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Kia ora, I'm Tabby Besley. I'm the Managing Director here at Inside Out Koaro. We're a national charity with a vision for all rainbow young people to have a sense of safety and belonging in their schools and communities. Kia ora, my name is River Ato. Um, I am the communications coordinator here at Inside Aotearoa. So this interview has been inspired, well I'm not sure if the word inspired is the right word, but um, there has been um, quite a significant increase in kind of anti rainbow sentiment in [00:00:30] Aotearoa New Zealand over the last six months to a year. And so I thought this would be a great opportunity for us to um, just talk about that and how that's affected. And I'm wondering, um, initially, uh, can you describe when you first became aware of the kind of ramping up of negativity? Um, yeah, I think in general, um, alongside the COVID pandemic, and I guess the, the sort of rise in kind of disinformation, [00:01:00] um, uh, online, particularly around, um, the vaccine and mandates, there was already a kind of coalescing of, um, kind of transphobic and anti rainbow, anti trans points of view within those communities. But I think that, um, uh, following The kind of dropping of the mandate and the parliamentary protests, the arrival of Posey Parker to Aotearoa earlier this year, um, really, um, uh, coalesced [00:01:30] that those communities, uh, people who had been impacted by kind of disinformation and those kind of anti vaccine, um, movements, um, around, uh, this kind of imported, uh, cultural targeting, targeting. transgender and rainbow people. Um, so yes, a particular increase in that kind of content and harassment targeting our communities following her arrival in Aotearoa, um, over the, the, the weeks and months following. But [00:02:00] yes, more broadly throughout the kind of course of the pandemic. Yeah, I think particularly last year, we started to see more kind of headlines and things happening like the, um, the arson of Rainbow Youth and, um, the graffiti on, um, Gloria, which is, um, the pink church, um, in Greymouth, um, by artist Sam Ducker Jones, who's actually now on our team as well, which is very cool. Um, . So yeah, we started to see that. And obviously the increase, um, particularly in the UK and the us, um, around [00:02:30] anti rainbow and trans and drag kind of laws and, um, the kind of turf transexclusionary, radical feminist, um, I don't know the, I don't wanna say movement, I don't wanna call it that, but you know, like the, the firing up of that. But it was, Yeah, for us specifically in terms of when we started to be targeted, it really was in March, um, when just pretty much that week that Posey Parker came and then for kind of the months following. Yeah, and I think that [00:03:00] that in part results from the fact that we, I guess, I played a public role in trying to challenge the immigration minister's decision to allow posy Parker into the country. So we are part of that judicial review process, but then also, you know, made an effort to really support and uplift our communities during that time period. Um, and that garnered a lot of attention on social media. And I guess also naturally because of our work in schools and with young people, um, we're kind of [00:03:30] uniquely vulnerable to, to the kind of cultural war. Talking points that, that are fear mongering about, um, kind of quote unquote gender ideology in schools. And so all that kind of heinous accusations of indoctrination and, um, the impact of our work on, on young people kind of made us a prime target, I think. So you mentioned two physical examples of, um, the arson and the defacing. And I'm wondering, can you take it a step back further [00:04:00] and, and think about the, the kind of, um, online. Um, amount of negativity. Could you see a rise in that prior to those physical attacks? Personally, at least from the lens of Inside Out, until March, we pretty much have never experienced any hate or harassment online. Very, you know, it's 11 years and I've been here that whole time, dealing with it most of the time. And that's, it's.. [00:04:30] I, you know, I can't think of any examples of how rare it would have been. Like, there was one time where I got an email, I think, I can't remember the detail, um, and it became a media story because actually the person who sent it from their work email was like a real estate agent and he'd seen me on TV and called me a faggot or something like that. Like, It's, it was so rare and then from March it became like just an overwhelming amount and kind of daily. I think more broadly for our communities definitely we've seen that rise in transphobia in [00:05:00] particular online over the last few years. Yeah. I mean, I know that we've also been targeted by, um, TERFs in Aotearoa with sort of kind of malicious OIA requests regarding our kind of work in schools. Um, but I guess, yeah, the kind of the growth of, um, kind of, yeah. The growth and presence of TERFs, um, online, and I guess internationally, because of the ways that the internet is so global, um, and so kind of interconnected, [00:05:30] I mean, obviously, with the rise of, of those kind of, yeah, yeah, the kind of global transphobia that was definitely impacting, um, Our communities here in Aotearoa in online space. Um, but I think that a lot of that came sort of internationally, um, rather than locally. So, so do you think it was, um, kind of initiated internationally or is it just that the international material is feeding into what was already here. I think both. Um, obviously if [00:06:00] you look into the, the kind of, the money behind people like Posey Parker, we're looking at, you know, CPAC and big conservative, um, kind of lobbies and organizations in the United States. Um, there's definitely like a lot of money in general behind the kind of, the, the rise in sort of, Transphobic, um, kind of legislation and politics in the United States. I mean, there've been various leaks of, of, of email showing that this was like a coordinated effort to, to make this a kind of key wedge issue, um, over the past few years. But [00:06:30] I think that, yeah, here in El Tirodor, yeah, it's, it's probably connected with the kind of, Yeah, more of the kind of conspiracy theory space of people who are already kind of vulnerable to beliefs about kind of, um, dark forces at play in the society. Um, and I guess, you know, being primed with, with that already being in community often, you know, Facebook groups or kind of telegram channels, et cetera, where people are kind of sharing that stuff. I [00:07:00] guess that that sort of probably bled in a bit more organically, but it's also true that there have been kind of, um, actors who have specifically coordinated, I guess, perhaps taking it and are taking advantage of that, you know, Brian Talmachy and Destiny Church being one example, Sean Taubaker, Sean Plunkett, other people in the kind of broader far right Disinformation space. And then obviously now Winston Peters, New Zealand first and the ACT party, um, as well, [00:07:30] kind of courting those communities. So I guess where my point of view would be that there's a kind of, yeah, there's international money and sort of quite organized campaigns to make this a issue that have been imported here, both organically and deliberately. And then You know, there are political actors and people who, who see that, yeah, this is potentially a source of mobilization, um, for various reasons. [00:08:00] So in terms of who is being targeted, in, in terms of the communities, are, are there specific parts of the communities that are being targeted, or is it a kind of a more of of rainbow targeting? Definitely. Trans people, trans women, are more targeted particularly with conversations at the moment around like, um, trans women's participation in sports, um, whether trans women should be allowed to use women's toilets, these kinds of [00:08:30] things. Um, often, often that's the center of the conversation. So, yeah, so definitely, um, trans women and trans people. Um, Drag has been a big, big target, particularly, um, you know, there's been events disrupted where people are doing drag story times. We held a drag artist panel that was, um, yeah, received a lot of, um, attention, negative attention, those kinds of things. But it does expand to our broader rainbow communities as well. And a lot of the, [00:09:00] a lot of the stuff coming to Inside Out is some of it. is around us as an organization. There's a lot of, um, you know, the same kinds of language and things that was used against people, to the best of my knowledge, during the homosexual law reform being used, um, to describe anyone connected to our organization and, um, the, yeah, the work that we do with schools and young people in particular. So, um, yeah, I'd say definitely there's specific targets, but [00:09:30] it does affect everyone more broadly too. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that, yeah, the kind of tropes that we're seeing recycled have definitely been historically deployed, you know, in the United States and in Aotearoa, you know, around the kind of Section 28 stuff in the UK. Um, yeah, and it's definitely not limited to trans people, but I think that these, yeah, the kind of.. people stoking these fears and [00:10:00] targeting trans people have the broader aim of kind of expanding and targeting our communities and we're already sort of seeing that as kind of trans trans rights and sort of access to health care are being targeted and um, banned and rolled back in the United States. We're also seeing like the rollback of kind of reproductive rights and, you know, challenges being made to kind of, yeah, the parental rights of, of other rainbow people and potentially, you [00:10:30] know, marriage equality down the line. So it's all connected, but definitely trans people are being specifically targeted. And the organizations that are supporting communities like yourselves, are there other organizations you're aware of that are also being targeted? We work closely with a lot of the other organisations and I don't think anyone else has seen, um, is receiving the same. level or, or kind of what we, what we are seeing. I know Gender Minorities Aotearoa has also, [00:11:00] yeah, has also received, um, yeah, some stuff probably particularly, um, closer to March when we were all kind of in the media around trying to prevent Posy Parker. Um, I think they don't have as much of an active presence on social media and they don't do that work in schools, which has kind of made us that unique, um, target. Um, recently we're aware of, um, Malgris, I think the longest running, um, gay and lesbian association in the country, um, in Palmerston North. They, um, had a drag story time, um, event interrupted just last month, [00:11:30] I believe, or a few weeks ago, where, um, the people involved have also kind of owned firearms and have threatened them, and it's, yeah, kind of escalated. There's been some good wraparound support in their local community, um, yeah, aware, I think, of other kind of library events and, and drag story times in particular being targeted, but, um, I think a lot of it is, is, um, Um, not so much targeted at organizations beyond us, it's more broader, this attack on, yeah, particularly trans people and, um, [00:12:00] that's, yeah, playing out on kind of social media and in the media itself, just the amount of, um, yeah, headlines and that kind of thing. So, so the kind of, um, uh, attacks you're getting on, um, Can you describe what they're like? So give me examples of where they're coming from and what kind of stuff is happening. Yeah, so on Facebook. Doing a kind of cursory look through the kinds of accounts that have been engaging with, yeah, [00:12:30] generally responding and reacting to just normal social media posts of various kinds, whether they're talking about legislation or advertising events. Yeah. Sort of making comments, telling us, you know, just to stay away from children. Um, you know, calling, calling the work that we do kind of in indoctrination and gender ideology. Um, definitely. Or. Um, I guess on the more extreme end, the kind [00:13:00] of, yeah, accusations of, of kind of being groomers or pedophiles, we saw more of that on Twitter. Um, yeah, we've sort of effectively made the decision to kind of, yeah, really limit our posting on that platform because just, yeah, especially with the changes to the platform, um, in recent months, since Elon Musk took over, you know, the sort of safety and the ability to sort of exist, like. On Twitter without being really targeted by harassment. Um, yeah, it has gone away. [00:13:30] Um, yeah, the classic, yeah, the classic groomer lines, but yeah, I guess also, yeah, other bits of sort of disinformation. Um. Yeah, kind of comments about, you know, who was funding, who is funding you telling us that we're kind of like this labor party, you know, funded or asking questions about that sometimes, perhaps in good faith, sometimes, you know, not so much in good faith and taking a look at the kind of people's profiles, um, it [00:14:00] seems like, yeah, disproportionately Pākehā middle aged, um, parents, mostly women. Hmm. Not, not all, um, I've sort of biased towards kind of rural communities and people who tend to have posted, um, you know, content, um, about, you know, sort of vaccines suggesting that they are already kind of in kind of anti vax or conspiracy theory movements or, uh, [00:14:30] kind of, yeah, coming from a kind of evangelical Christian, um, kind of faith based lens, which we already know is entangled. So yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, Facebook and Twitter seem to be the places where we've been most targeted. In addition to that, we had like, I guess, a handful of kind of voicemails that were just kind of harassing us. There was one like, threat to come to our office. It didn't eventuate into anything, but we had to make a report to the police around that one. Um, [00:15:00] and yeah, just kind of saying some of those same things. Those appear to be from men. Um, we have also, I guess, Yeah, what we were speaking to is more the kind of individual social media comments. And then we, um, yeah, have, as you kind of alluded to, been also targeted, um, in terms of OIA requests for all of our government funders. Um, so all of our government funders have received OIA requests asking, you know, what money. We get what, what for, and that came from Voices for Freedom and Democracy and Z2O2. [00:15:30] Um, you know, um, fringe conservative attempts at political parties. Um, or, I can't remember, one of them sent something and one sent the other. Um, and, and particularly for our, the work that we do with, um, in schools. There's also been really thorough OIA requests trying to get a lot more information about that, asking things about. You know, puberty blockers and things, which isn't what we do. Um, yeah, so that, that was a different level of attack because that [00:16:00] also takes up our resource having to go back, you know, work with the government to, like, respond to those, look at, is there any information, you know, for example, in our funding report backs that might be actually a safety risk to release to them and so on. Um, we also had, um, we had a Disney, um, Um, pride fundraiser with the warehouse this year that supported our school's pride week campaign. And so the warehouse was selling, um, you know, things like Mickey Mouse, rainbow socks, um, and 5% of the proceeds went back to us to [00:16:30] support our school's pride week campaign. Um, and so they got hold of this. Someone made a poster saying it's the labor, the labor government's inside out. It's funding puberty blockers through the warehouse. Like, you know, it's really, um, taking it and. Yeah, creating this dis this hype and this disinformation that then people would engage with, um, and that got a lot of attention and then Brian Tamaki jumped on it and was in the media, well, he did a, uh, a sermon, I think, or whatever you want to call [00:17:00] it, something, um, speaking about how the warehouse, uh, um, giving out puberty blockers, um, and what that was about. He was getting at is that they're fundraising and giving 5% of some Mickey Mouse rainbow socks to it's like But that became the whole thing in the media and the warehouse received a lot of harassment So they call centers were kind of inundated during that time There's stuff getting harassment and so on and so for that That creates these extra concerns for us of like, or if our funders are also being attacked, is that gonna, are they gonna want to partner with us [00:17:30] again, just not because they wouldn't support the work, but just because that creates extra work or, you know, if their staff are having to go through that. So, we're yet to, I guess, sort of know the outcome in that particular relationship, if that would change whether or not they partnered with us again. Um, but it does make you worry. Um, Yeah, about those, those things when you know the extent of, if it's not just reaching us, it's, um, yeah, it's getting to them. Um, Yeah, so those are some of the types of ways that [00:18:00] we've kind of been under attack. Um, and particularly right now, it's moved on. I think in, when it, things really started in March, it was in direct response to Posey Parker's visit, and kind of this general, just attacking anything we put out for a while. Um, it's just every, every post, didn't matter what it was, there'd be negativity generally. Um, and in the last few months, it's really more around.. Um, relationships and sexuality education in school, the pushback to that and teaching anything to do with gender diversity in schools. Um, [00:18:30] there's also been a lot of, um, mis and disinformation spread about what our role in that is. So there's, um, People saying that, you know, the Ministry of Education funds us millions of dollars, that we, um, we are responsible for the curriculum, these kinds of things, which we're not responsible for the curriculum. We currently don't receive any funding from the Ministry of Education. The, um, the curriculum that people are talking about is this new curriculum that we've introduced or whatever. It's actually just the Relationships and Sexuality [00:19:00] Education Guidelines that were updated in 2020. So it's, there's just so much, yeah. The truth is not being told and people are really, um, believing it. And then the election cycle that we're currently in just makes it even more dangerous because political parties can then jump on that to, yeah, to put their two cents in or, yeah, it becomes an issue in public meetings and so on. People will ask questions about it and there's a lot of, yeah, potential harm to our communities there. [00:19:30] You've mentioned, uh, posting on social media and I'm guessing that, uh, you, you moderate those posts so that most people wouldn't see those responses. But how does that affect the people within Inside Out who are having to moderate and see all of that material? I mean, yeah, it definitely takes a sort of significant and kind of cumulative emotional toll. I think that. Um, I [00:20:00] guess there's sort of three of us, Tabby, myself and our operations and engagement lead, um, who are kind of most on the front line of kind of moderating, deleting, blocking comments and so, so on. But I think that, um, yeah, I mean, we try and do that as quickly as possible to get them off blocking people, deleting comments. We know that the traditional reporting mechanisms on the various social media platforms like don't work then and they certainly don't work if they do work, they don't look fast enough to [00:20:30] protect like our communities who might see them from them. So, um, yeah, I think that it from an organizational point of view, it wastes a lot of time and energy that. We could better spend actually doing the, the work to support people. Um, and then, you know, in the cases where we get comments that sometimes it's strategically better to kind of put a response out to having to kind of make those judgments and assessments, how much kind of debunking or pre bunking [00:21:00] do we do? I mean, even just like the strategic considerations take time and energy and I guess a kind of constantly Evolving or we're kind of constantly evolving But I think that trans people and our communities if we're online generally are being exposed to this kind of stuff everywhere all the time at the moment. So it's also a broader context in which we're all aware of what's happening kind of in the space [00:21:30] and what's happening in the United States and in the United Kingdom. And I guess that in general costs, I kind of. PAL and it kind of takes its emotional toll, especially when we have to show up to do this work. And it matters to us and we want to support people in our communities, but it's also, we're part of those communities too. So yeah, I would say that it's definitely had an impact on our staff and it's had an impact on our capacity as well. Which is partly the goal of it, you know, honestly, [00:22:00] yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think particularly it was, yeah, sort of mid March to July. It was almost daily that we were getting things. And I didn't mention to also, of course, the hate emails, the people that don't put it there, but they send it directly. And again, these. Some of those kind of people trying to naive inquire, ask about your funding and things, but you know, you know where they're coming from. Um, and we had a lot of emails and attack, particularly in our school's pride week, again, in an organized campaign to try and stop schools from taking part in [00:22:30] that as well. So yeah, there was lots of emails too, during that time. Those we would report to NetSafe and yeah, on social media. For me personally, I think in my role, as a sustained person as well, I was really. Yeah, trying to prevent our wider, like, team or our communities from having to see those comments. But it also meant that I felt like I couldn't shut off or, like, be away from my phone during that period where it was constant. And I'd remember, like, you know, [00:23:00] Saturday morning waking up and pick up my phone. Oh, all these things have got to quickly switch into that brain and delete. I remember one Friday night in bed where this guy, I was just, I turned my light off, I was going to bed and my phone lit up. And it was this. This guy posted something on Facebook and at that time on Facebook, on the mobile app, you couldn't block someone. And I just deleted his comment. 20 minutes went on where he would go to another post, he'd post something, I'd delete it. I just wanted to go to sleep. It would just keep going. And so in the [00:23:30] end I had to like, get out of bed, go to my desktop computer and, you know, block him. Thankfully now they've introduced it, you can just block someone on the mobile app. Um, but it was just like those things of like in your downtime, not being able to fully switch off and feeling like you. Yeah, we still had to be like monitoring that, um, we've since learned some great things like you can actually turn Facebook posts, um, comments just to people that follow you. And so that's, since we've done, put things like that in place that, um, helps prevent people from [00:24:00] commenting cause they don't really want to have to like your page unless they're, you know, that extra level of committed. So, um, which some people are. Yeah. Yeah. But at the time, I think as well, because we hadn't experienced anything like it and we were. It was very reactive and just in the moment and you're, it's not the focus, you're doing a million things and we were actually trying to respond to the needs in our communities at that time. Um, and, yeah, so we went. Maybe thinking as, um, smartly as we could have, but we're just kind of living in that. And yeah, it definitely took [00:24:30] a toll. And it wasn't actually until it really stopped that I noticed the difference and how I was feeling of like how much it had been kind of impacting me. Um, and for a lot of our, our team and like, yeah, our wider communities, it's just been such a, such a difficult time. And it is hard when it is your, like River was saying, it's, um. Yeah, it's in the media and everywhere you're constantly engaging with, and then it's also your job to deal with it and so on. So it's a lot. And we're really hopeful that we won't [00:25:00] see anything quite like it again. But that feels unfortunately unlikely. Yeah, I mean, and this, you know what we've anecdotally experienced ourselves individually and as an organization is backed up by the disinformation projects research, which showed that Following Posey Parker's visit, there was a genocidal rise in both the nature of and like degree and volume of kind of, yeah, transphobic rhetoric, rhetoric [00:25:30] targeting our communities and that Yeah, there are kind of clear connections between some of that and, um, yeah, kind of broader white nationalist fascist, um, kind of organizing and, and, and groups within Aotearoa New Zealand. So yeah, it's kind of, yeah, it extends beyond, yeah, beyond. Yeah, like rainbow communities and it's definitely connected to the rise in kind of anti Māori rhetoric that we're seeing also. Um, and then, you know, for our communities that exist at the [00:26:00] intersections of being rainbow and Māori or rainbow and not Pākehā. Um, you know, those impacts and vulnerabilities compound. Yeah. So how many people do you think you've blocked on social media? I think I've probably blocked at least 50 people on Facebook, if not more. Um, I guess that, yeah, I went through a period of kind of mass blocking because I thought that, you know, once a critical mass of people are simply [00:26:30] removed from the page. I mean, and also, I guess, yeah, recognizing that people who have been vulnerable to disinformation from like a mental health and well being point of view. Like actually not good for them or their communities either. If they are kind of constantly being, I guess, yeah, yeah. Showing content from us that like is triggering this kind of reaction and this desire to, to respond and to share and to fuel these cycles of outrage. So yeah, I was sort of taking [00:27:00] the approach of it's a bit of all people involved to, to like, just actually. Remove that from their social media spheres. And some very dedicated people have like created new accounts, but I think in general, some of them may not have realized, but yeah, a 50 plus, but then also, you know, odd comments that we've deleted here and there without blocking people. Most of the time I would just, cause I'd usually, I'd be doing something else that would come up on my phone. I just delete the comment and then if they came back, I would block them if, if I could, if it wasn't on my phone. [00:27:30] Um, but. I would usually just delete the comment because I didn't want anyone else to have to see that as soon as possible. Retrospectively, I wish we had done a bit more, um, data collection. I have, like, a few things screenshotted that I particularly thought was funny or, like, later in the piece I started to do that. But, um, like, there was one that, um, just, this wasn't actually on our page. And that's another thing, I guess, this was also, like, these conversations about us were happening in other spaces. Um, particularly, again, some of those, yeah, more. [00:28:00] Um, like the New Conservatives, they love to hate us as well, for instance, Family First, those other groups, so, Um, there was one that called us, um, described inside out as the Addams Family, and I just thought that was quite funny, actually. So I took a screenshot of that one. I was like, I don't think our team would think that's a bad thing. Um, that's, maybe that's a compliment. Um, we also had, like, Sean Plunkett doing, oh, and this, oh, what's his name? I can't remember his name. It's gone from my head. Some guy who did this, um, investigative journalism piece [00:28:30] for, um, the platform. Kind of on and so on. It was all, that was I think where some of that stuff about, oh, they get all this money from the Ministry of Education and stuff. I was like, hardly anything in it was. True, so he's not a very good investigative journalist. Um, and, but they were also making it personal, so like, they were making fun of how some of our staff listed their star signs on their bios on our website, for example, and making a whole joke about how, oh, no one at the organization has any qualifications. They just think that having star sign is like, whatever. Um, [00:29:00] so. I don't know where I was going with that, but just, just the, yeah, the layers of it. Um, but it would've, retrospectively it would've been really interesting to actually really capture the numbers and what, what all of that was and look at things. But obviously we were just, um, in the moment reacting, hoping no one else would have to see, see that. Do you think you can actually have a conversation or debate with people who are sending those really negative comments? I mean, are they wanting to engage like that [00:29:30] or is it just something else? No, I mean, I don't think that there's much research that supports the efficacy of engaging with people who are kind of coming from that place. I think particularly if they're coming from a place of kind of, yeah. Yeah, if that place is being informed by mis and disinformation, yeah, ignorance about our communities, and if it is kind of hateful, threatening. Yeah, we know that that even presenting sort of [00:30:00] facts to people in this kind of situations like doesn't do much to sort of change their opinion and that it's it's driven by. Yeah, kind of a much more emotional place and Yeah, I think if we've been built up to be this kind of scary threatening force in the society There's really nothing that we can do or say to change people's opinions So yeah, yeah, I don't think that we've ever really taken the approach of even trying to like really actively counter it [00:30:30] because sometimes even trying to counter it can actually just further spread the disinformation and yeah I guess we're sort of in the Process of trying to figure out what the best practices are in terms of dealing with it strategically. But, um, Yeah, I guess we're, we're sort of taking a community care point of view primarily. So just trying to protect our young people and our communities from seeing it. Um, yeah, and then trying to, yeah, trying to convince people who aren't already down the rabbit, down the rabbit hole, like, that our [00:31:00] communities, like, need support. Um, and we probably think that that's where, like, we're more likely to get that solidarity. And yeah, I think, yeah, foremost, we're an organization for, for young people and for making a difference for them. And so, yeah, we want things like our social media to be a safe and positive where possible, you know, like a place or not for them to have to, to see it there. Um, but inside out so much of our work is about education. So we do so much work going into workplaces and so on. A lot of those people are parents or they'll hold a [00:31:30] range of views. So that's a space where we. are able to, yeah, give good quality information and have a conversation, um, but I, I think, yeah, most of the time online it's just not what people were, yeah, therefore it's not possible. The few times we would engage would be things like, for example, we'd post a job ad and someone would, um, ask, like, do you have a child protection policy because everyone's calling us. Yeah, I'm saying that we're inappropriate. Someone else is commenting saying that, you know, the, um, do you have to be [00:32:00] attracted to minors to get this job and horrible things. So, so in that instance, we, yeah, we would respond because that's a chance to, to be like, yes, of course, all our staff have to, you know, we have a child protection policy, they have to be police vetted and so on. Or we'd have, um, These tended to be more private messages. We got quite a few because there was a whole, um, One week, one week, there was a whole thing about how Inside Out thinks John Money is a hero, um, and they, that he should be taught in schools and, and so on. And so we had a few concerned people messaging saying, um, you know, like their [00:32:30] family had sent them this and they didn't think, you know, they wanted to check directly with us, was that true? Or, um, those kinds of conversations. Um, or exactly what do we.. So, if it seems like someone's coming at it with a place of actually wanting to check the information, or like with good intent, then usually we will reply, but usually that's more in a private, um, So, so you mentioned earlier about some of the, the physical manifestations of, of the negativity, and I'm wondering, how do you, how do [00:33:00] you judge when, when, when you see stuff online, and you think, oh, this is actually, veering into either a physical, um, something physical that might happen to the organization? That's a great question, and it's been a big worry, I think, for us. Um, I think in the back of a lot of people in our community's mind is what happened in Christchurch, um, to the mosque, um, shooting, [00:33:30] and that we don't want, obviously, anything like that to happen to anyone again. If that happens again, it feels like our communities would be, would be targeted and it feels like this rise that we're seeing online could very well turn into that and that has been, yeah, terrifying and really horrible to exist with that kind of fear and especially in roles where you are. Responsible for like events or other people's, you know, Oh, I really try not to think about it because it's just, it's [00:34:00] just too, too much, I guess. Um, but it, it does, um, mean for instance, that we haven't published any in person events. We haven't published the locations kind of since all this has been going on, um, that, you know, events, um, like in an advisory role in a kind of rainbow human rights conference at the moment. So we, um, We had to bring that conversation to that organizing group and sort of talk about security and so on for the event, because this would be bringing all the [00:34:30] people together and that kind of thing. So, um, it's unfortunately a very real consideration in people's minds. So far we haven't, apart from sort of the drag story times, um, that some libraries and groups have been involved with, we haven't really seen anything, um, eventuate physically, which is a relief. Um, but it's. Yeah, it feels so scary and you just, you just don't know. Um, so yeah, when we did like receive that. Voicemail [00:35:00] seemed mildly threatening. We can't take that lightly. We have to make sure that we're, um, And so we did do things like, okay, make sure that, you know, if there's only one or other people not on the floor, make sure we're locking the door if you're working in the office alone. And, um, the police have tracked down who that was and Where they are and those kinds of things. So it's, yeah, it's really horrible considerations that we unfortunately have to be, um, having right now, which, yeah, just adds a whole nother layer and can also make people quite hypervigilant to, um, [00:35:30] just in the work. Uh, we should also acknowledge, uh, River has gone to, uh, another appointment. So, um, uh, thank you River, much appreciated. Um. I just want to talk about, uh, possibly the reaction you've had, uh, in schools and in terms of, um, how have the Queer Straight Alliances and schools reacted to all this kind of negativity that's been going on? Hmm, [00:36:00] um, I don't directly work with the, um, With the QSAs in my particular role, so I probably wouldn't be the best place to comment on it. Um, I know that, um, for example, a guidance counsellor recently asked us, like, you know, where the, uh, young people in their QSA were asking about where can they go to see positive representation and positive media on trans people, because everything's so negative right now. Um, yeah, and just kind of wanting that. Um, we've seen [00:36:30] quite more broadly. Next response from schools, I think, where, um, we still, you know, we work with so many schools. We have schools coordinators in every region of the country that do amazing work. In some regions, we, I think, have seen a bit of a pullback at the moment of schools being a bit more hesitant to engage and the pressures that are on them right now from, um, parents, yeah, I guess particularly in those more, like, regional or rural areas. Um, on the flip side, there's.. Probably schools that are, you know, wanting even more to, to combat [00:37:00] and are really on board and wanting our support to, to help them deal with those things. So it's, yeah, it's a bit of a mixed, um, situation. We were really pleased to see with Schools Pride Week that despite the organized kind of attack to stop it going ahead in many schools that we still, um, you know, had our most successful year. Yeah, I think it was.. Oh, I might get it wrong. I want to say 360, but apologies if that's wrong. Um, schools taken part with over 60% of New Zealand secondary schools. So, um, we were really, really pleased with [00:37:30] the results. Um, and we're currently, I think, sort of doing the evaluation and we did ask this year in our, in our evaluation, did schools experience, um, you know, what pushback did they experience? Did that effect change what they did? And we think that for some schools, unfortunately, it did mean that they didn't go up maybe as all out as they wanted for Pride Week or that kind of thing. But, um, For the most part, it didn't seem to stop schools from taking part, um, but there will always be that piece that we don't know, [00:38:00] um, of those schools where that someone did get an email and it didn't become a conversation, but, um, That garnered quite a lot of, um, public attention, uh, in terms of, you know, faith based communities, uh, really, um, pushing for, um, schools pride not to happen. I mean, were you, did, did you ever kind of think that that would ever happen? Was, had that ever crossed your mind before? Yes, I'm trying to remember. [00:38:30] Um, I don't, I think we've definitely seen, um, some pushback to it in the past, but just nothing on this kind of scale. I think we'd, yeah, definitely, but probably more in like individual schools where actually the schools may be saying that they didn't. I don't think the community was ready for it, or putting blocks into it, I'm trying to remember. Um, definitely groups like the New Conservatives, Family First, would have previously probably put things out and been opposed to it. But, um, yeah, it was just a lot, a lot more this year. You know, there were template [00:39:00] letters from various organizations that, for encouraging parents to email their principals or board of trustees to not take part, um, and that kind of thing. Yeah. One of the things I've also seen online is when, uh, resources that, that your other organisations like Gentrip Minorities Aotearoa have produced in terms of like visuals or audio or written stuff that is then kind of exerted and used, um, [00:39:30] against you. How does, like, how does that make you feel? It's frustrating, isn't it, when people take things kind of out of, yeah, out of context or use them against. I think that's where the example about John Money came, where we have a resource with some ideas for curriculum and we talk about, you know, teaching about, um, The history of intersex people and communities and, and actually how, um, John Money kind of introduced corrective surgeries and the fight, the long fight [00:40:00] from intersex communities for bodily autonomy, like our resources, something like that. Then these people, they twist that into inside out should be. Thinks that school should be teaching about John Money, a pedophile. They think he's a hero. All of this, which is completely, you know, actually no, we we really don't think that, um, we are on the same page as you probably. Um, so yeah, it's, it's really, um, Frustrating. I actually read something just this week where, and I think this is something too, that because it's, it's like the build on of different movements, it's not just the [00:40:30] kind of faith based people. It's also these like conspiracy theorist type people. It's also the kind of TERFs and active transphobes. So there's a piece. Um, I think it was from, um, resist gender education. Um, A blog post that I hadn't actually seen at the time, but about Schools Pride Week, um, this week, and it included talking about how the activities on our website, such as doing rainbow baking or coloring, um, are also problematic because they're introducing, um, you know, [00:41:00] sexuality, pride flags, symbology to children and so on. And I was like, and you know, I know a lot of the people behind those groups are actually lesbians. And I was like, how, like, it just blows my mind. Like, I just don't understand. And I think particularly with the city. It's like young people are going to be accessing this information regardless of whether it's taught in schools or not. If they're not getting taught it in schools, then.. They'll be hearing it from their, you know, their peers, from their families, from the [00:41:30] internet, um, potentially, yeah, accessing really harmful material. And I remember young people continue to, yeah, feel alone and isolated and have these terrible mental health outcomes, which is hysterically kind of what has happened. So, I just can't understand the logic behind, um, this idea that we shouldn't be teaching about these things in schools. One of the things that really concerns me is that, um, uh, you know, so to begin with you've got, um, smaller groups of people being kind [00:42:00] of anti, but when it crosses over into, um, larger political parties or movements, so like Destiny Church, New Zealand First, um, and it starts really seeping into kind of mainstream consciousness. I find that really concerning is extremely concerning. And yes, in the last few weeks, we've got New Zealand first coming out with press releases about, you know, making, um, Six [00:42:30] segregated spaces or bathrooms and issue and it kind of for the election and so on. And thankfully the other parties, the major parties have responded to that kind of shut it down quite well. But then it already means it's now conversation. It's something for people to to debate or like that then goes into, you know, people's homes when that's in the media and they start to have conversations about it and so on. So it's it's very harmful. And it's obviously right now. Everyone's very concerned for the election and what that could mean for our communities. [00:43:00] Has all this stuff, has it changed how Inside Out operates? Uh, for instance in creating resources or doing workshops or just even internally? Um, largely no. I don't think it has in many, in many ways. I think, um, we're very.. Proud of the work that we do and we know why we do it and we know that it does, you know, a good job for the most part and that it's really [00:43:30] important and we're not going to let, um, haters, you know, stop to that. So that's what people would, would like. Um, definitely there would be some changes, whether those are just, um, Temporary things. So, for instance, during, um, some particularly bad period of that hate, we did things like just removed our team page off the website. So all of our staff were, you know, so people couldn't actually go and see our names and pictures of our staff during that time just to try and prevent, um, [00:44:00] that kind of hate going wider than just the couple of us that were receiving it in the organization or that in case people were being targeted just because we didn't know what was going to happen. Um, thankfully, that hasn't yet. That hasn't been in We were able to kind of put it back up and, um, so on for our workshops. That's one where we, we have introduced some new things because, um, we've also seen an increase in, um, I guess, what's the right word? Just some more difficult situations coming [00:44:30] up in the workshops that we do, um, for schools, government agencies, workplaces, businesses, um, community organizations, maybe where people are. Um, coming in already with kind of ill intent. Maybe they've sort of been made to be there or, um, or so on. Yeah. So we've had, um, a few incidents that have not been ideal to say. And so if we're putting in place a bit more of an expectation and agreement, um, for organizations [00:45:00] before we go and deliver training of what. Um, yeah, what we expect and how we'll deal with it if there is any, um, thing that might make our facilitators unsafe in that space or that is, is just not appropriate behavior. Um, so that's something we're currently kind of putting in place. Um, we have got like internal, I guess, incident reporting. So we're really encouraging staff. They are experiencing things like that, even if it is just, yeah, uh, Something in a workshop or so on to be, um, letting us know so that our, our ward and [00:45:30] our, our wider, um, organization, we're aware of how often and what those things are so that we can put appropriate things in place as needed to kind of mitigate risk or protect our staff. We've spent, um, a wee bit of time, well actually we've spent a whole interview talking about some of the negativity that's happening over the last year or so, um, and I think actually it would be really nice to end on some positivity. Um, so, I was wondering, um, what have some of the positive responses been [00:46:00] to this horrible time? I guess one thing that really strikes me is, is the counter protests to Posey Parker, um, in March. And particularly, yeah, I was here in Wellington in Civic Square, and it was incredible just to see thousands of people, um, turned up in support of, um, trans people. You know, already, as well, knowing that Posie Parker had left the country and she hadn't even made it to Wellington and people still showing up to show their support. Um, and I think there was only two, kind of, anti [00:46:30] trans people there who didn't really get, um, get the time of day. It was quite funny, so, yeah, that, that was really beautiful and I heard from a lot of people. Um, young people and generally in our communities, the, the power that had, particularly, um, some of the things young people were saying was that they knew like in their online spaces and in their friends that support for them existed, but in kind of that wider society, they, they didn't know how many people in New Zealand supported trans people until they saw whether they were there in person [00:47:00] or they saw in the media, the reports of the thousands of people that. Um, and particularly people noticing that, you know, a lot of those people were there as allies, they weren't part of Rambo communities. And, um, yes, I think that was really, really, really powerful. Um, and yeah, gave people a lot of, um. Yeah, and it was, I think, fast to doing the judicial review against the Minister of Immigration at the time to prevent Posey Parker from coming while that, um, we had this interim [00:47:30] order to try and stop her from being able to catch her flight. Well, it didn't go obviously how we wanted and she came. The, um, the judge's ruling was actually really positive and it, um, yeah, would encourage people to go and have a read of it. And it's really clear that actually, um. You know, he, you know, the minister could have made that decision to stop her that we had, you know, brought the case properly that it did. Yeah, raise this question of, um, yeah, I guess of.[00:48:00] That sort of idea of like free speech versus when you're actually causing harm with that and so on. So, um, yeah, that was, that was quite powerful and a win for us that we hope may be useful in the future. Um, whether that's for us or for other groups to, to have those comments there. Um, and I think. Um, the, I'm just thinking, I guess, yeah, I guess the final, the final thing I'm thinking about is sort of the queer joy, um, [00:48:30] amongst particularly our team here at Inside Out and our wider, wider communities and those moments where we've been able to lean into that queer joy. Um, and so in May we came together for our, um, for an in person staff away and we don't get to do that very often because most of us are in other parts of the country, um. And more recently, we had our Shift Hui in person, and both of those times where we all got to come together, be together in person, in a queer space, and just be together, um, yeah, was really rejuvenating and just, yeah, beautiful to have those [00:49:00] connections of queer joy, um, and, and silliness, um, I will, I will say it at, in, um, In May, um, seven of us went and got broccoli tattoos together. Um, it was, it was wild. There's now an eighth one. We know there'll be more. And, um, I'm currently planning to do, um, hopefully in Pride next year, a broccoli themed Queer Joy art exhibition. And this, this whole thing, it's a, it's a story in itself. Um, but, it's, it's been how we can like, [00:49:30] um, How together, like, we can just create that community over something that, you know, maybe didn't have that meaning before or, like, can be quite silly. Um, and I realize how this will sound if any of the anti people who have been talking about this interview listen to this and they're like, what, broccoli? Broccoli tattoos? They are as weird as we thought they were. But, um, for us it's.. Yeah, it's just been beautiful experiences of connecting with each other, um, and finding the joy in those moments where we can in a time that is actually, [00:50:00] yeah, been so, um, so challenging. And for many of, many of us, it's not, um, we haven't. Quite lived through something quite like, quite like this. It feels different to like for me when I think back to the time of like marriage equality, this feels quite different and a lot scarier, if that makes sense. So, um, yeah, you've got to, got to find those moments of joy and times to kind of shut out everyone else and just be a bit silly.
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