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So I'm I'm Hamish and I. I live in Wellington now, but I was born in Masterton in 1962. So, um, born in the in the and, um, lived there till I was about 10 with a mad family of six Children and a mom and dad, of course. And, um Then when I was 10, we moved up into the in the back box of Gisborne. So it was kind of, um And when I was in master and dad [00:00:30] was a stock agent, So it was. Although we lived in a town, it was a fairly rural upbringing. And I got a great sense of, um, where the food comes from. And, um, how important it all was. Really? Um, youngest of six as well. Um, being the youngest I a lot of time on my own on a sheep station. So I developed a, uh, a a, um a fascination of the animals. And I love the animals and kind of hang out with the dogs and the horses and spent many, [00:01:00] many, many hours just, um, exploring the, um, the sheep station on on a horse on my own. Yeah, it's quite amazing when I reflect back. I went back there recently, um, a couple of weeks ago and had a look, and it really was an idyllic way to be brought up in that regard. Around the home. It was a little bit different, but, um, on the sheep station, it was great. What do you mean? Around the home? How was it? Different? Oh, goodness. What would I say? What would I say? That would be appropriate to say Both My parents have passed now, so I don't feel [00:01:30] so duty bound to to not speak about it, Which is kind of interesting, because I'm developing a whole new philtre. Dad just went last year and mum went in 2011 just before the art games. Actually. So, um, yeah, I would say it was a, um it was quite an interesting It wasn't. It wasn't a happy household, shall we say? And there was lots of chemicals involved in terms of, um, alcohol, lots and lots of alcohol involved. And, um, so as a kid, it was, um [00:02:00] I wouldn't say it was a an idyllic environment to be brought up. And and also, when I was at school, I didn't um, I seem to have missed out on the ability to read and, um, and write particularly well, so when I was, um, in in school at later years, it became harder and harder. And then, of course, when they found that I was gay, it became even harder. So I kind of, um I wasn't a very [00:02:30] I was a hard working student, but I didn't really get very good results because I just wasn't very, um, academic. Yeah, I found it really hard at school. Apart from being a fag, Um, I found it really hard. I just I found out years ago that, um when I went to work for the government that I had a, um that I'd never really learned how to read properly. And I never learned how to group the words. And I wasn't, um, unintelligent. And I wasn't dyslexic or anything. I just because I was just trying to stay alive, [00:03:00] I didn't really learn how to read and write properly. It was a bit of a, um, a mess. And when I go back and look at my school reports the first year, they were just loving me because I was personable and friendly and everything else. But then the second year that, um, rubber had hit the road because they'd realised that I didn't have a clue what was going on in the classroom, and then they'd try and help me. And then I'd move to another school because I kept we kept, um, yeah, it didn't work me in school. And, [00:03:30] yeah, so was the bullying involved. And you're talking about being called a, you know, gay affair and stuff. Oh, God. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, not not at, um, primary. I was a kid, so I think it was 100 and 20 kids, and there was 13 kids, so there was lots of bullying involved. The reverse racism is alive and well in New Zealand. You know, you get the minority was the kids, and we got it every day. We were white maggots, and we were It was really awful. And then, um, [00:04:00] we moved to, and then they sent me to Dan High School, where I, um, first learned about sex because I had no idea what anything was about before that. And, um, Danny high school was kind of idyllic in a way because I was other gay kids in the boarding part and we experimented, and it was kind of a a pleasant experience in lots of ways. Hm, Yeah, most ways, shall we say. And then there was because there was lots of, [00:04:30] um, kids that were just trying to get off, and they would just use the gay kids for whatever they wanted. So it wasn't It wasn't so attractive. But anyway, then I moved to Gisborne and at Gibson Boys High School, there was, um It was hideous. Yeah, I was assaulted in the rectory, in the boarding school, and then the kids who had done it. And they told everyone at the school that I had grabbed hold of them and tried to, um, go down on them. So I got called Gobbler and I got called Mary, and I got called [00:05:00] faggot and all the rest of it. Oh, my God. It was horrible. And basically, for the next three years, I just got hassled to on my way to every classroom. It was a nightmare. So my ability to learn was kind of, um uh was Oh, I found it really difficult. I just had to stay alive. I just wanted to stay alive. You know, I just knew that I had to get through, but I found it really, really challenging. Um, and I didn't learn very well. Yeah. So how did you cope? [00:05:30] I think I developed an evil tongue. Well, I punched out one of the because I had big brothers, so I knew how to defend myself physically. But I knew that if they all had a go that I wouldn't be able to protect myself physically. And I knew that, um, if they started punching me out, that I'd be done for. And I didn't want them to know that I was actually terrified of them all, because on me, they were terrifying. And because they kept coming at me all the time, every day, every class, like if I had to walk down [00:06:00] the corridor every every class, they would be at me God. And, um, I didn't want them to know that I was terrified, so I had to be to not show any feelings or anything. And then I, um, would dress them down and give him a pedigree. Verbally. But there was one guy one day he hit me on the, um I used to wear glasses and he hit me on the ear and, um, it really, really hurt. So I just waited outside the classroom. His name was Howard, [00:06:30] and he was quite a big guy, and I wasn't very big, and I was quite Fay, and I just smacked him right between the eyes, and he just went straight down. And that kind of said to everyone that I was a little bit psycho and to leave me alone physically. So no one really ever touched me physically, which was just great, because I couldn't. I couldn't see how I could protect myself. So I've got I developed an evil tongue, which meant then that I didn't really develop healthy ways of, uh, talking to people, and [00:07:00] I kind of just I would find out who the scariest person in any room that I went to was, and I'd kind of annihilate them. I just, um I'll just go them. Really. I was my first line of defence was attack, so it made me quite isolated and alone in lots of ways. And, um, the gay kids, any gay kids that were at the school. Not that we, um not that I really identified any of them, because I I was just trying to stay alive. I really had no idea. I knew that. I, [00:07:30] um that everyone said I was gay, but for me and I and I kind of knew that I was gay. But in some ways, I didn't really have the choice. I didn't really have the opportunity to make up my mind and have a coming out process or anything else till later on, when I kind of developed the ability to understand what it was all about. I just knew that, um I ended up having sex with guys, and I didn't really know why. Yeah, it was strange. So did you have any, like, internal issues [00:08:00] with, um, yeah, having sex with guys? I mean, did you feel fine after it? Or did you? I mean, did you were you ever conflicted by? That's a really good question. I think the thing was about that was that I was so it was so mechanical. Um, because it's stuff that had happened earlier on in my life. And when I was before I was 10, that, um in terms of, um, other sexual abuse that I I kind of had learned [00:08:30] to shut down. So I like mental the sexual experience by just shutting down and, um, just kind of, um, not being there. But I knew that it was what people liked from me. And because I was in inherently a people pleaser, I didn't really have many other talents to go by. I was just And, um, that was kind of it. It was My only point of reference was that, um was that guys like to have sex with me, and I didn't [00:09:00] really have any. God, that sounds awful, But it was kind of like that's what it was like. You know, I just had, um I had no no other understanding or value. I found it really difficult to learn. I wasn't very bright. I was good at, um, hosting and being friendly and looking after people and socialising. But, um, as long as I was safe, But in terms of that other stuff, I was hopeless. Yeah, I didn't, um I didn't find the sexual [00:09:30] experience is very good. And then I ended up having I started drinking, and I was working because mom and dad didn't have very much money. So they after the one year at the boarding school at Gisborne, they said, Could I, um, go private boarding. So I went private boarding, but they had made it quite clear that I was costing them a lot of money. So I thought I'd better try and earn some of my own. So I got a job working at a catering firm, and, um, [00:10:00] part of the culture of the place was that everyone got trashed and I started drinking. And I remember waking up one morning and, um, my boss, the owner of a place he was, um, having anal sex with me. So it was pretty horrific. So I passed out drunk, and that was what I woke up to. So, um, it kind of reiterated the whole experience of, you know, that I really wasn't anything other than a toy. I remember him saying to me the next morning [00:10:30] that he says if you tell anyone about this and I'm gonna go to jail for a very long time And so I never told anyone about it until I went to rehab. Yeah. You speak with such um, honesty and frankness. Is that part of rehab? Yeah, it is. Really? Yeah. I think, um, I've been through a process a couple of times. Like when I was 26 and I went to rehab. Um, [00:11:00] Rudy, Rudy head. He was, um he has was diagnosed as being HIV positive. So Rudy was positive, and then John and I, John was his partner. John and I went and got our tests separately, but on the same day at different places kind of thing. God, that's how he did that in Auckland in those days. But anyway, we did it, and, um, we went and picked up. I think I went to the doctor and got got it. Anyway, we went to pick up our results, [00:11:30] and his came back positive. And Rudy was in rehab at the time, and mine came back negative. And then when Rudy came home, John went off to rehab, and Rudy kind of sat me down and says, right, What are you gonna do? Are you gonna wait until you get the virus as well? Or are you gonna sort your shit out now? He was quite confronting, but he was quite loving as well. And he sort of said to me, You know, um, you're gonna sort your shit out. So he basically impact me after rehab [00:12:00] and it would change my life. You know, It saved my life because John and Rudy both died by 19. Said it was 1988. February 1988. I went to rehab. It was sort of the end of 87. The crash had happened. And that was when Rudy was, um, had gone to rehab and then 88 February. Um, I can't remember. February might have been about 22nd. I went to rehab and got out the 15th of April in 1988. [00:12:30] Yeah, and went home to Auckland. But everyone was unwell, and David was looking at getting into rehab as well. He was fabulous. We we we just still had so much fun. We were We were kind of living on the edge in lots of ways because we were all, um uh fairly, um, shit. Faced a lot of the time before we got clean, and I don't think we had very good skills and how to love. We were just kind of parties and, [00:13:00] um trying to do the best we could with the life we had. But then when I got clean, I saw that there was other ways for me to live, and it got got, um, very different. So to answer the question, yeah, I did. I kind of have learned that, um my level of self honesty, um, is imperative to me being able to live with myself. I don't want to, um I don't want to end up, um, conning myself about myself, and I don't want to live beyond what I'm capable [00:13:30] of. So I found it useful for me, to be honest, so I had to go back and sort out the demons to unpack the box. So after rehab, where I started to unpack the demons and then last year, um, in 2000 and, um, 14, sort of January 2014, I fell in love with someone, and, um and it was kind of reciprocated then it wasn't possible for various reasons, um, [00:14:00] and I kind of completely came undone. I hadn't fallen in love for years, and, um, I came undone. And then I had to look at everything all over again and it was horrible. So I thought right so that I took last year. I didn't work very much, and I just kind of took the year to, um, go back and let's go back and do the bits that I didn't do last time. So I did everything this time. So I guess that's why it's a little bit, um, it's even more so, uh, front of mind [00:14:30] because I've done so much more work on it. Can you paint a picture for me of what it was like as a as a young gay man in New Zealand in the early 19 eighties, late 19 seventies, early 19 eighties, as we kind of moved towards, um, when HIV aids was was coming onto the scene. So thinking back into the eighties. So I left school in 1979 was in my last year at school, and I was 17 and moved to Wellington [00:15:00] and I. I knew that, um, the school experience had been hideous, but I knew that I had to get university entrance. And, um so I remember saying to my teacher, um, that he had tried it on, um, he was kind of playing off his bits and talking to me. And I just told him that I was out of there because I'd I'd kind of got enough sense of, um, what it was like, um, in terms of I was sick to death of being someone else's play toy, and I knew what he [00:15:30] was up to, and I just said, No, I'm out of here And it was Friday and I had to catch the bus to go back to bay, to go home, to sort out the parents for the weekend and try and cut the hedges and mow the lawns and make everything look all right from the outside because it really was such a horror horror show inside anyway. Then the sixth form came along and I was failing dismally. I was finding it so difficult. And, um, I have said to him that, um, I wasn't going to leave school without getting university [00:16:00] entrance and that we, um if I had to come back next year, that my life, his life was going to be miserable, and that was kind of how I pitched it in terms of blackmailing him. But, um, essentially, I was desperate and I I just knew that I had to pass university entrance, and I knew that he had the ability to make sure that it would happen. And I didn't have the skills or the ability to pass it myself. So I, um I kind of made it [00:16:30] quite clear to him that if I had to come back the next year, that his life was going to be a nightmare, as mine had been for the last three years. So, um, it was on the back of it that I got university entrance and I remember smoking my first joint, and it was just fabulous, you know? Everyone went away, Everyone went away. Alcohol was pretty hideous because I got drunk so easily. I wasn't very big, and I kind [00:17:00] of I just got trashed really fast. And after the experience with my boss, I wasn't keen on doing that too often. Whereas if I got stoned, I felt like I still had a few of my faculties and could try and maybe keep myself safe. Maybe I say I wasn't very good at that either, but anyway, um so I went on a train and moved to Wellington at 17 and I didn't like gay kids. I didn't know what gay kids did. You were either a hairdresser or a cook. I thought [00:17:30] because it was in Gisborne, that was all people. I saw their hairdressers were gay or the cooks were And I thought I didn't want to be a hairdresser. I didn't Really I didn't know what a hairdresser he did, but I didn't want to be a hairdresser. And I thought I could be a cock. God, I just really had no idea. I really had no idea. As a kid growing up anyway, I came to Wellington. I arrived here on 23rd of February 19 [00:18:00] 80 I've been working on a sheep station. I had $300 from working on a sheep station up and out from Bay and ended up, um Flatting These two dental nurses, Julie and Bev, who were just fabulous, you know, they were so cool to me. Bev wanted me to move because she thought I was such a lost wife. And I needed someone to look after me. Julie was I think she was a bit terrified because I was just so, um uh, [00:18:30] a little bit out there. I was. Yeah. Anyways, um, they were really good to me. And, um, I started trying to find a job, so I just went door knocking. Every day I went to the same hotels. There was five hotels I'd go to and just knock on the door and asked to speak to the executive chef and say that I wanted a job. And every day they kind of first day they said no. And the second day, they said no. And on the third day, one of them said to me, All [00:19:00] right, you can come and wash the dishes and wait until we do some training programme or something and I said, Sure, that's great. I'll wash the dishes. So I got a job washing the dishes, and then he made me fourth cook salad hand after a few months, and I learned how to, um, I went to Polytech and learned how to be I cook, but I didn't know how to live, and it was terrible. It's eating disorder because it put me off food and, um, my hands are so dirty. I smelled [00:19:30] of food all the time, and I couldn't handle it at all. And once again the the fact that I didn't know how quite to live. And I, um yeah, I just got really sick. And I think I got the clap as well. And I got degeneration of my gums and I didn't know how to look after myself. And we were going to nightclubs, you know, like I was only 17 and you had to be 20 to get into the clubs. But there was a place [00:20:00] called the Dorian Society and the do in the society. You had to be a member, and I just turned 18 at that stage. So I was 17, and in April I turned 18. And then they, um somehow I got to be a member. I don't think I was supposed to drink. My membership was kind of dependent on me not drinking, but I I did. And that was the gay stuff. That was where it all started to go [00:20:30] off in terms of me meeting people and I. But I met Barton before that, and I fell in love. And, you know, we were together for two weeks or something. It was a very long relationship for me before I kind of ran off because I didn't I couldn't have a relationship with someone. You know, I don't even know who I was and what I did know about me. I wasn't very fond of, you know. Anyway, he was good to me. People were good to me. Long before I was ever good to myself. People tried [00:21:00] to love me even when I couldn't love myself. So the thing was was that, um we'd all hang out at the Dorian Society and get shit faced because you get in for $15 or something. And $15 was a lot of money. So we'd all get shit faced because we had to. You know, you you could, uh, you pay the door fee of $15 and then you could drink as much as you wanted to. And I didn't really have an off switch. Not for many things, actually. So Yeah, I just got shit faced [00:21:30] all the time. And then I found it difficult to live because I was unwell and everything else. So So what was gay life? Gay life was really just about sex and alcohol. It wasn't really anything else other than that for me in those days and can you comment on, I mean, the the the use of kind of alcohol and drugs? Was that kind of widespread in the in the gay community at that time? Or I mean I mean, did you stand out [00:22:00] because you were doing all of that, or was that just kind of normal? No. It was very much normal. It was, either. You went to public toilets and had sex, and I guess there was a lot of people who were standing around drinking there. There was a lot of drunk people there, but it wasn't because straight guys would get trolley and then they'd go to the bogs and get a blow job or whatever it was they were trying to do or shag someone. But you wouldn't. I don't think I don't know. But I don't think people picked people [00:22:30] up to take them home and have a cup of tea. I mean it it was all around alcohol and drugs. To my mind, we just got shit faced, and then we'd jag and, um, I don't have much recollection of of shagging without being off your tips. Really. It's kind of like the two went hand in hand. So, um, and being gay, we we were kind of well, to my mind, I mean, this is all it was like [00:23:00] for me, and and, um But I get a sense that that's what it was like for most people, because the Dorian Society was where we all hung out, and that was a part of the culture. I remember saying that I thought it was a bad thing because I thought I was becoming like my mom and dad. But, you know, I kind of felt also powerless. And, um, yeah, I Mm. And I got a straight job working for an insurance company. And that was really cool because I could use what was kind [00:23:30] of left in my brain. And there was normal people there who looked out for me. There was a woman. Elma. Elma, Elma. Full name Ramage. She was amazing. She was such a neat woman, Elma. She was just wonderful. And she was like a mum. You know, she kind of looked out for me, and she had told me off if I was hungover, but, um and she was kind of worried about me because of all the guys, you know, I'm trying to think, um, [00:24:00] baton took me to the sauna, so that was another place and I I maybe we doing shit faced when we were at the sauna, we were probably stoned, but we were probably stoned. I don't remember going to the sauna when I wasn't stone, but, um, it was what it was like. We got shit faced, we got laid. And that was kind of what it was about. Um, and the sauna was a different experience as well, because you'd go there and you'd have sex with guys, [00:24:30] and then you wouldn't see them again. Yeah, it was kind of it was anonymous. So you didn't really know who they were. It wasn't very good in lots of ways, either. It wasn't very good from establishing my self esteem or making me feel better about myself. That was for sure. What else did we do? So there was kind of the sauna and the beats, and then, um, [00:25:00] the Dorian Society. It was a place called the Victoria Club where all the rich guys went. That was nice. I remember going there and thinking, Oh, that was nice. but my behaviour didn't really fit in with a Victoria club. I was a bit wild. I think I was a little bit country, you know? So I was really plain speaking, fairly direct. And if I had anyone scary in a room, I'd annihilate them. Yeah, [00:25:30] I don't think I was very good in social situations. Can you explain, or can you just clarify for me during that period? I mean, were all these experiences fun? I mean, were you were you having a good time, or was it something that I mean that you are running from something or that's a good question. Oh, where the experience is fun. Yeah, pretty much. I mean, we were just getting stoned. [00:26:00] We just got shit faced. I didn't really know any different, so I didn't know to expect. I didn't know that there was a way to have fun. In fact, being off your tits, I didn't know that you could have, uh, be sexually intimate with someone you just shagged. And it was kind of a It was almost like a social exchange. It wasn't, um loving or kind. It wasn't, um, [00:26:30] as though I had any value as a human being. But in some ways, the the interactions didn't have them either. So we were having fun. Couldn't say That's a really good question. We laughed a lot. I'm sure. I think really, We were just off our faces all the time, so we couldn't really tell. And I like my straight job. I liked that [00:27:00] I was felt like I was contributing in some way, but I didn't. Mm. I I knew how to make people laugh as well as I knew how to people make people fear me so I could manipulate by being a people pleaser. But I didn't, Um I didn't Really Yeah. I don't know that we had. Maybe we did. I don't know. I don't know. The drag queens were having fun. [00:27:30] They terrified me as well, though. They were nice to me, but they terrified me. I couldn't work them out. Really? So did you do drag? Oh, did I do drag? No, they They dressed me up once the girls, the dental nurses dressed me up and put makeup on me. And, um, I showed photos, the Polaroid photos to the queens, And they thought I looked beautiful and they wanted to dress me up, but I said no. I didn't want to be dressed up as a queen. I felt I just [00:28:00] felt so far away from who I was, anyway, that to do that would have put me into a whole new spectrum of being far away from who I was, and I felt lost enough as well. Sounds really tragic, but I just felt so lost anyway that I didn't want to do anything else that made me more more lost than I already was. Hm. Interesting. I don't remember a lot of fun. Wow. At that time, were you aware of, um, anyone in the kind of rainbow [00:28:30] community or or or just Rainbow Person that was leading a different life so that that that had, um that that wasn't using alcohol and drugs. But the guys, the guys at the Victoria Club seem to be doing OK, but they were still heavily getting. They were still drinking a lot. It seemed their main way of getting was alcohol. Um, there was some people who were gay who were leading essentially normal [00:29:00] lives and seem to be doing ok, but we all seem to be the person all the time. We all seem to be consuming a lot of alcohol. Like it was a lot of gin and tonic being drank. There was a lot of wine being drank. There was a lot of I used to drink rum and coke, and, you know, I was like, nothing years old. I shouldn't have been drinking rum and coke. It was sweet, though. I think it worked. It was terrible. I don't know if that answered the question. [00:29:30] Was it? Yeah. I don't know. I didn't really know there was no one that I was aspiring to be like. There was no role models. There was No no. Well, certainly they weren't accessible to me at that stage. No, that came later. Early eighties and HIV AIDS starts kind of coming up. Um, what are your first memories of HIV aids? I was living in Home [00:30:00] Street and I was living with John. John, You know, you've got to hear about John. John was extraordinary. He was amazing. I think he worked as a dishwasher at a restaurant. I seem to remember something about that. He was fabulous. He was so cool. He was so much fun. he was fun. He was always having a great time. But we were always off our tits, so, you know, it's probably goes hand in hand. But John, um, used to wear yellow hot pants [00:30:30] and a big fur coat and roller skates. Anyway, so I've got completely distracted. How do we get talking about John talking about HIV aids? Oh, HIV aids. I lived in this house and with John and his partner, Paul, although they had split up by now, but they were kind of still cohabitating in the same house. And there was a time magazine. Uh, I don't know how I found a time magazine. God knows I didn't read the bloody thing, But, um, there was this time magazine about this gay plague [00:31:00] in San Francisco. I think it was or something. And I remember reading it, and there was this guy that used to come around and shag me sometimes. And I remember showing it to him because he was going overseas. And I said to him, um, if you're gonna go to America, you need to to know about this. And I was sitting up in bed postcoital and kind of, um showed him and he reckons I saved his life. He's still alive, and he's still HIV negative at the moment. You know, it was pretty cool, [00:31:30] but, um, that was the first time I'd ever come across it in terms of that. And then I left Wellington in 1984. So, um, I've been working for the insurance company and they promoted me and sent me back to Gisborne as the office manager. It was hilarious. I had no idea what I was doing. I had no no idea. Thank God there was a woman up there who who was basically running the office, who knew what to do. And I was there for, like, five months. [00:32:00] And I spent most of the time cleaning because it was kind of the only thing I knew what to do. And anyway, so I went to Gisborne, and then from Gisborne, I moved to for a couple of weeks. They transferred me there, and then I got a hell out of the insurance company and went and worked for she. So it was kind of a brief time. And then I was in Auckland and then I became aware of AIDS more and I don't know if the timing is right, Really? But there was that law reform stuff [00:32:30] was happening And there was all of the, um, people who were on the street and the Christians would be on the street on the corners of their little tables and chairs and trying to get us all to sign petitions. Because, I don't know, I can't remember what the petition was about because they hated us in some way. They didn't like us at all. And it was about that time that I became, um I mean, I'd been shit face for so long, I really didn't know. And I've got this great job at the Sheri [00:33:00] and, well, I worked a lot, shall we say, And, um, that's when I became aware about AIDS. I can't remember how I became aware of it. I wasn't really It wasn't really on my radar. I think it was when the guys started getting sick because I had used condoms ever since. I talked to [00:33:30] my friend who went to the US, had used condoms, and I knew about them, and, um, I started practising safe sex. And then there was Bruce Burdette told everyone that they should do safe sex. And when I went to Auckland, they kind of knew about it. Then I felt like I knew about it really early. Um, I tried having various relationships with people, but none of them were already. [00:34:00] None of them were really successful. None of them were all successful. I keep getting trashed, and, um yeah, so HIV and AIDS moved to Auckland, And then I remember the Burnet Clinic opening, and I remember I went to the opening because I made scones and I'd never made scones before in my life. And I didn't know that I tried to make it get fat, Not fat, Um, thickening or something or doughy. And I just added more butter and more and more butter to the point where they were just yellow scones. [00:34:30] They were really, really buttery. But I went to the opening of the Burnet Clinic, and that was how I remember that. But I don't remember much more about AIDS. And then everyone was getting it, and I tried to I started as an education worker for, um the AIDS Foundation, the AIDS Foundation. I don't know. It was called the Aid support network. It was called and they, um there was this woman, Barbara Thorn. And she was she was a big [00:35:00] woman, but she was fantastic. And she was really the whole thing about aids that it made me feel like, um, I don't know why, but it made me feel like I was OK. Wow, that's really weird. It was that, um it wasn't all about it was sort of about sex. And but And it was still about alcohol and drugs because they were trying to tell us that we needed to not get shit faced so we could try and make sure that we didn't have unsafe sex. [00:35:30] But there was people who came into this circle of people that I knew that I wasn't That wasn't the parent before that who weren't just trying to have sex with me, and it was like they were would be able to Oh, God, it was like they would be able to help in some way. So I went to the Aid Support network, and I learned how to talk [00:36:00] to people about how to keep themselves safe. The thing was, was that Barbara, the aid support network in the education programme where I ended up was that we had to go to schools and I was terrified about going to their schools. You go to school and you know that Barbara was fairly big statue, big of stature, and she was commanding in a room. And I learned that I was no longer a child and that I had a voice. So it was kind of helpful in some way traumatising but helpful. Then I heard [00:36:30] a guy called Dick Johnson went to training, and he started talking about how he lost years of his life because of alcoholism. And someone was speaking to me about me and I could identify with him. And so through AIDS and through what happened, I got a better understanding of myself and that I was living a life that had a shelf life. Really, I didn't I could say that I was in trouble and [00:37:00] I needed to do something about the way I was living. And when Dick Johnson spoke about it, I thought, Oh, my God, he's talking about me because I had years missing already, and I just was so young, you know, I was, um Yeah, I'd moved to Auckland and was working in the hotels. And, you know, I was just shit faced God all the time and, um, didn't still didn't have a value. So AIDS in some ways was a Saviour because it gave a point of reference that other people could, [00:37:30] uh, reach into my life and help me. Now I want to try and understand. Just a few minutes ago, you were talking about safe sex and, um, very early on wearing condoms. But if you don't have a value if you feel lost, um, that sense of worth is not there. I'm trying to understand what? Why would I practise safe sex? Because maybe they had some value, But also I didn't want to die. [00:38:00] I didn't want to die. I mean, if I'd wanted to die, I would have killed myself if, uh, I would have suicidal at high school. If I wanted to die, I would have given up. Then enough had happened to me in my life that I could have given up. But I still had that, um, desire to stay alive. Even if I had no value, I still had the desire to stay alive. I you know. So by practising safe sex, it, um it gave me a chance to continue to live. [00:38:30] Whereas if I didn't I was going to die. That was the writing was on the wall quite early on. So it's interesting. Yeah, because there's other people who have had a similar kind of experience and they had no value. So they they let themselves be used by having unprotected sex. Yeah, so it's interesting that I didn't That wasn't my experience, but I think I was already a fighter. And I had learned how to defend myself at school even though [00:39:00] it was ill advised, you know, to turn into a hostile individual so that people would stay away. And I judged everyone who wasn't like I judged those those married men who were, um, not living a gay life, but at the same token, was it wasn't a bad idea to stay in a closet and, um, live that way. No, I think it was probably a sensible idea. And I developed a whole lot more compassion for them, as I did for myself in later [00:39:30] years. When I realised that Goodness, You know, I, um they didn't. They were doing the best they could, as much as I was doing the best I could. But yeah, it's interesting that that connection between safe sex and my self esteem, and somehow, even though I had no value and no self esteem, I still wanted to live. And I still had safe sex. I didn't want to die. Hm. Around this time, the homosexual [00:40:00] law reform was going through in 85 86. Did the homosexual law reform have any impact on you? It was a horror show because it turned a whole lot of, um, people. It turned a whole lot of people against us. Well, that's an interesting statement, but that's how it felt. It felt like, um, in my in my little world of being nowhere, you know, because I really was nowhere. Um, suddenly there was a whole group of people that now were aware of me, and [00:40:30] they were angry that I was existing, you know? So I didn't really like the homosexual law reform very much. And I I was just, um, still just trying to stay alive. Yeah, it didn't I didn't feel like it impacted on me. Um, while it was all happening. And I, you know, like people say, What were you doing during homosexual law reform? I have no idea. I was stoned. [00:41:00] I wasn't out on the street doing stuff. I just noticed those people with a petition that was scary, you know? And the hostility that it brought was, um I didn't I didn't like that, but I didn't really have any understanding of it. It didn't. It didn't create a, um a community of leaders that I then felt comfortable to communicate with or talk to or anything. And, uh, I was stoned, and I was just living my life and trying to stay alive and, um, hanging out for [00:41:30] my my friends that were like me at the time. Would you consider yourself being kind of openly gay? Openly out? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I was very. I was very out I. I don't know. There was a closet big enough for me when I after high school, I was always very gay for being gay. In those days, you had to be quite thick skin. I had to be quite thick skinned. [00:42:00] The late eighties and early nineties saw quite a large amount of sickness and death through HIV aids. How did that affect you? Hm? Well, after I heard Dick talking Dick Johnson talking about it, and it must have been about 1986 87 I moved to Auckland and it was about 80. Sorry. [00:42:30] 84. I moved to Gisborne to and into Auckland 84 end of 84 85. God knows where I was off the planet and 86 much the same. And then kind of landing with the, um, uh the AIDS support network and the education programme of Barbara and hanging out with her and getting it, just getting getting an understanding that she thought I was OK even though I was gay that she thought I was OK. I don't think Barbara was a lesbian or anything. I'm pretty sure she was [00:43:00] a straight woman from South Auckland who just had a moral conscience and she had a, um a bit of a compass and she was just cool. And she would, you know, talk to me. Like many, many, many other people have tried to, uh, talk to me. But I wasn't particularly, um, open to seeing the world through other people's eyes. other than my own. I was very arrogant in that regard too, I would think. Anyway, um, So how did it affect me? God, [00:43:30] Death was all around. Um, you know, people were dying, and then people were getting sick. Um, so when Rudy kind of rescued me, um, what she did really and confronted me about my drug using and everything else. I mean, I wasn't intravenously using. I was just getting shit faced and going out, and, um, I was [00:44:00] working in the hotel industry, so it was pretty much accepted. I mean, I had a good boss at work who kind of cared about me, but, um, I didn't I still didn't have an understanding or care that much for myself other than knowing how to put a condom on. Um, so I mean, I went to rehab and early 80 age [00:44:30] and came out in the April and everyone was really unwell. In Auckland, it seemed like, you know, everyone was dying and I wanted to stay clean. And there was so many parties and everyone was smoking lots of drugs, and I couldn't handle it. And I couldn't handle being around everyone unwell, so I moved to Wellington, moved back to Wellington. Then I became a little bit aware because I'm clean now that there's a whole community of people who [00:45:00] are not living like I did. And yeah, I hadn't really been exposed to them before anyway. So there's people who are living, not how I lived, and there's people who are living and trying to help other people, and the whole AIDS, Um foundation seemed to be happening, and somehow I got to feel a part of it. I had a partner After I got out of rehab. I was about I relapsed after five months and then [00:45:30] on AM nitrate was hideous, But I was. I'm not going into that story. There was a reason why I did, and it was stupid. But I, um I met someone who at a youth. I mean, I was 26 years old. I'm at a rehab and I met someone at a youth gathering. I was bullet people from it. So somehow I've got hooked up for a community of people because I'm clean. [00:46:00] And, um, I met a man called Peter. Well, he was 21. I was 26 so he was just a boy in his world in some ways. But he was just the most wonderful young man, and he thought I was the cats. Whiskers. He thought I was brilliant. And I thought he was amazing. He was totally gorgeous. He was, like, 6 ft two. And he, [00:46:30] um he accepted me. For all my foibles, it seemed, and for all my, um, for my story. And, um, his family were fabulous. And they kind of made me feel, uh, normal, but loved in lots of ways. They were really, really loving and kind. And, um, so the things going on, But meanwhile, I'm getting clean and I'm getting [00:47:00] a sense of myself. And, um, you know, I understand all the things that happened to me weren't right and started to get a bit of a voice for myself. So at the same time as the community is getting a voice, I'm getting one as well. We're no longer hiding. We're no longer scared of ourselves and scared of the fact we exist. And, um, that was how it was for me as well. So it felt like a really healing time for me. And I got, um I got. [00:47:30] I became a part of a community. You know, I didn't get the community. I felt like I became a part of them through the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, A centre was in Main Street and Newtown. And, um, Peter, um, he finished his university studies, and I was working as a gardener and cleaning people's houses and kind of just trying to make them make ends meet. And Barton got me a job at the electrical warehouse where they tolerated me coming, and I was completely O CD [00:48:00] with cleaning. So I was always cleaning everything. So they let me work there, and I'd cut up the cardboard boxes and, you know, when it was raining and I couldn't garden and they let me go there and I'd just work whenever I wanted to, they were so good, like so many people were good to me. And, um and I, um I stayed clean, and I became aware that there was a community of of gay men and gay women who were, um, [00:48:30] who were living their lives free. And and I felt like I was a part of them in some way. Mm. That was a revelation. and I got involved in the AIDS Foundation. Peter got a job there. He was working as an AIDS prevention worker. I was still a gardener. Um, I felt like I didn't have very many smart still, but [00:49:00] he was bright. He read all the books and told me all the plant names. And, um, it was like he was able to unpack the world for me. He could translate everything. I didn't understand stuff, so he'd say that Plant that plant, Mrs Bowie's place. That's a Daphne, the one by the by, the by the thing, you know, that's a suit of panics. You know, that's a bit of the [00:49:30] He could unpack everything. I even went to a funeral. I remember a friend in recovery. His dad died and he was a Catholic, and his father had this full on mess up in Kalla. And, um, I didn't, um I didn't understand anything about religion, but I'd gone to this mess and I came home and I said to Peter, God, there were all these people there and they looked really well to do. It was in and everything, but they thought that Jesus was the son [00:50:00] of God and that God had given him everlasting life. And all we had to do is believe that he was the son of God or something and that we'd had everlasting life. And I came home and said to Peter, You know, this is ridiculous. There was all these really intelligent looking, educated people that thought this and he said, Hamish, where have you been? It's Christianity. And I was like, [00:50:30] Really? I went to Sunday school and I never got that, you know, It was hilarious. It was It was seriously, like I had been living in this world and I wasn't of it. And he started to unpack it all for me and kind of made it, um, made it all make sense in some way. Yeah, he was a very, very good man. And his family were very loving and kind to me, and they gave a sense of normality. And they accepted the fact that I I didn't drink [00:51:00] and I didn't do drugs and never, you know, like they were always terrified and family events that I'd end up for wrong glass or something. I remember once going to drink, um, someone else else's glass of wine. I just, you know, we were It was I think it was during speeches or something, and I grabbed someone's glass and was going to have a drink from it. And his father, Peter's father, came sort of screaming across the room, and he must have been watching me anyway. They were very, very good to me. [00:51:30] People were very good, very kind. But anyway, so what happened was to the whole AIDS thing was that I got a sense that there was, um there was a community and it wasn't bad and that, um, bad things were happening to us, but that we weren't. And I got also, um, a sense that I wasn't bad as well because I realised that I was a drug addict, that I was just an addict. I wasn't a bad person. I just learned a whole lot of coping mechanisms that [00:52:00] didn't serve me well and given where I'd come from and the environment in the high school and everything else, it was not surprising that I'd learned a whole lot of bad coping mechanisms. You know, I just had to protect myself and stay alive. So yeah, AIDS was a horrible, horrible disease. And I remember going to so many funerals. But in some ways it was it's it saved me because it gave a point where I was inaccessible to help. Hm. [00:52:30] I haven't thought about it like that before. You You've talked about healing, and I'm just wondering if you could, um, kind of talk to me a wee bit about, um, kind of resolving things within yourself because, you know, emotions that are kind of coming up inside me are things like, you know, I mean, do you do you? Do you blame people in the past? Is their anger is their forgiveness is tell me how how that kind of works for you. [00:53:00] That's a good question, isn't it? Do I blame people in the past? Well, I don't know. I think there was a time when I felt really angry about what had happened. Hm. I remember in rehab, I certainly I lost all my knuckles beating telephone books of rubber hoses until my hands all bled. [00:53:30] And it was part of grief group where I was really angry at what had happened. Um, I used to have a rock down by where that cafe is, um, made. A brass monkey is an island bay, and there was a big rock down there. They used to have a sledge hammer and I'd go down and smash it. I used to call it my sexual abuse rock. It's not there because I smashed the whole thing. I just kept smashing it until it was gone. I don't [00:54:00] think that's a particularly healthy way for me to deal with anger. I certainly strained my upper body a lot. And I hurt myself a lot too physically. Hm. I think sort of accepting who I was, um, kind of came later, but really, it came as a result of other people accepting me. You know, like I found I found it immensely difficult to accept myself. You know, I had done so many things to myself. [00:54:30] Other people have done things to me. But I had done things to myself by putting myself in situations. And when I learned about, you know, the responsibility that I had in things, um, it didn't make it easier to live with myself. It made it more difficult initially, but over time I got a lot more compassion and understanding of who I was and and what had happened to me? So I didn't I didn't give myself so much grief anymore. I didn't beat myself up as much as I used to or judge myself so harshly. Or [00:55:00] others, you know, Like I said about straight men who gay men who lived a straight life. I used to think they were. I thought they were cowards and I. I really got a better understanding of that. They made choices as I made choices and they made choices. That meant that they were able to live for themselves when they were able to stay alive, whereas I was quietly killing myself. So the healing came from other people first, and then it eventually [00:55:30] came from, um, a sense of gratitude for my life and being able to live it as I couldn't before. And I think the other thing was, um, in terms of anger towards, um those who had grieved me, you know, if I look back at my dad, you know, Dad did the best he could, Given the resources he had available. Mum was the same, you know, they were extraordinary people bringing up six Children [00:56:00] in those days. and having a gay kid at the end of a pack. You know, the youngest one turning out to be a handbag Can't have been a delight for them. You know, they Dad, Dad, I was dad's blue eyed boy. I was the most one that was most like him. Hm. I remember him once saying to me, You know, um, and he hugged me twice in my life. When? [00:56:30] Before I got cleaned. Well, he hugged me once after he'd give me a threshing, and then he hugged me once in rehab, he gave me a hug, and it was the second hug I'd ever had from him. And then, uh, maybe he hugged me as a young boy. I can't remember. I never I don't even remember being hugged. I remember being hit a lot. I remember having to sit beside him at the dinner table, and if I could put a a step out of line and he'd hit me or he'd rub my face and my food and, you know, [00:57:00] I don't remember him ever hugging me apart from that time, he'd given me a hiding. He gave me a hiding because I said that, um this kid had asked where my brother Graham was, and I said he went mad, so we shot him. Just ping silly. I didn't Really I didn't want anything to happen to Graham, but I wasn't my fondest. You know, we were always civil rivalry. We were always punching each other out. And, [00:57:30] um and Dad said to me, Why did I say that? And I didn't know why I'd said it. I just was joking. And he smacked me one in the head and he'd been unwell. Dad had been unwell, and I think he realised that it was unfair. And he was taking his unwellness out on me, and he gave me a hug. And I remember he gave me a hug after he'd thrashed me. Um, so, yeah, me and intimacy [00:58:00] weren't very good friends. We were. We were strangers and the whole mechanical sex thing. So healing for me was about learning how to be intimate and how to receive love. And when Peter, I met Peter and he was, um, really gentle with me, um, it was a godsend, you know, because suddenly, suddenly I could be physically with someone who wasn't scaring me and who I wasn't scared of or [00:58:30] who I wasn't. It wasn't a a commercial exchange, you know, everything. It felt like a commercial exchange before that. So he was, um it was good. So healing kind of started to happen there. And then through that, I was able to start to feel better about myself. And then as I worked my, you know, work my own recovery programme within, um um, self [00:59:00] help groups and things. And, you know, that's kind of how it started to progress. And do you know what the lesbians as well, I don't know. The lesbians have always been fabulous, you know. Hm. I remember when a gathering of people in recovery there was a lot of lesbians here and one of them said, Oh, you'd be an honorary lesbian And this woman looked at me and she says, The only way that you're ever going to be an honorary lesbian is if you die and be born again. You know, she was She [00:59:30] was scary. But the lesbians, the woman's energy and the healing that they were able to provide was extraordinary. You know, they were fabulous. I do remember those first devotion parties And you know that woman It was a woman, that one of them the, um you know, meetings where we were all trying to organise everything and make sure it happen. Because eventually, originally, the devotion parties came out of that experience of Peter working for the AIDS Foundation and things was that [01:00:00] we started with devotion. And, um, they were an AIDS foundation or an AIDS support network, or they were a fundraiser for people living with the virus, and they were rallying point around the community. But I remember this woman once saying, you know what's going on? We're all the men, you know, We're all doing all the work. And I said, for goodness sake, haven't you realised they're all dead or they're dying? Our community leaders are dying, and it was very much a case, you know, everyone, our brightest [01:00:30] and our, you know, our most fabulous had the virus because they were the ones who were getting the sex, I guess. But you know that they, um they were the ones who we lost our We lost our leaders. In some ways, we lost. Um, we lost a lot of them, but you know, so the devotion parties were a rallying point and it was how we came together. I think we came together to to help each other heal and be exposed to each other, where we weren't trying [01:01:00] to have sex or my experience. You know, everyone wasn't like me. Of course I'm sure. But, you know, that was just my experience. So healing happened from me going to recovery meetings, and I went to them every day. I went to them every single day. I was desperate. I was desperate to not be who I had always been. I wanted to be, um, different than I had become. And I didn't want to be isolated and alone anymore. [01:01:30] I didn't want to be isolated with my anger and my hate and my, you know, my total hatred. Four people. I just found it so isolating. I wasn't very nice to be around. And because I was scared, I would just go for people's Jaguars and and, um, be hurtful towards everyone so they'd leave me alone. So I took that out of the equation, and I didn't really know how to be with people, [01:02:00] but I Yeah, it was a confusing time but people loved me before I could love myself. 1991. Now that that was the first devotion, I think was it first devotion? It must have been about there somewhere around 1991 I think I got clean in 88. I remember the hero party because Peter made me a t-shirt [01:02:30] and a single to wear it to the party. And it had, um um, something like 2.5 years a hero because I've been clean for 2.5 years. It was just fabulous. It was an act of many acts of kindness. He had, you know, towards me that, um, celebrated me and my recovery that made me feel good about myself, but yes. So the devotion parties, I think, were kind of happening at the same time. And we had that devotion. Um, [01:03:00] we were basically trying to have a dance party to raise money. It was a fundraiser, as I said, and we had the first one at the overseas terminal. And, um, there was Janet. I don't want to say who the people were because I might forget someone, but there was Janet and Elizabeth and, um, Mark Harrison. Oops. And Harrison and Peter and Elizabeth O'Loughlin and Janet Dunn. They were the people that I can remember. There may have been other [01:03:30] people, but they were the people I can remember who were part of the group that formed Sprung Productions that hosted the parties. Um, sprung productions came out of the fact we had a tea dance as a fundraiser in the October, and it was spring time. So we called the tea dance sprung, and, um, yeah, it was a lovely party. It was during the day. And even though I'm clean and I'm not using drugs and not using any alcohol or anything I I kind of could go along and and party because I was with Peter and, [01:04:00] you know, I felt so much love. You know, I felt loved anyway, So then we had we raised the the tea dance, raised the seed money for the party to be able to afford to buy, you know, rent a venue and everything. And we rented the overseas terminal, not the upstairs, the downstairs where the, um all the cargo area kind of thing. It was a big, old, cavernous concrete thing. It was pretty hideous, but we made it into we dressed it and made it [01:04:30] fabulous. Or Janet did. And Peter, there were so many talented people around anyway, um, they all, um we were all sitting around on Mark Harrison's bed in road in the house up there, and we were trying to figure a name for this event and because it was going to be by the ocean. Um, at the overseas terminal, we were trying to think of something that would rise with rhyme with by the ocean. I don't think we were very savvy at this point. And, [01:05:00] um, so we had this by the ocean party. Well, what the hell? So then it became devotion by the ocean, and then thank God be dropped by the ocean, and it just became devotion, and it became devoted to whatever it was that you wanted to be devoted to. So you could be devoted to hedonism or safe sex or love or, um, or living alcohol and drug free. You could be devoted to anything you wanted to be. You could be devotion to your loved one, you know, And it was really had a lovely, uh, spirit [01:05:30] that kind of captivated the imagination of people and they felt a part of and the community ran it around and wanted to be a part of it as well. And and we had it all for a good cause. The other thing? Yeah. No, I can't remember what I was gonna say, but there it was. Great. It was a great celebration. And yeah, it was a rallying point for people to heal. I think as well. And so these became annual events. I think they were annual. They came up [01:06:00] very regularly, and I know we had a hell of a lot of work. And the second one I remember was that the shed, which we called the she I don't know what the hell it was called, but it was, um, is now. And it was a big shed that was created for which I can't for the life of me, remember what it was. I just know that became a disaster and it was known as a disaster. But they built this big shed or something where papa was and we got we it wasn't me. [01:06:30] I mean, I. I wasn't the ideas person. I was just a dog who? I mean, we just go ahead and do whatever I was told, really, to try and make things happen and, um, was a part of, But they had a carousel in the square shed, and then they had this kind of dance floor surrounded by these rises within the big shed. And it was really, really neat. And we had a coffee place as well, so that for people like me could go and have a coffee. And, um, it was inclusive and it was celebratory and people [01:07:00] dressed up and it was wonderful. I do. I do remember getting dressed up for the first party. Peter quite liked dressing in drag, which I found quite intimidating because you can never work out who people were in drag. And he developed a persona which I found terrifying. But Peter, um, was also highly talented And, um, just so, um, yeah, I'd say vivacious, but it's the wrong word. He was a vivacious drag queen, but he was [01:07:30] a totally handsome and engaging and, um, gregarious man. So But anyway, so the devotion party started and it was the second one. Was it the and then the third one was that, um, shed 21 on the waterfront, the big brick building by the, um, by the railway station down opposite that old downtown Backpackers. And, um, that one, I don't know how we did it, but we built staircases between the floors and big concrete floors. [01:08:00] And I can remember there is this big staircase and scaffolding. And, um, Peter and I had made this fabulous outfit for me because, um, it was a a rainbow hook dress, and, um, I wore this with, um heels and fishnet stockings. It was quite an experience. My brother came mhm. My brother came, came [01:08:30] to that party, which was very peculiar, because it was always quite homophobic, but he I don't know, that's another story. The Rabo her dress was christened, had its inaugural out in that time, and I remember going up the stairs in her heels, and, um and God knows why or where or anything, but anyway, I wore this and I wasn't made up as a woman or anything. I was just It was kind of like gender fact. It was kind of like gender cross gender thing, but it was like we [01:09:00] really didn't care anymore. And we could just be who we wanted to be. And I was wearing it, and it made me feel good because I felt like I was fat. I wasn't, But I felt like I was I was fatter than I used to be, anyway, And, um, going up the stairs and I, I lost my balance, and I ended up going backwards down the stairs in the heels and successfully not falling over. It was quite an achievement at the time, but it was the beauty of it was because I was [01:09:30] just on caffeine, you know? And once again, we had a devotion party had this big area outside where people could go and have coffee. And it was kind of a cafe experience because Elizabeth and myself and others were keen to maintain that space. Yeah. Can you talk about that in terms of, like, organising dance parties? I mean, were you keen to have, um, areas that weren't, um, alcohol and drug? Yeah, Yeah, we we wanted to mix it up. [01:10:00] We wanted to tell, Have everyone so that people felt included. We didn't want people to feel the isolation that you felt from drug and alcohol dependence. We didn't want people to not be able to come because they would be exposed to, um to that. We didn't want to be like the door in society where you had to be shit faced to get in the door, basically where you had to be willing to tie one on So you could create an environment where people felt safe from whichever part of the community they came from or whether they were the, um, the ones who wanted to get off [01:10:30] their tips or whether they were the ones who just wanted to, um, socialise and hang out and have a good old boogie and then come back and socialise and hang out where you could actually talk to each other, where you could develop a sense of community where you could flirt where you could, um, kind of have fun. Yeah, so that's kind of what they were. And of course, that one was noteworthy. That party at shed 21 was the one that, um where there was, um, where Arthur had passed away. So Arthur was this extraordinary, [01:11:00] gregarious, vivacious man, vivacious drag queen. He was just one of them. our leaders, and he that night died and there was a, um A I'd say it was a ripple, but it was more a a, um, a sad sense when it went through that Arthur had passed away because, um, he was a performer at the last one kind of thing, you know, he [01:11:30] was always a star. So it was sad that he had gone that that night and we went I can't think of a word that describes the, um, the sense of grief that went through the place when it was known that he had gone. I do also remember Peter doing a very, very unsuccessful strip at the, um, at the event where, um, Peter, um decided that he wanted to do a strip. [01:12:00] I don't think he quite factored in how long the music went and where he was up to in the music. And he spent way too much time on the stage jiggling around without anything on, and, um, but, yeah, he was, um he was a great performer. And he, um he was totally, totally gorgeous and handsome and in every way. Hm. What else about those devotion parties? So we made shit Loads of money for the AIDS, Um, for people living with the virus. [01:12:30] And they were well supported by the community. And after that one, I don't recall having any further involvement in them. Um, and other people started to put them on. I remember going to one another time, but, um, I don't really remember them as, um things that I was a part of. I think my relationship had developed, and I felt somehow I'd moved on. And quite how can you talk about, [01:13:00] um, just the whole kind of visibility aspect of something like devotion, which is a very big public, um, showing of, of kind of, um, rainbow people. How I mean, is that important And And if it is important, why is it important? I think, um, I certainly know that the Overseas Terminal Devotion Party, the people in Oriental Bay were aware of the party, and I don't think that went down so well, [01:13:30] so it was quite visible and not necessarily in a good way at that one. there was We had things called the Love Parade. And, um, where I remember walking down Lampton Quay and it wasn't a protest March and it wasn't something that was supposed to be in your face. It was just a celebration of the fact that, um, we were there and that, you know, I guess it was legal by now and that, um we were testing the boundaries and things. But to my mind, visibility is important. [01:14:00] It's really, really, really important. And I guess that's why I used to be so judgmental of the straight man, the gay men who lived a straight life because they were being cowards and everything else. But as I say, I don't judge them so much anymore. But I do think the visibility is important because I, um I don't want people to go through what I went through. I want people to feel a part of I don't want people to feel apart from, And I think if people are visible and [01:14:30] and you know I want people to be visible who are essentially living a normal life because that is as important as it is for the, um for the gregarious, um, extroverts as well, because it's important that everyone has someone that they can not necessarily role model, but someone who that they can believe that there's, um, somewhere for them to be themselves in the universe, you know, because if they if they think that they have to be a drag queen, to [01:15:00] be out or to be a gay person, and that's going to be counterproductive for someone who's maybe a little bit introverted and doesn't really suit them, that they can't really see themselves being there, I think the other thing, I think the thing that gave me hope long before any of it really was the the um, the Netherlands, I've got to say I don't know where, how I know this or how I thought this But as a kid, I knew somehow [01:15:30] that the Netherlands someone had told me that it was OK to be gay in the Netherlands and I held on to that hope that maybe one day I'd be able to go to the Netherlands and I remember meeting the Dutch ambassador when we were having the out games here in Wellington and saying to him that you know, I don't think your country quite understands, um what it did by saying that it was, um not OK [01:16:00] to persecute gay people way back in the day before anyone else was doing it, because it gave me a sense that I was OK somewhere. I wasn't OK with myself, and I wasn't OK here, but I would be OK if I was somewhere. So I put that in the context now and you have people who are visible within our community. It was like they were the first people who were visible, like they being the Dutch government or whoever it was that was in there, [01:16:30] who was doing what they were doing to make it seem OK for me to be, um, gay here when I so didn't feel ok being gay here. So I think visibility is important. But I think it's important to be not just the, um, the extrovert. It's really important that we know that there's a there's a quiet writer somewhere who is, um, who is gay and is writing, you know, um, there's other people who are who are not, um of the ball. [01:17:00] Yeah, I just want to go back on something I said because I, uh, kind of just assumed in terms of, like, devotion that it was, um, rainbow focused, and I just want to clarify when devotion was set up. Was it targeting specifically rainbow communities, or was it targeting the you know anyone, um, affected by HIV A I DS It was, um everything was very [01:17:30] much open to everyone who was affected by HIV and AIDS. And the other lovely thing about the parties was that everyone came. It wasn't just our community who went, but it was an opportunity for us to flirt and and be naughty and to be to be out there with, uh it was some ways it was testing the waters for people who were coming along who were not from our community. They were the the pre and post gay. They were the, um, the heterosexual community, [01:18:00] the non gay community. Um, I prefer to think about the whole world as gay myself nowadays. But, you know, there is, uh, elements who are not gay, apparently. And, um, that within, um, the devotion parties. It was kind of a way for us to test the boundaries about what we could get away with without being told off. But also, it was an opportunity for them to come together with us and all of us just to accept that, um, we wanted to try and [01:18:30] stop the hideousness of the virus. But more importantly, to stop people from feeling the isolation that the virus was creating in their lives. Another very public coming together was, um or were the beacons of hope Memorials. Can you tell me about your involvement with those? Hm? Essentially trying to help Trying to help. There was a man, a wonderful man. Richard Ben, who, um, was working for the AIDS Foundation, worked with Peter, [01:19:00] and they were doing He was the one who was leading beacons of hope. And what an extraordinary visionary man he was in terms of creating an event where everyone who had died was acknowledged because you would have, um, So my involvement was really going along to the events and trying to support, um, people to make the torches or making torches. I mean, these torches were hunk of wood. Um, generally a piece of tree and, um, wrapped around. It was a whole lot of, um, fabric, cotton, um, old [01:19:30] sheets from the hospital. I think they were. And then a wrap wrapped around that was chicken wire. So that when this torch that was dipped in. Um, I think it was probably methylated spirits or something. Something flammable was, um, illuminated. It's not the right word. Lit was lit, was flaming, um, that they had chicken wire around it so it wouldn't come down and burn the person who was carrying it. So you'd have one of these tortures for every human being who had died from [01:20:00] the virus. So it was then the virus was not, uh, you know, dependent on us all being gay. And then we'd had these flaming torches, um, around the the outside parliament. Um, and it's terrible. I can't remember what the purpose of the event was other than to acknowledge and, um, uh, acknowledge how many people had died from the virus. But I suspect we were trying to get some further funding or something further from government [01:20:30] to acknowledge and, um, to help us take responsibility. And we were trying to take responsibility by changing our practises and everything else, but to try and stop the virus from spreading within other communities as well. So these flaming torches then came from the four different points of Parliament grounds and came and we all stood in a circle in the middle of Parliament. I mean, in the front of Parliament, there and in the middle, in a circle of all these flaming torches, each one in [01:21:00] me of someone. So it was, you know, a very, very spooky, haunting event. And then next time we did it, we did a Frank Kitts park, and everyone kind of came over to City Sea Bridge and came over from different ways. And we all came around and stood around the the, um, lagoon, um, where the boat shed is and things in Wellington Harbour. So it was the second one, but and we used to have the beacons up on top of Mount Victoria. And then there was beacons all over the country where people [01:21:30] were lighting. Um, the beacons, initially I think was, um, the flaming torches. And then it became the beacons with some flaming big bonfires where it was a rallying point for people to remember and also for people to to, um, acknowledge. Somehow I think I've seen some footage of the Frank, its lagoon one where there's about 100 and 75 torches around the lagoon. I think I remember 100 and 76. But yeah, it was and terrifying [01:22:00] that that many people had died, you know? I mean, I mean, in the context now of the day with, um, youth, suicide and everything else. You know, it's, um we we I'm not gonna say we got off lightly, but we got off lightly. Really? Because we we rallied and we stopped each other from getting the virus. You know, we we kind of saw the impact that it was having. Yeah. God, what a horror show. So many people died. I remember the the, um, Peter and I [01:22:30] eventually split. And, um, we split because, um, I suspect it was because I was trying to have a child with a a dear friend. We were trying. It was 1994 and, um, we were trying to have a child, and, um, he could see that the relationship was going to progress to other things. And we'd been together 5.5 years and that, um, he wanted to do other things in his life. And he, um he wanted to go off and travel, and his grandfather had died [01:23:00] and he got some money, and he'd gone to England, and I think his world had got much bigger and mine seemed so small. And, um, he, um he it off. So with that, at that same time, I was trying to have a child and, you know, after a couple of miscarriages. God, it was awful. Um, we had two miscarriages, and, um, you know, I thought, Well, in some ways, the universe is spoken, and I'm not going to have a child, and I had to move on. So what a grieving [01:23:30] experience that was. I'm interested. Uh, I asked earlier on about you know what? Um, the early nineties were like in terms of all the kind of sickness and and and death and how you coped. I'm wondering what are the what do you think are the after effects of going through that kind of intense period of of years? Um, and also the idea of of moving on, how you know, how do you move on? Mhm. [01:24:00] Goodness. I don't think you can move on until you've acknowledged it. You know, in some ways you know what's happening with Maori and everything else. You can't. You can't say that the atrocities didn't happen. and we had to name it. You know, we had to come together with our AIDS foundation, candlelight memorials and beacons of hope. We had to get there and we had to say people's names. And we had to acknowledge and acknowledge and feel the grief [01:24:30] until, um, it didn't hurt so much anymore. Um, mhm. We had to keep talking about them. I mean, I didn't, um you know Rudy and John who got me clean, who saved my life. They died in 1991 and, um, [01:25:00] it was sort of in the two thousands. I, you know, I talked to my sponsor about my own recovery and there was so many people who were dying and I couldn't cope. I couldn't cope for grief myself. And I used to say to my sponsor about it and he'd say, Well, let's put it on the shelf, Let's put it on the shelf. And you know, there came a time in my life. I had quite a a growing shelf, and every time we'd say we put [01:25:30] it on the shelf, I'd kind of put it on the shelf and I'd think, right, well, I'll deal with it later I You know, I deal with that one later. And there came a time I. I don't know what happened, but I felt like it was time to take Take the boys off the shelf. I couldn't put them on the shelf anymore. It had been too long that they had been there already. And, um um, I don't know what to do, though, Um, [01:26:00] what do I do for grief? You know, I went to a counsellor and they said, Let's write a letter. Hello? Mhm. How how do I How would I write a letter to my thought? I didn't Really. You know, I really and John had long gone. I wasn't there at the end When they died, I went to the funerals. [01:26:30] I mean, I went and saw them in the hospice and everything else, but I wasn't with them when they died. I felt regret for that. But I also, um, couldn't cope with the grief. And I wanted to stay clean. I didn't want to, um, end up, um, back using. So I did what I could, which was to stay away. [01:27:00] And then, um and so I went to a counsellor and they said, Write a letter and I thought not going to write a letter. What am I gonna say? And I thought, Oh, I've always learned that actions speak louder than words. So I thought I'll, um I had done so much other community stuff and it had stopped and I thought I had a gap. So I went and, um, went on the New Zealand AIDS [01:27:30] Foundation board and I stood for the board and I thought, Well, if I can do something, if I can be some use if I can be useful in some way and use community connections which I developed over time from being human and being a part of as opposed to living in isolation. So I went on the AIDS Foundation board and tried to, um you know, bridge that gap and and give thanks. And remember, really, it was a kind of therapy [01:28:00] where I was constantly with the boys and, um, yeah, I did feel a sense of healing, and I went to more things and kind of acknowledge them. And then when I was 25 years clean a couple of years ago, I was 25 years clean, and I always felt bad that Rudy and John were never acknowledged in any way. Um, I, you know, not acknowledged [01:28:30] that sounds stupid, but that their lives with there was never anything. You know, we we we burn them. What did I say? We cremated them. We cremated them and we spread the ashes and there was nowhere where they were. Well, they weren't anywhere else. They would They had passed, but there was nowhere anywhere that acknowledged them. So when I turned 25 years clean, I acknowledged them by establishing a park bench up in Mount Victoria which, [01:29:00] um, acknowledged them for for, um 12, stepping me for saving my life for getting me clean and packing me off to rehab. So I wanted to acknowledge them in some way. And it's funny, you know, I'm doing this today because I I Oh, a few years before that, I'd been to Cologne and went swimming in the Gay Games in Cologne, and I went to Amsterdam and met Rudy's parents and, um, gave thanks to them for his life. [01:29:30] And and, um, you know, we talked about Rody, and and, um, it was lovely to remember him, and, um with his mom and dad and just acknowledge who he was and acknowledge the impact on my life and the fact that he had saved it. So it's funny that I should be doing this today because I rang his mum today. I haven't rang her since then. Um, you know, that was quite a few years ago [01:30:00] in Cologne. And, you know, when I rang her today because I still hadn't let her know that we had done a Memorial Park bench and partly because Rudy's dad died the day before, We did the Memorial Park bench, and I kind of, um um had felt sad about that. And, um, you know, life's other busyness has taken over, but this morning it's funny. I rang her this morning. She was grateful [01:30:30] to hear from me, and she thinks, very fondly of New Zealand. The thing I loved about meeting up Rudy's mum was she said, you know, I have no shame. I have no shame. I have no shame for my son who was gay and he was an addict, and he had HIV and I loved him, and she spoke so strongly about having no shame about her son. You know it is infectious. I had no shame about him as well. [01:31:00] I just adored him. He was a fabulous human being. He was mad. He was completely mad, as we all were when we were drug affected and living our lives. And we were pretty mad when he stopped using drugs as well. But, um, you know, I love the fact she had no shame. And Maria's dad was just gorgeous as well. They were a wonderful couple. They really were. But it's funny. I rang her today and told her. And so I'm compiling an email to send to her and her, um, and Rudy's sister, who lives in Canada, [01:31:30] Um, taking photos of the bench and of the celebration that we had, um, in 2013. Tell me about, um, uh, the support group, the Narcotics Anonymous for for gay and lesbian. Well, we don't breach our anonymity, you see? So, um, but you were instrumental in in kind of establishing this in Wellington. We had this funny old thing because we've been told that we couldn't have a gay and lesbian group. Um, and [01:32:00] in Narcotics Anonymous that we so we established one and we thought, Where the hell can we have a meeting for addicts and alcoholics? So we don't, um, you know, end up in trouble. So we went to Carmen's farewell Carmen's cafe, and, um, it was called that stage. It was called the Evergreen Cafe. And and, uh and, um, what's that street? Vivian Street and Chrissy Weak, who was fabulous. She said, you can come and have your meetings here. So [01:32:30] we had our meetings here and they had no 12 step. I know it as lesbians and gay men getting together to try and help each other, stay clean, drug free or deal with the effects of it. Because there was, um, a lot of adult Children who had been affected by alcohol as well. So we all came together, but the difficulty was that we had no, uh, we had no purpose. We had no way of moving it forward, um, to other than just staying with a disease and [01:33:00] staying with a problem, we had no solution. So we had to try and find a so, you know, find a solution. We had to find a solution. It sounds strange, but we had to find something that would give us the focus within the meetings. That was solution focused. So we, um, started. We were told that we couldn't have a gay Narcotics Anonymous meeting because you had to have one at exactly the same time as, um, another meeting. It was a bit unfortunate that that was the information we were given because it wasn't true. So, [01:33:30] um, we started an a a meeting, a gay a a meeting. And, you know, I, um, was, um, I didn't really find a a particularly useful for me because I was an addict. I was wasn't just a, um uh uh, addicted to alcohol. I was addicted to many things, and, um, I didn't really feel so comfortable talking about alcohol as opposed to talking about the disease of addiction. It seemed to ring more true for me and sit more with [01:34:00] me and I, um, anyway, so we started this a a meeting, and then eventually we found out from the Australians that we could start a gate in a meeting. So we closed the A meeting very quickly and started at a gay and a meeting which happened for about 12 years. I think in Wellington. And it was, um the still one happens in Auckland. Thank goodness. And it was a great opportunity for lesbian and gay addicts to come together. The whole thing about the the 12 steps is to carry [01:34:30] the message to the addict who still suffers. That's our whole primary purpose. Really. The whole reason for being is to carry the message to other addicts. And if you can carry, um, addict a message to the addicts of the Lisbon and gay community, I thought it was a worthwhile cause. Anything that stopped us killing ourselves. Really? So, um, so you know, it was what we did. And we had the meeting going for about 12 years. Sadly, it kind of got [01:35:00] the separatists got involved for a period of time, and they didn't cause all the straight people used to come as well because it was the best meeting in town. It was a fun meeting, and it had, um, a strong recovery because there was lots of us who were had had got clean. And, um then the separatists got involved and said that they didn't want all these straight people coming to the meeting anymore. So, um the straight people, sadly left and, uh, went and started another meeting on the same night and which is custom [01:35:30] that you have a lesbian and gay meeting on the same night as so that people who are not of that persuasion can go to another meeting and don't need to feel uncomfortable. But so But of course, um, with most things where things like that happen, it killed it. Um, where you poison? Something with fear. Um, in that way, it killed the meeting and it took away its mojo. And, um yeah, eventually it closed. Why is it important to, um, have [01:36:00] a AAA separate space for, say, gay and lesbians or or or rainbow people? That's a good good question. Well, to my mind, um, it's really interesting because, you know, I've come completely full circle on this because when I was in, uh, being assessed and everything else and Eden Clinic in Auckland for the rehab and I was meeting with him, there was this wonderful nun there who would say to me, You know, there's a lesbian and gay a a meeting, and I said, I don't want to go. And she [01:36:30] said, Why don't you want to go? And I said, because why would I go to that community? Why would I go to that community who had done nothing but, um, rape and pillage me since I was young. I couldn't see any point in going near them the the gay people who are in recovery. Um, because I was so angry and felt so hurt from what had happened as a young person and I was still 26. I wasn't that old at that stage, but, you know, [01:37:00] and, um, it took some time before I would go near the gay and lesbian meeting. And it was interesting, actually, when I, um, went to the meeting and I met a wonderful man Ken, And sadly, he's passed now. But he was, um, a wonderful man because he had a Land Rover, and I thought he was very, very handsome and remembering that I have no point of reference other than sexual. At this point, I've never had a value as a human being other than being able to [01:37:30] have sex with people. So he, um I remember hitting on him and him saying to me, Oh, we could jump over the back of a Land Rover and have sex now, but I don't know that it would keep you sober. I was mortified. He'd called me on my shit, and he was like, one of the first people who had ever acknowledged me as something other than just the, um, someone to have sex with. And it was so refreshing, so, so refreshing. So although I didn't want to go to the lesbian and gay a meeting in Auckland because I didn't want [01:38:00] to be, um, to expose myself to the gay who would do what they did to me kind of thing. God, very victim, isn't it? But I, um I didn't find that when I went there at all. The people were were, um were well were. Well, Ken was very well, and, um tried to give me the love and care which I hadn't experienced before. So starting up a lesbian and gay meeting, I wanted to ensure that it did the same kind of thing that it did, [01:38:30] what Ken would have done, which was we didn't hit on each other. We were just there for each other. There's this wonderful saying in recovery that we do not net the wounded. We don't bayonet the wounded. It's a horrible, horrible image. But it's kind of like what you do if you try and have sex with people in recovery from the meetings and things, because what that means is that you stop them from being in a safe place. And, um, you know, for goodness sake, by the time someone gets to, [01:39:00] um, in recovery from drug and alcohol dependence, the last thing they need is anyone else to try and, um, use them in that way. We do need loving but not sexual loving. Yeah, and I was grateful that it's never been a part of my story to fall in love with anyone in recovery until January last year, when I fell in love with someone who was a newcomer, and the effect on me almost took me out. You know, the effect of the impact on me meant that I fell in love with someone [01:39:30] who, um who I couldn't have a relationship with. They were so new in recovery, and it was reciprocated initially, um, but it was reciprocated only because they had no idea that they didn't need to. They also didn't know that they didn't need to fall in love with someone in recovery to get love and caring support. So it was a It was a great little lesson for me, but it did almost take me out. Hm? In the [01:40:00] meetings, do you find that there are common threads between people? I, I I'm thinking, Is there are there common threads between rainbow people that are, um, that that are dealing with addictions, if nothing else. The humour and the stories. Yeah, we we generally we've come from the same places we've been to the same places. Our stories are not as similar, though across the whole of people in recovery, most people have [01:40:30] have, um, had some horrendous experience which has put them over the top. Or, um, it's not all. All people in recovery are, um, not from, um, trauma. Um, the same as all people who are lesbian and gay haven't been sexually abused. Or but there are some common threads, but I mean, humour is one of them, the ones that comes together when we come together and we're in recovery. You just There's [01:41:00] a lot of noise. There's a hell of a lot of noise. We have a lot of fun. And if we celebrate, um, the fact that we're all clean. I've been to the the first meeting I went to in a in a meeting a lesbian and gay one because I'd come from that experience of those bigots on Queen Street. I was hideous Christians who were telling me all sorts of horrible things about me, which I believed in some way. Um, that when I got clean, um, I thought [01:41:30] I had great difficulty accepting the fact that I was a gay man going to be clean, uh, because these Christians had all told me that I was an abomination and everything else, and I couldn't see how I could possibly escape that. And I went to, um, a meeting at a convention in Sydney and, um, a lesbian and gay meeting at the convention. And there was 60. I swear there was 60. There was, you know, 1.5 1000 people at the convention. It was a very big [01:42:00] convention. And there was 60 lesbian and gay people in this meeting this lesbian and gay meeting that I went to and I was in awe. I was totally in awe. I can't believe that there's this many people who were clean and we're OK and that it works for them because II I had difficulty with accepting that there was going to be some greater power who would accept me and love me as I was [01:42:30] as a gay man. So, yeah, I loved it. I just loved it. I just cried. I just cried, cried in relief and cried in gratitude. I was just so grateful that they were there and I've never forgotten them. You know, I've been to world conventions now. I've been to conventions in San Diego. I've been to conventions in Hawaii, I've been to Philadelphia and I've been to lesbian and gay meetings where I see rooms and rooms, rooms of hundreds of people who are lesbian and gay, who are clean [01:43:00] and, you know, it's OK. It was a lesbian woman who came to New Zealand. I don't know how clean she was. She must. She was like a god to me, and she was a lesbian woman who was clean, and I remember just looking at her and thinking it's going to be OK. We're gonna be OK. I'm gonna be OK. It's gonna be OK to get old as a as a gay man and living clean. It's gonna be OK as long as I keep staying clean. Of course. You know, if I try and wreck my life again, you know, chances are I'm gonna [01:43:30] be, um, in a grave in an early grave. But, you know, at 52 now I look back and I reflect, And I think, My God, I've been so fortunate in so many ways. And, you know, the early life experiences that I had the hideousness of it all, um, I've survived, and, um, better than survived. I've lived a happy and full life. So how have I done that? And what have been the main ingredients that have created that sense of, um, of happy and free now [01:44:00] is because I am. I became a part of a community. You know, essentially, I became a part of a community, a wider community. But essentially, uh, the other part about it is that I've become a part of a a lesbian and gay community. But I have gay men who love me for who I am and not relationships. You know, all my friends are bloody couples. But I, I have a community of gay men who love me for who I am [01:44:30] and accept me for who I am. And yeah, I seem to add value to my community. I'm not isolated. I'm certainly not alone. God, sometimes I think I'd love to go to a town where I didn't where I could walk down the street and not know everyone. You know, I thought last year I thought after I I thought I'd love to go and live somewhere where I don't know everyone. And I went to Costa Rica and I was going to go and live there. And I thought I learned Spanish and moved to Costa Rica [01:45:00] and I'll be anonymous and no one will know me well, within two weeks, I felt like I knew everyone. It's quite a small community there. And I stuck out like the proverbial I. It was terrible. And I thought, Oh my God, I've just got to accept that I'm living in Wellington and I know lots of people because I've been around a long time. And aren't I fortunate that I have people who will come and say hello to me. Who will, Um, if I'm sitting in a cafe will come and join me, and I'm [01:45:30] never alone anymore. And I'm never alone because I'm loved. I'm not never alone because people are running to get away from me. I'm sure there's some that do run to get away from me, but, you know, it's just because they think I want something from them or I want them to do some fund raising or something you mentioned, um, greater power. And I'm wondering, um, what are your thoughts on, uh, greater power or spirituality or religion? What does that mean for you? [01:46:00] Um, well, clearly, my early understandings of religion didn't go down very well. I loved singing in the In the choir at Saint Matthew's Anglican Church in Masterton. I had a very good singing voice, and I loved singing, but I didn't have any understanding of religion, and I don't really profess to it now either. Peter told me as much as I know about Christianity and I didn't really feel that I want to take it any further. [01:46:30] Um, but a sense of you know, a sense of spirituality in God. I have an extraordinary, strong faith. Now that there is a power that's loving and caring and greater than me, you know, it's not. It's not, um, sitting on a cloud watching my every move. Thank goodness it would be a bit tedious for him or her. I'm sure, um, but I do have a sense that there's a power that's loving and caring and greater than me, and it's kind of it's kind of part of a 12 [01:47:00] step recovery, really, where I have to, um, I do have to I do have to have a sense that there's some power that's loving and caring and greater than me, because without it, I sort of do have, um a sense that, um I just become some, you know, egomaniac again. I quite like the, um the sense of relief I get from not being, um, [01:47:30] the most important person in the room all the time, you know, not explaining myself very well. Um, I get, um if I just rely on my own judgement all the time, it's fine, You know, I have quite good judgement now. I'm not really doing a lot of things that are wrong, and I don't I can live with myself and sleep with myself in the bed straight. Although I do like to curl up and cuddle a pillow. But the, um [01:48:00] But my sense of who God is is, um is really just that. Just the power that's loving, caring and greater than me. And it accepts me for for who I am and all my eccentricities and imperfections. I don't I don't, um But I do have a very strong faith. You know, I don't worry about a lot of things anymore, because, I, I don't think that God's gonna take care of things. But I do have a sense [01:48:30] that, you know, if something happens and something else will happen, and if something happens and it's bad, then something else will happen. It balances it out, you know. Hm. Do I have any other? I don't really have any, um, strong sense of religion. I know that there's churches that do lots of goods and Andrews on the terrace. Goodness, what a helpful bunch of people they are. You know, trying to find a venue to have a a an affordable meeting for a community. Where do [01:49:00] you go to you go to a church. Um, and some of them, um, seem to hold hold, um, hold a place for people. You know, there's other churches who I wouldn't give you the time of day for. There's lots of churches who would probably be happy to stone me, but I don't care about them. That's none of my business. You know, their life is none of my business. Their beliefs are none of my business, and I don't clutter myself with them. Um, I really have no interest in them. [01:49:30] I do have a sense of who I am, and it's important that I live within my moral code and do what's right for me. Because if I go outside of that, um, I won't be able to live with myself. And, um, you know, I think about what I did with all the, you know, drug using and everything else. You know, it was just a coping mechanism. All it was was a coping mechanism that I learned at an early age. So that then, um, [01:50:00] I could cope. I celebrate the kid, the kid who was at GIs Boys High School, dealing with all that I was dealing with. I celebrate his decision to get stoned. I don't think it was a bad choice, given the options available to me at that stage in my life. I think it was probably a sane move. Get shit faced until I could take responsibility for myself and get well, you know, I'm just glad I didn't suicide. I'm just so glad [01:50:30] I didn't suicide. So is there a god? Well, I don't know. I still don't know and I don't really care. But I do have a sense that there's some power that's loving and caring and greater than me. And if that is, you know me and four other people getting together or me and one other person getting together, then that's the full extent of that power. That's enough for me. It's as big as it needs to be today. I live a daily programme. I don't really need to worry about anything more. I just have to stay clean today, [01:51:00] and I just have to get up in the morning and make the decision that I'm Hamish and I'm an addict and given my life's experience, it's pretty natural that I might think some peculiar things during the course of the day. But, you know, I just hand them over to my higher power and ensure that I don't take action on them. And I try not to entertain my head too long about some of the things that are counterproductive to happy living. When I start to get self obsessed and think about, you know someone's out to get me, [01:51:30] I know I'm in a bad place and I'm probably best if I just let that one go as well. So, yeah, I've kind of learned over a period of time to not listen too much to my head and to go for good things about myself and other people. And I think that's where God lives. If there is a God, what do you think recovery has taught you? How long have we got? It's taught me so much, I think, um, [01:52:00] well, I think from from going through the steps and looking at my life and having the opportunity, the privilege really to reflect on it and get a different perspective other than the one that I went through with the first time, um, it's given me an opportunity to be more compassionate about myself and treat myself better. But it's also given me an opportunity to be more compassionate about other people as well. So as I look at my mom and my dad, you know, I see that, you know, Dad was a victim [01:52:30] of his circumstances and how he was brought up, And, um, you know, I'm not saying that he had a bad upbringing, but he was a product of that upbringing and learned certain ways to deal with life that perhaps, you know, less helpful for him as a as a as a man, Um, and Mum the same, you know, and them coming together. I don't think it was a, um A, um It wasn't a perfect union. Or shall we say So, [01:53:00] um, me being able to look at it in hindsight has given me and And also look at it with some maturity as well. You know, I can kind of see, um, that they did the best that they could. You know, the other things that it's given me is it's got, um, given me an opportunity to be a part of a community, a community of recovering addicts, and, um, which has meant that I've been able to be a part of other communities. So now I'm able to be, I mean, an active Well, it's pretty much happened [01:53:30] quite quickly with Peter and everything else, but I was able to be a part of a a, um, a lesbian and gay community that could kind of love and accept me as well. So the recovery community, then you've got the lesbian and gay community. And then I've been able to be a part of many other communities within the wider context of the world. Really? You know, understanding how the world really works. Um, but having being a part of recovery first is, you know, was essential. I I just [01:54:00] being in recovery has meant that I've been able to learn to forgive myself as much as others and, um, and move on the two thousands. Um, saw you doing quite a lot of, uh, sporty, sporty stuff with within the community. And I'm thinking particularly about the, um, different strokes. Wellington, the the swim team, but also the Asia Pacific Out games. Can you tell me about those? Yeah. [01:54:30] Yeah. Interesting times. The the gay Games happened in 2002 in Sydney, so backing out the bus to that because that's kind of where it all happened was that I was doing a particularly large project at work and was busier than all hell. And I, um I went to Sydney to between the Olympics and the Paralympics, and then I went up to Turtle Cove to go and have a holiday. And when I was up there when I was in Sydney, I picked up a brochure for the Gay Games. [01:55:00] That was happening in 2002, and I thought, Wow, the gay Games And, you know, I was the gay kid at school. I had never done anything sporting in my life. I was terrified by the showers, the whole experience of being in that area, you know? So the idea of ever doing anything sporting had never entered my mind. And then when I saw that, I thought, Oh, my God, I've got this hell busy life. I'm committed to my recovery, but it's really [01:55:30] busy as well. And I thought, I need to get some balance where I get some time for me to do something entirely for me. So, um, when I was up at Turtle Cove. I thought that in my infinite wisdom that I would do something in the Gay Games in 2002 and came home and wrote on a piece of paper and had a conversation with a dear friend of mine and says, I'm going to do this And I said, You write on your piece of paper what you're gonna do and lo and behold, we both exchanged paper. We both were triathlon. [01:56:00] Now I had never swam. I swam breast stroke at school, but not particularly, um, effectively. And I've certainly never done freestyle. I had never run in my life with my wrists down. I'd always I just had no idea how to run and cycling I had cycled, but merely to get to school and back and to get to get away from all those bloody, horrible kids at school. So I'd never, um, cycled like on a on [01:56:30] a bike that you were trying to go fast to race other people or anything anyway, so I was learned to swim. I went and had swimming lessons. I joined the running group um, the front runners group and I found another community, and they were wonderful. You know, I really, really loved the, um, running group. Nigel. Nigel, who was running the the running group, was just so encouraging. It was so wonderful. Even though I felt like I was a Heffalump running beside a bloody Whippet, he was amazingly [01:57:00] fast, but he was very, very gentle and kind. So I trained to go to that to go to the Gay Games in Sydney in 2002 and learned how to ride a bike and do all the transitions. And I went to triathlons. And you know what? As gay as Texas as I am, nobody cared. Nobody worried that this this very gay man and I am quite obviously gay was coming along to their triathlons [01:57:30] and competing, and people were very kind. And, you know, I got a flat tyre and people helped me change the tyre. And you know, all sorts of things I just had. I was surrounded once again by people who were just kind and wonderful. So I did that. And then Oh, and I competed in Sydney and I did quite well for myself. I had to swim the 1.5 KS with one arm because I'd I'd pop my shoulder. I'd pop my rotator cuff two weeks before him doing [01:58:00] sprints, so I couldn't swim that, um I couldn't. I was competing, but I knew that I wasn't going to win anything. But I competed anyway, and I did a really good run. And I had a fantastic 40 K cycle and 10-K run. I did really, really Well, um, but the thing about it was that the training and the whole experience of spending time on my own meant that, um, I was doing something specifically for me and physically, it was really, really good for me, you know, because my body started to change because I just, you [01:58:30] know, got more and more blimpy as I'd got in my forties. So I, um yeah, I had this amazing experience of learning how to swim and everything else. So you get yourself a bunch of because the other thing was a swimming coach was this woman barb at Kilburn pool, and she's just fabulous. She's a She's very, very comfortable in herself, Lesbian will say, and she's somewhat on the butch side and somewhat on the terrifying side as well. But She [01:59:00] was great. And, you know, she got us all swimming and our Speedos and everything else and as a collective group of, um of, you know, mixture of society. And, um, I felt more and more comfortable, you know, And I got to be a part of a community. I was also running with Nigel and the with the gay running group, so I sort of got a sense of how important it was to be a part of. And then, um, after that, we went to, um we There was a few of us went [01:59:30] to, um, the Asia Pacific Out games when they happened here in, um, Melbourne. So and that was in 2008, February 2008, and we were there competing, and I was I'd given up triathlons by this time because I'd had a very nasty incident with a steer in a rodeo where I, um I went to a rodeo in Canada. And for the life of me, I cannot I find it more useful to go to an event and be a part of, so I'll [02:00:00] always send, um email ahead of time or ring people up and say I'm coming to your event and I want to volunteer. I don't find it very useful not drinking and not taking drugs to go to an event and not feel and just feel apart from I like to be a part of, So the best way to do that is to volunteer. So I went to the rodeo and I said I'd volunteer well, I volunteered to help out, but I ended up in a row beside the competitors and I got talking to the competitors and, well, I used to ride when I was a kid on the horses [02:00:30] and everything else, and I thought there's 5000 Canadian dollars I could win if I could stay on a stair for six seconds or eight seconds. I can't remember how long it was. It didn't seem very long to me at the time, and I thought I could win 5000 Canadian dollars and that would really help me pay for my holiday. Well, I worried the next morning when I went down and there was only eight people on the stair riding list and I thought, Gee, there's 1700 people here. There's only eight people riding stairs. Uh oh. It's got to be harder [02:01:00] than I thought. And, um well, I, um the first steer ride I did. Um I, um they've got quite they're like, two between £1800 and £2300 are really big stirs. And I got quite pointy backs. And because my muscles were aligned for triathlons, not steer riding as soon as the stair started backing it, um, split my synthesis pubis, which is a cartilage behind [02:01:30] my pubic bone kind of thing. That when women give birth, there's lots of chemicals that are given to the synthesis pubis that make it, um, flexible and open up. Well, I wasn't giving birth, but my God, it opened up, and it was very, very painful. And needless to say, long story short, I, um, wasn't able to run or ride for, um, 18 months, so I could only swim. So, going to the games in Melbourne, I was only swimming, but when we were at the games, [02:02:00] Kevin said we could do this in Wellington, and I was like, What? What are you talking about? We could do this in Wellington. He says, Yeah, we could We could we could host this event, we could do the Asia Pacific Out games in Wellington. Well, I said no, we couldn't. It's madness. We we've just run ourselves ragged. And he said, No, no, no, We wouldn't do it like this. We'd do it like our way we'd do it our way. It'd be OK. Well, we did. We decided to do [02:02:30] it. And, um, there was four. There was David, David, Kevin and myself were the original four who put in the bid. And through the process of putting the bid in, I met a wonderful man who could read and write because he was a a, um, English teacher. Martin and Martin, um, proofread our bid document. And through him, um, we decided to form different strokes. So different strokes is, um it wasn't called that initially. God knows what it was called initially, I can't remember. We were trying [02:03:00] to be clever, um, by creating that name or they were Anyway, So we've got different strokes, Wellington. So if you get a bunch of gay men and lesbian women swimming in very little clothing because swimming you don't swim in a lot, it's either Speedos or a pair of shorts or something, and we've got all our body images and our age images and our everything else images. You know, it's a real, um it's very confronting for people to come together, so anything we can do to make that experience be easier is kind of what [02:03:30] I've been about. Essentially, I just believe that, um, anything that stops me from feeling isolated and alone and helps others feel a part of a community that loves and accepts them when they don't love and accept themselves as, um, kind of useful. So that's why I've continued to be a part of different strokes and continued to work. And then we had the out games here, and then we had the Rainbow Sport and Culture Weekend, which is happens every two years, [02:04:00] Um, here in Wellington as well. We share a Tams Cup and the DS W Shield. We swim between Auckland and Wellington, but a friendly competition. But basically it's about people just looking after their personal fitness. And you know, if you think about how much depression and how many people are mentally unwell, a lot of it can can be helped or assisted by feeling a part of a community that cares about them. And the thing is that of what's happening with all of the apps and [02:04:30] everything else where people are grinding and growling And, um, what the other scruff and everything else that you know that those things just don't lend to people feeling a part of. They kind of go back to what I experienced as a young person, which has just been used. And, you know, I don't think it's a way to build a community or for people to get some esteem for themselves, um, or their community. So anything that we can do through community groups, through sporting [02:05:00] activities, through people actually coming together and, um being able to share their lives in a meaningful way is kind of what, um really smokes my tyres and gets me out of bed in the morning and makes me feel good. So finally, what? What gives meaning to your life to my life now as really my friends. And it's difficult as I you know, as I get um, as you know, [02:05:30] um, all my all the friends, which I have who accept me as I am, really, I don't um I have a sense of myself, and it's OK, but living with a disease that tries to kill me, I have to, um, stay connected with, uh, people who are who are supportive. [02:06:00] And I've found that, um, lasting friendships. I mean, I'm a good friend to have as well, in terms of I put a lot into friendships. But, um, having friends is, um is, uh is kind of what keeps me going, really, I know, and it kind of always reflect on, you know, people, heterosexual couples, and they end up having families and everything else, and they think [02:06:30] that we as gay people, are going to end up all lonely. But, you know, we have a life of being a part of a community where we're not reliant on Children to give us a reason to live or to get up and get out of bed or get going on the day to take them to their football practise or their tennis lesson or whatever or their choir lesson. We live a life as part of a community where we, um, have [02:07:00] supported each other all of our years and been a part of each other's lives for many, many years. Um, and I don't see myself as being a lonely old gay man. I see myself as being a gay man who, um, will be a part of a community. So anything I can do to try and ensure that that community stays in good health is, um is useful, I think. And, you know, it's funny because I'm going to, um, after all [02:07:30] these years leaving Wellington and moving to, uh, live in Australia. But essentially, I'm going to live in Australia at the the largest. Um, well, the smallest Well, the medium size. I'm going to live at a Turtle Cove resort to manage the resort to try and ensure its financial viability, and that it's there for the next generation and that it's appropriate to that generation as much as anything. You know, we always have to be looking at any product [02:08:00] and anything that can, um, yeah, so I can I can be there And, um, I'll miss my friends terribly terribly, and it's the only thing I worry about. But you know what? I've got quite a few friends over there already in Cairns and in Port Douglas. And, um It's my experience that I, um I kind of, um I make friends quite easily, so it'll be OK, but you can't beat friends that have been with you through a generation [02:08:30] or two or a decade or two who kind of know you And, um, you know, I miss my sponsor terribly. You know, my sponsor has been my sponsor for 22 years. He's a wonderful heterosexual man who's, um, who's loved me through, um many, Many, um, times of working the 12 steps and kind of seeing me go through things. And yeah, it's really, um it's going to be an interesting time, but [02:09:00] yeah, I feel in good heart. And I feel like I've done lots of prep work in terms of, um um, cleaning house and, um, getting things in order for my own self. And, um, yeah, I look forward to being there to welcome the next generation to Turtle Cove and and welcome anyone who wants to come and visit.
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