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My name is John Kelly. Um, I was married for probably 15 years. We had three daughters, one of whom is in the room with me today. She's the youngest of three. Marriage broke up many years ago, and I brought up the Children on my own without without being involved in any other in any other women. John, when you were growing up, did you have any sense of your homosexuality? [00:00:30] Yes. I, I think when I was 13 or 14, I I presumed I was gay without knowing what the term was. Yes. My mother want some food? She found some. I think they were nudist magazines, which is all available many years ago under the mattress. Why? I hid them under the mattress. I'm not quite sure. Mothers in those days used to turn mattresses over once a week. All she did was place them on the pillow. So nothing was ever said to me by my parents. [00:01:00] When did you first have words to describe kind of what you were feeling? I It's interesting. I don't I don't know. Um I knew I knew what I was and what I wanted from a from that age. from 13 14 or whatever it was. You didn't articulate those those days. I didn't just It was just just the way life was when you go on with it. [00:01:30] Did anybody did anybody have conversations about being gay or make comments about gay people in any way? Was that word used then? No, I don't I don't think so. I was working in a in a department store in Wellington and I got seduced, I suppose, of the term by two guys who were working there. One of them we used to see from the double decker tram on the way to college. [00:02:00] And because he was a bit flamboyant, well, he had an umbrella which men didn't carry in those days. And there was a few cat courts on the top of the the tram, which I kept quiet. Well, of course, that's the only thing that happened then. So people are identifying other people as different in some way, or boys were. So I'm Emma and I'm the youngest of dad's Children, [00:02:30] and Dad raised us here on the North Shore, and I, my sister, Patria and I used to always joke that Dad was the only good heterosexual man. We knew he could sew. He cooked. He talked to us about periods and all those things. You know, he he was both mother and father to us. And, um, we just always thought he was a great example of what a heterosexual [00:03:00] man could be. Yeah. And then and then what do you want to talk about? Oh, well, something I was thinking about since we were going to do this interview is how When I started university at about 17, I started hanging out at women's space. Do you remember? Nearly all my friends are lesbians, and I used to have all these amazing discussions with them about relationships and feminism, and [00:03:30] I used to say, I can still be a feminist and be with a man. But I also had relationships with women at that time, and we used to talk about that. Do you remember? Do you remember I told you about walking down the street, holding hands with Sally and getting hassled, and I came home, and I was just astounded because I walked down the road holding hands with men all the time and no one had ever seen a thing and suddenly it was different and I was so naive. I [00:04:00] was on K Road. Why would anyone hassle us? And I remember coming home and being outraged and, you know, talking to you. And we talked quite a lot about sexuality at that time. I can't remember specifically, but one of the women you worked with was at Rea's house When I brought Graham round this this man was a became my partner, fairly flamboyant, and I realised in the very early stages that there was no way this relationship was going to be [00:04:30] hidden. And in fact, your friend made a comment after we left. She said, Is your dad gay? And I said, It looks like it and that was the end of the conversation and she was very excited because she was an adamant lesbian. There must have been an interesting discussion after we left then because was there. Sally didn't say it in front of Patria, but Patria and I definitely had conversations afterwards. Dad's got a boyfriend. [00:05:00] What's going on? Isn't this exciting? I can't remember specifically saying anything to you guys, but I must have done presumably. Do you want me to tell the story of you coming out to me when I was working in the fairy shop in Birkenhead in High Point in the fairy shop and you came in and it must have been a few days after we'd met Graham. And you said, um, I'm just here to tell you I'm a fairy because we're in the fairy shop. [00:05:30] And then you kicked up your heel in a joking manner and you walked out and I couldn't even follow you because I was working. And I just thought it was lovely. And I was terribly happy that you came out. I just thought that was the best thing ever. Yes, Patria was quite nice, too. Not everybody in the family was. But that didn't last very long. Well, I don't remember the very sharp story. And what about friends? There was no [00:06:00] problem there at all. I told people, um, and no hassle. I didn't lose any friends over it. Chris, in fact, was, um he was annoyed because I'd been hiding it from him all these years. But he was He was great. Yes. And Chris is, uh, one of our Well, he was one of dad's best friends. He died last year. Yeah, but you and he used to have funny conversations, didn't [00:06:30] you? Because of words like straight and, well, he he used to object to the word straight because it implied that the we we guys were bent. I pointed out that it was wasn't his choice. It was our our our way of putting it. So we'd have to put up a with you calling him straight? Well, yes. Yeah, I'd introduce him as my straight mate. I wouldn't mind, [00:07:00] Sean just going back a wee bit. Why? Why did you get married? Um, it was it was the right thing to do. At that time. It was the woman I wanted to get married to. I'd say it's a lovely thing. I couldn't have done it if I had known what I would have done otherwise, I wouldn't have had Children, of course. But it it was, um I didn't have any parental pressure. In fact, um, I proposed to my wife and we [00:07:30] got married the following Friday, and I almost forgot to tell my parents because it was just the thing we were doing. And you know, that whole marriage marriage thing was was far beyond me at that time. I wouldn't. Wasn't interested in that at all. What do you mean? You mean like having a big ceremony and having other family involved just didn't occur to you that you wanted to do anything like that? You just hands on someone. And you were You were [00:08:00] part of the same friendship circle. How did you meet? How do we meet? We met at the Oh, gosh. We met at a a gay party, actually. Oddly enough, we had mutual mutual friends. Wasn't at the end of six o'clock closing. It wasn't a party the day at the end of me than me. Yes. A group of us had been to the Great Northern Hotel to celebrate six o'clock raising. We went to a party afterwards, [00:08:30] was there And that's how you met? Yes, And it was love at first sight. Yeah, no, it was eased into, I think. And some of your mutual friends have stayed your mutual friends for the rest of your lives, haven't they? Even beyond the end of the marriage and yeah. No, I didn't lose any friends through either through marriage or through, um, the end of marriage? No. [00:09:00] When you were married, did you find that you were hiding your homosexuality? Or was it just kind of out in the open? No, it was hidden It totally hidden. The one I was married. Um, Joan knew I was gay when I was married because I told her before we were married. But like all woman, she thought she'd kill me. I think Can you describe what that's like, Kind of living, that [00:09:30] it's not really a double life, but actually outwardly being kind of heterosexual and and being homosexual at the same time? Well, it it wasn't difficult because you couldn't do anything about it. There was no, there's no way. When I was younger, you could you could that I could say that I was homosexual. It was illegal. Immoral wasn't happening at the time. Um, [00:10:00] you're not stoic about it, but you just live your life. Your life was what it was. That side of it was there. This side was here, and that's what you did because you had no choice. It wasn't difficult to do because you did it. You've always one of the things I've always thought about. You Is that you? You you You've made quite strong statements about you. Just get on with what you've [00:10:30] got. You don't regret and you don't live in the past and you just get on with it. Is that part of it for you? It just This is what I got. This is the hand I've been dealt, and I'll just get on with it. And even though I didn't know where that sort of thinking was coming from, I always found it quite helpful to to think What's the point in regretting anything? Or but did you have friends who are sort of more out than you at that time? Well, you met all my friends, [00:11:00] people like Gordon and Ray. So people who never married they were my friends before I was married. And they were friends during my marriage and they were still friends. And no one ever gave you her time. No, not ever. No. And And people like Ryan Gordon always seem to enjoy having us kids around. And they they always gave us Christmas cards and birthday cards. And you call them uncle, I think, [00:11:30] and they were just sort of part of the broader family. Yes. So I was probably lucky to have any friends like that, I guess. I think so. And and I didn't know they were gay when I was younger. They were just, you know, I wouldn't have cared if I knew they were just Uncle Ray and Uncle Warden who turned up for birthday parties and sent us cards at Christmas time. So why do you think there was a need to come out later on to Emma? I mean, [00:12:00] if if you were kind of, um Well, I think I thought I I thought I was explaining that before, with with the the friend I had, Then I had he was He was quite flamboyant, obviously gay. And if I was walking down somewhere with him, it would be fairly obvious. I would imagine that we would have been a couple. So I thought there was no point in this. And my thinking about him was that, um there was no point in me being embarrassed [00:12:30] by him because that's the way he was. So I wasn't gonna hide it any any further, and we'd all moved out of home by then. And was that part of your thinking that you didn't have to protect us from judgments. No, probably not again. It's just just what? You're what you're doing at the time. I don't think I thought of that. Did the North Shore feel like a place where people were out to [00:13:00] you? Did you know many gay people on the north Shore? I don't think I know any. Didn't know any? No. Do you find it's hard to talk about kind of gay issues or homosexuality? No details? Yes, in front of my Children. Yes, but other other. Otherwise no, not at all. So it depends. It depends on context then, doesn't it? It depends on who you who You're with what you're saying, What you're not because something that struck [00:13:30] me and you can tell me that I'm wrong is that, um you are more relaxed about talking about gay things on the South Shore than the North Shore. Oh, why is that? Because that's where all the events are. The events aren't here. Your mates aren't here. No need no need to talk about such things over here. In that case, it always seems to me like it. It's a bit different here because I've always I've always felt this is quite a repressive community. No, I don't think that at [00:14:00] all that interesting. I suppose everyone I know lives over the shore over the other side of the bridge. Yeah, that's right. Apart from Chris, Impressive on that one. well, I've always felt the North Shore was quite conservative. Um, and it feels when I'm down here like I'm in a kind of little country town where everyone knows each other's business. Maybe you just feel that way about where you grow up. So, John, can you tell me about raising Children by yourself [00:14:30] and the kind of values you try to impart? We probably should ask Emma that what her values are would be easier. But, um, the fact that girls was was interesting for a start because I'm not a girl, and I had to deal with with with females and female things, I don't know what values I imparted. I think that I I tried to make them honest, to be honest, [00:15:00] trying to teach them to be gardens and cooks. I'm not sure I work with all them. Um, see, I obviously don't Don't don't compartmentalise things. I just as as we've said before, I get on and do things without saying this is this is what I'm doing. This is what I'm going to make my try and make my my daughters do. So it's a bit hard to for me to answer that question. Another way of looking at it would be to say, What [00:15:30] are the values that you admire and other people? What are the things that ah, I think honesty is always the is is always the main thing. Um, what do you like caring for caring for people? Um, not not not not dumping on others. Um, what are you gonna say? We're gonna have So I was just gonna say, is there anything about me that you [00:16:00] that you admire? That might have been something to do with how I was raised? Do you think I don't know? You're the one academic of the family. Must have come for me somewhere. Mhm. No, no. I. I was thinking about, um when things would happen. Say at school, say I'd get a hard time at school. I remember sometimes the boys would [00:16:30] hassle me at school and I'd come home and I'd burst into tears and you'd always give me a cuddle, And you'd always make me feel better. And then you say, OK, what are you going to say? Back to them and we'd sort something out and it would be something silly. It'll be some, you know, kind of line. But what you did was make me feel that I was OK. And then that I could speak back, not walk away, not pretend it wasn't happening. But speak back. And I think that's been helpful to me. But I think sometimes I probably [00:17:00] have done it a little too much. But I always felt that you encouraged us to to speak our minds. And it's important when you're a girl because you can easily get sucked into thinking you have to be passive. I never got that impression from you. No, um, you said you weren't weren't none of you? None of you are passive. Um, do you? Do you remember, [00:17:30] um, telling me a story about going into farmers when they had a sale as a father? Um, yes, I do. Yeah, that was fairly early in the well, I. I had to do things like because I didn't have a lot of money I had to learn to sow. And there was an occasion when all my girls ran out of knickers. So I farmers had to say when farmers was up on Hobson Street, they had a big, big building there. So I went in there [00:18:00] thinking I could discreetly ask a salesperson for some pairs of panties for my Children. But instead of that, there's a huge bins with all these women scrabbling in their life, stood there and thought they're gonna think I'm the worst pervert here. However, I thought, maybe this I've got to do it. So I dived in with all these women and picked out all the the nickers I wanted, and I sort of thought I never looked back since then, and I could do anything that [00:18:30] was was slightly odd concerning my daughters. So there you go. It was probably a turning point. The incident that was the turning point in your life. And the other thing I'm thinking about about values is how we had an open house at road. So Friday nights everyone turned up at our house. It was beautifully sight of that house because people you know, friends [00:19:00] would drive past it. And yes, we did. It was nice People would call in in passing. Just doesn't seem to happen a lot these days. You never know who'd be there, but it would always be you'd. And if it was winter, you had the fire on and we'd have toast in front of the fire. And I remember other people commenting on how lovely it was and how unusual it was to just turn up at someone's house. And they feed you and sit down for an hour, chat [00:19:30] and come around on Friday nights for a glass of wine. And one of them would invariably fall asleep in front of the fire. And the other one will keep chatting. Yeah, and those are lovely memories for me. We had some interesting birthdays, too, didn't we? The pink table cloth. I can't remember the pink and we had. Was it one of your birthdays [00:20:00] up at Snell's Beach? We We We were given access to a batch up there. It was a rainy day on Emma's birthday, and we piled into the little rowing boat with a birthday cake, candles and umbrella. Yeah, rode out on the bay and sang Happy birthday and do the candles out. We did lots of lovely and unusual memories like that. Yeah, I never felt like we were, like, the other families, [00:20:30] and I never had a problem with it. It was always a good thing. Well, I, I think I don't know whether all men have have a female side. I'm not sure I must have had one to be able to cope with bringing up the pears. Even if it didn't show. It must have been there. Why is it a female side? The natural side? Yeah, Quite warm. And hm? I hope all men have it, But I'm not sure that all men feel they're able to express [00:21:00] it. Yeah. Did you have any relationships throughout Once the marriage had ended? Did you have any relationships up until you kind of came out? Yes. Um, you're willing to talk about in front of me? I block my ears. Well, no, no, because they they were with women. Anyway, as you as you may record them. Um, [00:21:30] was it was that Was that what your question was asking? Well, with them in all of them. Not not any I had. I had I had an affair. I had two affairs. I suppose that's the way you put it with with women? Yes. And if if anything occurred with me and it obviously hasn't stuck in my mind, so they wouldn't they certainly wouldn't be regarded as a fears. No, you don't have to answer this question, but I want to ask because I know when the saunas and [00:22:00] things opened. I mean, did you visit places like that or do you not want to say I was OK? But after you're married after, uh, yes. And with their with their magazines and things. You mentioned the nudist magazine from when you were a kid. I've never heard about nudist magazines before. Were they like, Oh, they were natural naturist magazines. I think I can remember Lynn. Hi. When? When we still married, um, she came around with her husband and we had Joan [00:22:30] and I had a couple of these magazines and Lynn looked through them and her eyes got bigger and bigger. And she said to her husband, You told me that once you've seen one, you'd seen them all. But that's not true. That's great. When did when did out Magazine start? Do you know I have no idea. Um, no, I don't I. I wouldn't know what year it started. It's been around for a long time, but you'd seen magazines and you knew they were around [00:23:00] magazines. I must have done this. Yes. Did you find the people you were meeting in Saunas? Um, were coming from some of the backgrounds like that. They had been married or were currently married. Well, you're talking about recently now. Not not. You know, this is this is not not not Not way back. There are a lot of married people. And so yes, Still married, as far as I can tell you. Do you talk about it? [00:23:30] Do you know, because of rings, or how do you know? Would you just know? I suppose it must must be discussed somewhere along the line. Do you reckon the climate has changed considerably in terms of, um, acceptance? People, over time, you've only got to go past or or in one of the family bar or something like that up in road and half [00:24:00] the people in there are straight anyway, So it was a good mixture these days, which is a lovely thing. I think. I'm sure there are exclusive gay places besides saunas that guys can go to. But, um, I don't is one of them, isn't it? But it's a good mix these days. Was Was all the family accepted? Yes, my my brother in Sydney has no problem [00:24:30] with it. I don't know about my sister in South Africa, because she knows we've never discussed it. I don't know, but in Australia and no, no problem, I I've been I've been very lucky that no one no one has hassled me. No one has given me any hard time, and no friends have left because of it, either. Looking in from your perspective, Emma, when Dad comes into the shop and kind of comes out, how how do you feel? [00:25:00] Well, I was really excited, you know, as I've said, I was hanging out at women's space a lot at that time and, um, having a lot of conversations with people about being gay, being straight, being feminist, being not feminist and all these things. And so I just thought it was I thought it was pretty cool. I thought, Oh, my dad's not a conservative heterosexual man from the North Shore after all. But, you know, I was 21 and I don't I guess my where I was was [00:25:30] quite a different place, and it just didn't seem to be a big deal. Of course, my friends thought it was great. And my friends who wondered if I was a lesbian, I think probably thought, Oh, well, maybe it runs in the family. I don't know, but yeah, it was never It was never a thing for me. And I think it was I think it was my first time to see Dad, as is a separate person, not just my dad, but a human who had a life beyond the looking after of me. Yeah, I think [00:26:00] that was a big part. And it was so exciting to see Dad in a relationship because I hadn't seen you in a relationship either. So for me, that was cool, too. Yeah, And even though that relationship didn't, you know, didn't work out, Um, he was a good talker. And so we would have conversations that we hadn't had before. And you guys, you know, went off and did your thing and I thought it was exciting. [00:26:30] My other daughter was pleased for various reasons because she eventually came out herself and she was able to do that because I had. Well, I'm not quite sure whether she she had known she was gay when I did, whether that came later, where she was supportive because she was. Yeah, my memory is when she [00:27:00] was younger, she tried to talk about it being gay, and we sort of shut the conversation down. That's her memory, too, of saying when she was younger. I'm gay and they're saying, No, you're not in something silly like that And that was the end of the conversation. So there was a bit of Oh, Dad's been gay all this time. He didn't talk about it with me, but then she got over it. I mean, you guys, you've always said that you two were quite similar and they used to rub each other in the up in the wrong way. But But now you guys get along very well. [00:27:30] It's been interesting to see your relationship change, too. Over time. I don't see you as similar, but you've always said some things about who were similar to you. Interesting, but, um, she used to say when she was little, she used to say, when I grew up to be a man and used to think of just just something that kids say And now she's a mechanic. No, she's [00:28:00] not. She's a welder. We get it right. So, John, how did you feel when you know your daughter was coming out? I mean, did you expect your Children potentially to be gay or lesbian? No, not in the slightest. I was. I was surprised I was a bit unhappy for her, actually, because of that, Uh, it doesn't necessarily an easy road to go [00:28:30] down, but I guess that didn't last long. But she's She's quite content with herself now, So it's nice. I remember her saying that when she initially said at 14 she thought she was gay. She remembers you saying, It's too hard, But I don't even remember her telling me that. Yeah, interesting. That's my memory of it. I. I feel a bit bad because I'm quoting someone else. But she said, That's why you see that it's too hard, [00:29:00] which makes sense of what you just said that you could see it as a tough road, but maybe it's a different time now. And do you feel like you have something in common with her that you didn't have before once she came out? No. No. Les Lesbians are different to gay people now. That's an interesting conversation. Are we going there? No, I'd I'd, um No. The only thing I haven't in [00:29:30] common with with her is that she is my daughter, Same as you are. I don't think there's an extra bond because she's gay. Not at all. So do you. Do you see people in terms of sexuality? You know how some people box people into gay or straight? Do you see people in that way? No, I don't. No, I don't. And even even big people. I don't see as big people or little people as little people. Someone says, Oh, she's very short. And I think God. So she is. It doesn't that doesn't [00:30:00] really register on my radar. So no, I feel a bit like that, too. And I'm always a bit bewildered by how people put people in. Oh, he's gay. Oh, that makes sense. I didn't quite understand that conversation. Maybe that's because of the way we've grown up. Well, let's go back and and just cover that gay and lesbian difference. What? What? What do you think? I knew I shouldn't have said that. Um, I, I don't I don't [00:30:30] know. I don't know what I meant by it. Now, Um, what was the context in which I see it. So you you, you said, is lesbian. So she's you know, that being lesbian is different from being a gay man. So you're talking about gender difference. Are you talking about being a woman or being a man? I think I think I'm just talking about gender differences. Yes, Gay women do seem to lead different lives to that which gay [00:31:00] men do. And it's always It's always a bit sad to me that there's not a lot of, um what do you call it? Cross crossover between the I don't mean sexually crossover in verbally. Often two don't mix. I suppose that's what I'm talking about with the difference. I don't know why that is. It seems a shame to me. I was thinking about that in terms of the Mates and Lovers Book this morning, which its [00:31:30] subtitle is the history of gay New Zealand, and I immediately thought, It's not the history of gay New Zealand. It's the history of gay male New Zealand. And I wonder as a woman, if sometimes in the conversations about being gay women feel they're left out of them of those conversations sometimes. Well, I suppose if you're going by, Say, Express magazine, there's more usually more articles on on on and about men [00:32:00] than there are about women. But that's possible because I think the the editors are male. Editor of Express has been a woman for a while. Well, perhaps the content has changed, and there's definitely been rows about that. I know there's been conversations about why is this male focused? And when I used to do the BFM show that you used to listen to So I used to do, um, the girl's own show with Frankie Hill back in the day and and the pink was on after us and the boys [00:32:30] who did in the pink were fun and the girls were serious and slightly scary. And really, it did feel like that because, um, when there was a BFM function, the boys always got invited. We didn't get invited with the other DJ S to the functions, I thought, Why is that it it in my experience of being a feminist, um, I find that women are often perceived as being sort of a bit serious and do but men are fun. Do you know what [00:33:00] I mean? Sort of. There's a playfulness in the understanding what it is to be a gay man, Perhaps. Well, that's the stereotype that gets presented. Well, those guys around that programme were were very flamboyantly gay were, and they were fun. Camp is the word which a lot of gay men are not. Yeah, yeah, And I guess you know, Frankie and I were a bit more political, but it did feel like there was a gender divide there, you know? [00:33:30] And I guess it was called girls Own Show. So it wasn't necessarily a gay show, But, you know, in the pink was two boys doing a a sort of a gay show. But, you know, Frankie was a very a woman. Everyone knew who Frankie Hill was, and we would have a lot of I mean, I remember having an who was running hero parade on at the time as a guest. And, um, Anne said on the radio, Bisexuals shouldn't be allowed in the hero parade. [00:34:00] And Frankie turned off my microphone before she hoed into Anne. It was really, really interesting. And, you know, so we have these quite big political discussions. I don't know if they happen in the pit, but I think we were seen as the a little bit too hard core. I don't know. Mhm. Were you ever afraid John of being seen as that kind of stereotypical flamboyant gay man? No. So I never have been So it's never bothered me. [00:34:30] Even when I go into a fairy shop and keep my heels up the water. That would have been, um, not typical behaviour on my behalf. Do you? Do you feel like gay men who are very flamboyant are quite different from you? Do you think? Well, they're different people to me, aren't they? They're different types of persons. You don't feel that the way other gay people behave has any effect on how people might see you? [00:35:00] Yes, there's the stereotypes, uh, or used to be perceived as what gay people were, but I don't think that happens now. I mean, the big the big drag queens are big drag queens. They're not typical gay people, and I hope they're not perceived as typical gay people. I've been having an interesting conversation with people about this lately with the marriage amendment bill [00:35:30] because a lot of my gay friends don't agree with the marriage amendment bill. They think everyone should be free to make choices. But the main the the so-called mainstreaming of gay culture for some people is not considered a good thing. A Well, beings talks about in an interview that he's done that, um, he feels like some people like the transgenders and the and the, um, drag queens have been sidelined by the mainstreaming of gay culture. And I found that a very interesting [00:36:00] conversation. But I guess, you know, we can't all be worried about everybody all the time. Can we? No. The, uh, that that marriage bill is polarising. A lot of a lot of gay people, not not strongly, but, um, some want to get married and some don't and I think it should be an individual choice. Have your friends been talking about it much? No might know. Even those who have been together for a while. They have no intention [00:36:30] of getting married. They don't. They don't see the need. I guess mainly older people. So there might be a difference there. Young people might feel differently. Do you remember the conversation that we had when, um, Jay and I decided to have a civil union? So Jay's a male, and we've been we had our civil union seven years ago or something. And it was [00:37:00] just after the civil Civil Union bill came in and we wanted to celebrate it. And I asked him, and he told the story at the ceremony that I asked him, Will you civil union, me, not. Will you marry me? Well, we were sitting in the bath and and and it wasn't supposed to be how I proposed, but that's just what happened. But when I sat you down and said, We're having a civil union, I remember you saying, Why a civil union? You're a heterosexual couple. Do you remember the conversation? And [00:37:30] I said, because we want to celebrate this and I never wanted to have a a traditional marriage and and we had quite a conversation before you came around. Oh, yeah. OK, I can see why. Why You would want to do this. And we had that conversation with everybody I seem to remember You You telling me at one point that you were doing it to support the fact that I was gay as well that we that we were a family with gay and straight members, and I didn't feel comfortable having a ceremony that nobody else [00:38:00] could. Yeah. And you've defended me lately in a conversation at an art gallery with a friend of mine who was saying, I don't know why Emma had a civil union. Do you remember? And you explained to him all the reasons why very eloquently, John, do you feel part of a larger rainbow community or do you see your sophomore as just an individual? Inside community? Generally, [00:38:30] I'm part of a part of a community. Yes, I think bit of rainbow. I mean, do you do you sense, like, I mean, when you talk about, say, like, lesbians and transgender, do you Do you feel that you have any kind of community bond with simply because of their sexuality or, uh, no, not really. I. I suppose I think in terms of the of the the gay friends I have is is my community. Well, I support I do support gay activities where I can if I can afford to. [00:39:00] But, um, coming back to what we were saying before, lesbians don't seem to take part in those in those same activities to the same extent. Which is a shame. What about something like the big gay out, which you always go to that and you go with your mates and everybody's there? Does it feel like you're all a big, happy community? No, not [00:39:30] at all. But it's it's one place you can. You can walk around holding a fella's hand without without being embarrassed by it, which is quite nice. Don't ask and the, um, return of the return of, Well, it's not called hero anymore. The Pride parade. But the return of that. We've had some conversations about that lately, too, haven't we about how big it was this year and you went along? Yes, it was very restrained this year, compared with some of the ones [00:40:00] that that happened a few years ago. No lesbians whipping each other on a float, for example, did you think that was a good thing or a bad thing? I. I didn't. I just I just accepted it as a parade this time, I hope, um, next time, there will be a little more, um, or less less feathers and a little more seriousness. Perhaps. Put it that way. What kind of I don't know, just a bit more than than what was. What was shown in this particular [00:40:30] were the gay gardeners there this year. The gay gardeners were a highlight for me, um, years ago at the hero parade and their bee outfits throwing buzz bars to the crowd. And Uncle Ray was one of those gay gardeners. I remember whatever the broadcaster's name is. When she saw that she was, she was broadcasting about the parade. She saw the gay, um, gardeners float and she said gay gardeners. [00:41:00] It was quite extraordinary. Why shouldn't gays be gardeners? It's very weird. And you've been part of the gay gunner, or you were for a long time, weren't you? I'm not sure. What have you got any particular clubs you go to that you want to discuss? Is that private? As the only one I go to is the Sunday pub, and I think that building that block is being [00:41:30] raised for something else so that that might be the last night tonight, and that's been going for a long time for many years in various different venues. Long before I I heard of it. It's been going probably 20 odd years, I suppose. At least yes, there's a picture and mates and lovers of of, I think the at the what was called the Aquarius Club. But I don't know if it was the same one. And is it all guys? [00:42:00] Yes, older guys, younger guys, mainly, mainly older guys. And if if there are young guys there, they're usually Asians. You said a bit earlier about, um, holding hands. And for a lot of, um, gay people holding hands in public is is a big step, you know, being demonstrative. And I'm just wondering, within the family circle, how demonstrative are you in terms of like showing Emma, you know, holding a guy's hand or kissing [00:42:30] or whatever, How how does that work? You have to remind me, actually, because you only you would have only seen the ground. Yeah, and although you've always been a hugger and a kisser with us. And what we always held hands with you. I haven't ever seen you hold hands with a man, or I know Graham and used to cuddle a bit, but I think you're always quite reticent in front of us. I always thought, um, that's when I saw the stoic Kiwi bloke in you, actually, [00:43:00] because you didn't, you know, show that kind of affection in front of us. Well, all those all those years of of, of hiding it, I suppose they they come to afford it. And so how you live your life and do you get used to just not doing it? So what's it like when you do that? Good stuff should have more of them. Oh, when you when you [00:43:30] came home from the gay out to our house, you had a sparkle in your eye. You were in a mischievous mood with your mates and you're talking about holding hands And I thought, How delightful. And I also thought I cannot imagine not being able to hold hands with whoever I want and how privileged I am with Jay. It's also interesting that holding hands in the public is one thing, but holding hands just in a family [00:44:00] situation is another thing. And you think that holding hands in a family situation might be easier. But in some ways it's harder when it's people that you know really well, it depends on where you'd be. I mean, why would you anyway? And if you're sitting down having a cuddle, perhaps that would be about it. I think J and I whole teams No, I'm talking about I'm talking about gay couple, right? Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that actually [00:44:30] like for a gay couple. It's very much more a conscious decision we have to do. You know, we have to hold hands. Where for a heterosexual couple, it's they don't even necessarily think about it. It just is so natural. It's the other way around. A gay couple. We've got to think we can't hold hands because we're in public. We can't do it. So that's that's the conscious decision. Not that you want to do it somewhere. You did want to do it, but you can't this two generations speaking [00:45:00] about their experiences because I, I wonder if you have you two have different experiences. Sorry, I'm bringing Gareth into the interview, but But it is interesting, isn't it, that you should have different, different senses of that? Perhaps my ripe old age having having lived a good part of my life under the radar as it was, You just continue with that lifestyle, I think to a certain extent, you know, change your habits overnight. [00:45:30] Speaking of age, I was speaking to someone yesterday, uh, a couple that they were I was talking about, you know, Well, what is it like for an older lesbian couple holding hands? Um, and they were saying, There's a point you get to and it's ageism where people think you're past a point in your life, and so you're not a sexual being anymore. But actually, they just see you as an older person. Um, do you? Do you have any thoughts on that? Not particularly. I don't give [00:46:00] a bug of what people think. Actually, in respect, I'm still a sexual person, and I'll continue as long as I can. That doesn't bother me. We had when we were doing one of our interviews. I remember someone talking about going into certain kinds of gay particularly male bars, where a lot of people are younger and buff and there's a look, and that he, as an older man, didn't always feel comfortable in those spaces. He felt ignored or [00:46:30] marginalised. Do you ever go to places like that? And you think I'm invisible? No, I probably don't go to them. Um, I've been with when young Irishman mention that was here. I used to go to places with him and I'd be I I'd think in fact, I'd say to him, I'm the oldest person here about 40 odd years but, you know, it didn't matter too much, so I wouldn't go back on my own. [00:47:00] Certainly, I'm remembering a story that I think you remember differently. And this is something that Dad and I find often is my memory of the story is quite different from dad's. Your stories get elaborated. I am sometimes called the hyper. I admit to that, but my version of the story is one of the hero parades. When they were still on road, you and Graham walked down the street holding hands [00:47:30] and Graham lost some of his clients for his business. I think he lost one of his clients and he thought it was for that reason. Yes. True. Yeah. So someone had seen him and thought, Oh, he's gay. Don't want to go to him anymore in his business. And not long after that, I, for some reason wrote a letter to the listener because oh, that's right. Because there was an article about gay parents and gay families. And I remember you actually went out and bought [00:48:00] 10 copies of the listener and that letter which included that story of Of Someone When you're losing losing work and How you know, revolting. I thought it was, and it was quite a long time ago. And we're still having these kind of conversations you know about if people can hold their hands in public, and will it have impact on their lives? And it did have some impact on Graham's life. That particular incident, didn't it? And that had an impact on me to think that that would be what, 10 years ago? 10. [00:48:30] You remember the story accurately. Well done. Thanks. What do you think? The biggest things you learned from each other. Are you first? OK, well lately, because we've been doing this oral history project. Together, we're going around and interviewing older gay men. I've learned from you about the fact that you're an expert in your area. Because when we started this, you felt, Oh, you [00:49:00] couldn't go out and interview people on your own because you don't know you don't know how to do this stuff. And I had a little bit of technical knowledge. But then we went and did our training together, and we learned how to do oral histories and you can use the equipment. And I don't know how to use our new equipment now. And when we actually go out and do the interviews, despite the fact that you said, Oh, I can't you know, I won't be able to say anything. You're the one with the knowledge. You're the one who draws people out. And what it made me realise was how you've always listened and how good you are at listening [00:49:30] and drawing, drawing out stories and drawing people out into themselves. And I think that's a great skill. And hopefully one I've learned a bit from you and how to listen to the other people because I talk so much, you know. But listening is a completely different skill that I think you have in spades. And I've loved seeing these interviews develop and you going off and doing them on your own. Now I just think that's wonderful and you can teach an old dog new tricks. [00:50:00] In that case, I would say, probably the thing I learned about you is how intelligent you are, Emma. Um, you know, academic skills never cease to way. Thank you. And that's the thing about academic skills, which I find so funny is that when we've done the research before, we've gone off and interviewed people. You've found out all sorts of things about people, and you found books I didn't find and ideas, and [00:50:30] we get together and talk about it. That's research. And that's what you do. And you just don't do it in an academic context. But yeah, And John, can you tell me you you know, you've alluded to Well, you both alluded to that. That whole idea of, um always, you know, looking forward and not regretting anything. Um, where do those kind of ideas come from? Where where does that kind of value set come from? I don't know. II. I [00:51:00] guess I just don't see the point in worrying about something that's happened. Same as I don't know where it came from, though. I have no idea. Did you What were your parents like about the past? Did they regret things? Did they talk about the past? No, no, not a lot. My, um I grew up in a household where we were to be seen and not heard at the dinner table. [00:51:30] We didn't talk at the dinner table, so I guess I was re repressed in a way, um, until I was in my in my twenties, I was very, very shy and ingo in grown, if you like. It wasn't until later that became more confident. Took me a long time When, um, I want to ask you because it's I just It's just occurred to me you took off [00:52:00] to Australia for a while. Was that a turning point for you in terms of getting out of home? And, Oh, I still embarrassed myself by thinking that when I went to Australia, I was going to find myself, and I always thought of that in inverted commas. I was going to find myself. I think? I think I'm still looking. So that that was, um I was able to be a gay man in Sydney when I went there when I was 20. So I suppose I did find myself to a certain extent, Yes. [00:52:30] And did you feel confident being yourself as a gay man in Sydney? Well, I wasn't any more out gay then than I than I am now, but yes, I must have been, I guess, because that story of getting on the or the and going off to Sydney is a story that's come up in a number of our interviews. When people have gone overseas over to Sydney, that's the big trip. And then they have adventures. And, well, you're away from your family, so you can probably, [00:53:00] um, branch out of it and do things that you wouldn't do at home. You wouldn't be able to do at home. Not that I do anything special over there, but it is a bit liberating leaving, leaving the country going somewhere else. As everybody who goes on over years, No doubt. No doubt that was it in the 19 sixties or fifties. Sorry. Probably 1956 or 57. So did it feel like a long way to go? Then? [00:53:30] What? It was 33 day trip, I think, on the boat and ship. I suppose it was a long way. My I can't remember. My brother was there. Then I suppose he was in Sydney. Can you imagine, John? What it would have been like having this kind of conversation with your father? No. No way. My father [00:54:00] the licence number on his his car was BQ, and he made a joke about it being bloody Q. Uh, bloody bloody queer was his comment. And I remember them talking about that Oscar Wilde in very, very downing tones. Um, no, he wouldn't. He wouldn't have Condoned me in any way being gay. [00:54:30] He might have come around to it. I don't know, but I certainly would never have had that conversation with him with my mother. Possibly? Yes. Not my father And Emma. Can you imagine doing this kind of interview with, um, potentially a child of yours? How how would you feel about doing something like this? It's an interesting question. It it would be possible. I can see how it could. It could happen because There are so many [00:55:00] so many people having more sort of relaxed conversations about sexuality now, and it seems to me that it's acceptable to say yes, I've been with women. Yes, I've been with men, Um, in a way that it wouldn't have been 30 years ago. I suppose so, Yes, I. I can imagine having that conversation. But then again, if I actually had Children, I might feel quite differently about it because one of the things about the project and I have done together is we're talking about [00:55:30] people's sexual identity. Therefore, are we or are we not talking about sex because people don't talk about sex with their parents very often? So that fine line has been probably awkward? Sometimes I would imagine, and we've certainly noticed in terms of what people say in front of me versus what people say. If it's just you, it's quite different because I think we're father and daughter and I'm a woman. So yeah, I think the the conversations have have changed. Mostly, yeah, [00:56:00] ask me if I ever have a child 20 years time. How how do you feel about today's recording here? I mean, do you feel this uncomfortable, comfortable situation. How how does it feel for you? Well, it's been fascinating because I've heard things Dad's never told me. So it's been great for me and I. I mean, I always enjoy talking to Dad. Yeah, so it's been It's been great. I'm thinking I can't wait for my sisters to hear this. And I've enjoyed [00:56:30] it, too, because I enjoy talking to Emma as well, even though I don't enjoy being recorded. Do you have any kind of final words for people that are potentially in the same situation? All I can say is is, um, just live your life the best way you can. That's all you can do. And I and I would say, [00:57:00] have as many conversations as you can because you never know. You know what you might learn from other people? Hm?
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