what what are your thoughts? I'm I'm quite pleased, [01:55:30] even proud, that I've been able to, um, by just keeping at it, not by doing anything brilliant, but by just slogging away week after week, year after year, that I've been able to build up or contribute to an archive which it's in in audio terms, you know, reflects New Zealand's social history. Um, you know, that's that's got to be better than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick or a [01:56:00] sharp stick or whatever. Um, so I do get satisfaction from that. Um, I don't know What else. Really? It's, um it's been pleasurable. I mean, I. I can't say that it's been a slog in the sense of, you know, it's been wake up on a Monday morning and don't want to go to work. It's not been like that. I've been I've been very, very lucky in the in the job. I did, and the other thing is serendipity. [01:56:30] Just being there at the right time, when the portable tape recorder was just coming into its own and having the whole first half of the 19th century just lying there waiting to be, um, mined. I mean that you have to be bloody lucky to do that. And also having a teacher. Like who I learned my craft from, um, hop, still going in his eighties was still in contact a lot, but hop was a superb [01:57:00] um Well, not so much teacher, but he, uh, he embraced anyone who was interested in radio and interested in his kind of radio and would give you any help you needed. And I had that I was a greener than I was cabbage looking when I first started in in in documentary work, Even though I've been in radio. Um um, 20 years. Uh, well, not 20 but, um, whatever. I started on radio in 1958. [01:57:30] I started in spectrum in 1972 but, um, yeah, just, uh I was just lucky. And, um, you know what a great job to have had over all those years. That and the other thing, too, is that we were allowed freedom. Um, hot was highly respected and people looked up to his work. And then gradually, I was able to take on a similar [01:58:00] mantle and, um, have the freedom and the money in tight times. Um, the administrators, people like Peter Downs, head of national radio, and and others Beverly Waco had the confidence and saw a value of what we were doing and therefore kept us funded, and we weren't made redundant. So you've got to be grateful for that, too. Yeah, we've been talking for, [01:58:30] um, a couple of hours and you've gone through a whole range of things to do with with how to record and edit, uh, for for radio. And I'm just wondering in summation, Um, do you have any final, uh, tips or ideas? Well, this kind of work interviewing or documentary work, however you wish to describe it or whatever part of it you work in is essentially a craft. It's a bit like making [01:59:00] a it's a bit like a cabinet maker, a carpenter, or, you know, it's not a high art form, although at its best it can approach that. But it's a practical skill, and it means that it's essentially a skill of doing so. It's a bit like riding a bike. If you sat at a table and swatted up all the the points that I've raised we've raised today and then thought at the end of it, right? [01:59:30] I've learned all that. Therefore, I'm a a producer, an interview or whatever. Then you couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, you you it's not the theory behind all this. It's the practise. It's the doing. It's the riding, the bike falling off, getting on again, riding up and down Dale and doing a fair kill. Me. So So you know. The more you do, the better you get at it. And there's no other way of getting good at it, other than practising [02:00:00] other than doing, that's the only way you'll get this brain divide into the clinical and the what we discussed. And and and of course, a lot of this experience. When we talk about experience, it's really about hunch. Hunches are not logical. They don't emerge from a particular argument or a formation of thought. They're just something that emerged from having done a lot of it, [02:00:30] and some of us are probably better at it than others. But, you know, experience is about developing that second sense of what's right and how to do things. That's part of it, too. But essentially, you know, get on your bike and start peddling and really keep peddling for 40 years, and you, you you'll only get better.
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