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Welcome to Queer Radio, Gareth Watkins. Thank you all the way from Wellington. Have you been very busy? Very busy. I've just been, um actually starting on a new documentary looking at, um, the art of drag and drag queens. Um, just interviewed a chap last night who is 21 has been doing drag for three years. Um, and I've got another interview coming up in a couple of days time with a chap that's been doing drag for 40 years. So, um yeah, [00:00:30] yeah, we actually did talk back at on the subject and I was over the Easter weekend, but soon after that and, yeah, it's there are some concepts out there that need to be corrected in terms of some people really don't know what to make of drag for some other people. It's a way of accepting the gay community. What were the concepts that needed to be corrected? I was thinking that that it's anything less than a professional thing, perhaps [00:01:00] at times to do so like I. I spoke to Trixie Lamont, who's a a performer. She's a transgender drag artist at the Beat Night Club here, and she was saying that it's a perfectly respectable way for young people to actually work. So there are especially young people who are aware that they have a transgender identity. And this can be a way of doing genuine work that's entertaining, rewarding, well accepted with some [00:01:30] other people think that Oh, it's just a matter of people putting on a frock and looking silly and dancing down the street during Mardi Gras. It doesn't have to be like that. No, no. Well, the young chap that I was talking to the other night, um, his mother kind of looked at him a bit strangely when when he told her that, you know, he was doing And then, of course, he told her how much money he was getting from each show, and they kind of put paid to all the concerns. It was like, Yeah, go for it. Um, the same chap, um, has been gay bashed three times, [00:02:00] but in in in straight clothing, if it can be straight clothing. But, uh, he he has never been attacked at all when he's been in drag. But it's been when he's just been walking down the street by himself and in normal clothing, which is, um, another fascinating, um, kind of aspect to the whole thing as well. Often one day, at times I was away from the world a day like the vigil. It was actually this year, and we just packed everything up. I was the host for the event here, [00:02:30] and as I'm cycling away, I could swear that somebody just like muttered faet as I as I cycle past them, and it's hard to tell at times whether you're being paranoid. That's the big thing. That's the big thing that I find with, um, interviewing gay guys as well. Is that how much of that homophobia is actually within themselves? And how much is it coming from outside? I have a feeling that a lot of it is, um [00:03:00] it is inside each of us, Um, that we, uh because we don't see images of ourselves, um, acceptable images of ourselves really in kind of mainstream media because we don't see that every day. Um, we feel isolated and alone. Um, and and I think that breeds a wee bit of paranoia. I guess I know that if I can, you know, when I'm walking down down the street, I I can. I can [00:03:30] feel like I'm standing out even though there's nothing kind of outwardly different about me. But I do find that, um, I get these kind of paranoid feelings that, yes, I am being watched and and talked about, Um, I think sometimes that may be true, But often I think it's maybe my own personality, my own kind of self doing that to myself. Um, and one of the really neat things about doing [00:04:00] these recordings is I've found that other people are just like that as well, so that, you know, it's a bit of a relief for me. It's not just me. That's kind of going a bit kind of around the well. You actually work for national radio in New Zealand, the version of Australia's radio national. And how long have you been working with them for? Well, on and off for about nine years now. Fine. So did you do an apprenticeship? No, no, no. I went straight from [00:04:30] school. I was lucky, uh, one of the last intakes of I was in one of the last intakes of, um of technicians that they took on. Um and then they had a kind of a training. Um uh, basically, it was on the job training. I mean, you you had a bit of kind of theory taught you, but But really, it's this is this is the tape machine. This is the computer. This is what we do. And and here's how you do it. Um and so it it kind of started off doing, um, operating, which is pushing all the buttons [00:05:00] and making sure all the technical technical equipment works Fine. Um, doing that live on air for for like, a a talk, talk back kind of show type thing. Um, Then moving into recording interviews, um, music and, um, speech compilation, uh, documentary making, um and that that kind of gave me a really firm footing and and and the kind of technical aspects of radio and sound recording. And so now what you specialise in is spoken word recording. So you've been [00:05:30] you contacted us through email and, uh, offered us copies of C DS of recordings that you've done of people speaking about things like one recent recording was of two men who are radio personalities talking about how they've dealt with the fact that they are gay that they're involved in radio. But they weren't necessarily happy about, um, speaking out as gay men. Yes. Uh, I, I think One of I have a feeling it's a generational thing. Now, these two guys were, [00:06:00] um well, are, um, in their fifties, that kind of area. Anything around the gay issue, uh, kind of thing is is not really talked about in this country for that age group. I don't think we had law reform here in 85 86. Um, prior to that, it was illegal. Um, so when when these guys were growing up, it just wasn't an option. You you just were not gay. [00:06:30] Um, as in the sense of the word that it is now, um And so when they were growing up and when they were at their first jobs in broadcasting, I mean, both of them have been in broadcasting for 30 or 40 years. Um, it just wasn't mentioned. Um, and so I guess you can really understand why they they they didn't push that, um, even when they had the chance of maybe, um, kind of de stigmatising it, uh, they [00:07:00] just felt well, they just didn't feel the need to to talk about it. Um, one man says, uh, when law reform came through even that it seemed like, Well, now that we've got this, let's not make too much of a fuss about it because people think that we've got a special right rather than just something we should have always had. Uh, I, I don't know what it's like over there in Brisbane, but in in this country, in New Zealand at the moment, Um, there's, I think, quite a strong feeling of [00:07:30] wanting to assimilate with mainstream culture. Um, you find I? I found a lot of, um, gay men just not wanting to be out there. They just want to live happily in the suburbs and do normal what you would say. Heterosexual things like buy a house, um, settle down and have a nice life. Thank you very much. I have a feeling that some [00:08:00] of that kind of, um activism, um, that that was so apparent, especially around law reform. And prior to that, that that kind of activism activist spirit has has gone a wee bit, Um, and I'm not sure if that's good or bad. Uh, but it does seem to be kind of dribbling away somewhere. Hm? Yeah, There's not an increasing number of people necessarily attending political events here at the Pride Festival. It gets marginally bigger [00:08:30] each year, but it's still It's not in proportion to the number of people that there are who must be exclusively homosexual in Brisbane. So there are a lot of people very keen to just sit back and let one or two people especially do lots of work and then think, Oh, well, it's good and we get some benefit. But if those couple of people really didn't take some risks, then there would be no benefits coming through. I have a feeling that maybe that that's always been the case, Um, that here I am [00:09:00] contradicting myself because, um, here II I talked to a number of of guys that, um, younger guys that say, Oh, yes, uh, look at the good old days when everyone was active and and everyone was proactive about, you know, pushing homosexuality forward and saying Yes, it's OK, Um, we're talking about like in the law reform days of, you know, 85 86. Um, but then speaking to guys that are around about 30 or 40 who were [00:09:30] active around that time. They were saying that Well, they told me that that not everyone was like that, that that there are large numbers of gay people that just stayed inside and didn't want to know were quite happy not to, um, you know, kind of be out there, be pushing for it in America, there's an excellent programme called Chasing the Rainbow and, uh, this particular programme about youth in America and how, um, some [00:10:00] youth in, I think Massachusetts. They lobbied their local state to put through a law that would protect students against discrimination on all basis like including, like race, religion, like gender and sexual orientation. And the students themselves, like the youth, had to actually lobby to do this because they were getting no support from the older members of the community, the gay and lesbian community. But they said what worried them the most was that there were lots of gay and lesbian students [00:10:30] who said to them, Look, it's just part of life. You have to accept that you're going to get harassed. That happens at school, you know, you survive it, you get on with your life. But unfortunately, like some people aren't going to survive the harassment. And I think this is why there needs to be some visibility. What's the school system like in Brisbane for that? In that respect, there is no legal protection. There would be a recommendation for people to adopt, um, [00:11:00] like appropriate courses that support students but still, like family plan in Queensland. At the moment, they've got a couple of workshops that they've organised. The second one will be starting shortly, encouraging teachers and principals and such educators to come and get a bigger understanding about what happens as far as discrimination goes, especially homophobia within a school, and how to act to prevent it from being a problem in the first place. But [00:11:30] it's not compulsory, and I think it will take quite some time before many schools decide to pick up on that sort. Of course, as I was saying that the, um, the school that I used to go to where I interviewed the principal just yesterday, he was saying that it's a case of they actually have human relationships, education as a subject. So what he does during religious instruction is he'll mention some supportive things about relationships, but he doesn't mention same sex relationships. And [00:12:00] it's, uh, it's a shame, because you need to be aware more often that there really is quite likely to be students in your class who are gay, and it may take them a few years to realise it. So this is the support has to come before the awareness. I think that's why yeah, the the the visibility, um, in school, but also in in the media, um is so important to not only just see the stereotypical [00:12:30] kind of campy images or the the sitcoms that are so prevalent, you know, from the US with with gay characters on them. But just to see normal gay people talking about normal gay things, Um um and I mean I. I do think that that the gay lifestyle has difficulties associated with it that don't crop up in just straight relationships, [00:13:00] um, or for for straight individuals. And I think those have to be talked about, and they have to be seen in public to educate to validify, I guess. I. I find that one of the main reasons why I'm doing these sound documentaries is that at the end of it, I find I feel a bit more valid [00:13:30] as a person. Um, and I know that. I suppose this is a selfish thing on my part that I am doing stuff to make me feel better. Um, hopefully at the end of the day, it's making other people feel better because they can relate to some of the things that some of the guys are saying. Um, it's all about being able to see yourself or hear yourself back and say, Actually, it's not just me. There are other people like [00:14:00] me, um, feeling the same, feeling the same things, going through the same experiences, Um, and willing to share that, I find that there aren't many places where gay guys can just share their thoughts about things. Um, in a safe way. Uh, I mean, you don't do that in in on on the gay scene. I mean, you're going up to, you know, to a pick up joint to pick someone up. It's not about [00:14:30] kind of having a deep and meaningful conversation. Um, and I don't think there are many places where guys can just talk. Um, so that's one of the neat things about the the sound documentaries is that, um, with radio, uh, you are talking on a 1 to 1 basis even though you're broadcasting tapes 10 20,000 people or, you know, 100,000 people. [00:15:00] You're being very intimate on the other end where it's just one listener, uh, and a voice coming through a speaker. And so I think you can be very intimate, and you can talk about things that that you don't often get a chance to talk about. Who do you think should be represented in these styles of documentation that you're doing? Who do I think should be? Because the temptation might be to go for people who are prominent, for example, I like ordinary [00:15:30] people, and I say ordinary people in quotation marks, because I mean, everyone is completely extraordinary, and they will have different, um, things that they bring to life. And everyone's story is different. Um, I think I have got the most amazing, um, stories out of people that you just you know, that that they don't have, um, the high high profile jobs that you know that [00:16:00] aren't, um maybe the the greatest speakers, um or aren't out there all the time. Um, to me, that's where the most exciting stories lie. It's not about facts and figures, the the documentaries that I'm doing. It's not about facts and figures. It's about personal experiences and trying to get a feeling for for a subject. Um, it's Yeah, it's It's quite an organic way of programme making, I guess, and that [00:16:30] I do the interviews and they're quite prolonged interviews. I mean, that that they would go on for about an hour, Um, each interview. And from that, um, the kind of the the shape of the documentary which turn turns into about a half hour piece, um, kind of shapes from that. Um so it's quite organic. Yeah. You're saying that in, say, for national radio in New Zealand, there's really no [00:17:00] programming that's geared towards gay men and lesbians because they consider like niche programming as a problem, because everyone will want a piece of the pie. But how are gay voices then being represented in mainstream media in New Zealand? In radio uh, there are no weekly, um, programmes at all. Um, there is no news. Uh, sorry, I. I have [00:17:30] to qualify that public radio and for for national radio, where I work. If there are no gay weekly programmes, there are weekly programmes on community access stations. Um, which target? Very small areas. Like there will be an access station in Wellington, one in Auckland, one in Christchurch. Um and they have their own audiences. Um, and they generally have, like, an hour or two a week. Um, which is fantastic. [00:18:00] Uh, so at least there is some gate content going on there. Um, but as a national broadcaster, national radio doesn't do anything like that. Um, there is no news agency, um, in the in the radio area, putting out gay news. Uh, we do have a weekly, um, national gay newspaper that comes out and also a month, a monthly one as well. And in TV, we've [00:18:30] got, um a half hour, um, show called Queer Nation, which is great. Um, that happens every week. Um, although it gets broadcast something like about 11. 30 at night on, um, on a Friday night. So, um, it's it's fantastic that they're making it. It's It's the programme is that you have to actually question why you know why they're putting it on so late. Especially when, um, it's basically general information education content, especially if the the [00:19:00] community television is something like this 31 here where you've got, like, the butchers show on several times during the day time. Unfortunately, television isn't a big thing in New Zealand. We have, um, two state channels and, um, a commercial channel as well. Um, the two state channels are completely driven by money. Um, nothing at all. Like, um, SPS over in Australia. They are basically commercially driven. And and so, if you can't [00:19:30] pull the ratings or if you can't pull the audience, then basically you don't get on well here like there's a a programme presented by drag tomorrow tonight, here and like that actually pulls something like 20% of the viewing audience when it's on air on a Tuesday night and then repeat it on a Saturday. So it shows that that style of programme can perform really well. What kind of content on the programme? Uh, it's more like, um, tele shopping or infomercial. But [00:20:00] it it does have some community support as well. And Tamara is actually, uh, nominating for Lord mayor in the upcoming state elections or sorry, Brisbane City Council elections, which would be quite good because, uh, like, she's a A very, uh, intelligent, together strong person. So I don't know if she'll become Lord Mayor, but she'll give the media a shake. And people have taken this seriously that no one's making fun of her. Yeah, we've [00:20:30] actually got two, transsexual me in New Zealand, one in the, which is just about half an hour drive from Wellington and also one down south. And it is just the most wonderful thing to see them, um, on TV campaigning and just being out there not being out there as a transsexual mayor but as, um, as a very intelligent or as as two very intelligent mayors, um, it [00:21:00] it's just wonderful to see. And and it's a secondary plus that they are transsexual and are achieving achieving great things and and also are looking out for, you know, the, um, gay has been transgender by communities II. I just think it's such a a valuable thing to do. Um, not only for future generations, but for for the interviewer, for for me, um, and for you as well. Um, or [00:21:30] whoever is doing it, um, that you open yourself up to new ideas, new ways of thinking about things I think you become. Well, I hope we become less judgmental once we actually sit down and start talking to people about things, Um, and less dismissive of of of situations. Um, I know that's what's happened with me, I think II, I think I, um, become a lot [00:22:00] more open to all different types of people. And I think that's a great thing. Well, you do have a website that people can access to get samples of the work that you've done and a list of the work you've done as well. I haven't actually looked at the site. This is stated on your CD. So how do people actually find that website? Sure. The, um, website address is HTTP Colon. Backslash backslash WWW dot free speech. All one word [00:22:30] dot org back slash Gareth. Um, that site contains most of the documentaries, Um, in a real audio format, so you can actually hear them in their entirety. Um, live on the internet at any time. Um, you can also download them and listen to them. They're all freely available for, uh, educational use or for broadcast. Uh, basically the sites there to get the sound out to as many people as possible [00:23:00] and to enable people just to maybe hear themselves, I guess. Ok, well, look after yourself. Thanks a lot. Thank you. See you. Bye.
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