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Um, one of the things that's always really struck me when I've been doing the privileged work is how almost completely, Um, the Asian aggregate group is co-opted into whiteness. So how much? Um, uh, uh, those brown people doesn't always necessarily include the Asian group, and they get kind of co-opted into this model minority kind of status. Um, and, um, a couple [00:00:30] of the slides that I'm gonna show, um, will look a little bit heavy. But what I wanted to show was some of the most recent, uh, racism experiences of racial discrimination work that we've seen, Um, and how the two populations, white Europeans and Asians couldn't be more different in terms of their experiences of that. And, um, just makes me think, really, um, a lot about how to try and be politicised about the way that the Asian aggregate group is co-opted often into, uh, being the [00:01:00] white being kind of the model non-white group. Um, And what that means in terms of how it sets up, um, other non-white non Asian groups in the country to think about the Asian group and to think about their relationships with white people. Um and I'm often in my own, um, family. And in my own experiences, I'm often, um, having these very intricate discussions with my Maori family about their perceptions of the Asian group [00:01:30] and where that comes from and what it means. And, um and what we as Maori, um, can and need to be thinking about in that regard. So that's sort of where I was thinking was some of that, um, as I said before, a key problem when you're talking about societal privilege to a group of non white, um, women, um, is sort of how it's it's almost like I'm coming in to teach a whole room full of fluent speakers how to say, you know, So it's kind of like you're far, [00:02:00] you're not the average group that I would get to talk about this stuff with, And, um, so I'm gonna sort of just mention a bit about what I've been doing with, um around privilege and talking to mainly white academic audiences and white professional bodies. Um, about this stuff, and it always is. There's a few activities that we do, and it's always good when you have, um, a real mixed, um, group. Um, ethnically and, um, in terms of race because it can really show, um, how white [00:02:30] people are viewed as normal and the things they can take for granted. And I'm not sure that's quite gonna work with all of us, but, um, who cares? We'll just go ahead and, um and I'll just and just jump in if you want anything to say anything or whatever. I'm not sure how to get that looking any better, but I'm a big fan of PowerPoint because I don't like writing. I have to do it. But I don't like doing it. Um, so I often will use PowerPoint because I don't write well, but I speak real good. [00:03:00] Um, and there's a couple. I just want to have a couple make make a couple of things. Um, firstly, when I'm feeling really comfortable in a group as I'm here, I'm prone to swearing. And, um, I know some people have issues with that, But as I told Ruth, um, the the the be a good place to swear word is incredibly endearing. And so if I If I swear or you know, um, II, I can sort of do that. Um, it's a compliment because I don't know. I won't do that in some [00:03:30] settings. Um, and also, after I saw Operation eight, I have an aversion to having my photo taken. So if people just for purely political reasons, um so if people can just sort of refrain from doing that, um, it's not because I, you know, that's not a thing. It's not none of that. But, um, I just don't know where those things end up and who gets them and who's seeing them and for what purpose. And I'm really conscious when I've been talking about whiteness and about the [00:04:00] powerful in our society that doesn't always, um, single you out for, um, pats on the back Or, um, you know, no medals coming your way. Um, and in fact, you kind of there's there's almost the opposite. So I I'm I'm really conscious about that. OK, um, so one of the things that I sort of, um, do when I introduce this work to white people who have no concept of what you're talking about. Um, as I as I as I show this matrix, um [00:04:30] and these are kind of how I I've just finished a A four year study around societal privilege in a And this was sort of some of the the frames that we used. And along the top you'll see there's sort of a policy domain. There's a media domain, and then there's sort of an ethnographic everyday people kind of domain. And along this side is sort of some of the ways that we can think about those domains. So ones in terms of identity ones in terms of power and ones in terms of discourse, of how people talk. Um And so, for instance, [00:05:00] I'll often say the people you know Ah, um, So why do you think there isn't a Ministry of Affairs? Why is there no Ministry of Park Affairs? Come on. We got a Ministry of Maori affairs, Minister of Civic Affairs, Ministry of Women's Affairs. There's a youth council. There's a age concern. Why is there no Ministry of Affairs? And most people have no Oh, my God. And I mean, the the major thing is that when you start actually using that term park and you start using that term white and you start talking about their cultural products. [00:05:30] One of the things that I notice is the body language in the audience starts to change very dramatically. And you'll find all of the people of colour in the room who have been sitting like this because you've been talking about poverty. We've been talking about dispossession talking about all this other stuff, and you start talking about whiteness and power and who has it and who doesn't. You find all the people of colour in the room, Start start from the from this and start to do this. Oh, right. And it's something that I never knew until I actually started [00:06:00] talking about this stuff and seeing it in the room. And the white people in the room start sort of like, you know, because they're very comfortable talking about poverty. They're very comfortable talking about that. What can we do for you? How can we help you? You know, um, how How can we better understand you to make you better? You know, it's all this code and kind of terminology. They start like this and start doing this. And so it's a real um, and of course, the people of colour never knew that they were doing this until they start doing this right, And the white people [00:06:30] never knew they were doing this until they start doing this. So it sort of really highlights some of our, um, pre pre understandings, you know, our paradigms about when we're talking about social relations. The other thing that I do in my lectures is I set rules about who can speak and when and for how long. And so when I'm in a discussion and it always I don't I don't understand why, but more than anything else, it seems to connect with people. So when I'm in a space, I'll say, If you are white and you are male, [00:07:00] you get one question or comment and that is it. You cannot ask it first, and you cannot ask it last. Um, because you've been conditioned. It's not your fault. It doesn't make you bad people. You're not an asshole, but you're being conditioned to speak all the time when you're not wanted, when it's not valuable was when it's irrelevant. It's not your fault. You don't know that it is. You just There's a gap in the space, and you are expected to fill it, Um, so I want you to be conscious about your input into the open talk time. [00:07:30] Um and then I'll say, if you are not white and you are not male, you've also been conditioned to shut up. And I would invite you to say more than you might otherwise do just to try and work this out. Um, it it it works. I mean, every non-white male in the audience goes, Yeah, because it's like finally, you're getting those pricks. Someone's saying something to them and all the white men are kind of like, you know, it's it's there, but I haven't had any problems with it. No one's ever sort of come to me and had [00:08:00] a huge issue with it. And it does. It works. It makes those white men shut up. Think carefully about what it is that they want to ask, because you're only gonna get one option and to ask it properly. And, um, I'm I'm for it, but I'm all for that. I think that's a good, uh, way to to work some of this stuff. And if you're in the business of social change, it's got to start with us. You can't expect your clients or your, uh, you know your students or someone else to do it. We have to sort of be in the business of trying to do it ourselves. Um, so we talk about [00:08:30] that we talk a bit about in terms of identity in the media about this group, this ethnic group called New Zealander and what that means, Um I mean, there's a whole wealth of deconstruction about Oh, I'm not any ethnic group. I'm a New Zealander and you're a New Zealander too. And we are all New Zealanders. So, you know, we we sort of know what to make of that. But that's a very privileged position to think that, you know, your national identity is your ethnic group, and I don't want to have anything to do with that. It's all tied into that thing. I don't have a culture. I don't know what it is and you're so lucky and all the rest [00:09:00] of it. Um OK, so that's sort of one of the things that I use. Um, I do A I do a slide about race and ethnicity because a lot of people don't understand what the difference is. They use the different words kind of interchangeably and they're not the same. Um So in terms of race, like, you know, we we all understand that the race has no literal meaning, right? So there's no The genetic variation between a white person and a black person is less than the genetic variation [00:09:30] between a tall person and a short person, so the actual genetic basis of race has no literal meaning. But when we see people and we make a social interpretation on how they look and it's that that is what's sort of more more understood as race and where racism comes from, so we're not it's not about, you know, your no shape and measuring the size of your head and all that crap that those working ethnographers used to do back in the back in the day, Um, sort of about a social interpretation of what that [00:10:00] means. And I'm always interested in the terms. Uh uh, not only in how you look, but in your language that you speak in your accent and in your behaviour. Now, you will all understand that there are certain accents in this country that are really valued. Oh, I just love it. How you say that can you say this? Can you say that? Oh, that sounds so great. And it's usually French, uh, Scottish. Any of the kind of European countries. Those accents are viewed very differently than accents from almost anywhere else. No one's asking tiny [00:10:30] people. Oh, that's so lovely. Can you say this? Can you say that? Right. So accent is an important kind of feature. So it's not just about what you look like. It's also about some of these other things as well. Um, ethnicity is, uh, of course, more about choice than that, then just that social interpretation of how you look. Um, I always think it's about being a mass expert, because I remember when I was 12. Um, I had to fill out something at the at the post office. I can't remember what it was, and they ask you what [00:11:00] your ethnicity was, and I'm 38 and and when I was 12, which would be hm 80 something, Um, I had to fill out the form, and that was when we still use the blood quantum, the fractions kind of definition. Yeah, bro, that old. And, um And that was before it was, you know, before self identification really kind of took off. It was still this blood quantum and they and they said, um, in order to be able to tick that you were Maori, you had to be at least 1/16 Maori. [00:11:30] And I remember, um, all through my, um, schooling of being a bit of a, um, an outlier in that I was always very good at maths. And I remember thinking to myself, Yeah, and I remember thinking in my head Oh, yeah, and coming out that I was more than 1 16 thinking, Yeah, I could take that. I was Maori, Um And so I always think, um, sometimes ethnicity is about being kind of this mass expert because you're always asked to kind of quantify the bits of yourself that are something and the bits of yourself that is something else and what that means. [00:12:00] And that in itself has a, um, has an aim assimilationist, uh, agenda. Because if you can be, are you only 1/16 Maori, then you're 15, 16, something else, and why not go with that something else? So it has all those kind of political connotations. Um, but the bigger question is really who is always asked to define themselves. And that's what most people have the greatest trouble with. Because when you start talking about their culture and who their people are and what their structures are and what [00:12:30] that means for the world, they start getting defensive because they've never had to do that before. They're incredibly unsophisticated at having those discussions, Um, so we got to feel for them and try and help them and move them along and do exercises and get them doing stuff so that they're feeling good. Um, because the whole point of this is that it's not about bad people, and that's real important. You know, you didn't You can't wake up tomorrow and not be You can't wake up tomorrow and not have white skin. But you have to understand that those things mean something doesn't [00:13:00] make you a bad person. But we live in a in a society where those things kind of happen. It's not any bad people involved. It's about a structure that enforces that and trying to keep that because everyone's immediately wanting to think I'm doing anything wrong. I'm not privileged. Sometimes you can't even use that word. I'm not privileged. No one's done anything for me. My parents, My mother died when I was 10. All the rest of it, right? And it's not about what you are experiencing just as an individual, but as part of the whole structure. OK, I use this concept of racism comes from, uh, an [00:13:30] ethnic African American colleague called Kamara Jones. Um, and this is her definition of racism. I really quite like it because I think it's quite good. Um, I've put the bulbs and that's not her. The bulbs, um so she defines it as a system of structuring opportunity and assigning value on the basis of the social interpretation of how we look. And I thought that's really good firstly, because it talks about it as being a system, and so it's not, and every person is a part of that system. Every every person here is a part of the white system of a white structure, not [00:14:00] because we choose to be, but because that is the structure that we've inherited. Um, I like the thing about structuring opportunity because that's true assigning value. That's true, and based on the social social interpretation of how we look But I'm also interested in how we speak, how we behave and what groups we are members of, because I think those things are important as well. Um, OK, I just wanted to show you some of these new racism stats because the whole, um, model minority, Um, I think it's a load of bullshit. I can see [00:14:30] where there are some, um, connections. Economically. Um, geographically, I think there are some, um there's some, uh, validity to some of this kind of co-opting of of the Asian group into whiteness. Um, but I wanted to show these are the two papers that I'm gonna look at. Um, it's it's not It's not gonna be dramatic. It's not too too much work. Um, the first one are from colleagues from Wellington and their their survey has been, um, the National Health Survey. And they've been able to [00:15:00] put in some questions about, uh, discrimination. And the second one is about young people. So the second one is the youth 2007 survey that's gone around, uh, high schools throughout the whole country. Um, all young people, all the people, young people in it are between the ages of 13 and 18 majority of them in between, Uh, from 14 to 17 years old. Um, and we'll talk a bit about that. But the only two tables I wanted to show you Yeah, [00:15:30] OK, so I suppose if I get up, it might be easier. Um, so these are the items and one of the new things about asking about racism. Because when you say, Oh, if you had an experience of racism and you don't make it any more specific than that, then many white people think that they've had an experience of racism because someone's called them honky. Right, So? So one of the newer things about, um when you when you're asking discrimination questions, is they start asking for a site. So where is it happening and what is happening when when it when it occurs. Um, so the first line here is [00:16:00] about, uh and this is people who have experienced racial discrimination ever in their life. So it's not any more specific than that. Um, so this is when you had a physical attack, a verbal attack. And then there's these sections which is unfair treatment, so unfair treatment and health and work and housing. Right? So those are the three areas that have been looked at. Um And then this is the overall discrimination. Oh, and I've gone through and done it all in different colours so everybody could see the difference. OK, so physical attack for Maori is [00:16:30] is very high. So 7.8% 5.4 between this is 2002 and this is 2006 7. Right, So this is the time thing. The important thing. So remember for this is that in terms of overall discrimination by Maori, Pacific, Asian and European in every group, overall discrimination is decreasing. Except the Asian group and the Asian group, their, uh their self reported discrimination is increasing. And that's [00:17:00] the only group in which that's happening. Um, to pick out the sort of specifics, um, verbal attacks are very high, so that's being called a certain name and even have that. But see, this is what's important, because if you look at the past, find their statistics, that's where their racism is. They're not getting they're not getting they're not getting discriminated against in, uh, in health. That's 1%. They're not getting discriminated against in work that doesn't even get to 2%. And they're not being discriminated [00:17:30] in housing, not at all. Their discrimination happens in being called names. That's not the same as structure. That's an interpersonal act. Those are different than the structural acts in which all the other groups, um, are are featuring. And I think that's really important, because if you just ask about racism, then you get all that bullshit like we are groups racist, racist. Everybody says things about everybody. That's actually not true. You know, we live in a racialized society, Yes, but that doesn't mean that every [00:18:00] group is racist. We're experiencing it in the same way. And so I think that that's really important. You know that the the discrimination happens at the verbal attacks for the every other group that happens at all the structural elements. Um, so the biggest thing for the Asian group is this is a dramatic increase in discrimination reported at work from work in the work environment. That's increasing a lot, Um, but so is healthcare. That's gone from 2.3 to 4.8% work [00:18:30] from 8% to 11.8% So that's going up a lot. Um, and then housing from 4 to 5.3 for the Maori Pacific Group, the Pacific Group they have They have, um, a large amount of discrimination in terms of work as well. Maori is not so much, but in housing, Maori getting discriminated against a lot more in housing. 9.8% for Maori and housing, um, than almost any other group Pacific. A lot of this is in the workplace, and for Asians, it's sort of it's a it's [00:19:00] a it's a, um, proportional increase in every area. So what I think that that sort of goes to show is that, um oh, the only other thing is that they took they put down here whether you are reporting one item only two items or three or more. So this is about the accumulation. This is about how many different kind of, uh, discriminatory events you are experiencing. Um, and of course, it's highest amongst Maori. Um, but now, uh, it's highest amongst [00:19:30] Maori, but it's decreasing, but amongst Asian, it's it's it's increasing almost double. And so me and the I had a chat with the authors and We've tried to figure out what it is that's made this dramatic increase in the Asian group in that four years, and I think it. We think it comes down to two things. Um, one is that the exposure is increasing, so the actual events are increasing. Um, the that's happening. It's happening more and more or two that, um and there is a bit of evidence to support this, that as an aggregate group, the Asian [00:20:00] population don't always, um, have a lot of faith in answering research surveys and questionnaires, uh, confidently. So they may not always, um, tell the truth, uh, for fear of a whole range of other things, of things, somehow coming back to get them coming back to sort of feature. That has been, um, noticeable in the Asian group. And we think maybe that has been changing as well. Where there's many more of them actually answering. Truthfully, um, the key thing to remember about this is it doesn't tell us who the perpetrators of that are, so [00:20:30] it may be a lot of in group stuff. It may be a lot of other whole lot of other things going on. Um, so that's amongst adults. And then the last one that I wanted to show you was amongst young people because I think some of that's actually uh, pretty out of it. And I mean, some of you, in your introduction had talked a bit about it as well. Um, I can't see it, but anyway, um, so this is done with all those high school students. There's nine, about nearly 10,000 of them [00:21:00] throughout the whole country. Um, this is about had experienced ethnic ethnicity related bullying, and the Asian group is by far and away the biggest in that in that area. And that's 8.5% of all the Asian kids that answered That survey had experienced ethnicity related bullying. It's a huge, huge problem, and I don't see anybody addressing it, to be honest, um, treated unfairly by the police. Well, no surprises that it's Maori Pacific that are featuring the highest, and that, but A [00:21:30] and two is 5. 5.4% of the kids are experiencing unfair treatment by the police for Maori 6.5 Pacific. It's 7.5 so that's kind of high. And that group, um and then by a health professional. The highest is among Pacific, so they're being discriminated against in health. I think probably a lot of that has to do with language and a whole range of other things. Um, so this whole kind of idea that, um, the Asian aggregate group and I say aggregate because Asian is not an ethnicity, right? [00:22:00] It's not ethnicity. It's just an aggregate name for a whole group of people from a range of different places with a range of different ethnic groups. Um and so this whole idea that that group is the model minority, Uh, that's I wouldn't want to be that that's not the model, uh, experience there. So there's a whole range of issues that we could be working with that I think the model minority, um, discourse can really work against us trying to address some of that stuff. [00:22:30] OK, OK, so let's do an activity because, you know, that's how we roll. And everyone's been sitting for ages. Um, what I thought that I would do is, um first thing we do, what I do in workshops is we do an if if a racial and ethnic, um type list I have to tell all the this doesn't mean that you believe them. This is just what you've heard. Believe that. You know, [00:23:00] all these different stereotypes happen. Um, I don't know if we should write them, or people can just remember in your head. But if I was to ask you what other ethnic stereotypes of Maori, what would we say? That should be all right. I reckon everyone's got a nothing new to people here. So if we were gonna say that, right? [00:23:30] Yeah, I don't Um um I'm I'm worried that that was the precedent was set now. So if we were to ask you about what are the what are the, uh, racial stereotypes of Maori? What would we What would we think? That we're here? Poor Heather gangs. We on the table. We what? We love jail. I was thinking about Elizabeth about her, her, um, working in the district court. Because in the district [00:24:00] court, where my family are from, they have to call the out by by initial. So it's C and then for them. You get you get where I'm going with it. Um, So, yeah, there's the jail thing. Anything else? Violence. Yeah, poor teenage pregnancies. Wow. Dodges, right? Some. [00:24:30] Yeah. So OK, what if we were to say what other kind of racial stereotypes of, uh, civic people? What would we say? Lazy? Yeah. Overstayers. Yeah. Christian, That stereotype. Yeah, that's true. What about if we were to say, what are the, uh, racial stereotypes of, [00:25:00] uh ah. Rather than, say, Asian. Although when you do say Asian, it does that works in the park in your mind, like, you know. Oh, I don't know any. I don't know any Vietnamese people or, you know, you get it too, too. You drill down too much, you start to lose them. So you gotta try and keep it aggregates. Do work aggregates do work for them. But you gotta You gotta remember, like as a as a population. Like I said, they are incredibly unsophisticated at this stuff. They don't know half of what we know. We would experience more [00:25:30] stuff around ethnicity after from what we've experienced just up to lunch time today than they would probably had in their whole life. So, you know, you got to feel put the hand out and hope that they that they kind of take it. They say that they put us together in books. So Asian, African and South American like I've been called South America so many times. And I am, like, actually me. [00:26:00] That was very business. Yeah, it's like many countries, I feel like, uh, I say, Asian people always, uh, Asian, They always said, Like, uh, Japanese, Chinese, East Asian and then ethnic. It's like, Wow, [00:26:30] it's African Indian. No. Yeah. So thinking of any of those groups. What would be some of the racist stereotypes? Some of the racial or ethnic stereotypes of those groups? Weird food, Naggy curry munches. Come on, you can all do much better. Dad drives terrorist [00:27:00] sex. Yeah, Sexist barber. Barbaric, uneducated. Cool. Oh, you like you like fish, right? You eat the chicken? Yeah, absolutely. And now what if we were to think about the racial stereotypes of white people? What if we were to think about the pakeha ethnic group in this country? What are some of the racist racial stereotypes we have of that group? [00:27:30] This is how this is how different different this group is because in my workshops, when I asked that question, there's a like a about a five or 12th silence while everyone goes. Oh, fuck. I knew I was coming, and I don't have anything to say. What do you mean? Yeah, that important rich talk a lot. That [00:28:00] loud, ignorant, lovely title. Yeah, boring. See, this is this is where the this is where the politicisation of the group is tripping me up because Because normally when you say that it's rich, um, nice houses, um, good jobs. And actually, when you put them on the board, every different group that's not [00:28:30] white. All of their racial stereotypes are negative and orientation, they're all bad. And you start talking about the white people. What you notice is when you put the words up mainly in a white audience, they're all positive markers. They're rich. Um, they got good jobs. They're well educated, you know. You name it. Um, so we got a few. We got a few different ones, but oh, my God. Yeah. Um, [00:29:00] so I mean, that's sort of one of the one of the examples that I use about trying to get people firstly, to understand that actual racial stereotypes of white people are quite difficult to come up with when you think about? I mean, you you you guys are not in that realm. The kind of, uh, like I say, you're fluent speakers and they're at, so you know, it's not quite the, um, but by and large, um, white people have never had to think about that. They never had to think about Oh, you know, they understand all the racial words that they use for everyone else. [00:29:30] They may not believe them, but they are discourse that they can draw on any time they want. But as a sort of an understanding about their own, uh, kind of, uh, stereotypes is actually really, really new to them. Um, the other thing I wanted to sort of talk about was, uh, one of the terminologies. And, you know, you always know whether you've made it in the world or not. When Microsoft Word recognises your name I, I you know, like, I've got to be a senior researcher and I had never read um Oh, like what? [00:30:00] Yeah. What? No, I've never read free, but I've been reading free air for my PhD. And, um, you know, you've made it in the world where Microsoft Word will tell you how to spell that person's name. So free is in Microsoft Word. That's a word that names a word and that will tell you how to spell it. Um, you know, and when I've been thinking about some of these terminologies. So if we look at the word underclass underclass, Microsoft Word recognises underclass as a word that's a word under privilege. That's [00:30:30] a word. And one thing that I always show is and you're not gonna see it because something's happened to the thing here. Right now, you can see it so underprivileged. Well, that's a word underclass. Well, that's a word. Underclass is a word over class overprivileged. Look how fast those little red lines that micro software is saying. That's not a word that's [00:31:00] not a word. So why is it that underclass is a word underclass? We when, when we're being told these words by politicians and others that we think about the actual term under is a relational word, It's It's, uh, it's if [00:31:30] you're under, then by definition, somebody else is over. That's what the word means. It's a it's a it's a retrospective. Uh, not retrospective. What would you call it? Relational proportional word, right? So if you've got one, you've got to have the other. But we never talk about the other. That other overprivileged? Um, yes, that's the point. I don't think there's any such thing as being overprivileged. I think that you can be You can have privilege. [00:32:00] But I think it's not about being too privileged, which overprivileged kind of brings with it. And it's not about like, giving away your privilege. It's about giving love. And, you know, like I. I see, like a lot of white shame if you want to call it where people try to, you know? Oh, I don't wanna be I wanna be Maori like you guys, Um and I'm gonna give away all my white privilege, but that's not possible. But in a way, it's a case to the point where you got [00:32:30] it. It, in a way, it's a case in point that you've got it, but you want to give it away, you know, because I don't want to be treated like this anymore. I want to be real. I want to be treated like everybody else, but they still got that privilege regardless of if they say I don't have that privilege because I give it away. So I don't think it's It's too too much, you know is happens and becomes up too much [00:33:00] and over because of your privilege at the expense of. So if you have something that it's not at the expense of everyone, you wouldn't have a dynamic where you have under and over. You just have, like, stuff. Yeah, everyone has stuff that is called whatever. But where is that dynamic that becomes? Uh, yeah, you can see it as happening at the expense of other people being able. You could I see it as that become the two or whatever love my kid, [00:33:30] but corruption and and and and power and taking power that But he If if I look at the performance, they might see that right? I live in South Auckland, but I now we've got a school right next to Kings College that is very underprivileged schools, then poverty. Extreme. We've got Kings College on the privileged right majority that go there. [00:34:00] They have the trains stop before the main station. They have their own special little stop. They have their own special little people that come on and make sure that they protect them from the brown people that are at the same station so that they can avoid mixing them with the brown population. Now that tells me that there is an over privilege on a particular group because every other person is supposed to be a legal citizen, Yet they are given their own [00:34:30] little bus or train stop. That's only 400 metres or main train stop so that they can get off and not have to get off with the brown subclass of society because that's how they are deemed to be. I guess if I look at it, I'm part of Aboriginal too Australian aboriginal persons. If you look at it, um, I see overprivileged among colonial prison every day and being and not having indeed a human being [00:35:00] that in 1967 we were for and fauna, so they believe it would kill us and give over murder because we were not the human until then, and they would us. They would use us and waistcoats and burs because they were the Victorian population. You see, the races in Australia and Australia is down to the overprivileged whites who don't see themselves as they see themselves as the true Australians and don't give the indigenous population a voice at all. They have no voice. They have no [00:35:30] treaty treaty. But we have no privilege of that treaty that was removed the day from 18 42. I think it was when the first case came against a treaty breach. So you never had privilege. We have had that taken away from us from the day we signed that treaty over. So there is too much privilege sometimes. And New Zealand whites don't appreciate the fact that they come into this world with more. [00:36:00] There was until recently we know about the stolen generation. We all know about them having been stolen, don't we? We don't know about the stolen generations of Maori. We were removed and we had our ethnicities falsified on legal documents taken so that we've been illegally adopted by whites because they saw it as better for us. That was because they saw them as being better. They are over privileged in every way [00:36:30] of those rights because I was taken away and removed. I'm not a lost child. I'm not here. I'm none of them. I am a stolen generation, and many of our people are stolen and taken and removed. Institutional I can put in. And that's where overprivileged, if that comes in with whites because they make the laws, they define the laws and they decide who has the privilege. And this is just my opinion. But I, I see over That's just my humble [00:37:00] I do. I know what I see what you're saying, though, because I think that is a debate that we that we, um, are often having in in our circles that are talking about privilege is, um, you know, so does that mean we want we want white kids to be abused more? You know, that's not sort of, but I do think that, um that the relativity, because the problem you know, the problem with the whole concept is their their their within it, you know. So there's no kind of all privileged group, an underprivileged group. [00:37:30] There's this whole kind of continual of people, and I mean, of course, every single individual, every individual is oppressed in one way and privileged in other ways. But what we're talking about is how population groups as a whole of society, um, are kind of treated and understood. And I think, you know, I think it would be fair to say that, um that OK, everybody, as a as a as a fair skinned Maori, I know that there are ways that I get treated before people understand that I'm Maori. That will be different to others. And I think so. Every person who has white [00:38:00] skin, irrespective of your ethnicity, You got something in that bank account that you can you can you can call on when you need to, you know, And I think that if you think about privilege in terms of class, in terms of gender, in terms of, um, occupational outcome in terms of home ownership, privilege gets concentrated more and more and more into the elites. And I think that the kind of current kind of economic and political structures that the world has and is moving more towards is increasing that. So there has to be a way that we can kind of understand [00:38:30] the relativity of privilege in a similar way that we understand the relativity of disadvantage because I think that that disadvantage scale everybody is an expert. You can ask anybody what that means, and they'll have an idea about it for you. But I think the over the over example people don't really understand what that means and the complexity of it. Um and I mean, the the biggest concern about white privilege is that most white people, apart from the colour of their skin, um, are not advantaged by it anyway. So the whole kind of privilege argument is detrimental [00:39:00] to everybody in it, not just the people at the bottom, because the people at the top, uh, you know, they they don't often develop coping strategies. I mean, one of the things I've been in my selfish moments laughing my ass off about is the whole pray for farming. The whole pray for farm thing being sold to the Chinese. Um, now, as a Maori, I'm like, Hm. You know? Yeah, it's half a dozen or something or six of the other. You know what? What is it? What? What real difference does it make to Maori? Um, about that. But you see, the white people are going ape shit about that, [00:39:30] but the killings are their own land. See on, you know online about the Chinese buying, Uh, you know what's been offered to them by another, um, to sell. And so in my sensitive moments in my you know, in my inner south in my outer south, I was like, Oh, bummer. You know, in in the South, I'm laughing my ass off because it's like, Oh, you guys sound like a bunch of Maori, [00:40:00] you know, Stop. Stop your whining and get over it. You know, the whole disco. So, you know, you can sort of you can sort of see just how transient that kind of privilege can be. And once you're on the receiving end, what then is your attitude and how well can you, uh, throw a line out to the other groups that have been saying the same thing for a long, long time? And [00:40:30] and then the latest thing has been that James Cameron, who was the director of Avatar, has bought some property. That guy's a fuckwit. I have seen him interviewed, and I'm like, Oh, my God, please. I was just devastated when I knew that guy is moving to a. That to me is a bigger concern than the Craver Farms. But you know what? I mean is sort of. I've just been laughing my ass off at all. The pakeha who [00:41:00] have just been outraged about it and like they're starting to feel really like vulnerable in their own land. And some of them have even been starting to make the leap with Oh, well, this must be how Maori feel. And we're all like, Hello. In fact, you know, I know many Maori who have got a bit more faith in the Chinese might have. They might have a better deal with the Chinese, and they've had with with that's just that's just us. I don't know if that's whatever. Um, so I mean, yeah, cool. Shall we carry on? [00:41:30] I've just got a couple more things to do. Um, one of the things that I like to do is that I need to try and get white people talking about their culture because they don't think they have any. We don't have any culture, but often in the in the national discourse, if you hear about what is Kiwi culture, and if you ask that professor extraordinaire Google to tell you, uh under pictures, Google Pictures What? Kiwi? I did a search for Kiwi, New Zealand Culture, Maori culture, culture, [00:42:00] uh, New Zealand and these are sort of some of the things that I came up with. And what I do is I get a whole bunch of, uh, my workshop, whatever people to start thinking about these images because I use pictures because that's easier for people to kind of get, um, because they don't understand when you talk to them about culture, what that means. It's sort of like, Isn't that what everybody does? It's like, Hm, that's the point. Um, so I use pictures, and I try to get white people to talk about their culture. Now, one of the problems that I've I've profound with this is that it almost [00:42:30] exclusively excludes anyone from the discussion. That's not and not Maori, and I'm not quite sure how to How do I work so that you know, so that everyone can be included in that, Um, because often you put the picture up, you know, people that yes, it is kiwi culture or No, it isn't, um, Maori or so I haven't quite worked out. How do I get, um, non Maori, Non talking about kiwi culture and feeling, Um included in it and part of that discussion. It's something I'm really trying to [00:43:00] work with. Um, So what I do is I show them these pictures. God, I hate this bloody new windows. Right Click a click. OK, so I showed them these pictures, right? And, um, I hope you can sort of see it. And then I get them to say, Is that Kiwi culture? Maori culture, culture? Or what culture is that? And, uh, you know, what do we think about it? Trying to get them. So fish and chips [00:43:30] and everyone sort of like, got you, Um, Buzzy Bee II. I don't know where that came from. I think I thought it was a Christchurch thing, but Buzzy Bee? Yeah. Is that Is that Kiwi culture? That is that Kiwi culture. That's a board of a whole lot of for sale with little white tags on it. So is that kiwi culture? That sort of It was sort of like, you know, lots of people are kind of quiet, but like [00:44:00] I say, I'm trying to work out a way to include the non-white non Maori in the discussion because obviously the whole point is that they don't feel they're not made to feel that they're part of Kiwi culture. That's kind of the whole point of what I'm trying to work on, and I haven't worked out how quite to um, well, I mean the whole point. I mean, it's it's funny, because the whole point of the exercise is is actually aimed [00:44:30] at white people to actually try to get them to understand. When we talk about Kiwi culture or New Zealand culture, often it's a It's a proxy for your shit and not anyone else's shit, you know, and it's trying to get them to see that this is really your stuff. When you say all that shit, I don't have a culture. You're so lucky. This is what you're talking about, you know? Um, so in a way, it's not. It's not for people of colour to actually offer the, but still I want them to. I want people to feel that they can be part of it because [00:45:00] often they're told they're not part of it. And and I mean part of this and and I mean doing this is to try and get white people to understand that they're not part of it, but I'm not quite sure I'm doing it. I'm achieving it. But that's not anything that, um it's not like you can be part of, [00:45:30] Well, I'll show some sides we've got some sides of And I think that's a perfect example of exactly when and and when that is owned as Kiwi culture and when it's definitely not owned. But, um, half as like I've never quite felt Is it OK to wear like a or like a Melbourne and my father, who's the one? But I, I I've never felt like comfortable, But I [00:46:00] think what if some to me and says so what's the significance of that that you know? But when as an expat living in Japan, every country, I feel that I want to somehow display my Kiwi like some of the key person. Oh, and would be like, Oh, like, yeah, I got, like, you know, press earrings and I But I would see I never [00:46:30] New Zealand. But I Yeah, for that nanosecond. Second or not, I actually find it really strange because I've always grown up around You know what we call Jay [00:47:00] here? It doesn't come. And here in New Zealand. Jade and green in them. Yeah, I remember when I first went to Hong Kong. Um and, um, I love Hong Kong. Hong Kong is like my favourite world city, and we had gone me and my twin had gone to, um Oh, we were, you know, he was doing a whole fucking mass of shopping. And we were, um, in the Jade Store. And the man was some, you know, was the of the jade stuff. And [00:47:30] he wanted to have a look at our under his little under his microscope and stuff. And, um, he told us it was B grade grave. Jay, you know, um, and just stop you and I remember looking at night and I mean, my first thought was like, Fuck you. But my my second thought was like, Oh, well, you know, we're all good with it because it's it's It's more than the, um, thing itself. You know, I think a real [00:48:00] it's a real touchy one. I'm never sure. You know, like, um, we've had discussions in our research group about when we've had people in, and then they all overseas guests, and then they've left. Should we give them a po number. They're not Maori. Um, and I always thought, yes, they need it. They need it more than anybody else. We should give a Because they need the the spiritual significance of what it means. But I sort of come to think a little differently about it. I'm not too sure. Now, you know, about about about that? Um, [00:48:30] yeah, I got no proper answers that the jury is out. What I do know, though, is that the more that we, as a nation are working towards, uh, restitution of Maori rights, the more those kinds of things will become acceptable. I feel so the more that you work that that the country is accepting of Maori rights to certain things protecting Maori language, returning Maori land The more that Maori are able to do that, I think the more, um the less [00:49:00] concerned they are about some of those other side of symbolic things. I think you take the plastic tiki thing. That's a real perfect, really, really good example. Now, what's that? Oh, well, some of them are. We know the difference. We can pick out which ones were made by particular Maori artists but the the has been a a new, uh, well, not new, but it's been reinvigorated by a lot of Maori artists in the kind of mid nineties. Um, up until now, um And so you had this whole plastic tiki thing, which [00:49:30] in New Zealand did in the 19 sixties, and they give it to people and I remember seeing them everywhere. And, you know, um and there was a real think about that, about from Maori about that. And so you saw them all disappear, and now they've slowly been kind of coming back. And now you see plastic tiki everywhere, and Maori don't seem to have as much of a problem with it. And I think that that's because your culture never meant anything to start with. And it's kind of like the whole thing about the WAKA, the waka. Um, that was another good example, because the point for Maori is that it is [00:50:00] always about who is controlling the process. Who owns it? Um, who is getting something from it? What does it mean? What processes are being followed? Who has the power in that? The materials and what you're using are kind of secondary things it's like and that's the other thing I noticed. And every other person has something like that. Rugby World Cup. I got this done at Rugby World Cup, and, um and they were like so these guys were busy, like, all day, every day they were down there, Italians and all manner of these people getting to take [00:50:30] home. And I remember sort of thinking having this discussion with a practitioner down there thinking, How do you feel about that? About part of yourself? Is the practitioner going on someone? They're gonna go all over the world about it. Um, and his and his his, uh, theorising was that? Well, we have controlled this. This is part of our destiny, part of us being who we are and sharing it with other people. That's different than someone using our the actual forms. The the bits and pieces that you're doing are kind of secondary to that process. So I always find if we're thinking about [00:51:00] power and those things, um, often, that's where we find the legitimacy who What is a legitimate kind of plastic, if you like, and what is it and what does it mean? So I think it's Yeah, I don't want to make it about the appropriation stuff because I think the cultural appropriation stuff is, to me incredibly complicated. And we often we often made to think about it in really simplistic ways. Either it is or it isn't or it's good or it's not, or you're shit or you're not, you know, and I just think it's much more complicated than that [00:51:30] is my thing of it. I don't know that that picture would generate such discussion about that. Is that Kiwi culture? Does everyone know what that is? This is. But that is that human culture that always gets a whole lot of white people talking. Yeah. Did anyone you don't know This one? This is called outrageous fortune, right? And one of the I mean, [00:52:00] you know, I in my selfish moments, to be perfectly honest with you, I fucking loved it. I thought it was fucking fantastic, because finally, we're shining a light on white criminals. Right? These are your but you notice how endeared they were. You know, you notice how people thought are you? But, you know, and all the crimes they did were kind of pity crimes not really hurting anybody. Just robbing shit, you know? You notice how it was sort of framed that way. I thought it was a fascinating look [00:52:30] at, um at white culture, to be honest, white Kiwi culture and all the Maori in it were fucking choice suits, right? All the Maori were like, Man, they're awesome. Um, so I don't know, I thought it was interesting, but that kind of gets a lot of white people talking about whether that's culture or not. And the biggest people who are against it are we? Still, they don't think that that was culture or anything else like that at all. I my my sort of very we [00:53:00] got and she was really funny. She's like, it's all about family. It's like she does that. She she she's like, Oh, there's white people. And like, they care about their family so much. Yeah, but you know where they what they went and did. After outrageous fortune finished, all the producers [00:53:30] from that show went and created another show, and it was I can't remember what it was called because they only had, like, two episodes but the whole show And this is why I was like, Oh, my God, you people have so misunderstood what the show was about. So this new show was about a family of gods, and they have these kind of old Greek gods, and, um, they're all and I'm like going Oh, my God, you have. And and of course, there was two episodes, and then everyone was like, This is bullshit. And it finished, and it was canned, and I sort of like and they were what they thought was that everybody that was outrageous. [00:54:00] Fortune would watch that. And I'm like going Oh, my God. How could you totally misunderstand? Outrageous fortune is about a woman you know who's trying to keep her shit together and all her family together. Um, and if we want to go and see a whole bunch of white men um, behaving badly and treating women like shit, we can just go outside our own doors. Yeah, everybody was watching that going far. Man, this is so and so next door. I don't need to watch this [00:54:30] to understand it. And so how could you kind of miss it? But anyway, it was so outrageous fortune. What about that? This is like one of the most well known pictures of the Maori battalion. I think when they were in Italy, um, when I put that up because of all the kind of contested areas of Maori identity into the national being, um, the things that sort of really seem to be entrenched. Uh um [00:55:00] uh, rugby. So the kind of sport that seems to be a valid Maori identity in the national scheme. Um, and war, anything to do with war and fighting in the army. Um, and particularly the Maori battalion is very revered, um, in terms of the kind of the greater kiwi. And I always find that kind of interesting what that's about, Um, but definitely that put that in about Maori culture, and you can't see that, but that's Pavlova, and I always sort of don't I don't quite [00:55:30] know whether I'm asking people about kiwi culture, but is the kiwi fruit or the Pavlova or the ice cream container? Yeah, Ok, have I got to hurry up? Oh, OK. Um, so these are the kind of three pictures I use about haka. This one, I say is that Kiwi culture Maori culture What? Everyone is always pretty clear. That's Maori culture. I put that one up. Is that Kiwi culture? Maori culture that often gets? Oh, no, no, no. That's Kiwi culture. You know, everyone's [00:56:00] pretty sure about that. And then I put this one up. Now, is that Kiwi Culture Maori? This is the This is the black first who, by the way, are four times the consecutive world champions, one after the other. Even when the NZR if you cut their competition, they still won. Um And so this is them performing a hacker. And when I ask people, is that Kiwi culture? Maori culture? What? And there is a resounding silence. No one knows. Oh, my God. Where to put that? Um so that's always a kind [00:56:30] of interesting one about haka. When is it owned by Kiwis? When is it not? And what does that kind of mean? What's the difference? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, let's see. This is this is the kind of stereotype of hacker that it's a man's form, and that's just totally bullshit. But the particular hacker that's used all the time is yeah. Um, that Kiwi culture bro town. Hm. Um, that in New Zealand [00:57:00] that chilli. The beers DB so no, no. Is that flight of the concourse? Is that is that Kiwi culture that always gets a bit of people discussing stuff? What about that is the hero parade. And you know, the surprising thing when you start putting this picture up is that there's a kind of a collection of Maori and and it's this whole Kiwi tribe called, um oh, [00:57:30] will immediately say no. That's not Kiwi culture. That could be anywhere. That could be San Francisco da da da da da Um, yeah. So the tribe often speak up at that at that picture. My tribal parameters of the tribal got really enhanced over the holidays. I don't know why, but I just started seeing them everywhere. What about that one? You know, having a is that Kiwi culture? So all these kind of things Is that [00:58:00] because, you know, New Zealand is middle earth? Haven't you heard? Is that culture? There were Japanese people I had heard who actually really believed that the were a Maori tribe. No shit. No shit. Believe that I was like, Oh, my goodness. Rugby jerseys to take is that kiwi culture? Uh, that's the geyser in, and often you'll find that the most uncontested pictures are the natural pictures. So the ones that are just off the land and in a way that makes the most [00:58:30] perfect sense is that Kiwi culture that always sort of shuts all the white people up. They don't usually want to make a call either way, when that picture comes up, um, the Gumboot uh, this is the Kiwi batch, and it's very interesting when I ask people. Is that Kiwi culture? Often it's like, Yes, yes. And how many people have a batch? It's like, 02. That's right. [00:59:00] Yeah, well, the historic aspect is really important because it's sort of validate. You've been here for a long time, just like what you're saying. So the whole holiday batch thing is passed down from family to family. Yeah, no. Yeah. So the whole batch thing, what is that? Is that Kiwi culture and and interestingly, is that I think that that's [00:59:30] that's becoming a kind of a mythology because so few people actually have that and part of their family anymore. But, um, like it's not like I want you on the it's, but I kind of It's like when you actually go on holidays to be, Yeah, and then you do a clean thing. I think I think it's [01:00:00] it's like the way that you choose to have your recreation. And what is what is it that your family choose to recreation? Time is a real good indicator to get people talking about that kind of stuff. All that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think the family or, like, you know, the amount of or, [01:00:30] you know, yeah. So that's and then the last one I put in was this, um which is the is the Chinese government in the Dunedin in, um, and apparently it's under real threat of being removed because they're running out of money and the council won't. Doesn't want to fund it anymore. Um, and, um, so I'm interested in what [01:01:00] people say about that kind of stuff. Um, so that's kind of just the cultural stuff that I've been doing. Um, and that's all I think. I've got time to talk about. There's heaps, more stuff there to think about. But like I say, this group is kind of over and above the the kind of average, um, but one thing that I will say, um, in in doing the research, the privileged research project that we've found that's been really quite surprising is there is a lot less Deni because all the international literature tells you that white people are gonna deny this shit. They're gonna deny [01:01:30] it till the cows come home. And there's a little bit of that here. But by and large, I find people in their heart of hearts they very fucking about what we're talking about. They understand it, you know, And, um and I've had a lot of them come up to me later, and they've said, You know what? That is so true. It's so true. And it's so important that we start talking about that stuff. There's been a lot of that, you know, like, I was surprised. Like I thought, Oh, yeah, they're all gonna be assholes, and you get the occasional one, you know, Um, but by and large, I found a lot less denial than I thought. [01:02:00] Yes, and predominantly women and predominantly young. But there have been a couple of men, but generally they're younger people, um, and and also they're, um they're quite professionally oriented. So and I mean this is a key part of culture, right? So a key part of culture when they meet each other was the first thing they asked, What do you do? You know, so their work life, their professional life is incredibly important to who they think they are. And so so often we think, Oh, you got to know the treaty and you say, Oh, it's because it's [01:02:30] the country you want to live in And it's the this and the that that don't mean shit to them. It don't mean shit to whatever happened years ago, Whatever. But if you say to them this understanding this stuff will make you a better professional. They're all in there, you know, because that's and sometimes I think, getting this stuff across, we need to understand what are the cultural sparks for them, right? Because we know the cultural sparks for us, and it's none of that shit. But for them, that stuff is important. So if you can get the information across in the way that their culture tells them is important and [01:03:00] it has to do generally with the profession, they're very interested in money. So if you can make it anything you read in the paper. It's got a cost analysis, right? Anything will tell you how much it's gonna cost. You know that that is a real key feature in their culture. Um, that it's individual. It's about you as an individual. If you can understand some of those basic stuff, it can make the translating the message that much better. Um, one of the last things that I just wanted to mention if people are interested, I can send it to you. Was this delicious little [01:03:30] booklet that, um, someone sent me, uh, from 1985 But it was first published in 1976. And it's this little booklet. It was produced by the Pacific committee of what was then the Department of Labour. Right now, in the seventies and eighties, this country had a huge policy of inviting mainly Pacific migrants, but migrants from everywhere but mainly from the Pacific to come to the country to fill the kind of, uh, the the the workforce shortage that we had because we were having a manufacturing boom. And we needed some, you know, some some [01:04:00] clips to come and fill these sort of bottom runner jobs, factory jobs. And so a lot of Pacific people came here. So what the Department of Labour thought would be a good idea, Um was that they produced little booklets that they would give out to all the different migrant groups that were coming. So they would better understand the people that they were coming into the country. So I found this little booklet that's called understanding. It is fucking delicious people. Um, and one of the things that, um, [01:04:30] I I would just mention it very briefly. And then I'm off go. So it has the contents. And I mean, this is shit that you just never even thought of because it sort of tells you, um, some helpful hints for the work situation. Um, working with social attitudes and Customs Character society. Um, OK, so if you talk about society, these are the most common features in 1986 right? [01:05:00] And what's been really astounding to me is how durable these things have been. So they are not developing. Their culture is not developing shit. It's staying in these very kind of stagnants. These things are still really important. So the importance of economic life. And remember that they're thinking that they're speaking this to Pacific people. So they're trying to think what are Pacific people like? So this booklet kind of tells you a lot about what they think about Pacific people as well as what they think about white people. Right? Um, economic life, religious life. That's pretty much to tell Pacific people. We [01:05:30] don't take the church as seriously as you do. So you know, you need to recognise when you come here that people aren't gonna sort of do that. Um, family life. And they sort of talk about the nuclear family because you people have big families and we have small families, Right? Um, home and school, the councils, political life, how to participate in the elections. Your local MP. Um, OK, then there's the character, right. This is the Parker character. This is the one I just found. It was like, Oh, [01:06:00] man, first name and the character individualistic. The first bit. Yeah. It's like tick, um, individualistic. Next person you meet, run these things, buy them in your head, of course, and just see if they're taking in these little boxes. Individual is that everything in Western society emphasises an individual, right? So that's really, uh, key. Uh, the next thing money minded, [01:06:30] right? So money is really important, um, organised in the sexual. And I mean, part of that is actually trying to talk some of people. You can't come to work late, right? Sort of all that kind of stuff. Um, but one of the things that I found really interesting. You go right to the back with some helpful hints. And there are these kind of idioms that we all that use right that you can sort of work with, Um, [01:07:00] where are they? And they're kind of like they kind of like the little things that you can. Uh, so one of them was, like some of the phrases that parkers would use, right. So one of them is, um, have a shout or give you a shout. And so, you know, so some people wouldn't know what that means. So they're translating all these kind of really common terms, and it really sort of showed me the naturalisation of some of those language. Those discursive patterns that we use, right, um, have a shout. Bring a plate. Was another one, [01:07:30] you know, um, yeah, it was It was really interesting. So if anyone does want that understanding, it's awesome.
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