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Well, I, um, came onto the scene, so to speak. And I'm talking about the twilight world of the Vivian Street scene. I guess in 1976 I had had a part time job at, um, the Royal Oak Hotel, which was a major hostility. Um, on the day in Wellington, which had, um, a couple of fascinating bars to it. One was famously known as the bistro bar, which [00:00:30] was, um, populated by, um, an eclectic mix of, um, of life. Um, everything from drag queens to trannies to prostitutes, male and female. Um, sailors. Um it was quite a sort of rough bar, really. But, um uh, full of all of this colour of life, uh, next to the bistro bar was a smaller bar called the Tavern Bar. And that was virtually [00:01:00] exclusively a gay bar. Um, gay men and women, but probably more predominantly gay men. In fact, tranny weren't particularly welcome inside the bar, but they did. We did go in there from time to time. The rest of the hotel was conventional. Um, upstairs was a bistro sort of restaurant bar, which is where one of my flatmates, real Mackenzie worked as a maitre D and a lounge bar and a typical, you know, um, hotel [00:01:30] of the day in Wellington. Um, but a lot of nightlife emanated from, particularly the bistro bar and the tavern bar. And, um, it was on the corner of Cuba Street and Dixon Street in Wellington. It now no longer exists. It was pulled down quite a lot of years ago, opposite the what was then known as the James Smith's department store. And, um, famously, there was a jewellers shop on the street frontage of the Royal Oak Hotel, where a dreadful murder [00:02:00] of the jeweller happened. I think his name was Paul Met, which was quite, um, an infamous murder of the day. Um, happened there, Um, it used to be our routine. Um, when we had 10 o'clock closing that the, you know, the bar would, the bars would empty, and everyone would sort of, um, head on up Cuba street, heading eventually toward, um, Vivian Street area. And, um, there were other hotels. The imperial, um and [00:02:30] oh, God, I can't remember the names of some of the others at the moment. And various nightclubs. Um, just to keep on with the Royal oak. How did that? How did those two bars, um, work in a time when homosexuality was illegal? I mean, how how did they get on with, say, like, the police? Well, the police, yes, would be ever present. Certainly around closing time or anything like that. I don't I think they sort of turned [00:03:00] a bit of a blind eye. There wasn't a hell of a lot in the way of arrests and that kind of thing. Yes, for, um, drunk and disorderly behaviour, which was quite a bit, um, and so they would be there, uh, for that kind of thing. But I don't personally recall any arrests as such for being gay or anything at that time, so I'm not quite sure what the philosophy on the ground for police was necessarily around that scene. And those [00:03:30] at that time there were, um I mean, up on the street scene. Um, yes. We would be arrested from time to time. Um, and processed end up in front of the district court on a Monday morning, Uh, I suppose, and fined. Usually. I mean, I got plucked once, as they call it, for frequenting with Felonious intent deemed as a rogue and a vagabond. And that was sort of a fairly standard, kind of, um, arrest [00:04:00] worthy, Um, thing of behaviour. Uh, because, uh, tranny at least, anyhow, they found it very difficult, um, to be able to charge them with soliciting and, uh, prostitution, I guess because, um didn't quite know how to fit, um, men who were dressed up as women who were selling them themselves. And it was soliciting that was illegal. Not so much prostitution, um, as such. And, um and so we would get picked up occasionally, and we just [00:04:30] sort of figured that it was, you know, a 50 buck. Fine. Well, you know, it's cheap tax, really? Um, and the ignominy, I suppose, of having to spend a weekend in the cells And, uh, you know, which was unpleasant. And we were treated quite nastily, I guess, um, by the police who weren't always friendly to us. In what way? Well, um, you can imagine a, uh, a tranny who may turn up [00:05:00] on a Friday night. And the cells, uh, certainly wouldn't be given anything for, like, shaving. You'd be wearing the clothes you'd gone out on on the Friday night you'd be put on with men. And so you ran the risk of any kind of abuse and violence and sexual violence that might occur over the weekend during their, um uh, during that, uh, you'd look like crap when you turned up in front of the judge on a Monday morning. Uh, quite often. And, um uh, but it was just par for the course. [00:05:30] Um, it was just the way it was. Um, sometimes some, uh, queens were particularly targeted by some police who just had this innate hatred of such people and would just fall short of being incredibly brutal to them, but very mean and nasty and threatening. And, um, yeah, it was really sort of unpleasant, but that was just part of what you had to deal with in those days at that time. And it was no squealing to anyone for Help me help me because you wouldn't [00:06:00] get it. Um, and, um and you just tolerated it. I guess at the time these days, of course, I'd throw the book at them. Um, and they wouldn't be allowed to, you know, um, that wouldn't be allowed to occur, But some of the venues that we used to, um, go to the Sunset Strip, which was owned and run by various people, but particularly Chris, who was a major figure in the transgender scene in Wellington at the time. [00:06:30] And certainly a contemporary of Carmen, in fact, probably predated Carmen as far as far as owning, Um uh, nightlife establishments she Although I never went to it, she had a place called the Powder Puff, and we all call it the powder puff. And, um, and then had an interest in the Sunset Strip, which is a major nightclub, which attracted, you know, not only those of us from the night scene, I guess. But all the sailors [00:07:00] and perhaps those who live, you know, the twilight world, the fringes of the criminal community and other such alternative people. And don't forget, after 10 o'clock closing and sly grog and all of that sort of stuff, you know, be going on in these establishments. So it wasn't exclusive to the so called undesirables. Um, you know, there'd be other people who would come along and go to those nightclubs, too. There was Alibaba's later known as the Cave, which was in Cuba Street um, it's now a band venue, I think called the San [00:07:30] Francisco bathhouse. Um, that's still there. Um, there was, um, Johnny Coleman had a couple of establishments, but those names escaped Me, too. The strip clubs on Vivian Street at the time. Were the club exotic? Uh, the purple onion. Uh, the hole in the wall, um, three sort of major ones. And also Chris, we took who eventually, um, had, um, a much beloved, uh, sort of, um, cafe. [00:08:00] I guess you'd call it called the Evergreen, Uh, which after Carmen's coffee lounge era had finished and closed, and Carmen had left New Zealand and gone to live in Australia. Um, Chris, he opened up the evergreen, which was, um, on Vivian street there. And, um, and that ran for many years and became quite a favourite haunt of, um, not only you know of us all, but it sort of was a replacement for the car coffee lounge. Um, era Carmen's Coffee lounge [00:08:30] had originally opened at 86. Vivian Street at the building no longer exists. It's right next door to the A Salvation Army citadel on Vivian Street. And I think actually the the site now is occupied by the New Zealand Film School is now built there, Um, at the moment. And, uh, and Carmen had acquired that building and ran it as a boarding house to begin with. And then, um, until she earned enough money, I [00:09:00] think, to open it up as a coffee lounge. So she had a coffee lounge downstairs, and she had rooms upstairs which later became, um, where some of our business occurred. If I can put it like that, Um, you know, she liked to cater to a wide variety of clientele. Hey, just before we get on to Carmen, I'm just wondering, do you know, um, more about the history of Chrissy Chris? Wait where she came from. And that [00:09:30] name? Yes. No. Chrissy is a major figure. She heard a light under a bush already. She wasn't one for seeking any kind of overt publicity. She was quite opposite to Carmen in that regard. Uh, but she was a major, major figure, um, as important, if not more important, in some ways than Carmen and, um as said Carmen was APR machine. I mean, you know, she was just an absolute PR machine, but Chrissy had and similar things. You know, at least she provided [00:10:00] places of safety and of work and of employment. And to be able to be who you are. Um, Chrissy I think Maori, Of course. We took all I think she's from the East Coast. I don't want to. Probably I'm not sure exactly what her tribal affiliations were. Um, originally, I understand that she had suffered some terrible abuse. Um, child abuse, sexual abuse when she was younger. I don't know what relevance that might have in her later life, Um, [00:10:30] a strong, large woman. And, um, but, uh, while firm, she had a huge streak of benevolence about her, too. Uh, which was, um, you know are really helpful, I guess at the end of the day. And, um, and a great person for hospitality, a lot like Carmen in that regard. And to provide a sort of a safe venue for people to be and and for all [00:11:00] walks of life to feel welcome. And, yeah, that was sort of the value of Chrissy. Do you know how Chrissy got into the hospitality business? No, I don't. No, I don't know how she got into it. Only that, Um I think it was her first establishment. Um, business was this powder puff, um, place, which I understand, was sort of a coffee bar. I kind of, um which was popular. I mean, it was part of New Zealand culture at that time when precisely, I'm not sure. I'm guessing [00:11:30] it must have been in the sixties. Um, that that must have been happening. I mean, another transgender person called Jackie Grant had a takeaway bar. Um, I understand for a while. And then, of course, Carmon emerged. But then Carmen burst forth, you know, with, um her establishment, the coffee lounge and the balcony, Uh, which was a cabaret, Um, show that she had a mixture of, um, drag queens and, um, and straight girls [00:12:00] and guys. In fact, my flatmate, Rheon McKenzie, who I talked about from the Royal Oak Hotel. He, um, did the sweet transvestite act I can remember to the ends of the late seventies. And before the balcony closed, the balcony was down in Victoria Street. Actually, it no longer exists as a building anymore. The new Wellington Public Library is now on the site. And, um and, uh, my flatmate Reon used to do the sweet transvestite act there. Um, [00:12:30] in the late seventies and the last sort of troupe that I can remember working there before it closed down was Red Mole, which was quite a well known and well respected sort of, um, entertainment group, uh, including, um, Arthur Baton. Famously. Can you describe for me what the atmosphere in the balcony was like? Oh, well, you walked up a, um, a relatively long flight of stairs from street level. And, [00:13:00] um, I got to the top and there would be, um, the counter to get in. You walked in to the venue a wide open room with a a catwalk tea style, uh, stage, um, tables and chairs for seating. You were table service as far as our drinks And, um, like refreshments. And things like that were served, um, a bit [00:13:30] of a Las Vegas style show, I suppose. Sort of Feathers and bras and G strings. And, um, and the drag queens that worked in the place, or the transgenders, if you want to call them that were always very beautiful. Um, exotic, beautifully costumed. Um, they most of them had, um, were some were sex changes. Some had had their breasts, uh, augmentation done. They were very [00:14:00] uns spring, uh, as we called them. In other words, you couldn't tell that they were. And this was sort of the, uh, the gimmick. I suppose that, um, ordinary, straight, hetero, um, audience members would find it difficult to pick who was the drag queen and who was the real girl. And so sometimes, you know, man might be with a beautiful creature dancing exotically, uh, either doing lip syncing to songs or doing comedy sketches [00:14:30] or those kinds of, um, acts. A burlesque, I guess, is really the style of the, um of the entertainment that went on there. And then you'd always get one of the queens that after they've done their act, they would whip off their wig, and that would be the sort of gimmick. You know, it wasn't an unusual, um, form of entertainment. I think in those days it was sort of titillating and, um, feel curiosity, factors and, you know, and that sort of thing. But it was classy, you know? It wasn't sort [00:15:00] of, um it was nothing like a strip club, and they didn't really strip. They might go topless and stuff like that. But, um, that was class. It was burlesque. It was more burlesque than, um, just a outright strip show or anything like that. What about the clientele? Oh, a mixture. It's a bit like the clientele that will go to see, like, girls in Sydney. I mean, um, you know, cabaret shows and dinner, dinner shows and things like that were not uncommon [00:15:30] in that era as a form of just general entertainment. This just had the added twist of that. You know, it's proprietor. It was madam Carmen and that you didn't know whether or not the girls on stage were real or not. And, um so yeah, so all walks of life, um, you know, couples and yeah, yeah, just all walks of life. There was no particular discrimination about that. And, um, people would just [00:16:00] go in for a good night out. It was non threatening. In that sense, it wasn't sort of overtly threatening or anything like that. Um, otherwise, it wouldn't have lasted for the many years that it did. Like I say, it was sort of similar in some respects to lay girls in Sydney, which was hugely respect respectable as far as a entertainment venue. Um uh, was concerned. Um, I don't know where the bus tours used to, you know, like in Australia, in Sydney, at lay girls, you know, there was a Sydney by night was a bus tour [00:16:30] that people would go on, and, uh, one of the places that they would go to for a period of the tour would be to lay girls. So, you know, Carmen's balcony was a bit similar in that sense, I think. Probably the only show of that sort in Wellington, that's for sure. There were other shows in Auckland. Um, Moos and Auckland had a lay girls as well. Um, and probably some other other shows. But those were the two most well known ones at that at that era. [00:17:00] And what about the size of the audience? Was it was it Was it packed it, or was it pretty? Well, I wasn't there all the time, of course. And all the times I went um, yeah, it was, um it was pretty well attended. Uh, toward the end of the era of the balcony, it became less and less so. You know, the audience were more spartan, and, uh, and I'm not sure why the balcony closed. Perhaps, um, it just wasn't making the money anymore. But more than likely, the lease on the premises probably ran [00:17:30] out. And you mentioned earlier about Carmen's International Coffee lounge. Did that precede the balcony, or was that something that happened after the balcony? I think it preceded the balcony, and and, um and then essentially at about the same time. But yeah, I'm not sure which came first entirely, but I'm pretty sure the the coffee lounge came first. And then the balcony. Can you tell me about the coffee Lunch? Oh, well, coffee lounge. Um, [00:18:00] first of all, you would have been struck by its facade. Uh, from from this, uh, from out on the street, it was two storied. Um, And like I said, the the ground floor was the coffee lounge. And that upstairs was where, uh, we entertained clients and Carmen had had as a bit of a boarding house and sometimes lived up there. Um, the facade was had been painted in sort of, um, Mughal style minarets and very exotic [00:18:30] sort of eastern, um, Middle Eastern sort of exotica. I suppose, and very colourful and and bold, which stuck out like a sore thumb on the otherwise do a sort of street that, um it was down at 86 Vivian Street. And remember, we're right next door to the Salvation Army citadel here, and it had an alleyway that ran down beside it. Um, also, um, where you had street level entry into the upstairs part of, um of the building. [00:19:00] Um, you walked inside the small, confined front door into a little, um, entry, I suppose, And then there'd be a sliding door and you would go in there. And that's where you paid your ticket, you know, paid to get in. Um, always, um, it was person by some exotic looking queen, um, or intimidating, whichever, whichever way. You looked at it. And then you walked into the coffee lounge, which was [00:19:30] sort of fairly small, but I suppose when you think about it, But, oh, red comes to mind as the colour of the predominate around the place. Big, huge golden red Chinese lanterns with tassels, big gold tassels hanging on them, um, exotic wall hangings and tapestries. Paintings of Madam Carly, those, um, velvet paintings you know, that kind of thing? Um, lots [00:20:00] of yes, lots of sort of lushness, really? In that sense, um, and dim sort of lighting for market tables and chairs and, um, and things like that, and just sugar bowls and all that sort of stuff on the table. Um, you went through into a kitchen area, which led on to where the toilet area was. Um, so if you were on your way to the bathroom, [00:20:30] you know, you'd probably come across doing the dishes. The fabulous Lola a tall, uh um, I think she was a Lebanese or some kind of, you know, um uh, they say they always dressed in sort of Audrey Hepburn short dresses and short sleeves, wearing long evening gloves with flaming red hair, wigs on and eyelashes out to here, that kind of thing. And she'd be there washing the dishes and she'd with [00:21:00] her evening gloves on, and she'd have plastic gloves over the top of her evening gloves in order to wash the dishes and stuff like that. And she'd always go her darling. As anyone especially handsome looking men might want to buy to go to the toilet. And, um she's while while while she's doing the dishes at you. She was one character I can think of. Um, a wonderful, eclectic mix of fabulous people. Really. All sorts of people came to Carmen's coffee lounge. Um, highbrows, low [00:21:30] brows and everything in between, um, everything from politicians to entertainers to, um, you know, businessmen, public servants, um, all sorts. It wasn't without its troubles from time to time. Sometimes the hut boys, as we would call them, would arrive into town for the evening to decide to go about doing a bit of queer bashing. We all front up at some point to the coffee lounge and get ready to have a bit of a rumble. Except they'd get confronted by, well, the queens we call the Big Ted, which [00:22:00] would have include Chrissy We and Gypsy and various others. Um, you know, who were big, sort of, you know, 6 ft four. It doesn't matter how much lipstick and what nice rock they've got on. I can turn back into the men they were born to be and usually thumped over these hut boys when they came in and sort of earn quite a bit of respect and never got troubled again. Um, not in that sense. And in fact, they would sort of, sort of, you know, end up becoming our protectors in lots of ways. Um, it was just sort of the way it was. Um, [00:22:30] yeah. No, it was, um, for Wellington. I guess in those days, it was quite an exotic and sort of naughty place to go to simply because. And the wonderful madam Carmen, of course. And And Carmen was, um, a fabulous hostess. Um, she always engaged with, um, with her customers and and, you know, the clientele that we there, um, sort of, you know, made you feel very personable. You know, she seemed to speak to you not just sort of past you or anything. Why [00:23:00] is making sure that you're being looked after and taken care of? She had funny little rituals about, um, you know, people are coming in there for a certain type of entertainment bedroom gymnastics, so to speak. And there were ways and means by which you could signal that you were perhaps interested in one of her girls that might be floating around by playing a little game with the tea cups. Um you know, because of course, you know, you weren't allowed. It was like I said six o'clock swell time, [00:23:30] you know, and and all of that, you know, booze wasn't allowed to be sold. I dare say. There was a little bit of the counter, um, booze going on which, um, which was where you made a few extra bucks. And, of course, if if that's a place where you can get liquor, well, you're going to get all sorts of people sort of turn up, um, uh, to to get us at that time of night when legally you weren't meant to be selling it. I, uh, Carmen gave me my first client, actually, um, when, um you know, when I first ended [00:24:00] up on the scene there. And, um and I always used to wonder how Carmen could walk into the coffee lounge. And since there was only one backdoor exit, Um, and she hadn't gone out there. How the hell she could just disappear into thin air around the place as well. It didn't take long to realise that behind one of the large, um, tapestries that were on the wall was an internal door that went to upstairs. And so the key was was that, um, a client, you know, would [00:24:30] be sorted. Um, the client would go outside and down to the alley down the alleyway to the outside door and the, um and we would whip in behind the tapestry into the internal door and meet our client in the passageway and go upstairs to do the business. Took me a while to realise how calm I could appear and disappear just like that. But that's how it used to happen. And you were saying about the the the the tea cups. There was some something to do with tea cups. [00:25:00] I can't quite remember how the routine goes, but I mean, you know, say you have a, you know, a cup and a saucer. And if you had them, which would be there when you arrived, you know, depending on what you wanted and you would either put the saucer on top of the cup or turn the cup over or have it on its side. I mean, various things. I'm not quite sure how all of that worked, but sort of understood. And whether or not that meant that you wanted you know one of those girls or whether you wanted that girl or whether you wanted [00:25:30] a bit of Carmen, strangely enough, never smoked and never drank herself. You know, it was never like that. That must have been quite fun if if for your first time, that as a as a as a customer going in there and you wouldn't necessarily know about the cups and just by putting it down No, no. And And, of course, when you're a new queen on the scene, you're at the bottom of the rung. And so and so, uh, you know, you've got all the other seniors around us [00:26:00] who sort of take precedent. But while they can be a bit nasty to you from time to time, it was all sort of. You were. You know, you knew that you were able to be comfortable in this place, you know, there were other queens like you around, and, um, and as long as you didn't step on their turf or pinch their clients or take their lives or, um, you know, or their charities or anything like that, you'd be, you know, sort of all right. And, um and [00:26:30] and she could see that you were a newbie and, you know, would sort of, uh, will be helpful, I guess by providing you with a client, because don't forget we weren't able to get the dole. We weren't able to, um, you know, get normal regular employment. So, you know, that's why you sort of tended to be forced into, um, you know, being a prostitute and, um, earning money that way. And so how do you, you know, God, I'm 16, 17 years [00:27:00] old, and I'm not that worldly yet. You know, I've got to learn very quickly, Um, as you walk into that sort of scene, and so you sort of on the one hand, you're sort of looked after and kept an eye on and cared for. On the other hand, you're not sort of multi coddled either, because you've got to shape up pretty quickly to learn the ways of the street life. So can you remember your first client? Yes, I can. Because Carmen gave him to me, Um, and sort of me with him. And that's where I found out [00:27:30] about, you know, behind the tapestry and upstairs. Um, yes. And, um and she sort of I wasn't really quite sure what I was meant to do, but, um, hated it. It was terrible. It was awful. And, um, but, you know, pop some more pills, have another drink, um, and wipe it all, you know, all of the unpleasant part of it. How would you [00:28:00] describe car? Oh, a larger than life figure, Um, fabulously hospitable. A huge amount of mana, Um, a dry wit, Um caring, generous in many respects. Um, bit of an entrepreneur, certainly. [00:28:30] APR machine. Absolutely. Once she, you know, got on to it. Um, she only started to be calm because when she started out in her entertainment career, um, she was, you know, beautiful, slim, exotic, did exotic dancing, snake dancing, things like that. Hula dancing. And, um and part of the gimmick was was that she was absolutely uns spring. But, um, you know that she wasn't sort of detected as being a tranny, [00:29:00] And, um then she was outed. Um, she was outed, I think by Wally Martin. I may stand to be corrected by that, and that was sort of a little bit devastating to her entertainment path at the time. But on the other hand, she decided to embrace it and, um and sort of really sort of fully came out. And I think the common persona as we have come to know her the larger than life the the beautiful loud gowns, the three wigs [00:29:30] and the whole you know, botanical gardens and her hair, the roses and all of that sort of stuff. Um, you know, the image came to pass and she embraced it and was like that just about all the time and became absolutely identifiable. And obviously she could see the marketing value in it all. And it was good for her business and sort of marked her out as something different from whatever else, um, was around. So in that way, she was very entrepreneurial and, uh, but had decided [00:30:00] at some point that she would just embrace that she is who she is. And it's no use trying to, um, hide it under a bushel and be a famous tranny. And, um and she was, and I think that that attitude opened an awful lot of doors way down the track for many of us in the future. Um, after that about visibility and having to tolerate. I mean, don't let [00:30:30] you know. Let's be real here. You know, it was not universally accepted at all, and the ridicule and the demeaning nature of which people would treat her and others like her. You know, these were the days when it was illegal for men to be wearing women's clothing out in public and in order to go and do your entertainment gigs, even if you were doing a drag, Um, a drag act or whatever. You could only be dressed in drag [00:31:00] at the venue you were performing. You weren't allowed to walk on the street dressed up as a woman. Um, you could be arrested for that. And you know this. This is the era when homosexuals were put in jail. Um, two years, I think, was the sentence for being, you know, and you know, So it was a very scary time, as far as that was concerned. And so for someone like car to, um, to just bite the bullet and be out and be who she is and then become sort of a, um, a figure [00:31:30] of curiosity. Yes, but also, of course, the media loved it. Um, and and because of her nature as a nice, good person. She wasn't sort of a stereotype, nasty sort of sexual deviant, as people would have thought. I mean, they would still thought she was a sexual deviant. But somehow they're bamboozled by the sheer force of her of her persona [00:32:00] and her her warmth and her hospitality. And let's not forget now that her establishments were now becoming quite part and parcel of the nightlife scene of Wellington in general. I mean, you know, and, um, the high brows and the low brows were all going there. So there was a certain amount of respectability and that any run ins with the law, um, sometimes or whether it would be her personally or whether it be some of her girls, um that might get into a spot of bother suddenly pushed the boundaries [00:32:30] of some laws that ended up being changed because they didn't know how to deal with transgender people in a legal context. It was sort of quite a, um a time of, um, realisation and change. And and, um, yeah, and not just Carmen, of course. I mean, God, we always talk about Carmen and, um, but there were others. Who contemporaries at the time the Chrissy we took, you know, the, um and all the girls that ever worked for her. Um, a lot of a lot of the girls [00:33:00] that worked for her ripped her off, too. You know, it was sort of a dollar for me. $2 for Carmen dollar for me, $2 for car. Wasn't unknown for car to sort of, You know, some queen had just come back into town and Carmen to sort of say, Oh, so I paid for your new bus job, Have I, You know, and that kind of thing. But, you know, um, so I think you know, she was exploited in that way because Carmen wasn't really very, very, um, worldly as far as finance and business and money [00:33:30] was concerned. Like I said, she was APR machine. She was a, you know, an entrepreneur in that sense. And so I think she relied on the honesty and integrity of other people not to sort of, you know, she wasn't stupid, but, uh, you know, in short, she made and lost fortunes. Really? Um, because she didn't understand, and and, um And when she did get into spots of bother sort of eminent lawyers and people in the legal and accountants and would help her out. Um, she became quite respected in her own [00:34:00] way amongst the business community of Wellington at the time. I mean, and if she did get into a spot of bother over things, you'd get lawyers like Roy, Stacey and, um, you know, various other people later on. Bob Jones, Of course. You know, um, backing her for a bit of public? Um, adulation. When she ran for the mayoralty of Wellington, which was not her idea, it was more Bob's idea. But, um yeah, um, an amazing person, really? In lots of ways. [00:34:30] How did Carmen and Chrissy get on? Oh, very well. Yes. No. Um, yes. No, no. There was no sort of, you know, fierce competition or anything like that. No, not at all. I mean, the world was too small in those days for for for that kind of thing to happen. And, um, no, I think there was, you know, they were amicable and and and friendly, and, um, they both had a compassionate streak about them. So, um, you know, that went on [00:35:00] all right, there was no particular Queen. Wars went on as far as I know. You mentioned that that Wally Martin kind of outed to How did that happen? What? What? What happened? I'm not sure exactly how it happened. Um, I think Dana Demilo would be able to answer that a little bit better, but at some point, Yeah, Um, Wally Martin, for those who need to be reminded, was I guess you'd call him a strip king of New Zealand. He and Rayon Hastie opened up the first strip clubs [00:35:30] in New Zealand and, um, in Auckland in particular. And Carmen, um, had been involved somehow up there at that time. And yeah, so I mean, Wally Martin on many, many years later, Um, I tried to open up another club down in Wellington for a while. I can't remember what it was called now, and, um, but he was sort of getting on a bit. Then I can remember in that year when he opened them, he had three heart attacks. Finally, the last one killed him. Um, [00:36:00] yeah, well, I buy Wally. Um, but yes. So I've only met him. I only met him a couple of times. myself, but, uh, but yes, that's his sort of, um, background on where he sort of fitted in. He'd been a along with Ray and Hastie. What you'd call the strip kings of, uh, New Zealand. You you said just before about three wigs with Carmen literally. Did she wear three wigs? Oh, well, at a time. [00:36:30] Well, we're in a couple of hair pieces. Yes, that wasn't unusual. We all sort of wore our hair like that. These are the days of the beehives and the up and down hairdos and, um, as much hair as possible. And, um and of course, as you know, she's famous for always, you know, doing her Billie Holiday look with the flowers and and her hair. She liked to model herself and her obviously her name. Carmen Miranda. You know, um, and, uh, and other exotic Hollywood stars, [00:37:00] you know, she liked the Marlena Dietrich. The you know, you know, all of those sort of Dolores del Rio. And, you know, that was her era, I guess. Of, um, icons that, uh, she probably aspired to when she was a little boy. Did Carmen have any other kind of business interests? She did briefly have, um, a little tea rooms at the top of, uh, Cuba Street called the Egyptian Tea Rooms. Uh, that didn't last very long. [00:37:30] She also briefly located um, Carmen's coffee lounge. When, when the lease had finished at 86 Vivian Street, she briefly had a coffee lounge upstairs in lower Cuba Street. But that was only a temporary venue. And for a while she had a curio shop selling all sorts of curios and things. Um, and that was in Plimer steps for a wee while. Um, but none of those Those businesses didn't last very long and maybe a year or so. [00:38:00] And, uh, and that was toward the end of her time, um, in New Zealand before she left to live more permanently in Australia in the early 19 eighties. In talking with a number of other people they've mentioned about, I think it was the prostitution arrest that changed the law. It was car. And was it Carol de Winter? Where, where at the time, they couldn't prosecute a man for prostitution? [00:38:30] That's right. Yes. And, uh, and with Carol Dewinter, of course, was a sex change. She was one of the early sex changes. Um, she had done. And so it presented a conundrum. Um, as far as the law was concerned, apparently at the time. And, uh, quite a, um a leading a precedent was going to be set here. Um, because they couldn't prosecute her. Yeah. Isn't it ridiculous? [00:39:00] Men couldn't be. Well, let's clarify. Prostitution was not illegal. Soliciting was, And that's how you know, um, they got caught. I don't know the details of how that case went, but it changed the law. It changed, you know, um, because they hadn't had to deal with the gender issues that come into, you know, here is Carol de Winter. Um, um, who has had reassignment surgery now and is, um, physically a woman, in that sense, but [00:39:30] legally still regarded as a male. Yeah. It does present a problem when you're trying to slap someone down for, uh, prostitution or soliciting. And, um and I'm not quite sure. Um, yeah, I'm not quite sure exactly how the case panned out, but, uh, she wasn't convicted, and I think the law ended up having to be amended. Um, and, uh, it was, uh, apparently at the time, [00:40:00] one of the things. Um, Donna de Milo mentioned when I was interviewing her, was that, um because solicitation was illegal at the time, they would have in the parlours, um, kind of saloon doors so that you could see the feet of the girl and the head of the girl. But if the girl was laying down, then the police would come and bust. And can you recall any of that? No. Well, she must have been one of the lucky ones to be working in a parlour. [00:40:30] I mean, you know, not many of us queens ever had that, um, that, uh, uh, joy. I was very lucky that I was able to work in a strip club and at the club exotic in, um, the late seventies. And that's where I worked. And while we were paid in terrible, terrible money, it was it was just terrible. Emmanuel Papadopoulos owned the nightclub, uh, owned the club exotic at the time. And, um, and our pay was just [00:41:00] dreadful. But at least we didn't have to. Queens didn't have to be on and and only one or two of us one or 23 of us were queens that were allowed to work in that club at that time. Um, it's not as if Queens got to work in strip clubs at all. The strip clubs were predominantly male, you know, um, for men, you know. So it was girls that worked in strip clubs. Um, the only queens that got to work in strip clubs and do the full on, um, stripping had to be extraordinarily [00:41:30] good looking and unring, and you to trick you did a trick strip. So even though you might have had all your you know, rod and tackle, you sure as hell had to tape it away. And, um, you know, and false up a fanny for stripping and stuff like that. You could have breast because either you had a hormone bust or, um, or you'd gone and had your bust done, had a tit job done. And, um [00:42:00] and but anyhow, for for us queens, it was sort of more like greater. You know, I could do my advertising, so to speak, on a stage and, um, drunk men in a strip club, you know, late at night. You know, it's it's you know, any port in a storm, you know, or feel the same. You know, I mean, I'm sorry to be so crude here, but, you know, a quick knee trembler in the toilet, they wouldn't have a clue. Um, you know, you know, at the end of the day, they just sort of too bamboozled over. [00:42:30] So it was a slightly safer way than having to play a trade out on the street. Um, which was, of course, a little more dangerous. Um, a lot more dangerous, Um, in many respects. And, um, on giving a cut to the boss. Um, you know? Yeah, the exploitation was horrendous, really? In lots of ways. But better to be inside a strip club on a cold, wet, windy Wellington night than stuck out on the corner trying to pick up a client [00:43:00] you mentioned, um, hormone breasts. And I'm just wondering, how easy was it to get hormones in Wellington in the fairly easy? Well, for me, it was at that time. Um, Doctor Tom on. He's dead now so I can mention his name. You can't have me up for defaming him in any kind of way. But he was a popular pill doctor as we called him. He had his um, his surgery in Willis Street. [00:43:30] And, um and many of us used to go to him, um, for to get our our hormone treatment, amongst other things. So he was sympathetic to, um, transgender require health requirements. In that sense, however, I don't recall getting much in the way of advice about what it is I was taking. I remember, you know, I got used to get, um, prescribed. Still be still be was a synthetic form of female hormone. Um, [00:44:00] which is fine. It it did the job, except it did have a long term effects down the track. I stopped taking it after a while. Um, because it, you know, sucked a lot of calcium out of your bones, made it quite brittle and things like that. Yeah, but there wasn't a lot of that. I or not to me personally, Um, a lot of advice about the whole process, Um, that I was going into It was just that he would just shout, um, our hormones, as we required them, as as [00:44:30] the treatment for want of a better term and improved. And you were able to get oestrogen injections and that kind of thing you know into the future. But, uh uh, um, hormones were not the only reasons why we went to Doctor. Oh, you know, pills, darling, You know, Duromine mandrax. Seol Typal Pippin. The cocktail of of of, um, of mind altering [00:45:00] substances that, uh, we all took at that time. I'm ashamed to say it now, but, I mean, that was part of the course, so many of us, and I don't just mean queens. I mean, you know, anyone who, um and you just go and tell him a sad sex story or whatever. And he was very gullible in that sense. And, um, you know, we used to fill out our, um when we were we were able to get on to because you couldn't get an unemployment benefit. So either you had to go [00:45:30] on to, um, if you're going to get a benefit at all, a sickness benefit and very rarely an invalid benefit. But, um, a sickness benefit might be the other one. So But even if you weren't sick, um, our condition, what do they call it these days? Gender dysphoria. I suppose they call it these days. But in my day, it was a psychosexual disorder. And so that's what they could put down on a medical certificate. And then you could get paid. Um uh, a sickness [00:46:00] benefit because you had a psychosexual disorder. Of course, none of us had any kind of psychosexual disorder. But if the silly bastards want to pay us out a benefit and you know, because they think we're a bit crazy like that, I'll take your money and, um, you know, and we did. I mean, if you're gonna put us down on the margins of society, if that's where you think we're gonna be, then we've got to survive, baby. And, um And that was part of it. And so, uh, if you were lucky enough to get a benefit [00:46:30] like that, um uh, it was a benefit like that. Then everything else was supplemented your income and don't get me wrong. It was by no means hugely generous or anything. But you know, that's what happens when you're shoved down into the margins of society. Um, because you refuse to, um to comply with what society expects of you as far as, um, you know, be the man you're supposed to be and go and get a real job. [00:47:00] You know, of course, we could do that. But, um, we are who we are and what we are. And I guess, you know, in a in A with a political tone to it, that's where you draw a line in the sand. And, um, many of us did draw that line in the sand and say, No, this is what we are. Who the hell are you to tell me to, you know, be different. You know, I mean no harm to you. Um, I can still do an honest day's work, if that's what If only you would give me the chance, But, um, [00:47:30] they didn't. Not In those days, we was the club in Exotic Club. Exotic was the corner of Vivian and Cuba Street. The building still exists. It is currently being refurbished into something else. At the moment, I don't know what it hasn't operated as a strip club for well over a 20 year, maybe 13, 15 years, 20 years. Maybe since it's been a been a strip club, it, um, until [00:48:00] recently, with this new refurbishment going on the neon sign of a naked girl, um, used to be on the corner of the building. Uh, they've taken it down. Um, while they've done this refurbishment, whether or not I don't know what the place is going to be turned into now, um, it was three or four stories high. Um, so you had street level, which, um, had a burger bar, and, um, another shop on the corner. And the strip club was up on the first floor, and [00:48:30] the other two floors were never used because, um, but not while I was there because they didn't have concrete floors. And so it wasn't safe to have, um, anything else up there No apartments or anything like that. So on on the years that I worked there, which would have been between 1976 to about 1981 82 around that time? Um, yeah, that's that's what it was there. And that's different from the club. Exotic no [00:49:00] one in the same building. But at one point it was called the club exotic, spelled differently. And then it just became and its lady is known as the club exotic. So exotic. TIQUE is as suppose to EXOT IC. Yeah. God only knows why that changed you know. And the building was owned by a famous Greek, Um, Wellington. I'll be kind and call him businessman and property owner Emmanuel [00:49:30] Papadopoulos. And what about the purple onion? You you mentioned that earlier the purple onion was on the opposite side of the road from the club. Exotic, um, down just before the corner of Marion Street and Vivian Street. Um, I don't know what occupies that space right now. No, I can't. Um, but but, um, it's gone. It's been long gone. Um, when I knew of the purple onion, it was, um, owned and run [00:50:00] by, uh, Pei and Anita Daniels, and they weren't there very long. We didn't have the place very long when I came along to work there. And when I, um, worked there, it was being leased by a butch lesbian woman called dot God only knows what her surname was, and she had a partner called Lexie. Sexy. Lexie, who was a famous stripper, um, woman stripper at at the purple [00:50:30] onion and flaming red hair. Stunning woman, really, in lots of ways. And, um, on the front, um, facade of the purple onion was a famous mural. I suppose painted by, Apparently a well known artist whose name I don't know. But he was well known at the time of a, um, blonde haired woman in a diaphanous outfit standing in front of like, a duen car with [00:51:00] three Afghan dogs on a leash. And it was sort of spread across the frontage of the, um, you know, looked very, uh, alluring, I suppose, And enticing it was what I'd call a sort of a A, um, had a sense of a of a basement feel about it, although it was straight off the street level, but it was sort of dark and intimate and small. Not huge, not large. Um, always had a fabulous portrait of Anita Daniels. Um, a beautiful [00:51:30] portrait, I think, painted by the same artist who painted the front of the building. Um, up there. I'd love to know who it is later on. Um, actually, um oh, the actress Diana Priestley and her husband, Tony Burton. Um, when they got, um, particularly Dina got interested in doing bar, and they did a wonderful series, actually, of bar on the purple onion, which included, um, some caricatures of DOT and Lexi [00:52:00] and the, um purple onion. So they're beautiful, you know, they're lovely pieces of art. How does the purple onion compare to places like the club? Exotic and and other clubs? In what way? I mean, um, they they had a different atmosphere. Um, the staging was different, but, you know, strippers are strippers, you know, And quite often [00:52:30] we used to some of the strippers used to we do spots at either club. So it wasn't like we were exclusive to one club or the other. And so we'd run across, and, um and then we'd bring traffic to a stop. So I'd finish doing a spot up at the club Exotic race down the stairs and and my bra and panties and, um and perhaps with a fabulous cape on and sort of fly across Vivian Street to get to, um, the onion to fill in and into a spot because they might have been shorter girls that night and and do that, you know. And all of this sort of added to the colour of the street. [00:53:00] I wasn't the only one that did it. A lot of them. The hole in the wall opened soon after Brian Lagro became a, um, the sixth king of Wellington. I suppose at the time, um, after dot had lost the lease on the, um, purple onion. Who? I think the building had been owned by Mark Westland. Mark and, um, at that time, um, Brian Lagro came onto the scene. Now he was a hut boy. [00:53:30] I think he'd been a builder and stuff like that. A bit of a rough edge about him, and he had been brought in, and he came with some henchmen and just walked into the Purple Club Purple Onion Club one night, uh, told dot that she was out and they were in. And, um and Brian came in, took over the club. About three weeks later, he shut it down. And at that time, me and various others who worked there sort of were out of a job there, and, uh, he later on opened the place up [00:54:00] as a peep show, actually, and also opened up the hole in the wall, which was a nightclub strip club venue, and, um, just up toward the corner of Vivian and Cuba Street. Next to what would have been Park of Ferguson, the furniture shop at the time. But actually, it's now the blue note, Um, right on the corner of Vivian Street there. And, um, the hole in the wall building is still there that I can remember. [00:54:30] And, um, yes. Brian opened that up and ran it for quite a number of years before he bought the Salvation Army building across the road. It had been the Salvation Army's secondhand clothing shop and furniture shop. Um, it was right next to the club exotic. And, um, Brian bought got hold of that building and turned it into licks. The strip club, which was there for many years. And then Brian [00:55:00] became the first strip club owner in New Zealand and certainly in Wellington to, um, be granted a liquor licence. And as soon as he was granted a liquor licence, that was a licence to print money. Essentially, um, his idea of, um, the strip world was to be class class class. He wanted a Las Vegas style beautiful girls, no queens. The only queens he ever let strip on his stage were myself and, um um, another [00:55:30] friend of mine who no longer lives in New Zealand. Um, and the vet was also excellent at doing choreography for strip shows. And, um oh, and my flatmate, Dana Dana De Paul, who made costumes. And And Brian had a very high standard of what he wanted his club to be. He wanted to be all class completely different from the other slapper shows that were around town. And that's what he was aspiring for. And when he got a licence, a liquor licence for the place that he just made a fortune [00:56:00] an absolute fortune and later on opened up, um, the White House strip club in Queen Street in Auckland and has gone on to other things. Yeah. So prior to that licence for Brian, are you saying that all the other strip clubs didn't have alcohol licences? No, I guess, but, uh, yes, I am. No, they did not have liquor licences. Doesn't mean to say there wasn't liquor. Yeah, well, it's all right now. It's all in the past, isn't it? Um, [00:56:30] yeah. No, no, no. Um and and of course, you sold your sly grog for a premium. You know, the the Boston? Yeah, stripping on stage. Now, I've had other interviews Where, um, it's been that kind of art. Rama thing where, um, Art Rama? Yes. Tell me about Oh, Well, it's just the finale. But wasn't it kind of illegal to actually move and be naked at the same time? Oh, that was way [00:57:00] before my time. You better go back to Dana to Milo about that. Um well, I mean naked. Um What? So I've got a bow, a feather strategically placed somewhere, you know, or whatever. Like that. Um, when we did Artur armour of poses, we might be topless. Yeah. No, I don't I don't remember those kinds of constraints. Um, hindering what I was doing. You're probably [00:57:30] right. There might have been some law around it, but, I mean, as if it was policed. I mean, please, the police had a lot more to to worry about than, you know, up there, Whether or not your tits are jiggling while you're doing outer armour of poses. I mean, um, in fact, I've got a clip on on the documentary about me called Georgie Girl. There's a clip that I had long long forgotten about until it appeared on this thing of me stripping up on the stage at the club exotic and, um [00:58:00] yeah, no, art of pos was usually a a finale. So everyone had gone through the the the you know, all their routines. Everyone had their go. And then at the end of it, everyone would come up on stage and just, you know, through a few tracks of music, just sort of, um, do various artistic poses. You know, I can remember. I don't know whether I should, or she won't thank me for it either. Um, there [00:58:30] was one. there was one sex change. I just called her Raylene. And, um, and Rane, unfortunately, was a terrible smack freak. And one night during Artur Armour of Pos and she used to sort of head to sit down in front of us in the centre front of the stage and she pay thing. Well, she's out of it and all of that. And one day and one night we were doing art armour of Pos, and she was so out [00:59:00] of it that she lost control of her bodily functions all over the stage and we all just left. We just left us sitting there on the stage and ran away while poor old Manuel Papadopoulos was going right off down at the what the hell, Like, clean up this mess. None of us wanted to know about it floating around. I mean, you know, it's just part of life. You dare say the audience emptied out very quickly After that, [00:59:30] we should stop for a minute. Well, I can ask I Can I ask you a question? As you do? Oh, sure, Sure. What about, um, the kind of, uh, use of language? Um, was there kind of like backslang or Pila Kind of spoken at the time? Yes. There was a AAA language. A lingo. Um, I never knew how to speak it very, very well. [01:00:00] I could sort of understand it. It was sort of a kind of, um, you know, I know. Yeah, yeah. I can't be many years since I've talked about it. Um uh, uh, talked it, but yes, it was a funny kind of, um, drag. I suppose so. That we could communicate with each other, especially when you were amongst straight people. And you wanted to pass a comment about something or other and, um, and didn't want to be understood. And, [01:00:30] um except between ourselves. So, yes, there was this funny kind of, um yeah, this funny kind of lingo, I think I must have been phasing out of my time. There would be other, uh, Donna De would she can probably speak it fluently. I mean, they invented it. Um, and it was invented. It was, um you know, it wasn't, uh, you know, something that had existed. It was just a strange form of communication to communicate things. Especially if you wanted [01:01:00] to talk about clients or or, um yeah, whatever. Kind of pigeon English. Really? Hm. When we were talking earlier about the the the the powder puff and also the sunset strip, I don't think we said where they were. Where were they? Well, when I first went to the Sunset Strip, it was in street. And, um, the building no longer exists. But [01:01:30] after this era of the Sunset Strip, I think it became marmalade recording studios for a while. And so right next door. Oh, what's there now? I'm just trying to think, um, it would have been opposite what we would call in Wellington, the World Trade Centre, as it was known then, um, in street. And I can't think what's there now. Um Maybe there's a Oh, there's a park and the cave, Um, or Ali Barbers, [01:02:00] as it was known. And the cave? Well, it was done out like a Alibaba's was done out, like, you know, Alibaba's Cave and, um and that is where the San Francisco bathhouse venue is now upstairs there in Cuba Street. And that is the venue. That's where the cave was. Of course, it looks quite different now to how it looked in my day and the days of disco and all of that sort of thing. Some of the other venues that Donna's mentioned are Matador. Did [01:02:30] you ever frequent that? No, I didn't, but I heard of it. What else? Sorrento? Um yes, The Sorrento Coffee Club. What? What was that like? I don't know. I never went there either. Those are sort of before my Yeah, no. In my time. And And I've come late into the piece. Really? You know, I'm I'm late seventies, and, um, all of those sort of places existed before, you know that that they are. They were from the cafe culture of the sixties [01:03:00] in the seventies, and Johnny Corman owned places. Um, he was a sort of a cafe nightclub person around town, you know, in in those days. And and Chris, of course, and various others. Well, see Restaurant, strangely enough, was right next door to um, the club exotic on the Cuba street frontage. That building still exists, and so it's turned into another and of course, was one of the restaurants in Wellington at the time. And it was sort of funny this juxtaposition between this sort of bawdy old strip [01:03:30] club right next door on the corner in this very fine dining restaurant known as sin. Because the restaurants of the day that I can remember the coachman, the Lotus um, Normandy with the sort of big time flash restaurants, um, in Wellington that I can remember a steakhouse called um The Town Gate, which was owned by Greeks. That was down Manor Street, Garland's restaurant in Manor Street. [01:04:00] Upstairs, they had the most fantastic, um, three course roast dinners on Sundays for some ridiculous price price, like $3.50 or something like that. It was always a good place to go, and the green parrot, of course, was still around. Um, you know, in those days, in a different location to where it is now, but, uh, yeah, and I think the only other one that, um, Dana mentioned was the in in Auckland. [01:04:30] I never went there, but I heard of that. Yes, Um, you know, Auckland Wellington could have been two different countries. Really? As far as that that scene was concerned in those days, but yes. Oh, in Auckland. What you had? Yes, I heard of the Dora you had, um, mojo. You had, um, the Great Northern Hotel was a sort of a gay bar venue. There was all the trannies went the house, street toilets? Um, [01:05:00] um, yeah, um I. I worked in Auckland in the 19 eighties at Alfie's nightclub in Century Arcade, which was owned by, um, uh, Brett Shepherd and Tony Kavi and Tony's partner, John. Um, they owned Alfie's night club. And then there was another nightclub in Fort Street in Auckland called the staircase. Um, can't remember the names of the chaps that owned that one, but they were the two major gay night clubs in Auckland during the 19 eighties, at least. Anyhow, [01:05:30] uh, a night club was was a very popular club, and not just for gay. It was universally, you know, it was one of the nightclubs in Auckland, and I was in the bloomers show. Um, that ran there from, uh what New Year's Eve? 1984 through to I think it stopped running a show there in the early nineties. I stopped working there in 1989. Um, can you describe a for me? Alfie's nightclub in Auckland was a basement [01:06:00] nightclub, and, um, had a very small stage and dance, if you can call it a stage stage and dance floor area, um, it had booths and, um, a sort of partitioned off bar area, um, sunken bar area. Uh, for a while, it was probably quite small for a club when I think about it now, but it used to get absolutely excuse [01:06:30] me, packed out. It was very popular and gay, And when when it first got going, it had a table service and all of that kind of thing. So it was done quite classy. Other, um, establishments in Auckland at the time was Stanley's bar. Uh, Melbourne was a, um and these weren't gay bars per se, but they were we all the glitterati and the Auckland Celebrity you know, a listers and all of that would sort of go And aie became one of those [01:07:00] and and the the Staircase nightclub, just down on forth street was a much larger nightclub. The Bloomers show actually did its first shows at at, um, the staircase, and it was a two hour show, but, um, the owners didn't want to keep the show on. We were looking for a permanent residency, and that's when Brett Shepherd and Alfie came along and said, Oh, come and cut your show down to half an hour and we put her on late at night at one o'clock in the morning. And, um and that was to sort of, you know, keep [01:07:30] patrons coming on. So when bars and pubs closed at 10 o'clock, everyone had nightclubs and things and was one of those. So, yeah, I, um carpet, um what else? Alfie's. Yeah, no, it was sort of They tried to sort of be quite plush, but you can imagine bunch of guys and I pissed them out of it to make a mess. Uh, but it was very popular and, um went on for years and years and years, and I still meet people these days. Who who, um, occasionally [01:08:00] come up to me and sort of say, Oh, I remember seeing you at Alfie's, and I'd be going. And how old were you? Um and, yeah, lots of good music. And, um, and our show, which was we were probably the longest running permanent resident drag show and certainly permanent show in Auckland at that time. I mean, to have run from 1984 through to the early 19 nineties. It was quite a long run. The our only competition was a much [01:08:30] more classy straight show in, um, called Debbie Do Day. And those sort of people, um um, had that show up there, but, um, and we were very, um, in our show, we were always cutting edge. We were always doing, sort of, you know, cutting edge alternatives, you know, full on production numbers as well, as well, how much can you squeeze into half an hour? Um, but they were always sort of cutting edge. You know, the newest music out we were doing Malcolm McLaren's Madam [01:09:00] Butterfly or, um, doing, um, Starlight Express and those kinds of numbers where we'd use lots of of effects and fabulous costumes and things like that, which we made ourselves. I mean, you know, I did a lot of all of that ourselves and, um, and built up a, you know, a a great following. A lot of people remember that time. God. And that's why we called ourselves bloomers. And that's Nicole and Nicole Deval headed our troop. And Nicole, of course. [01:09:30] I mean, if you've got Carmen and Chrissie and all of them down and one and one Deval or Tinkerbell as she was originally known, um, you know, even, um Phil Warren with Nicole had, um you know, Nicole had the nightclub that they called Tinker Bell. I think she had it for a year up there that, um God, that doesn't exist anymore, either. The the venue, Um, it ended up becoming the ace of clubs. Where Diamond. What? The name was Marcus Craig, the great female impersonator [01:10:00] Entertainment. Um, work there, but yeah, Nicole had, um, was the big, big, uh, drag wise up in Auckland at the time. Um, and many. And Moos and the Auckland lay girls and all of that were big up there. So Auckland had a very vibrant and for us in Wellington. Anyone who came from Auckland was sort of wow, you know, they're from Auckland. The the big glamour queens. You know, we were just sort of, you know, the slappers down in Wellington. But, you know, that's sort [01:10:30] of how it used to be. Carmen was about the only one that sort of put us up there with things like the balcony and all of that. But Auckland was where it happened, Really? For drag entertainment. Yeah, one thing I've got to mention about, Um, when we were talking about Carmen was, uh, you mentioned Bob Jones and the the whole kind of mayoral campaign. And I saw something it was like about in 2007, where he was kind of slating her and just calling her this, you know, kind of Maori bloke from [01:11:00] up north and address. Can you recall seeing that article? I can't recall it, but I have an opinion about, um Why? I think Bob Jones and his little bunch of groupies at the time decided to get in and, um, promote Carmen for the mayor of Wellington in 1977. Prior to that, remember, he had established the New Zealand Party, which, under Muldoon bid in the 1975 [01:11:30] election or whatever it was. And, um, so I think he was wanting to make a political point and thumb his nose at local government and shake it up a bit. And so I think for purely selfish reasons and no benevolence to Carmen, I might. This is just my opinion. No benevolence to Carmen, really. Just sort of put it to her. Um, you know, we'll put you up as a candidate and we'll bankroll you and we'll come up with your platform and so on and so forth, which he did, which was probably just his way [01:12:00] of thumbing his nose at local government. And, um and, you know, creating a bit of interest like that, using Carmen as the vehicle. And And so when Carmen prides herself on, um, having made statements like, um during that election campaign that she wanted to see homosexuality reformed, um, that she wanted prostitution to be legal and, um, and other such things like that, um, I think Carmen might have wanted. Of course, she wanted those things, but it was [01:12:30] sort of Bob and them that were articulating them through the press statements and media releases and the build up and all of that sort of thing. So I believe that he used her persona to, um, grab the headlines. Of course they were grabbed. It became quite sensational. I don't know whether they realised that she did as well as she did. She I think, um, she became fourth in that election which was eventually won by Sir Michael Fowler. Um, who won the majority that year. And I think from Carmen's perspective, well, she didn't mind. Probably if she was [01:13:00] being somewhat exploited and used in that way. Because, like I said, she was a huge PR machine in her own way. And, um, any publicity is good publicity, and it was good for her business, and it was making her even more famous, and that was absolutely true. So I think at the end of the day that that sort of both worked for each other. But I do have a cynical view of why I think Bob Jones got him behind her and, um, to to do that. I mean, there was even one point where, and they decided to put a press [01:13:30] release out saying that, um, Carmen and Ron Briley were engaged to be married, you know, they were funny little sort of, you know, stories like that that would emerge. I think Roger Gesco announced that on a radio windy programme, and indeed rang up Ron Briley, who was in Sydney at the time to inform, to ask him about his pending marriage to Carmen, which was all news to Ron Briley, of course, but so you can see what I mean. Um, it was a bit of sort of tongue in cheek and, um, you know, going on there. So, um yeah, that's my [01:14:00] view of what I reckon Bob Jones was doing with that car meal. And just before you mentioned Brett Sheppard and Tony. And we haven't actually covered, um, their kind of involvement in in kind of the hospitality industry and entertainment industries in New Zealand. But they were They were big, weren't they? They were, um, they Bret owned and opened a publication [01:14:30] called Out magazine, which I may stand to be corrected, but, um, it was probably one of the first nationally distributed gay, um, media in the country at the time. They were very, um, involved with homosexual law reform in the early to mid eighties. Of course, when that happened and were great promoters and and they were able to get the message out and the campaign out through their, uh, publication, they also owned, like I said, um, Alie [01:15:00] nightclub. But they also owned a, um, a book shop, and, um, and sex toys and things like that gay orientated for gay men and stuff like that. So they were, um, gay businessmen. Um, you know who. Yes, I guess pushed boundaries in their own way at that time became very successful, Um, and probably quite wealthy through it all. And, um, and helped many, many, many gay men particularly, but men and women and [01:15:30] and queens and and all of that. They they they are, um, important. Very important to our, um, political, um, development. I think it must have been quite an interesting situation in the eighties, uh, bringing in, um, gay publications. And I'm thinking like, uh, whether it's pornography or or or whatever, because, I mean, all of that would have been I'm assuming, seen as objectionable. Yes, it was. And I don't know how they got around that and probably had to deal with various court battles. [01:16:00] Um, over that sort of stuff. Um, I mean, of course you had, uh, adult the, uh, porn. You know, I can remember the adult film Theatre in Queen Street in Auckland for quite a while. Um, and, yes, gay stuff was sort of very, very, uh, closeted. I think they were. They had a shop in ANZAC Ave. Which is where they had, um, the out book shop [01:16:30] for quite a while. But then they opened up branches and had their, um, stuff distributed. You know, Wellington, I think Possibly Christchurch. Certainly. The out magazine, um, went out and then they had, um, travel desk, which was, um, you know, a travel agency. But, um, to help promote gay friendly travel, I guess, um, ends to, I guess spend your pink dollar with us, you know, kind of thing. And, um, [01:17:00] you know, all sorts of, uh, initiatives that they they took to support the gay community. Mm. Are there any other venues that we haven't talked about that you'd like to mention? We have mentioned Kay Road in Auckland, I suppose. Uh, but the roads kay road. I mean, it always has been that way, but, um, there were two fabulous lesbian women Adele and Leslie [01:17:30] who owned Clowns restaurant, which is a fabulous restaurant up on Kay Road. Um, frequented by anybody and everybody. It was a restaurant. Um, I think, actually, the Kai Bar is now where that venue was, and that's sort of now a sort of drag restaurant show. Um, there's been another drag show up on Cairo Garden. Now, the name of that escaped me to family bar. All of those bars and things [01:18:00] like that up there. It's sort of neither here nor there now, about, um, about having gay venues or specifically gay venues. And when I say gay venues, they weren't exclusive to gays. Of course. I mean, anybody could go to them, but they were known that they were going to be gay, you know, owned and run and and frequented by gay people or gay friendly people. And, uh, and anyone else who wanted to come along. Well, that's fine. But you're on our turf and and you won't be telling us to to, [01:18:30] um, tone down or anything like that. Mhm. Just wrapping up. I'm wondering if we can go back through all of those venues. And could you just tell me just a a brief idea of what you were doing in each venue? Mhm. So the Royal Oak. What were you doing there? Well, I did have a part time job briefly as a night porter at the Royal Oak Hotel. Otherwise, I just frequented it as a, um, as a bar to go to the tavern bar and the [01:19:00] bistro bar. Uh, Cummins balcony. I never worked there, but I went there to see the shows there sometimes. So I was a client there and, uh, her international coffee lounge. Oh, yes, I went there. It was just a venue where we where we could go out. And And I would, uh, get clients from there. Sometimes he met at all. No, I never went there. The powder? No, I never went there. It's a powder puff, [01:19:30] isn't it? But everyone called it the puff. Yes. Um, the and the Sorento coffee bar? No, I never went to them and club exotic. Yes. I worked at the club exotic initially as a comedian. And then I became a stripper there, and that's Also the club exotic? Yes, The one on the same. Yes, at the purple Onion. I was a stripper there. And the hole [01:20:00] in the wall? Oh, it was just a venue that I would attend. I never worked there, but, um, yes, it was just another club that, uh, we went to.
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