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Killed everybody, as Jim said And thank you, Jim, for the invitation and thank you to Saint Andrews for for hosting this event. Um, my name is Richard Tankersley. I've been a commissioner at the New Zealand Human Rights Commission since September 2008, which is rather a long time given that I was appointed on a five year warrant and I'm still sitting there pending, um, replacement decisions made by the minister. So I'm very happy to still be here and still be in a position to have these conversations with communities, Among [00:00:30] other things. Um, I'm based in Christchurch. My appointment is at 0.3 So I do other things with my life. Um, I'm a celebrant. I do weddings and funerals. I was a lay minister in the Anglican church many years ago. I don't hold that office anymore, but I still carry on some of the some of the work. Um, that, uh, entailed in that, particularly in taking funerals. Um, and while I never took weddings while I was a lay minister, I certainly do now, [00:01:00] um, and some of my works in the rainbow community and some of it's not some of my works in the Maori community, and some of it's not I'm descent and pretty active in, um, Maori things down in the south. Um, and, uh, also, I'm a consultant, a cultural consultant, and offer training and organisational development work. Um, particularly aimed at the health sector, but I'm not limited to that. [00:01:30] So, um, if we flick on, um, to the next slide, there it is. Richard Tankersley, Human Rights Commission and former criminal. Um, And I'm saying that because, of course, before 1986 if I chose to have sex, uh, according to my orientation, then I was committing an act. Uh, that was against the Crimes Act at the time, and I was being a criminal. I was never caught and convicted as a criminal. Um, but I certainly carried out what would have been then deemed criminal behaviour. [00:02:00] And I say these things in the light of the Minister's Minister of Justice uh, Amy Adams decision to engage, uh, in in a a consideration of a a process to quash historic convictions. Um, that were made under that legislation that was repealed in 19. Uh, was counteracted in 1986. Um, with certain limits on and and the the discussion will be not tonight's discussion. But the minister's discussion and the legislation [00:02:30] that empowers it will will, um, be working out with the limits and boundaries around those quashing will be. So where are we gonna go? Um, this is essentially what I'd like to cover. Where do our human rights come from? Some milestones of human rights, uh, relating to sexual orientation, gender identity and intersex. Now that acronym. It's a jargon thing. What did soggy mean? So they say sexual orientation, [00:03:00] gender identity, and intersect. So this is a generic term that covers, um, for us particularly, uh, the human rights of people with, um, minority sexual orientation and gender identity and gender expression. So that's where that acronym comes from. SOGI I So, um uh, a little bit about the Human Rights Commission. And if you want to access our complaints service, we'll let you know how to do that. Um, we [00:03:30] want to talk about making changes to the world to better realise human rights. And then I've got some thoughts about, um how we go about that. So where do our human rights come from? It's all very well to talk about human rights, but where do they come from and how do we define them? So in the in the throes of the end of the the middle and the end of the Second World War is the United Nations Charter was [00:04:00] being drafted. They also drafted, uh, a a declaration, a universal declaration of human rights, And that was put before the General Assembly on the 10th of December in 1948. And it was passed by the General Assembly. And it's, uh, got numerous articles, and you can find it on the UN website. You can find it in lots of places, and it essentially is an aspirational document [00:04:30] that outlines what are the rights of human people in the light and and and the is at the start. It talks about, um, you know, in generic general terms, the experiences that we've just had, uh, in the earlier part of the 20th century in terms of going to war against each other and committing atrocities. But the queer is, uh, that I, um, want to reflect on, uh in this is the recognition of the inherent dignity [00:05:00] and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world. That is one of the assumptions that underpins the declaration of human rights is actually that the equity and human rights are the foundations of freedom, justice and peace in the world. So the declaration [00:05:30] goes on to articulate a whole range of rights. And again, I I'm not going to have time in a one hour session to go through what those are in 1967. So now another generation on from that the dialogue had continued and before the General Assembly. Then they gave voice to two covenants, and they call these the two major covenants of human rights. One covers civil and political [00:06:00] rights and the IC CPR, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the other covers economic, cultural and social rights. The International Covenant on Economic, Culture and Social Rights put before the General Assembly on the 16th of December in 1966 from those two covenants, then the human rights of a whole range of groups of people, [00:06:30] Um, people whose rights have been, were seen as vulnerable and needed more articulate expression have been, um, covered off and, uh, described in a range of other human rights instruments that are called treaties. So you've got a declaration, an aspirational document. Covenants, which lots of countries signed that said, we choose to do these things because we believe in the declaration [00:07:00] and then as subsets of those covenants that these treaties are like, how do we then meet the obligations that we signed up in the covenant? So the UN charters, treaties and declarations, Um, and very briefly, the, uh, convention to eliminate all forms of racial discrimination in, uh, 1965 the CONVEN Convention to eliminate all forms of discrimination against women in 1979. [00:07:30] And, um, also in 1979 the UN Convention on the Rights of the child 1979. Those were the the first of Well, they're not that not the only things that the UN dealt with in those times, but they are three big conventions or treaties that was that were put before the General Assembly. In those times we move on to the next slide, we've got some more, um, two more documents, two more treaties and a declaration. [00:08:00] The convention against Torture, Um, which is actually the Convention Against Torture and other cruel inhumane, which I've spelled incorrectly on the slide. But never mind or degrading treatment or punishment. Inhuman. But it's inhumane, I think so. The convention against torture. So that covers the rights of people in detention. Those sort of things. Uh, and then much more recently in 2006, the convention to, uh, 2007. But, um, [00:08:30] yeah, 67. The Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. Also in 2007, um, was the United Nations declaration again, not a treaty and aspirational document on the rights of indigenous peoples. But that has shaped, uh, the international dialogue on what happens for, um, indigenous peoples. For the last 10 years, New Zealand was reasonably slow to, um, endorse that [00:09:00] New Zealand, Australia, US and Canada. Um, actually, you know, pop pop populations with large numbers of indigenous peoples were the ones that were reasonably tardy. Everybody has now signed up to it, including us, Um, or at least removed the reservations from that. What we do if we move on to the next slide. What happens when a country. So you you put this, uh, treaty before the United Nations and then an individual country either signs it or they don't. And so when New [00:09:30] Zealand signs a a treaty at the United Nations, then we agree to do a number of things. But the two major things that we agree to is that we agree to make happen the progressive realisation of the rights that are referred to in that treaty in our own domestic situation. OK, so we don't say we magically click our heels together and those rights are automatically in place because we have to put them through the [00:10:00] mechanisms of our own, um, our own law, our leg, our legislative process. We need to bring them into our codes. What we undertake is that we undertake to progressively realise those rights in our domestic situation, and we agree to know to to to no backsliding, no retrogressive moves, no falling back. Once you've taken a progressive realisation, step in the realisation of human rights, then the UN expects [00:10:30] that we don't go back. OK, so you have a change of government If you ratified some of these human rights, the the the convention would say No, do not go back on those things. You've made a positive step to acknowledge. To honour a treaty that you've signed. You can't go back. So when you've signed a UN instrument, then there's an accountability process. And, um, all of the instruments have got accountability processes, [00:11:00] and they've all got committees that then examine a country on its compliance with that particular treaty. So there's, um, the convention to, uh, eliminate racial discrimination. And of course, then there's the Committee on Ending Racial Discrimination. So, uh, likewise with, um, the, um, with the women's convention, like this committee on the on the status of women, there's all those things. And again, the, um, most recent [00:11:30] convention big convention was that on the rights of people with disabilities. And again, it's got its own committee. They all have. The two governments have also got committees. What they put in place, um, more, more recently is a a five year. It's now a five year cycle process for each country called the Universal Periodic Review. And that's where the country's whole entire human rights record is examined by the United Nations. And I think what we'll find is that there will be less and less reporting against [00:12:00] individual treaties and more and more reporting in the universal periodic review simply because the mechanisms of the UN have gotten very, very cluttered. Um, with the various treaties and the various reporting and it becomes, I suspect it's becoming unwieldy and unmanageable. And so, um, we, uh, we did U PR two years ago. So we've got another one coming up. Uh, it it seems to come around reasonably quickly. [00:12:30] So what happens? Let's take the U PR the universal periodic review as an example. So what is required then, is that we go to the Human Rights Council at Geneva. Um, and we appear before, um, a an examining committee, which is made up of delegates from a number of different states. Uh, that are, um, party to that to that treaty to that process. And those rotate around, uh, and so you go [00:13:00] to the Human Rights Council and you, um, make a presentation. So there's three fold. There's a threefold, um, effort to the presentation, the government, the Minister of Justice, and what causes a report to be made to that, uh, body, the Human Rights Commission as a national human rights institution, which is what we are, and we are accredited to the United Nations. As a national human rights institution, we make our own report independent [00:13:30] of the government and then civil society groups involved in that area of human rights or those areas of human rights, then have an opportunity to submit third party reports to that process. So you get a much It's not just from one direction. It's not just the government saying Oh yes, we're doing this. We're ticking all the boxes. We're doing very well, thank you very much. They might say that. But unless the NGO sector, the sectors that are involved organisations actually agree with that and [00:14:00] if the independent human rights body agrees with that, then that's fine. There are probably going to be divergent views. And so the the committee then sits and understands the breadth of views and then will come up with recommendations, feedback to the country on how to improve its human rights, its domestic human rights situation from the viewpoint of that UN body. So that's what happens. So here, So that's what I mean by international. [00:14:30] So, uh, on the slide sorry. I've got reporting to an examination by UN treaty bodies, um international mo monitoring processes, Um, the role of states, which is the role of the other states involved in that treaty, or in the the Universal Review. And they examine the role of, um, our own government to present, um, a report, our national human rights institution. In this case, we're called the Human Rights Commission, presenting our own report and then civil society [00:15:00] presenting the third rate of reports and I've got a hand up. So I've got a question with the U PR the last one that was held. I was somewhat involved, at least on the periphery of it. And the interesting thing was that the government called for confrontation. If you could call it that, um, with the civil society, which was pretty, um, controlled. Yes, it didn't really get a lot of [00:15:30] scope, but some of the civil society groups did put things in which the government completely ignored the final report. When it came back from, um, the UN, the, um, two affairs held, uh, sort of a This is what happened. And this is the result and stuff like that and What we discovered is that from the time after, uh, consultation [00:16:00] is called for, there is no scope for civil society to have any further input into what the government has decided to do. They say, Oh, we've been here, We've talked to them, We've taken the stuff on board and this is what our plan of attack is. But there's no civil society input into that. I think that that process is more fluid now than I think it's growing. I think it is as I understand it, It's changing now for all that. You're speaking [00:16:30] to somebody who hasn't gone to the UN and reported to a treaty body. I've been I've been to the Asia Pacific Forum of National Human Rights Institutions. But that was, uh, about our involvement in supporting other in a new national human rights institutions and our engagement there rather than specifically to a treaty. I'm one of the few commissioners that doesn't hasn't gone to do that. Um, certainly what we did have in the last U PR from a sexual orientation and gender identity and intersex point of view, was a coalition of [00:17:00] NGO S who did put a report into the, um, process. And, um, what we got out of it, um, was a bit interesting because it it the the report highlighted some very strongly some areas of human rights that needed work because of the quirks of the UN system. The the state parties that were examining us were quite quite a few of them were reasonably queasy about sexual orientation [00:17:30] and gender identity issues. And so we didn't get the recommendations back that we that those that our work deserved, um, or the work of the coalition deserved. And in fact, the commission didn't argue with the coalition either. Um, what we find that what we did get was a, um a statement from the minister saying Yes. I acknowledge that these areas need work and, yes, I will continue to work on these things [00:18:00] in conjunction with affected communities. Now, that was Minister Collins, and we're still holding the government to the minister's statement that we will, you know, we've taken that in good faith, and we'll continue to move forward on that basis. What I think you will find is that civil society will get more and more organised around the U PR as, um the cycle becomes apparent and they won't wait to be invited by the government to have input [00:18:30] into those things. I think you'll find that it will become a lot more proactive. That's as I read it. Now, again, I'm not the article. It's good news because the power of the first thing we other nation states could comment on your and that pressure from other states was quite important. I would have a much better chance. [00:19:00] I would. I would agree with you. And I think we certainly will have within sexual orientation, gender identity into sex. I think we will have a much stronger We'll be ready for it a lot, a lot earlier this time than than we might have been in the past in all the things you listed, where there was a human rights, you know, um, focus, like women and Children. You didn't actually [00:19:30] mention one around, because how do you actually get a review when it's not actually an agreed? So we don't have a specific treaty on sexual orientation and gender identity, and it's highly unlikely, given the makeup of the UN, that we're going to get one and we can't even get agreement on these things inside the Anglican Church, for example, with the plethora of people from of bishops from, um developing nations where you know [00:20:00] their theology gets in the way of their ability to include people. Now that be it. Now I say, This is somebody that's been involved in the Anglican Church, even though I was raised as a Catholic so you know. But II, I had a conversation earlier on, So I've got Presbyterians on the side of the family as well. So we're pretty. We're pretty Maori faith in my in my family. But certainly I don't think we're likely to be able to get AAA the promulgation of a treaty at the UN on sexual orientation. Gender identity. We have to go back to the declaration and we have to go to those two covenants [00:20:30] and those covenants. And the Declaration and those covenants set is the premise is that every person is born free and equal in dignity and rights. Full stop and the two covenants civil and political rights and, um, economic, cultural and social rights are promoted on that basis. And so what the treaties do is that they illuminate the covenants more. But just because we haven't managed [00:21:00] to get a treaty in place for a particular group of people doesn't mean to say that those human rights aren't seen as important in the UN framework by by the UN by people in the UN. It's about the nature of the, um the emphasis and the politics of state parties that are involved in any particular time. Do you think you will get any progress? Because as I understand it, even Human Rights Council had, um, States like Saudi Arabia on it, for God's sake. I mean, [00:21:30] one hope is that we we got those sorts of countries, and they also like to target the democratic countries and keep away from the absolute despotic Look, I, I think that the UN is a very, very large and very, very cumbersome beast, and I can't imagine it's going to get lots better in terms of its mechanisms. Um, I. I think it is what it is, and we work with what we can work with. But, uh, look, I agree with you, but, [00:22:00] uh uh, the other thing about countries that have a national human rights institution that doesn't mean to say that they're saying that their human rights record is perfect. We've got one. Australia's got one. Samoa has now got one. And that's the first one. That's eventuated in the Pacific since Fiji got deregistered after the coup. Um, but there's none in Singapore because Singapore doesn't need a human rights commission. Um, but there's one. There's one in [00:22:30] Indonesia and there's one in the Philippines. And there's one in India. No, there is one in Mongolia, but there isn't one in China. Japan is. I'm not sure about Japan. It's a little while since I was involved in the A PF meetings. But at that point, um uh, Palestine had just been admitted as an observer in its own right. The Palestinian Authority, even though they didn't have a state, Israel didn't have one. Um, [00:23:00] Qatar was on the way in. Jordan has one. So, you know, there's all the way from there, um, down, uh, Korea. I think I mentioned Sri Lanka has one, and I'm not sure what their status is because they were being pushed out to observe a status because the government was interfering with their independence because, uh, that's another. That's another story. Let's let me not get Thank you. Let me not go down that track. Otherwise I'll keep you here till 10 o'clock at night. Um, but, look, I, um I agree with [00:23:30] you around the limitations of the UN framework. Um, let me press on a little bit. So how do our rights fit in? And this is sort of answering your question that you had the Universal Declaration and the covenant. All the rights referred to and the other instruments apply to all people, including those with diverse sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression. Because all humans are born free and equal in dignity and rights [00:24:00] terms of the domestic law. So what What have we done about, um, progressing? Uh, the rights of, um, the Rainbow Communities in our law. So we go back to 1986 and I talked about myself as a former criminal because prior to the decriminalisation of homosexual activity, I was engaged in such naughty things. And so I was engaging in criminal activity before July 1986 because I'm old enough to have [00:24:30] done that. And, um so this bill came in and it was very much a very very big thing in Wellington, of course, because the MP for Wellington Central was the person whose name the bill was promoted and Fran Wild. Um, so it was introduced. It was introduced in two parts, and the two parts were one to decriminalise, um, same sex activity between, um, consenting adults. [00:25:00] Uh, and the second part was to include sexual orientation in the anti discrimination provisions of the Human Rights Act. So it was in two parts. It was very divisive. You will remember those of you who are Wellingtons. It was very divisive, particularly with the launching of a petition that was set up by a couple of MP S and then very quickly, um, connected by a couple of very conservative business people and then promulgated, particularly through, [00:25:30] um, the Salvation Army at that time who took up. That is a mission for themselves. Um, and there were street matches, lots of street matches. So you had this petition rally on the steps of Parliament. Many of the signatures, um, were subsequently disregarded by the processes of vetting that took place after that. Um, but the around it was amazing and outrageous and actually quite [00:26:00] scary from my point of view. Um um And then there was there were street marches all over the country and lots and lots of places. I was involved in the 1981 Springbok tour marches, I think 1986 85 86. Marches for homosexual law Reform was scarier from my point of view, because there weren't as many people marching in the streets. There weren't as many of us 1981. There were thousands, thousands, many thousands. I remember being part of a march [00:26:30] of about 15,000 people in Christchurch, or at least a rally of 15,000 people after four marches that converged on the square. We had nothing like that in Christchurch. But we marched anyway on a Friday night down the cash, some of us wearing, you know, skid helmets to stop concrete things hitting us. So it was a bit scary, really. And I think the insults were, um, probably the most outrageous things I've heard in my life. [00:27:00] The outcome of that was that the first part was passed on the ninth of July in 1986 and the second part was lost. That second part was the guarantee of human rights and discrimination, um, human rights protection under the Human Rights Act at that time, subsequent to that, in 1990 the government passed a Bill of Rights Act a charter of rights particularly [00:27:30] focused on, um um, mostly on civil and political rights. Um, not as entrenched legislation. It's a simple act of parliament, so it can be repealed at any time. I think that's a constitutional weakness in our in our country. But that's another discussion. Um, but non-discrimination in minority rights were included. Um, and so the Bill of Rights covers general areas of human rights, particularly life [00:28:00] and the security of the person. Democratic and civil rights, nondiscrimination and minority rights, uh, around search and arrest and detention around the right to, um, just criminal procedure and the right to justice in general. On the back of that, Then comes the Human Rights Act in, um 1993 [00:28:30] and in that revision of Human Rights Act were, uh, was included the rights, uh, for sexual orientation to be included as a, um, and UN and illegal grounds for discrimination, uh, under that act. So let me just tell you what those protections are So the Human Rights Act 1993 which has been [00:29:00] amended subsequently. But the anti discrimination provisions are pretty much the same. Protects people in this country from unlawful discrimination and harassment in a number of areas of life. Sex, gender. And I've You'll see I've put gender identity next to that, and I'm going to come back to that OK? Sex, gender, marital status, religious belief, ethical belief, colour, race, ethnic and national origins, age, disability, political opinion, employment status, family status. And we added [00:29:30] sexual orientation to that. Now the reason I put gender identity in red next to sex but gender is that the the gender identity is not specifically mentioned in the legislation. Any subsequent, uh, attempt to, um, amend the Human Rights Act to include gender identity hasn't gotten very far. And we have an opinion from the Crown Law Office in 2006. I think it was [00:30:00] IE, the office of the solicitor general that says We don't need to do this because transgender people are covered by the provisions of gender in the Human Rights Act. This hasn't ever been tested in a court by anybody taking a case for or against that provision. And, um, I think it would be better personally, Um, if that was considered [00:30:30] for amendment before somebody has to actually go to court to see if they've got rights or not. That's how I see it now. There are some different opinions, but that's how I see it now. The it's prohibited disc to discriminate on those grounds in the following areas of life, which is the next slide in the government or public sector. The government's got to behave itself, um, in employment and education and access to public places and vehicles and facilities. So you can't be kicked off the bus because [00:31:00] you look like a lesbian doesn't work. Um, you're gonna be in trouble if you do that. Provision of goods and services, provision of land, housing and accommodation, and industrial and professional associations and partnerships. There have been some other human rights changes subsequent to that civil unions 2004 end of the homosexual panic defence. In 2009, which wasn't legislation, it was just removed essentially [00:31:30] by again. The Crown Law Office basically said this is no longer an acceptable defence for violent assault or manslaughter. or murder. Oh, somebody made a pass at me. So I killed him. Yeah, that was, uh, the mitigation defence. Basically, the mitigation defence no longer sits as as a viable defence in New Zealand. And that really wasn't noted too well on the way past. But it's a significant piece of, um, significant improvement Marriage Equality [00:32:00] 2013 and subsequent to, um, the work, the work that was done by the Human Rights Commission and published in 2008, which was a an inquiry into the rights of transgender people. Um, there are a number of recommendations that came to that. It was called to be who I am. We still have that up on our website, and it's there as a reference. And one of those things was about gender identity, documentation and people being able to with some [00:32:30] ease without having to go through, you know, years of legal battles to change their gender on their official documents that started to happen isn't totally finished yet, But now you can get a passport with the gender of your choice. Or, in fact, with indeterminant gender gender marked by an X on your passport. Your driver's licence you can now have with your, um with your gender on it as you want it, rather than as somebody else has decided. Or as is on your best of it. If you want to change your birth certificate, you still got [00:33:00] to currently go through the family court process. So there's a bit of work that needs to be done there. I've got lots of stuff about the Human Rights Commission. Um, and given that we're running out of time, I might just skip through a few slides. But people can ask me questions if you want about, um, the nature of the commission. But if we Nick Nick forward to number 29 LGBT rights and Communities, [00:33:30] there we go. That's the one particularly I think we've made reference to all of those things apart from currently. We're we're engaged with the intersex trust of A in New Zealand, um, and, um, with, uh, a number of other people involved in a a round table process, Um, on, uh, what happens for Children who are born with, um, ambiguous genitalia? Um, [00:34:00] well, a whole range of what the clinicians will say are disorders. Um, in terms of uh, the physical, um, the physical sex characteristics, um, which is where the term intersex is being used by people who have experience of those conditions in their lives. So we have intersex people and clinicians and midwives and human rights people all around a round table [00:34:30] working on how do we change our practise around that? Because at the moment, parents can consent to Children having essentially compulsory, um, corrective surgery. And sometimes essentially, sometimes they get it wrong and the correction goes the wrong way. And then you have a child growing up with a AAA with a gender identity issue after they've had surgery. Um, and the Committee on the Rights of the child actually [00:35:00] sent a recommendation back, uh, recently saying, Actually, this isn't OK. International Best practise is that you don't perform that sort of surgery. You need to have a look at your stuff. We were already in the process of doing this, so we're coming towards the end of that project. But that's one of the things where the commission has been active in moving things along. So it's not just about making public statements. It's not just about Billboard. It's actually about getting people around the table and getting them to talk to each other from their different points of [00:35:30] view. And it's been an incredibly productive discussion so far. Um, and we're now working towards getting the Ministry of Health to, um, have some avenues for getting some quality feedback into their, um, regulatory processes around these things. Let's, um, flick ahead. Skip ahead. There is significant back up back one. So there are a significant number of human rights matters that are still to be addressed. [00:36:00] And this isn't just about being addressed by the Human Rights Commission. This is about These are some of the human rights issues that are outstanding for people in the rainbow spectrum. And that's the first thing the right for intersex young people do not have a non consented gen genital normalisation surgery. This is a work in process from my point of view. And this isn't something that we campaign on but actually pay equity for women. Doctor Jackie Blue, our EEO commissioner, has been talking lots about this in the in the last while. And, you [00:36:30] know, we're still we're in the two thousands, you know, we in in 2017 and the pay gap between men and women in this country is still huge. And so if you look at that on the rainbow spectrum, it's basically saying that all the women and the trans women are probably going to be at a disadvantage as a pattern, not individual ones necessarily. But that's I think that's a human rights issue within our spectrum and that what that means is [00:37:00] that within our commission and within other organisations, you can walk, work across work programmes and say actually what are the impacts on this for trans people? What are the impacts on this for lesbians? Prevention of violence and bullying, particularly our young people and particularly in education and in sports sectors needs to be. We need to continue looking at and there are things going on in that sector. If we move on one access to health care for trans people, particularly around gender reassignment. [00:37:30] We've got major issues in this country around gender reassignment. We don't have any capacity to do any gender reassignment because the funding is so poor sparse that we can't actually attract a surgeon to the country because the the ministry essentially is only funding three female male to female surgeries every two years and one female to male. And that's not enough surgery to keep a surgeon interested. If they're a specialist, [00:38:00] um, and so that's and and in fact there isn't. In fact, even though they've got that small capacity, there isn't currently a surgeon in the country. Those are some of the things that need to be advanced, continually advanced with the Ministry of Health Statistics New Zealand. And there again, there are conversations going on here. But if you don't count people, we don't count. If we don't know how many same sex couple households there are in the country, you can't count. You can't actually start making [00:38:30] policy decisions on an informed basis. And it's not just about households, but, uh, they are working on that. They have developed a standard for sexual orientation, gender identity. They haven't agreed to put that into a census yet, but that's still work in progress. And again, we've talked about gender identity documentation, um, based on self identity rather than based on a medical model really important stuff. Let's move on to another one. Some of my thoughts. [00:39:00] One of the problems, one of the challenges that I see is that in terms of this pathway of the realisation of human rights and I've got a big rant there that I'm just going to keep for another day, one of the challenges I see is that actually, the majority of the people in the Rainbow communities are reasonably comfortable in terms of the realisation of their human rights. Tick the box. OK, One of the challenges that I think has happened is that people [00:39:30] have taken a breather and said, OK, we've won this right here. This right here, this right here, this right here Oh, we're really tired. Let's stop. Let's have a cup of tea or a gin or a margarita and that's turned into a a night out or it turned into a week of gins and margaritas. In fact, it's been two or three years of gins and margaritas since marriage equality and the breadth of the community is not totally enrolled in what's going on for trans people. At the moment, the rights of [00:40:00] trans people in prisons has been quite high profile within the Rainbow Communities. But I haven't heard a chorus of approval or disapproval in the direction of the minister, not from the broad community. And what seems to be happening is that the the the vocal stuff is left to a bunch of now reasonably high profile, a small group of reasonably high profile trans activists that are highlighting those things. But there's no backing coming because people are a little bit burnt out. [00:40:30] Well, I think we need to un burn ourselves out, and I think we need to put our foot back on the gas again. That's how I see it. And but from a human rights commission point of view, unless the communities get in there and do stuff, it's actually not. Not as easy for us to AAA to be activist about these things because, of course the Human Rights Commission isn't the opposition. The opposition is the opposition. The government is the government. So we have to [00:41:00] be careful about how we articulate our concern about things and we do articulate and we do articulate independently of the government. We get ourselves somewhat unpopular with them from time to time, and if we didn't, I'd be very disappointed. So we need to be able to do that. Most outstanding human rights issues impact on trans and intersex people at the moment on and because of, um, [00:41:30] other demographics on Maori, Pacifica and other ethnic minorities and on young people, because these are the people that are vulnerable in our, uh and let me let me add to that list. I did this up pretty quickly and in fact, our ageing population. We're in danger of a whole chunk of our population being marginalised and isolated because they move out of the mainstream community and into aged care. And [00:42:00] there's a there's a project going on out of Auckland called Silver Rainbow, where this is being worked on. Um, Julie, who used to work for the commission, is, um, passionate about those things, and she's doing that. But there's very little movement at the moment on how people survive in their post 65 years with dignity and with the free exercise of the human rights. There's an article in the online last week that I read [00:42:30] that said, essentially, some ageing rainbow people are having to go back into the closet when they go into aged care. OK, well, that's not ok, man, that's not OK for me because I burnt down the closet door when I came out. There isn't a closet left, for better or for worse, and I think that's how it's going to be. So there's quite a bit of work to be done there. What I'm suggested then, in summary, is that people with more influence, um than than than others [00:43:00] have often had many of their rights realised and that we need to work together to finish the job. Um, so let's do it together. Rainbow is way stronger than monochrome. We need to build internal alliances between the colours of the rainbow. We need to collaborate, communicate and forge your head together and in my rent. Um, I spoke a little bit about the monochrome and the the colours of the rainbow. One of the things is that people have gotten very comfortable [00:43:30] and they basically go to a single colour of the rainbow, which is my flavour, and they sit there and that sits sort of relatively com comfortably in mainstream society. But we tend to leave people behind. If we do that, we tend to leave people behind these strong encouragement by the forces of society, mainstream society, whether it's intentional or not to not scare the horses. [00:44:00] Yes, you can do this. Yes, you can be, you know, a little bit rainbow around the edges, but don't go overboard. You know, just get on with your normal life and we'll be fine. Well, from my point of view, actually, we were born to scare the horses, and I'm not mean to horses, but, you know, it's it's It's a metaphor, isn't it? It's about let's not trigger the anxieties and the worries and the phobias and the misinformed concerns [00:44:30] of people that could do with a bit of learning could do with a bit of education. Could do with a bit of engagement with some fabulous people. Yeah, let's not. Let's not choose to not scare the horses. Let's say, actually, the horses are are are representing some things that really could be dismantled with some engagement. And that's part of what my rent was about. I'm happy to answer some questions if anyone's got questions, I've, um, taken up lots of your time, [00:45:00] but I think that's the last slide. Yes, please. Uh, last week's lecture mentioned that it was hard to get DH BS to take any notice of any operations that transgender people wish to have. Now, is there any you specifically target educating this kill bulls, too? Alleviate this. So [00:45:30] I might. Can I go back to you and ask about this specifically about DH BS? Or is the Ministry of Health? It's DB because it's not just what you call gender assignment surgeries. There's a whole range of surgeries. Some of them are performed at the DH B level, and some DH BS are actually quite good and others like, Oh, no, because a lot of these surgeries aren't aren't just like surgeries that you just do on trans people there. A lot of therapies are therapies that have been developed [00:46:00] for other health conditions. Might be, say, a cancer operation might be something that's relevant. And they say, Oh, no, we couldn't do that for a trans person. That's basically what you get from some DH PS, which would seem to me to be a prima facie discrimination. Exactly. Yeah, and, uh, from my point of view, I think that's unacceptable. That's how I see it just on the face of that, Um and and it would be very interesting if a complaint were made [00:46:30] to one of the jurisdictions about discrimination on that basis, and you'd have two pathways, one would be to the Human Rights Commission. Through that process, the other one might well be to the Health and Disability Commissioner's office because they have a director of proceedings as well. And I would encourage that avenue to be explored if it hasn't been explored already. Because, um, just if they're saying we're not going to perform that on a trans person, then there's [00:47:00] a case for that to be looked at by one of those jurisdictions, at least one of those jurisdictions. That's how I would see it. Does it really need an individual to bring forward a complaint? If you can show that they've got a policy not to provide the service that you're providing for other people? I I would want I would want a letter from the from the If it comes from the surgeon, I'd want a letter from that surgeon in writing or from the because it's already been documented. [00:47:30] There's been various studies in recent years where they've surveyed the H BS to say What services are you making available? And there's a very wide disparity. That's already I'd be I'd be having conversations with watchdogs about that. Simply. I simply would, Um and there's a range of possibilities, but and I again commissioners don't take complaints and don't act are actively [00:48:00] involved in complaint resolution. We have an independent. Thank you. We have an in a statutory officer within the organisation that runs the mediation service, and the commissioners are actually deliberately kept out of that. We don't interfere in that process in terms of what's taken up and what isn't. Actually, um, when you said, um, we need the broader community, you know, not just some Trans people. Trans activist was the phrase you used. [00:48:30] Um, So what does you know? ST Andrews is part of the broader community. A cohesive group on this. This. So what kind of things do we need to do? Do we need to write to DH B? You know what? What kind of stuff do you do? Well, uh, again, what can be done depends on where you are in the process. But I would say if there was a, um, a project that's being driven by trans people [00:49:00] within your within your reach. And you wanted to support. You'd have the conversation with those drivers and say, What's the best support that could be? And it might very well be, um, sending letters. It may very well be meeting and lobbying. It may very well be fundraising for particular, um, political activities. Um, it may be a whole range of possibilities. And again, um, have conversations, and the commission will do the things that it does [00:49:30] now. I didn't go through all the statutory functions and how we do stuff, but, you know, we're we're a small outfit that are, uh, are there for promotion and protection of human rights and promotion of harmonious relations between people in this country. Um and, um, dispute resolution is one of the the key things that we have, um, and our capacity to run huge campaigns at the moment is is not that large as you can imagine. Um, [00:50:00] but we can see having a facilitative role in things is one of the things that works particularly well for us. Like the work that's being done in the Intersect space at the moment, um, I can see that we might be able to develop a project, um, again in the trend space for, for with specific outcomes where we do some more work, Um, or at least some responsive work. If it's not called a project, I mean, it's [00:50:30] all naming, really. But the project would if there's a project held within the, um, community of trans people that you're connected with, then that's where your support would go particularly well. I would have thought and again have conversations. Hello again. Hello? Yes, it I get that. From what? You didn't say that there. Or maybe I gathered wrongly that there isn't a universal support between the LGBT [00:51:00] Q I community on trans gender that they're not gay people aren't necessarily or even lesbian people aren't necessarily concerned with. What I'm suggesting is that people have gotten a bit better weary and have slowed down. That what I've written any any, any sort of? No, I wouldn't call it a civil war, I think I. I think I think [00:51:30] I would characterise it as a little bit of battle weariness and a little bit of thank God we've achieved that. Let's have a let's sit back and enjoy ourselves a little bit. But one of the symptoms of that or one of the fallout from that is that I think people that are still battling get left behind a little bit. And I don't personally, I don't like that. And this is me personally, rather than me Human Rights Commission. And when it comes to that, this is me as part of the part part of the rainbow community. And I say these things and I say these things inside my own community and every every so [00:52:00] often somebody grumpy at me for that. And I don't mind really, because I think we do have to work together. Um, and I don't. The idea that we leave people behind doesn't sit comfortably with me. It just doesn't Would this be partly to do with the fact of of a number thing that you've got lots of lots of and the trend is actually quite a little pro. Is [00:52:30] that part of the problem? And the other one that could be That could be one of the reasons that are missing that also need some work done. Well, I think that the, um I mean, look, there are bands of even within those categories of trans people and intersex people there's a whole range of life experiences in there. What I've learned from and look, I, I didn't know much about, um, issues for intersex people until we got [00:53:00] involved. I mean, having had conversations with a small number of intersex people, but not to great detail. But now I understand there are sort of the doctors say there are 100 different medical conditions that occur very rarely in a in in a small number of people that, they would say, make up this bunch of people that self identify as as being intersex people. Intersex is a a social terminology. It's not a medical terminology, but it covers a whole range of medical conditions. Um, it's a social [00:53:30] construct, and, um, some of those people do not want to be associated to a large extent with the rainbow community. They don't want to be associated as being different or don't don't want to be differentiated on that basis. They're essentially getting on with their their lives, and they have a condition which they have to deal with the doctor for or that they had surgery for when they were a kid, and they've having to have that recorrect or something, but there's a whole range of things experiences there, you know, I wasn't aware of that [00:54:00] Mini rainbow within the Rainbow if you want. Until I was party to this project last year. Um, there's a range of life experiences within the communities that would be generically referred to as as Trans as well. And people have different stories, way different stories. And I've learned some of those along the way and the the work that I've been privileged to be part of with trans communities supporting the implementation of that review, which I wasn't on the commission when they did that review. But I [00:54:30] was there for some of the follow up and just listening to stories. People have got greatly divergent experiences, Um, and again there's, I think you're right. There's a small number of people, but for those small number of people, these human rights issues are very, very important, uh, incredibly important. And, um, from my point of view, uh, as a as a CIS gendered and cisgender means you're of [00:55:00] a gender that is congruent with, you know, the sex you were born as as opposed to transgender, which is the other way around a CIS gendered gay male, Um, who identifies as both gay and Takata because of the Maori side of me, which is really very important. You know, I'm pretty damned privileged because we've ticked most of the boxes that are important to me as an individual person, but as a social person, as a part of a community, we haven't finished. Uh and, um, you know, [00:55:30] I can sit in a in a position of privilege and then enjoy it and soak it up, or I can sit in a position of privilege and say, Well, let's not sit and soak it up because we haven't finished. That's I think, what I'm talking about. What about the churches, uh, claiming the right to discriminate? You like to comment about that? In what context? In same sex marriage, for instance, the church has forbidden [00:56:00] ministers to We traversed that, um, when the marriage equality legislation went through and the commission was, um, comfortable upholding both sets of rights at the same time. And I think we we thought that where we got to where, um uh, the provision that was inserted into the marriage act that said that ministers, religious and organisational ministers [00:56:30] essentially, uh, whose the where the tenets of their faith go against them, carrying out same sex marriages. Marriages essentially will not be required to solemnise those marriages by the state now that because there's two sets of rights here, the right that was expressed as marriage equality on the one hand and the right of freedom of religious expression on the other. And when you get competing rights, uh, the the [00:57:00] first response is to try and uphold both of those and to have some balance to those things. And, um, that's where we got to. That's what Lewis had put into the legislation in response to that sort of feedback, even though probably it wasn't required because, in fact, the act did say and still says that a celebrant the present presentation of a valid marriage licence authorised but doesn't authorises but does not compel the [00:57:30] celebrant to solemnise the marriage. Um, but the UN clarity was there. If if that minister then said and I'm doing it on the basis of the sexual orientation of the couple, then they might still fall afoul of the anti discrimination provisions of the Human Rights Act and so that section was put in to clarify that the the churches and their appointment basis is different. They are appointed by the Registrar General upon the recommendation of the church not appointed by the registrar [00:58:00] general as being, um an independent celebrant at the community in the community and meeting a particular, um, need in the in the general community. So I I'm comfortable with that. That's where we got to end. It allowed us to put marriage equality through, um with people being relatively OK. No, not everyone was ecstatic about it. So where is the basis for for for for religious freedom? In terms of New [00:58:30] Zealand, where does that those rights? They sit within the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and within the, um, within the covenants and and and it also sets, I think you'll also you'll also find if, um, that the the unwritten fourth article of the Treaty of Waitangi actually espoused religious freedom as, uh, one of the tenets of the treaty. And it was wasn't [00:59:00] written into the treaty. But it was added verbally upon the urging of Bishop Pompeo at the signing that said, essentially, the various faiths of, um the different churches and of Maori would be preserved. The rights to those things would be preserved in the treaty. Now it's interesting. I don't know this, but my guess because the Catholics had only been here for about two years, so I think they thought they were on the back foot at that point anyway. Um, but, um and they didn't want the Anglicans and the Methodists to have too much of [00:59:30] a head start, but I think it was an interesting thing. Um, and I have a wry smile when I think about it, but actually I think it was captured in the treaty as well. But there is a difference between institutional rights or institutional expressions of religion and and the individual, the beliefs or whatever rather than individual. Yes, yes, I. I see that difference certainly in terms of the marriage act, certainly in terms of the marriage act, if I go back to [01:00:00] that because that's where the question was originally couched. It is institutional celebrants that are excused in that act. And in fact, the ruling that we have from the Registrar General of Marriages is that independent celebrants, people that are appointed as state celebs, Non-religious celebrants, non organisational celebrants are not going to be permitted. Or excuse that in terms of that's what we have from Jeff Montgomery. And that's certainly a viewpoint [01:00:30] that I've held as a human rights commissioner, and I'm and I'm active in the in in the affairs of the celebrants Association, and I've been party to some of these dialogues. But Jeff certainly confirms the position that I had promoted already was an individual independent. Sullivant aren't going to be able to discriminate with impunity on that on those grounds, they can not, according to the RG, no got one more. And then I think we might need to go and have a cup of tea. How [01:01:00] we're doing it, too. Um, yeah, that to do with the Marriage Equality Act? Yes. Um, I'm a minister, and I conducted, um, same sex weddings. Uh, but I've done so as because I'm also I'm a civil celebrant, you know? So you're appointed as an appointed as an independent celebrant, and so really, you know, the the the state is now saying to me, You cannot refuse if I've ever wanted to [01:01:30] no, not refuse to conduct a same sex wedding. Um, but my church would be saying you must You must give you So you have both registrations. No, I've only got the one right now, but question really was, um Where or isn't actually specified in when you sign marriage [01:02:00] documents and all that, the actual gender of the people concerned. I don't I can't remember when they, um births, deaths and marriages have now changed their documentation process when they generate a copy of particulars of marriage. It used to be a form that was handwritten on or typed on. Now they generate a new one based on their interview with the couple. And so it will say Bride, bride, groom Or it might say, bride, bride. Or it might say, groom, groom or it might say, partner, partner. [01:02:30] And so the the celebrant will know that you're dealing with a bride and a bride because it will say so in those copy of the particulars. So and and it's all printed with with the names, the addresses, the parents, all that stuff is all printed out from the database that they've taken with their interview with the couple. Thank you.
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