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Well, I, uh, in the 19 sixties, I came to New Zealand, First of all, from from, um Africa via Britain or Britain via Africa. I've been working in both and, um very soon was delighted by New Zealand's spread of radio coverage. Uh, I was used to radio being the voice of God from London in Britain, and that was that as a northerner, one would never get near it. However, living in Timaru as I was, [00:00:30] um, first of all teaching, I could hear the local radio station and have I in contact, you know, with the people who ran it and who were part of our community. I thought this was good fun. I got a job with them, loved it, uh, was a DJ. Then I had the good fortune to be transferred to Wellington just as television arrived. And as we became, we meaning the NZ BS for whom I had worked became the NZ BC, [00:01:00] which meant it was co public corporation rather than a government department which meant it should be much freer to represent a range of views rather than get trapped into government propaganda. And also, most excitingly, was introducing television and, uh So I was rusted on to read news on television along with other news readers who were doing the radio news and and enjoyed [00:01:30] it, Um, even if we hardly knew what we were doing. But we did have this powerful mandate from the country at large to give them a television service, and they were very keen for it. I mean, they they were delighted that the NZ BC had started television. And, uh, perhaps the major snag was they were not seeing enough about New Zealand on their television. They could watch the early [00:02:00] days of Coronation Street and all that and, uh, see people drinking after six, which was itself a help in a major social reform that came about quite soon, which was the change to a 10 o'clock closing. Uh, and also they could watch BBC news. Not much about television about New Zealand other than the weather forecast. So as soon as we had a main line programme [00:02:30] series running in four places, the NZ BC decided to start a current affairs series and we called it compass, and I had the good luck to be recruited as a reporter for it or the reporter, I should say for it because it was a small scale deal and it was produced by, um, Alan Martin, the name of some eminent now and indeed deservedly so. Who is the The There was the head of programmes, [00:03:00] I think at that stage Pardon me or production anyway, had he was a key. We who had worked in in Britain and had worked for some current affairs programmes there for rediffusion and so on and it was fronted hosted is maybe the word by Alan Morris. Another, uh, expat Kiwi, who had been in Britain for a long time, came here to, uh, head the production arm of TV NZ BC and fronted this and the idea was [00:03:30] along the lines. And some of people looking at this may know it of a programme called Panorama, which has been running forever on BBC television and which deals with current political social issues, questions, problems and the like, uh and and off we went, um, as I say, small scale. We had this. We had to learn how to do it. First of all, the entire programme, apart from its studio assembly, all [00:04:00] black and white in those days, uh, had to be made on film, which meant borrowing film crews from the National film unit and trundling off into the countryside to interview or whatever you had to do to make programmes. Um, that that you needed. And then you get a film editor who had a rough idea of what to do, put it all together and put it in front of Alan, who would say, Oh, that's a bit long winded, but we are learning, aren't we? So yeah, let's just trim it out and let's go. And we did [00:04:30] it in because we were a small production unit and, you know, it was quite a complex thing to do. But we did it in a series of about eight, I think. Then we'd take a break and then come back again. And so this was broadcast nationally. That's right. And what kind of broadcast time did you have a good time? It was early evening, seven o'clock, something like that, right after the news. And the way it worked because we didn't have a national link then was that we would make [00:05:00] it in Wellington. We put it to air in Wellington on a Wednesday night and tape it and then send copies of the tapes to Auckland, Dunedin and Christchurch. Who would play it the next night. And when you say tape, so was this on film or was actually no made on film but recorded on vast, bulky 34 inch video tape reels with the great machines that used to record in those days? Yeah, so [00:05:30] what year did Compas start? We were on air just before the decimal currency change, because that was our first dramatic crisis public argument programme. We I mean, we covered very Orthodox topics. Uh, it was mostly to do with government programmes or proposals or social or business things that were going to happen to the country. Like I remember doing a long programme [00:06:00] with Steve White House about what effect Containerization would have when it came another. The decimal currency. One was, um, somehow our producer Gordon Brick got hold of an American Gordon Bick. His name was sorry. Got hold of an American or an Australian expert who forecast that the day after we changed from pound shilling and pence, uh, to dollars and cents under [00:06:30] Rob Muldoon, who was then the associate minister of finance under his control. This that meant said this man, that prices would increase by at least 7% or whatever. Oh, big fuss, Muldoon. How dare you say that? Why wasn't I consulted about this matter beforehand? No. Well, we saw him. No, you're not sorry. You know? And he It was his first practise run at becoming the kind [00:07:00] of political tiger that that he was. So that was a we We were an independent corporation, but we were still very aware that the government controlled the amount of money that we could get from licence fees and had to give us money to. So it was difficult to get discussion on things like the Vietnam War because that would undoubtedly rock the boat as far as Prime Minister was concerned, and perhaps make him make it less likely [00:07:30] that he would look kindly upon our application for overseas funds. So I don't think we better touch that one here, you know, And I had to say, Well, I think we should. And so on we went. And then by 67 we were in a position to begin to do stuff that was really a bit more of our own making. And I like to think that this programme on homosexual law reform in 60 was of our own making. You know, it it was something [00:08:00] that we saw, as as television makers was important. Should be discussed publicly, had not been publicly been published for various kind of odd reasons. Uh, and should and we pushed. And, um, our masters saw the wisdom and the justice in that It always took a bit of persuasion. You want to tell them that, you know, a it would be totally reliable. [00:08:30] And B it was important. And let's see if they were to turn it down. Who knows? Somebody might find out that they had refused to agree to We would not want our part to understand. But, you know, all the all the games that you play. So So So when you say, um, talking to our masters, uh, was there quite a hierarchy of people that you had to convince to get the shows on? Well spotted? Indeed there was. Yeah. Um, [00:09:00] there was a director general and above him on board, of course, who very rarely had anything to do with them. But then there was a director of television, so he would come into the equation if there was an edge of question or might be some conservative response to whatever we've got. Under him was a controller of news and current affairs. Under him was the head of the Wellington station. And under him, I should say around him, really, they were all relatively was the, [00:09:30] um um what did he call it? Controller of news and current affairs. And And he was our immediate boss. And he was the man to be persuaded, and he was usually pretty cautious. And you had to kind of Walsh your way around things and we played tricks. I have to say, Do you mind if I take a side step on that Gordon Beck in particular was that he had practised English standard news journalist and he he [00:10:00] knew about editors. And dear Bruce, who was our our head of, uh, of current affairs had to always check the rough cut, as we called it of a programme and say, Oh, well, I think perhaps that interview was rather too much of that. Or, uh, I don't like that script suggestion you haven't quite got the balance, right? You know, whatever. Cautious. They always were cautious. They were very rarely encouraging you to do braver or newer things. [00:10:30] And so Gordon and the film editor connived between them to for no reason whatsoever put in a shot of, um, or a sinking destroyer, Let's say, from some World War two footage or a bomb test in the in two thirds of the way into the programme. And And that meant that you put in your deliberate mistake and Bruce could see. I do think I don't know how that got in there, but that should Oh, thank God [00:11:00] you spotted it, Bruce. Well, my word, What a relief. And you know, you hope to play these silly games. And and generally I have to say they did give in. But the difficult thing always was to get approval from Bruce and his seniors because he would report to a meeting. And then he thought, quite often, poor bugger. He thought that's a great idea. Yes. Oh, what good scheme. And then he'd go to a meeting he, his senior officers, and then come back [00:11:30] to look, I don't think that is such a good idea after all. So you knew he'd been hammered by, you know, one or two above him, and you had some sympathy for him. But it was Yeah, it was hierarchical and over control. So the programme we're going to focus on today was a compass programme looking at homosexual law reform. And I've got it here as it was broadcast on the 27th of April 1967. Can you tell me how [00:12:00] so? If that's the broadcast date, how long did it take to produce? Uh, not necessarily that programme, but a programme. How? How? How? How many weeks or months? Or two weeks? I guess roughly, Uh and sometimes you were shooting because there was an occasion, but it might take you longer, but that would be a one off thing that you chart and you put it on the shelf and wait until you needed it. But average two week turnover, I suppose, from approval to getting it to air. And why? [00:12:30] Why at that point were you looking at a programme on homosexual law reform? It was bubbling the topic. Uh, there was some discussion. The a lot of our stuff was secondary to Britain. So I think it was the wolf and was starting to report in Britain and discuss and not make any great progress, but at least and so naturally you knew about it. And you think Oh, yeah. And then you began [00:13:00] to sniff around and find out a what our legal position was, which was usually much the same as the Brits without, and And if there were any rumblings or suggestions and then you found out, you know, that there were a number of people trying to push for law reform here about homosexuality, and, uh, it was interesting you went and talked to them. And then you discovered that, um van young, brave man, [00:13:30] uh, out of New Plymouth. I always love to see that, you know, rural New Zealand doing brave things was going to talk, talking about bringing up a, um, a private members bill or something. You know, that good? That that provides the kind of public impetus that you is useful when you're trying to persuade the bosses to let you do it. And and that's what got us moving. I will confess to a personal no, I'll I'll tell you about that at the end [00:14:00] when? Yeah, I was keen myself to do some work on this topic. But I'll tell you when we finish the programme, may I? So you don't want it on the record? No, no, I don't mind. No, I just think it might make a little more sense once we've talked about the actual programme itself. Sorry, I'm doing myself editing here. Go. Can you recall if there were many, Um, were you aware of many gay [00:14:30] people within BC NZ? Yes. Yeah, not many. But you knew because it was more readily talked of, you know, we were a more open working community and then the standard one, and yeah, so there were There were a number of, I mean a number of actors and things like that. And in fact, that's how we found our people to be on our programme through acting the Unity Theatre Group. [00:15:00] Uh, the way that said the way that that happened, we were thinking about doing a programme and had mentioned it to one of the people whom you thought would be interested because they were gay or because they were a good idea, you know, It's about time we did something. Goodness sake, both of them. So you knew and Julia Mason as she was then, and Julia Stewart now is she was the only researcher for the programme. [00:15:30] She had good friends who were, uh, in actors. And what did they call it? Unity Theatre Group. And at a rehearsal of something like that, she said, Oh, by the way, we're looking at the possibility of one and two or three people put their hands up and said, Oh, I know a few gay people and quite a lot. Or maybe I'm gay myself. I really don't know that background, but she made some connections and they said, If you decide to go ahead, we'll help you which was the first important step, [00:16:00] and then then we just we put on that basis. I think we put the proposal up, and we got approval to go ahead with it. Provided, of course, I entirely nothing illegal as you don't remember. Yeah, yeah, we know, yes. Guarantee you, you know, and you'll have a chance to look at it and all that stuff. So, uh, then we put it together. Julia assembled a list of names with the great help, and I must offer them a huge gratitude. And thanks to Barry Neils, [00:16:30] I don't know if that name rings. He was something to do with the group. What was it called? It wasn't Wolf and and it was the the the the the The Dorian Group Do Society. That's right, which was an assembly. I think of gay people and their supporters. We can use gay now, which we didn't in those days, and Barry, it was who said yes. Well, I'll, I'll help you to get in touch with some people that I think might be prepared, and [00:17:00] you have to understand there's quite a risk for them. So we were mightily touched that they had enough trust in Julia and in us to actually come along to a meeting. I seem to remember at Barry's house, where we kind of canvassed the idea and how many people might be able to take part and what they thought we should cover and do, and so on. And that was very heart warming [00:17:30] and good value. And so we went ahead, and now you used the word Well, I also use the word um gay. But I'm wondering back in the sixties what words were being used to talk about homosexuality to essentially in common, er, homos or queers. Bloody queer. He is, you know, and and it is interesting because one of the things I remember [00:18:00] looking back at this is we had just We started doing a few interviews, Um, because you could only do them gradually. I mean, you couldn't call a whole lot of people to get it would draw attention and spread. Anyway, it was known that we were doing this programme and, uh, was it the cameraman wouldn't have been because he wasn't a drinker. But I went with somebody into the bar top bar of the royal oak and [00:18:30] we cleared the bar. In other words, it was a place where gays drank and they wondered whether we are next to follow us might be a camera. And so I remember going to where you did in those days a a beer mate. Thanks. And you and you look and they've all gone. And then we really it was good to happen because it made me realise Oh, my word. We are on something here, which is carries a dangerous overtone [00:19:00] for a lot of the people. And it made me respect all the more those who were prepared to take that risk, what we had Should I ramble on? Well, before we continue on, um, just following on from that, I wonder, are you able to just have a bit of a description of what the climate towards homosexuality was like in the sixties? Um, I'm thinking that we had the Charles over heart killing [00:19:30] in the in the early sixties. We had the Parker Hume murder. Um What? How How was homosexuality seen by the kind of general population Do you think? Dismissive? I mean, uh, um I mean, basically prejudicial completely. Almost. It's unfair of me to say it completely because a number of, um, more liberal people were for for for simple matters of justice and and the like were very keen to see change. [00:20:00] Um, but there are a lot of other things that they needed changing as well. And there were, you know, restrictions on women and everybody was restricted in some way or other. So this was seen as kind of at the extreme end and affecting a kind of small minority of people really who were also obviously tolerating it. You know, there were no gay marches or homosexuals coming out and saying there were people who were frightened. [00:20:30] They were cowed they which was part of the reason. The more reason why something should be done about it. Because people were living in fear and shame and all the rest of it. And it was just time very much for a change. And also these organisations were were beginning to be set up here and I I read in quite recently which I wasn't aware of. Actually, the petition had been sent to the New [00:21:00] Zealand Parliament by 100 and signed by 75 notable citizens and all that, um and but it didn't get anywhere. So there was no response out of Parliament itself, left or right. Remember in those days, we just had left and right and they were pretty restricted in the view of their own view of their own responsibilities. You know, to be a brave person as Van Young was brave, obviously who? And I, I thought [00:21:30] to answer your question as directly as I can the or Inferential. Anyway, I read that that group who put their petition up to Parliament, then formed a committee that was going to work towards a change in homosexual law. And they went to the then governor General Lord Cobb, and asked him if he would be patron of this organisation. And he responded quite quickly [00:22:00] and obviously from his own hand, as it were saying, No, I will not because it's very obvious that homosexuality is a disease which is suffered by people and affects them mentally in the same way as, let's say, smallpox, uh affects people physically. And the problem is, of course, that we don't know how contagious this disease of homosexuality is. So there's no point in even trying to change the law. And I thought, My God, [00:22:30] that's probably a fairly standard official. I don't know. You can't even call it that, you know, prejudiced view of it. Given an understanding of the time. I suppose we shouldn't be all that surprised. So yes. Yeah, it was a matter of shame. If you were gay, you were given treatment often. I think if you were you reported it and explain how it was concerning [00:23:00] you. Then you'd be sent off to And unless you found a good one like a Fraser McDonald or people like that who were very responsible and understanding people, I imagine the treatment would be bloody awful. And Fraser McDonald was a He was a man I greatly admired. He and some of the better people in those days in the public service or were were in this He was the head of Dam one of the A, I think an Auckland [00:23:30] mental institution, you know, uh, and and was a liberal and used to speak out bravely. Uh, and that's all. I'm sorry. I should know more about it, and more should have been done to honour him. But there was others who were really quite strong and good on on the question. Can I take you back to that meeting you had at Barry Neil's house And what were the kind of issues that the, um [00:24:00] I guess Gay community, But also other people in the room? What? What did they want to see in that programme? Well, I have to say the first thing about it was because we didn't know any each other. All we had was Barry's good will as it were as as Rina, uh, and Julia's openness and knowledge and our rough intention. You know, we'd like to do something [00:24:30] on the topic and first thing, I'd say it's a good idea because it could be that they said, Oh my God, look, you know who knows what will happen after this? We all of us are our closet. We are hidden. Some of us are in marriages. We all of us have jobs that the consequences of opening it up and us being revealed. Not only are we open police prosecution, I don't [00:25:00] know how many prosecutions there'd been, but but, you know, it was in once you declared on television that you were gay or whatever and presumably had committed what regarded as as an illegal acts. Then they could swoop on you. And and, you know, it was a real fear. And the last thing we wanted was to try and go, either in ways which would harm them or be going half baked. So you go and do. And unfortunately, we can't tell [00:25:30] you much about this. But no good doesn't work in television, you know, it's about people coming to review for the viewer something that he if he didn't know about beforehand. And and so that took one meeting. I think to get that right. Then we went in and went in more detail, and we began to quiz them about Well, what? What does it mean in your life that you Well, you know, I have a very good understanding with my wife or my partner and I have been together for [00:26:00] 15 years, but we always have to go out by different, and we can't and and just explaining those kind of social limitations on contact, exposure, freedom to move, to go together, to drink together, to travel. And it was very I, I suspect, by the way, that it had worsened since the troops came back. I haven't read much about gay experience [00:26:30] in the military, but I think that the soldiers were much more open, Um, and indeed may well have been more homosexual themselves. And so and then it had tightened down. You know, the were reverted to the frumpy conservative society that New Zealand was really accused of being in so many ways in the sixties. Anyway, we had two or three meetings like this and then we had to work with them in details. [00:27:00] OK, if we were to do it, what are your requirements? And it was about not being identified on in by by sound or vision. Um, absolutely no communication of names, contacts, people involved with the police and complete confidentiality in the names and [00:27:30] places that we would film within our own group, which meant camera crew, Julia and myself. And we happy with that Absolutely happy and delighted, you know, And we please let us know through Barry, if you're willing to take part and we did and they did, and we then went Julia and I just talking, we didn't send any memos around or [00:28:00] to the head cameraman, Um, Ken White and Ken being a sympathetic sort of I said, Yeah, well, I will do this job. I won't have a junior do it, and it will not go on the roster or whatever. You know, it just encompass filming. And we got likewise senior sound recordist Ron Cook, and so he none of his you know, there was no question of it being discussed among the juniors or all the sound recorders or what have [00:28:30] you It was just a and off we went and we hired. I think two or three vans that were unlabeled didn't have NZ BC all over them. What have you We found mostly Bruce's house, Barry's house, but not always. Sometimes we went to other places and we went, uh, after dark and we didn't go at the same time. You know, we kind of we do [00:29:00] somewhere on a Monday night and somewhere else on a Wednesday night and just in case because people I don't know who knew whether the police or agents of who look for suspicious things might be in touch with what we were doing. But it sounds like you, you you as a team that had real concerns. This wasn't just, um it wasn't just [00:29:30] kind of in someone's mind. I mean, you obviously had real concerns that people would be found out, but but and also, in a way, you know, technically, we were breaking the law because we were asking people to discuss illegal acts or a life which had illegal elements in it. And, um, and in some ways, you know, had it just been had a being a political rather than a social Hu Hu main topic. You [00:30:00] could have been taken off air or whatever or have ugly scenes. And the last thing we wanted was to What's the word? Cover it in a in a kind of negatively explosive way. Bloody gay. You know, the kind of antagonism that was raised sometimes when reports were, as they were commonly published, about people being molested [00:30:30] and people in public laboratories trying to solicit and now, you know, which brought up public revulsion, not what we wanted at all. Quite the reverse. And it would have been quite in contrast for from something like the New Zealand truth. The truth. You're quite right. I mean, for them, this is fodder. This is what they did. And it's one of the reasons why we wanted to do our programme because we felt it was most unfair, obviously, to live on prejudice. [00:31:00] Good God, which exactly, You know, we're not about, you know, And and then we went, and we just, um Yeah, I mean, all all Ken did was shoot from the side. So it was all profile and fully lit on this side. So you got a moving profile moving, but you couldn't make out, and Ron tweaked some sort of little burble, [00:31:30] and it still was perfectly listenable. And but it we hoped that's all we could do. I hope it was. And to do them God bless them to do them justice. Nobody asked to see it before, and we did, in fact, show it to to a number of them before we put it to air. Just so they knew what they would have to face up to to. But nobody said, Oh, dear, no, no, I don't like it. Or don't do it or I've got cold feet or, um whatever, whatever. [00:32:00] And And we talked a wee bit quite a lot, obviously, about what it meant to be homosexual, But we also trying to fit that into their social. So, you know, you're an engineer. Wow, That must be a Well, yes, So But I've got a lot of mates, you know, people are quite easily relaxed. If no relaxed is the wrong word, none of them were were relaxed. They all knew that they were putting. Speaking of something [00:32:30] which, when I thought about it, they had maybe never said to anybody you know and here. Were we a public eye and And I could understand that you will be somewhat hesitant when you did this and wondering whether you were risking. You don't know your kids, your friends, your job, your life, even having to go away and live somewhere else if this was revealed and that was a genuine apprehension. [00:33:00] And gosh, I so admired them for putting that risk to one side and going ahead with it. And not one ducked or dived or or lied as far as I can remember, you know, and nobody was there to be posing. Or so Yeah. What am I What were they apprehensive about? Yeah. 00, I'm sorry. The other thing we did, we guaranteed [00:33:30] them those. And we used false names. That I mean I mean, it was kind of Fred rather than Harry or whatever. Was there anything in those interviews that surprised you? Hm? I think most of all was a pleasant surprise, which was a surprise that the self confidence [00:34:00] within them, um, you know, the kind of picture that that people had read about to the extent they read about it was people who were shamed and seeking ways out and looking for treatment, which might or is there a way or why have I been, you know, made to to live this way and regret and anguish where there wasn't any [00:34:30] anguish? You know, nobody was bemoaning what they'd had to do. They were just talking about the reality of living like so they were over any kind of, uh, has been through an awful lot themselves working out what they were doing and why. And that strength came through. And that was wonderful. That so And it surprised me. I thought a few might have sort of cowed away or regretted, [00:35:00] or and there was never any question of that, which was lovely. I haven't seen, uh, the programme. Are you able to describe, um, how it finally came together? What did it look like, what was in it? But I just, um I. I got to refresh myself with that because I couldn't remember. I can remember shooting a little sequence which we made up, which we used to put voice over on. And it was [00:35:30] about, um, a couple of men making contact with each other, uh, via subterfuge in a public hotel or some such. You know, uh, and we had a couple of actors, and, uh, they made contact with each other and then moved off together. And over this, we we needed something where we could say what we knew, which was the state of the law here. The estimated number of people [00:36:00] who were practising homosexuals and likely to be by international comparisons. And what else did we put up there? Something or other. Oh, and we would also have talked about young and and about the, um the societies and the approaches that will be to show that we weren't just doing something else. You know, there was a public beginning of a of a an interest in change, and that that worked quite well. [00:36:30] We were a bit scared of guying it, but they seem to find it, OK? And Barry said it was all right. And that was when you say it, What does that mean? That you know, you, you over it or you Yeah. I mean, you're misrepresented by overacting it or, you know, you put up some peculiar gay idea. If you like the kind of gay pride [00:37:00] stuff that we do now, which has people kind of flaunting and jumping. We weren't any of that. We were quite the reverse. You know, these were a couple of men who bumped into each other in a in a pub having a beer, Uh, which was much more the way of things in the sixties. And so there was nothing flamboyant about it or efforts to present or you know what I mean, That sort of stuff, that that makes sense. Absolutely. So in the finish programme, how [00:37:30] many, uh, interviewees. How many participants did you have? But I would think 10 million something of that order. But when you see this programme, you got it wrong. I'm sorry. I know I don't think it'll be more than 10. It's quite remarkable that you were able to get back. It was, and we had a number of meetings where we were there and others would come along. And I think they took strength from each other so that we'd say, Well, we're going [00:38:00] to shoot in here now. So and so if you just keep quiet and they would see what and presumably each felt strengthened by the presence of the other because we said if you if you'd rather we just did it all on our own without anybody else. But nobody ever complained about that. So the kind of brotherhood was, if anything strengthened and I think it was useful in the filming, I'm really interested in in the the reaction to the programme when it was broadcast, particularly [00:38:30] now that you're saying that, uh, the participants came across as quite comfortable and and strengthened in their their ideas when the kind of prevailing mood at the time was This is something you should be ashamed of. What was the audience reaction like? Well, I don't know that I ever heard that picked up on, but I think it's a my own kind of editorial. Judgement on [00:39:00] it is that was a huge strength because this was not something you could dismiss as a standard ordinary, pure. You know, you can't say Oh, but you know, you, their intensity and their serious commitment to what they were telling you made it obviously true and reliable and not to be ignored or dismissed. So I that's that's my view [00:39:30] of it now. I never heard anybody say that because we did get some pretty good response I have I have to say generally, you know, those days people wrote in that was what you did programme of so and so. And we got a fair number of that. And I was You always looked out for the press reviews. So I found one which I, I can I read it out to you. I only read good ones. So this [00:40:00] comes from Oh, this was the listener review, right? The compass programme on the homosexual laws can take its rightful place among the best documentaries from anywhere. Well, that makes you smile. And here's the tablet which was the Roman Catholic? Probably still is, I don't know, Roman Catholic magazine, a difficult subject which compass [00:40:30] dealt with carefully and with restraint. If more positive action follows, this programme will have more than justified itself, which is quite quite nice because they're saying we are the tablet we are the conservative core of And if you decide to do something in parliament, you know we're with you so that those were two kind of pieces of paper that we cut out and were proud of. [00:41:00] But any number of mates said, Wow, yeah, you know, thank you. Both hadn't realised, Um and that was that was very warming. And And we didn't receive any reports of adverse reaction from the participants now, whether that was just their general courtesy and I don't know, but nobody said, Oh, my God. You know, I was scared when when I went to work the next day or whatever, [00:41:30] they might have been slightly apprehensive because who knows which always increases the value of the programme if there's a risk in it. And there was a lot, a lot of risk in this, I think. Mm. And we should have actually pointed out at the start that it's my understanding this is like one of the first, if not the first programmes on homosexuality in New Zealand on in broadcast media. Yeah, I think so. [00:42:00] It may have been the odd radio, but January in those days radio was essays by the opinionated, you know, all the well informed to do them justice. Um, so I imagine somebody may have mentioned it along the way, but I, I had not seen or heard anything which took you in any depth into the life of a homosexual or the difficulties and the benefits, Um, [00:42:30] such as they were. But, I mean, it was a fulfilled life there, which is worth acknowledging anyway. So, uh, no, I think we were, and I I kind of claimed later on. Of course, it took a long time after that. We had to get another couple before we got Fran Wild and we got all I have a whole heap of stuff going on, but eventually I remember going to the civil Union celebration of a couple of gay [00:43:00] friends and going, Hey, we pulled it off, and that would have been 20 years later. Yeah, and that was just just lovely. Yeah. So after producing the programme, had your views on homosexuality changed? Yeah. Yep, I think so. I I It was more widespread than I had appreciated. Um, just because I didn't move in those C it was greatly and also, [00:43:30] um, in in Well, as you know, in in the radio and television and stuff like that. People have all kinds of lives, and that's fine. It's good. Whatever you whatever you like. So it hadn't been a matter apart from it. And the injustice, the fundamental injustice of applying stupid ancient laws and and know that that, you know, that angered me. So I did know and I hadn't realised that [00:44:00] is how. And I hadn't realised the strength that people had to show to live that life in whatever such a huge way. Um and that that was good. Good for me to find that out. Do you think that programme influenced subsequent, uh, homosexual law reform activities or attitudes? I do. Yeah. I mean, because telly [00:44:30] I, I always maintain television is not a good medium for changing things, But it's a good medium for saying, Look at this. I wonder if we should be doing something about it. And that in large part springs from this kind of programming. You know, I, I haven't much time for television campaigns that say you should all learn. Or here is such a shocking, horrific thing that you must immediately know that that's [00:45:00] an abuse of it, especially public television in which we were and how. And I wish we still were more. But that's by the way, um and and yes, I mean, you can almost see there's a progression, isn't there that the small group of people realise what's happening. And they try and persuade the government the government doesn't want to know because it's ill informed and it's got other things to do. You waste your time. A few more people continue to research. Things come in from overseas, and then another [00:45:30] bid is made. And And in this case, of course, it took a lot longer than it should have done, of course, but it did get there. But if we hadn't kicked the door open as it were, it would take longer. Or it wouldn't have happened because you wouldn't know. Um, you know, if there were opponents to change to people who thought we shouldn't do anything about the bloody queers and they never said so maybe we'd scare the bugger off, [00:46:00] which would please me. You know, they could realise that they're dealing with a serious matter here. And it wasn't something you just went. Ah, forget about it. Uh, so, yeah, I would have been probably more proud than I ought to be of that. But can I tell you now? That thing I was gonna say when I was at university, um, in Britain, a good mate of mine was Alan Alan Wilford and we all knocked around together. And we played [00:46:30] sports together one thing or another. And I happened to end up for no reason that I can really think of. Except that the local vicar signed me into in a theological college. They were Most of my Conor were going on to be ordained. There were about a dozen of us who were assault who weren't. And then, uh So I went to Alan and we both went through and took our degrees and went away. And then a year or two later, [00:47:00] I went to see Alan in Oxford at his next college. The ordination. How you doing? Great. He said Great. So when are you gonna get ordained? He said I'm not. He said. Well, one of the things I've discovered here is I'm pretty certain I'm homosexual, and the risk is too great. I. I can't. Um yeah. I can't risk what the church might make of or what [00:47:30] disappointment I might face if I so I'm gonna go. Oh, yeah. Silly old bugger. I said, whoa! Jeez. Come on, let's go and have a beer. We were in a beer and we talked about other things and I was a huge sense of failure that I was never able to comprehend what Alan had realised and was then facing and I kind of dismissed it and I thought I failed him as a friend and I felt in some [00:48:00] small way that when we made that programme that the debt had been at least acknowledged.
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