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Glenda, you were involved in the activities leading towards homosexual law reform. Um, and you were living in Wellington at the time. Can you tell us how you became to be involved in those activities? I sort of tempted to say, Well, how could you not be involved? But I guess there were people that weren't I. I was fairly out. Well, I was very out, um, and had been out and about in Wellington for quite a long time. Um, I was in my early thirties, [00:00:30] and it seemed to be a no-brainer to me to be involved in this. I mean, some people may have felt that because it was largely about, uh, the legalisation of male homosexuality. You know, what did it have to do with women? And some women did think that, but also particularly once we had the sort of, um, the human rights aspect as well. I mean, you'd be stupid. Somebody would be really stupid not to support trying to ensure that both of those pieces of legislation went through. And of course, you know, um, I had gay [00:01:00] male friends as well, but, um, but I think everybody that I knew, uh, pretty much saw that this this affected us all, right? Were you involved in political things at that time? Anyway, um, I can't remember, particularly at that time, but I had been involved in political things over the years. I mean, I started when I was about probably about 20. I was involved in gay liberation, so that was very important to me. And, um went and did quite a lot of public [00:01:30] speaking with gay liberation groups. Went to speak to the police, went to some church groups, things like that. So I quite liked that kind of aspect. So with anything for me, it's always that, um I like it to be very personal. Um, that's how I operate rather than writing, um, submissions and things which are all very important. I know. But they've never been my thing so personal, as in you would rather talk to someone or discuss it with the with people. Abs? Absolutely. And and I think that I'm always [00:02:00] hopeful that even in some of the worst situations that by making some sort of a personal approach that sometimes that hits home and it's hard to people. I mean, obviously some people do not going to change their attitudes. But I think sometimes if you can put a personal face on whatever it is, it helps, Right? What were some of your successes taking that personal approach in the gay liberation? Well, that had been, as I say, going out to speak to different groups. And I mean, I can remember going out to speak to the police college. We were [00:02:30] a mixed group of men and women, and we went out there and it was really interesting because you got a measure of some of the people and the one of the guys who was in charge. I mean, it was horrendous, he said at the end. Oh, I think gay men. We should put them on an island and shoot them and lesbians. I'd like to watch, and that's what this man said right in front of his young recruits and everything. Having said that, one of the women came up later and sort of told us how brave she thought we were and that she was in the closet, so I always [00:03:00] just felt it didn't matter. You get the horrible stuff and you're going to get the people you'll never change. But maybe you just touch somebody, and I'm I'm always hopeful that it made a difference for her. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, when you were doing those activities, that was part of a gay liberation that was part of Gay Liberation Group. And what sort of other people were involved in that group was a large group. Um, average sort of size it was. I mean, some of the names are still around now. We had an event at the national library [00:03:30] a few weeks ago, and I actually ran into at least one person who was involved in that as well. So, um, it was a mixed group of men and women, I think at that stage, possibly more men than women. Um, most of us were quite young, and I think it was also quite exciting. You know, you got out there and you put your pink triangle badge on and you said, Yeah, I'm queer. And and it was still a little bit shocking to people because we're talking there, I guess. Sort of, uh, yeah, early seventies, and I was at Teachers College, and, [00:04:00] um, it was still raised eyebrows and I like that aspect of it. I think it's good for people to be shocked. It really is. So. And the event you were talking about a few weeks ago was the making history. That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. So? So, being part of that group mixing with with the guys as well was that helpful in terms of leading you into working on the homosexual law? Well, I mean, that was quite a few. There was quite a few years difference. And in between that, um, [00:04:30] I was quite more involved in lesbian groups later on. But II, I I've always felt that link. I mean, in a in the broader sense of the queer community, the first queer people I ever knew were drag queens. So for me, there's always these these links, you know, we we we do fit. Um, even if we've got different agendas sometimes. So, um, for me, um, you know, and having known some of the gay men, of course, it felt like, um, there is a connection here, and I want to support them. Um, how did [00:05:00] you meet the drag queens? Um, going to Carmen's coffee lounge and, uh, my girlfriend at the time and I went there. We've been to we've read about it or we've been told about it and we sort of went and were really scared. And they were very kind and we got toasted sandwiches. And then, uh, I don't know whether it was the first night. I think it was the first night these two women came up to us and said, Oh, are you lesbians? Or they probably said gay girls or something And we said yes. And they they were quite drunk. And they said, We'll come back next week and we'll take you to the gay [00:05:30] bar because we didn't know where the gay bar was. We were also under age now, Um when we thought, Oh, no, they'll never come back because they're actually quite drunk. Next week they were came back and they took us. Thank you. Tiggy was one. And, um so that was the kind of entree into very much being a world, you know, at the pub at the Royal Oak, it was very mixed. Men and women, uh, there and different bars for for different kinds of people, I guess, Um and we all drank [00:06:00] in the tab and bar mainly. And, um, so that was my entree into a sort of the the Queer Society of Wellington in particular, or or an entree. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I say thank you. It was, you know, because in those days it was very, very difficult to find out. Where did people go? You know, where did people go? And, um, we found out that, you know, you went to the pub, Um, usually on a Friday night. And then by the time it was nearly closing time, somebody would say, Oh, a party at my place [00:06:30] or somebody else's place where you didn't even know. And then you'd all tra off over there after the the pub, right? And what what memories do you have of, say, late seventies early eighties, perhaps, Of, um, of, um, people not being so accepting of you being a lesbian? Um, in the sort of late seventies early eighties, I lived in the row Valley and I was totally immersed in, um in lesbian culture. And by that stage, I would say and so I [00:07:00] actually other than having to go to work. I didn't mix in straight society almost at all, So it was quite an insular. And, um, I surrounded myself with people who were the same as me and politically active as well. Yes, I guess so. Not as much as perhaps some and again, Um, one of the things I did and I can't remember the exact date, but I had a little coming out group going at one stage. It was the first iteration [00:07:30] of a group that took off again later on called breathing space. Um, because I always felt very, very strongly that although I appreciated, we've got this little closed, well big, close community that we live in and we're safe and we enjoy each other's company and all That was marvellous things. But I always felt that it was often made very difficult for women to come out, and we made it hard. And I never could understand. You know, even if it was hard for us, why did it have to be hard for the next ones [00:08:00] that came along? What were we doing to make it hard? Um, I just think there were no bridges for people who particularly hadn't decided that was the hardest thing or didn't know there was no safe place for women to explore their sexuality in the sense of talking. I've got these feelings. Uh, what does this mean? Um, so there was a there was a lesbian line, and but I'm thinking that this group may have started just prior to that when there was a kind of a more [00:08:30] of a gay line and people would ring. And, um, you know, invite people to come to a meeting. And also, there were women around who you know, been around for a while, but still had questions. So I can remember a number of meetings where they came to my house and we discussed things. We talked about things, and it was that thing to try and say, Well, this in this space, you don't have to say I am anything you can come. You can talk about what it is that's worrying you or what What [00:09:00] you want to know, and nobody's gonna jump on you and say, That's a stupid question, or how dare you ask that question? That was the kind of environment that I tried to create, and there was a wonderful film that came out at that time. It was called word is out. It was an American film where they introduced, uh, and interviewed a whole lot of lesbian and gay men. And it was for me. It was really revealing film. Uh, and, um, we managed to get a copy of that somehow, and we showed that, uh uh, on on [00:09:30] a video. I think, um, and we had a discussion about it afterwards. So that sort of thing, that, um just to try and, uh, make a space for women to talk about how they were feeling, how were you advertising the group? That really was more word of mouth at that stage later on. And it would have been, um I've lost track of the years a little bit, but in the nineties, uh, the, uh, Darryl Walker and I resurrected that group again. And, um, that was, uh, advertised Lesbian [00:10:00] line provided us with some of the people that came to that, and some people reached us word of mouth as well weren't able to advertise in the newspaper. Um, I'm trying to remember. That's terrible, isn't it? I think mostly it came through lesbian line. Yeah, I think that's mainly where, because it was in my home, so I don't think I in that iteration I didn't advertise my home phone number in the earlier one. In fact, um, sometimes the phone number was put out on posters. So you got all these terrible phone calls. Not all of them welcomed. [00:10:30] That's right. But I was pretty young and tough then. I didn't really care. So if people rang up, would you sort of meet with them first and then yes, especially in the second iteration of the group. Um, that was very much the case that people would ring and would offer to meet up. And then I would go. I describe how I might look. Uh, the The funniest thing was there was one person, and we just held with laughter about this later and said, I'll meet you in a cafe or outside a cafe. You'll recognise me because [00:11:00] I'll have my 10 speed with me. And apparently this poor person spent a very long time wondering what this thing might be. Of course it was a bike. I mean, I thought it was a bike, but exactly this person had a rather interesting sense of humour, but that's what she told me afterwards, a 10 speed might be, but so often it was this, you know, meeting in a cafe somewhere talking. And, uh, and And if, you [00:11:30] know, the person felt that this was a sort of group for them, then they'd come along. I can remember one night, though, I got a phone, a call from someone saying that they were going to come. And then the person rang me and said, I'm driving round and round the block. I'm too scared to come. And it was like being in the control tower at the airport. Now, just come around the corner once more. Now, you should see some parks there. Just just park your car. Look, it's all right. We We are all here. Um, and and this person slowly came and knocked on the door. Ah. So [00:12:00] you were the only one really offering that at that stage? Yes. So two of us, that group, um and, um, I wanted it so that, you know, what I discovered was that many women coming to the group had come from marriages, and I had no experience at that. So I really felt that I needed someone who did the other thing that we used to do was that in every second meeting we would invite a speaker to come along. So, for example, if I had someone in the group that was perhaps having, uh, religious issues, then we would try to get a speaker [00:12:30] who had had a religious background or if they'd had Children, Whatever. We tried to match it up with positive stories of people, how they had faced their issues. Uh, and and you know how their lives were now, that sort of thing. And that was really because, I mean, you know, as one person or two people running the group, we can't represent every lesbian. That's not a possibility. But it was really helpful to women to hear that there were people that had had similar, um, issues or just backgrounds to them, and that it was still [00:13:00] possible to come through that and come out and all the way through was nobody was ever asked. Are you a lesbian? You have to identify. The only thing we said was that, um, if at some point you realised that that was not your identity, then obviously you wouldn't want to stay in the group, and that was but that was up to the person to self select. OK, did did you, um, run that during the, um, the years sort of around homosexual? Not really. No, that probably It happened previously, and it happened post [00:13:30] Post that. Yeah. Why was that? Um I think, uh, the first time, it just kind of, you know, we had AAA group of people that seem to want to come. And then that kind of disappeared. And then for ages afterwards, um, there wasn't such a group. And I think somebody from Lesbian Line may have contacted me and said, Look, actually, we've got a need. You know, that people are, uh, women are contacting us, and we've actually got nowhere to send them. And so that was really to think. Oh, well, actually, if there's a need and we continued [00:14:00] the group for about six years in the second iteration, and until it just seemed that there was not a need at that point that we stopped getting people being referred or wanting to come. I think things sort of relaxed more. And perhaps I don't know why they stopped, but, um, So we decided at that stage to stop the group. I understood some other people took the group on after that, uh, started new sort of. Um, but I don't know how long those went. Right, So in the, um and this lead up. 19 [00:14:30] say 98 4 98 5. Um, how how were you drawn into the activities? Like, um, like of the homosexual? Well, I guess you'd hear about them. You, you, you You'd hear what was happening, What was on? Um And I think, um, we were really quite protest minded, so it was good to get out there. I mean, I think many of us were just really angry. You know how and when you heard people. I think the thing that I found really quite tormenting [00:15:00] was when you heard some of these absolutely horrendous things that were said about us things like, you know, these people should go back to the gutter where they belong, or these people should be put on an island and shot. I mean, there was one minister, his name just escapes me. At the moment, he certainly was saying that gay people should be killed. Now, these are extreme views, but when you hear them. I mean, it either probably makes some people run away. But for others, it makes makes us angry. You have You were still in touch with your family. Your your [00:15:30] family? Yes, Yes, yes, yes. What was their reaction to it? Um, I. I have my mother. It was really just my mom and I. I don't think she had a particular interest in it, particularly. And I don't think I discussed it much with her. But one thing I did do, um when it became very apparent, for example, that there was a petition to try and stop the bill going through. And I understood that, you know, these petitions were being presented at churches and all sorts of things I wanted to see again. What could I do on a really [00:16:00] personal level? And so I wrote a letter, and I'm sorry. I meant to actually try and drag it out, but I haven't got it here. But I wrote a letter very personal letter, and it was something around. You know, when you hear about law reform when you are asked to sign a petition to stop this happening, um, you need to know that you know at least one queer person, and that's me. So when you sign, uh, this petition, you are signing my human rights away because this petition, if [00:16:30] if you sign it and, um and this whole reform process is stopped, it will mean that people will be able to, um, throw me out of my accommodation. There's a potential for me to be thrown out of my job. And you must always remember that. You know, one person, you probably know more, but, you know, at least one and that is me. So I wrote this letter and I sent it to everybody I could think of, sort of straight people I could think of. Uh, I sent it to the staff of I had been a teacher. [00:17:00] So a couple of the schools that I taught at who knew me people knew me well and sent them out like that. How many do you think you sent out? I don't know. Probably 20 or maybe something like that. It wasn't a huge amount, but I sent them out and I just decided that that was one thing, because you know, when people can put a face to someone. Uh, I think it does tend to make a difference. Did you hear back from anyone? Um, no, I don't think I did. Really? III. I did hear years later [00:17:30] that at one of the schools where I sent it, they were a bit shocked. And and it was I couldn't have been shocked that I was a lesbian because they all knew that. But they were a bit I don't think people, um, sort of in the mainstream or used to people actually saying things like that. And I mean, I still think then, uh, as possibly now, hopefully less Now, you know, there's one thing about knowing about someone being queer and being told and some people don't like that, you know, they think you should just be quiet and, you know, you can be what you like, but just keep it [00:18:00] to yourself. And I think in those days it was probably a lot more of that. So this was probably quite confronting for people. I think there were probably some people who, um, uh also thought it was great. I can remember, and I'm just trying. I and I really can't think of the year, But it was before law reform. I can remember wearing. I think it was a pink triangle, and I had it on my jacket. And, um, I work at the school where I was teaching. It must have been about in 1979 [00:18:30] something like that. So it was prelaw reform. But I think there must have been something going on was why I wore it. And I remember the principal asked me what it was, and I told him, and he said, Oh, you give me one of those. I'll wear that. And I can't remember whether I did in fact, give him one. But he said he would wear it, and and he was not a gay man. And so you got people sometimes. And he was somebody that it was. I was really surprised, really surprised. But, you know, you just sometimes you just don't know where your support comes from. [00:19:00] Yeah, exactly. Um, so with the, um, with you being involved in the the activities in Wellington Wellington. Uh, were you in any particular formal groups? Um, look, honestly, I can't remember, but probably not. I don't know that many of them were that formal. I think that we came together with the need arose. I mean, I think there were cause of people. There were calls of people who organise things. And I not wasn't usually one of those I I have someone that's slightly a [00:19:30] to meetings, so I'm more likely. I mean, unless it's something you know where you're having a discussion, a 1 to 1 discussion or things like that. But but but planning meetings and stuff like that, I have an aversion to them. I always have, and I still do. And so I'd be more likely to go along when something had been organised. So you weren't actively part of, say, the gay Task Force? Uh, no. No, I don't believe so. No, no. So, um, who were you connecting up with to to, um, get involved? [00:20:00] Largely it would be lesbian activities where they you know, people from the other women in the community would have said, Oh, something's on. And, you know, there were newsletters and things, so I would have found them out with that and and gone along, right? Can you remember any particular events that you went to? Um, there was a big March, and I, in fact, spoke at the end of that. It was a march that went right through the went right through the city and ended up at Pigeon Park. And there were thousands of people there, and I did speak again. I can't remember exactly what I said, [00:20:30] but it But it would be definitely around the this whole thing of freedom of, um, you know, having the right to be who we are and not being, you know, uh, I mean, I think the whole thing, that sometimes people don't understand or don't remember that sure, the legalisation of male homosexuality was very important. And But there was also this human rights aspect because leading up to those times, people were afraid, Uh, and I can remember being really afraid like when you went to get [00:21:00] a flat, you know? Did you look too queer? What would they say? And there were possibilities at times like that where I'm sure people didn't get accommodation because they they looked wrong. Uh, and there was a potential also to lose jobs, so I mean, there was a real fear about this, So this was an opportunity to think Well, we will be included in the human rights legislation. This has got to be positive. And so I think that that that was one of one of the driving forces as well. [00:21:30] Did you ever experience yourself being that threat of leaving of losing a job or No, but I was always really aware of being careful. So I I was a teacher, Um, in the early seventies or mid seventies, Really, Uh, a primary school teacher. And you know, when you're a teacher, little kids, when you've got little kids are like to come and drape themselves all over and sit on your knee. Quite natural. Lovely. But I was always really, really aware that what happens [00:22:00] if somebody comes in the room and sees this? What will they think? And and and will I, you know, be in trouble? Uh, and, um, and another incident in the school where I had this pink triangle with the headmaster, um, asked to wear it, and there was a woman who was, um, sort of the manager of the junior teachers. And her thing was, she complaints to other people that I had bought pink triangles to work and tried to force them on people, which was not the case at all. [00:22:30] So you know, you you you had these kind of experiences. So for whatever reason, there were certainly people who were were hostile. Um, but I didn't. I had a really positive experience. I'm just trying to think what year it was. And it might have been around homosexual law reform time. I'm I'm not absolutely sure, but, um, I was in a flat, and, uh, the tenants upstairs were harassing me. And the owner of the [00:23:00] flat was extremely supportive and knew that I was a lesbian. And, um although she didn't say that to the other tenants, she just told the other tenants they had to better behave otherwise. You know, they might be the ones that got thrown out and and And I can remember at that time being Oh, wow. So obviously, I did not have an expectation that a landlord would be particularly supportive of me as a person if they knew I was a lesbian. But she did know, right? But you weren't. Or particularly [00:23:30] closet. No, no, no, I wasn't. I totally wasn't. But But it was always that thing. If you went to go, you know, getting a new flat. And you were going for an interview. It was always a worry. Gosh, what will they think? Will I look too queer? Um or, um perhaps it's, you know, going for a job. I remember in the job that I have now, which I've had for nearly 30 years or various versions of it, Uh, really, really quite harrowing thinking when I went to go to the interview. God, Well, I think [00:24:00] I'm too little too queer because I wasn't going to change it. I looked how I looked, but I was really, really concerned that that might have a negative effect on me. Clearly, it didn't. How are you looking in those things? Um, I Look, it's a bit hard to remember that. So it's, you know, it's nearly 30 years ago, but, you know, probably I I'm not I don't know, short hair shirt, trousers, you know, You know, not when I look at it. I think, Oh, that's not that different. But when I compared with what the other staff members look [00:24:30] like then, um, then you see, Gosh, there was a difference. But the the work that I went into and the section that I went into, I It was very interesting that we were a wide variety of people. And I almost think that it may have been, um, a positive attribute. Not that I would be the token lesbian, but that I would I would join a team of people who would be serving a wide variety of the public. And I think we had a very enlightened manager [00:25:00] who saw that. That was a That was advantageous. We had people of different races. We have people of different ages. Uh, and I think that he saw that that was a positive thing. What, were you working? Yeah. So I think that that was very enlightened. Um, and I I'd bet that you weren't the only lesbian. No, probably not. No, probably not. I couldn't possibly say, but no, I think it's I think it's a sector. I mean, I think it's a sector, [00:25:30] um, that we're quite lucky to work. And I think that in general, the library sector is, um, is has been a fairly good refuge for queer people. Yeah. Yeah. So can you recall other events in the march around homosexual I think the one that really stands out was I was went down Lampton one lunch time and there was a couple of people standing on Lampton Quay with the petition, so and they were getting signatures. So [00:26:00] I waited very patiently in line and got up to it. And then it took the the the clipboard to sign it and then just ripped as many off as I could, tore them into pieces and stuffed them down my trousers. Now the two people, it was a man and a woman who had the petition. They got me and they jammed my arms up behind my back and nearly broke my arms. And I had fingernail marks across my arms for days afterwards. They were really rough. And, um and I them, you know, if they tried to retrieve, uh, the the torn up, um, [00:26:30] I would have them for assault. I probably could have had them for assault anyway, But they called the police, and the police said I needed to give the petition back, so I took it out and ripped it up some more and gave it back to them. It was always very memorable. I love that periodically I used to see at least one of the two people that had the petition on the bus, and we just a little bit of banter, bats and forwards, but, um, yeah, I mean, thought, Well, you know, I'm gonna fight back. I'm not going to just let them collect these signatures. Good on you. I mean, I suppose some [00:27:00] people would think that Well, that's not very democratic. If people want to sign, they should be able to sign. But it was kind of it was necessary to make a really loud protest about it. And, yeah, and and the people around, I guess nobody did anything. They just sort of were looking as my memory serves me. But it was very interesting how quickly these two people resorted to what I would have to call force and and violence against me. So that was kind of interesting. It wasn't very charitable. It certainly wasn't turning the other cheek. I'll [00:27:30] tell you that. And I, I think the other things, as as I said earlier, was during this time there was lots and lots of stuff in the paper. There were lots of letters to the editor there was also. I mean, I tortured myself. There were lots of articles and, uh, religious magazines and and you read some of those. And it was just absolutely what some things that were said were just I mean, shocking, horrible things about us, which were not true, um, and [00:28:00] and just sort of. And And I always thought, you know, if you've got people who are in the closet, they're reading this stuff, they might be very tempted to believe it. And I think that was extremely sad. So were you torturing yourself in terms of seeking out some of those magazines I wanted to know. And I was in an environment where we actually got those magazines. So I could I saw them and read them, and I made copies of lots of the articles, and just some of them were just appalling. You didn't hide them away? No, no, no. And the library that I was in at that particular [00:28:30] time, um, they were used by journalists. So, no, I didn't hide them away and and then and they were just mad. I mean, but you knew that, um, for the market that they were produced for that those people believed what was written, you know, and I and I suppose the thing I found really interesting at that time was again, um, the law reform it seemed to be that not even that being the major thing, but the human rights thing really seemed [00:29:00] to really, really upset some of these people. You know, that, Um the thought that I suppose it was the thought that they could be, you know, would no longer be able to say no to a queer tenant or a queer queer employee. I think some of those people were really worried about that. And so they really pushed that. And then when the petition was presented to Parliament, it was the most horrendous thing to see. You know, they're all up on parliamentary steps with all these boxes. They had sashes [00:29:30] around them and they sort of had my memory. They had their hands in the air, I think, and it looked very much like a Nuremberg rally. In fact, I think they shot themselves very much in the foot by doing that. Because when I think people saw those pictures in the paper, they were shocked. Were you there? uh, yes. Or were what they did was that was really interesting. The police had sort of divided up the grounds of Parliament and put sort of fences around, so they kept the two sides apart, But it was really shocking to see, but on the other hand, it, um I think [00:30:00] they shot themselves in the foot. And I think the other thing around that whole time is that I personally also was really shocked at the stance and the role that the Salvation Army played. Um, I, I when I'm in my sort of, um nice aside, I think, Oh, well, they got used by the religious right. But I know that that's not true, that they really were kind of. They put a respectable face, some of the more right wing religious groups. I think mainstream New [00:30:30] Zealand wouldn't have listened to them. But the fact that the Salvation Army was saying that this was wicked this was bad. This was wrong. I am sure that there was more support, got even though they didn't win, ultimately, but because people respected the and that was I had actually worked for the Salvation Army. Uh, I wasn't a member of the church. But I worked in their hotels for a number of years, and, um, I was really saddened by that stance that they took. Uh, perhaps I shouldn't have been surprised, [00:31:00] but, um, it was not very nice. And for a number of years, uh, right up to probably about five years ago, on the day that they collect on the streets, I normally tell the collectors, and I'm very clear to say this is not directed at you personally, but I want to tell you why I'm not going to give you any money. What do you say to them to say that, you know, during the homosexual law reform, the Salvation Army played a major role? Um, in trying to, uh, you know, deny us human rights and, um, occasionally, I've had people sort of shrug. And other times I've had people [00:31:30] say, Yeah, we know, and we never We didn't agree with that. It was awful. So, you know, some of the the mad articles that you read from sort of more sort of right wing sort of more on the edge groups. Um, it wasn't just them. It was, you know, major groups like the Salvation Army. Like the Catholics? Yeah. Did I? And who were the groups that you saw coming in and actually being allies with us? Um, who did I see? I. I don't know that [00:32:00] I saw groups. I mean, politically, I guess there were political groups. Um, but I think a lot of, uh, perhaps individual people emerge. And I think probably I know that there were people who came out in that time from the Salvation Army, for example, when they saw and heard and realised, Oh, they're talking about me. Some of those people had, but some of them actually came out. So, um, and I think there were probably, uh, sort of leftist groups that will probably be really supportive, but it's interesting, really. [00:32:30] It's hard to know because I think that, um, the feelings about homosexuality run very deep in some people. So I'm quite sure there would have been some people who you would consider to be liberal who weren't and some people who probably were quite conservative, who were supportive. It was never always quite what you expected. That was my memory of it. On the night that the third reading went through. So the bill went through. Where were you? I can't remember. [00:33:00] I'm sorry to say I have no idea now, but obviously somewhere where I was listening or watching Yeah, absolutely. But I don't. I Honestly I can't tell you where I was. I've spoken to two other people who say that they they were listening to it on the radio. At home. Yeah, I probably was as well, but I, I couldn't swear to that. Do you remember any celebrations later? No, I'm sorry. It's too long ago. There must have been there. Totally must have been. Absolutely. But I don't actually have any memory of that [00:33:30] for you. Do you? Do you, um, see that after it, you relaxed around things or in terms of the discrimination, um, I. I think what it does with things like that is it just adds to your pride. And even though I mean, um, you know, there's been discussions over the years that what what the Queer World was like when we were sort of under the radar and there was certainly bad [00:34:00] things about that, no doubt about that. But there was also really good things about that. It was kind of an in in circle or circles, you know? So there was secrets that nobody else knew about, and there was something quite appealing about that. And I think that by the mid eighties, even prior to law reform, but certainly after it, I think as we come, it came out more. Some of that disappeared. Well, quite a lot of that disappeared. Um, and I think I still think there's something lost with that. But I wouldn't [00:34:30] say we we shouldn't have. I mean, we needed to move on. We needed to come out more. And I think that after that, um, I think the world just moved on. I think by 85 you know, I think there was a lot. There was a lot more out. I mean, I'd come out in about 1970 uh, as a teenager, and particularly by about 72 especially so I'd been there prior to that, and that had been far more [00:35:00] sort of claustrophobic. Um, you know, we we lived very much under the radar life in general. Even if you were quite out, there were still a lot of things that you didn't do or um rules that you followed unwritten rules, but certainly by the mid eighties, that was really, really changing. Do you see that? It was an inevitable thing. In hindsight, it's easy to think. Yes, it was. But I still think we were still, you know, it was still something you had to fight for. I mean, even now [00:35:30] with the whole gay marriage thing, it's not necessarily, I mean, I'm not commenting on it, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing or whether it's a thing I want to do or whatever. But just that. I guess if people had said that a few years ago, probably most of us would have said, Oh, no, not yet. It won't happen yet and so sometimes things creep up and they happen. But I mean, obviously during the law reform, I mean, a lot of hard work had gone in preparing the ground for that, but it it also relies on those people that, um, make the political decisions to have the will to change [00:36:00] it. I mean, it was only obviously that there was enough, yes, vote that it went through, so, you know, a lot of work had been done. Preparation work had been done. You know, people have been lobbied, but not just prior to that, but for quite a few years, you know, and and and But, you see, I always feel you never know where those things are going to go, Because the way people vote say in the in the Parliament isn't necessarily what they think they might be totally not homophobic, but for their political career or for their party lines. [00:36:30] They can always take a different view. And you never quite know. After the bill went through, did you stay involved in gay politics in in any way? That, um not? Not really. No, um, as I say, I'm not a meeting person. Um, so then again, it was later, a few years later that we started the breathing space group again and again. It's that personal thing for me of wanting to make a difference in a very personal way, uh, on the ground sort of way. So that was probably the next thing I was involved [00:37:00] in. Do you think the, um that that the next stage when you brought the breathing space, um, back again that the changes in the legislation had that in itself, it helped some of those women come out. It's really hard to know, I mean, because the group went on for about six years and then kind of then we didn't get so many people. It's tempting to think that that would been all part of, uh, creating [00:37:30] a fabric of life where such a support group wasn't really needed. But I'm not sure about that. I mean, now we still hear I still hear stories of people that have struggled. But it was interesting because, um, certainly, um, post law reform in my place of work. I regularly had people coming to me, wanting to talk about coming out or somebody they knew. That was, um, you know, wanted [00:38:00] to come out or even somebody who talked about the fact that their wife had come out to me. So I mean, you know, But maybe law reform meant that they did feel confident to talk to me. Um, but certainly these were people who, you know, wanted to know how to change their lives often, and they still needed to make some sort of contact to do that. And because I was clearly visually obvious and was quite open about my sexuality. [00:38:30] Um, that that certainly was happening. Post law reform as well with your involvement, um, ever discussed at work. Um, I can remember when I first started in in In the Organisation where I am now. And it was one of the first few days, and I was sitting at my desk working and there was some people from another department, but we all sat on the same floor and they a group of them women were sitting near me having a cup of tea at a desk [00:39:00] and chatting, and I they were talking about their husbands and things, and one of them said, 00, my parents hated my husband when I first brought him home and someone Oh, yes, yes, yes. And so I thought OK. And I just stuck my head around my desk and said, You ought to try bringing a woman home and see what happens then. And they just laughed. And that and it was just a way to come out basically. So, um, again, those that that personal thing of saying something, making yourself a bit vulnerable, but also making it positive and being out there. Really? [00:39:30] Yeah, that's, um, kind of interesting. You're talking about that with the non judgmental approach. The approach, I guess you've taken, um, because, um, this week happens to be by visibility week, right? And I'm just wondering, back in the day, but being bisexual or or being lesbian, do you remember anything? Totally. I mean, uh, the view. And I mean, you know, I'm part of that, too. Was [00:40:00] that a person said they were bisexual. It was because they just didn't have the courage to come out or hadn't made their minds up. I mean, I think we had a limited view of sexuality and gender. As you know, I mean, obviously, you know, um, I always remember it. It's not quite related, but it sort of is that, um when I was first came out, I came out with a partner. We can we we were at school together, and there was somebody a lesbian woman doing a study. She was at university, and she was looking at the Kinsey scale. [00:40:30] And, uh, of course you know, one end is straight. One is is gay. And then the Kinsey scale does put grey in the middle, which was quite a revelation. And I remember I was at one end totally at the Queer End, and my partner was very, very close to the straight end. And we decided that probably this was not going to fly for long, which was the case. But in the in the breathing space, um, groups the issues of being Or were [00:41:00] they, um, in in? In the second iteration of that group, there was at that time a a bisexual women's group in Wellington. And we did have the policy that if a woman in our group said I am bisexual, we referred her to that other group and we did. That was because once that was out in the open, I mean that woman's, um I suppose what she may have wanted to talk about was something very different to what [00:41:30] we saw we wanted to talk about and a group that was for undecided. But it was sort of a coming out group if you like. So we made the decision, and I I think I don't know that it ever happened. Maybe it happened once, um and and we just made that clear to say that. You know if at some point you decide that you're not queer at all, you're straight. Well, we'd expect that you wouldn't want to come to the group. And why would you But that if you, um, have an a bisexual identity, we can then refer [00:42:00] you on to a bisexual women's group, which we thought was more appropriate. Whereas our group was quite fine. If people hadn't made up their mind, they didn't know and wanted to explore that. That was what that was for. Yeah, next year. Um, 2016 is the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform. Have you got any ideas for how you'd like to see it marked or I don't know that That's interesting, isn't it? Um, [00:42:30] I certainly think some really nice sort of cultural type events would be nice. Um, I mean, there's probably things that can't happen, but it would be wonderful if somebody produced a film or a play, something to commemorate something that was a major thing in New Zealand. I mean, a major thing in the world, actually, when you think about it, you know, because we've been recognised internationally when we've been followed internationally around it absolutely so I. I think that those sorts of things [00:43:00] are important. I mean, maybe some reunion type things would be fun. You know, people who were there, Um I mean, talking about it, you know what I mean? You're obviously doing interviews with people, but there's probably more people who might want to remember those times or not. I mean, what I'm I've been hearing from people is that there's quite a, um, a demand for a sort of intergenerational discussion around things. I think that could be really useful. And it doesn't just from the point of view of saying, Oh, you know, we're we're [00:43:30] older and wiser, Um, and you know, we know all about it, but I think it could be really interesting because I think there will be young, queer people who don't know about it. Um, and and it's that thing again. It's not to say Oh, look, look what we did for you, But actually it is useful for people to know that it isn't always the way it is now. I mean, there there are people who don't know that it was illegal for men, you know, there would be people who wouldn't expect that you might get thrown out of your job. Or, you know, you'd have to pretend [00:44:00] not to be queer, Um, for various reasons in society, although there's probably still some young people who know very well what that's like. Um, so I think that those things could be useful. And I think the exchange not just us telling them, but the exchange. How are they? How how did they find their world? Because I think it's different to ours Really different, Yeah, so I think there would be a great deal to be gained from that.
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