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I'm Ivan. Um, and I'm from, um, Malaysia. Um, been here in New Zealand, Uh, about 10 years. Um, and I am Chinese, So basically, I'm I'm I'm Chinese, but, um, grew up in Malaysia, and that was back in probably early eighties. Um, when I found out that I'm gay and it really [00:00:30] has a huge impact on how I view myself, um, growing up in a Muslim country and also a very traditional Chinese family. Um, I think the biggest thing for me, um, was finding out who I am. Uh, there was this really intense fear of letting people know who you are because then, you know, like as a society, you wonder [00:01:00] how it would be, uh, once you're being and not being included as a part of the society. And I think the biggest fear I have was, uh, not sure how my future is going to be like when I grow out and when there's time when I need to fulfil my family obligations. Such as getting married, um, and having Children. Um, especially when [00:01:30] I was in a family where I'm the only single, Uh, I mean, like, single as the only son in the family and I have three older sisters. So that notion of fulfilling, um, my obligation as a son was strongly held, Not necessarily in my family, but, um, in how the society has have portrayed as a male [00:02:00] characters in in the context of society, from TV from newspaper. And I never asked my parents, you know, like, was it my They are my expectations that I will need to fill out that kind of role because we never discuss about it. So it was sort of like my assumptions that that is what my parents would want me to do, especially when I was a teenager. And, you know, people start asking you, do you [00:02:30] have a girlfriend? And then you became an adult And people ask you, when are you going to get married? And when you say you don't have a girlfriend and people still look at you like, oh, what's wrong with you, you know, and then sort of teasing you about Oh, So do you want me to introduce you a girlfriend? So especially when you have all the extended family that living in a similar area. So you do, uh, catch up with [00:03:00] them from time to time. And that always, you know, like the eventual conversation that will came out and ask you, When are you going to find a girlfriend? And that really stirred me because it just, you know, like, keep reminding myself what sort of art that I against with and, um and also to know who I can talk to. Uh, even though I told my sisters about my sexual orientation [00:03:30] when I was about 16 or 17, But they seems to be believe that it is just a phase. It will pass, um, after a while, so it never get fully acknowledged, as that will be my life. And when you only see what it is being offered in a society, you really don't know what else is out there. And that [00:04:00] was the biggest challenge. So when at what age did you realise that you might mean from the very early age? Um, but I think that this more subconsciously I mean, like, uh, during the the age six or seven, I knew I always like to be close to men than women and also know that when I was about eight [00:04:30] or nine, I really like watching um, TV that have very strong male characters, like the mainland IP show all that and I really like it. And now when I look back, I know why I like it so much. But at the time, I also really attract attracted to the physical male body, the muscularity and all that. Um, So I knew I was different [00:05:00] from a very early age. And when you were around that age, can you recall anything that was being said by people around you about, um, gays and lesbians? No, not so much. But somehow in the society, you still get that kind of tease about, you know, like, um, either you being too feminine or uh too subtle remark make it seems to be [00:05:30] unacceptable for any male to be too close to another man or for me. I was really tiny and skinny, so and growing up with three sisters that probably made my behaviour seems to be a little bit permanent. Uh, and I was getting tea from that from the very early childhood. Um, and also the questions being asked about, You know, [00:06:00] like, why I didn't behave like a normal man. I not too sure what normal man is, but I also not very interested on what the society perceives men as good at, like the sport. I hate sport, but the reason why I hate sport was because I think I was being teased by school teacher and my peer about how lousy I was, Um, and certain things that I'm good at, such as drawing, dancing, [00:06:30] singing, and so people sort of comparing me as how a guy should be. Um, and suddenly I did not live up to expectation as a man in, In in the Malaysian Society. Uh, so you get a feeling like, you know, you need to be tough, you need to be mature. And it's my job to protect a female from a very young age, [00:07:00] my father, because he's away. And he always told me I need to look after my mom and my sisters even though I was younger. I don't know how that is possible, but it always seems to be my responsibility to ensure that they are OK. Hm. Can you recall at that age, any other Children or any other young adults that could have been gay and lesbian? Uh, Yes, I remember my uncle, [00:07:30] which is my mother's brother. Older brother. He is a womaniser. And one time he brought this female to our place. Um, I remember they They want to use my mother's room. Um, do you know what they wanted to do? And so I remember my mom having a conversation with her friend and saying that that woman doesn't look like a woman. [00:08:00] Um, and I also remember when I was about the same age. My mom has a hair salon, so she always have friends come over. And this, uh, woman who very, uh, very tomboyish dressing and all that. And every time when they left, they sort of would say something behind her and say, you know, like, Oh, she's [00:08:30] bringing another woman again to know what they are to, uh, and making a casual remark about, um, you know, like, she is doing another woman again. Um, but in in Malaysia, because we have this, uh, male dressing up as female and also, uh, working on the bad street. So again, you hear all that conversation [00:09:00] popping out from now and there about so and so, uh, go to this street and visit all the transgender, um, and paying them money just to feel them and see whether it's real or not again, those sort of like joke or conversation came out as when I get older. Um, because my mom knew a lot of people. Uh, and the hair salons always been like a small social gathering that reflect on the the [00:09:30] the wider society and the people that my moms hang around. You hear all this, uh, interesting conversations floating around, you know, in Malaysian culture, are there Are there specific words for gay lesbian transgender? Um, yeah, in Malay word they call it means that, uh, equivalent to the word CC. But it has this very negative connotation, [00:10:00] Like, you are not a man, but, uh, act like a woman. Um, and you are the lowest, uh, of the societies. So people use that word, then tease me as well. So it was really hurtful. Word like the word or in Chinese called basically means a little white face. That means it's like a a toy boy. [00:10:30] Um, but again, it actually have much cynicism about the words means that, you know, like you couldn't live out as a man in a society and fulfilling your obligations to be, um, the the the sole responsibility of the male character in the family is talking about someone who, uh, ask for money from a female. Um, so again, it's really hurtful [00:11:00] word. Um, yeah. So in being teased, what happened? How did you cope with that? Um, I. I wasn't happy. I mean, like, I scared to go to school because I knew how my day is going to end out. It's going to be a lot of teasing and being pushed around. Um, and also I don't like to go out [00:11:30] with friends or even if I show a little bit of anger or, um or having fight with my sisters, they will. They will call me those words as well. So basically it taught me not to make people outset, because if people said they're going to call me names, it's really helpful. So II I became, um, really cautious and and try to please everybody [00:12:00] so that I wouldn't be teased and even trying to add a little bit more mature, uh, and trying to hide a certain behaviour that has been pointed out by other people um, so that they wouldn't see that I am What? A so called and so I constantly modifying my behaviour so that I can match what other people expected as a male [00:12:30] character in the society. And that was really hard because you're constantly trying to please your father or your sisters or your maid and you forget about who you truly are as a person. And did that work? No, of course it never worked. Because I think, um, coming to New Zealand, [00:13:00] I really able to embrace myself because if people want to talk about, uh, feminine side I, I do have my very sensitive and very feminine side. But I also have a very male orientated, uh, character, which now I able to recognise I wouldn't want to put it into context because it's not about sexist. But what I'm saying is, um, able to recognise that I have a so called [00:13:30] balance. I'm very, uh I'm very sensitive. I'm very emotional, and I and also very empathetic as well. So I recognise that as a gift now, still see me as something um made me became a weak person. But on the other hand, I also know that I'm very driven. I'm very goal oriented. And what I mean is, I also, uh, able to do [00:14:00] a lot of, uh, handyman work. Um, I. I like getting myself busy with, uh, technology or even the homemade, um, cabinet and all that. Um and so I able to embrace both sides. Um, and having both, um, as a balance in my life, Yeah. If you had stayed in Malaysia, could you have come out as a gay person? No way. [00:14:30] Um, really I, I really do not know what to do. But having said that, the society also grow and develop at the same time. I mean, like, I heard from people saying that now there's more, um, like, gay sauna in Malaysia as well. And there's a bar, um, that you can meet other gay people in Internet site, but it's still very hidden, so I might able to go to those places [00:15:00] yet I would never be able to review as who I am as Ivan to other people. I will be always the guy who's 30 something, and he have a girlfriend and not married and everybody talking behind my back. I mean, here everybody know I'm gay and no one see as an issue. And they just see Ivan as Ivan. Um, and I also able to live the life that [00:15:30] I want, which is having a partner, Um, and also able to recognise my own unique identity and able to share with friends and people who really cared about me. And I think the most important thing is now my family. Now I'm my sexual orientation, and they also embrace it. And also, they like my partner, Um II. I think the harder things for any [00:16:00] a hidden secret is you cannot be honest with people you love, and you cannot share the joy and and and the hard shape when you have in your life. I mean, um, when I broke up with my previous partner, I was able to call home and cry and told my mom why life is so hard and all that. That was great, because when I first broke out with my first boyfriend, I couldn't tell anyone. [00:16:30] So I have to hide my emotion because family to pick out that you know, like why you look so sad And but you cannot say I just broke up with my first boyfriend. But at least at that time, I just brought up with my ex partner. I was able to call my mom and tell my mom relationship is hard, Um, and also told my mom that, you know, like, uh, really [00:17:00] questions about, you know, like, am I really that ugly or, you know, like, am I really not worth any love and also able to talk to my sister? So that was amazing. Like even now, every time when I call my mom and my sisters, they will always ask us. So how is Jerry? Uh, they will be interested to find out what Jerry is doing. What am I doing? What we both are doing. So it's a great feeling when you finally feel that you can really [00:17:30] felt like being part of the family instead of always having a second thought about you can only share certain part of your life, but not the whole of your life. Um, can we just go back a wee bit to like when you were growing up in Malaysia and you were saying that you were you were being teased? How did that progress? What What kind of how did you get through those feelings? And, um, how did you meet your first boyfriend? [00:18:00] Um, I really have to say, I hate school so much. My result drops really badly as I growing, uh, older because I just don't like school. I try to find excuses not to go to school for me. I would try even to hide myself and make myself as invisible as possible. So I'm [00:18:30] not going to be picked on. I'm not going to be teased about, and no one is going to look at me. Uh, it works. And I have to say, if I think back of my school years, I can only have some very vague memories. Um, but a lot of things like people say that, you know, like they have friends who grew up together and all that I never had and how I met my very first boyfriend was when I went to, [00:19:00] uh, the north part of Malaysia because of my father. Um, I was able to meet a group of friends who really get along very well, and I have this friend who is one of the closest and altogether we have like six people as a group, and he always seems very moody. And he always seems angry at [00:19:30] me. Sometimes he was really close to me, but I have to say I have a crush on him and I do not know how to tell him. But I knew. He always seems to be really care about me and also sometimes can just flick around and totally annoy me, which I do not know what I have done. After about a year and a half, my father decided to move us back to [00:20:00] my hometown, which is south of Malaysia and during the holiday break, Um, because I miss him so much. So I say I wanted to go and visit him, but, um but I told people that I want to visit the girlfriend, but he was the main reason. So I went over and he really want me to stay with him and we both staying together. And there was a late night and we start having [00:20:30] these conversations and he sort of told, asked me, I remember asked me, um, if you have a secret, really big secret and you want to share with someone, what would you do? I said I would just tell the person I mean, like, you know, just being really honest and tell the other person that you know how you feel. And then I also start saying that I have a secret as well. So we just start having this game and [00:21:00] somehow we both able to acknowledge that we have feeling for for each other for some time. And, um, that was my first love. And that was, like, the best day ever to able to find someone that, you know, like you both have a mutual feeling. But at the same time, it was really hard because we have to be really secretive, [00:21:30] and And when you have such a mixed emotion and with such a young age, I still don't know how to cope with, you know, leaving the place and unable to see him again and don't know where am I going to see him again? All that. So there was a really hard time. Yeah, but, um, I'm very grateful that I had that experience because, um, that just really affirm [00:22:00] of what I really want in my life, which is being true to myself and able to find someone who loves me and will be able to share that mutual love. What age were you then? I was only 16. Um, and yeah, there was, like, 21 years ago, so you can figure out how I am. Um, yeah, but that is really amazing. And also [00:22:30] able to find out that actually, he had the same feeling towards me. Um, but the other things, as I mentioned before, you can share that with your friends. I remember. I told one of my very close, uh, schoolmates, um, at school when I came back, and her first reaction is and and I was really sad and because I thought she was my best friend and she sort of told me that, you know, like, all you pass is the [00:23:00] face and I was really devastated. And again, you know, like all these little small things just really affirm about what you already believe, which is you're not going to be able to live the life that you want. Were you having, um, conflict within yourself in terms of I don't want to be gay Or were you quite happy being gay? But it was just a society that didn't particularly like that. These are very good questions because [00:23:30] the fact is, I know I am gay, and I also know that I have no interest at all to a female. My, my friends, now sort of asking me, you know, like if I can have sex with a female and a very ugly elephant man, who would I pick? I say the very ugly ele elephant man, and they sort of say that they haven't met any gay people as in such an extreme. [00:24:00] I also tell people, if I if I having sex with a female, I would see myself as a lesbian. What that means is, you know, I really have No, um, I really have never been able to see female as an opposite sex, and I think for some people, it might be really hard to understand. But sometimes when you have such a strong feeling about who you are, of course you wouldn't be able to make. I mean, [00:24:30] I make myself to sleep with another female, so I'm very sure and very sure that I'm I only interested, um, in men and in a relationship and also the only problem that I see was the society wasn't able and not ready to accept that. And that taught me a lot of great deal of humanity, because I think if it's not, um, [00:25:00] it's not breaking the law of the society. Any love is acceptable. Um, and even just go down to, uh, racial tension as well. Um, in the end of the day, whether you bisexual, homosexual or straight so called, um, love is equal. When you love someone, you want to be with someone, everybody [00:25:30] should have the right to do. So, um, so I was really lucky that I came to New Zealand and New Zealand have the law that recognise same sex relationship. And I'm really grateful, especially from someone coming from a Muslim country. Um, and able to have the same rights is amazing in Malaysia at the time. Were there laws against homosexuality? [00:26:00] Yes. Um, if anyone's being found out as, um, having male relationship will be punished. Um, that actually happened at least 20 years ago when the deputy of Prime Minister is being accused of having same sex relationship with someone, and he was being sentenced to jail. Um, and there is just one [00:26:30] of the example. So it is against the law of a Muslim country and, um, in Malaysia as well. Um, having said that, my experience I knew there were a lot of hidden, um, scenes. Um, because I was one of them. How people were having unsafe sex and meeting in places where, um unsafe as [00:27:00] well. And I really felt for people who have to go through that because I was in that kind of environment to, um And you know, sometimes when you do things just because of the physical needs and after you fulfil your need and then you start thinking about what you're doing, it kind of quite scary, too, because quite often I might put myself [00:27:30] in danger that, you know, like, um, I would not want to, but because I felt I don't have that kind of, um, opportunity, um, as being is equal in what society has providing. So you sort of have to do everything under under the ground so that you will not get caught and so forth. Um, so how did that relationship with your first boyfriend [00:28:00] go? You were really bad because I think we both felt the same. Like having such a strong feeling in the age of 16. And, um, the the distance between me and him is almost like Auckland and Christchurch, Um, in New Zealand, so we can only communicate through letters and letters is not safe. Especially what you put in on [00:28:30] the on the piece of paper. So his sister discovers his letters. And then in the end, we have to call off the relationship because the sister told her mom and we both were really devastated because I know I was feeling very depressed. I I miss him so much. I was still studying school. My parents do not want me to move back to, uh, I, which is the south [00:29:00] of the northern part of Malaysia. And they sort of don't understand why I want to move there. And he cannot leave the family because he's the oldest of the three Children. So he has the obligation to look after his father father business. Um, so in the end, we just have to break it off. Um, and that also made me believe at the time, you know, like like I really wanted, [00:29:30] but also knowing that that's not going to happen. So I really appreciate what I have now. I mean, like, what I have now is impossible. I never thought that I could ever have the life that I dream of, uh, years ago, and I think I am truly blessed. Um, regardless of what kind of hardship I went through. But in the end, [00:30:00] I still think it's worth it. So around that age, did you have any idea that there were different ways of living in different countries? Um, not really. I mean, like, we we sort of getting a news in certain stages, like seeing how oversea or Europeans start recognising same sex relationship. For me, I was just like, this is this is impossible how how that can be. [00:30:30] And of course, because the news also being announced from, um from Malaysia and Singapore and all that and again, even when people were talking about that seems to be something really disgusting. And, you know, like, um, unbelievable. How can someone given those people those rights? Um, so it was just sounds like an impossible or something [00:31:00] that, you know, like because they will also talk about how, uh, oppositions sort of really angry about the proposed legislation or something. So you thought that will never go ahead as well. I can't remember the very first country who actually have the legislations passed through. But I was just so amazed. And on the same token, I know that that is only happening in certain part of the country. [00:31:30] And that's when I start thinking about leaving Malaysia. And also probably if I can find a way to go to the country, I might be able to do that. But I also do not know how to do it, that I didn't know that you can, um, get so called permanent resident and become citizenship and all that. Um so again, all that was just like [00:32:00] a dream. And during that time, there's no such a thing called Internet. So it's not like now you can just google it and find out a heaps of information, how to get to where you want it. And I don't have that circle of friends who has been overseas, um, and was able to get permanency overseas as well. So, um yeah, for me, it's still like a dream at the time. Hm. But there [00:32:30] is a point where that dream becomes reality and you came to New Zealand and what were your thoughts? I mean, suddenly you've got this whole kind of gay lesbian culture just actually out in the open. Or I honestly think when you suddenly have so much freedom, the first thing you do is you really abuse your freedom. So, I, I totally put myself out there. [00:33:00] I mean, like, I just like, you know, from nothing to suddenly you can have the the sweet you like. You want to make sure that you have all of them, you know, like because you don't know when you're going to get hungry again or you're not going to have the opportunity opportunity to eat a sweet again. So that was really out of control. I mean, like, I basically just do anything that I could, um, And again, that was a really learning curve, because then [00:33:30] I learned to know that I have to have the balance. Um, I do do a lot of stupid things or fun things at that time. Um, but I also very much wanting to stay in New Zealand, and what really helped me through was my study because, um, you know the the paper that I was doing, including sociology, and, um, reading [00:34:00] about the background of how New Zealand come to accept gay relationship and all that. Uh So I knew I found a place where I can finally call home and finally feel like I could be equally being, um, given and providing the same rights as everybody else. Um, and that was a relief [00:34:30] and an amazing feeling that finally I don't have to carry the weight of my life of um, from now on, I can finally just let it go and put it down. Um, and yeah, that was truly the most amazing feeling that anyone could have. Hm. And that that that also made me really appreciate New Zealand as well. And [00:35:00] seeing how, um, by providing the same rights, people able to grow and learn and then equally contribute to the society, still feel that they have to constantly hide themselves because, I mean, like, when I was in Malaysia, even as an adult, I still try to minimising my behaviour and still trying to just just able to go by [00:35:30] and and and not thinking about, um what else I can do. Uh, where is my potential? Um, where is right now? I would ask myself, you know, like what else I want to do, Uh, where where is my potential? I still want to grow. I still want to do more. Whereas before, I was just still waiting for the time. Um, when Finally, Finally, everything's finished. Hm? [00:36:00] Can you talk a wee bit about, uh, I'm interested in the, um, ideas of, um, being gay and whether it's, you know, just gay sex or whether it's, uh, a gay lifestyle living with partners in Malaysia. Did you have any kind of concept that you could actually live a completely gay life? Or was it very much just, you know, kind of sex acts? Um, I think is I. I talked about this before, Um, [00:36:30] when I was in school, and, uh, the the school teacher asked everybody what you want to be when you grow out. My answer was actually become a housewife, but I could not tell that I knew people is going to tease me about it, so I just make up something. Can't remember what I say. Um but that that is the nature nature instinct of what I want, which is a life where I have a husband and where [00:37:00] I can, um, have Children, Uh, where I can, um, be in love and equally share my love with someone at the age. Of course, you didn't think about sex, but as you grow older, as as your physical change and hormonal change and all that, I start having the the craving of, you know, like, wanted intimate relationship with men. [00:37:30] Um, and I. I think that's a very natural human instinct as well. The only differences is the person that I thinking about is male instead of female. Um, the curiosity that I have is how it felt like being kissed by a man, how it felt like being whole by a man and how it felt like being in love in a relationship with a man. Oh, I saw all [00:38:00] three of my sisters go through relationship with their boyfriend and I envy so much, you know, you see them getting married, dressed out, having that pre I post relationship. So, of course not just sex is what I so called lifestyle is a having a convenient where you know, if you create a safe heaven when you can go home and relax [00:38:30] and be yourself with the person that you love and care the most, um, and create the life that you want, Um, and that really speak about, um, me and my partner. Sometimes I have a very bad day at work or something. Get me down. But I know this person is waiting for me at home when I come home. Um, that gave me the safe feeling that [00:39:00] I needed. And so that that is how would I describe about everything? So do you think you'll ever go back and live in Malaysia? In no way, I. I thought about that. And, um, I was very clear with my parents as well. I. I told my parents, Look, if I'm here with Jerry, our relationship is to recognise anything happen. We [00:39:30] have the right, um, to whatever that I need to be done. But if we go back to Malaysia, our relationship will not be recognised. Um, so it doesn't mean a thing, um, for our relationship And if anything happen and that will not be having the same, um, mechanism that we can sort out our each other, uh, whatever that need to happen during that time. [00:40:00] So I was very clear with my families. And, um, one thing is one of my sister's son just recently came out as well and say that you know that he's gay, and my sister first thing she asked me was, you know, like what you reckon I say First, I want you to know it's not face. It is what it is. Uh, forget about whatever he could change, love him and treat him equally as [00:40:30] your another son. And I also told my sister, Look, you know, like the best is when we both able financially to get him to oversee and let him have the same opportunity. And I was really grateful that my sister was able to accept that immediately and also able to recognise that it is all right. Um, and probably it will be a little bit [00:41:00] difficult if he's still in Malaysia. So we will try to find a way that able to let him being educated in the overseas country and able to do what I'm doing now. Um, so again, even my sister also recognise that, you know, like being gay in Malaysia would be really hard for him. And her heart was aching. There was from her word knowing that what I have to go through, and I see her son [00:41:30] have to go through the same thing. But at the same time, I also felt some feel some comfort because knowing firsthand that, you know, like, um, you can still be who you are in the end of the day, you just need to have some plan, what you're going to do, um, enable in in order to enable and facilitate that humans growing process is not going to damage on the individual. Mhm. That must be very hard [00:42:00] to have to leave your home country knowing that there's probably, um, not going to be a way of you getting back with your partner. Yes, it is. And it was really hard as well. When you think about it because you knew you wouldn't you? You're not going to have the same opportunity as other people. You know, like if let's say, um, my partner is a female, at least we can look at a way, you know, like if there is going to be a better opportunity in career or whatever, that we [00:42:30] can go and do it. Of course, we can still do it. But that mean a lot of things will need to be changed. Like when we go beside our family, I cannot introduce Jerry as my partner. Like he will suddenly become just a friend who flirting with you. And then he will become this funny old friend that go to whatever places you go to together with you. So, um, it's not going to be healthy when you have to hide something especially so important [00:43:00] in your life. Um, so, yeah, in. I mean, like, in New Zealand, at least, you know, like we both are being recognised and not as a couple and able to do things together that we do not fear of how that's going to have repercussions in our life. Um, but also feeling sad about knowing that, um, I will have [00:43:30] to leave, um, my mom, my father and my sisters behind and missing a lot of big occasions when this Chinese New year, Um, or seeing my nephew and nieces growing out. Uh, and that sometimes, um, some time. A few years ago, I finally able to put it aside because I always felt quite sad when I think about I wouldn't be able to be in part of [00:44:00] their life. Uh, because I I love my sisters, uh, sons and daughters and and you suddenly missing out a lot of that kind of joy. Um, but again, I just have to accept. The fact is, sometimes you you you just have to, you know, you gain something, you lost something. So and, um, yeah, there's always [00:44:30] some sacrifice that I will have to make, um, from time to time. Mm.
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