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Julie, you've written a book about a person called Iris. Florence Peter Williams. The audacious story. And and this was, um, you You you were able to release this book last year. Can can you give us, um, some background about, uh, why Iris? Florence Peter Williams intrigued you. OK, um, it's a detective story. It was a detective story. Um, it intrigued me [00:00:30] because I knew nothing about, um, the story, except for a profile. So how it came about was, um I was, um, giving a presentation with, um, Alison Laurie, my co-author of, um, Park Park and Hume. A previous book with, uh, that we had done together. And, um, during this present after the presentation, someone came up to me and said, Oh, you and gave me a clipping from a newspaper article, Um, 1945 newspaper article. Um, [00:01:00] uh, report actually not article, but report from Auckland and said, Oh, you might be interested in this. You're interested in history and and, you know, so on. And, um and I read it, and it was about two women who had married in 1945 and they'd been found out, and, um, they actually got married in the Auckland registry in an Auckland registry office, and they were prosecuted because it was an offence against the marriage act. So two women couldn't get married? Of course. [00:01:30] Um, but, um uh, what the The thing was that one of them was, uh, presenting herself as a man. Um, but somehow they'd been chopped in. And when the more details came out about it, um, it was found that, uh, the person who was presenting herself as a man, um, had actually tried to join the forces in 1940 as a man, um, but had been shopped in at that time by her mother, [00:02:00] who said my daughter's trying to join the army to go away to World War Two. And, uh, and this person is is really, you know, my daughter, a woman. So, um, uh, I didn't know who the people were, So when I say detective story I, I only had a profile because they said the during the court case, which was reported in the paper, um, their their actual, um, identification. Um, details were suppressed. So, um, all I knew was that, [00:02:30] uh, it was a woman of 30 marrying another woman of 18. Um, I knew a bit about their background as came out during the court case. Um, so I I wrote an article about about that. But just based on, you know, the the ideas that were presented at that time, Um, and I thought, how am I going to find out? Maybe I'll never find out, but, um, who these people actually were, and I really wanted to find out who they actually were and what happened to them. So, [00:03:00] um, with the profile, I went to the archives and searched the marriage registers until I found a pattern that fitted. And, um, so I knew 30 18, um, 1 was a twin. The other was a, um a labourer. Um, one was, uh, clerical was doing clerical work. Um, so I just trawled through the registrations to marry, um, for 1945 for Auckland for, uh, I think it was July. Um, so [00:03:30] I had a time period and so on, and I went through, and, um and I can still remember today the sort of feeling, um, you know, um, he stood stood up on the back of me of my neck I suppose, um, when I went through and I thought, This is it. This has got to be them. But I still wasn't sure. And, uh, um, when I got so you just see the intention. You don't see all of the details when you get the intention to marry, and you have to get [00:04:00] the actual marriage certificate. Um, so I was pretty sure, but I wasn't totally sure. Uh, when I got the marriage certificate there it was, um, all the details about them and written across it was the, uh, the parties to this were female, um, referral. You know, uh, notifications about this to the registrar general. So this is this is afterwards someone had gone back to that certificate and written a note on it. Correct. [00:04:30] So, like, after someone had complained or correct? Correct. So they actually actually got married. Um, And the reg, all those details were as if they were a man and a woman, and, uh, the marriage certificate was issued to these two people. Um, but, you know, then they found out that they were both women, so the marriage certificate was, you know, didn't hold because it's not legal. it was not legal in 1945. So, um uh, they [00:05:00] were then prosecuted and, you know, is making an offence under the marriage act. Um, and they were, um, sentenced to probation for five years. Three years? Sorry. Both of them were pro. Yep. And, um um, But what was intriguing was that, um, Iris's mother, Iris Florence, born Iris Florence, then later known as Peter Williams. Um, that, uh, Iris's mother was a was a party to the marriage [00:05:30] and knew that they were, You know, that her daughter was presenting as a man, Of course. So she signed it under a false name. You know, the name that they they used. Um, So So that's how it started. And so from there, I knew who the actual people were. And then I tried to trace what happened to, um, Peter Iris. Florence Peter Williams from there, and I did I try. I traced through marriage and divorce registers. Um, I traced through post post office registers. Um, [00:06:00] the you know, when you vote, um, uh, yes. Thank you. And so on to try and trace some movements and so on after and before that. So they they? They? Their registration was annulled as married. Yeah, I don't know. Did they split up? Did you? They were. They were supposed to never meet, and they were supposed to have psychiatric treatment. So, um, as far as I'm aware, they they didn't meet. [00:06:30] Um, after that, um, they may have I don't know. Um, but they they were both working at the same factory in Auckland, and so they were, um uh they lost their jobs. Um, And, uh, after after all this happened, um uh, Peter, um you know, basically I, I think tried to play it cool and try to get through the next three [00:07:00] years with the attention of the authorities. Once the probation period was up, Um, he and his mother went up north to, and they went into, and they made a declaration around, um, Peter's, um, birth certificate. And his mother attested that that had been a mistake. And it actually, um, it was all a mix up and really Iris Florence was really a male, so the birth certificate was actually formally changed. Um, [00:07:30] so that from that point on, he he could, um, uh, be officially a man, right? So they didn't have to produce any medical. Even she just she made an attestation. I believe that she did that with the support of, um, people. Um, and I don't know who those I know who signed that declaration with her, and I haven't been able to uncover the relationship there, but I think that it was, um, a supportive relationship [00:08:00] of either other family or friends. Um, to enable her to do that. Um, because you couldn't do that at the time. Yeah, but you'd found out that the mother had actually earlier. Yes, basically altered totally. Peter, when Peter wanted to join the, um And I've got the, um the documentation from the defence department. Um, So I know for sure it was her mother who did that. Um, but I don't know who outed them in 1945. I suspect it could [00:08:30] have been, um, um, Peter's previous relationship. Um, And she you know, it was a acrimonious split up because he split up with her to be with the woman he married in 1945 so that that would be my suspicion, But I don't have the evidence for that. Yeah. And so, Peter Peter lived as a man. Yes. Yeah. Um, yeah. He lived as a man in the fifties, played it, you know, lived under the radar, got [00:09:00] married, got divorced, got married again, got divorced, um, and then finally met his last partner. And, uh, they had a very happy relationship and, uh, a most supportive and loving relationship. And so, um, I don't have my book here right now, but I like to, um, kind of read the last bit where, um, you know, from someone who is, um, a man, a woman, a child, a daughter? [00:09:30] Um, um, a wife, a husband, um, transgender, lesbian, um, female, not female, Respected, despised, um, loved and much treasured at the end of his life. Um, so to me, it's a wonderful, um, success. Successful life by someone who, uh, had to operate within a very restrictive society and just found their way [00:10:00] to do that. Um, with some fear. So, um yeah, and you you spoke to, um, a couple of partners. I spoke to his first wife who was still alive. Um, but she didn't really want to, um, give me any information or talk about it at all. She simply said, that's water under the bridge, which I thought was a real shame. Um, and I spoke to, um, the the wife's twin brother, [00:10:30] and he gave me a little bit of information, but he again, he was a little bit worried and didn't want to, you know, give speak, You know about it too much. But he did, um, give me information which enabled me to track down where they were both working at the time that they were, um, married and uncovered. Um, and I met his, uh, I didn't meet. I spoke to his last wife. Um, and we asked if she would be involved. Um, but and she saw [00:11:00] a copy of the manuscript and so on. But she didn't want to be involved because, um, she didn't want to be exposed. So I've changed some names in the book to protect people living. Um, but the facts of the case are true. How long were you working on the book for? Well, I was given the article in about, uh I think it was about 1995 or six. And then I just parked it, um, because I was busy and I couldn't [00:11:30] see a way forward with it. So I wrote an article without finding out who they were. Um, but the more I thought about it, the more I thought, Oh, I really want to find out what happened to this person. Because it really happened. Like it's not a made up story. It really happened. And someone, if there was a person like Iris, Florence, Peter Williams, there are more people. Yeah, so it's just an example. Um, I picked it up again in the 2004 [00:12:00] or five. Something like that. Um, and I. I basically wrote it up in 2008. Um, but it's taken some time to have to get access to records because some are closed for a certain time. And it took a It took time to, um, get responses to lines of inquiry. If you if you know what I mean. So the elapse time was quite quite a bit, um, and then, uh, took about a year to get from a manuscript point to publication. [00:12:30] Yeah. So? So when did Peter die? 1993 1993. So you really started looking pretty much straight after you, so you wouldn't have known that. No, no, not at the time. And, um, when I found out when he died, I thought, Oh, damn. I would really have liked to have approached him to see if he would speak with me. How old would he have been when he died? At 78? Um, and once you've, um, published [00:13:00] the book, now it's out there. Has anyone sort of contacted you since about Peter or or other people? No, no, no, they haven't there. Yeah, and kind of have a lot of wealth of information out there about other people, like you say, living who have lived like that or are living like that. That's right. Um, well, I mean, not just here, but, you know, throughout the world, of course, Um, and not just during this time period, but on other time [00:13:30] periods. I mean, Jonathan Katz's work of American gay American history is, you know, um, points to heaps of, um, people who in the past who've, um, lived not in in the straight world. So, um, and there's just more and more coming out, you know, as more people do more of us do more research from our own angle, not from a straight angle. So, um, there's more to find and more to talk about. More to consider, more to discuss [00:14:00] from all different angles. Um, um, I've just looked at from, you know, my view and from where I come from, um, but someone else can look at the same experiences and, uh, have different interpretations, which I think is wonderful. There you've written about, um, someone else who's, um, who lived in similar circumstances or, um, not [00:14:30] really. But in the course of doing that work, um, I've come across, um, other people, um, other women, other men in New Zealand. So there's a heap of research that is to be done. Um, one of one of the women, um, we I came across was, uh, went under the name Peter Stratford as it as it is. Uh, and she was, um, died in the United States in 1929. [00:15:00] And, uh, she actually was came from New Zealand. Um, and, uh, her name was Stratford. Because that's where she lived. Her actual name just escapes me right now. Dearly. Morton is the name. Um, but, uh, she went from here to the United States and lived and worked in the United States. Um, from early in the 19th 20th century, Um, and, uh, she, uh, actually was involved [00:15:30] with a woman who's reasonably well known in the United States. Uh, so there's archival material in the United States associated with the writer woman, um, which, you know, holds material about Deli and her life there as a as a man. Um, so, you know, there's a lot more to be done, and I'm considering doing something about that, but I'll see how I go. Yeah, exciting. And your, um, your book is available? Yes. [00:16:00] Um, it's available in Unity Books and Woman's Bookshop in Auckland. And if they don't have a book in stock, um, you can get it from there or from Steele Roberts, the publisher directly. So, um, ST Roberts is based in Wellington. So, uh, there's a website you can go on to their website, steal Roberts, uh, Steele Roberts one word dot co dot NZ. And so you can order through the website and and the name of the book again is perfectly natural. The audacious story of [00:16:30] Iris Florence Peter Williams. Now just remind us where the perfectly natural came Oh, when I was thinking of a title for the book, Um, I couldn't think of anything better than the words of Peter himself. Um, and when he was interviewed, he was actually interviewed by reporters. And that's how come we have some of this. I have some of this material. Um, when When they were, um uh, found out in 1945. Um, reporters found out who they were and went to Peter's flat in [00:17:00] Grafton, Auckland, and, um interviewed him, and, uh, and he said, Well, you know, I don't know what's going to happen now. My wife and I were going to be split up. Um, I've lost my job. Um, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know why we just can't be left alone. We're not harming anyone, and, um, I am perfectly natural. So I wanted to use as much of Peter's own words given, you know, I'm coming in, you know, a random person after after his life, [00:17:30] and he doesn't know about me. And, um and, uh, I thought it was great to be able to bring his words out.
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