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So here we have George Maple and George Mag is going to tell us about FUBG. Hi, Hannah. How's it going? Um, yes, a square book group or FQBG is something that, um I started with some friends, like, a year ago. How did you think to Were you sitting around and throwing some ideas around, or how did that come out? We were kind of just It was like new years that we basically came up with the idea and we were, like, [00:00:30] had, like, this burst of energy. We just decided that we needed to, like, have a forum to sort of talk about some of the things that we started gender studies and such papers. It like it isn't really, like, socially appropriate to discuss some of the things that we talk about in other contexts. So, like why we thought it was important to tell me some of the socially inappropriate things that you talk about, I don't know. Like when we talk about feminism, this is not always a popular topic with your flatmates or, [00:01:00] you know, sort of boring people at parties and things like that, but, um yeah, we thought it was important to talk about. And so yeah, and we like talking about what we read as well. So so is it. Did you kind of think of the idea because you'd been talking about particular topics at parties and people were like, Oh, and you, you know, from the responses, you could see that it was really socially uncool or something, or Well, [00:01:30] yeah, not really. But like, I'm just kind of just kidding around there, but, you know, like, people sort of don't want to get really heavily into sort of political ideas, and they don't want to get really deeply into discussions about, you know, gender in their everyday lives. And that is because I think that they feel they take it too personally or something. And it it does sort of cut a bit fine when they're sort of being seen as a victim or an oppressor or [00:02:00] something like that, or, you know, like, that's kind of how they might feel about it. They might think that it's all about them. Exactly. Yeah, like or, you know, maybe they just think that that kind of stuff is boring, but we don't think it's boring. So you started up after New Year, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, Well, some time after that, when we had a meeting and talked about what we're gonna do and we started just like having a couple of meetings at [00:02:30] my house, and then it kind of more people started coming. And so we got, like, a a real venue, which is very fortunate that we've got that because otherwise I don't know where we'd put all the people that are coming along now. So how did it all grow? You You know, you had a few meetings, and it just was it word of mouth or Yeah, pretty much like it just started with our friends. And then we started inviting other people along and people told each other, and I guess [00:03:00] kind of word of mouth. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. And how many people come to the to the average meeting? Um, the last meeting we had there was 13 new people as well as everyone else. And so that was pretty huge, but yeah, usually meetings are about sort of around 12 people, but that was a particularly popular topic. What was that? That was on polyamory. And what are the topic. Is it monthly or weekly, or, um, we run once a month. [00:03:30] We've been thinking about maybe running more often, but for now, it's once a month, sort of on an evening. And, yeah, some of the other topics that we've been doing. Um, so, yeah, the last one we had was polyamory, which was really popular. Um, I guess everyone pretty much hates monogamy or something. Um, or, you know, at least wants to talk about it, which I think is often the most important thing. Whether you do it or not is kind of irrelevant if you get the opportunity [00:04:00] to talk about it most of the time. And, yeah, we had a really good one on fighting phobia, um, women in history, which was kind of just people prepared something that on a particular person I did to Lula Bankhead. Yeah, and we had an, um a discussion on the commercialization of identity and the pink dollar and that kind of thing, So, yeah, we talked about gentrification and sort of money and marketing [00:04:30] and all that stuff. Um, we had a really hands on thing with feminism and art. So we all made a and talked about feminists and did role plays and that kind of thing. And we've had a couple of things on psychology and feminism, which, um, is something that some people in the group are actually studying. So it's really interesting to talk about that and sort of theoretical perspectives of feminist [00:05:00] philosophies around psychology, I guess. Yeah. And we had, um a more fun one with a feminist that you don't agree with. So, yeah, we ripped into, like, all those feminists from the sixties that now we completely don't agree with, Um, yeah, we had one about lesbian identity and invisibility, which is, um, a really fun [00:05:30] one. And I had some good discussions. Um, the feminism in medicine one was really well attended as well. Like people kind of. It's kind of interesting that the issues that people think are really important. So do people pick, Do you? Is there a core group or a collective or something? And you pick the next month's topic, or does it just kind of come out? We usually try and find people that are sort of interested in talking about something, so it's not It's not us. [00:06:00] That sort of, um handle the talking to the group or facilitating every single meeting. Usually we just find someone who wants to sort of arrange a group of people and talk about it and have some discussion questions. And, yeah, let's prepare a little bit. And so does someone kind of do a talk and then you have a discussion or, uh, well, it can. It's sort of we've had, like, quite different ways of running it. So, like each meeting is not like the last. [00:06:30] So we've been kind of experimenting with what works and what doesn't and that kind of thing, and we've decided that it's a good idea if we share our meetings now. So sometimes we have a chair. So cheers are always good, aren't they? So are the people that attend often are they agree with each other quite a lot. Or just do a lot of, um, sessions get quite heated. And, um, I think it's pretty much we all have different [00:07:00] perspectives, but we all come from a background of feminism or something like that. So we all are sympathetic to sort of opening up our minds and that kind of thing. So we do have disagreements, but, you know, it sort of. It's more like a sparking. A discussion kind of disagreement. Then I sort of I hate you. And you. I'm never coming back to the group again. So what have been some of the I guess obviously [00:07:30] you do this because you're really interested in all the topics and having yarns about this. What have been some of the really, really interesting things for you that you've gone. Oh, wow. I would have never thought about that. Or um Oh, wow, that's at the end of the last one. We ended up having a really interesting sort of like a segue into some issues around queer politics and where people sort of stand on that and whether someone who isn't really political but is [00:08:00] gay or lesbian is as queer as someone who is potentially straight but who supports queer politics. So, yeah, we had, like, a really sort of long in depth discussion, which is really like I was quite surprised, surprised that people had actually, like, really thought about it and, you know, had some interesting things to say. So what were some of the I guess, points of views that came out of that. Um, some people think that, um, people that sort [00:08:30] of lollop off to ivy every weekend and, um who yeah, who who don't really have any sort of politics or personal code of ethics for operating in the political world. Uh, we we sort of There was the opinion that maybe they're not as clear as another gay or lesbian person. That sort of has a queer politics, like they do the opposite of [00:09:00] sort of centrist values. Kind of, um So, yeah, we had the other shoe foot scenario because, um, there was the opinion that those people also are, like, probably the most visible queers as well. And so, like, even by leaving the house, they're sort of making a political move or something like that with their T shirts and their skinny jeans. [00:09:30] Yeah. So tell me about you identify as a lesbian, talk to me about lesbian invisibility, because that was I think that was a term that was around a while ago. Does it still apply, or how does it apply? Um, we just kind of in that discussion, we talked about how lesbians aren't, um, the sort of the main voice of gay and lesbian and everyone else politics. So, yeah, so [00:10:00] people have stereotypes about lesbians, but they don't sort of see lesbians when they're right in front of them as well. So people sort of expect, like a big butch dyke with sort of cigarettes rolled into a t-shirt or something like that. Um, but this is definitely not the case. And while there is, like a lesbian culture that has some of those stereotype of aspects in it, I think, um, especially for, like, fem women. I think we talked [00:10:30] about how they sort of struggle to sort of be recognised as queer and is yeah, outside of the, um What's the word? Norm? The norm. Thank you. Yeah. So have you. Have you always known that you're a lesbian? Um, I think I always kind of felt that I was different, but I don't think I've always identified as [00:11:00] a lesbian. I think a lesbian is something that reflects your cultural identity as much as it does your sexual identity. And I think being a lesbian, for me is about sort of being a part of, like a gay culture rather than anything about my sexuality. per se, like there's definitely a correlation, but it's kind of hard to sort of describe. It's [00:11:30] yeah, like because, like being attracted to girls in high school. You You're not like I am a this because I think that girls are hot. Yeah, I think that's something that you have to try out the label. And I see if you can feel like a lesbian is like, an ok thing to be And then, yeah, sort of So a little bit like the difference [00:12:00] between someone who is, I don't know, a homosexual And someone who I, I guess, identifies as as lesbian or as gay and is involved in queer communities or whatever. Yeah, so, yeah, I think part of coming out to myself was being like, I can be a lesbian. Yeah. And I I couldn't like, I think when I was first sort of thinking about it, it was kind of like a lesbian [00:12:30] is something that I'm definitely not, because I just couldn't be a lesbian because of, you know, like where I'm from and connotations or just like you look like that. And I'm not like that. Yeah, pretty much exactly that. Like I just didn't feel like I had the that, like, other. And how did that change? Was it to do with your interaction or partaking in queer communities [00:13:00] or lesbian communities or Yeah, pretty much, I think I I sort of got more information about what being a lesbian culturally actually meant. And then sort of deciding that that, like, my my sexuality actually mattered in terms of how I was going to relate to the rest of the world as well. And sort of that was gonna be something that would make me go down certain pathways or whatever it was, you know, like, [00:13:30] uh and so what were some of your early, I guess forages or interactions with the lesbian communities? Was it in Wellington or, um, I actually grew up in so yeah, my parents still living in. So Yeah, that's where I'm pretty much from. And there really aren't any gay people there like, I'm sure, But they're invisible. Yeah, like they're not telling. And [00:14:00] I think not having any like queer role models in that community was kind of maybe why I took so long to get my head around being a lesbian as well. But Yeah, like I moved to Wellington and had a lot more influences from other lesbians. And how did you find? How did I find out? No, no, no. I live with with, um, some [00:14:30] lesbians, and so did you find that very much in a closet? But I was living with a lesbian and things, and it was, like, blah, blah, blah. And she would, like, talk about what she did on the weekend, and, yeah, so was it accidentally you moved into a flat and there happened to be a lesbian, or you kind of talked around for flats and people were like, Hey, like, how did you find her? I don't know. I think she was just, like, friends of friends. Kind of. [00:15:00] Yeah. And through her kind of talking about what she got up to on weekends. And you you saw that something existed and you could be part of it. Yeah, like finding out where people go and that kind of thing, just from her. Maybe, um, and just Yeah, like having the option of getting involved in the community and, um, meeting people and that kind of thing. So you kind of struggled with I guess imagining yourself as a lesbian. Did you Once you kind of saw that [00:15:30] there was ways to be a lesbian or that there were lesbians out there and they weren't completely invisible. Did you have any struggle to accept that you were a lesbian then, like personally with yourself, or did it just kind of come along with that? I think it took. It was kind of a gradual thing. I think that the hardest part was probably sort of dealing with my own kind of issues around what a what a lesbian would be would mean for, like, my friends and my family and that kind of thing. And how do they cope with [00:16:00] you being a lesbian? They're pretty cool, actually. But I was so psyched, I doubt anyway, like Oh, no, they're all going to reject me that kind of thing. Um, and they didn't. Of course it's good, but yeah, you do sort of like build it up in your head a lot, So it's not as bad. So everyone come out. No, no one's gonna hate you for it, but it actually is real bad for some people. [00:16:30] I know, but like in my experience. It's fine. So I recommend it. If you had come out at school, what do you think? The responses there would have been like, um, I don't know, Like I was sort of like an almost popular kid, Not quite like the most popular, But, like, I think maybe people might have changed their sort of attitudes to me. Just because I don't know. It's kind of like a right wing school. Is that Could I say that? Yeah, I think you're allowed to [00:17:00] say that. Do you mean that they would vote national if they were? Or do you mean you mean kind of conservative values like they think that homosexuals are strange people, sort of criminal equities and that kind of thing, like, untrustworthy Or, you know, like all these, all these negative stereotypes that they would say about gay people or something. And, you know, like, it wasn't like a positive thing that you called someone you weren't like, [00:17:30] Oh, that's so gay. It's like, yeah, and particularly with guys. I mean, they're always like casting sort of doubts upon the other's sexuality, and I think, as a way to pick up a lot of them didn't feel like a very comfortable but yeah, I. I remember having like lots of debates with my music teacher about gay people and how they were OK. And even though I was like, I'm not one, [00:18:00] but I reckon they are OK. And so your music teacher was saying that they weren't OK or, uh, pretty much. Yeah. Oh, dear the music teacher who we shall remain unnamed. So do you think that there's, you know, with all homosexual law reform and this that and the other and people on Shortland Street and and what do you think? There's still homophobia in in our society today. Well, I think the difficulty is there's [00:18:30] just not like there's nowhere for young people to really see positive gay and lesbian role models in the community. Like which I think maybe if there were just like more people that were out and lived, sort of OK lives and, you know, like, people would be able to see that there's a future in gayness without, like, all this sort of negative stuff. So you think [00:19:00] that it doesn't happen enough? Yeah, I think that if if people will sort of like like if the gay characters and stuff weren't automatically like sex crazed maniacs. Who? Yeah, Or, you know, like they're always in, like, cop dramas and stuff and supporting roles. But, like, that's good, but it could be a bit more sort of varied and [00:19:30] have some actual, like, positive stuff associated with that. Yeah, so, um, if BG a way of, you know that that's part of your community work. But is it also a way to kind of generate change and get people thinking and and moving and acting? Well, like when we started it, we didn't really envisage it as, like, a political thing or like that we were gonna change the world or anything, but I think just being able to talk about it is pretty cool. Yeah. So the feminist [00:20:00] Queer Book group. That's some of the ways that you're involved in, I guess Queer communities or gay and lesbian communities or whatever. What other things do you do to be involved? Um, apart from going to Ivy with your teacher Oh, yeah. I was gonna say Go to bars. No. Say hi. That's around. And do you Do you think there's a need for gay bars? and totally like. I think one of the best times I've had in Wellington was at um yeah, I used to go there a lot. [00:20:30] And that was when I was like, I can go to town and talk to people by myself. And I don't need my friends to come with me, and this is all OK. And I was just Yeah, it was really good to sort of have a place to go and that kind of thing, and, yeah, just be around other gay people. I think it's really important it be cool if it wasn't always like an alcoholic establishment that you had to meet the people in because, you know, you end up having regrets [00:21:00] drunken R, which I will not talk about now. So you'd like to see more, I guess more visibility or more. Representation or not, there isn't just token of gay and lesbian queer people. How are you treated in society? Um, I don't really notice anymore as much like Do you think that's because it's changed or you you just work it out? [00:21:30] There's sometimes that I do feel kind of uncomfortable and that is like and particularly in women's bathrooms. I think people are, like, really suspicious of me. And I always get that. Do you mean funny looks? Yeah, like the evils of people will actually ask you what you're doing in there or yeah, mostly Just, you know, like, they'll make jokes about it or something. And you'll be like, I feel really uncomfortable now, [00:22:00] something like that when you you just want to urinate something. Yeah, it's it's weird that that's so like, defended. It is a place where you sort of have to be so so female. What do you think that is? Did people just feel funny about their way or I don't know. I think I yeah, I've, you know, if I tried to struggle with the getting into the the sort of mindset of people that look at me strange, [00:22:30] you know, I think I'd probably go crazy because I just don't really understand that I. I just don't think that having a a sort of, um a a solely your gendered space is necessarily a valuable goal. And I think sort of a lot of women will try and police what a woman is, anyway. So I'm just like my message [00:23:00] is just everyone relax. Take a deep breath. So are there other things that you'd like to change in society? Um, I would like world peace. World peace? Yeah, why not? Yep, I think in terms of my sort of feminism, it's kind of like everyone just get out of each other's way feminism and create a space where you can just express [00:23:30] yourself freely and that kind of thing that down really Every theory. I think it sounds great. Was that what has your feminism in your politics? Or I guess, you know, setting up a group to have yarns about really important things Has that kind of come out of doing gender studies? And was it women studies or gender studies or both? I did like one paper studies, but it's always been something that I'd be really interested in. Um, yeah, I used to like I used [00:24:00] to always incorporate it in whatever I was writing about in my history papers or whatever, like something about gender or yeah, or like seating. Lesbian erotica is my sort of history reading or something that's pretty cool. And the other people that are part of the the group that go along regularly has their, I guess feminism or their politics or the stuff that they like to talk about, being, [00:24:30] I guess, influenced or shaped by also going to university and doing gender studies or yeah, I think that's another reason why we started the group is just because we'd all graduated and didn't have people to rant at anymore. No. Yeah. Uh, yeah, we just kind of wanted to be listened to. And in a way, like I'm really smart. Here are my ideas. And so, um, one of the topics [00:25:00] that you had at, uh the the FBG was what were you saying? Like old school feminist or sixties feminism? Oh, yeah, we had, um, don't agree with. And so would most of the people that go to the group be kind of younger, not around in the sixties or slightly older people. Um, yes, we we are not exclusively 20 something. And what were some of the big I guess [00:25:30] disagreements with feminism from the sixties that, you know, I guess younger feminists are disagreeing with, um we talked a bit about Sheila Jeffries. Tell me about Sheila Jeffries. Um, Sheila Jeffrey wrote about how transsexuals are really a bad thing. And they are people who just dress up and fake clothing. And she also had an issue with but lesbianism. So she [00:26:00] was like, she has this great sentence sentence about mutant Fes or something like that. You know, it sounds like a good name for that. Just replicating the patriarchy and stuff, and you can certainly feel the passion, but I just kind of think it's misdirected. And it's just sort of directing against, you know, people whose life is hard enough that she still saying it today. Like in not in the sixties anymore. Yeah, something to that effect. [00:26:30] Yeah. Yeah, but, um yeah, so we talked about that and some other feminists that we didn't agree with. I can't really remember, like, exactly everyone, but so do you think feminism has changed? Because I guess it still gets a a bit of a bad rep or it gets a rep of, you know, it's been done. It got done in the sixties and seventies. Why are we still talking about it now and now we almost earn the same amount as men do. So you know, it's probably all OK, [00:27:00] at least theory, So it's still relevant for still relevant. Um, I just don't think that women are like as valued as men are. And I think that people need to sort of sort of look at feminism of the past and try and adapt them to our current sort of messy, globalised world [00:27:30] because I think that feminist ideas are important. And, yeah, like, I'm almost tell me about what limp is like. You know that whole like, um, sort of a quality of pay sort of fair deal thing. But I think that I think that why women don't get paid as much is because they have to take time out to have kids and because there's not really enough provision for having kids because we set up so [00:28:00] that men don't have to look after kids that women end up missing out on the sort of the centre of their career, and they sort of recover from that well, often don't recover from that and also, um, industries, which are dominated by women for no apparent reason, get less money. And yeah, you can't just sort of explain it away with economics. So you have to be like, [00:28:30] well, something's gonna change and, you know, maybe it's going to change from the top. Or maybe it's going to change just from everyone. But yeah, it's Yeah, it's interesting to think about. Yeah. So have you thought about that stuff because you plan to have Children? Or is it something that you've just seen statistically or with your friends? Or, um, I just think that it's one of the unfairness of society that keep people sort of doing the same things. One of the things, I guess [00:29:00] it's more complicated than just, um, getting paid as much. But yeah. So it's still relevant? Yes. Do you think societal attitudes have changed? Yes, I think so. But I think that you get all of those old ideas and all of the like new ideas and sort of tolerances of people, and you get them all kind of mixed up together in society. [00:29:30] And it's kind of like still, it still seems like a battle to, like be accepted at the time, you know? What about queer communities? How do you How do you guess? I guess Feel about Wellington Queer communities or, um, it's does it exist, or I? I like the gays in Wellington and the lesbians in Wellington, and I think they're pretty great people. I think people do complain a lot [00:30:00] that there's not enough on or that there's nowhere to go or that everyone go. The bar is the same and, yeah, but I think people do need to sort of remember that, you know, they actually have to participate in their community for it to even happen. So I think if people didn't sort of watched Season three of heroes or winter and, you know, went out and organised some parties [00:30:30] or something, then the community would be better off and everyone would have such a great time. So if I was a person interested in coming along to the FQBG and having yarns, how would I find you? Um, you can email FQBG post at gmail dot com or you can find us on Facebook or, you know, you can just hit me up. If you see me around and just ask me about it, yeah, that's basically [00:31:00] it great.
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