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I call on Government Orders of the Day Numbers one and two Criminal records Expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences Bill First reading and government notice of motion number one regarding an apology to homosexual New Zealanders convicted for consensual adult activity The Honourable Amy Adams. Mr Speaker, I move that the criminal records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences [00:00:30] Bill be now read a first time I nominate the Justice and Electoral Committee to consider the bill. I also move government notice of motion number one that this house apologise to those homosexual New Zealanders who are convicted for consensual adult activity and recognise the tremendous hurt and suffering those men and their families have gone through and the continued effects the convictions have had on them. Mr. Speaker, today we're putting on the record that this house deeply [00:01:00] regrets the hurt and stigma suffered by the many hundreds of New Zealand men who were turned into criminals by a law that was profoundly wrong. And for that we are sorry. We're acknowledging that these men should never have been burdened with criminal convictions and we're recognising the continued effects that the convictions have had on their lives and the lives of their families. New Zealand has a proud reputation for fairness, freedom and diversity. It's unimaginable today that we would criminalise [00:01:30] consensual sexual activity between adults. Almost four years ago, this parliament passed the Marriage Definition of Marriage Amendment Act 2013 to allow same sex couples to legally marry, and I was proud to vote in favour of it. Today is another historic day for the New Zealand gay community and their families as Parliament formally apologises for the hurt caused by the convictions and takes the first reading of a bill to expunge those convictions, [00:02:00] Mr Speaker, it is never too late to apologise. While we cannot ever erase the injustice, this apology is a symbolic but an important act that we hope will help address the harm and right this historic wrong. The Homosexual Law Reform Act of 1986 decriminalised sexual conduct between consenting males aged 16 and older, the right to be free from discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, was later [00:02:30] recognised in the Human Rights Act of 1993. However, convictions for those offences remain on record. This means that they can appear in criminal history checks and those New Zealanders continue to be tainted with the stigma that such convictions carry. This bill seeks to address the ongoing stigma, prejudice and other negative effects arising from a conviction for a historical homosexual offence by creating a statutory scheme for [00:03:00] a convicted person or a representative on their behalf of that person is deceased to apply for the conviction to be expunged. This is the first expungement scheme ever to be created in New Zealand, reflecting the uniqueness of the situation. I cannot think of any other situation where a government in this country would seek to rewrite criminal histories based on changes in societal views. It is clear that the laws under which the men are affected were convicted [00:03:30] have not represented the views of most New Zealanders for many years, and it's right that we now formally recognise that while it's impossible to know the exact numbers, it's estimated that around 1000 people may be eligible to apply under the scheme. This is based on analysis of conviction data published by the then Department of Statistics on people convicted of indecency between males, which was the most common offence prosecuted between 1965 and 1986. [00:04:00] The bill provides that the Secretary of justice will be the decision maker and expungement applications. The secretary will determine on the balance of probabilities whether the application meets the test for expungement. If the application is successful, the conviction would not appear on a criminal history check and the person would not be required to disclose information about the expunged conviction for any purpose. It will be as if they were never convicted. It will be free to apply for an expungement, [00:04:30] and the test will be that the conduct constituent uh constituting the offence would not be an offence. Under today's law, this test is necessary to ensure that historical convictions are not expunged if the conduct was nonconsensual or the parties were not of legal age. In other words, if the behaviour would still be considered criminal today, five historical his uh homosexual offences are covered by this bill. These include offences under the Crimes Act 1961 that were repealed by the Homosexual [00:05:00] Law Reform Act of 1986 and the predecessors of those offences under the Crimes Act 19 08. The offences involve those of indecency between males, sodomy and the keeping of places of resort for homosexual acts. The scheme will be open to applications from people with historical convictions for offences relating to sexual conduct between consenting men. If the person is deceased, a representative, such as a family member or partner, will be able to make the application [00:05:30] on their behalf. The primary obligation to provide information and support of an application will fall on the applicant and the secretary of justice will be able to obtain any further information he or she considers necessary to make a proper assessment of the application. The applicant will not be required to make any appearance in person, nor will the effect of the application be made public to protect the privacy of those involved. The bill is modelled on a number of schemes in Australian states, England and Wales. [00:06:00] The New Zealand scheme is more closely aligned with those in Australian states where people can apply to have their convictions disregarded. It would not be appropriate to go further and create a blanket pardon for all historical uh, convictions for homosexual offences. It is possible that people convicted under the appeal offences would have been convicted for conduct, which is still illegal today, for example, if the activities concerned were not consensual. A case by case assessment of the facts of each case is therefore necessary [00:06:30] to clarify whether the conduct would be lawful. Under the current law, the bill relies on an application by the effective person or their representative because not every convicted person will want an investigation into the history of their conviction. There is a need to respect the privacy of those who choose, for whatever reason not to pursue the option of having a conviction expunged. In addition, there would be real limitations on the ability to investigate a case without the cooperation of the affected person, [00:07:00] as they will often be the primary source of information for the decision maker. Mr Speaker, let me once again acknowledge the enormous pain that the New Zealanders affected by these convictions have lived with. It is my hope that this bill and Parliament's apology will go some way towards addressing that as well as acting to once and for all. Remove the taint and the label of criminality we want by these actions to formally acknowledge and put on record [00:07:30] both the hurt and the damage caused and the fact that those convictions should not have occurred. Mr. Speaker, I proudly commend the bill to the house. Very good [00:08:00] morning. Um, the question is that the motion be agreed to Grant Robertson. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to thank the minister for her motion [00:08:30] and the bill that she is bringing before the house today and for her personal leadership in bringing this important matter before us. It's hard from a perspective of 2017 to comprehend a world in which it was a crime for two adult men to love one another. It is harder still to imagine the feelings of anxiety, fear, despair and depression that such a law engendered. [00:09:00] I cannot say it better than one of the submitters on petition who quoted a man whose conviction forced him to resign from the army. And these are his words. This conviction still leads after 53 years to self hatred, worthlessness, unjustified guilt and shame to relieve the anguish and pain. Chronic drinking and self-destruction took control over [00:09:30] the next 10 to 15 years until the realisation that I was not a two headed monster, and there were many others like me throughout the world. He he goes on. I love my country but live in fear of being found out of further humiliation. Panic attacks When I see a uniformed police officer and a general feeling of being unworthy to be myself, something few others would understand should this petition [00:10:00] be approved, it would be it would be, at this late point in my life, a chance to respect myself and to feel some dignity in my final years. Mr. Speaker, we owe him and thousands like him. Not just an apology, but our respect and a sense of dignity. This apology and this bill begin to do that. Two weekends ago, I had the honour of attending [00:10:30] a service to mark the 50th anniversary of the delivery of a sermon by the Reverend Godfrey Wilson at Saint Paul's Church in Willow Street in June 1967 highlighting the treatment of homosexuals. It was a radical call for acceptance and inclusion at that time, the core of the sermon is about a man named John who is met by a prison chaplain. John is an able person, intelligent. He works in a bank, but he's now [00:11:00] in prison. He had found love with Colin, and they had moved into a flat together. It wasn't easy. There were tensions and quarrels, but there was also love. After being together a year, the landlord gave them notice. Another tenant had complained about about pansies in the building. In the stress that followed, the relationship between John and Colin ended, John became depressed and his life spiralled down until he was imprisoned for 12 [00:11:30] months for his homosexual activities. John said to the chaplain, And I quote, If you fall in love and marry, that's fine. But if I fall in love and want to share it, that's perversion and must be persecuted and punished. Do you wonder that I have thought of suicide? What is there for me? Who cares about me? Mr. Speaker, let us be clear. The illegality of homosexuality, the arrests and [00:12:00] the imprisonments and the fear of that happening did not just ruin lives and destroy potential. It killed people. Hundreds, possibly thousands of lives have been lost because men could not bear the shame, the stigma and the hurt caused by this parliament and the way that society viewed them as criminals. It is for all of that that we must apologise [00:12:30] and as a government and a parliament to those men who are still alive and to those that have passed on and their families and to those families. It is important that you take the opportunity afforded by this legislation to give dignity and death to your relatives that this parliament did not allow them in life. I also want to speak today to those gay men who were [00:13:00] not convicted in this period, but rather who lived through it in the face of discrimination in the face of hate and in the face of stigma. We also owe all of you an apology. Whether you were convicted or not, this law was wrong and made your life worse. I want to salute the bravery and courage of all of those homosexual men who lived [00:13:30] through that and then protested and then brought that to the attention of the world. I think in 1986 of those gay men who signed a letter in the New Zealand Herald that put their name to their sexuality and put at risk their lives and their careers that bravery and courage should be acknowledged today as well. On a personal note, Mr Speaker, to all those men, I add my apology. [00:14:00] But I want to do more than that. I want to say that I respect you. I honour you and I stand on your shoulders. Today. The fact that I, as a gay man, can be out and proud and a member of Parliament is but a small tribute to you. But more so than that, Mr Speaker, Next year, ALF and I will celebrate 20 years of being together and early the next year 10 years of our civil Union. And next [00:14:30] week we'll get to look after our grandchildren in the school holidays. All things that would have been unimaginable to you. But yet which are your legacy? We owe to you as well that we will continue to fight for inclusion and fairness for all in our society. Mr. Speaker, Turning to the bill itself In the last 30 years, much has been achieved from homosexual law reform to the Human Rights Act to civil unions to marriage, equality. [00:15:00] And it was right that those things were done. But now is the right time to make this wrong right and expunge for all time. Those unwarranted and hurtful convictions. Creating a process to do this is going to be difficult. Other countries and jurisdictions have grappled with how to make this work. I look forward to a select committee process on this bill that finds a process that is as fair and as quick as it can be in the UK. They have found categories of convictions that are easily [00:15:30] identifiable as simply being the result of being lewd conduct. I acknowledge in New Zealand it is not as easy to separate that out. And we need look no further, Mr Speaker than the life of one of our greatest authors, Frank Sarge. For this, Frank began life as Norris Davey, a gay man. Norris had a number of casual relationships with men and in the late 19 twenties, and Wellington went home with another man named Leonard. Hola. Police had been monitoring Mr Holi and burst into his room when Frank and he were in [00:16:00] bed together. They were arrested for committing indecent assault. They were, of course not, but rather two consenting adults. In any event, Frank was convinced to testify that he was an innocent party in return for a suspended sentence. Whereas Mr Holi got five years hard labour at New Plymouth Prison. How on earth do we untangle cases such as this? Where everything is not as it appears. I think the committee will need to work hard to find a process that [00:16:30] is not unnecessarily burdensome and in it has an element of trust in those who survive and their families. Mr. Speaker, I want to in my final, uh, period of time, look towards the future. The other issue that the Committee is going to have to deal with is that of compensation. This is a fraud issue. I know that in other countries, particularly in Germany, in just the last few weeks, they have established a system of compensation. I encourage the committee [00:17:00] to look carefully at this issue, to see what is possible and to even consider the option of being a little creative about the possibility of using some form of funding and money to support those today who come out those today who grapple with their gender identity. Because, Mr Speaker, what we should do on this occasion today is not just apologise for the wrongs of the past, but make a commitment to take the journey from our current tolerance of difference [00:17:30] and diversity to one of acceptance, embracing and celebrating diversity. Because for all of the legislation that we have passed the opportunities we have created, we are not there yet because even today the shame and hurt of being different from the majority still exists. Young people are still given the message that being who they are simply being in love is something that the rest of society is tolerating. Putting up with allowing That's not good enough, Mr [00:18:00] Speaker, today not just gay men, but lesbian, bisexual, transgender, intersex and all the colours of the rainbow need to know that we love them for who they are and the rich and amazing contributions that they make. Today is a day to celebrate progress. But if there's a chance to make wrong right that wrong of the past, we must give the ultimate legacy of a country that includes embraces and cares for all our people. [00:18:30] I I call uh, Mr Speaker in speaking to the criminal records expungement of convictions [00:19:00] for historical homosexual offences. Bill, I want to begin by thanking the chair of the Justice and Electoral Select Committee, Sarah do for yielding what would traditionally be her call in this debate to me, uh, as the first openly gay member of the national caucus, I'm very proud that it is a national government which has taken this step, uh, to do the right thing and to to, um, make some amends for these historic wrongs, which we are discussing today. [00:19:30] I want to also observe, um, that it's a very, uh, strong female member of justice who follows in a strong tradition of female members who have, um, brought justice and clarity in these regards. And I'm talking about, of course, uh, Dame Fran Wilde, who was, uh, the driving force behind decriminalisation in the 19 eighties. I'm talking about the honourable Catherine O'Regan, who is associate minister of health. Uh, made the crucial contribution that saw, uh, discrimination [00:20:00] against people on the basis of sexuality being made illegal in 1993. I also acknowledge across the aisle in the house today, Lesa Wall, Uh, who's Bill brought in? Marriage equality. Uh, and today, the honourable Amy Adams, who is Minister of Justice, uh, is is, uh, seeking to expunge the criminal records for those who apply for it, Uh, in, uh, what I think is a a very important piece of legislation. Uh, Grant Robertson, Uh, who [00:20:30] said Nothing I disagree with in his speech. It's the first time ever. Probably, uh, in this house, Um, Grant observed that, uh, in the past, people were stigmatised, not just those who were convicted of offences. Um, but the entire LGBT community was stigmatised. And that by, uh, passing this legislation that we may actually, uh, bring some, uh, give dignity to those people. Well, I actually think it will also [00:21:00] restore dignity to this house. Uh, I'm a very proud, uh, supporter of our relationship with the United Kingdom. We inherited much, Uh, that is good from our colonial and imperial forebear. But the persecution of gay men in particular was one of those things that we inherited, uh, through our, um, crimes act. It was, uh, embedded by an act of this parliament in 19 08 and further embedded in 1961. And frankly, in my view, uh, Mr [00:21:30] Speaker, those were measures which actually brought, uh, shame upon this house and diminished our mana as a Legislature, which should have, uh, pride in being fair minded at treating people equally and, uh, and supporting a country which values diversity. So I think, uh, in considering this act today, we are going some way to restoring Mana, uh, to this house, which might otherwise have been diminished by those steps in the past. So this isn't just [00:22:00] a theoretical, uh, or symbolic measure. It will have a practical effect for a number of New Zealanders. Uh, last year, I met a gentleman who, uh, had an historic, uh, conviction, uh, for homosexual offences. Uh, who is a teacher? He's still a teacher. He's in his sixties now. And every five years he has to renew his teaching certificate, uh, with educ cans or previously, the teaching council. And this is a gentleman who has to, on a five yearly basis, explain to whoever is his principal at the time [00:22:30] why his criminal record comes back from the Ministry of Justice with an historic sexual offence listed, Uh, this is embarrassing and upsetting for him and obviously a cause for concern in in in any school when they're going through the proper process of verifying that their teachers are safe people to have around young, uh, New Zealanders, our Children of this country. Um, and this is an example of a real person who, uh, through the passage of this bill, uh, once his application [00:23:00] is processed, uh, will not face that unnecessary stigma, uh, that he has to live with. Uh, today, uh, sir, I think, um, there are some challenges involved in this. We, uh, on the Justice and Electoral Committee had the advantage of visiting, uh, Sydney and discussing, uh, with the justice officials of the state of New South Wales. The process they went through when they considered their version of this bill. Um, but I think, uh, those issues can easily be overcome, uh, through the hardworking, uh, [00:23:30] efforts of the Justice Select committee. Uh, so this bill, um, fixes, uh uh or at least gives some redress to a real issue for several 100 New Zealanders who are still affected by these historical convictions. It also sends, I think, a powerful message to our LGBT community in New Zealand, particularly the younger members of that community, that they are valued that their lives are worthwhile, that we, as a parliament do care that [00:24:00] we want to see every New Zealander treated fairly. Uh, and we want to right the wrongs of the past. I think it's an excellent bill. I commend my colleague, the honourable Amy Adams, for getting it through to this point, and I hope it will be passed unopposed in this house. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr. Speaker, This is a red letter day. It is a day that is both noteworthy and will be memorable, Memorable [00:24:30] for many, memorable for gay men, persecuted and prosecuted for having consensual sex with another man, men who were isolated and alienated and forced to seek relationships in places like public toilets and secrecy and in fear. This day will be memorable for family and friends who have waited since the passage of the Homosexual law reform bill [00:25:00] on the 11th of July 1986 31 years on, 31 years on, since a politician in this house told gay men to go back to the sewers where they belong, 31 years since conceptual, consensual sex stopped being a criminal offence with terms of imprisonment. Mr. Speaker, there are very few of us left in this house [00:25:30] today who supported homosexual law reform back in 1986. It's so much easier, I have to say. Now Trevor Mallard, Peter Dunn and myself are the last remaining members who voted for that bill. I also want to acknowledge Ruth Dyson, who did a lot of work on for this bill. Working for Fran Wild stuck in Fran's house [00:26:00] for week after week, working on submissions for members Today, it is hard to imagine the fierceness of the debate of the time, month after month of foul rhetoric, of intense pressures put on members of Parliament not to vote for the bill, the threats, the months of filibuster by the opponents. And I was a new member of parliament in a rural seat in New Zealand, the seat of [00:26:30] and I was told, if I voted for homosexual law reform, I would lose my seat. In fact, at the following election, I increased my majority. I want to commend the courage of the campaigners for reform reform. Before homosexual law, Bill was passed right through to today. They are our heroes. They were on the streets. They campaigned, they petitioned, they never stopped. [00:27:00] And I want to today, knowing that Fran Wilde is not in New Zealand at the moment to commend her courage, she was perhaps the most courageous member of Parliament that I have ever met. So on the 11th of July 1986 a bill was passed. The war was won, but not the battle that is taking longer. There are still human rights to be addressed, and I just want to mention [00:27:30] one particular group transsexual people, transgender people. I think there is still too much discrimination, too much stigmatisation of this very vulnerable group. And I look forward when we can remove that discrimination for these people as well. I commend the minister for bringing the bill and the apology to this house. I think hope that it was a report [00:28:00] that I sent to her, which I'm going to read part of in a moment from one of my constituents that led her to changing her mind about having uh, an expunging bill because she did write to me in April last year, saying there was no she had no plans to have such a bill. I sent her a signed a statement from a constituent who has been visiting me since 1998. [00:28:30] And I have to say, since 1998 I have been advocating for there to be such a bill, and I'm sorry that we could not and did not. In our clean Slate bill of 2004 includes, uh, such a provision because between 1980 1986 the Ministry of Justice shows just in that small period alone, there were 879 convictions for men who had consensual sex [00:29:00] with men. My constituent came to me once again 18 months ago, and I said, put down exactly what you went through, and I will give it to the minister. We both signed the statement. I'm not going to identify my constituent and I'm not going to read all of it, but I want you to hear this part. I met X at the end of 1968 when I was 18 years old. In my first year at University, [00:29:30] I had known for several years I was gay and we began a relationship, and I frequently stayed overnight in his flat. An ex flatmate informed the police that we were queers. That night we went to bed and We were woken at 5 a.m. by a torch being flashed in our face and being gruffly told by two male police officers to get out of bed. We were arrested and taken [00:30:00] to the police station. The end result was X and I were charged and convicted of indecent assault on each other, and we were sentenced to 18 months probation. We were directed by the magistrate to never see each other again, to report regularly to the CIB office and to take psychiatric help As directed. I was sent to a psychiatric hospital where I was psychoanalysed [00:30:30] and after two weeks told was told by the psychologist that I was more sane than most people outside. But my Self-esteem had been shattered. I was very upset and my my parents were troubled by the arrest. Because of the deep embarrassment I have felt about the conviction, I have never travelled to a country which would require a visa. I have never worked overseas, which [00:31:00] I'd very much like to do. I have had no other convictions since 1969. It may seem strange to somebody who's not experienced this, but I feel I am haunted by it. I feel. Think about it every day, every night I spend time locking doors and windows before I go to bed to ensure no intruder will enter again while I'm asleep. I've never told anybody, but at times [00:31:30] I feel unworthy wondering what people would say about somebody if they knew the charge, indecent assault on a male and not understanding what really happened for 28 years. I feel I did not feel able to discuss it with anybody except two friends. And this is signed by my constituent, but also by his lover of the time. And I hope [00:32:00] that this bill will expunge this man's conviction because that is what it must do. I'm not saying it's going to be easy because there is a process that must go through and there is going to be a decision made by somebody else that it has to be expunged. But I hope that we are on. We are on the right track, Mr Speaker, With this bill, I also applaud the apology. It is a very fulsome apology. [00:32:30] I just put one little note in here. I found it sort of ironic that on the day of this apology, The deputy prime minister said she didn't believe in mass apologies and she would only thought of individual ones when it came to those who are asking for help. Um who've been discriminated against in institutions. But this is to the minister a very good apology and we are a generous people. Mr Speaker, we have apologised before [00:33:00] a Labour government apologised to the Chinese in New Zealand who were forced to pay a poll tax because they were Chinese. We apologise to Samoa for the suppression of a national, the nationalistic movement when they were under our rule, we've apologised for other things. Uh, we are a generous people and this is an apology that is long overdue. I know that it will be welcomed by so many people. I certainly welcome it. [00:33:30] And in my dying days of being in this parliament, I am just so pleased to see that we have such an apology and a bill to finish this part of what has been discrimination over so many decades in fact generations. So, Mr Speaker, I commend the minister and I commend this house and hope that every member of it will go and vote for the bill and support the apology. [00:34:00] The people who have suffered for so long deserve nothing less. Mr. Chair, I call Sarah do. Oh, thank you, Mr Chair. It truly is an honour and a privilege, uh, to rise in support of this motion of apology and in favour of the, uh, criminal records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Bill [00:34:30] in its first reading, and the significance of this day is not lost on me. It is significant for New Zealand. It is significant for the LGBT community. And, um, it goes to start the process, um, of healing, uh, to start overcoming some of the hurt that these men have experienced some of the prejudice that these men have experienced, uh, who were consenting adults, Um, [00:35:00] but convicted of a crime that, quite frankly, um, I can't imagine a New Zealand, uh, back in the day when if you were a consenting adult, that you couldn't love a person because they were the same sex or they may be a different race or whatever the prejudice may be, But I certainly can't imagine in New Zealand, um, back in those times. So to live through that must have been incredibly distressing [00:35:30] to be punished for it must have been horrific. And the ramifications of such convictions are life changing as those men walked through life. Um, but as I said, this is a significant day for New Zealand for the LGBT community and for this house as we start, uh, to right the wrongs of the past and move forward. And I am very, very pleased to be the chair of the Justice [00:36:00] and Electoral Select Committee, uh, to lead this process as we do so and so to pay tribute to the Justice and Electoral Select Committee. Uh, who have heard from Dek, um, the petitioner who, um, called for this very subject to be, um, investigated. And for us as a committee, too, to visit Australia, to look at their expungement schemes on this issue. To compare and contrast, I [00:36:30] feel that our collegial committee is best placed to start looking at the issues of this scheme, uh, to look at the advantages and disadvantages of, uh, looking at evidence on the papers, uh, looking at evidence on the balance of pro, uh, probabilities and looking at some of the, uh, old offences that some of these men's men were charged at and what that would bring about, um, and what it [00:37:00] would look like as a final scheme for expungement. I feel that we are best placed to, uh, debate that fairly. And, uh, to look at that in an analytical way to bring about, uh, the best result for these people that have been subjected to this, uh, prejudice, which we all know is, uh, as I said before, distressing and and quite wrong. So I look forward, [00:37:30] uh, to this bill, uh, coming to our select committee, uh, to us calling for submissions. Um, including, uh, what the petitioner has brought to our committee by way of information and processing that and working collegially, uh, to get the best result for these people and for New Zealand moving forward. And as such, um, again, I say a significant day for New Zealand and the L GB community, and, [00:38:00] uh, I commend this bill to the house I call Jan Logie. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Um, it's a huge honour for me to be able to stand and speak in support of this legislation today. And I want to start by acknowledging the community presence here today. Um, and I know it organised at late notice on a work day. Um, it's I think it it signifies the importance of [00:38:30] this to all of us in the community. And I think you do honour to our elders who we are today acknowledging, and also, um, recognising that the shame that they've been carrying has been felt by all of us. So thank you for being here and for your, um I also want to specifically thank um and the campaign to pardon gays and a, um who presented the green [00:39:00] party MP Kevin Hague with the position that was the immediate catalyst for this apology and the expungement that will follow. Well done. You, um you know, it was not a matter of chance. I suspect that Kevin received the petition, considering the greens have always voted unanimously in support of progressive LGBTI Q a legislation. Um, but it's also, I assume because Kevin was [00:39:30] an out gay man in the 19 eighties, living under the cloud of these oppressive lords and campaigning for decriminalisation, he was one of those men who put his life at risk for this campaign and for our collective well-being. Kevin, who sadly um, is not able to be here today because he's no longer in Parliament, asked me to, um, let people know that he's watching and to acknowledge the [00:40:00] work of Jen Lawless, Rian Thomas and Sam Carter, who worked in his office assisting with the setup of this petition. And as it went along, um, today's apology to the bisexual and gay men convicted for consensual adult activities will be a statement as a statement from this parliament. It was the parliament that in 19 05 and 1961 introduced or legalised [00:40:30] homophobia it over. Those laws overrode indigenous laws that held same and both attracted practises and people and diverse gender expression as natural. That was the status quo. Before this government introduced legislation to introduce homophobia, parliament passed the laws that made these [00:41:00] men and so many others outlaws. So it is appropriate that we collectively apologise in the from the petition, the select the Justice and Electoral Select Committee heard from men whose lives were ruined by these laws and their experiences of being convicted. We heard of men whose lives were made small when they could have been huge [00:41:30] because of these convictions. We heard of people isolated and stigmatised and beaten and abused because of these laws and these convictions, and we know that people died as a result of this homophobia. And surely this legislation supported the legitimization [00:42:00] of seeing homosexuality as a mental illness that saw gay people institutionalised through the sixties and seventies and subjected to elect ECT where we know, through that same period where men were being sent to jail, they were also being institutionalised, tied up and drugged and given electrocution through the state's institutionalised homophobia. [00:42:30] We need to acknowledge the harm that has been created before we can undo it. And that is a lesson that I hope this parliament sits and absorbs because it goes beyond this piece of legislation. We need to consider that in many other contexts, and we are being asked to at the moment to those men who were criminalised [00:43:00] and irreparably hurt, who have been left, in the words of one submitter with quote, self hatred, worthlessness, unjustified guilt and shame. Unquote, On behalf of the Green Party, I want to say clearly the shame does not belong with you. The shame belongs with this parliament and our [00:43:30] society for robbing you of your inherent and inalienable rights. We can't undo the damage. But we have listened and heard. We hope that today represents another step towards healing for you. I also hope this house and our country takes today as a moment to reflect. [00:44:00] There is still much work to do to eliminate the prejudice, fear and hatred that these laws established and embedded in our society. Surely the impact of these laws can be the only explanation for the failure of successive governments to ensure access to health care for trans people, for the failure [00:44:30] to ensure our young people are not made invisible in our schools for the failure to ensure the basic safety of our Children at school. That this parliament has still does not seem to have absorbed the fact that actually we still seem to carry a sense of shame associated with our existence. Because of these laws, [00:45:00] we still need to unpack that and disassociate from that shame and embrace our diversity in this country because we will all be better off for it. I want to in the final minutes that I have to address the specific provisions in this bill, Um, that the bill will create a system where men convicted, um, of indecency between males of sodomy of keeping [00:45:30] um, places of resort for homosexual activities can apply in writing to the secretary of justice to have their record expunged, um, and that families of convicted people will also be able to apply on their behalf. And I hope, through the select committee process that we'll have a chance to consider the definition of family in that sense, whether it needs to be a biological family or our sense of family to be able to apply for our [00:46:00] brothers and sisters, our brothers who may not still be with us, and I do want to acknowledge that this was not what and the petitioners were hoping for. They were hoping that there would be a proactive act action taken by the state to review all of the cases and pardon those who were eligible that it would not be reliant on, um, people [00:46:30] applying for this and that. Um, and I do want to acknowledge that, uh, we've heard, um, and the evidence from the officials was that, um, that they considered proactively identifying people with, um, convictions would be, um, probably too expensive and might be re traumatising for the people involved. For the greens, always the test of whether something is going to be re traumatising is to ask. [00:47:00] You know, I think that's really the best test, and that that would have been ideal to be able to check that out, Um, a little more thoroughly, and I'm not sure whether this has ended up on the exact right side of it, but this is a good first step. Um, and I do want to acknowledge that the minister initially said that it would be too hard to do this even because, um that these convictions were tied up with offences like child abuse and other terrible sex [00:47:30] offences. And it was great to hear from the petitioners clearly saying that is the reason to do this because our people, our family members, have been lumped in with people who committed grievous harm against others just for being themselves. And so on that note again, I say the shame does not belong with you. This is the start of more work to unpack that shame [00:48:00] for all of us. I call uh, thank you, Mr Speaker New Zealand first fully supports the motion for an apology. And I would like to thank the minister for being willing to give it on behalf of the whole parliament and also for the way in which she expressed it. New Zealand first also [00:48:30] supports the bill in its entirety. Mr. Speaker, convictions for homosexual offences, especially for those in uh except rather for those involving minors under 16 and except for those involving genuine public order offences, were based on bad law law which was contrary to natural Reason law which was contrary to natural law. They were evil laws [00:49:00] with tragic effects. For those who suffered the convictions under them, those laws and the convictions pursuant to them were and still are an utter disgrace and they were a fundamental and extreme breach of human rights. That's now, of course, confirmed under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and also the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and therefore [00:49:30] the apology is very well deserved and grossly overdue. But as the minister said, it's never too late to apologise. And today we are seeing that happening. But it is of course, too late to avoid the massive damage caused caused by those evil laws. And, uh, by the apology, and through this bill, we will a address, at least some of that, but certainly not all of it. So the bill itself is very welcome [00:50:00] because it enables an application for expungement, uh, through the Secretary of Justice by an eligible person not only, uh, for a living person, but also and I think this is very important by the personal representative of a deceased person. And I think that post mortem expungement is just as important. In fact, maybe even in some ways more important than those on behalf of living [00:50:30] persons. The basis of the test for expungement is the conduct constituting the offence would not constitute an offence under the law of New Zealand right now, today and I think that's the appropriate way to deal with it. I want to mention what I think are the three main values for the, um for this bill and what it achieves. And the first is this. It reconfirms the freedom for [00:51:00] people to lawfully express their sexuality and to be free from prejudice and legal sanction for doing so, it reconfirms that. Secondly, it avoids the huge disadvantage of a person suffering such a conviction from being required to disclose their convention conviction, conviction for employment purposes and other such purposes. And, uh, of course, there is the whole issue [00:51:30] of criminal history checks as well. A conviction of this kind as we know can hugely limit a person's opportunities for employment. And I think it's worth just reading out, UH, Section 95. And this is what it says. Any criminal record of the expunged conviction or the nondisclosure of any criminal record of the expunged conviction is not a [00:52:00] proper ground for a refusing the convicted person. Any appointment, post status or privilege, or B revoking any appointment, status or privilege held by the convicted person or dismissing the convicted person from any post I. I think that sums it up very well indeed. And the third of those values that I spoke of is this, and it's the most important one of all because it restores self-esteem and enhances [00:52:30] the mental health and the self-worth of the people who suffered those terrible convictions. As we all know, many suicides will have resulted from that, and I hope that Finally, we'll see to an end of that sort of tragic consequence of those evil laws. What the bill itself actually does, uh, for those who are not aware, is that if a person's application is approved under the scheme, then [00:53:00] firstly, the person's criminal record will be amended to ensure the conviction does not appear on a criminal history check for any purpose, uh, in New Zealand and secondly, the person will be entitled to declare that they have no conviction. I think that's incredibly important. It's an absolute right, and it is now in law in New Zealand when this bill passes. [00:53:30] So for all practical purposes within New Zealand, those convictions would be treated as if the person had had never been convicted at all the best possible result. Now, um, the expungement scheme will only apply to specified repealed offences, and those are listed in Section 52. Um, and the scheme will not apply of course, to people convicted of public order offences and or those [00:54:00] involving participants who are under age 16 years, and that's obviously appropriate. The secretary of justice will have responsibility for determining the applications, uh, for the expungement of the specified offences and they will do that in a very simple way on the basis of papers provided without the need for an oral hearing. Except however, that if there are expe uh, exceptional circumstances, then an oral hearing could be held. [00:54:30] But normally you wouldn't expect that an an oral hearing would be necessary. And it's good to see that that can be avoided. And it's also good to see that under Clause 13, any person who unlawfully discloses any expunge offence commits an offence and may be liable to a fine of up to $20,000 and that sort of sanction would be well deserved. And if that actually happened, So it's a very good bill, [00:55:00] um, Mr Speaker One which New Zealand first fully supports. And I want to reiterate also New Zealand first full, uh, support and appreciation for the apology made by the minister. I do hope that with the passing of this legislation, a whole chapter, a whole sad chapter of New Zealand's history can finally be put behind us and that the people who are directly affected will now [00:55:30] feel that they can get rid of that stigma and any record of the offences which they should never have been convicted of in the first place. The passing of this bill will be a proud day for this parliament and a proud day for New Zealand. And I look forward to the final reading, uh, when it eventually comes through. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I called Jono Naylor. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Uh, it's been interesting to listen to the debate as it's been going through so far [00:56:00] this afternoon. And I was thinking back to 1986. Uh, when? Uh, the law, uh, passed to actually, uh, legalise homosexual behaviour. And, uh, in in 1986. I was a Massey University student, 19 year old Massey University student who wore gum boots to lectures. Um, I don't actually recall, uh, what my views were at the time. Actually, I, I Seriously, I remember the issue going on, but I can't actually recall, uh, what my personal views [00:56:30] about it were, Although New Zealand was clearly divided, uh, at the time, Uh, the fact that I can't recall which way I thought about it obviously suggests to me that it wasn't important enough for me personally at that stage to engage with it. Um, I was happy enough to march for this against the Springbok tour. Uh, that got my blood to boil, but sadly, uh, this issue, I guess, didn't get me out of bed to to do something about it. I say that because right now I've got a [00:57:00] 19 year old son who also attends Massey University. Thankfully, he's smart enough that he doesn't wear gum boots to lectures and, uh, is a little more sophisticated than I ever was at that age. But it would be it's It's fantastic. I think that my son has grown up in a society in New Zealand where it's inconceivable to him that actually this behaviour was ever against the law. And I'm grateful that as a society, we've moved on to the point where we can actually understand, [00:57:30] Uh, that, actually this law should never have been in place in the first place. Mr. Speaker, Uh, it was a privilege to be a part of the Justice and Electoral Select Committee to hear submitters on the, uh, petition. Because, Mr Speaker, we heard some stories that would make most people's, uh, blood, uh, curdle. And it was just, uh just horrible to hear [00:58:00] of some of the things that some men were subjected to because of the laws of New Zealand. And, uh, you know, I think as a as a as a nation, we've got to sort of stand up now and say that wasn't OK. It was never OK that they should have ever have been convicted in the first place. And it definitely wasn't OK the way they were treated afterwards. Mr. Speaker, uh, there was that old LV Martin ad back in the eighties as [00:58:30] well, where he said, If something's not put right, I'll put it right because it's the putting right that matters. And, Mr Speaker, we can never, um, eliminate the experiences that those people had at the hands of the New Zealand law. We can't undo it. But, Mr Speaker, we can apologise. We can ensure that it never happens again. And we can ensure by passing this legislation that those convictions that they had uh, no [00:59:00] longer victimise them because they have to keep declaring it. Mr. Speaker, this is a good bill. It is an important apology. I commend it to the house. Uh, and while chances are I won't be here when it goes through the Justice and Electoral Select Committee. I have full confidence in the Parliament of New Zealand and this age and this time to do the right thing. And I commend this bill to the house. Uh, the the next call is a split call. [00:59:30] Mama Davidson. Five minutes. It's incredibly humbling, Mr Speaker, to be here to be able to stand and support today. It's a special day. I will start by acknowledging the petition of Jim. The petition asks that in the matter of those convicted of consensual homosexual acts prior to the Homosexual Law Reform Act 1986 their house a promptly issued an official apology to the convicted and [01:00:00] B pass legislation, which sets out a process for reversing the conviction of those convicted, both living and deceased in a manner which upholds the manner and dignity of those convicted. And that is why we are here today. I had the honour of hosting in my office today, and even he himself admits that it was not purely himself, but a whole lot of people who have campaigned and have [01:00:30] caused us to be here standing on such an important day when we return the mana to people who are just us, they're just our family. They're just our friends. They're just our elders. They're just part of our communities and our homes and our society. I want to acknowledge, in particular a young man who was murdered, uh, for being gay. Uh, when I was a young girl. [01:01:00] Um, homophobia has killed too many people and even less than killing people, it has harmed people in a way that has been traumatic for generations. Actually, I cannot stand today without thinking about a particular man who was killed who for being gay. I think about what he lost in his life. Maybe he might have chosen to be a father with a lover [01:01:30] with a husband. Maybe he might have been an amazing uncle. Maybe he might have been a grandfather who knows because he lost his life. And I send my love to his family because the person who stole his life was my family. Homosexuality, homophobia has taken too many lives, [01:02:00] and today it is an honour to put some money back into the lives that we have taken. I want to acknowledge the people in Maori who have continued to fight to return to our pre colonised notions of what sexuality homosexuality actually is. If we had all [01:02:30] as a world held on to the more inclusive notions that define you starting from your we would all be better off today if we had have all welcomed the less narrow and restricting uh, definitions of who stands with Mana. We would all be better off today. People like Doctor Leonie Ham, doctor [01:03:00] alongside so many others who are working so hard to restore those true meanings of of, of sexuality, of gender and what the definition of family is. There's a lot of healing that hopefully can can be recognised. Today is one important, [01:03:30] possibly small but one important start of the work that we all have to keep doing because the lives damaged by homophobia, the lives damaged by the legalised homophobia that that the House of Representatives upheld for one for far too long. One second of that legislation was too long and we upheld it for far longer than one second Mr Speaker, I look forward to the changes that this action and [01:04:00] many other actions of recognising that those, uh, those people are just ours, that we belong to them and they belong to us. I look forward to the work that we will continue to do together, including expunging the criminal records of people who are just our And I want to finish up by again sending my love to the family of the young man whose life was [01:04:30] taken by my uncle. We lost two men to homophobia. Thank you. Motherfucker. I call Fox five minutes. [01:05:00] Mr. Speaker, today is absolutely a historic day and should be recognised. And you can just tell some days you can just tell when you come into the house some days that it is special that we're doing something good and right and just and I feel like that today, although like, it feels a little bit ironic that while outside we were receiving a petition and letters from thousands [01:05:30] who were sexually abused in state care and we refused to apologise or hold an inquiry. Yet we do it today, but it's still right to do so. Let's celebrate the Justice and Electoral Select Committee. I want to acknowledge the collegiality of our committee. When we received, um when we received, uh the petition worked really hard. There was not one dissenting voice at any time at any time. It was never an issue that [01:06:00] we were going to get there. We just needed to find the way. And so we took it very seriously as we do most of the things in our committee because there are serious issues. We heard from submitters the abhorrent treatment, torture, isolation, beatings that were carried out by our officials after they were arrested. You know, the stigma [01:06:30] and the shame that then, uh, continued to hurt the lives of these men on and on and on and on. And no matter what we think I I it it shocked me today to find out I didn't understand that we made homophobia illegal. It shocked me to think that we did that only just in the sixties. Um, earlier in the term, I got to travel to Gisborne and [01:07:00] to see a group of young people who had, um taken, uh, had received some suicide prevention money. They called themselves Unity. They're a group of young, um, mainly Maori young people who are struggling with their own sexuality and the depression that that caused and uh, their fight to overcome their suicidal thoughts and tendencies while they struggled to understand their sexuality and to have someone find a place, [01:07:30] Have someone listen. They made a documentary. They made a documentary of the history of of, um, homophobic law reform, homosexual law reform in this country. And they documented Fran Wild's fight, the protests, the arrests, uh, the marriage equality bill. And they said, This is what this country has overcome. [01:08:00] And now we're young and we want to, uh, find our place and be accepted and told their own stories. And it was so healing for them to do that. And I felt like a bit of a proud mom having having fought for that that allowed them to do it. And so no matter what your personal feelings with, and I understand that people might have religious ideals that differ, but arresting somebody [01:08:30] for simply loving who they love is not right. And I'm so proud to be part of this government that has agreed to expunge this record and to apologise when we alleviate the stigma, then we alleviate the harm and the hurt and the pain, and people can start to heal we can't make up for the years that have been wasted coming to this point, we can't. [01:09:00] But we can help to lift the burden. And we can help to send a message to our young people of today that actually, you don't have to be ashamed. You can stand proud and you can find support. And you don't have to hide. And you don't have to worry about being arrested. And so, Mr Speaker, the Maori party absolutely support this bill, and we look forward to it coming to the Justice Electoral Select Committee so that we can ensure the passage of it, uh, is [01:09:30] well defined. And the process by which these convictions can be expunged, uh, can be done as simply as possible, though we understand it's gonna be an effort, but we're willing to give it a go. Mr. Speaker Chris Fisher. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Sir, I was born in 1983 and three years later, uh, Fran Wilde and her colleagues in that reforming fourth Labour government led the charge on homosexual law reform. [01:10:00] I have read the of that period. I have read the newspaper articles. I have talked to people who lived through that experience. I've seen the photos of the alleged 800,000 people who signed the petition on the forecourt, presenting it on the forecourt of Parliament. Against that bill, I've seen the language. It is unimaginable in 2017 to look back and think Just, uh, 30 a bit more years ago, New Zealanders could behave [01:10:30] and say those things and that the parliament, uh, could be so divided on what is fundamentally a human rights issue, how far we have come since 1986 but also sir, echoing Grant Robertson's excellent contribution in the House, how far we have still to go and today's motion and this bill is one step on that journey towards equality, respect, dignity and human [01:11:00] rights. The machinery of this law and the proposal are a bit complex, but at its core is a very simple notion. It's the parliament saying these laws should never have been the law. It's the parliament saying those laws were wrong. It's the parliament, saying to the community, Homosexual community, you should not bear the stigma [01:11:30] and the shame any longer, and we are going to put right what was wrong. So at the core of this bill is a very simple notion, a correct notion, a morally right notion. And that's why I'm so strong, so proud to support it. Allied to this bill is an apology. And I There was some debate about whether or not the parliament should do this and whether or not that motion should accompany the bill. I, I think [01:12:00] it was the right thing to do. I, I genuinely do because what's what. What the Parliament is doing is saying sorry to the men who were convicted of offences that criminalised love by two men. The parliament says sorry to the families of men who suffered trauma, despair, some [01:12:30] who even took their lives. The Parliament says sorry to the L GB ITQ community, generally for the shame and the stigma and for the persecution state sanctioned persecution. The Parliament says Sorry and I will freely admit to the house, sir, that I initially when I was confronted with this with this issue, [01:13:00] I did struggle with the notion of, uh, expungement for a couple of reasons. One is as, uh, members have averted to in their speeches the difficulty of trying to unpick and untangle uh, offences that criminalised consenting behaviour that should never have been a crime from behaviour. That should definitely be a crime. Uh, sexual abuse, uh, and and, um, and worse [01:13:30] violent offences. And the evidence from officials was that that was tricky. So that was the first issue. And secondly, I'll freely admit that I struggled with the notion, uh, of trying to rewrite history and whether we like it or not, and and I for one. And I think the parliament agrees those laws should never have been in place. They were That was the law of New Zealand up until homosexual law reform in 1987. And [01:14:00] in some ways it's It's a difficult notion. It's a difficult thing to grasp. But the history should be basically re, you know, revised so that we say that those laws were never actually in place when in fact they were. And and I struggled with that, um, as a concept. But the thing that got me to was were the people who turned up at our committee and gave [01:14:30] heartbreaking evidence and testimony that just made you wanna cry about the ongoing, uh, anger and pain and shame and suffering that they and their families have endured because of these laws. And so I decided essentially that the ongoing pain and harm that has been caused by these laws means that they should go [01:15:00] or means that we should act as if they have never. They were never in place that we need to expunge them and expunge those records from history. And the parliament has done this before. That's the other thing. This is not some. This is reasonably novel, but it's not completely novel. The parliament has done this before, and we need to do it again. Parliament has done this before in relation to, uh, a narrow niche niche class [01:15:30] of people, uh, forget the actual legislation. But it's from the early two thousands to do with, uh, war crime to do with, um military offences in the early two thousands. The Parliament has done this before and we can do it again. We can untangle the offences that genuinely should never have been crimes and those offences uh, that should and still remain crimes. But we can do that at the same time as saying to [01:16:00] homosexual community what the what was in place prior to 1987 was wrong. It was a moral. They were inhumane. And the Parliament says sorry to you for those laws. I commend this bill to the house. Um, it's my pleasure as a member of the Justice and Electoral Select Committee [01:16:30] to speak on this, the criminal records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Bill. And this is its first reading. Uh, I particularly want to start with an acknowledgement of a colleague who's no longer here. And that is Kevin Hague, who A year ago today presented the petition of dim in 2111 others. That is, uh, my colleague Davidson read out earlier, asked for [01:17:00] uh uh, uh Ask this house to promptly issue an official apology to those convicted and secondly, uh, to pass legislation which sets out a process for reversing the convictions of those convicted, both living or deceased, in a manner which upholds the manner and dignity of those convicted. Wow. So that started, uh, that process started for, uh, and all those involved in collecting those signatures in December, uh, [01:17:30] 2014, and I think we should put it into a global context. actually, uh, because in 2013 by royal pardon, Alan Turing, uh, was given a pardon for, uh, gross and decency and that gross indecency, uh, was part of the legislation, uh, that we inherited, uh, in our country, And it started a process, uh, in the UK that actually, on the [01:18:00] 31st of January this year saw more than 15,000, uh, UK men who were convicted of gross and indecency Having those offences, uh, expunged. And what that led to around the world were jurisdictions, uh, and our community in Australia and Canada and Germany all over the world actually seeking, uh, the same recourse that had been given to Alan Turing, [01:18:30] uh, given to him because of his contribution to the World War Two, uh, events. Uh, and because of his, I guess service to the country he was given a pardon. Um, when I look at the convictions in New Zealand, uh, actually, under the offences against the person act of 18 67 if you were convicted, you could spend your whole life in prison, uh, for, [01:19:00] uh, committing gross indecency. Uh, that was then altered in 18 93. Where if you were convicted of sodomy. It was punishable by life imprisonment with hard labour labour. Uh, but the interesting thing is that indecency between males also, uh, provided an opportunity for us to be flogged and whipped. And I say that because in a this year, we've had men who were flogged and whipped because they were caught [01:19:30] having sex. And so, you know, we've moved a long way to where we are today. We're in 1986. Uh, under the Homosexual Law Reform Act, we discriminated male, same sex, consensual intercourse. But what we also did, uh, was equalise the age and we made us equal, uh, to other New Zealanders, um, in highlighting, uh, Kevin's involvement in the petition with [01:20:00] I also want to, um, talk about some of the things that he talked about at the time. And he said that, um, so he was the only MP who could have been convicted who was in the house. And I acknowledge my colleague Grant Robertson, who's, um, he's too young, but he's sitting beside me now, But he said that the impact of of those, um, who were caught was massive. They lost their jobs. They lost their houses, they lost their families. A lot of them were isolated. [01:20:30] And you can imagine, uh, how that disposition then contributed to how most of them live the rest of their lives in poverty as drug alcohol addicted people, Uh, depressed people. And some of them did, uh, commit suicide. But the one thing that struck me with what Kevin shared was, um, when they were convicted, uh, the private lives were read out in a summary [01:21:00] of effects in courts and on sentence and on and on sentencing. Their names were published in the local newspaper for all to see, so they were altered. So it wasn't a private thing that happened, actually was an incredibly public thing to happen. And for a lot of them, they did. They lost their entire family community network. Which is why a lot of our fled to Australia to start a new life. [01:21:30] I also wanted to highlight, uh, where I think this bill emanated from. Because Minister Adams, when the petition was presented, uh, to the house initially stated that it could require a case by case investigation and that it could be too difficult, but what she also said was that she would wait for our justice and Electoral, uh, select committee to consider the petition before she made any decision and what I would like [01:22:00] to acknowledge. Uh, my colleague on the Justice and Electoral Select Committee, who are members of the government. So I want to acknowledge, Sarah, do our chair. I want to acknowledge Chris Bishop. I want to acknowledge Paul Foster Bell. I want to acknowledge John O'Neil, and I want to acknowledge Maureen and also Mama Fox, because you obviously kept the minister breast with what was happening before the select committee in terms of the petition. And I actually think that's what drove her and the government to [01:22:30] bring in this piece of legislation to the House. And it also says something to me about the process of this house and the value of petitions and the process that happens in select committees to, you know, to lead to an output such as a piece of legislation which is in effect going to, uh, implement everything that the petition asked for. And that is an incredibly valuable thing. And I think we should all cherish the moment [01:23:00] because it says our democracy works. You know, we've all contributed to this bill being here today on the backs of our ancestors, all those who have come before us. And so I'm going to take an opportunity because we're going to also, uh, very soon be, uh, talking about another very important piece of legislation and what I want to highlight in the oranga tamariki legislation that we're about to debate. And it's wonderful that the minister is in the house at the [01:23:30] moment is that, uh, under the Oranga tamariki legislation, we have recognised the child's right Children young person's right to their sexual orientation and gender identity. And I think that's an incredibly profound thing. And I just want to read a quote from Lord McNally talking about Alan Turing's royal pardon. And I quote the law at the time, required a prosecution. And as such, long standing policy has been accept that [01:24:00] such convictions took place. And rather than trying to alter the historical context and to put right what cannot be put right, ensure ensure instead that we never again return to those times. And so the reason I highlight that minister is because Children in care now have the right to their sexual orientation and gender identity. But what that then means for us and for the public service in the public sector [01:24:30] is that those Children who are may be intersex and may be trans. They deserve access to health services that are going to ensure that their identity is supported, that they shouldn't have to face and return two times where they are discriminated against, where they're persecuted, where actually they're invisible. And that's why, as a member of our cross party Rainbow Group, [01:25:00] we've been fighting for visibility in the education sector, which is why we've said to er, why aren't you specifically looking at the well-being of our LGBTI Q when you go to our high schools? That's why we've highlighted in the health sector. And I've got a meeting, uh, with Minister Coleman coming up that our intersex Children their health needs aren't being met, that our Trans Children, their health needs aren't being met. And so for me, that's what [01:25:30] this provides. It provides now another platform where we continue to springboard for, uh so this is never the end. I mean, for me, it's always like, you know, struggle without end because there are always discriminations, uh, in our law and in our system that needs to be addressed and rectified. So today is an incredibly special day. Uh, I also want to commend the government for the apology. [01:26:00] Uh, Anne King, uh, highlighted that we've done this previously with the Chinese community and with the Samoan community. And so it's appropriate today that we also acknowledge that our LGBTI Q, our homosexual community and a in New Zealand deserve an apology from the state. Because we we're not criminals. We never were. And we never should have been Kilda. [01:26:30] The question is that the criminal records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences Bill be now read a first time. Those of that opinion will say I to the contrary. No, the eyes have it. Criminal records, expungement of convictions, Historical homosexual offences Bill first reading The question now is that the bill be [01:27:00] considered by the Justice and Electoral Committee. Those of that opinion will say I to the contrary know the eyes have it. The question now is that this house apologise to those homosexual New Zealanders who were convicted for consensual adult activity and recognise the tremendous hurt and suffering. Those men and their families have gone through and the continued effects convictions [01:27:30] have had on them. Those of that opinion will say I to the contrary Opinion will say no. The eyes have it. I, uh, call on government orders of the day number three and four.
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