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Right. My name is Georgina Beyer. And in the, um, mid to late 19 seventies through to the early 19 eighties, uh, prostitution was part of how I earned my income. Amongst other things, uh, prostitution in those days was, um, a dangerous game, mainly practised, of course, by women. Um, working out of massage parlours, as they were called. There weren't very many girls [00:00:30] that plied their trade on the street. That was normally the preserve of, um, the drag queen scene. Um, the street walker scene. Occasionally there were some straight girls, and that that would be around there. And, of course, um, the ship girls. And that could either be straight girls or queens, actually, who would also service the, uh, carnal needs of, um, sailors, you know, on fishing vessels, merchant navy vessels [00:01:00] and stuff like that that would come into the port in Wellington at the time. It was it was a, um, a hard and dangerous and pretty unsavoury kind of, um, vocation to be involved with at that time. Um, always open to a lot of abuse. Um, the onus was always on the sex worker. Um, there was never any culpability [00:01:30] on behalf of the client. A lot of abuse, a lot of exploitation, a lot of, um, criminal elements. Who would, uh um, pimping I'm talking about, um, really like that, particularly for girls, um, who were under duress, as far as that was concerned. And, um, money was OK, I suppose. But, um, yeah, it was exploitative. And somebody, [00:02:00] especially from within parlours and things like that would be there to clip the ticket, so to speak, from the clients that you had, there was no protection. Um, certainly not when it came to condoms or anything like that. This was pre the advent of HIV and a I, I suppose. And, um And like I say, there was a lot of abuse that could go on, um, clients on sex workers, um, sex workers amongst each other, their pimps and their [00:02:30] minders and, um, a lot of exploitation in that regard. And there was nowhere you could go to get any kind of, um, support or or justice or whatever, because it was, of course, considered morally corrupt. And, um, it was illegal. Prostitution per se was not illegal, but soliciting was so you could say in a parlour be found with extraordinary amounts, you know, especially in the eighties and nineties [00:03:00] even, um, you know, with great supplies of condoms and suggestions that there might be more than just massage going on in a massage parlour. And, um and that sometimes could be an excuse for the police to arrest you and take you away and process you, Um, yeah, for those sorts of things. So it was very unfair. And then fast forward to the early two thousands, and you find yourself in parliament. [00:03:30] And this bill comes before parliament, which is the prostitution reform bill, the Prostitution Reform Act as it is now. But Bill, as it was then, was a member's bill, uh, promoted by Tim Barnett, who was a Labour um, MP and the then, uh, Helen Clark Labour led government. And so it was a private members bill, not a government bill. And, um, essentially, it was seeking to address [00:04:00] the injustices that exist within the sex industry. And for the sex workers. It was also a huge health and safety issue. Um, because, you know, the oldest profession in the world, um STIs STD S Um HIV, um, all of those kinds of things were, you know, very, um, prominent. As far as being health issues, occupational health and safety was [00:04:30] a major force behind, um, behind it. And also, um, the bill promulgated the idea that instead of being, um, punitive, which is where you would think people would mainly mainly go that we should perhaps look at it differently to address the issue and provide a fairness and equity and, uh, some rights, um, for the sex working industry. And, um and I guess [00:05:00] in a sort of a nutshell is, is is what the prostitution reform Act was about because it was hugely controversial. Um, you know, the mainly conservative New Zealand was not ready to be confronted with this kind of, um, liberalisation decriminalisation of sex work. I mean, um, but it was really a matter of, um the public looking in the mirror and saying, Well, it's been brushed under the carpet, essentially, [00:05:30] in a legal sense for so long. Um, it hasn't addressed the issues of abuse, the issues of health and safety within the sector. Um, for anyone who comes in contact with that or accesses the services of that industry, and it's as important for the clients as it is for the sex worker that it would be a safe, functioning environment. And I'd have to say that at that time, um, we had no New Zealand had no, um, facts and figures [00:06:00] that were reliable on how this industry worked. And, um, or being able to monitor, um, how it was working and that, uh, you know, people's needs and and things were sort of being properly and more formally addressed. So that was part of the reasons for it. I mean, so the bill was introduced and drawn from the ballot, you know, which is always a bit of a lottery in Parliament. And, [00:06:30] um and it came up for its first reading. Oh, gosh, what year? 2000, 2001. I can't quite remember when it came up for its first reading. And of course, by this time I'd been elected into Parliament in 1999. And, um, when I got up to make my first reading speech on the prostitution and I had sort of obviously Tim had said, Oh, it's gonna be great having me, um, around to, um, support the [00:07:00] bill and I on the face of it did support its intentions. And when I made my first reading speech, I can remember saying, Mr Speaker, I guess I'm the only member in this house that's ever worked in the sex industry. Nobody denied that and was able to speak from a, um, a position of experience about it, Um, and that you know, we could right the wrongs. I think here that really [00:07:30] we needed to address this issue in a in a, um, sensible and intelligent way as a country and albeit that it will be difficult and people will be going taking huge, you know, gulps of, you know, Good God, what are we doing here? Um, kind of thing. But, you know, it's not turned out to be as, uh, horrible and as bad. There's some elements of it now that need to be addressed again. At that time, Were there any [00:08:00] other countries in the world that had, um, either decriminalised, um, sex work or legalised it? Don't think legalised it so much. Some one or two of the Scandinavian countries. I think we had a slightly more liberal outlook on it, but there were still some punitive effects of it, but to criminalise someone for being a sex worker, Um, and for clients to have gotten off scot free was just sort of really quite intolerable when it came to the law. Because it does take two [00:08:30] consenting adults in this financial transaction that occurs regarding sex. And that's essentially what it was. The difficulty is, is that a lot of, um, a lot of transmittable sexual diseases, um, can occur. And, um, the kind of clientele that accesses the services of sex workers are not your plastic Mac brigade. They are ordinary men and women. Um, who [00:09:00] you know. So the husband might have a flirtation somewhere overseas or within New Zealand or whatever. Um, could pass on anything unwittingly to a spouse or a partner. And, um, with HIV being particularly highlighted as, um somewhere where safe sex was the message we were putting out, Well, you know, how can you guarantee that you're going to get safe sex if you're accessing sexual services of a prostitute? [00:09:30] Um, and no, uh, health matters are being considered IE wearing condoms, et cetera, or having non penetrative sex or whatever you know, it might be, um, it just as one aspect of it. Um, so no, there weren't any other countries around the world at the time that were looking at approaching the issue of prostitution the way that this bill was, um um, going to address it. [00:10:00] What was the debate like in parliament? It was It was, um, difficult. It was, um, and not just in parliament, but I mean throughout the country. It was sensational, um, around the country and a hugely divisive, um, and extraordinary amount of work and lobbying and, um, debate and discussion that occurred, I think the campaigners for prostitution reform, Catherine [00:10:30] Healy, and became the prostitutes collective Other women's organisations, even the National Council of Women, if I remember rightly were supportive of it. Some of them wanted to have caveats around it. But there was, you know, it was just about really a matter of all or nothing. You know, you just can't sort of pick cherry pick pieces of it. And I think eventually the public, because we had actually been through the country and the world, I guess, had been through, um very, [00:11:00] very, um, comprehensive debates around things like HIV and a I DS and finally getting that right? It was not a gay disease, you know? I mean, there were so many people around who were preferring it that it just belonged to them, and it would never affect us. It's not true, you know, of course. But I think because in the New Zealand context we've been able to get through those debates and handle it very well, actually, [00:11:30] at the end of the day, when it came to addressing these kinds of issues, uh, we were probably a little more prepared for a robust debate, No doubt. Um, you know, over something like prostitution reform where, um, common sense. At the end of the day, I think won out. It was politically it was a nightmare, I think, to try and pull together for Tim, particularly to try and pull together enough support because it was going to be a conscience [00:12:00] vote, not a party vote in the parliament. So each individual MP will make up his or her mind as to whether or not they would vote in favour of it. And so that required a huge amount of lobbying and, um coercing, I suppose, want of a better term from, um, Tim and his team to persuade other members of Parliament, um to not make such a political decision because it's easy, you know, because every electorate was probably around saying, [00:12:30] Don't you vote in favour of that bill, you know? And so many MP S put their political, um, lives on the line, I think in voting in favour of it, I was one of them. Of course, I was an MP for a rural conservative electorate, and they sure as hell didn't want me to be supporting prostitution reform. And so I took the political risk to vote with my conscience, not for what was politically expedient, uh, for me at the time. [00:13:00] And, um, that's not the only bill I voted like that on, I must admit. But, um, it passed its first reading. I can't remember what the ratio of votes was, but it was probably very slim. But it passed its first reading, which is probably the easiest thing for an MP to agree to be able to do that. Because if you get it to a select committee, then you get the whole public debate feeding into the select committee process, [00:13:30] and so and that that's democracy working. And so that was good that we got it over that hurdle into, um, you know, into the select committee. The select committee process went on for a long time. I did not sit on the select committee, so I wasn't really present for I think I might have sat in once or twice to fill in for another MP. Um, on on that committee to hear submissions again. It was robust, difficult debate that occurred. [00:14:00] Uh, the select committee process came to a conclusion. The committee reported back to the house. It came up for its second reading in that period of time. Um, a think tank called the Maxim Institute in Auckland had recruited. And they are a conservative think tank, Um, with a bit of a religious conviction about them, um, they, um, had recruited a, um [00:14:30] a doctor from the United States, a doctor, Melissa Farley, to come over to New Zealand and conduct some research into the sex industry in New Zealand. She only had a very short period of time to do it, and, um and she, uh, she had done some work and come up with some, um, very suspect. Um calculations and and analysing, you know, analysis. Because, like I have [00:15:00] mentioned before, there was very little, um, factual data on how the sex industry was operating in New Zealand anyhow, and anyhow, So she, um Doctor Melissa Farley lobbied. Parliament, of course, lobbied all the MP S around Parliament, and she went on a bit of a crusade. And she did come and talk to me at one point and put up some quite compelling arguments and debate which gave me pause to think about my support [00:15:30] for the bill. And we were coming up to the second reading debate in the house, and she had just timed it. I mean, of the same week, I think she'd come up and I was ang over, and I can't remember the details of what she told me, but she'd thrown some figures in my face and and I was sort of taken aback by them and she, you know, a reputable doctor and so on and so forth. And so II I took her at a word [00:16:00] et cetera of it. And the word was getting out that I was starting to waiver on my support for the second reading and Tim was very concerned, and so was Catherine Healey and various others were very concerned that I might not vote that I would vote down the second reading. And if that happened, then what message would that send? Not only to the rest of the politicians in the house, but to all the anti prostitution reform people out there. It would be a huge victory for them. [00:16:30] Uh, Peter Dunn's um United Future Party had quite a number of MP S in Parliament at that time. Larry Baldock, Murray Smith, um, and various others. But I just remember them, particularly because they sat next to me in Parliament. And, um, the word was scuttle but was going about the Parliament. That Georgina buyer might be voting down the second reading, and I remember United Future got very excited because they were dead against the bill. And, um, we're getting very excited. And they all rushed to the chamber when [00:17:00] it came to second reading. And we were waiting with bated breath for my speech to torpedo the entire bill by getting up and saying I wouldn't, um, vote in favour of it. But because Tim and Catherine and them had heard that I was being persuaded by doctor Melissa Farley that perhaps I shouldn't support the second reading of the bill. They got a person to come and visit me, who had agreed to be part of Melissa Farley's research [00:17:30] team when she got to New Zealand, and that that person had spent not much more than a day or two working with her before she decided that this woman had no idea what she was doing and that what she was doing was, um, skewing and quite inaccurate on what it was. She was, uh, getting together and stopped doing the work. So they sent this person whose name escapes me to visit me and just tell me what her experience was with Melissa Far while she went around doing [00:18:00] her her, um, very quick research on, um, pro institution in New Zealand. And, um and that indeed, she had, uh, been very misleading in some of the figures that she'd come out with. So I get, uh, get up to do my speech in the second reading, and I started out sounding very grim and do and that I don't know whether it was, and then eventually I. I sort of, um eventually I turned around, and much to the shock horror of the United Future in particular, [00:18:30] I absolutely slammed. And in fact, if I hadn't had the protection of Parliament IE in the chamber saying What I said, um, I could have been considered to have been defaming Melissa Farley. And, of course, I voted in favour of the second reading, had a second reading and went through the committee stage, Um, without going through all the boring process of how parliament works. But that bill came in. I think you may need to correct this, but I'm sure it was either its first reading happened in either 2000 [00:19:00] or 2001, but it didn't pass into law until 2003. And, um, so it transcended an election. We had an election again in 2002, and, um, prostitution reform didn't get its second, its third reading its third and final reading until after that at its third and final reading, Um oh, God, the The atmosphere in Parliament was absolutely electric. [00:19:30] The the chamber was packed to capacity, um, upstairs in the gallery and everything. And, um it was absolutely We had no idea if it was going to pass. Um, the Parliament was utterly divided on it. You could just couldn't tell where it was going to go. And we get down to the final. A third reading. Um, a third reading of, um, a bill in Parliament usually consists of 12 10 [00:20:00] minute speeches. So only 12 people can, um, can speak. And I had no I had not intended to speak in in that reading, but Tim came to me. He said, You've got to get up and speak And I said, Well, I can't The slots have already been allocated and, you know, he said, No. Someone's prepared to, um, to share five minutes, you know, 45 minutes of their time, so that you can at least give a five minute speech. So I was unprepared. [00:20:30] I hadn't prepared for a speech or anything like that, but, um, I agreed, and something was very nervous. I can remember another transgender figure, an Auckland figure. Mama Strickland, who's passed away now. Sadly, Um, and Mama Terry had also been recruited, um, by the Maxim Institute in Auckland to, um and she was against prostitution reform, and she was sort of put up, in my view, to counter me in Parliament who was for it. [00:21:00] And I can remember Mama sitting in the chamber that day sort of directly opposite upstairs in the gallery from where I was sitting or, you know, looking at me with daggers and, you know, and all of that sort of thing. I was shocked that she was against prostitution reform because she was a sex worker herself. And she worked amongst the sex industry in South Auckland. Um, in particular up in Auckland. And, um so I was shocked that she was not in favour of it and couldn't see the merits of what we were trying to [00:21:30] do with this bill. My five minutes speech came along and I had no idea what I was going to say, and I got up and I just asked the question allowed and I said, Why do I support this bill? And I just went off into this Probably 3.5 minutes of the most fabulous parliamentary theatre that you've seen. I support this bill for all the prostitutes who I've ever known who were dead before the age of 20. I support this bill because I cannot stand looking at the hypocrisy of a country [00:22:00] that cannot look at itself in the middle, you know, on and on and on. Um, I went in this powerful considered straight from the heart. Well, I finished my speech and I sat down, and there was this absolute silence in the chamber. You could have heard a pin drop as everyone sort of took a breath. And then this thunderous ovation, absolutely thunderous ovation that most people in the gallery rose to their [00:22:30] feet. It was the most incredible sort of ovation, you know, that girls ever had, you know, in that sort of sense, and it was sort of quite remarkable. But there were a few more speeches to go. Mine was just one of them. Long story short. My speech and the speech by our Pacific Island woman um MP Winnie la. Now Winnie, of course. You know, um, and she ended up voting, and she put up a very good argument in her third and final reading speech. [00:23:00] My speech and Winnie's speech changed the minds of two possibly three MP S sitting in the chamber that day that particular moment and changed their minds to vote in favour of it. And with that support and with one abstention from Ashraf Choudhary, one abstention, the Prostitution Reform Act passed on an abstention that you couldn't get it any more slimmer [00:23:30] than that. So it was victory for the Prostitution Reform Act, and it passed into law. Well, you know, of course, the world was going to fall in, you know. God, this is the end. You know what? You know, we've become the sixth capital of the world and da da da da da da. But of course, we're 10 years down the track and nothing of the sort has happened. One of the areas of prostitution reform that unfortunately, we did a once over lightly, um, during the select committee process and did not address at [00:24:00] all Well, um, as the matter of street prostitution, which has still been a major issue, particularly for Hunters corner in South Auckland and until the earthquakes, um, also a difficult issue for Manchester Street in Christchurch. But, um, I think there needs to be some amendment around that, and I think the sex industry sector has had ample time to tidy that up and meet [00:24:30] society halfway about the street prostitution thing and because they haven't been able to clean it up, I think I think it's disgusting and disgraceful the way the street workers, um, are behaving in South Auckland. It's not necessary to be like that in these more liberal and safer times. So it is a choice that they have had that that's just a bit, you know, sort of antisocial. Well, you know, um, you either use the liberalisation and the generosity [00:25:00] it is given to that, um um industry, um or you lose it. And if they don't watch out that it will become more punitive. I mean, part of the of what the Prostitution Reform Act has done has empowered local authorities to designate where, um, sex work can occur. Not that it can't, which is what many local authorities wanted to just ban it completely. Wake up in the real world, it does not go away simply because you say so. [00:25:30] They don't call it the oldest profession in the world for nothing so better that you have a grip on it, that there is some regulation around it, and that you are able to monitor it and ensure that people who are either working in the industry or access its services are, um, getting fair. And, um, you know, justice, I guess you know, as you know, comes to a pass in there. But I think, uh, the the rest of the world, I think, finds [00:26:00] if they ever come across these debates in their own countries often now look toward the New Zealand legislation. It was world leading, um, at the time, uh, scary. And I think we've proven in our country, uh, that it has not turned out to be the, um, horror that people that the naysayers to it thought that it was going to be. Now we are, um, some islands down at the bottom of the world. Geographically, our situation is different to that of somewhere like Europe. I think even Sweden's gone more [00:26:30] punitive as opposed to more liberal on prostitution reform. Um, in their country, I remember going to Copenhagen to speak at a university conference. I was asked to go and talk about our experience with prostitution reform and was quite surprised to hear that something like Sweden was, um, going to, um criminalise clients as opposed to, um, uh, becoming more liberal about it. But the situation in something like Europe is different. They've got the economic union and, you [00:27:00] know, and the euro and all of that, and they've got borders that people can easily cross. So the matter of sex trafficking and all of that sort of thing is a very major issue. It's not quite so. I mean, I think we made some amendments to our immigration act here that just doesn't allow people to just flood in just because, you know, you can go and be a sex worker in New Zealand and it's OK, There'd be many of the naysayers out there to say that's exactly what's happened. Just look at Auckland and look at all the Asian prostitutes and things up there like that. No people, you [00:27:30] know, fulfil you cannot, you know, get residency and everything here just because you want to be a sex worker. Sorry, it doesn't work like that. Um, we did put measures around that in the immigration act, you know, through amendments, so that you can't come to New Zealand just like that. I think we've got a working population in New Zealand of around 6000. Um, perhaps who are in the sex industry and the sex industry is more than just prostitution, of course. And, um, as distasteful as it may be to many people, I [00:28:00] think that the way New Zealand has handled, um, sex work and prostitution is an intelligent and common sense way approach. Um, which, you know, is not being ignored by, um, archaic laws of the past, Um, that there is protection there for all involved and that there are and that with with, um, liberalisation comes a huge amount of responsibility too, And, um so yeah, there it is. [00:28:30] You know, a lot of people still ask me now, do you still stand by your support for prostitution reform? And my answer is yes. Of course I do. I'd be a bit of a bloody hypocrite if I turned around and said, Oh, no, I don't think I should have supported that. No, of course I do. Um, you know, I hated prostitution myself. I hated working in it. Um, I you know, I don't like it, but, uh uh, you know, for myself and some of the experiences that I had as a prostitute. Um, I hope [00:29:00] that, uh, people who work in the sex industry these days never have to endure what I and many of my generation and those who have gone before us had to endure. Um, with nowhere to go for help or safety. And, uh mm. Within the space of a year or so, we also had the, um, the civil Union Bill coming in. And I know it's a bit of a long jump to go from prostitution to civil union, but, I mean, that was another. [00:29:30] Um, it's not such a long jump because we dealt with that particular government dealt with two. Well, actually, again, um, civil union became a government bill, but it started out as Tim Barnett's members, Bill and, um, and it wasn't necessarily had to be civil union. It's just that when we debated around, you know what to go for, as opposed to marriage, et cetera, and amending the marriage act and so on and so forth. And we did have that debate during civil union and all of that. But they were great. You know, A lot [00:30:00] of people would sort of say, Ah, social engineering and um, you know, whether it be prostitution, reform and, um and and then what became civil unions? And, um, they were both venal and divisive debates that occurred at the time. And I don't think that the gay community in New Zealand and certainly the gay friendly community, um, in New Zealand ever thought that we would see the kind of debate again that we had endured through homosexual law reform [00:30:30] in the in the 19 eighties. But sure enough, um, you know, our detractors of the day, um, had just crept away somewhere, and they came out full force when civil union came along. Um, people, um, you know, wanted to play real politics with the civil Union thing. And, of course, it had the emergence of, um, outfits like the Destiny Church and Brian Tamaki and all the Christian conservative right wing fundamentalists [00:31:00] who found a platform by which they could jump on. And, um, you know, to further liberalise already, you know, somewhat liberalise gay related matters. Um was just to be on the pale for them. So they were pushing, talking about family values. And look at this country, you know, going down the tubes, you know we've got prostitution reform, and now they want the gays to be able to get married and have civil unions. It was a very venal debate at the time. I can remember during [00:31:30] civil unions, right from the get go, um, from its first reading onwards every day. Um, during the debate on civil unions, um, a little group of exclusive brethren would come and sit in the gallery at Parliament, and they would go and wrote us, you know, So you have, you know, four or five or a few of them, half a dozen of them sitting up in the gallery, just sitting there passively sitting there, but their presence and the way they dress, you knew that they were, um, exclusive brethren. [00:32:00] And it was just their passive protest. I guess. Um, this is this is a church organisation that apparently doesn't get involved in politics, but felt so emboldened that they must get involved this time around. And who was to know what they were going to do in 2005? But, um, but they got found out by the greens, and, uh, but anyhow, there they were, and every day they came into the chamber. You know, um, for the afternoon sessions and the evening sessions of parliament, and I'd sometimes walk [00:32:30] into the chamber to go and do my lag in the house or whatever. And, um, I'd see them up there and just to sort of, you know, piss them off. Really? I just wave at them. Hi. Yeah, I'm here. And on some occasions, I'd actually go up into the gallery and sit down and welcome them to Parliament. Um Oh. Hello. Nice to have you here. I hope you're enjoying the debate. It's getting a bit boring, isn't it? You know, and they just about sort of, you know oh, recoil and horror that, um, I was within their body [00:33:00] space. You know, that was sort of the feeling that I got sometimes, but, um, yes, no. Every day they they would turn up until the bill passed. I can remember when the civil union bill had its third reading. And again the chamber was absolutely packed to capacity. And when the final vote again, it was a conscience vote. The parliament, I cannot remember. I think it might have. It might have passed. It was a slim [00:33:30] you know, maybe no more than 10 votes. Maybe you'd need to go back and check the facts on that. But it was a slim, uh, passage for civil union, um, on a conscience vote. And when it passed and I can remember when the results of the vote were announced in the chamber, the chamber erupted and everyone up in the gallery who were supporters of the bill all flew to their feet. And suddenly there were these little patches of a couple of people who were against the bill, and they suddenly felt completely overwhelmed [00:34:00] by the amount of people in the chamber that day that were in favour of it. It was another great moment and another great move forward. And, um, you know, for, uh, you know, the common sense really of, you know, yes, in the gay community, there's obviously we we're now, um you know, we're in the midst of the debate over the marriage equality legislation that Louisa Wall has got before parliament at the moment. And, um, [00:34:30] I know that there's been, you know, obviously you've had the Bob McCrory and and, um, you know, and others Garth McVicar and people like that have spoken out against marriage equality. But I do not sense the same degree of moral outrage throughout the country over, um, marriage equality as there was over civil union. And, um, although even in the gay community, there's a preference for marriage rather than civil [00:35:00] union, um, that if we had not had civil union, it wouldn't have provided the leverage that marriage equality is just going to It's going to be a Dole. I'm sure it's going to pass very easily, Um, in comparison to what civil unions in comparison to homosexual law reform, you know so incrementally. Over time these things change. But I do give you this warning. In some respects, law is easy to change. [00:35:30] Um, attitude takes generations and that complacency can never be allowed to pervade. Once you think you've got something like that, it only takes a change of government and a vote by a simple majority to repeal these things. So don't think that once these things pass that they're just there forever. Just don't get complacent about that, Um, attitude. Well, I congratulate [00:36:00] New Zealand for their attitude regarding marriage and and civil unions and such things as, um being something not to be afraid of anymore that the fabric of society is not going to unravel, as some would want you to believe. Uh, simply because you provide equality for all its citizens, not exclusivity for some of its citizens. Did you ever sit on any of the select committee hearings for the Civil Union One? [00:36:30] I sat once down in, down in, um, Christchurch. I filled in for a because the Justice and Electoral Select Committee, I think, saw the civil Union bill through. And it so happened that Tim Barnett chaired the Justice and Electoral Select Committee as well as he was the senior government whip. I think at the time, too, he was a whip at least. Anyhow, um, and I went to Christchurch one day to fill in for select committee hearings down there. I was barely at the [00:37:00] table five minutes before I was spitting outrage at some submitter had come forth who spewed out this absolute venal tirade. He was absolutely horrified to be sitting and having to submit to the likes of me and to have Tim Barnett sitting at the head of it. He just thought it was outrageous and just some of the horrible, horrible things I had to leave the room because I would have disgraced myself by just going right off. And that would be most unseemly for [00:37:30] a member of Parliament to do that. But, um, I was, uh, you know, deeply offended by this man, and he was deadly serious. He was almost shaking with rage that, um you know that people like me particularly and Tim were even in our parliament, were even allowed to be. You know, this was the kind of and I thought I thought all that sort of stuff was gone, but it wasn't. There's one thing I'll say [00:38:00] in their defence is that, um I will defend their right to even Brian Tamaki and Destiny Church. And that, horrible enough is enough march that they had through Wellington. Um, I think you know that march. That man had no idea what effect that that particular protest that destiny Church had in Wellington, where 8000 of them turned up to parliament to protest against civil unions and uphold family values. And he held a sort of evangelical, you know, [00:38:30] meeting out in front of Parliament, where I stood there for hours protesting with my rainbow flag standing on the you know, the steps of Parliament. And, um, it felt like you were at a Nuremberg rally. That's what it felt like, the fist punching in the air, the black uniform thing that they were wearing and all of this kind of stuff. It was horrible. And I actually think instead of helping their cause, he and the Easterly Church helped our cause because [00:39:00] when the public saw that they were offended by the way he presented themselves, not what he was debating, I didn't agree with what he was debating. I would defend his right to say it and to do it and to protest. We live in a goddamn democracy. But the way they presented themselves not only to parliament, but obviously through media to the nation. The nation was not impressed with that. And they did not like the imagery that he presented that day. [00:39:30] I had people in Lampton Quay and offices who were emailing my office as they watched the march go through town, who were absolutely outraged and insulted and offended at what they were seeing. And they were in disbelief and they were sort of, you know, emailing and their support. And I've heard of people who were brought to tears on the street when they saw this imagery Men and boys marching in Roman formation down Lampton [00:40:00] Quay and and down towards Parliament, Um, punching the air like, you know, um, doing Nazi salutes. That's what it sort of looked like. That's not what they were meaning, even if it was black power salutes. And this, um, you know, enough is enough. Enough is enough. It was a pretty powerful day. And when I compare that protest and the imagery it portrayed and you know and its intention [00:40:30] and I compare that to the over the foreshore and seabed which was probably the largest protest that's ever gone to parliament, angry but awesome and dignified and, you know, that was palpable. That was the for the foreshore and seabed. Um, I give points to the for the foreshore and seabed over and above what Brian Tamaki and Destiny Church were [00:41:00] trying to present over civil unions. And again, you know, the world did not fall in because we passed civil unions. And indeed, if anything, it's probably slightly embarrassing that not that many people, really, in the scheme of things has have used the legislation for civil unions. I mean, maybe a couple of 1000 at most 1500 maybe have used it. And civil unions, of course, was not exclusive. It is inclusive. It was for anybody who wanted to, um, have their [00:41:30] partnership solemnised in that respect. And let's remember that marriage at the end of the day is a civil action. It is a marriage licence that is civil. Um, but the gay community and others, you know want to go for marriage equality, and that's fine. I can respect that. But I'm also perfectly comfortable with Civil Union. I think getting is, you know, up to each individual person how they feel about that. I don't [00:42:00] have a huge amount of respect for the institution of marriage in itself. And, um, and why do I think that the churches should win out? Because that's the connotation that marriage has. Of course, marriage is not about the church. The church part of marriage is an add on. It's a ceremonial thing. It is to acknowledge that, um, you know, religious side of things, if that's your persuasion. But marriage technically, legally in every other way at the end of the day is a certificate of [00:42:30] registration, that you are married and that it's a legal solemnization thing. And that's a civil matter. Civil union during both the civil unions and also the prostitution reform. How were your labour colleagues were? I mean, was it a supportive caucus? No, no, not by any means. Um, the leader supported them, of course. Um, so that was helpful. Helen Clark. Uh, but, no, There were elements of labour. [00:43:00] Most certainly. You just need to go back and look at how how people voted in the parliament, Um, over that to find out a few names that I can think of who are against it. John Clayton. Cosgrove. Dover. Samuels. Um, Ross Robertson. Um, who else? Um oh, yeah, probably a few others. But those are a few that just come off the top of my head at the moment. And on a personal level. How did you deal with that? Well, you've got to respect that, um, [00:43:30] these matters of conscience, it is their conscience. They got to vote on. Obviously, some MP S made a political decision because, you know, whenever you hear an MP on a conscience vote? Say I must go and canvass my electorate first and find out what the feedback is and what they think. Fair enough. That's fine. But at the end of the day, should you actually be swayed simply because you think, Oh, if I don't do what they want me to, I might be out of my [00:44:00] seat at the next election. And that I'm sorry, is the cold, hard reality of it for many MP S, there are some of them. No, Couldn't care less about it. The, um, piece of legislation may not be that important to them. They're going to go with their electorate and vote against it now. My electorate and rapper were definitely against prostitution and reform. They were definitely against Um uh, civil unions. Um I voted with my conscience and what I believed, and I I took the political risk and voted [00:44:30] in favour of those bills for another example foreshore and seabed. My electorate definitely wanted me to vote in favour of the foreshore and seabed legislation. But I, as a Maori, did not want to vote in favour of the foreshore and seabed. It was not a conscience vote. It was a party whipped vote. And although I resisted and would have left parliament with if I had had the same choices that she had, I couldn't and I didn't, [00:45:00] and I had to vote in favour of it. Against my will, I was backed into a corner over it. I spat the dummy about it. I expressed my displeasure with having to vote in favour of it and all of that. But again, I had to against my will vote in favour of it. You know, really, I suppose at the end, because it was a party vote, not a conscience vote, and my party wanted me to vote in favour of it. My electorate wanted me to vote in favour of it, but my [00:45:30] gut feeling as a Maori. No, this is wrong. What we're doing is not right. There's got to be another way around this particular issue. And, um yeah, uh, it was horrible. In fact, the foreshore and seabed was the beginning of the end of my political career and a complete change of my attitude about being in labour. [00:46:00] And it was the issue that prevented my ever getting promoted in labour and because I could prove that I could be disobedient, you know, and and not afraid to express my feeling about it. And, um, yeah, I find for me the foreshore and seabed was the worst thing I ever had to do in parliament. Everything else Prostitution, reforms, civil union, all [00:46:30] of that. Not a problem. But that legislation, it absolutely threw me into a AAA. I was disillusioned after that. Uh, I hated it. It was terrible. And, um, they will never forgive labour for, you know, making them have to make those choices. And I'm Yeah. And you know what? On the foreshore and seabed, how vindicated [00:47:00] did you think I felt when Michael Cullen came to leave Parliament at the 2008 election and the week he's leaving Parliament, he finally acquiesced and acknowledged that perhaps Labour had got it wrong on the foreshore and seabed. And I can remember hearing that on the radio and yelling out to myself at home or whatever at the time. Yes, I was right that I'd felt guilty all that time since then about my my, um you know, not being cooperative at that [00:47:30] time over it. And then finally, to hear our one of our leaders, you know, at the time to the end of his parliamentary career, acknowledge that we got it wrong on foreshore and seabed. So when the newly elected National government, um along with the Maori Party and others, um, repealed the foreshore and seabed act and replaced it with the marine and Coastal area amendment bill, which is probably about one [00:48:00] sentence more different than the foreshore and seabed I went to Parliament as a former member and sat in the chamber that day to watch the third reading of that Takata waa bill go through just so because when you sit in the chamber as a former member, you're right by the you're sitting right there with the opposition benches. So I'm there with the old Labour colleagues looking at them and they were wondering why I was there because they're sitting in opposition now. And I went I came back just so that I could see that Bill [00:48:30] get see foreshore and CB get repealed and chucked out. And, um, just for my own self satisfaction to sit there and go see you all gave me a hard time at that time. But at the end of the day, I was right. I was right.
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