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Hi. I'm Jeffrey Marshall. Um, I'm 59 years old. Um, I came out at about 22 and have been involved in the gay community since that time. While not driven to leadership, I've tended to step up when I see a perceived need. Um, sometimes this is a I've been asked to join things, and then things have led from there other times. Um, it's just happened in a different way. Um, I remember [00:00:30] at secondary school, um, I wasn't elected to prefect, which was not completely surprising, but perhaps disappointing. And at the same time, it was a period when the, uh, students associations were being developed. Um, and so another a girl from the school and I actually set up the students association in that college. Uh, it wasn't hugely successful. Um, we weren't. We were driven more by the idea, perhaps, than having a need to actually achieve anything. But I guess it was the first sign of the way [00:01:00] I would perhaps behave later in life. Where do you think taking that kind of initiative comes from? I guess it's innate in the sense and in family upbringing. I've just always felt well, certainly as an adult. I've always known that if you saw that something was wrong, then you should do something about it. There's no point sitting back and complaining and doing nothing. You just had to get on and do something. Um, my mother was intelligent and intellectual, and [00:01:30] we used to have a lot of discussions, Um, as teenagers over the dishes and so on. So I was used to thinking my father was a businessman. So I guess from him I learned, um, not exactly drive and motivation alone, but the sense of getting out and doing things for yourself, I suppose those two things came together. Um, certainly. I was part of that, uh, late sixties Anti-vietnam generation, very concerned with social [00:02:00] issues. So the whole tenor of the time was that you were if you had a conscience, you got out there and did something about it. So were you involved with any specific groups? No. No, it was just a discussion with, um contemporaries and going on marches. Really? And how did that interrelate with your family? How did your parents react to to those kind of issues? Uh, my father was horrified. He had lost his only sibling in the Second World War. And he [00:02:30] felt that the Anti-war people were, um, just completely, utterly wrong. I remember chucking him chucking, um, friends of mine out of the house. And we were sitting around talking about, um, Anti-vietnam stuff. Antiwar stuff. One day, he got really angry and upset because of his brother. My mother was always sympathetic to the idea. When your father did that, how did how did you feel? Oh, God. Um, I was probably embarrassed that he had done it, um, and [00:03:00] upset. But I suppose I understood at the same time where he was coming from. Personally, I suppose. I mean, it's it's a it is. It is part of my character that I'm incredibly objective and rational, and so I always know that my way is not my view is not the only view possible. So I could see it from his point of view. As much as I disagreed with him, So was it quite AAA liberal or conservative household? It was a pretty liberal household. [00:03:30] No, my my parents were, uh well, what we're talking about mid sixties, uh, they were proactive in providing sex, sex education, to us. Um, and because my mother was intelligent and rational, um, everything was up for discussion. My father was an unthinking as an unconsidered conservative. It was just natural to him. But, um, other than that, he tended to let us. He they we just had freedom to develop our own ways. Pretty largely. So [00:04:00] when did you start realising that you liked men? Subconsciously, it was always there. But it wasn't until I read the Kinsey report at the end of secondary school. About 18, I think. And in the Kinsey report, he talks about bisexuality for the first time. Or at least that was the first time I'd ever come across it. And the moment it was quite revelatory. The the second I read that sentence, I remember thinking, Ah, [00:04:30] so that's what it's all about. And it made sense of things that I had experienced dreams I'd had or experienced or things that had happened over the past teenage years that I'd basically buried as being unacceptable and incomprehensible because I knew I was interested in women as well, or girls, at least at that stage. But at that point I recognised bisexuality and that it was from there on, it was more just a, um a process of several years and realising that in fact, the gay part was dominant. And now I would describe myself [00:05:00] as being exclusively gay. Um, but I think a lot of that and I find this is an interesting subject in itself. I think a lot of our sexual behaviour is learned and can be unlearned so that my sexual responses to women in those days, um, have basically been forgotten. Had you been aware of kind of homosexuality prior to that Kinsey report? Oh, yes. Um, certainly my best friend and I have been playing around since we were very small, [00:05:30] Um, which wasn't seen as homosexuality, but it was It was there. Um, no I. I was aware because there was there were things that had happened. I knew that, um, there were men who had I'd been followed once by a man, and I understood what was happening. Um, and I'd be being befriended by someone who was gay, and I knew what he wanted. But I was prepared to do things with him occasionally, [00:06:00] as in outings, while rejecting his advances. So I was aware of what it meant. It was just that, um, given that I was I seem to I was responding to girls. I just assumed it wasn't me. Were you involved in the gay political movements in the in the sixties and seventies? Uh, once I moved to Auckland, that was the I moved to Auckland in what, about 71? Uh, the There was the, um, gay rights [00:06:30] Gay Liberation Front on campus, and they were staging marches. Um, down Queen Street was particularly, and I took part in those and the gay dancers. So to only to the degree that, um, I was part of that loose, wider community. How was it marching in a gay rights march? Um, both exhilarating and frightening. Um, it was for me. I always have a need to be true to myself. [00:07:00] So to stand up and be counted was important personally and politically and quite exhilarating because of freedom, it creates at the same time, being very aware that there were people on the sidelines who were shouting abuse. And, uh, there was negativity around that. But in the end, I was strong. That was fine. [00:07:30] So another strand of your life that we haven't touched on yet is the whole idea of of nature and gardens and plants. When did that, um, aspect of your life begin? That's always been there. Uh, right from as from as long as I can remember, I've always been interested in the natural world. I've always explored the plants, animals. I, you might say now to my Shane, collected birds, eggs, collected butterflies, collected anything, grew plants. Uh, [00:08:00] as a teenager, my father built me a glasshouse so I could grow orchids. I mean, this is a This has always been a part of me. I left it behind for some years. I became a computer operator and programmer, um, and then went back to it when I was in England, where I wasn't legally allowed to work and managed to find work with a, um, uh, garden maintenance company and discovered that, um, I didn't actually melt in the rain, and I could work outside, and I didn't have to have an intellectual occupation. So when [00:08:30] I came back to Auckland, um, I had did a couple of things briefly, but basically through meeting someone who was working in garden and garden design in Auckland. Um, in the boom time of the eighties, when there was heaps of work, he basically gave me a list custom, a whole lot of customers, and, um, that just got me into it. But, um, the gardening. So the gardening is just a natural outshoot of a long interest in natural history. My initial interest was really about the plants [00:09:00] and growing them as much as anything. The design is almost grafted onto that, but I've always been interested in design in a general sense. I remember I was very interested in architecture as a kid, and I might have become an architect, except that, um, a friend of my father's who was an architect, assured me that architecture was all about building office buildings. And I wasn't interested in at least in that I was interested in housing. Um, so I abandoned the idea. Um, so the design grew [00:09:30] on me. Really? I suppose the more I worked in that area, the more I became aware of gardening or design possibilities. Um, it's always been a believer. Instinctively, I suppose. In lifelong education, I never stopped reading, talking, looking. Um, So the design skills slowly grow. What what goes into a good garden design? What what are the things that you look at? I have never been a designer who wants to create their own fantasy [00:10:00] or who wants to do hugely innovative things. My interest in garden design has always been about creating an environment for the clients to live in. So atmosphere has always been very, very important in creating a garden for me. Um, it's about integrating plants and gardens into a client's life. I've never been interested in the particularly the wow factor of someone walking in and saying, [00:10:30] Oh God, look at that. And then you find it's boring two months later because they've seen it. There's nothing really there. I want to create an atmosphere that can be lived in and explore that changes with the season. And I think that's perhaps where, uh, in the I'm a mm. I'm not an artist. I'm a synthesiser. I think that I've always made that distinction. And what is that distinction? What? Oh, I think a true artist is [00:11:00] a real innovator, Um, that they're flooded with ideas that they want to express where a synthesiser draws the elements that others have created which are the elements that we live within in society and puts together puts them together in a way which is satisfying. Um, the true creators are not synthesisers, but the synthesisers probably create products that the general market find [00:11:30] satisfying. There was some fantastic, uh, quotes, and I was an article that you featured in. I think it was 2009. Um, the idea of using familiar plants in an unfamiliar way and also that whole kind of less is more type thing. When you come to arranging or designing gardens, can you talk a wee bit about that? I would re result somewhat from the lessons more because it's easily misunderstood. I don't believe in minimalist gardens [00:12:00] at all. Um, As for using familiar plants in unusual ways, it's more. It's not about unusualness for the sake of it, but rather that familiar plants can be seen a new or suddenly they become attractive. When you didn't think they were by juxtaposition with other plants or in certain environments. So it's about creating a totality of atmosphere, textures, light and shade shades of colour. Uh, [00:12:30] and that, I think, is what I really meant about the um, the old, you know, familiar plants and unfamiliar settings. And also that colour is important in my gardens, but that it's not necessarily the colour of flowers. It's more the structural elements in the garden and the structure of greenery and and foliage colours, which are more year round. You belong to the fifth season. Can you tell me about that? What is that? The fifth season was a garden [00:13:00] group set up, I think about 95. Um, it was the idea of it was to have monthly meetings with generally outings to gardens or things of garden related interest and some social activities. And we saw an ad, probably. And I think it might have been man to man at that stage and joined within the first few months of it. Um, so the fifth season as it became. It wasn't known as that initially was one of the groups [00:13:30] which also led to the creation of the Hero Gardens Festival. Um, there's some dispute over where the initiative actually came from, but between, uh, gaba and the fifth season, the idea of a garden festival to raise money for her Bay house came about so initially It was a very much a joint effort between the two groups GABA providing some, uh, money backing and organisational background and fifth season providing, uh, gardens [00:14:00] and garden knowledge to be able to make it happen. Where does the name for the season come from? Oh, God knows. Um, we had another name. I think it was, but it was already registered. So when we became a registered group, they had to find a new name and all sorts of names were thrown up, and one of them names that was thrown up was fifth season. No one could ever really explain why it was a good idea. I always hated it. I think the idea was as a gay group, Um, we were outside the normal run of things and therefore [00:14:30] the idea of the fifth season outside the Four Seasons was somehow appropriate. I still think it's rubbish. And when you say a gay group, is it open to transgender lesbian? Oh, no. It was always a GB LT group. Um, the big issue in the early stages of whether the straight should be allowed to join. And not that I particularly remember anyone wanting to, um No, but no. It's been a mixed group from the start, very much, and it's quite sizable, isn't it? It's generally been 3, 350 [00:15:00] people have belonged over the years. Yeah, that's a very strong group. Oh, yeah. I mean, for a long time, we were probably the biggest gay, um, group in, well, New Zealand, probably certainly in Auckland. And given the population, that probably means New Zealand. Um, and it's always been a very good group because it wasn't revolving around youth or bar or anything like that. It was always very much a community organisation, Um, with anyone who was interested in gardens, even vaguely as a, you know, social group where [00:15:30] they could, you know, spend an afternoon going and visiting gardens, even with minimal knowledge. It was so it was a very good community group. Always. Yeah. So in the early days of the Heroic Gardens Festival, how many gardens from from that, um, fifth season group were were involved from memory? I think all of the initial gardens were owned by fifth season members apart from Horn Bay House itself, which we included in which was included in the first Couple of festivals. [00:16:00] Um, and it was only a bit further down the track. Um, when we needed to keep finding new gardens to refresh her gardens, that we needed to go outside, uh, and find find more gardens. And that often brought in people who weren't fifth season members. Although usually, especially once I was involved, we always tried to sign those people up to become fifth season members, which usually worked, at least for one year. [00:16:30] So these are all private gardens that are opened up to the public? Yes. All private. Yes. The idea always was that it was a showcase of gay owned or gay lesbian. Whatever. Um, gay owned gardens, um, opening as a fundraiser. And so how did it work? Oh, it was a It's always been a two day festival, Um, opening for six or eight hours a day. I can't remember exactly what it is. Probably longer, um, people buy a ticket and then [00:17:00] have two days to visit as many or as few of those gardens as they wish. Uh, the interesting thing, particularly in the beginning, it was very obvious that a lot of people buying tickets were as interested in the houses and lifestyles of the owners, and we sort of had to discourage people from peering in windows, et cetera, Uh, that had helped to draw the punters. So we were I was happy. Not everybody liked it. Um, in the first year they were, it was largely, I think, gay and lesbian visitors, [00:17:30] mainly because of where we could advertise but that quickly ramped up. And, um Well, God knows, by this third year, at least, if not earlier, we realised that the majority of visitors not the majority but the the biggest element were probably middle aged women interested in gardens and, uh, really not caring too much who own them. They just wanted to see plants and gardens. And, um, all the other big thing that we did, which proved very successful from the beginning, [00:18:00] really was we made sure that, um the garden owners were present to talk to visitors, and that was always a really important element of its success. I think how many visitors would go through a particular garden? Uh, hugely various at its peak. Uh, I know in our garden we had anything up to 1800 people over the two days. Uh, the Central City Gardens, especially the ones that were no better known, would get those sort of numbers consistently for several years. Um, so, yeah, there was a lot of people, that [00:18:30] number of people, uh, the kind of logistics of, actually, you know, allowing people through your garden or even just things like parking on the street. How How did you go about organising that parking on the street? I didn't want to know about, um because our garden was always open. I never had to face that. Although occasionally you would get anecdotal reports of people walking for miles down the road to reach us, but in selecting gardens, because I was involved with the organisation from year three. In selecting the gardens, we tried to make sure that there was, [00:19:00] um, reasonable access for a large number of people IE in terms of circularity. If there was a narrow passage, only then we had to think twice about a garden. So ideally, there should be separate, um, egress and ingress, just to make it easier to handle the numbers. Um, there were times sure when gardens became incredibly crowded, but, um, and are actually there were gardens. I remember where we did have to consider limiting the numbers at anyone's stage. So if things got [00:19:30] too crowded, we allowed for the possibility of people being asked to wait at the gate until, you know, people had left. And we were We knew about this problem because of the Trinity Garden Festival, um, which had run several times earlier and that we had picked up some ideas from and certainly they had some quite strict controls. So we were aware of that problem. Now you were the chair of the Hero Heroic Gardens Festival for a number of years, and, in fact, about seven years. What was involved with that role for you? I suppose [00:20:00] it was again, uh, ultimately about stepping up to a need. The person who had essentially run it for the first three years had to back off, uh, for personal reasons. And just because it always was exhausting. And so the members of the committee that left were left asked if I would share it. Um, I would add that at this point to my partner, John has always been very important to all the joint efforts. Things that we've done [00:20:30] um so he's always been there as well. But so that was a matter then of of improving the festival and making it work as well as we could. One of the reasons I got involved in running the, uh festival was because I've been critical in the second year of the way the ticket was designed. And so someone said, Well, if you think you've got a better idea, come on the committee and do something about it, which is what I did. Um, And once I took over chairmanship, um, it was a continuing process of trying to make the festival work better of [00:21:00] in all ways. Really. You know, the quality of the gardens maintaining the standards, the numbers of gardens, keeping that consistent future planning so that we would try and always if somebody wasn't didn't want to open their garden, try and tee them up for a future year. Um, we worked very hard. It was seven years. We worked very hard to develop the festival, and I think at its peak, when we finished, we gave, I think about 60,000, um, to the city mission [00:21:30] who had taken over from Bay House as our charity of choice at that stage because Bay House had closed. Um, we always believed in the festival both as a fundraiser and as a community event as a showcase for the gay community to the wider straight public. Because we had become very aware that the images created for a lot of straight people by the Garden fest were extremely positive. Of course, [00:22:00] it was a long way from the bars and and sex as much as I love bars and sex. Uh, but it so it became very yeah, it was just a really important PR exercise for the wider community or to the wider community, as well as being a great focus for the for the gay community in Auckland. It's interesting hearing you speak, um, because a number of times you've said things about, you know, stepping up and and and kind of, uh, taking on the challenge and [00:22:30] the whole idea that you don't need to accept how things are now but that things can change and that you're always looking to improve or move forward or create a positive difference. Yeah, I There's two parts that I think I'm very much a realist. which means if I think that something is a pipe dream, I'm not going to put the energy into something which I see is absolutely hopeless. [00:23:00] But if I can see real scope for improvement in perhaps small ways, then I can see you know, Then I think you are duty bound. Um, you owe it to the wider community, something like that, to to do something, Um, all of the things that I have become involved with, I've essentially been asked to do. And then where? Because I do see room for improvement. I speak up or do [00:23:30] something. Um, I don't have a lot of patients with dreamers, but I equally get very frustrated with people who criticise think they can see how something should be done, but they won't actually make any efforts to do something about it themselves. Um, it seems to me that the that middle way of everybody making the improvements they see possible, um is is really important to society. Another interesting thing that I I'm picking up is how one [00:24:00] thing leads to another. So the gardening leading to the the fifth season leading to the heroic gardens and that lead on then to the Gabba Charitable Trust. Yes, it was. I was trying to think about the timeline of this earlier. Um, I sort of got involved in the organisation for heroic gardens. Um, I don't think I was chair at that stage, and the charitable trust was being set up. I don't think I was even a member of GABA, but someone decided that, um, [00:24:30] I might be useful on the trust, so I was invited to join. Um, that seemed like an interesting idea. And I suppose I was flattered, of course. So I became a trustee, and that was always very interesting because our major role really in those days was to distribute the money that GABA had raised. So it meant, um, having my say about which community groups got supported, which is always an interesting idea, Um, and just being [00:25:00] involved and meeting different people and seeing what was out there, it was always good fun. What? What kind of drove your decisions in terms of what were the groups that you thought really should be, you know, worth supporting. We made a decision very early on which I was very keen on, um, which was that the money shouldn't go to individuals for their own benefit. But as much as possible, all the help should go to groups which then fed back into the community. So [00:25:30] it was perhaps, um, supporting like the swim team got uniforms. That was a a community driver, um, or body positive or, um, God, Rainbow youth. So it was. Yeah, it was about It was about the wider community. It was about education in its broadest sense. Those are the areas I was interested in changing attitudes over your time with the the charitable [00:26:00] trust. Have you found that it's been easier to to raise money or is it actually got harder to actually tap them to? To To? Well, the trust was never really a fundraising body. It was designed as the, um, the spending body. If you like that. Eventually you ran into problems because the the gabber executive changed over the years and became partly because I think the way the trust had behaved, we had sort of Deli made [00:26:30] a point of saying that we were separate from the executive. We had our own decisions to make. We came to be seen as a separate body and the executive, in under changing leadership, began to wonder why they were supporting the trust and why we weren't raising the money. It was never the idea. Um and so for a mixture of reasons, that was part of it. Also, perhaps the economic climate. Certainly we started the charity auction, which was the main, [00:27:00] um, source of funds for the trust started to get more difficult with the, um, recession. Was it three or four years ago? Um, and the whole mood of what we're doing now has started to change under new leadership again. Into what? Well, um, the trust and gabber are drawing closer again, and we we started looking for new ways of raising money. So I mean, these are in early stages yet and [00:27:30] remains to be seen how successful they've been. But certainly under the, um, new President Glenn Sims, he's been very keen that the trust and the community activities should come back as a a focus which had been lost for a couple of years in terms of the applicants to the charitable trust. Has that changed over the time that you've you've been there, has the the type of applicant changed? No, Uh, not really. [00:28:00] The biggest change actually came from a trust initiative. Uh, was while I was the chair of the trust, but it wasn't my idea. The idea came up that we should introduce, um, scholarships for secondary students. Uh, so that we've just had now three years of that, and that's been absolutely fantastic. Uh, we initially put up the idea that we would do one scholarship a year for a gay leader from secondary schools for their first year of tertiary studies. [00:28:30] We've ended up giving more than one each year for a multiplicity of reasons, partly because we just love them so much. But it's been absolutely fantastic. Um, not just getting the applications, but actually interviewing the shortlist. It's been one of the the best things I've done in the last few years has been interviewing these incredible seven forms, not just meeting them and seeing what drives them. But also hearing how how they live their lives at school, what their schools are like the support or lack of it from their teachers [00:29:00] and fellow students. It's been quite extraordinary. Quite amazing. And these are completely out students. Oh, yeah, I mean to be eligible for the scholarship. They've got to be out. They've got to, um, have made a difference to the gay community at their school. So they've got to be good gay role models. And that's been, yeah, quite some of the stories you get in terms of them helping other students or the way despite being in relatively, either neutral to homophobic [00:29:30] schools, they've risen to become head Boy or on the school board or whatever. Um, just through a shared drive force of personality and the willingness to be out and to face up to it all, it must be a wonderful chance to see, uh, a new generation of of kind of openly gay people that are out there doing positive work are incredible. I mean, when I was at school, there were no one I knew at school was gay, although there were, you know, rumours about people. Um, [00:30:00] and certainly it wouldn't have been acceptable. So while I know there's still a huge amount of homophobia difficulties out there when you see what the younger generation can do and are able to do if they have some strength is extraordinary and it's it's really inspiring. Um, people, Some people seem to think we've made no progress. But God, when you look at what some of these secondary students are doing today, it's fantastic. I guess doing those kind of interviews would also give [00:30:30] you an insight into some, uh, issues that are still around in the gay and lesbian communities in Auckland. There is obviously, there are still students who are victimised or who are unable to come out because it's still not comfortable enough. You still have to need a certain strength to be out at school. Um, perhaps for young. For students today, it's the most marginalised group [00:31:00] is probably still would be. Have to be the transgender, I'm guessing in part. But what was extraordinary in some of the interviews was the support that some colleges provided to transgender students. Um, there are I can't remember the schools, but I think it was a South Auckland school that had toilets available to, and we heard an extraordinary story out of West Auckland where a very large student who was being hassled by the 1st 15 basically just beat him up and, um [00:31:30] so that the school became very safe for transgender students and started attracting them. Uh, but it was That was more. While it was basically to hear the story, it was also evidence of the problem still being faced. Obviously, um, in in the other environment and certainly in that school, if he hadn't been particularly stroppy and strong it, that would have been a major problem for students. Mhm. If someone's listening to this recording and is just really unsure about, you know, they'd like to contribute in some way. They'd like to start [00:32:00] doing work in the community, but just don't know where to start. What? What kind of advice would you give them? How how do you How do you start making a difference? I guess basically, by joining the relevant, uh, organisation, there are very few people who do things solo. Um, unless they're a particularly strong individual with very strong ideas who just suddenly land on [00:32:30] us. I think most people that make a difference have become involved in a group because they're interested in the area and then start working through that organisation. Um, if somebody wants feels they want to make a difference, then the only thing that's really can either be holding them back is perhaps diffident about putting themselves forward. So if they [00:33:00] would like to make it, if they would like, they've joined an organisation and would like to make a difference. But, um, no one's listening to them, then it it can only be about pushing yourself more. But then I suspect that pushing yourself is something that's part of you or not, So I don't quite know what the answer to that is. I mean, basically, if you want to make a difference, get involved. I suppose it's also that idea of knowing that you have the power to make a difference. [00:33:30] You know, not not not just being a consumer of something, but actually, uh, an active part of participant. Having the power to make a difference is both being in the right place and having the will or sufficient will to power in the Nietzsche in terms. If I've got that correct, because I think if you're if you don't like something but don't have the [00:34:00] energy or drive to do anything about it, I don't know that that can be created. I think from my experience it's more that something innate in me was released by the things that I got involved in I was asked to do rather than it being created from the outside. Uh, it's hard, harder for me to imagine someone who wanted to make a difference who was joining an organisation [00:34:30] but then couldn't make a difference unless basically, their personality was such that they just weren't able to work with others or, uh, push themselves forward. And the creation of confidence, which I suppose is what that's about, is a whole separate issue.
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