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Welcome to focus on politics. It's a practise with no scientific basis, a treatment claiming to cure people of their sexuality but instead doing harm. Paul Stevens has experienced it firsthand. So [00:00:30] when I was 15 and I realised that I was gay, I was in church at the time, and I reached out to leaders in my church, and I was sent to a counsellor who told me that I could change my sexuality, that I didn't have to be gay. It wasn't until later in life, Paul Stevens realised the damage conversion therapy had caused. It holds you back. It means that you you don't start accepting who you are when you need to. When you're a young person and you're developing your sense of identity. If you have people [00:01:00] who are who are telling you that you need to change something which is actually fundamental about who you are, it does. It does do lasting damage, and for young people it can cause mental health issues. It can cause post traumatic stress disorder, and it's something that you have to work through. And as an adult, it is something that I've had to work through in terms of my sexuality. Conversion therapy is illegal in some parts of the world, but not New Zealand. Justice Minister Chris Fao said. It's time for change. I'm really happy today [00:01:30] to say that the government has introduced legislation to protect people from practises that seek to convert a person's sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression. The legislation creates two new criminal offences. The first is performing conversion practises on a child or young person aged under 18 or on someone with impaired decision making capacity. It carries a prison sentence of up to three years. The second, more serious offence is conducting [00:02:00] conversion practises on anyone irrespective of age and causing serious harm. Such an offence would be subject to up to five years imprisonment. The bill also creates a pathway for civil redress. This bill will not outlaw a person's right to hold a personal beliefs about sexual orientation or gender identity. It will not stop parents having conversations with their Children or pastors with parishioners who may be wrestling with their sexuality or gender identity, and it will [00:02:30] not stop parents or religious leaders from offering support. But the bill does draw a line between supporting someone and going beyond that to intentionally change their sexual orientation or gender identity. Those who have long advocated for a ban celebrated the bill but were quick to point out parts of the legislation they believe need improving. Auckland Pride executive director Max Tweedy told morning report S Corin Dann what he would like to see changed the first is around that kind of [00:03:00] serious harm threshold for people that are over the age of 18. We see that because you know, just because someone is over the age of 18 or not a minor doesn't mean that this kind of severe negative impacts of conversion therapy won't be felt on them. And I think you know, because conversion therapy doesn't work in every case and causes harm in every case, we're interested. Why, there's, I guess, such a high threshold, um, defined under the legislation and then such a high threshold for prosecution under the act as well. Yeah, the definitions could be interesting with, as this goes through [00:03:30] the political process, because I've seen some criticism from religious groups on the right, fearful that the definition of conversion therapy and what it actually is could lead to parents getting caught up with this. What is your view on that? I mean, I think you know, when we're actually looking at the people that will be criminalised by this legislation. I think, you know, we're talking about the really quite extreme cases, the people, you know, like David and Nelson who are advertising this, you know, quite proudly. Whereas I think you know, when it comes to families, [00:04:00] I think that's where the civil redress scheme comes in. And I mean, we don't want to see kind of families, you know, criminalised because of this, But we do want it to be a really strong deterrent and for there to be ways for survivors to, you know, access redress from the scheme, but also for it to actually stop. So I don't think the intention is that we're going to parents to jail through this legislation. But it will send a strong message for parents to stop doing this, that it is wrong and you are harming your child, but also that there's redress in that scheme. [00:04:30] And I think that's another area as well in terms of the way that this bill survivors that we think could be improved. Z contacted a number of people who run conversion practises to ask what they think about the proposed ban. They declined to speak on record and took offence at the suggestion they would be affected despite openly advertising conversion practises. Now the government is banning conversion practises that try to change someone's sexual orientation or their gender identity. The new bill has been introduced to parliament today. Chris Fao [00:05:00] is responsible minister. Hello, good afternoon. As is standard practise, the minister appeared on various media outlets to answer questions about the legislation. But it was this interview with Newstalk ZB here, the duple Allen that Chris Faro showed his confusion when trying to explain the piece of legislation, for example, saying to a child who may be pre pre and saying, I want to go on a hormone blockers, saying No, you can't that's cool with you No, it's not that so [00:05:30] So let me go back to what you first asked, um, about, um, ministers, um, they are supporting people day in, day out parents are supporting their Children who do have gender issues that regardless of whether it's a priest, a parent or the rugby coach down the road. The fundamental part of this bill is that you can't intend to change someone else's sexual orientation. But hold on. If it's a parent saying to a 12 year old now, you can't go on the hormone blockers because you're 12, you're not OK with this. [00:06:00] So what it's about is there are two here. Um, Heather, there is a protection, uh, for people to understand who they are and to be there who they are, and express that so and also for the likes of the priest that you talk about to be able to continue to express their religious belief or principle. I believe, um, because of what we've seen through the engagement that parents are having good open discussions and healthy discussions with their with their Children if they have sexual orientation issues or gender issue gender [00:06:30] identity issues. What we don't want, uh, is in some of those situations, um, uh, either a priest or a parent or again, the rugby coach down the road, forcing their opinion or around, uh, sexual orientation and an attempt to change somebody else's. I'm not asking you that. I'm just saying as a parent or a guardian right. You're in charge of a 12 year old who cannot make proper decisions because they're not an adult. Are you telling you just answered before when I asked you if it was OK for the parent to say no [00:07:00] to the hormone blockers, said no. Then I stopped to make sure that we were on the same wave. Your position on the interview continued like this for a few more minutes and left many listeners more confused than they were to begin with. It's deja vu for the minister, who was widely criticised last month for not properly understanding his hate speech legislation and confusing the public debate when asked about it by journalists. [00:07:30] But Chris FAO is defending his performance and says he has informed the public debate. How do you feel that you've communicated this piece of legislation and do you think you've been clear enough in the way that you, I guess, have sold it to voters? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's pretty clear what we're trying to do. I think we've made it clear what the intent of the bill is to make sure we're preventing harm and making sure we're in situations where people are going through a decision about who they want to be, um, that they have the absolute right to do that. Um, [00:08:00] I know, you know, even from a little bit of the engagement we had just before we made our announcement that there will be some feedback from the community. We'll watch that closely through the select committee because we want to make sure that Bill is as good as it can be. Proactively released documents show. Ministry of Justice officials told Chris Faro clear communication on conversion therapy and hate speech. Law changes was key to properly informing the debate. Do you feel like you have properly informed the debate? Well, I agree with the [00:08:30] Ministry of Justice. And, yes, Chris Faro's recent performance has shown how easily sensitive policies can blow up in labor's face. But it's not a godsend for national. With the legislation highlighting the divide between its liberal and conservative MPs. Political commentator and national Party member Liam Hare says social issues will always be a sore spot for the party because the National Party isn't a conservative party. It's a conservative [00:09:00] and a liberal party. There's not going to be a high degree of consensus on on these or many social issues. So you know, when it decides to object or support something, it's always going to have to have and and cautions, and it's going to have to make internal compromises. And it means that its messaging is always going to be a little bit confused at the best of times. That's just that's just an outcome of being a big tent party or a broad, broad church party. And the messaging this time round [00:09:30] has been confusing. In February, after the government announced it was working on a conversion therapy ban, national leader Judith Collins told reporters her party would back it. We're opposed to gay conversion therapy, and so we look forward to the bill being presented to us. And why is that? Can you explain why the National Party, that's the right thing to do? We none of us have any, uh, truck with anybody being bullied [00:10:00] or told that they're wrong. Uh, when they're dealing with their sexuality did come to a unanimous decision on that. Our decision was absolutely, um, it was a decision. Um, everyone was very happy with it. Can you explain how exactly you reached that decision and what research you did. Well, I, um, use this thing called Google to find out more about it. And then I also listen to people like young nationals who are very progressive on such issues, and [00:10:30] they were very helpful. But it appears as though the message from the young Nats was drowned out by the party's conservative majority. On Tuesday, the National Party released a statement following its weekly caucus meeting. It supported the bill's intent, but not as it is currently worded. National would be opposing the legislation at first reading. Now that we've seen the bill, it's clear that there are a couple of issues that do need to be ironed out. So we've made clear that a couple of sticking points for us now [00:11:00] should be discussed and debated, and if we can get there in terms of those being resolved, then we'll be in a position where we can vote for it at second reading and beyond, I asked nationals Chris Pink, filling in for the party's justice spokesperson, Simon Bridges. What the party wants to see changed in the legislation, We'll see what is brought forward by a way of things that we may not have understood or considered as at now, because I say the bill is pretty new. But certainly the one major sticking point that appears clear to us is [00:11:30] that it's not clear that a parent, uh, will be free from criminal prosecution following a conversation with their own child. Even as initiated by the child, there's no consent exception, and there's no parental exception. Part of the problem with conversion therapy is Children. Young people are taken to these conversion therapy practises, um, sometimes by their parents. And that is part of the problem because their parents are unhappy with the sexual orientation that they, um, you know, fall [00:12:00] under or whatever. And they're unhappy with that so that they take their Children to these conversion therapy practises. Shouldn't parents be punished for that? Trying to change their Children? Well, I think there's a lot of different, uh, possibilities within even what you've described. And I think it's a genuine, serious, uh, good faith question that you pose. Um, and that's exactly the kind of thing that we need to thrash out, um, at select committee. And it might be that we draw a line uh, as a parliament between a parent having conversations themselves as opposed to a parent, saying, Uh, without the consent of the young person, [00:12:30] I'm going to take you to a third party who will change your mind or whatever. So maybe that's a valid distinction. But again, you know, it's not for me to prejudge that in terms of the select committee process, it's for everyone who's got a strong view on it to make a submission. Changes in the bill, however, won't rid national of its divide. Is it possible for the party to reach consensus on conversion therapy? And what would it take? The answer to? Whether we can all come around a single view? Uh, will be, uh, it's very much the boards in the government's court. Um, because [00:13:00] if the minister Chris we can do a better job of understanding and explaining his own bill, that will give us more comfort. And certainly if there's a willingness to listen and to change as needed, including, and especially again in relation to the parental exemption and maybe allowing for a young person if they want to consent to have a discussion, then you know that will make our life a lot easier in terms of deciding the ACT. Party shares similar concerns to National but took a more conventional approach. We're going to vote for it at the first reading because we believe that [00:13:30] people deserve to have a say at select committee. I think it's very unlikely that we'll continue to audit. They're going to have to argue very hard to show that this piece of legislation isn't going to inadvertently criminalise conversations between parents and their Children. I think that's wrong. National was the lone opposition voice during the heated first reading at Parliament. Madam Speaker. We want to make a very firm statement that conversion practises do not work. [00:14:00] Parents should be allowed to be parents and to explore sexuality and gender with their Children. I felt like I was broken. I felt like I needed to be fixed. I heard words like abomination. I am not an abomination. My God does not believe that abomination. He loves me just the way I am. We will always support to be who they are, and conversion therapy, which tries to stop [00:14:30] for being who they are, has no place in a might be in New Zealand, but not a at the heart of this is our Children and them knowing that they are perfect as they are, that they are loved and that we, as a society will value them and not let any harm happen to them and their exploration and their expression of who they are. I seriously say to the national Party, you are on [00:15:00] the wrong side of history. So the Labour government members are basically saying the state should have more say over your family than parents. That's exactly it. That is the crux of it. So make the parental exemption. Nationals Opposition leaves the caucus at odds with its youth wing The president of the Young Nats, Stephanie Anne Ross, says she's deeply disappointed the party didn't support the bill at first reading. The group has long supported a ban on conversion therapy [00:15:30] and said while the bill isn't perfect, the problem should be ironed out at select committee. And that's where the bill is off to now, a reminder that regardless of how National chooses to vote, the majority government has the mandate to do what it wants. Legislation banning conversion therapy will become law. Let's focus on politics. I'm Katie Scotch. Thanks for joining us, mate.
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