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Gareth. Uh, last year in 2016, there was, uh, a work of yours that was premiered called During these days, which was, um, as part of the commemorations of the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform in New Zealand. And you said to me at that time when, uh, just before the premier that this was the first overtly gay political work that you had done. Can you tell me about that? Right. And I absolutely, I did. And, um, I I It's it's funny thinking about that [00:00:30] now because it was the first time anyone had asked me to write a piece of music that that spoke to, uh, a political gay theme. Um, and I guess you know, my music tends not to be about specifically anything. It's about the music, and it's always interesting being asked specifically to do something that that says to the audience what it is. Um, especially something. So, [00:01:00] um heated and topical, as it was at the time, because it was the anniversary and and way back dredging up my memories of being in my I guess, early twenties. Um, late teens? No, I was in my late teens and and sort of trying to channel that into a piece of music and I. I tend I tend not to do that. I [00:01:30] tend to let the you know, the notes on the piano, tell me how to write the music. So that was a really interesting one. And I guess I I looked to the text that I had, um I'd asked the the glamour phones, the the wonderful choir that sung it, um, to come up with a text for me. Uh, I was quite busy at the time, and I knew that I wouldn't have time to to to research it, [00:02:00] um, and they came up with two fabulous poems. Uh, and they really the two of them are are are are quite, um, different. There were two poems that we ended up with. Um, one was, uh, simply a a poem. That was, um, a list of all of the names that gay men and women had been called, Um, either supportively from the community, [00:02:30] uh, or cultural or derogatory, some hugely derogatory. And and it was a a fascinating exercise for me to translate that into a coral piece. And, uh, you know, there was there were things from the Pacific island community like, um and but they were It's also bum. [00:03:00] Yeah, And And it was really interesting to to to work with this poem, particularly collaboratively, because I did want to I did want the choir to have a say in how this would work and rehearsal. It turned out that, um, so many people wanted because I I'd assigned one word. And I think there are about 25 or something like that. Terms. And I just set up this texture [00:03:30] that the choir was just sort of sort of murmuring, murmuring. You can't really hear what they're saying, But then a soloist just speaks out gay, and everyone wanted bum fucker. I think I told you this the last time you interviewed me, actually, because I'd only just had that rehearsal, and it was like everyone wanted to say, Bum fucker. Well, I don't blame them. I would want to say it too, but, um, it was a It [00:04:00] was a really interesting process of of working with the choir and and the other the other text. Um, which was I is the poem that's called during these days. Um I. I had a much more lyrical romantic, uh, interpretation of that. So I kind of slammed them up against each other and just just, you know, I I What happened was worked. It [00:04:30] was wonderful. Did these texts resonate for you? Um, uh, personally, or were you more of a kind of an outsider looking at these texts in a kind of an objective kind of way? I think this this sort of goes way into how I interpret any text. Um, when I'm trying to set it to music and my struggle, maybe it's not a struggle, [00:05:00] but it's a it's two. It's two brains. It's my, um, emotional brain, my personal history brain and my composer brain. And my composer brain always goes straight to How is that going to sit? Um, as far as the scan of the music goes, as far as the inherent rhythm that the poet has already [00:05:30] or lyricist has already put into those words that I need to pay attention to, um and that for me, that always comes first. Because IIII I do adore setting words to music. II I, you know, working with Paul Jen for so many projects um uh, it's it's one of my favourite things to do. Uh, and I I've I've said a lot [00:06:00] of text to music. Um, but the first thing is always the composer brain comes in and says, OK, you got to figure out what that rhythm that that poet is trying to tell you. Um and then the other level is, what do I think of it? And often I have to remind myself, you know, two weeks into the process going Hey, you actually haven't read this as a poem. You've [00:06:30] just been like da da da da da da da da da da da You're just trying to find these rhythms and just just read it. And what does this say to you? So I think it was exactly the same with this process. You know, I. I had to sit back and go, OK, think about these words. Think about these words. And that's where the, um well, in this particular piece, that's where the darker images came from, where [00:07:00] I really thought, you know, it's a celebration, but you can't ignore the bad shit. You know, you cannot ignore that. It has to be part of this thing. So there are a lot of bits that I loved it when we performed it at Parliament as well, because the the concert in at Saint Andrews was, um, you know, was one thing but so good at Parliament. There's all these sort of spooky [00:07:30] whisperings, sort of sound like a black mess. At times. It's like, Oh, it's the Great Hall at Parliament. Lovely. So you were saying earlier that you would have been a teenager during law reform in the mid eighties? Um, what was your experience of that time? I had this overlap of, uh, finally being free of high school. Even though I went to a fabulous high school, I was [00:08:00] still slightly close, Um, when I went to university, which would have been about 86. And so there was this transition for me that coincided with the transition of New Zealand society into dealing with homosexuality, um, politically, in in their face and just dealing with it. [00:08:30] And so it was very gentle for me. There was a real sort of lovely cross fade. Um, and before I knew it, um, you know, things were legal and I was already thinking I I have no idea what it would have been like to for it not to be legal, because I was 18 and I had a lot of friends who were a generation older than me. [00:09:00] Um, you know, and just, you know, seeing seeing on the news recently that people that got men have been pardoned for having sex. I mean, I laughed when that news bulletin came on, but it's I guess it's it's not funny at all. It's horrendous. But I just laughed because it's unthinkable that that that would happen in this country. But [00:09:30] a lot of things, you know, it it it doesn't take a lot of decades to to change, to change the world. So did you ever feel, um, as a teenager that that kind of sense that, uh, the the criminality did Did you ever think that you were illegal? No, Absolutely not. II, I I don't even think I don't even think I knew it was illegal when [00:10:00] I was a teenager. I, I would say my really conscious, uh, gay years were about 13, 14, 15, 16. And then that was the th Those years were the ones where I was figuring out, OK, this is not what everyone does. And I am a little bit different in many [00:10:30] ways, and I No, I don't even think I would have known it was illegal. But also at the time, you know, for me, it was it was about dreamy things like, um, hairstyles and music choice and things like that. It it it It wasn't about sex ever for me as a teenager. [00:11:00] And were you accepted as a gay teenager, then I've always felt that, um, that I've always been out and that there was this brief period, Um, when I was about 11 or 12, 11 and 12, that just sucked the life out of me as far as who I thought [00:11:30] I was. And, you know, when I was, um, when I was seven, my dad worked at the Mercury Theatre. He was an actor at the Mercury Theatre, and he brought home all of these costumes one day. And this is the blue fairy dress. Oh, I love the blue fairy dress. Yeah, and I used to wear it when I was about six or seven, and that was no problem [00:12:00] at home. It was no problem. whatsoever at home and, um, primary school from all the way up, uh, up to I guess. What? Uh, 11 years old, there was never any issue, and then I went to intermediate school. Um, I hope these things don't exist anymore, but it's this awful thing of two years in a school where [00:12:30] you suddenly don't know anyone. And, well, I don't know if it's part of the part of the technique of designing an intermediate school, but the bullying was unbelievable for me. It was terrible. Um, so I had two years of I've suddenly being called a faggot. I had no idea what they were talking about. Um [00:13:00] I thought I thought Bjorn from eba was pretty dishy. And I look at photos now and I go. Gareth, Gareth! Gareth. What were you thinking? But I did I. I thought he was OK, but they call me Puff at intermediate school, not at primary school and not at high school. Because, you know, we were all adults by then. The two [00:13:30] years of intermediate school they got me. And now I think back and I How the fuck did they know? I didn't even know I didn't know what any of that meant. I didn't know what any of that meant. But two years of bullying at that age is enough to need years of therapy, darling. And I [00:14:00] think that, you know, there's a slow sort of cross fade back into normality at the age of 20. Um oh, you lost the plot now? Well, in those intermediate years, I mean, when you didn't know what proof was when you didn't know what they were kind of abusing or bullying you for what was going through your head. Well, I guess I was aware of the fact that I was different. [00:14:30] And I guess I was aware of the fact that I liked my differentness because I didn't like them because they were the, you know, the the the the horrible, horrible boys who were just saying things I didn't relate to smelling like I didn't relate to, Um, just my first [00:15:00] day, You know, actually, if you go back to primary school and, um, my mother could probably tell you more about this, but, um, first day of primary school, when I was five, I lined up in the girls line because I had no interest in lining up in the boys line because they were horrible and they smelt their head and they played rugby. And I I don't play rugby. [00:15:30] Um, but it it it's that that whole Yeah. Was it just the pupils, or was it also the teachers or structures In terms of, like, the intermediate bullying in primary school? I was allowed to be exactly who I wanted to be always, Um, intermediate was just this, you know, it was this barrage [00:16:00] of rules that, uh and you know, I. I have to say that, you know, this is I guess it was 1979 and 1980. Um, and we all sang the Lord's Prayer at assembly, you know, and they probably were some non Christians in the crowd. Me, um it it's [00:16:30] you know, when I when I hear kids who are at that age just tossing the word go around like they have no idea what it means and in a really negative way or calling a boy. Oh, you're a girl. So those [00:17:00] two years, how did that time affect you? So for me, um, these two years of intermediate school was just complete dip in self belief because I was a gorgeous kid and I had no problem wearing a dress. And I just did what I wanted to do. [00:17:30] And I was, But also, you know, I. I remember liking spanners and and I. I had a a reel to reel tape recorder that my dad had brought home from the Mercury Theatre. And I took her to bets, and I was really boy, and I was really girls, and it was all good. And I all of a sudden had this sort of brick thrown in my head. [00:18:00] Um, when I went to intermediate school, I don't know what it is about this, but everything was horrible for two years, and it took well, it took It took eight years to recover, and by the time I was just recovering was probably around my first or second year of university at Auckland [00:18:30] University. And then I just sort of think that, you know, Then I had to go. All right, I'm gay. Right? OK, now I'll be a gay grown up, please. And that's what I did. And you were saying earlier that when you went to university, you were slightly close and I'm just wondering what does slightly close mean? I think it's the It's the tail end of [00:19:00] a a dodo. It's this little bit here. There was just a little bit hanging over from I'm still a bad person and this is not right. And then Oh, my goodness, I've just met a gay person at Auckland University and he's also a composer, and he's a little bit cute and oh, fuck it. He's not interested in me. And [00:19:30] all of a sudden there was no backlash. There was no response. It was like, Oh, OK, well, right, let's get the fuck on with life. But this wasn't a time. So we're talking about the late eighties. This is 86. Yes. So I in wider society you've got, um, you know, really, uh, a lot [00:20:00] of kind of, uh, GB I political going on, you've got things that are rainbow communities are way more prominent, like the homosexual law reform and the activism have any impact on your life. At that time, I, uh I had a huge amount of things happen to me at the age of about 18. Um, I had just graduated from [00:20:30] a wonderful high school metro, Um, which was the alternative college? That pretty much let you do anything you want. And I was lucky enough to have Don McGlashen turn up as my high school music teacher. Um, so a lot was going on musically and at the same time, Um, III I was going What? I could actually [00:21:00] stop being embarrassed and ashamed about this thing that I like boys, and that was happening at the same time. And then university was happening at the same time, and it was like, Bam, bam, bam, bam! And it was all about music. It was all about music. And after things settled down a little bit at university, I suddenly thought, [00:21:30] OK, well, we can start thinking about this boy thing again. Um And then I went to the States to do my master's degree in Rochester, New York, and I. I was in this tiny little, um, community of of Drag in [00:22:00] upstate New York, in Rochester, New York. Um, we were just all about the show, and we were about putting on a show. You know, there were 200 people that turn up every single Sunday to see the show and it's It was so important and it was so important. And it was it was really important for that community because, you know, I mean I. I hate to say it, but Rochester, New [00:22:30] York, was a bit of a scary city. Um, there's no way you would walk down the street in downtown Rochester looking a little bit gay or even forbid hand in hand with your boyfriend. I mean, you'd be shot. Um, and it's it's cities like that in the States where you find the best drag shows because you have to have that. [00:23:00] You have to have that. Otherwise, um, where do you go? You know, So we were I was a drag queen in in in that show for, um for three years. So was that the first time you had done drag? Well, no. Um, I suppose the first time I did drag was putting on the fairy dress that my dad brought home [00:23:30] from the Mercury Theatre at the age of eight. But I, I, um I remember turning up in Rochester and people saying, You know what? This is amazing drag show here. I thought upstate New York, there's probably a whole lot of football players and dresses and I did go there and it was one of the best drag shows I've ever seen in my life. And I thought, Well, I've never done drag before at [00:24:00] how hard can it be? You know, I'm I'm used to being on stage, put on a dress and do it. And it was absolute nightmare. It was. The dress I bought from the $2 shop was was too tight. I couldn't remember the words. The lights were in my eyes and I got off stage and I thought, This is This is terrible. What am I [00:24:30] going to do? And I thought, Well, I'm going to have to figure out how to do it properly, So that's what I did. I spent the next week really figuring out how to do this, and I didn't let myself off the hook. I knew that nervousness is not going to be an issue because I've done this before. And next week I fucking nailed it. Yeah, and then I got And then [00:25:00] and then, you know, in a small town in America, it's very easy to get a following. I was like famous in my own town. So why drag again? I? I have to go back to little six year old seven year old Gareth, who likes to wear dresses. I don't know why you like to do that. Um uh the mid late [00:25:30] teens Gareth, who was absolutely gob smacked by boy George, When do you really want to hurt me? Came out. I was like, Oh, what's that? Who's that? What is that? That is that's something that I've never had a word for or a name for. [00:26:00] And there it is. And now it's just now it's boy George and, you know, I, I I've I've, um I've been to a gig of his in in Melbourne and stood 6 ft away from him and thought, I do want to burst up to you and say you have no idea what you did for me, but I think I'd just leave you alone. Might be Yeah, probably. Your security guards might punch me in the face, but, um [00:26:30] and then he did this beautiful DJ set and was wearing makeup and a beautiful diamante hat and still the the drag icon that I knew, but not drag. He was he had a goatee and still wearing eye makeup. And just this just this blend of what could be what can be [00:27:00] what anyone can be and a very just still so inspiring. So So where did lift your your drag persona come from? Well, she just Lilith appeared from nowhere. Um, I guess Lilith really appeared when I was studying in the States, and it was so much about, um, [00:27:30] you know, my friends at Eastman in New York saying, Go, go on. There's a show, you know? Go and have a look. Just go. And and I was like, Oh, for God's sake, I'm I'm from New Zealand. I'm doing a masters in composition. I'm gonna be the worst in the class. I'm from the bottom of the world and slowly but surely it occurred to me by seeing everyone else in the class. It was like, Yeah, actually, I'm kind of the top of the [00:28:00] class, right, Time to go to the drag show, and I did, and I thought, Oh, well, And it was just when, uh, Priscilla queen of the desert came out and they all thought I was Australian, so I thought I'd just milk that it's like, No, I'm from New Zealand. It's Oh, no, Never mind. I'm from Australia, and it just was it was just good timing, but that was absolutely a a stage [00:28:30] persona that I thought, Well, I can do this. This is what I do. I perform on stage. Why not do this as well? So you were back with Lilith in New Zealand in the early nineties? Yeah, after studying in the States, Uh, yeah, I. I came back to New Zealand and I felt that I'd had such fun, Uh, three years in the States doing a a drag [00:29:00] show, which was, you know, there were people who you know there was. You know, every Sunday night we did a drag show and there were 200 people there. Um, and they were fans, you know, and it's it was kind of funny, but it was It was so it was so addictive. Um, and I really I really took it seriously when I was, and I really learned how to do makeup and hair [00:29:30] and how to make outfits and, um, on, you know, $2.50. And then when I got back to new Zealand. Uh, it was ban back to being an adult. Um, because professional life had just started for me at the same time. And so drag was potentially something that I would have to drop, [00:30:00] but the that didn't happen because I just couldn't drop it. It was so much. It had become so much a part of my life in that three years that I was in the States. You know, I spent three years developing everything I I did through a master's degree in composition, which was huge, huge, but also exactly the same time. [00:30:30] I spent three years developing a drag queen, which is a fairly unusual thing for most Masters composition students to say, I suppose, Well, and I think New Zealand hadn't seen this before. They hadn't seen a serious classical composer and a drag artist in the same in the same body. Well, I, I think that's what [00:31:00] I slowly over, I guess, a period of a year and a half two years. Um, I started to see that there there was no there was no press. And you see, the thing is, I I'm laughing as I'm saying this, but I find that hysterically funny. I do find this hysterically funny. And and this is so much a part [00:31:30] of my, um, my personality that is obviously a part of my drag personality. It's a part of my composer personality. It's a part of my neither of those personalities. They're all the same thing. And III I see drama and humour. I see humour in sadness. I see sadness in humour, and I this is this is nothing new. Shakespeare did [00:32:00] this quite a lot and I don't understand the initial. Um, it wasn't a backlash. I got a little bit of a maybe an eyelash. Uh, when I first came back that you you can't be doing these things at the same time. Gareth dear, I think you probably want to just, you know, just [00:32:30] do the composition thing. Just maybe don't try and mix it up with the drag thing. And I was like, You know what? Fuck it. No, no, absolutely. No. They are the same thing. Um, even though at that point I hadn't still figured out how to present them in a in a medium that made it make sense because I was still sort of doing lip syncing, but then wanted [00:33:00] to combine it with, uh, you know, orchestra or or or or drumming or percussion ensemble or all of these things. And I took me a long time to figure that out. And then I think about the devotion Festival say, was it 1997 where you were with the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra on one night, And then the next night you were doing drum drag in the same venue? Yeah, [00:33:30] kind of II. I have to look back on on that week as one of the most surreal weeks of my life. Um, commissioned to write the orchestral piece to, um, celebrate the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra's 50th birthday. Um, and to be one of the percussionists in that piece. And I deliberately made the percussionists the heroes [00:34:00] of the piece. Of course. Uh and then 24 hours later, um, the Devotion gay and lesbian dance party was in the same in the Wellington town hall. Same venue and I. I did this. I did this, um, dance lip sync percussion number with [00:34:30] a team of I don't know about 15 dancers rising up out of the floor on the Wellington town hall stage lift, which is usually only used to to get the bloody Steinway into the into the theatre. But I used it to get my ass out of the basement. Yeah, so that was That was an interesting week of my life. [00:35:00] You were saying about the 50th anniversary of the symphony orchestra. Next year, 2018 is your 50th birthday, and I'm wondering, what does that mean for you? Mhm. Fuck A lot more landscaping work, darling. It's a It's a tricky one. II. I don't [00:35:30] have anything profound to say. You'll get there, bitch. Just put that Gareth Watkins you'll get there, you bitch! And you're still look 10 years younger than me, for fuck's sake. We just do that one more time and I won't talk over it. Um, I can do that any time you like. Gareth, welcome you. [00:36:00] Um Now I've spilled a drink, for fuck's sake. Right. This is this is this is supposed to be getting too serious. Ok, um, mentioning the 50th anniversary of the NZO kind of leads me on to my final question, I guess, is that next year 2018 is going to be your 50th birthday. [00:36:30] And I'm wondering I mean, does that hold any significance for you, or what does that mean for you? Uh, well, for a start, I'm I'm planning a huge party, and I think I'm just gonna tour the world and take my party everywhere. I. I feel like I guess I feel like I'm an old all of a sudden and and I should I should be profound [00:37:00] about about my concepts. But truth be told, I'm not I I'm I'm still 22. I'm still I'm still figuring it out. And I, I like the fact that that every single project I'm given is just another another step. Um, no, I'm still 25. [00:37:30] 22 18, 17, 16, 12.
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