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My name is Gino Cisneros. I'm, uh I'm an American citizen who's lived in New Zealand for about the past 14 years as a permanent resident. Uh, I've done a bachelor of theology, uh, degree, which is a three year degree that I took over about five years. Um, grew up Pentecostal, a very fundamentalist Pentecostal church for the most part of my life. Um, I have a partner. Uh, we've been together four years over four years. Um, [00:00:30] we're sitting in Saint Matthew in the city. What's been your involvement with ST Matthew? Uh, I first came to Saint Matthew in the city eight years ago, and I had, uh, was new to Auckland, and I was looking for a job. Uh, and at the same time, I was also looking for a church, and, uh, and I came across Saint Matthew's website, and, uh, and it sounded interesting to me. I was, uh, probably still consider myself a fundamentalist or even, um, up to that point. And for a while after [00:01:00] that, even, uh, when I started coming to Saint Matthews. And, uh, I attended an 8 a.m. service one morning and our victor Glenn Cardy, preached and um, I was sort of taken aback by the kind of language he used to describe. Uh uh, God and the experience of God. It was, uh, something I hadn't heard before. And it, uh, obviously must have appealed to me because it stuck with me and, um, made me curious, uh, to know whether or not there was other ways of [00:01:30] being Christian And, uh, so that relationship with the congregation, uh, developed and, uh, I applied for the role that was open here, Which at the time was, uh uh, uh, it was I was just going to cover marketing communications till, uh, someone else was brought on board for that and then, uh, became part of the administration staff and then eventually became the events manager here. What kind of language was being used? Uh, it was it was the general gender neutral language that he talked about God, and he didn't, [00:02:00] um it actually had nothing to do with gender. In fact, he was advocating for the opposite. Um, I think his, uh what I eventually learned about his theology that appealed to me was that he didn't believe God was, uh, you know, this male being that lived up in heaven and, um, sort of intervened in the in the affairs of the world whenever it suited him. Uh, that God was far more mysterious and bigger, and, uh and so I suppose with all that, I came to, [00:02:30] um, realise that it was not possible for me any longer to put God into this little box That was comfortable, uh, for me. And it was actually quite liberating to come to that realisation. Tell me, why is religion and spirituality important to you? Religion? Uh, you're right in in making a distinction between the two, because I don't think they're the same, um, re, uh, spirituality, uh, from my perspective, spirituality is, uh, anything [00:03:00] as formal as, uh, as a ritual of of the Eucharist. Coming to church on Sunday mornings, uh, to anything is sort of casual as, um uh, lighting a candle and, uh, having a cup of hot tea at night. Uh, to me, that's very spiritual as well. Um, I think what spirituality does is it is meant to have from my perspective and a nurturing aspect to it. Uh, so in other words, you keep finding ways to keep your spirit nurtured as you're doing, um, [00:03:30] work in religion. Uh, And for us here at Sathe, of course, that's all, uh, largely tied up with social justice, uh, issues. And, uh, the other part of spirituality as well is that, uh, it also part of spirituality is trying to understand what spirituality is. And so I think, um, for myself, I mean, it encompasses all of that. It's It's very relational thing. It teaches me how to relate to people. Um uh, [00:04:00] you know, those kinds of skills and dealing with people that don't come natural to some of us, uh, opening our minds, understanding other ways of their opinions. So, uh, you know, they both go, They go hand in hand, religion and spirituality. And, um, one should nurture the other, I think, And in terms of religion, what what are your thoughts on religion? Uh, my thoughts on religion are that, um, I. I have to tell you about, uh, the case that we're in. Uh, is I met [00:04:30] a a priest outside who I know who is an acquaintance of mine outside, uh, the other day, and she mentioned to me that people were very, uh, angry at me. The Anglican church, uh, for bringing, you know, the case that we're gonna talk about today, uh, to the Human Rights tribunal. And, uh, and her position on that was they're angry at you because you were being disloyal to the church. And I didn't respond to her when she said that. But when I went away and thought about it, I thought, Well, my loyalty isn't actually to the church. It's to [00:05:00] the gospel message. And so religion at its best organised religion at its best for me is, uh, uh, something that doesn't require loyalty. It's not a membership. It's not. Uh I mean, you don't have to fill out a membership form and get approved to be a part of Anglicanism. It's just not the way it works. And I think it's, uh, ideally, uh, organised. Religion is more fluid and it's welcoming, and it allows for a plurality of ways of being Christian, And, uh, it doesn't always do that. [00:05:30] And I think, uh, a lot of the time it doesn't do that. And I suppose I kind of, uh, see a lot of what I do and a lot of what we do here? Um, Saint Matthews is kind of, um, uh, sort of being a beacon. And, uh uh, and another example of another way of being Christian, Sir Matthew and the city has, um, had a strong association with the, uh, lesbian, gay, transgender, bisexual community. Um, for [00:06:00] decades. How does Saint Matthew fit in with the Anglican church? We are, uh we're probably more vocal, uh, in terms of our public theology in terms of our sermons. And, um uh, you know, the articles we write for publication, and our billboards are a big part of our public theology. Um, but there, uh, but there is a place for us in the Anglican church and and, you know, among the spectrum of different ways of being anglican. Um, [00:06:30] And I think, uh, you know, you you get you can get very extreme examples of conservative churches, and there is also a place for them here, um, in the Anglican church. So I don't, um So is your question. How do we fit in? How how? How does it relate to the the the rest of the Anglican Church in New Zealand? Yeah, I think it it adds to the plurality of voices. It adds to the example that there's different ways of being Christian. Yeah, this one's more, uh, socially justice focused. We understand, [00:07:00] um, maybe our mission differently in terms of the rest of Anglicanism. But, uh, there's certainly progressive churches, um, other than Saint Matthew's, you know, even here in New Zealand, there's a few and, um, overseas as well. What prompted you to want to become a priest? I think, uh, let's Look, um I don't think becoming a priest is something a person wants to do. I kind of think of it as, um uh, like, for [00:07:30] example, me being a gay man, it's something that is part of my identity. It's not so much what I do, it's who I am. And I think that, uh, I experienced what we call the calling or a calling. Um, very early on in childhood. Um, my mother reminds me that, uh, when I was very young, I'd get home from church and line up all my stuff animals and preach to them from my nursery rhyme books. Which is, um, you know, a sure sign for her that I was Something was going on there. Uh, and I preached my first, uh, a sermon [00:08:00] in a, uh, in a Pentecostal church when I was 12 years old. Um, taught Sunday school, um, led Bible studies. I've, uh uh It's always been there. And so, um, the interesting thoughts that I have about, uh, being a priest is, uh, whether or not you a person gets ordained or not, you don't stop being a priest because it's part of who you are. The the sort of ordination part of it is, um, for example, when the same people the same reason people get married [00:08:30] is it, you know, have a church service in front of their family and friends because it's a public declaration and a public acknowledgement, um, their relationship to each other and and the church ordination is similar. Uh, it's a, uh, a declaration that the church is formally recognising that part of your identity. What is the status in New Zealand at the moment? In terms of, um, ordination of gay priests? Uh, there there's a bit of history. Do you want to know the history? [00:09:00] Ok, uh, the policy as it stands within our House of bishops, and, uh and that is for the so in Anglicanism, we have, uh, a three church, which we are unique in the rest of the world. Uh, that we have three archbishops that share the same job. Uh, one is for, uh, tika Maori. One is for Tika Pacifica. Uh, and the other is, which is the stream, Uh, the strand that I'm involved with And, uh, about, [00:09:30] uh, 10 years ago or more, Our house of bishops, uh, made a decision that they were no longer going to be ordaining any gay people who were not, uh, celibate. So that's sort of different. It was a, uh, something imposed on on on gay, uh, clergy that wasn't imposed on heterosexual clergy. And, uh, that came about because in, um, I think in about 2003, 2005, [00:10:00] somewhere in there, uh uh, in America, there was, uh, an Anglican priest in America were called Episcopalians, uh, named Jean Robinson. And he was openly gay and in a relationship with his same sex partner. And he had, uh, been elected, uh, to be the bishop of, uh, New Hampshire. And what his election to that role did was it started a firestorm in the worldwide Anglican Communion. Uh, so much so that now, uh, very conservative [00:10:30] churches were now calling for a moratorium. Uh, which the bishop, Uh, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams at the time. Uh, he and, uh, and and the committees basically determined that they were going to ask the rest of the community not to ordain any more, Uh, gay bishops who were not celibates until the Worldwide Communion had a chance to work their way through these issues and until some consensus was reached. And, uh, what's happened in New Zealand is our house of bishops have taken that a step further. [00:11:00] They said not only will we not, uh, allow the election of gay bishops who are not celibate, we are also not going to allow the ordination of gay and lesbian, uh, priests or deacons, uh, who are not in a celibate relationship. So that was kind of, uh, that's how the policy came about. Um, and that's kind of, uh why I think that this this policy, I mean, it can be considered a policy of discrimination. Uh, the time before that, uh, it just wasn't asked [00:11:30] of potential ordinance, whether or not they were gay or straight or, um so it wasn't a problem up until that point. So where does that leave? Say, um, ordain gay priests in New Zealand now? Well, we had, um I know a priest who who lives down Otago way, uh, who was ordained by his bishop amongst some protests. Um, the sort of thing I suppose it's important to know is the reasons why [00:12:00] the bishops, uh, believed that they had to enact this policy, uh, was because after the ordination election of Jean, uh, Jean Robinson, they understood their role, Uh, that they were not. They did not have autonomy basically over who they were allowed to ordain. And, uh, and our our bishop of Auckland, has said on a number of occasions that he, uh you know, he is the bishop of all Anglicans in this diocese, and, uh, and feels like he can't move forward in ordaining gay people. [00:12:30] Um, because it would be unfair to the parts of the church that haven't, uh, that haven't taken that path yet. Uh and so they There have been a few ordinations since the time. I mean, it really depends on the Bishop. This is now a retired bishop that ordained this person down south. Um, but as it stands now, there are no candidates getting through the ordination process who are gay and in a same sex relationship. Can you explain [00:13:00] to me why celibacy was picked on as a reason for not ordaining gay people? Well, it, uh, it goes back to the very heart of Of of the controversy is that, um uh, there is a belief in some parts of the church that, uh, that the union got intended, and we hear this quite often in public debate about marriage equality. Um, uh, that God defines has given us the definition of marriage as between one man [00:13:30] and one woman. Uh, I suppose the, uh, the part about non celibate same sex relationships is that, uh, there are still very conservative parts of our church who believe that, um, the gay people are defective intrinsically in some way. Uh, the the love that, uh, you know, a couple who are the same sex can possibly be, um, an authentic. And it couldn't possibly be something that, [00:14:00] uh, that God would favour. And so, uh, that's kind of how the policy has come about is, uh, lots of people are using that as an argument to say, Uh, the gay people cannot possibly express love in a true sense of love as, uh, as do a man and a woman in a relationship. So it's it goes back to the, you know, to the argument that being gay is sinful, and, um and that's where you that's the origins of it. [00:14:30] So this is happening in the mid two thousands in terms of the non ordination of, of, of, of, of gay people. Why do you continue to to want to kind of move forward with this like, in terms of, like, become ordained in this church? Um, well, part of, uh, part of the argument in the tribunal, uh, for us is that we, um uh the part the the section [00:15:00] of the Human Rights Act that we are appealing to. Uh, section 39. Uh, our interpretation of it is that a church, uh, would has to, uh, be able to prove to a tribunal that, uh, that this is inherent in their beliefs. In other words, if I was Catholic, I probably could not be doing what I'm doing because Catholics have a very, um, very clear religious belief about who can be priests. Uh, they require their priests to be male and celibates. Uh, so they make no distinction. [00:15:30] They don't say. Uh, well, heterosexual priests, uh, don't have to be celibate, but gay priests do. I mean, it's it's the overall policy and, uh, religious belief for them. What we're saying is that in Anglicanism, the same cannot be said to be true. And, uh, that goes back to there being a plurality of ways of being Anglican. And there are gay and lesbian priests, uh, now who are in same sex relationships. So we know that that has not always been the case. We know that, [00:16:00] um, that this is a relatively new, uh, way of, uh, treating gay and lesbian Anglicans in terms of Anglicanism in New Zealand. So, like I said just the past 10 or so years that this has been happening. And before that, uh, people just didn't question it. They didn't ask you when, when you know, when you went to see your bishop, whether or not you were gay or straight. And is that a kind of conversation you've had with the Bishop of Auckland. In terms of I mean, have you ever kind of had a chat with him [00:16:30] and said, Oh, and that homosexuality has come up or Yes, I, uh you have to keep in mind as well that I've been, um, working on this issue with the bishop's office for the past seven years. I made my first contact seven years ago with, uh, then Bishop John Patterson. Um, and again when I, uh, when I met Bishop Ross a couple of years ago. Um, so I've been having these conversations with the bishop's office for, you know, for seven years. And [00:17:00] when I went to see Bishop Ross, he, uh, he was a newly elected bishop. He hadn't been in office long. Um, and, uh, the first thing I asked him was, Do people have to disclose their sexuality and relationship status to you? And he believed that that was appropriate to do that. Uh, and so I did. Um, So I did that for a for a couple of reasons. Uh, I wanted to make sure that I was starting off on the right foot with him. Uh, the first is because I want to be able to get through. [00:17:30] Um, the process. Honestly, I don't wanna have to hide who I am. Um, I'd already been preaching, you know, from Saint Matthew's pulpit in the Auckland Community Church, Um, for a few years. And, uh, so my sexuality, I you know, I've always been very open about it, and, uh, there was no secret. Uh, and the other part of that is is that I didn't want him to ordain me and then have a firestorm come upon him. Um, when it came to light that I was gay and living [00:18:00] in a relationship, I didn't think that was fair on him either. So, uh, it was for those two reasons that I asked that question of him and then made the disclosure that, yes, I was gay and in a relationship. And what was the response? Uh, he we talked a little bit about, um uh, you know, about the current policy in the House of Bishops, and I said, Yes. I'm very aware that, um, that that is the case, And, uh, and I know that bishops aren't ordaining any gay people in same [00:18:30] sex relationships at, uh, for the time being. But what I would be interested in what I would be would like to ask you, um, is whether or not you will at least allow me into the process of discernment. That process of discernment is the process whereby the bishop tests your calling, uh, to see if you were being called to ordained ministry, and, uh, and I also made it clear to him that I realised that it would not necessarily lead to ordination. I mean, even, um, [00:19:00] take the sexuality out of the equation. And, uh, no person when they go through the discernment process is guaranteed to be ordained at the end of that process. Um and so he, uh I said, you know, I would be willing to, uh, to wait, you know, to do the work that was required to try and help the church get through this. And he said he was not closed off to that, Uh, but he wanted to take advice, uh, from the archbishop, who at the time was Archbishop David Moxon. [00:19:30] And, um and so I left there, you know, feeling somewhat hopeful because he wasn't completely closed off to the idea. And, um uh, and so that kind of, uh you know, I kept in contact with him, and, you know, eventually he did receive a letter from one of the church, Uh uh, judges, chancellors, uh, saying that, uh, no, it would be against canons right now to do that. Uh, until a decision is made by General Synod, uh, that you can proceed with ordinations. [00:20:00] And, uh, but even then, that still wasn't No, that was so, you know, let's do some more work around it. Let's you know, it's been kind of like that, though for the past seven years, it's been Let's do some more work around this. Let's do some more listening some more. Uh, keeping in mind, the church has been dealing with the with the idea of, uh, same sex unions for the past 30 years, uh, in in the New Zealand Church. So it's been, uh, we've been struggling with the issue for a long time. So how did we get from [00:20:30] there to taking a case to the human rights tribunal? What happened? A lot of frustration. I suppose it was, um it was, uh, you know, that part of, uh of this journey for me has been happening in the past two years. So it meant that that was basically that was two years of, um, seeking a lot of advice. A lot of, uh, prayerful meditation, a lot of, um, anxiety. A lot of not sleeping at night [00:21:00] to get to the point where I said yes. This is something that I think is the right thing for me to do. And, uh, I mean, there was a few issues around that that I had to get past, but, uh, that I'd worked my way through. But for the most part, once I made the decision to do it, I've never and not felt that it was right. I've always felt that it's been right in my spirit to do what I'm doing. What are some of the issues and and possible consequences that you were thinking of? Um, before you took the action. [00:21:30] Um, I'm a strong proponent of separation of church and state and, uh, church and state because of my, um, because of being American, it's, uh, a much bigger issue in America than it is here. Uh, church and state has not evolved in the same way in New Zealand. as it has in America. Uh, but knowing that what I didn't want to happen was, uh, eventually I came to, um, hope that, uh, one outcome [00:22:00] of this would not be that the that the state reaches into the church and says, you have to change your beliefs. Uh, because I don't believe that would be a good thing. Uh, I, I suppose. I sort of, um I had to start understanding this in a different way, and it basically comes down to what I'm asking of the tribunal and what I'm asking of the tribunal is two things. One. I'm asking them to make a determination as to whether or not, uh I was discriminated against. And the second, uh, part of that is, [00:22:30] uh, if I was discriminated against under the human rights legislation, Section 39 is it unlawful? Because, uh, as I said before, uh, if I were Catholic, I probably would not be able to do this because, uh, Catholics can prove that this is a clear belief for them and therefore have an exemption under the act. Whereas in Anglicanism it is not like that. Were there other avenues that you could have followed rather than going to the tribunal. [00:23:00] Uh, the Anglican church has no formal process to make a complaint about discrimination. Uh, when it pertains to ordination that I know of, um, if they had, I would hope that, uh, a bishop or someone would have said that to me some time over the past seven years. So for me, there there was no other option, uh, for me to have a voice. Uh, and that's is largely why I I chose to take the path I've taken. Was it you personally [00:23:30] taking a case to the tribunal, or was it a kind of a large body? Uh, well, we have a society. The society is, uh, the gay and lesbian clergy anti discrimination society. Uh, which is a group of people, uh, who are passionate about issues of, um, you know, justice and equality and especially passionate about this issue. Um, that society was sort of, uh, established, uh, for this purpose. [00:24:00] And, uh, and they sort of act as a, uh so they do it in support of me. So I think as part of my support network, um, and, uh, also the the human rights the, uh, director of proceedings wanted, uh, thought it might be too much for one person to try and do this by themselves. And, uh, was concerned that we had that I had some sort of society to, uh, support me through it. And that was the main reason why. [00:24:30] And, um and, uh, so the complaint is actually in their name. It's the GLS versus the bishop of Auckland. Are there any other reasons why it is better to have, uh, a group take a complaint rather than an individual? Um, it can be, uh, luckily for me, because I come from a fundamentalist background and and working at Saint Matthew in the city and with, you know, the firestorms that help some happen sometimes around our billboards and public theology, [00:25:00] Um, was I kind of developed a thick skin. Uh, that kind of I mean, sort of prepared me for something like this, Um, but for other people, I would not recommend going it alone. I think it's a very good idea to have a support network that helps support people who choose to do something like this. So, yes, I don't suggest doing it alone, and I don't think um uh, as a as a rule, I don't think the human [00:25:30] Rights Commission suggests people go it alone. So take me through the process. What? What actually happens with with a complaint? I mean, first of all, do you call it a complaint? Or is it it's more a case or Yeah, it's, uh yeah, You hear different words. It's not a trial. It was a hearing. It's not a, um, a criminal charge. It's a It's a complaint. Uh, the first part of that because I already, um, had, uh, before I approached the Human Rights Commission. I already had a lawyer. Um, that is David Reich from [00:26:00] Reich and Associates. Who, uh, he's a human rights lawyer who specialises in refugee and asylum seeker, uh, cases. And, uh, So basically, the first step for us was to, uh, approach the commission with our complaint, and they make a determination. They don't say whether discrimination has happened or not. What they say is yes or no, that you have an arguable case. Uh, from that, uh, I think a large part of what the commission does is they see their work is also, [00:26:30] um, a reconciling work. So they have various processes for mediations and things like that. Um, if those other processes are not successful, you know where the two, where the complaint and the, uh, come to any, uh, sort of agreement. Then, uh, your next step is to submit it to the office of the human Rights, uh, proceedings director, who then, uh, determines whether or not he or she are willing to [00:27:00] take on your case and have a case taken to the tribunal in their name. And then, uh, once that happens, then my lawyer becomes counsel instructed because he then becomes instructed by the office of the Human Rights Proceedings Commissioner And, uh, I. I know it gets kind of complicated because then it's the, uh the so society. Our society, the GO. A is the plaintiff, and then I'm the complainant. So there's quite a number of people involved, um, from our perspective in bringing this case and [00:27:30] where are we now in the process. So I won't. We won't kind of skip a kid, but just we from what you've described, where are we now in that? Where we're at now is we've completed the hearing and we are now waiting for the tribunal to do its work. Um, which we understand could be as soon as July or August. Or, um, it could even be a year or so. Uh, so we're basically waiting for them to come back with their decision is where we're at right now. OK, What was the reaction of the church, [00:28:00] uh, to having this complaint laid out of about 60 or 70 emails and messages that I've received? Um, and, you know, I would say the majority of those were from inside the church from inside Anglicanism, uh, were very supportive. I've had one email that could possibly be considered, um, hate mail. Um, and I'm also, uh, so II. I mean, I know that there's a lot of people in the Anglican church in New Zealand that are not happy about what I'm doing. Um, [00:28:30] and they don't have to be happy about it. Uh, this is a path I've chosen for myself. Um, but for the most part, I mean, our congregation here at Saint Matthew's have been wonderful and supportive, and, um, and they are part of the reason why my partner and I never sort of felt we were doing this alone. We always felt that we had, uh the support we needed and such. I can't over, um, overstate how important that is. Um, but for the most part, I mean, I some people sort of sit in the middle. They, you know, sort of understand [00:29:00] that this case has arisen out of frustration. And, um and, uh, are trying to understand what what if any good can come from it Or what are the possible implications of, um, if it doesn't go? Uh uh, one way or the other. Um, and it's those people that I have spent a good deal of time communicating with. And, um, it's important for them to understand. I mean, there's, uh there is misinformation happening at the moment that the tribunal is being asked to [00:29:30] force the Anglican Church to change its beliefs. And that's clearly not what we're asking. Um, and that's not part of the scope of their power or what they do in terms in terms of the Human Rights Act. So it it is largely those people that I've taken more time to, um, have the discussion with, um but I think the you know, the other. The other wonderful thing that's kind of happened is it's spurred off lots of conversation right now in the Anglican church in a way that I think, [00:30:00] um, has not happened for some time. And I think it's really important for us to be having those conversations. And I think that, uh uh, when we sort of try to sweep it under the door, pretend that gay people and lesbian people are not in the church or that we I mean, we're not a new phenomenon. Um, we have always been part of the church. We've always been part of Christianity of Anglicanism, and so I think it's, um I mean, I don't, [00:30:30] uh I don't try to say that I'm speaking for all gay people. I'm not even speaking for all gay Anglicans. I'm only speaking for myself, but that's my observation that there's a lot of helpful conversation that are coming out of, uh of what's going on. Can you summarise the case? Uh, both your case and and and also the the church's case that was presented to the tribunal. Yes. Uh, my case is, uh uh [00:31:00] I mean the CO. I'll stay away from the complex legal arguments. But from my perspective, uh, we are arguing that, uh, the Anglican Church, the Diocese of Auckland, um, and the Anglican Church as a whole does not have, uh, a belief that gay and lesbian people who are not celibate cannot become ordained. Um, and as far as, uh, the bishops, uh, legal team are arguing, um, [00:31:30] that he does not have the authority or the autonomy to ordain whoever he pleases. And he is basically saying that there would have to be a change. The General Senate would have to vote, make a conscious vote, um, for that to happen. And they have not done that. Um, so it's sort of I mean, it comes down to basically the way that the bishops understand their role in New Zealand and we're saying, Well, this is sort of a This is a new understanding of the way that they understand [00:32:00] the role, because why, before, uh, was it not a big issue? Why? Just up until you know the election of Gene Robinson did it become an issue? So those are the and the and the tribunal has to determine whether this is religious belief or doctrine. um So the sort of questions that they were asking were around that, um, they because unfortunately, they have the task to try and make a determination as to whether or not, uh, the church has an exemption like the Catholic Church might. [00:32:30] And so who was sitting on the tribunal? The tribunal has three members. Um, it has a chairperson. Uh, who in our case, Uh, I is Roger Hanes QC, Uh, and two members that sit alongside the chairperson. And that was Doctor Hickie. And, uh, Gavin Cook a gentleman by the name of Gavin Cook. And that's what the tribunal is. That's how the tribunal is made up. What [00:33:00] was it like during the hearing presenting? Presenting to him. It was a, uh I was the first person being called to the witness stand. And I, um uh, the tribunal and the defence lawyers had already had a hard copy of my statement. Uh, and I basically read out my statement, um, and, uh, basically talking about my journey and how long I've been dealing with this, and, um, and also about the, uh, sort of emotional [00:33:30] costs of it. I mean, uh, discrimination, Um, you know, it's tightly related to hurt and humiliation. I mean, there's all kinds of emotions that come out. Um uh, for a while there as well. I. I was trying to give some sort of voice, uh, to the pain that discrimination causes. And, uh, And for me, part of that pain is not just being sort of feeling like I've been isolated. Uh, but it also started bringing up these old feelings of shame, uh, [00:34:00] about my sexuality that that I felt like I had dealt with a long time ago. And I was, uh, quite angry that I that, you know, that that was happening. Um, discrimination from, you know, from my, uh, experience has also caused strains in relationships, personal relationships. Um, what happened for me is when I was doing my bachelor of theology degree and dealing with all this, Uh, as many of my friends and colleagues were all, um, also doing the same [00:34:30] thing. They were also, um, but their experience was different because, uh, many of them are not gay. Uh, and they were allowed to go through the process. Some were turned away. Um, because the bishops obviously didn't feel they were being called or, um, for whatever reason, but many of them went through the process and were ordained. And, uh uh, and many are ordained today, and and clergy, you know, their vicar, their deacons, uh, working all over the church. So it caused. I sort of [00:35:00] withdrew from them during that time. And a lot of my, uh, friendships suffered because of it. Friendships that I'm trying to now, um, reconcile now that I have, uh, some distance from all of that. And, uh, so I found, actually that the, uh the whole experience of going through, uh, a tribunal hearing, um, was very healing to me. And, uh, and part of that healing was, um, uh, [00:35:30] sort of looking back and and and and thinking, you know how it did affect relationships and what I can do to to bring healing to those relationships between me and people that I withdrew from. What was it like being on the stand and talking about such personal things? Yeah, it's, uh it's funny. I think I had wrote a Facebook post that talked about how and because the news had reported it the night before news broke that it was happening it was all over the news. And, um, and then the [00:36:00] media by the by the by the day by Monday morning, by the time the tribunal started the hearing, uh, it seemed like everybody knew about it, and, uh, I suppose what I felt, um, what was strange to me is that it's kind of like my sex life had become part of the public debate. I felt, you know, now people are gonna look at me, and they now Oh, he's not celibate. So I thought it was, uh It was a strange thing because I hadn't experienced something like that before. Um, so it was just It was people talking [00:36:30] specifically. I mean, my my partner is a very private person, and he's kind of had to, um, to come to terms. I mean, I would never have done this if he hadn't been on board with it. Um, but I don't think he realised it was going to be as big, uh, as big an issue as it is. He comes from, uh, a non-religious background. Uh, he comes from a, uh, a rural community in New Zealand, uh, where it's just sexuality just isn't an issue, and he can't understand what all the fuss is about. So [00:37:00] when we arrived, you know, at the hearing on Monday morning, and you know, there are reporters and, um, video cameras and people taking our photos it was all like we had been immersed into this, um, the squirrel that was very felt very alien to us. And so that was sort of. I mean, that's when your support system really comes in handy, because you have to, um, sort of stay grounded in, you know, not get too upset about what people are writing or what people are saying. Um, and they kind of help you to, [00:37:30] uh, to process all of that if you've got a good support system. And, uh so yeah, I think out of all of that, it was the sort of and in the tribunal I It wasn't that I sort of had to when I was on the witness stand, Um, I didn't feel like I was having to justify myself or, um argue about who I was, or I was basically being offered the opportunity by the tribunal to have a voice and to give language to these things that I felt and to what my experience [00:38:00] was. Um And then it was up to the lawyers, basically to argue, you know, to argue the legalities of it, but I don't feel like I ever had to. Um I never had to make an argument that it was OK to be gay or, you know, there was none of that. And and and from the other side, did anyone question your relationship, or was it more that actually, this is It wasn't necessarily about you, but it was about a wider issue. [00:38:30] This this is about a wider issue. Um, no, Uh, I was only asked one question by, uh, by the defence lawyer, um, which was just about, uh, a question about how I understood the process. Um, I wasn't asked any questions about my relationship. Um, and not even as I've been going through this. Uh uh. No Bishop has ever asked me, uh, in about the sort of, um, state or the, uh [00:39:00] uh about anything about my relationship. They haven't said, you know. Are you in a, uh, in a monogamous relationship? Is it a loving faithful? Um, we never made it to that point. Eventually I would understand. Um, I understand that we would have gotten to that point where a bishop wants to make sure that if you were in a relationship, that it is a loving, nurturing relationship and that it's respectful and that it's in line with what? What the church calls the right ordering of sexual relationships. Um, so, no, there weren't any questions about, [00:39:30] uh, about my relationship with my partner. Um, I suppose I over prepared. I was sort of, uh, expecting. You know, I imagine this very dramatic court case, you know where, uh, you know the defence attorney slams his hand down on to the witness stand and, um, tries to force me to tell the truth and interrogate me. But that's not what happened. It was all very civilised and respectful. And, um um, but I wouldn't have minded. I wouldn't have minded questions about my relationship. You briefly mentioned [00:40:00] the media, and I'm wondering, what has the reaction been from from the media? I think, uh, my opinion is is I think I mean, I don't I For the first couple of days of the hearing, I was reading conservative media and I was reading conservative blogs. But I realised that none of that is gonna be helpful for me because I find it very disconcerting. Um, you know, when you're being when they're at hominem attacks, basically when they're attacking, uh, you as a person and, [00:40:30] uh, and not really wanting to see what the what? The arguments are not wanting to understand anything about it. Um, for the most part, I think the mainstream media, um, who attended the hearing, You know, that whole week, uh, I thought that they, uh, did a, uh, a great job reporting what was happening fairly. I mean, there's always misunderstandings in the way that the media understand the legal arguments. And, um, I think 11 journalist asked me on my way on the last day of, uh of the hearing [00:41:00] on my way out of the courthouse asked me if I would ever reapply to become a priest. And I think I said something like, um, it's possible. What I probably meant to say was, Nothing is impossible. And, uh, and then and that night there was the headline Where gay priest still clings to dream of being a priest. Um uh, which is a little different to what I said. I mean, I wasn't bothered by it, but it's, uh, uh, It just reminds you that you have to be very careful about how you word things, uh, in the public eye and [00:41:30] in the media. And, uh and so I think for the most part, I think they were very fair in the way they reported it. Um, yeah. And I think, uh, and the public have been in their response to it have been Like I said, I've had a lot of support outside of the church as well. Um, from just ordinary New Zealanders who, uh, who think New Zealanders as a whole don't like to see, um, anybody getting shit on by an institution or by a corporation. And I think, uh, [00:42:00] that's part of what it means to be kiwi and learning is that you're always advocating for the little guy or, you know, people that are marginalised. So I think that's kept me very hopeful. You mentioned before we started recording that, um you're also working with a number of, uh, kind of current affairs media programmes on on stories. How do you think? And and these haven't been to E years. And I'm wondering, how do you think, Uh, that will affect you being kind of like on a on [00:42:30] a large current affairs show? Um, I'm not completely comfortable with all of that. I don't, um I don't feel comfortable on television. I don't. And it's, uh and it's just I mean, these are skills I would have to develop anyway. You know, I, I sort of I mean, I'm I'm fine preaching from a pulpit. I'm preaching from a script. Um, and, uh uh, and there's a big difference to that to being, uh, having an interview, uh, on live television. Um, [00:43:00] but, uh, I don't see that I have any other choice. I think, um, I think the public, I think people inside the church, they want to know what the story is behind this. And, uh, my personal stance has always been that I, um I have always wanted this to become about the issue, but I realise that it has such big implications that, um uh, that that's not enough. It's not enough just to have the legal arguments out in the public domain. [00:43:30] People want to put a voice and a face to the story. And if that's what I have to do to bring understanding about I mean, I'm just gonna have to, you know, overcome my fear of interviews. And, um uh, so, yes, I'm not entirely comfortable doing that, but I But I will do it because I think it's it's necessary. What about, uh, the, uh, Rainbow Media, Gay media? How how have they treated you? Um, [00:44:00] the gay media haven't written much about it or reported much about it. I think there was, uh, some gay media in the UK. Um, that came out about it. Um, and I think gay NZ dot com. Uh, somebody told me they posted a story a couple of times about the hearing. Um um, they were sort of, uh, II. I think they were kind of neutral stories. I mean, I think the gay media, uh, wasn't taking one side [00:44:30] or the other. They were just reporting that this is what was happening. So, um, which I think is fair reporting II. I don't, um, expect to have lots of support. And it might be because I'm not, uh, uh aware of how people outside of the church and the gay community are feeling about the church right now. I mean, the church has done some horrible things, uh, to gay people and to minorities. And, um, it doesn't surprise me that they there might be, um, a segment of the gay population [00:45:00] out there that, uh, um they don't have any time for the church or, um, you know, they might be asking, Why the hell are you doing this? You know, these people have been terrible to gay people. Why are you trying to be part of this heterosexual club? I mean, and this is, uh, And that comes from, uh, comments that I've had with with friends of mine who are, um, who are gay and lesbian. So, um, so I haven't seen a lot of gay media on it. Maybe when all is said and done, I might sit down and and see if anybody was saying anything about [00:45:30] it. And, um, but at this point, I, I probably, um probably part of me doesn't want to at this point, but, um, it wouldn't surprise me and it it I don't think it would be hurtful to me. I think if I was doing this five years ago, it might have been hurtful to me. Um, if that was opinions that were coming out of the gay media, Um, but I think I've I've come to understand a lot of why there is, uh, some hostility that that comes out against the church, have things like the recent passing [00:46:00] of the marriage equality bill had any effect On what? On your journey? Well, I found, uh, the marriage equality legislation. I thought was interesting one because I think it showed a definite turning of the tide. Um, in terms of New Zealand, I mean, uh, uh, this was big stuff. And, uh, you know, and and there again, you know, there's some churches that were doing making submissions, saying marriage is between one man and one woman and then you have some, um, you know, some of [00:46:30] the, uh, more liberal or progressive churches, uh, saying well, you know, we believe that, uh, gay people should be allowed to get married. It's part of equality. And what I found especially, probably interesting and maybe, um, inspirational about it was I know that, uh, people like Winston Peters, uh, the MP were calling for a referendum to take place. And, uh and I understand that, uh, Labour Party and, um, other parts of parliament, uh, were not keen on that idea. And [00:47:00] I did some thinking about that afterwards and in relation to my own situation with the Human Rights Review Tribunal because a lot of people have said, um, you know, why don't you wait for the church's internal processes to happen? Um uh, and what I sort of realised from the marriage equality debate is, um, as I was sort of wondering what why they were they were not keen to allow it to go for a referendum. Um, because it might not have passed, but it might [00:47:30] have. But I, I sort of came to believe that you can't always rely on a majority of people to do what is right. Um, and in the interests of minorities And, um, you know, especially sexual minorities. And so I kind of, uh, I'm still internalising that, and trying to, uh, figure out what that means in relation to what I'm doing. I mean, is it ever I mean, because basically, I think of, uh, as homophobia, I think of it as, uh, a kind of slavery. [00:48:00] I think what people are doing when they're homophobic or when they're questioning, you know, asking the question whether you're sinful or not because of your sexuality, is they are imposing a slavery on you. They're they're questioning your humanity. And I don't know if it's ever a good idea for our humanity to be humanity to be up for a public vote. And, um So, as I said, I'm still doing more work around the thinking of that. Um, but I I thought it was, uh, the other thing, too, is I started this, uh, this [00:48:30] case two years ago, and I think marriage equality was a a year it took to get from beginning to end of the process. Um, because the one conservative media that I did read said that, uh um uh, see, we were right. Uh, they they said that gay, uh, that churches weren't gonna be gay. People weren't gonna be forced on them, you know that. We weren't gonna have to marry them. And look, this is for 60 Anglicans, and now, um, so there's a lot of scaremongering going on about that, but I think, um uh, you know it was minimal. And I think that, [00:49:00] uh, marriage equality is is a bit of a remarkable thing. I think it's exciting time to be a gay and lesbian or transgender person in, uh, New Zealand. And, uh, that was one more, um, reason why I thought, uh, it's good to be here. What was the feeling at the end of that tribunal hearing? Um, I was relieved it was over. Uh, but that was, you know, the the last day of of the hearing, Uh, [00:49:30] the one of the bishops public relations. Uh, people came to us and, um, and said, Well, you know, he he's he wants to make a statement, and do you wanna make a statement as well? And maybe we could work it so that, you know, we go down one right after another, and, um and so we were, uh we were sort of in communications with his public relations people because, uh, the thing we don't want to do is during a hearing, is to be commenting to the media and trying to argue about the case in the media. Uh, and [00:50:00] so he came down and made a statement, and then I came down and I made a very brief statement. And, uh and that was the first time I had, uh, use my voice in public like that, uh, to talk about the hearing, and I suppose I I was relieved that that was over. I was relieved that the hearing was over. Um, and I sort of expected, uh, I don't know. I didn't know what to expect. After that, I thought, Well, this could go one of two ways this shit could hit the fan. Um, or it could [00:50:30] be very civil. And people could be having discussions and debates about it without, um, you know, attacking one another. And, uh, and so far it's been calm. I mean, I don't know what will happen when the decision comes. Um, but the decision itself, I don't necessarily know, um, how controversial. Whatever way it goes. Might be I don't There's no activism for dummies, one on one that teaches you how to do this kind of stuff. So, II, I wish there was, and I might have to write the book about [00:51:00] it someday. But But for the most part I felt a feeling of relief. I felt I was proud of the work we had done. I felt we were really advocating for equality on on a different scale and in our own way. So and I was, and I was grateful as well. I thought, um, you know, that I was lucky to live in a country that actually does have a forum for marginalised people to have a voice. And, uh, and and not just to have a voice but to be heard. [00:51:30] Well, speaking of activism 101 looking back. Are there things you would have done differently? Not differently. I. I mean, I I over prepared for everything and, uh, which I think was good. I think I you know, you sort of prepare for the for the worst, but hope for the best. And, uh, so now, in terms of that, I mean, and that's the other, um, wonderful thing about having a great support system. Uh, is that, uh, you're getting [00:52:00] different perspectives and, you know, and we've got a very big support system. We've got, you know, a close circle of friends. And, um, but we constantly were getting feedback. You know, I'd, uh, uh, voice my anxieties About what was going on, or, um, and my support people would feed that back to me, and And, uh, so it's very helpful to have There's nothing I would have done different. Um, now, overall, I can't say that there is anything I would have done different. What about lessons? Learned [00:52:30] to other anything? I think, uh, I think those aren't those aren't all apparent yet. I think that they're still learning That's gonna come out of all this. I think, um, I think what I did learn is that, uh is that when you feel right in your spirit that you were working towards justice and equality. I think, uh, you can be stronger than you think you are. I think, um, So I realised I was a much stronger person [00:53:00] than I thought I was. Um, that's been the main lesson for me. Is is that I sort of underestimate, uh, I guess how how, as gay people, gay and lesbian people, how, uh, thick our skin actually gets, you know, from dealing with homophobia. And, um and I hope that that's listening, you know, on a worldwide scale. And, uh um, but I think we're strong people. I think we, uh we've been through a lot. And, um [00:53:30] uh, and that doesn't ever That doesn't keep us down as a community. And, um, and I see part of what I did is working towards that equality. And even if, um, some gay media don't see that or understand it, I know that it's an important thing to do because I think sometimes the church and an organised religion in general is the last safe haven for bigotry and for homophobia and, uh, being able to claim its religious belief, I think is not acceptable. And I don't think it's acceptable in New Zealand. [00:54:00] Have you thought about the the outcome from the tribunal? Like I mean, what? Whether it goes your way or or the church's way What? What will it mean for you? Yes, I've I've thought about, um What? What? The implications might be One way or another, I think, uh, I mean, there's a number of ways that it can go. Um, uh, I suppose, um I mean, the other part of that is I feel like I've, uh [00:54:30] I've gained a lot of what I started this process for already. I mean, both the bishop and the archbishop and the witness stand admitted that this is a policy of discrimination. They're saying they're exempt because of section 39 of the Human Rights Act. Um, but nevertheless, they are saying it is discrimination and and and that is as the as the domestic law in New Zealand understands discrimination. Um, I mean, it can go a few ways. The outcome give you a mixed outcome. Um, one of those. I mean, [00:55:00] if the tribunal does not find it in my favour, Um I mean, I don't actually know what that would mean for me. I don't know what that means for, um, Anglicanism. Uh, I think if they do find in my favour that that basically says that they are saying yes, discrimination happened. Yes, it was unlawful. And, uh, and then the church and the bishops have to then justify to the New Zealand public why they're above the law. So and I don't know if that puts any more pressure. I mean, there is a process [00:55:30] that is happening in the Anglican Church that's been happening for the past year. Um uh, and as I said, I've been, you know, we've been working on our case for the past two years. So, um, for the past year, uh, a commission has been established in the Anglican church, and I understand their role is to, uh, to gather all the information that the Anglican church has, uh, to hear as many stories coming out of, uh uh, LGBT anglicans to hear, [00:56:00] uh uh, What theology. You know, the conversations about the about theology and Hermans have had to say about sexuality in relation to Scripture and, uh, and tradition and II I have I still I have a lot of hope that that that, uh, process will be successful in some way. I don't think the, uh, the commission is meant to make a recommendation. I think that they are going to present to the church a list of possible ways forward. And then, um, our general Senate has to, [00:56:30] uh, has to vote on on whichever ways that they think are feasible. Um, so I still have a lot of hope for that. I don't think I never thought this the case that I've pursued, I've never thought that that was going to be the answer. Um, and, uh, and like me I think a lot of people like me have, uh, uh, still have hope in the church processes that, um that it will eventually, you know, reverse these kind of, [00:57:00] uh, uh, policies of discrimination. And the other part of that is, um, you know, I don't think it's a it's a church and state argument because we're not asking for that sort of action from the tribunal. But it does ask the question of who is the church in relation to the society in which it exists? Um, should the church also fall under the domestic law or the exempt of the domestic law? Um, I mean, there's a whole There's a hell of a whole lot of things [00:57:30] that, uh, religious people, um, might like to claim that they can do as part of their religious belief things like, uh, the New Zealand law doesn't currently allow, um, like polygamy or, um, animal sacrifice. I mean, those are the extremes. Um, but I suppose all I'm saying is there are things in under the domestic law that people in religious institutions are not allowed to claim as a justification, uh, by their religious belief. And so I think that this, uh, case asks [00:58:00] those kinds of questions. Well, is sexuality also one of those things that falls under the domestic law? Um, that it cannot be claimed, Uh, you know, to be OK just because somebody says it's a religious belief. So it's an interesting place we find ourselves in. And I, um I think the conversation over the next few months will be, um will be very interesting to watch and see how that develops. I, um I don't know what that means, uh, specifically for me as an individual. [00:58:30] Um, but I think it's an interesting conversation for the wider society to have.
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