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It's, uh, now, my pleasure to, uh, introduce, uh, Carl Greenwood. Um, Carl is the chair for this evening. Um, Carl is, uh, worked for many years in HIV aids in in that area and currently the general manager at the Drugs and Health Development Project. And prior to that was at the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. So, uh, Carl is going to introduce our wonderful panel. Thanks. Uh, thanks for organising tonight. And yes, I'm Carl Greenwood, and, um, drugs, health [00:00:30] and Development Project. I run the five needle exchanges in the lower half of the North Island. So still in the, um, prevention area for HIV. Um, but more around hep C for, um, the community I work for now, uh, New Zealand's Done A is a really good example of, actually, if you tackle a problem at the beginning, um, you you can actually have make some good inroads. So in 1987 they changed the law to allow needle [00:01:00] syringe regulations, and the first needle exchange opened in 1988 in Palmerston North. And, um, and luckily, we've been able to get the message out, and people generally in New Zealand don't share needles and we've managed to keep HIV out of the community, even though hep C is huge. Um, and also, I've lived with HIV for 25 years, so I sort of have a a pretty wide knowledge of [00:01:30] just personally of the virus and how it has affected our communities. Anyway, I'll let the panel introduce themselves. Um, we'll start with Ron. Hi, everyone. I'm Ron Irvine. I'm the manager of body positive. Wellington. Uh, we've been going now since July 15th last year. And, uh, previous to that, I was in Auckland at the Body Positive centre there. We're an organisation that looks after people living [00:02:00] with HIV. We advocate for them and we run a number of services for those people. Do a little bit of testing as well and counselling, uh, that sort of thing. Um, so it is a drop in centre so people can drop in and gain information, um, and gain services from us. I'm I've been, um, from the New Zealand A. Well, I'm on the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. I've been on the trust board there since November 2011. I've been involved [00:02:30] with the foundation and its work since, uh, sort of late 1986. So I've got a bit of a history and, um, experience around this issue. I'm also an HIV positive. So I bring that sort of view point to the board and its current position, which is extremely valuable. Um and yeah. So I, I guess I was a I was a late bloomer to HIV. Like most of us. We all know how to prevent it, but it doesn't mean we always take the advice. So it wasn't until the 15th of May, 2004 that [00:03:00] I contracted the virus from, um, a person who actually knew they had the virus. I didn't know that at the time, but it was my choice to have I'd have sex with the MA at the time with my partner after a night out, drinking and a few drugs involved. So it just goes to show that even you can know everything, but doesn't necessarily mean you behave particularly well all the time. So, yeah, that's my experience. And I'm hoping to sort of contribute positively to tonight's conversation. Hi, my name is Jane Bruening. I'm [00:03:30] the national coordinator for an organisation called Positive Women we provide support for women and families in New Zealand living with HIV or AIDS and, um, yeah, I mean, that covers lots of things. We do advocacy. And we also do educational programmes. Um, yeah, and and basically support, But I've also been living with HIV for 26 years now. Um, so again, um, I've got quite an experienced panel here on HIV. [00:04:00] Ok, Um um, just see my auntie walk in the room and, um yes, my name is and, um, I just realised [00:04:30] Oh, you guys are in. This is where I come from. I'm so I'm supposed to be welcoming you guys, so But, um currently I work and live in in the Waikato. Um, but definitely my from here. Um, my is is in an organisation called, which is for Maori indigenous and South Pacific, and it's a foundation, but it seems I have a lot of hats [00:05:00] there, and one of them is, um, the co-chair of the International Indigenous Working Group on HIV and a I, which is international, has 11 countries. Um, and I'm also a board of director member of um I CSO, which is the International Council of AIDS organisations based in Toronto. So there's my three hits. But I also, um our organisation does the same thing as, um, body positive and positive women with a bit of a Maori twist. And we do a lot of [00:05:30] thanks very much. Uh, hi. Um, I'm Nigel Raymond. Uh, I'm, uh, an infectious disease physician at Wellington Hospital. Um, and so, as well as HIV work and other general infectious disease areas and also in general medicine. Um, so, yes, I've I mean, I started off when I was doing my registrar training in Christchurch in the 19 eighties. [00:06:00] At first, uh, folks, uh, started to, um to, uh, return often to from New Zealand, from the States to New Zealand and, uh, and then worked in Waikato. We remember in Ackland and Auckland and, uh, uh, worked in Atlanta in the States. Um, when in the, um, late, uh, beginning of the 19 nineties. Four years when there was a lot of sort of aid era, Uh, and [00:06:30] then I've been back in Wellington, um, since, uh, 1996. So I just started years. Um, and, uh, yeah, so So we have, um uh, relatively small, you know, department and Wellington Hospital with two other part time I physicians as well as myself and James at the back there who is probably the crux of our service with, um and and and others who are involved in and help [00:07:00] as well. Um, And, uh, So you said there are about 300 people that will follow through the service? Um, yeah. So, um, um, pleasure to be here. Thank you. I'm looking forward to to learning from other people as well. Thank you. Panel. That was, um great. So tonight we've decided to, um, split this into four sections. We're gonna do a segment on Stigma Media, um, support [00:07:30] and education and wellness stigma. Right. It's probably one of the, um, most difficult things we have to deal with as positive people. It's absolutely right. Um, and I'm going to pass it over to the panel to comment on instagram. Imagine you've all got stories or, um, examples. I certainly have [00:08:00] you got you got the stigma. Yeah. Um, well, just like the gentleman there in the hospital, My ex partner, um, had, uh, had a similar situation in Auckland Hospital, and that was probably 15 years ago. um and, you know, it was it was a really tough time, because, um, you know, [00:08:30] people would come in and say, Why you Why do we have to put gowns on And, you know, and And I remember there was a little red dot And if there was a red dot on your name, um, your name tag? Um, that meant that you are HIV positive. Um, and again, that was putting, um, us into something that, you know, if if people knew about that, I would, um um, it would [00:09:00] identify, identify us. And we've certainly come a long way since those, uh, those times for sure. But I think we've really got a a, um uh, A long way to go. I got a couple. I've always got a yarn to. No, actually, these are back in the nineties. Um, I had a car accident between Martin and balls. [00:09:30] You guys know where Martin and balls is? Yeah. I had a car accident on the side of the road there, and I was actually pinned into the car and they had to cut me out of the car, and I actually didn't have any injuries on me. at all. I had a bit of glass in my ear and a couple of scratches and glass in my hair. And they they rushed me off to, um I shouldn't say the hospital, but hospital. And, um, there was someone else in the car with me and and they basically got X-rayed were out waiting for me, um, six hours later and I couldn't [00:10:00] understand why it took so long for them to process me and put me through the x-ray, you know, x-ray me so I could at least get up off the table. And, um, I actually was perfectly fine and my head had gone through the the side window of the car. But anyway, um, I found out afterwards that it's they didn't want me to be on their brand new X-RAY machine in case I bled on it. So they were waiting for one in storage to be pulled out and put in a back room so they could take me down [00:10:30] to the old one because it didn't matter if I bleed on that one. And I remember thinking afterwards thinking, Well, I'm sure they can wash it and thinking, and it just it's always stayed with me. That sort of stigma and things have changed a lot since then. I've got a doctor next week. Things have changed a hell of a lot since then, but I must say it's even in the system in some of the hospitals today. You still it depends who you get. I mean, of course, our, um, HIV specialists and and, um, people that are working with it day to day [00:11:00] know what's going on. It's the ones that don't know what's going on where you get the stigma and discrimination. And I suppose the only other sort of story that popped in my mind that happened, um, again in the nineties? Well, actually, no. It was 2001. Um, I was teaching at a at a, uh, a high school, and it was just a two days a week type thing going in and and teaching a bunch of kids some songs and and and things like that. And, um, they knew that I had, uh, one [00:11:30] of the parents knew I had HIV. And next thing you know, there was this huge sort of, uh, activism to getting rid of me, getting me off the school grounds and and stopping me from teaching these Children as if I was somehow going to pass the virus on to them by teaching it. It was kind of a really sort of situation that stood out to me in in the early two thousands. So it's still out there? Yeah, definitely. It was only two years ago. I went in to get a blood test and [00:12:00] the nurse came in and looked at my form. And actually I could see her freaking out and she put the form down and left the room, and she came back about five minutes later and, um, put on gloves and and and sort of really sort of made a point. And actually, she did such a bad job that actually, when I got up out of the chair and walked out, the blood started running down my arm because she she'd been shaking and she wasn't comfortable with with taking my blood. And that was that was, and that was only a couple of [00:12:30] years ago. And so it still happens. It's still happening. Um, this year I've had, um, one person come to me who'd been kicked off a course when, um, the course, Um, organisers found out that he was HIV positive and he came to me and, um, we we talked it through and I was like, Sue them, Sue them. You know, this is absolutely, completely disgusting. It's completely, um, they're breaking the law. It it's just there's no [00:13:00] there's no argument here that they completely, um you know, um, your human rights are being crushed, And so he did. And after the talk, he was able to sort of go back and confront them a lot, a lot stronger. And actually, they backed down very quickly because they realised that actually, they had broken the law and he could have sued them and and actually, they put him back on the course, and he's actually now finished. But, um, when I was working for NZAF as well, I after probably [00:13:30] two or three times, I got a phone call from from someone saying, I've got a positive person who wants to work in my kitchen. I give them You better give them the job. But it was just like it's basic, simple stuff, but the stigma around it, it's like you should be. If you're working in a kitchen, it doesn't matter if you're HIV or hep C you you should be aware of all there should be guidelines to follow around cuts and accidents and and to discriminate on HIV. It [00:14:00] just shocks me and makes me incredibly angry, actually. So you don't want to get me on the end of the phone if you're asking those questions because you'll get a right ear for. But, I mean, that's, um so within the health service we've talked about, um, the stigma and employment, I think there's probably, um when I talk to people, I say that actually, you shouldn't put it on your employment If you're applying for a job, it's actually has [00:14:30] no relevance to you getting that job. And actually, I think it's something you shouldn't put on an application for a job interview. It's, um, it it's not important. Um, I suppose my question now is to the panel is, do you think there's more discrimination around within smaller groups? So around, um, immigrants, um, around indigenous populations or within the gay community? Do you think there's [00:15:00] more stigma there than than what there is in from mainstream? I've got the stick, so I'll talk. But, um, I just and I don't I don't wanna talk about indigenous. I won't go there. But I guess just something that you know, talking about stigma. I mean, personally, I've never really had any bad experience around stigma. Nobody's done anything discriminatory. And and I've been, you know, not really had any bad experiences. But in saying that, I kept [00:15:30] it a secret for 17 years. And I think that is really what happens around stigma is that people, um, hide behind some sort of mask. And a lot of people living with HIV will not be public about their status. They will keep it to themselves, and they won't tell anybody. And the the biggest tragedy around that is that they are very isolated and and, you know, can lead to depression and, um, keeping to oneself. And that hasn't changed. I think in the 30 years that stigma [00:16:00] hasn't changed. And, um, one of the things I see in the work that I do is that we have a lot of African migrants and refugees that have come over and, you know, with the, um, publicity around internationally globally, you know, Africa has got the highest. You know, 76% of people living with HIV come from Africa. So when these people come to New Zealand, they feel like just because they're black, they walk around with HIV written on their head and that people just assume that they're HIV positive because, um and they don't People [00:16:30] the general public don't really say HIV. They're still saying aids. They don't really understand the difference between HIV and A I DS And so they sort of a lot of the African, um, members that that we have have been heavily discriminated against. They've been asked questions like, Have you had a HIV test which is totally unconnected to anything else just because they're black? Because they're from Africa? Um, so the stigma is still very much there. Um and I don't think it's it's changed, [00:17:00] not pass it on to anyone else who would like to Yeah, like like Jane. Personally, I've never experienced, um, stigma myself. But what I do Well, maybe I Maybe I have, I guess, within our own community, within, within the the gay men who have sex with men community, there is still a lot of stigma attached with being HIV positive. We hear of things like, Are you clean? Yes, yes, I've had a shower, you know, and I. I think that's that's one of the challenges that we face is that Jane referred to the [00:17:30] isolation. There are so many people who are HIV positive that I know who don't even know that their best friend is HIV positive because they don't have the ability to talk about it because it is so stigmatising in our community, not even at the sexual level. But at the social level, it is not OK to talk about having HIV amongst a large number of people with even within our community, where in some respects it's even been normalised. And I think part of the challenge for for us as as positive people, is to try and be a little [00:18:00] more open about it and try and encourage other positive people to talk to us about it so we can start building these networks. And I think that's something that, um as organisations we all struggle with. We can offer support, we can offer counselling we can offer, you know, someone to go along to wins or we can enter into a debate with a potential employer or a health service on their behalf. But what we don't do particularly well is facilitate a community around HIV positive people. We as organisations [00:18:30] are often seen as the place you go when you've got a problem with being HIV. But there are a significant number of people out there with HIV who feel isolated, who have depression, who their lives are. OK, their their health is all right. They're muddling along but they're incredibly isolated and they're isolated because we don't talk about it in positive terms. When we have our conversations with people, um be the on grinder online in a bar or whatever, it doesn't come up. It's part of something we don't want to talk about, you know? And [00:19:00] I think that there's a real challenge there for us and I think that's something that we as positive people. But also we as a wider um, community have to start embracing and and talking about it more openly. Sorry, can I just add something to just something that adds on to stigma is something that I don't know. If you've heard the terminology of Internalised stigma or self stigma. And often what happens then is people living with HIV take on all of those external, um, you know, attitudes and and actually believe [00:19:30] it about themselves. And I guess from my perspective, like I my partner and I finished 20 years ago and I have not been in another relationship since then. And that's purely because I don't have the confidence to get into a new relationship because I've got HIV. And even though I work in the field and I'm, I'm out about my status, and I just don't have the confidence to go into a relationship because I feel that I'll be coming into a relationship if they they're not positive at a lower level. You know, I'm I'm going to be the one that something's wrong with that person. [00:20:00] So, um and and that happens, that's my experience of it. And it's an experience that I have heard from a lot of other people as well. Is this internalised stigma where they feel dirty? They feel bad about themselves and and it attacks their own self esteem. And that's what we call an internalised stigma. Yes, um, I can I can talk from personal experience. Um, with when I was diagnosed, it was pretty public. [00:20:30] And I found that, um my entire community, my, my, we all found out at the same time I did that I had HIV. And the instant, um, sort of sort of reaction was I couldn't cook in the kitchen at the I couldn't do the dishes. I couldn't touch anything. I. I was dangerous. There was something wrong with me Don't drink, wasn't allowed to, you know, share cups or bottles of drinks. And And I think the the internal stigma stuff for [00:21:00] me was that I was so afraid of the judgement that I would get from my own people that I I was due completely. And I actually the funny thing was the people that actually helped me up when I did withdrew what were, um were the gay community were men from the gay community and the Maori community were there for me. Um, there was my uncle who was around way back and he started a organisation. It was all those guys that [00:21:30] that helped me, um, with my diagnosis, even though I wasn't gay, and in a way, I was a minority as a woman, Maori and HIV Positive. I had all these sort of marginalised things put on me. And, um, that was, you know, 1993. But since then, um, you know, I've really made it my sort of life, cause to keep educating and talking and I I do do a lot of, um, sort of talks with my community or around Maori communities around. [00:22:00] And one of the things that I found, um, kind of crosses over is the the and and the HIV thing crossing over into to what I'm doing in the sense of that, um, there's still a lot of denial around it. And there's still a lot of, um, stigma associated just with being yet it's actually part of the, but we everyone has in their everyone has a cousin or a or [00:22:30] a or, you know, a transgender member in our in our family. And and I thought about it going back for years in history. I had uncles, lots of uncles that were that, um we didn't even think about twice and I, I think it's it's for for me. And I've said it and you quote me. I've said it in other articles as well as that there is there is a form of sort of a thought process introduced stigma that I call it where, [00:23:00] um, our people have gone through these stages of of colonisation of years in religion. And I'm not just talking about Maori. I'm talking about Pacific Island migrants, all sorts of things where religion has really, um, changed the way that people think. And it has sort of distanced themselves from through who who their people are, um, from dangers of things like HIV because it's sort of like, Oh, that'll never happen to me It's it's those people over this problem. [00:23:30] And so what I'm talking about is that when I go into the communities, it's actually peeling back all those layers of stigma and discrimination getting to you know who we were as a people at the core and then coming back to, you know, Well, this is what can happen to your your, um, or your grandchild. Um, that most definitely And they're gonna go out in the world if they don't know anything about looking after themselves. This is a real risk to them, and that's that's [00:24:00] the conversations I end up having, and it's it's really funny because there's some hugely homophobic sort of attitudes and right in front of me II I had this story. I was at this house and, um, he sitting up, you know, always have a car when you're at someone's house. And, um, this beautiful came in just just a awesomely gorgeous. And her grandfather was just downing everything to do with the MS M. All of that. It was so anti it. And [00:24:30] then an obvious trans transgender walked in the room and and served us this beautiful meal. And I was looking at him and I went and he went, Oh, he's alright and I just realised it. That's that's the kind of difference it's like Yes, for the talking sort. Of course, they'll say what they think they're supposed to say, but on a real level, if it is in their final, they're completely loving and accepting, and it's just part of the of the process. But I will say within indigenous [00:25:00] culture, sometimes we're harder on ourselves, so we do stigmatise ourselves harder. And, um, I've got to acknowledge that my husband is here, um, from Papua New Guinea. And it's another culture that is very much doesn't talk about this stuff, because it first of all, it's illegal. It's it's, um, very dangerous. There's religion involved. There's a lot of those sorts of stigmas and discrimination. So they come to New Zealand, and we're so open talking about these things. But, uh, I suppose I'm rambling [00:25:30] now, but the point I'm trying to make is that yes, it does happen within our own indigenous populations, and it's really up to us to shine a light on in on it and talk about it. She put a Yeah. Thanks. Um, yeah. So I think, um, stigma has been associated with infectious disease problems. Um, for boys. And, [00:26:00] um so it is Well, you know as well as HIV, you know, it's certainly associated with other things like TV, um, hepatitis, BC, leprosy, meningococcal disease. Um, and, um, probably doesn't go away altogether. Um, the things have improved in some respects. Um, certainly it was, but I'm settling to see a journalist from Wellington Hospital. Um, [00:26:30] I. I wasn't quite sure why he would be in respiratory isolation. I wondered whether because of, um, being so, um I don't know anything about the circumstances, but I wondered whether they might have been worried about TB or something else like that at the same time, so far as the masks went, Um, but it's hard to know. It's kind of reassuring to see that they had the old Wellington hospital building that had been knocked down. So, um, hopefully things have moved on. We we have, um, some things. I think, uh, [00:27:00] we don't, uh we the way that people's notes are kept and things are really mainstream much more than they were. So we don't really have separate charts or anything like that, and more people are looked after. We are in a general clinic. Um uh, they were talking about the needlestick accidents. And we have, um, the, uh, set ups for blood and body fluid exposures which, uh, which really, um, [00:27:30] help to protect people where that there is a real problem. But but de diffuse the whole thing, uh, where it could get out of proportion. So, um, so those types of things are, um, arrangements help to deal with some of the things around the story around the policemen and the people who where there was concern around. Um um, but that around possible exposure. And I think there there is [00:28:00] probably a lot more knowledge that, um, you know, there needs to be, um, the exposure risk, for example, with cutaneous exposure in tap skin. You know, it is really, um uh less than, you know, 1.3 and 1000 and so that people, um, I think there's increased knowledge just to how, um, low risk is even with actual blood exposures. And, um uh, [00:28:30] So, um yeah, I think one of the things that may be a factor as well is it is, um, in some respects is HIV has kind of become a chronic condition and less in the public eye, you know, then, um a lot of clinicians or public don't really see much about it. So it may be some of the things which we have changed and improved treatments really aren't known about, Um that's [00:29:00] one thing. I think that the comments about employment moving away from the health sector, I think the employment area, I think, um, we we've certainly seen people who have, um have disclosed about their HIV applying for a number of jobs and, you know, been told that they'll be called back and never have. Um, I suspect that that employers may ask people specific health diagnoses too often, [00:29:30] really? When I. I think that they probably really only need to know whether a health condition affects the person's ability to do a job. And so it's a functional thing rather than a diagnosis. I think, um, that that's been easier to manage in the health sector, where we have occupational health positions who can see people And, um, if they've got HIV or hepatitis B and there are certainly nurses and doctors who have got, um all those [00:30:00] at Wellington Hospital, Um and so they, you know, would, um, have arrangements around whether they there were particular things that they couldn't do, which the large part is really in the hospital setting would be, um uh would be involvement in major surgery, um, as a doctor. So for nurses, that probably wouldn't occur much. Um, but out in the community, really, there isn't a lot of reason, [00:30:30] as you say to it would only really be if somebody is going to be away from work because of illness. Um, and a lot of the time now people are just attending clinic the odd time a year. So we're really talking about a fairly low impact. And and I think, um, I'm not quite sure how to get around that, that that people are being asked what their actual health problem is rather than whether it impacts on their health. You don't have to answer that job that in a in a job interview, anyway, it's it's no, it's no one's business [00:31:00] from the floor. Is there any questions or comments or anything anyone wants to to bring in on stigma before we move into media? How, um, for me, stigma started before my diagnosis, so it just sort of carried on for me as far as I was concerned. But, um, a lot of areas [00:31:30] of in a lot of the eras in my life, um, it made it worse, especially in trying to find employment up to even to the state. If the employer asked me my health status and I say, why is that important? And and I said, I don't have to answer that and he says, Well, you're not getting the job, and that's been [00:32:00] the response of an employer every time I've had a job interview, they shouldn't even be asking that question. But, yeah, II, I can believe that. And as I said, II, I told them I I'm not. I don't have to tell you my status, my health status. And then they just turn around and say, Well, we won't give you the job. I see there's not a lot you can do with this. [00:32:30] Thanks. You know, sometimes in that situation, we, um, try to see where the GP will sometimes do a note to say that somebody's got a chronic health problem. Um, and that will mean that they might be. You get to give them a rough idea of that. They might be away from work. Um, you know, whatever it might be, perhaps rather than II, I think [00:33:00] that's not an easy thing to do, but, um, to be honest. But, um, I think perhaps saying that if somebody has a health problem, but without saying what it is. But perhaps in the GP might have some role in advising the extent that that might impact on he's ability to do a job. But that's I think that's a difficult one. Hi. Um, [00:33:30] I was, um I totally agree with what was saying about the stigma. And, um, I've got friends who are positive who won't go near a support organisation for fear of being exposed. I recently heard of, um, someone in Auckland who, um, sarah converted, became they became aware of their status, uh, positive and, you know, for no time at all, it was right around the community and not in a particularly, [00:34:00] um, positive way that been, there's so many in windows. But, you know, it went right around and it's just it's shit, and we don't We don't talk about it. Um, we don't talk about people. Sara converting in a in a political basis. Anyway, it's it's really fucked up that part. So I'm trying to think I'm sitting here trying to think of what's a solution, and I don't have one. But one of the things that we did in the past, [00:34:30] um, when I was at the clinic, um, years ago, um, was we did the education programme, we would go out and talk to schools, and I remember going to, um, there was a terrifyingly large woman moving from, um abused like shit at school. It was kind of nice to Barbara. I always felt safe. But, you know, sending me a gay man back to school, um, to talk about AIDS was, you know, terrifying. But I did feel that it worked. But the other part the other component, which is really where you [00:35:00] guys are heroes is that, um is a positive speakers bureau. And, you know, um, it's not really fashionable to get a, um, an HIV after dinner speaker, but it should be fashionable to have an after dinner speaker. You guys are heroes. And you know, there's so many people who won't do what you're doing, so don't minimise. I mean, not saying don't, you know, celebrate what you're to achieve, but in some way the Positive Speakers Bureau that the I don't know who used [00:35:30] to run it. Um, the free aid support network was really, really good. So it might be one way. But I think it's really about education. When I look at all of the examples and also gave me and my experience to say it gave me, um who are actually positive. And they can't, um, get relationships because people won't have relationships with them and things because they are positive. It's horrible. Whereas really, the reality is that if you treat everyone like that positive, [00:36:00] then the chance to say you might not see yourself, you know, education. Thanks, Hamish. Yeah, I've had that experience of not disclosing early in a relationship. And when I did disclose they were gone the next life, right, we're going to move on to the next half after that, you know, a really good topic. And I thought I just wanted to share my experience. Um, So [00:36:30] when I was, uh, diagnosed, I, um I went to a couple of good friends of mine and the community and, um told them the diagnosis and, uh, the reason why my partner at the time and I hadn't been that well, and, uh, we were told, uh, don't tell anyone. Don't tell anyone at all. Keep it to yourselves. And, um, I was a little bit confused, probably for a couple of weeks. Um, as to why, that would be the case. And I understood. Obviously there would be some [00:37:00] effects from from people knowing and potentially treating me differently. Um, but I sort of took it the other way. And I within a couple of weeks, um, advised my employer of diagnosis, and he was concerned, Um, so I took it as a as an educational opportunity to tell him what the effects were going to be on his business. And, uh, and in [00:37:30] the end, ended up talking to the board of directors as to the effects on the business, which and there was no, Um, but I guess the one thing that I did is sort of took it upon myself to educate people that didn't know. And, uh, I was lucky that I had people like Carl that helped me through that process so that I had the information that I could pass on to those that didn't have the information. And I guess that's just my sort [00:38:00] of two cents and and and advice to other people was, you know, don't don't bottle it up. Um, actually, let's start educating the community about the effects that it has on the community, and that is to be honest, thanks, and it But it does take a strong character to be so up front. And, um, I would say you're in the minority, not in the majority. [00:38:30] Most people actually and and and actually give themselves a hard time. And internalised stigma is is very much something that we have to deal with. And I think it really when you get a positive diagnosis, it can quite often and really affect your self esteem and your own sense of, of of, well being Carl, Carl. Yes, I can say, um, I think that from I think most, [00:39:00] most most, uh, a lot of people who, um, have done that I've talked to have, um, had a similar positive experience that, um, most people and family, you know, when they find out are supportive. Um, uh, but it it, um I mean, one option is to, um to leave that possibility open for a little while after you've got your head round it to start with. You know, um, so, um uh, not [00:39:30] telling everybody back at the very beginning is is, um yeah, there's one option. And then, uh, that, um, being more open and and, uh, education, educating and, uh, and finding that people most people are decent. Um, you know that it can be at the next step. Uh, sorry, um So I actually work as a patient advocate in the [00:40:00] states, um, at HIV clinic. And one of the things I'm curious about is I think stigma usually relates to the way that we talk about HIV, and particularly to people who may not have somebody who is HIV positive in their immediate circle. Um, so one of the things that I found is that, at least in the states, um, HIV is one of a few sexually transmitted diseases that pathologize by million in speech. Um, and there's not really a good way or at least widely known way of positive way that's accessible [00:40:30] to people who don't really understand it. So I'm curious from the panel members, whether you have any suggestions or ways that you can talk about HIV and more accessible. Or I suppose, coming from an employer point of view, Um, I think when we start to get into the last topic a little bit, actually, it's around the legalities of things. And at this current time in New Zealand, there's no legal requirement to disclose. [00:41:00] Um, when it comes to you offering to to educate and and, um, disclose yourself. Um, of course, you know, you've got to weigh up the pros and cons of that. You've got to look at both sides of that. And most people, um, especially, um, Jane can attest to this as well. That we've known for say organisations like positive women is that it's actually been quite positive. Um, there hasn't been any really bad sort of thing. And I think we started tonight's [00:41:30] session and we're sort of going back. You know, it's about 30 years of HIV, I suppose. And I think when we're getting up to like where we are now, we're actually becoming a lot easier to talk about, mainly because the descendant is off off the plate. So it's not hanging over our heads as the the possibility anymore. Um, the other side, though, like talking about pros and cons, is that, um, it's still really hard for for women to disclose because of the partner issue and [00:42:00] because people the men do run for the hills. And I think, um, you know, that's where if we if we go on to the criminalization of of HIV, which is on the agenda, I mean we're over, but we start looking at those sorts of issues. For women, it's a It's a huge thing because there are a lot of women that don't disclose and, um, with their sexual partners because they don't feel they need to at this stage, Um, where was I going with that? [00:42:30] To expect everybody to become, come out and speak openly about their status is really asking a lot because there still was a lot of negative Sort of What do you call it? Flat back flat back of that and and I'm still getting it after having no time. Um, private, you know, I've been I've been 21 years and I'm still getting it. I still get, uh, the parents of other people's Children sort of not wanting their kids to play with my kids. You know, I still [00:43:00] get very subtle things, and I suppose what it's taught me is that I can't control how everybody thinks I can't change the world all by myself, even though I try and I think, uh, for me, I, I can only change my way of dealing with it. And if I see it and I go, Oh, yeah, it's one of them. They are one of them. I put them in that category. Oh, they are one of those sorts of people. And then I move on with life and I get on with it. And I think [00:43:30] the thing that I want to teach my Children is to be the same way you know, it does. It's none of my business what anyone else thinks of me. Um, it's also, though I do say to people, You don't have to disclose when you're applying for a job. And so you know, there there are times when you just got to use your noggin and think about, um when is it a good time to disclose? And when is it is it not? And trust your your instinct as well. So should we go to media? Just Just [00:44:00] one thing I wanted to say about that was I think one of the challenges that we have, um particularly as the gay community is that it wasn't so long ago that gay equaled AIDS in the Western world. So we have got the stigma. You know, there's a lot of denial about HIV and conversations about HIV because to acknowledge HIV, um means, you know, I can be gay without HIV, and so I'm different. I'm somehow better. I am not a I DS and I think there's a real big fundamental difference, Um, particularly in the [00:44:30] gay community and and why There's a lot of denial and why a lot of people not want to talk about openly because to actually openly acknowledge that actually, it is a really big deal for us at the moment. You know, in in New Zealand, we're about one in 20 in Australia out. They mean it's about, you know, it's about 28%. I think in some cities, you know, I think part of the challenge. I mean, it's not that much better in some parts of the States. I think it's about 32 up in, um, San Francisco. So when when [00:45:00] you want to define and build, build a community and build your strength around it and and have equality and have equal rights and be seen as human sometimes in the community we want to be seen as not being AIDS. We want to be seen as being equal, and somehow part of the challenge with us as HIV positive people is to be seen as not less equal, you know? And so I think, you know, that is, you ask a perfectly pertinent question. I think that is our challenge. That is our challenge [00:45:30] to try and have these discussions so that we can engage positive people within our own community. Positively. But we just don't. Thanks for mix. Um, it just suddenly remembered I was so that I'm a member of out at work, which is a, um, a trade union based group CTU Centre Centre of Trade Unions. Um, um and and immediately I thought, [00:46:00] Well, um, it's like, Well, I'm gay. I'm I'm not only that, I'm a member of a trade union, which isn't the most fashionable thing. Um, amongst people. Um So And also, um, being gay in the trade union movement is the most isn't the most fashionable thing either. Um, but there is, um, a group, uh, you can go to to to try and work [00:46:30] through the trade union movement. Um, it's a solidarity based, um, and sympathetic. Um, and I think the reason to be very concerned with, um, matters of gender and and move to try and get people who are who are straightforwardly male or female, um, to get rights for people in that situation. Um, and I felt over the compared [00:47:00] to, um, tackling things 30 years ago. And I think in the trade union movement, it's probably gone off the, um it shouldn't have, but, um, for various reasons, and it's been displaced, plus the fact that, um, people are leaving you rather enjoying the times as well. So, um, so I've rambled on a bit and things like that, but there's a there is a sort of niche. [00:47:30] There is a place to go, but it is something to think about. Yeah, Um, definitely for me. Yeah. And you're right. It has gone off the boil. It's, um, not discussed much anywhere these days. Do you want to move on to the next clip? We have, sort of. We're sort of we're going to play another clip, but we've already sort of started talking about some of this stuff anyway, so we'll play a clip and then we'll just carry on with talking about media and the media sort of portrayal of HIV, [00:48:00] which could be quite interesting, especially with some of the language that's been used recently around HIV in the media. I think one of the things that shocked me was when we heard about a child in, um, being asked to leave school. And I just I just was absolutely gobsmacked that here we were sort of 25 years on from Eva. [00:48:30] Um, and we were having a very similar story happening all over again, and I sort of wondered how far we'd actually moved in 2025 years. Um, I thought it was quite horrific. Um, and I think there was for a lot of positive people, the language that was used around the Glenn Mills case was really disturbing, Um, and and quite [00:49:00] negative towards, um, for the positive people. I think I had a lot of people coming in and see me at work and being quite sort of disturbed by the whole media coverage of the Glenn case. Um, the floor. Any questions? Thoughts, ideas, um, questions for the panel? Or do I just go straight into the panel right straight over to the pan [00:49:30] thoughts around media, I think, um, just yeah, we've got a couple of recent cases, but I think, um, media have played a huge part in um, sensationalising HIV for the last 30 years and not only in our country, but all around the world. And it has, um, attributed to the stigma and discrimination to the fear, the panicking, the, um, the fear of getting tested in case [00:50:00] that you've got that what they're talking about on TV. Um, even in the early days, you know, there was Philadelphia recently. We've just had the Dallas Buyers Club. Um, it's kind of brought it back up in in in people's sort of radar again. And, um Then there was the, um, Peter case in 93 which I was involved with. And I think, um, as for me, I can say that if it wasn't for the media, I wouldn't [00:50:30] have found out that I was HIV positive. So I kind of in a way, thankful that the media were there. But on the other hand, it wasn't nice afterwards, and it continued to be quite awful. So there there is a double edged sword and it took me at least 12 years to get a handle on how to deal with media and I. I think it's now it's about us as positive people actually taking control of it and making sure that whatever is printed [00:51:00] about us is with us first. And we approve of it. Um, the S, the sensationalism, those stories that came out about Mills and and the young boy up in I mean, it brings it to the people's attention again. Um, because of course, you know, it's sensationalism. It's the media wanting to sell papers. It's people wanting to switch over and watch that TV programme because this is happening. It doesn't do us any favours because it still [00:51:30] makes us look dirty. Makes us look like we've got something that you know we should be split it all over the news about, um, I find that it's how you deal with the media while you're doing it is it's really not learning and public speakers bureau training. Um, is very good in that sense is that it has a component of media in there and how to, um, work with media because media will will twist your words. I've had them do it to me. I've had [00:52:00] whole articles written about me that was completely untrue, and I've had Paul Holmes rubbishing me on on when he was alive years ago on the radio. So I kind of I you know, I've seen two sides of it. Um, I think we need to also put again use our brains and realise that not everything we read is, um, again, there was media today. You know, that was a bit sensationalist, um, for a lot of people in the HIV sector over the years. [00:52:30] And, um, I thought, Well, here they go again. You know, the they put AIDS in the same sentence as some other kind of abusive situation, which again it makes us all makes us all look bad again, even though it's got nothing to do with HIV. Um, it's filtering what's real and what isn't and that that's the hard challenge. And again, it takes more people that are living with HIV to speak up about it for that to happen. [00:53:00] I think it's really interesting when we refer to people like Eve Bo graft horse. Who people may remember was a was a toddler who was thrown out of a kidney a kind in Australia and was sort of sent back to New Zealand with a New Zealand mom and stuff like that New Zealand embraced her in a way that we've never seen anyone with that being embraced with, um in in New Zealand. And I think it's actually really impossible for us to understate or sort of to overstate the actual effect that having someone like Eve really [00:53:30] high profile in the New Zealand media back in the late eighties and early nineties was to New Zealand in terms of us actually being able to achieve some of the some of the things that we did. I don't think that Catherine O'Regan would have been able to get through the, um, anti discrimination laws in 1993 if it wasn't for the profile that we manage to achieve because one little girl, um, who was actually positive who was thrown out of Australia, which actually helped New Zealand psyche, um, you know, educate us a bit. [00:54:00] I think the saddest part of all that was that it didn't really matter how many gay men had died of HIV before then. It didn't matter in New Zealand until a three year old girl had HIV, and I think that's part of the stigma and part of the challenge with media that we've got at the moment. You know, again, as Mama just referred to, you know, there was a There was a case of a of A of a person in trust of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation who has been convicted to [00:54:30] come, you know, punished today for, um, sexually abusing some inappropriate people or people were inappropriate. He was inappropriate. Um, but, you know, again, as I said, it was HIV and again, another negative connotation. It it continues that stigma continues their staff that, uh uh which is which is wider than HIV gears against our community. And so we there is a role to play in me. And I think, um, you know, it's good that Jay is here to report on proceedings tonight and take part in the [00:55:00] discussion. But I, I don't think we can still put our hands on our hearts and trust the media. And I work for the media. I can't work for the radio network, so I I'm out there with that, um I think we've got to be really careful with media. We still feel that we need to manage media. We still feel whenever the media wants to interview anybody or talk to them about HIV. We all take this sharp and take a breath and go Oh, fuck! Now what? You know, we actually don't have that confidence in media, and I think we've got to get better at it. And we've got to educate [00:55:30] media better about HIV and normalise it a lot more because all those every little chip that the media makes against us or against our community because of the perceptions of HIV is another little stigmatising thing that forces that person who's just been diagnosed not to confide in anybody, even the best friend who may also happen to be HIV positive. So, yeah, I was going to throw a curveball in, but I think we'll just move on and I'll leave that for a bit later [00:56:00] on if we've got time. Um, yeah. Is it a very broad term? Who are we talking about? And me, How are we talking about in me too? Um, to change this approach that we're referring to and the way in which we reported, you know, Is it is it the journalist specifically, or is it uh is it the entire industry? [00:56:30] It's probably the entire industry it's wanting to. It's they they sensa. Sensationalise is a really good word, I think. But maybe Jake should answer this one. Um, but I think you it's a It's a big picture. And it's all about selling papers, isn't it? But, ja, I'm gonna come to the defence of some of our media. I think talking about the media is wrong. [00:57:00] Um, talking about, um an interview on morning report or on nine to noon is different to talking about a bit of talk back on radio live. Uh, a beat up of the Sunday news is very different to a piece of the, um the two pieces that we've seen tonight, uh, that have struck me on the screen. The first one was the piece [00:57:30] on the guys who came to the assistance of the road accident victim that got covered in his blood. I covered that from gay angle. Um, some may know here some may not most of New Zealand doesn't know, But the two guys who got covered in blood were gay, and the media knew that in this case to New Zealand, and they quietly air brush that I love the picture in order [00:58:00] to be able to clearly present outraged of Bay Michael, concerned that the Ministry of Transport had not followed through and made everybody aware of what they needed to know. Those guys knew a lot more than we get from that picture about how exposed or not that may have been. But the media and it looked like a bit of a Oh my God, it's HIV! Oh my God, they could have been Oh, my God, People could have got this virus. They [00:58:30] could be dead by now Story if it wasn't it could have been played out like that. But that video played it the way we would want. But he realised it was not, um what was the piece of the piece with the, uh, the young boy and what they wanted to do? There was another van didn't quite work out in a way, but that's what they were trying to do was the [00:59:00] only way of getting through to Middle New Zealand the reality of HIV. Now, if we look at our media in New Zealand and overseas media, there's another split that we must make when we go the media. The first representations of HIV that we got in New Zealand were from overseas media from CBS News and things like that filtered through our networks. But it was all that was available. And what did we see? We saw, like poor [00:59:30] little Children with AIDS due to the reading at the time, surrounded by company toys and bunnies and hospital looking, wide concerned parents around them and all the rest of them and in some case, ns and gone. And when we saw men with HIV gay men, we saw cabs, figures lying alone, drooling in a bed and referred to as AIDS. And and And we had this AIDS victim all that. So the media is [01:00:00] not unless it's not homogenous. And we have to be careful that we don't love New Zealand media with the overseas version. Because in fact, the New Zealand media has been a shining example of the media overseas on how not to attack gay men. We think of the data they need and ignored. We wouldn't have heard. Much of [01:00:30] it hadn't been for war homes. Paul Homes championed her. He knew what he was doing, and he was pushing a raft force right into the middle of every living room in New Zealand, and he was meeting every living room in New Zealand and the subject was IV. She was the only example that would work to get our agenda. As gay men who were those who were pro, were predominantly being affected into those living rooms because as soon as he had mentioned gave [01:01:00] them of HIV, part of New Zealand would have turned out, not turned out, not not intentionally. Just little little girls. Yeah, takes up the heart strings. So I think we have to be careful before we ascribe very black and white and self serving attitudes in the media. Because often there's a back story that you do not see because if you saw the back story, the story would be different and it would serve our purposes so well, [01:01:30] did that help answer your question? Which, which was exactly what, um John Campbell did with the, um, boy thing. He he he actually knew there was a lot more to the story behind it all. But he did did the story one night, and then I was interviewed the night after, and, um, there was a lot more to that story, but his his motivation that he he told me, was he He thinks that HIV needs to be in the media more [01:02:00] and, um, the media, it's not relevant. It doesn't exist. It doesn't get funding. It doesn't get it doesn't get support it it gets airbrushed out. So yeah. Yeah. So there's positives to that as well. I know now. I worked through this era, right from an age of age as [01:02:30] a producer, director of television, New Zealand and an archivist. I just wanted to say this I managed to do that programme I saw from South was one of the first we heard Don't actually touch the subject. And we we had a, um we had a, um I should know. Um, we had a producer in television New Zealand [01:03:00] named your Mark. Who who suffered one of the first AIDS sufferers in New Zealand. He continued working. It was tragic to see at the time because no one understood he walked around like a zombie, but he could walk into the television studio and still direct the programme. It took a lot of understanding from a lot of people I didn't on suicide in New Zealand. It was tragic. It was hard to get on. But the point [01:03:30] of the programme is not about suicide, but team suicide was about how to support it, how to get the information out there and make people aware. Now I think we're now living in an era where mass media television has now been completely diluted. When we put a programme on it went to the whole of New Zealand. The television audiences are talking, so whatever message you give is not getting across the great mess. The biggest danger we have [01:04:00] at the moment is the social media of Facebook and other medias starting off on a 10 year and I've seen it on Facebook Post. I've done where someone's made a cynical comment and the whole thing has gone off. They're in a totally different direction now. The thing you have to do with the thing is it is the media, it's self reporting. It's the me me and all that sort of thing. So is and you've got to get more and more of that and I hope it's not of a tragic consequence [01:04:30] of some people around who are getting misguided or whatever and labelling people wrongly because I think there's been a lot of positive things with AIDS now, with HIV and all that, I think you're getting quite positive messages out there because a lot of support around and people talking about it. The key thing I would say to anybody in the media now is made up your mind whether you want to tell the whole world about one or what do you want to tell people how to move forward? [01:05:00] In other words, you learned from this, and what about Sometimes you can say no, I don't want to be wrong. It's hard to do sometimes, but you're also very difficult when you get a microphone. Basically, when you face these studies that you not make a comment because the media has turned into that sort of thing. And before we have respect, we asked. We tell by we make people sure these days reports by the standard in my view, have dropped. And it does put [01:05:30] a consequence on people trying to explain the situation that can be made to look at poor. So my advice to anybody these days is think very carefully and don't comment until you're sure you know what the hell is gonna happen? Because you've got to live with it. And I used to be an activist that goes in the out cry over 60 and Peter does the thing on One of the things is we never have certain things coming out of him and the secret, not about this topic. So all I'm saying is the media. The [01:06:00] biggest danger for us these days is not for television media, not the radio and not for newspaper, because they generally have professional standards. It's the social media getting out of out of hand and somehow out of the best you can do is what we've got. Now you've got websites around. Hopefully someone is monitoring what's going on and can be some of the information out. Thanks for Just want to say I think I think you know you. You you're both right in terms of like the [01:06:30] you know, saying the media is all one. However, it's still here. We are in, you know, 2014. The time that we get to mainstream media as a community generally is either when something goes horribly wrong or is a child involved. Now that we get shaped by media, we don't shape the media, The media shapes us. And I think you know, if if we if you look at or we look at the boy at last year, [01:07:00] how many other positive stories are there in the general media about HIV positive people where there's no story where there's no outrage, where there's just actually a role modelling of of good behaviour or or a just a good life? We don't get represented, you know. And I think we've had that argument, you know, as a gay community going back for many, many, many years and we still get outraged or we get outraged when someone gets outraged. There's a lesbian kiss on Shortland Street. You know, we don't actually get the normalisation of HIV [01:07:30] in the community without that normalisation. It's very, very difficult to talk about. It contributes to the isolation, it contributes to the stigma, and so I can take your point that yes, the media were very man at the times when they were choosing these Children to use as our heroes, and, you know, I don't want to take anything away from that, but it can be an end end. It doesn't have to be an either or And I think that is. Our challenge is to actually work out. How do we get our lives, our stories, our voices [01:08:00] normalised in New Zealand so that the stigma disappears and the challenges with that disappear? I think this is one point I would make to that. Um is that normal is not used, Um, that if you put a front a picture on the front cover of Woman's Day magazine. Rachel buys Mil cat dairy. Uh, you've got to sell a certain number of copies. Rachel has breast cancer. [01:08:30] We go walk the scale normal is views. And that's just human nature, not the nature of the media. It's based on human nature. Thanks. And, um, I mean, I could say that I'm guilty of that. Um, I've I've done a lot of Women's Day magazines and other women's magazines, and most of it, the the headline will be AIDS victim or Peter Victim. Or, you know, But then it will get into a story about [01:09:00] how I've moved on with my life. I've had Children. They got HIV negative. You know, all the the positive things that have happened. But you still got the only way to get your attention is if you go straight to that. That what I call, um Oh, it's like having a, um yeah, something that will grab attention. And a lot of I mean sadly. And I've seen it so many times, not just in this country but around the world. People get HIV and they think, Well, I'm gonna get famous now I'm gonna start [01:09:30] doing, you know, documentaries and TV shows and all this stuff, but they haven't got that catch. They haven't got that thing that if they have, if they've got a just a normal old story they got HIV because they had a good night. Exactly. And it's almost and II. I hear it all the time. And it is it's how do you say to someone that you're not extraordinary when when to us you are, But it's It's in that sense in media. It's not extraordinary. And we've seen that so many times with women. Unless [01:10:00] you're a celebrity. Yeah, but I, I do think we need media and and we I mean, it's interesting to hear you say out there that you know, you can say no. I have to admit, we very rarely say no because any opportunity is I said, I, I don't actually say any opportunity is better than none, because sometimes I wish I had said no. Um, but, you know, we get calls like Come up to AIDS Day. Can you provide us [01:10:30] with this? You know, 16 year old beautiful woman who's just been diagnosed as if to order? We can just put somebody on the front page of the newspaper with their story. Um, so it it's it's a kind of a love hate relationship. I mean, I wouldn't even say Hate. It's a very nervous relationship, um, with the media, because you I really understand. Now when when you hear famous people or people on the news saying it was taken out of context, you really begin to understand that that, um that saying, [01:11:00] But we we need media, and it's important for us to learn how to use them to our advantage. Um, which is not an easy task. Um, I'm gonna pass on to Ron to talk a bit about nowadays. What happens with, um with testing and and the support, but I will just, um it does make me laugh now, But I was diagnosed in 1988 and I had [01:11:30] to go and have blood taken, and I had to go back and get my results. And the doctor walked into the, um into the waiting area and looked at me and said, I'm sure you're not surprised, but you are positive. And that was that was it. And he went back to his office and I walked out. Thank goodness it isn't still like that. Yes, I've I've heard of, um, actually, one of my good friends. A lot of you will know, uh, who died several [01:12:00] years ago was Michael Hay. And, um, he was in Rotorua when he got told over the phone from his GP that he had aids. Uh, and, uh, as a consequence of that, he started, um, Bay area, a support service. And, um, I was working for a life link youth line as a phone counsellor, and so together and with other volunteers, we fielded a few calls, and, um, and that which was, you know, really, really good, but [01:12:30] yeah, getting as far as testing goes nowadays. Um both, uh, New Zealand AIDS Foundation and and us. And, um, we do rapid testing. We actually do it from our centres and also out in the community as well. Um, we still do pre and post test counselling. We feel that that is, uh, very important. Um, we get them to, um, fill in a, um, risk assessment form, [01:13:00] and that gives the the person taking the test, um, a level of risk to that particular person. Um, And through the process of the of the testing, um, we'll talk to them about their risk and about their sexual practises, uh, and use it as an opportunity also to educate because there's a lot of people out there that, uh, don't know the risks. Um, so we So we use that as a time to educate, Um, and as [01:13:30] far as, um, you know, going going through the testing. Um, it's a pretty simple way of doing testing. Now it's a screening test. Um, it's a finger prick that we use. Um, and if we do get a positive, then the biggest thing as positive, positive people, we can, you know, talk to them and support them and certainly from from our organisation and and New Zealand AIDS Foundation that, uh, that's [01:14:00] the pro the the primary carers to that person and to make sure they're safe, uh, and kept safe and to, uh, to get the support that they need and to offer the support that they need whether it be through, um, our own organisations or seeking, um, external organisations to help. And, um And so once we do get a positive result, we will, uh, then and certainly in, um, Wellington. I'll [01:14:30] ring, um, James Rice at the back there. And, uh and we'll, uh, you know, facilitate a what we call a western block, um, test, um, which is a confirmatory test. Uh, but the main thing is to make sure that they are safe and that that they Yeah, II, I kept well informed. And and, uh, the biggest thing I think from A from a newly diagnosed, uh, from from from new newly diagnosed person, is they Generally [01:15:00] what happens is, um, they shut down and they everything that you're saying to them they are just thinking about other things. So they're not thinking about, um what you're telling them. So I guess The main thing is just sort of just make sure they're safe. Um, And, uh, and, you know, eventually sort of keep talking to them about, um uh, when when it's appropriate to support them, um, in in whatever they need. [01:15:30] Uh, and and of course, talking to another positive person is a is a big plus. Um, we've had several people that, uh, we have, uh, engaged with and, uh, we offer, um you know, other services. So one on one counselling or group counselling sessions with other positive people. And of course, the journey that a positive person has gone through is very powerful to a newly diagnosed person because you can tell them your story and you can show them that [01:16:00] Hey, you know, you're no longer going to die of this virus. In fact, I think you will back me up, Nigel, that, uh, we had, uh, a specialist come out from Australia and said a a positive person's life expectancy, uh, against a negative person is actually as far as gay men as far as men go, um is greater because we get to go to the doctor once every six months or once once a year, and we get our blood pressure taken and we get our [01:16:30] doctor touch us and, you know, check us all over and, uh, and and do all the normal stuff. Um, whereas men generally don't go to the doctors unless they're absolutely sick. Uh, and something is absolutely wrong with them, So, yeah, that's our, um, our way of doing testing. Thank you. Um, yeah, just in terms of your question [01:17:00] there, Um, I think you know, it's hard to crystal ball gaze. Exactly. But I do think, um, that I hope you don't mind when we hassle about people stopping smoking incessantly and things like that because, um, those things do make a big difference. And and I think, um, some of the day to day things like that, uh, simple things like blood pressure control will make a big difference for people with HIV. And sometimes if they are being attended to rather than neglected, [01:17:30] that will will make a positive difference. Um uh, I think Yeah. So, um, the the the counselling is obviously, um when in the eighties, when there was no effective treatment, You know, there there was quite a lot of consideration about whether to get tested at all. Um, because it came with so much abuse. Um, but now that treatment [01:18:00] is, um, you know, not, uh, perfect, but, uh, but, you know, very effective. Uh, then it it really is important that more people are diagnosed, and And I think, um, so the counselling shouldn't go the other way. You know, you one was describing where there's no counselling at all, but it also it needs to be somewhere balanced so that more testing is done. Because at the moment, uh, still, you know, half of people [01:18:30] who are diagnosed are diagnosed roughly too late. And, you know, we we want there to be earlier diagnosis. And, you know, more extensive diagnosis of people who don't know that they are infected. Hm. Hm. Tell you when I was diagnosed, um, almost two years ago, my [01:19:00] first water pool was the NZNZ area, because that's the only place I knew. Um, and then I moved on to the body. Positive go, which has been both have been very helpful to me to even get as far as I have today. I think one of the challenges that we have here in New Zealand is that although we offer really [01:19:30] good services within the organisations here, we're not universal. We're not everywhere And so the majority of diagnoses that actually come from for in New Zealand for people with HIV positive do not come through any of the organisations represented here. Most of them come through sexual health clinics for GPS, and it really relies on those people and their at their primary interface to actually try and engage these people with, um positive services. Now we are limited by capacity. [01:20:00] I mean, New Zealand AIDS Foundation has really only got offices in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch. We've got contract councils all over the country, um, body positive, similar, you know, with only Auckland and Wellington. But a lot of people are not actually necessarily seeing service in the areas or recognising service in the areas. And I think that's one of the challenges that we have to have to face up to. So when people are getting diagnosed, even though they might want to talk to somebody, they don't necessarily get put in the right place. And I think there's a job for all of us to do to make sure [01:20:30] that with primary primary health and with the GPS and also with, um, the sexual health clinics around the country that we actually get better at being able to connect with those people who are newly diagnosed to offer them support and some some form of contact at that time. Yeah, I'd really like to, um, endorse that as well. I mean, for me personally, I think it was that, um, belonging to a support network and belonging. Going to counselling was something that really helped me through those early years. Um, [01:21:00] and subsequently I've ended up working in an organisation that offers that support. And what I do find nowadays in particular is because because we're only one small organisation that with our focus, is on women and families. And we're based in Auckland. And there's roughly 500 women in New Zealand living with HIV, and they're scattered all over the country. And so it's really hard to have access or to get those women to have access. You know, if you're living [01:21:30] in in I don't know, core. Um, actually, it's not. It's not a good example because we have one of our She's very active down there. But, you know, some small little, you know, um, rural community. Um even even though we have an 0 800 phone number so that people can call us at any time, it still feels very distant for that person, you know, it's a phone call. It's somebody at the end of the phone. I mean, for some people, it's something. But for a lot of people, it's like, Oh, well, I'll just get on with it. And [01:22:00] and I think in this day and age that things have changed because of the medications. And even though we provide a lot of services in Auckland, we find that a lot of our members don't actually take them up because they're out working now and they're out living their lives. And really, what we're seeing is that people want to be part of an organisation, but only when they need it. So you know, it's it's quite interesting, So to be able to sustain like there's no point. There's no way that we could even afford to have an office in Wellington [01:22:30] or in Christchurch or anywhere else. Um, there isn't the need for it. We couldn't afford it. Um So it's quite difficult to to reach, um, everyone. And it's difficult in, Um, I suppose, um, for our organisation, we we're sort of based, semi rural, and I do a lot of travelling. I do a lot of driving around the country, and the the people that we're supporting are [01:23:00] living in very, very isolated rural areas. Um, most of them, hardly anyone knows their status. And what enables us to actually do this is if you've heard it press in the press in free media. It is because of, um, water that we're able to actually go and meet with these people. Sometimes we get to meet with their Sometimes it's just them. Um, we're always referring them to in a body positive and positive [01:23:30] women. And, you know, if they successfully do go through to those support services, it's a It's a, uh what do you call it? A goal for us. Um, but it doesn't happen all the time. And and I'd like to say that you know those those Maori living with HIV in isolation, they really take isolation to the extreme, where, um, the fear of being associated with an organisation is huge. Even to get me and me half the time I get to them [01:24:00] through someone who knows someone and and it's a phone call or a text message and I'll meet them at some bar or shady little town somewhere. And, you know, they don't want me to go to their house yet. And I really have to be. I have to be, um, aware of the environment that I'm going into and who I'm talking to and speaking their language. You know, I can't go in there and start talking UN aids. You know, I'm gonna come right down to their ground level and and talk and find out what's happening for them [01:24:30] at that. What's what's the biggest need for them? And, uh, last year I was actually getting quite nervous because a lot of them are coming forward, not wanting to have treatment and and was really as part of their water process is actually, you know, looking after their well-being. Is that how do you get people onto treatment? And I'd like to say out of, um, 21 water that we've done in the last 18 months. All of them are on medication now, and I'd say easily. 50% of them [01:25:00] went before and and that that, to me is just one at a time is the only way that we can do it. And it's really hard because you have all the psychological psychosocial issues, all the, um, situations like, um, one particular. She lived with eight family members. Taking a handful of pills, one at one time, once a day wasn't just an easy thing to do because everyone would see her doing it. [01:25:30] Any questions from the floor? Jim? Just simply the question of isolation. Is it? Is it another way of saying people are poor as well? I find it the What was it the the median income in New Zealand is 24,000. I think it wasn't inequality that inequality a New Zealand, uh, issued question. Um, it seems I. I spent [01:26:00] a lot of my time looking or thinking about that. The base. Some of the basic economic questions. Um, it doesn't seem to be very happy in those terms. And when people have money in their pockets and they have work and these actors less at risk or they're not working part time, the whole sort of economic tone of the country. Um, is that is that a lot of the times it impacts on travel getting to their specialist, But they they don't [01:26:30] want to go to a specialist If they if it's 23 or four hours away. Um, even though some of the like the DH BS do reimburse travel, it's after the fact. So then a lot of times we've actually given out money to in the front so that they could actually get to the appointments. So, yes, the economics is a huge thing. Um, the I don't quote me on exact I. I haven't seen the latest census data, but, um, for a Maori and, um, a median average income from a Maori [01:27:00] is around 15,000 a year. So you get is a whole different level again. And a lot of our are are living in, um, communal situations where you know, these Mom, Dad, brother, sister, all sharing a very small space. And and that brings up other issues around, um, their safety. Uh, what else can I talk about? There jobs and things like sickness, benefits. They've gone and applied for sickness, benefits from wins, and they've had stigma, discrimination in wins [01:27:30] offices. Um, because instantly, if you disclose your status, you must be gay, a drug user or a prostitute. And it might not be any of those things, but that's the the judgement that's put on you or a slut. Um, imagine if you are all of those things. Yes, exactly. Good on you. But again, again, it sort of it. It impacts even on them wanting to disclose at at at office? [01:28:00] Um, yeah. I think isolation, definitely you're talking about definitely is an issue for some people. Particularly, um, some of the immigrants you know who are tested through immigration testing. Um, uh, I think the, um, income, you know, is definitely a factor. There was the futures to study a few years ago. It hasn't been repeated for quite a while, but, um um, but yeah, I think the, um, people's income is often a factor in access [01:28:30] to primary care. You know, body positive has been doing a lot of work around that, um, we we have a a social worker part time, uh, who helps with things like housing and social work issues. Uh, but that's those are definitely, um, practical issues. Um, there are some, um uh, migrant people who are very isolated. Really? Just come to see the doctor. Um and it's quite it would be quite nice to [01:29:00] connect them with support organisations more actually, but, um kind of, um, getting them over that hurdle is is sometimes a challenge. Um and so, you know, we'd be pleased to be any clues about how to do that better. Um, obviously, people like James there have a great deal of experience and and here and support issues too. I've got 10 minutes left to go, and I think I think we might sort of think about [01:29:30] the future. One of the things that I've been, uh, I'm aware of is that we talk about stigma and the word aids seems to be absolutely steeped with stigma and and one of the things I've probably had to deal with more, uh, when I've been out and about is actually explaining to people the difference between HIV and AIDS. Actually, people don't really know. Um it was really funny. I hope [01:30:00] you don't mind, Gareth, but, um, Gareth and I were talking last Thursday and it's it's really simple, but actually surprise Gath a little bit that actually I had a AIDS diagnosis back in 98. And then by 1999 I was not. I didn't have an AIDS diagnosis, and actually, people still get very confused around HIV and a I DS and and actually [01:30:30] in the West, we're almost entering a post AIDS era. Yes, we are getting people who are presenting with AIDS, but they shouldn't be. They should have been tested before, and they shouldn't be getting to that point. The Terrence Higgins Trust have actually dropped the words a I DS They don't use it anymore. They use the word they they have HIV and progressive HIV. So you're HIV positive. And if you do get really sick, then they'll use the term progressive [01:31:00] HIV. Part of that was to deal with the stigma that that that aids the word aids. It's dealing with that stigma and so they don't use use it anymore. And the argument is that really people in the West um, I have to say, because it's not global, but really, um, in the West, people actually really die of an AIDS related illness. They might die of, uh uh there might be a complication around HIV. Um, [01:31:30] but actually, it's it's It's not often that you're gonna get, um, people dying of AIDS. So I think that's, um, thoughts from the panel on on on terminology. Do you think we should be dropping age? Do you think we should be more clear around? What's the difference between HIV and A I DS, um Do you also have that experience of people mixing the two up quite regularly? I mean, I could [01:32:00] quite often get you know, you're an AIDS person, and it's like, actually, I'm not I'm HIV positive. I don't have AIDS. So, um yes, Excellent. At the end, Nigel, It certainly is that AIDS isn't the predominant issue anymore. Um, it it won't be gone, but, um, but it really when it was the eighties and the early nineties, when it was the predominant issue. You know, the issue is more about, um, [01:32:30] about other health care, um, support and some of the other issues that you've talked about. So, um, in that sense, it makes sense to not talk about AIDS as much or to talk about us being in a different era. Um, where it's not not the prime issue anymore. Mhm. I'm I'm gonna put on two hats. My first hat is, um, from [01:33:00] an indigenous world view. Um, we are still rating quite highly in the AIDS being diagnosed at AIDS stage, Um, Maori, Pacific, and and and indigenous. I'm talking about West western world. Um, I think a lot of the times is again around health access to, um, testing health disparities. Not really knowing what illnesses are and and and and being in situations where there aren't doctors that can say, Oh, that might be an AIDS related [01:33:30] illness or not. You know, those sorts of things can happen. That's one thing. Also, um, we're seeing a lot, not just in New Zealand, but in Australia and Canada. Um, we're seeing a lot of, uh, indigenous people just choosing, um, to have aids to actually not take medication to, actually. Um, like I said before, um, let it go. Its gauntlet, I suppose. And some of them, um, I have a really good friend, an aboriginal friend who is quite proud to [01:34:00] say that she's got AIDS and that she's never actually got a CD four above the level that takes her out of an AIDS diagnosis. So there's there's kind of there's a way of claiming it and making it a positive thing as well. Um, I don't think we're ready to to eliminate it yet, and and I mean, it would be nice to think so in a New Zealand context. But we have an epidemic in the Pacific Islands. We have numbers going up in Australia. Um, I. I don't think we're at that stage where we [01:34:30] can say it's over yet. They haven't got the cure yet. Um, so I I'd like to be hopeful. Um, however, on a personal level, I always say I'm HIV positive and and educate on what a IS is. I've never had an AIDS related illness. I've never been anywhere near the AIDS numbers to to have AIDS. Um, but I do get a lot of how can two HIV positive people have HIV negative Children, You know that? That's the kind of questions I get. [01:35:00] They they people really can't understand how that medically biologically happens. So I mean, I use it as an example to explain it. Yeah, I just think just because something doesn't sound nice, you shouldn't get rid of it. I mean, it doesn't make it go away. It's still there. And I think globally, um, AIDS is there. There's thousands millions of people dying every you know, every year with AIDS related illness. [01:35:30] It's still there. So I, I think it would be, um, inappropriate to get rid of the word. Um, I guess, you know, just because you don't like the connotations, I think it's better to educate. And I think we would be looking to do that. And I guess looking to the future I mean, for the last three years, I've actually worked as the, um, Asia Pacific NGO representative to the on the UN AIDS board, and they're now doing their, [01:36:00] you know, future plans and looking at 2020. I mean, they're looking at talking now that, um, there won't be a UN AIDS because HIV will become another ST I and will be incorporated into general health and general sexual health. And it won't be a standalone um, So you know the fact that people are not dying and you know, in the future, the more people that get access to medications, people won't be dying, and we won't be seeing so many people. Um, with AIDS, [01:36:30] I think it will reduce. Um And I think we will see quite a different picture in the next 20 years. Um, some goods, you know, that that's that's good to that. Um, but I also personally, I guess, feel that, um HIV is quite different to a lot of the other STIs. And I do feel that it needs a little bit more attention than than it needs to be a stand alone. That's my opinion. Which means nothing. [01:37:00] Yeah, personally, I, I am relatively ambivalent with someone. Thinks I have AIDS or someone thinks I have HIV. I don't care. I don't want to be one of those people that says I'm gay. Yes, I have HIV, but I don't have a IS. Somehow having HIV is better than not having AIDS. It's part of that stigma. It's part of that double labelling. And I would prefer that it's just one word, actually, Um, you know, a funny story. I had a friend of mine I was meeting for for lunch the other week and [01:37:30] she text me to say she's got cancer. She text me to say I'm sorry I'm running late. I've got cancer. And I said, Well, I've got AIDS. I've still made it on time, you know, um, I, I think I think we've got to be a little bit not too precious about the language. I think the points are really well made. That that that it doesn't really matter where you are on the continuum of this virus. We have this virus that is going to affect our lives one way or the other. I don't really care where it crosses one definition into another, and it will vary from country to country. I mean, we're [01:38:00] already you know, whether whether the CD four count is 201 104 105 100 it really doesn't matter. You know, in a westernised world, we're probably heading towards the point where, um you know, within time the the the treatment diagnosis will in terms of the access to treatment. If we decided between the clinician and the patient, it won't actually be decided by an arbitrary number that's picked out the year that someone else decides. I So I would rather there was just one word for it, because we are all in the same boat. And yeah, so [01:38:30] that's where I sit on it. So yeah. I. I would just like to see HIV, to be honest. Um, just from the point of view that AIDS was, um, an old term Well, it's I mean, I hear what the panel is saying about overseas and in the Pacific and that, but in New Zealand, it's it's, uh, you know, it's HIV that is is happening, uh, predominantly, [01:39:00] Um, and AIDS, to me is is an old an old thing. Um uh, and I just sort of feel that, um when people call me Oh, you've got AIDS or you've got, um HIV I. I feel that HIV is a more nicer word, You know that because it because it's true, it's true. Whereas I don't have aids. Um, [01:39:30] and that's maybe just that. That's just my feeling. Anyway, that's, um what I sort of feel I just I just, um Yeah, age to me is is a long time ago. Um, yeah, yeah, that's me. I have a tendency to agree with Jane. Um, I've probably been writing about [01:40:00] HIV and along with been any journalist in New Zealand. Now I think and practically on a weekly basis. And in the last few years I've had to struggle with how I how I write up HIV because I had two or three different audiences and we had two different audiences here. We have people with HIV and we have people without HIV and the situation is different from both. Uh, I've been taken to task [01:40:30] by people with HIV for making HIV up to be a bad thing. And it generally goes along the lines of How do you add, uh, a negative connotation to HIV when I'm trying to make give myself positive feelings and reinforce my sense of self-worth and the fact that I have overcome the HIV and I'm living with HIV? But I'm a well relative person, blah, blah, blah, and my reaction is generally it's a shame we've got HIV, [01:41:00] but you do have resources to support you. Mostly, we ignore that we finesse the way out of out of isolation and and and and and and scattered population. But in general you have medics who are available to help you come to terms with the mechanics of what's happening with you. There is supportive information available. People without HIV are the ones in our gay community who are in danger [01:41:30] of getting it. And so we have to make it relevant. And that underscores every story that I write. So then I have to say, How do I make this relevant? How do I make this story into a reminder to people who don't yet have HIV, that it's not a good thing to get, And you have to avoid this if you possibly can, and we minimise to take the emotion and take the the difficulty out of HIV if we start treating it as herbs, [01:42:00] which is also untreatable. But nobody seems to worry that he is very much in, and I put cream carry on I if we minimise HIV just because it's, uh because AIDS is old fashioned or because it's not quite technically correct anymore or because it's not quite so relevant. We take away one of the most potent words we have on grabbing people by the walls and saying [01:42:30] HIV could affect you really badly, and I know it's not quite true, but we haven't got many other things that are our arsenal as writers to hit the button on this one. And if we just move everything out IV, HIV we lose the message and then we start losing the battle against it. We succumb to a thing that says as well, because it's not such a big problem. We just medicate it. [01:43:00] Well, that's just life. And everybody ends up with HIV and everybody ends up medicated. You know, governments will eventually be able to find all the money to do that and and we'll all get on with it. And I think it's a very dangerous thing to do until we've got an alternative. I wish there was an alternative. I can can't find it fair. Is there anyone else that wants to just hang up a quick before you up? And I [01:43:30] is. I used it. I'd like to see, um, at some point, um, it become HIV become more mainstream, and I like the idea of it. Um I love I love the term IV positive cancer. Um, I've been with cancer for years, changing my technology from a patient or victim to cancer. Survivor has done a hell [01:44:00] of a lot for me personally, emotionally. And look, you you saying the same things you you get withdrawn. You you don't talk about things. You, um What I would hate to see, uh, in any near future is the attention that HIV and Aid gets and the, um, writers to actually utilise it and to still have the attention, Gran. [01:44:30] Oh, those those very small words. But they still gonna do a hell of a lot to look someone into that article to read more. Um, I've learned a hell of a lot in the last couple of years about, um HIV aids STIs, um, and everything else to to do with, um, sexual health. And I'm one of these people that thought HIV and AIDS was the same thing. Um, [01:45:00] I'm not lying. Not even though I was, you know, the the I seem to have missed a whole portion of the media at some point in my life, quite possibly when I was little and not paying attention to the rest of the world. Um, but I think it if the UN aids are looking at 2020 or, you know, in the future at some point of mainstream things, Yeah, that would be that would be good. That gives us a safe [01:45:30] environment, but I think we better get it right before we made it mainstream and stuff. OK, I think, um, it's gone 8. 30. Um, we'll just go back to the panel, and then we'll wrap it up. Yeah, I think, um, it it's trying to It's trying to have a sort of a balance [01:46:00] between, um, um, positive view of things as you're describing and also and but not minimising things either. I think, um, as much as we do, What are we that you know? There are, um, health concerns around risks to do with heart disease and cancer and other health problems, which appear to be, um, which have a greater increased, um, risk. Um, and even though people [01:46:30] talk about it, you know, being a, you know, a chronic, manageable condition, Um, which compared to other things like diabetes, you know, those are significant health problems as well. So and plus having to come and see doctors all the time. And they have blood tests. And, um uh, and, um, uh, the other aspects the subtle, you know, psychological effects of being positive that, um, that it's, [01:47:00] uh it's important not to minimise. And, you know, I think the challenges around prevention and having to keep up the efforts there, you know, are gonna clearly be important, you know, combining all the measures that are known to be helpful. So, um yeah, so I think it's important to, um to not lose sight of the importance of prevention as well as, um, trying to put a positive face on on [01:47:30] on the care of people just quickly. Um, just just, um with what Jay was saying as well. I think I'm gonna plug Public Speakers Bureau here, the Public Speakers Bureau. For people living with HIV, there is a within the training. There's a lot on how to actually navigate that by putting a positive swing on it, but also, um, putting a reality swing on it. You know, the reality is, we do to take really strong medication every day. If we miss that [01:48:00] and we bugger it up, we've got to start another regime, you know? So there's those reality stories around the medication that we have. Um I have diabetes, high blood pressure. I've got all those other, you know, added stuff that Doctor Nigel is talking about. But also too, um, I'd like to say that on a global level Um, there's a There's a real strong movement of people living with HIV and and I. I say I am a person living with HIV and I know that there's 30 million of [01:48:30] us and and quite across the world as far as advocacy and activism. You know, there's some really strong gay men activists out there doing such amazing things and things like the World AIDS Conference, which is in Melbourne this year in July, and we and we have our indigenous pre conference, which is in Sydney. It's in those places I've been on the last two, in International AIDS Conference organising committees. What I've seen there is the most the strength [01:49:00] of the people living with HIV, really calling the shots at that level and and the PC B that that Jane has been on, you know, the the we should be proud to be people living with HIV. That's how I feel, Um, in New Zealand, Yes, you know, there there's we're limited because we're so far away from the world, but the social media that the Internet, all those things, bring the world so much closer I'm talking to international countries every single [01:49:30] day on Skype every day. And there's a chance there for all of us living with HIV to be part of a huge community of really strong, positive people living with HIV. So yeah, I don't really know how to finish it up. I don't think it can be finished. There's no end. Really? No. I mean, there's still a lot of work to do. I mean, I do find, um in my role as a coordinator for for positive women that I wear. I talk [01:50:00] two different talks to whoever my audience is. So as a newly diagnosed positive woman comes in, you talk about all the positives to to, you know, make her feel better and to make her feel hopeful. And and and then when you're speaking to people on the prevention side, you bring up all the things that was was saying and one of the things I often say, especially when talking to to school Children is like, just imagine, at 16 you were diagnosed with HIV and then you have to tell your friends [01:50:30] and then later on, when you meet your girlfriend or your boyfriend, you have to tell them. And you know there might be rejection there and, you know, then you have to go on to having Children, and that can't always be done naturally. And then you have Children, and then you have to tell your Children and you have to go on to medications and there's side effects from the medication. So it's and there's there's stigma, right? And so it it is quite different to other STIs, and it's still, um, it's not a pleasant thing to live with, and you [01:51:00] wouldn't want anyone to have it. So it's about balancing balancing that, and I think, yeah, I think we just have to keep on keeping on. Just keep on, Keep on. And as far as the Positive Speakers Bureau, I just, um, positive Women managers is on behalf of all of the, um, the support network. So it's belongs to all of us. It's just that it's easier for one organisation to manage it, and and so we run groups every two twice [01:51:30] a year to to train people who are living with HIV, how to how to go about speaking publicly, and then we really push to try and get into schools and get into hospitals and get into conferences and get those people to go out and talk about being positive and and what it's like. And so it's. And I think that's what we have to keep doing. We have to keep educating education. Is is the biggest thing, and we have to keep pushing for that. And I'd like to see HIV tagged onto the STISTIS [01:52:00] and HIV. This is this N HIV just so that it can be in everybody's conscious a little bit more. That's me. I think there'll always be a tension between me as an individual wanting to live a happy, positive, engaged reward in life and me also not wanting anyone else to catch this virus. And if the price of me helping someone else not get that [01:52:30] virus is that my life is a little less good or a little more awkward, then that's the price I'm prepared to pay. It's really easy to sit back and say, Well, HIV isn't what it was or AIDS isn't what it was because it's kind of isn't that that's the true, isn't it? In this world, anyone but the reality is we don't want it. We don't want diarrhoea all the time. We don't want to be vomiting. We don't want to have the headaches. We don't want to have the fatigue, [01:53:00] you know, with the best medication in the world. That is what we live with. And, you know, I will put myself out there and be a little uncomfortable to stop someone from feeling that living with HIV is a comfortable experience. It isn't. And I think we have to come back to that point. And there's always going to be that tension between making people with HIV feel valued and part of the community and alive and [01:53:30] help them and resource them all that stuff. But we've got to stop people getting this virus. Thanks, sir. I think, uh, everyone has said what I want to say. So I'm gonna use this as a bit of a, um uh, a plug for our candlelight memorial service. Uh, on Sunday, the 18th at, uh, papa museum. We've got, um, a number of guest speakers, politicians, uh, two choirs, performers, Uh, at 2. 30 on Sunday, the [01:54:00] 18th. So do come along. If you if you can, it'll be a wonderful, wonderful night. And then afterwards a rush bar are putting on a tribute, Uh, candlelight tribute, uh, straight after at about 5 p.m. um, with, uh, a charity auction and nibbles and drinks and party time to celebrate those that have gone, which is Thank you, everyone. Thank you for coming along. Thank you. And thanks to the panel, it's been really [01:54:30] good. And it's great that we're having discussions like this and let's hope they carry on and they don't have to be in this format. Have them at your dinner parties and have these discussions around the table and have coffee. And it's, um it ain't going away. You're absolutely right. We're gonna have to live with HIV and a IS for a for the unforeseeable future. And, um, we need to be talking and and preventing the spread of it. Thanks, everyone. [01:55:00] Cheers.
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