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I got involved in devotion in probably around January 1993 I had not long been back from my little OE and possibly look like I had a little time on my hands. And so various friends who were had been involved in the previous devotions are like, Oh, you should come and help with us. Come and help with that. And I think David Hindley may have been the volunteer coordinator the previous couple of years. I remember meeting him for a coffee at [00:00:30] Eva Dixon's and him with a smile, sort of ear to ear as he took me through what that role involved and handed over the list of names of previous volunteers he had. And that was me devoted. What was devotion? Devotion was at that point, I had been a big dance party that had been held sort of in big venues on Wellington waterfront. I think it was started by Peter, who worked [00:01:00] at the AIDS Foundation at the time back in 91 when I was away. But I remember thinking, man, we had nothing like this when I was, you know, at home. Bad timing. Um, and I think some of his motivation might have been around raising funds to support the work of the centre. But again, I could have just made that up. But I like that idea. I know in 93 when I got involved, there was I think 93 was the first year there was a parade as well. Yeah. And, um, the volunteers [00:01:30] that I was sort of working with were predominantly, um, brave people because we were down in shed 21 opposite the railway station, which is now, like some fancy apartments. But they it was far from fancy. There was bird shit and nasty stuff everywhere. So we did a lot, a lot, a lot of gross cleaning. Um, before we could even start to build the various bits and bobs we did indoors to hold the devotion dance party. Now, you mentioned, uh, fundraising for the centre of the New Zealand AIDS [00:02:00] Foundation. And, um, my understanding was that the that this kind of initiative, a bit like hero, um, came from, um, a response to the the huge impact that aids was having in New Zealand. And I'm wondering, can we just take a step back, say, back into the eighties and just talk about you know what? Um the the impact of AIDS, I guess on on New Zealanders, some of us lived. [00:02:30] That and other people, I think that I even people that I know now in my own generation were just oblivious, I think for a lot of us, um, it was that, like, what the hell is happening. And for me, I think I was first became aware of it. Like I grew up in greater Wellington region. I'm a kid, and I remember, like around the time of the law reform bill coming into town to go to the movies and these vile fundamentalist, I guess Salvation Army [00:03:00] Christian people just like almost surrounding us, you know, to try and force us to sign the petition and and saying horrific things about people living with HIV, which I don't think they called them that at that point, they probably called them really nasty, derogatory terms. Um, and what a dear, that was gonna be on everybody and all that blay hay horrific stuff. Yet people, our friends in and our community were getting diagnosed with this [00:03:30] thing that nobody knew about. And like when there's no information. Obviously, there's the ignorance and fear and and perhaps that fed those people with discrimination. But it was just shit, and it was really horrific. And they were our people. And so, as a young teenager, trying to make sense of that shit was just like, No, this is wrong. We need to be doing positive stuff, to support people and and try and get other people to, you know, be less ignorant to break that stuff down. So that was kind of my experience [00:04:00] of the impact. Um, initially, yeah, like in sort of the early mid eighties. And then I think I said just before I'd not long been back. I just went to the UK. And I spent some time in Scotland before I went away. I had been volunteering with the centre to, um do condom packs really like, Isn't that funny? They still do that now, but, um, and had, um Yeah, when I was overseas, I volunteered [00:04:30] with Scottish AIDS monitor Sam and had been involved in dance parties and things like that, Um, with my volunteering there. So it was kind of an easy segue into coming home and getting over my fomo that I'd missed out on the first two devotions and just becoming involved again. Can you recall what the, um, some of the other community responses to AIDS in New Zealand were other than, um, my own experience? Because I guess I was quite young and, you know, often when we're younger, [00:05:00] we're not as aware of wider community than than this sort of little bubble we live in, um, volunteering, you know, to do stuff like make the condom packs was, was what I knew. And I know that the centre and was being established and they were trying to, you know, work with people like sister Paula Britt Kelly and all that stuff around the legislation and the lobbying. And they were always, you know, she'd chuck her nun frock on to go down to Parliament. There was always [00:05:30] some MP she was off to terrify, and, um but you never saw her in that. Otherwise, her whole habit and carry on. Um, it was probably really community building in some ways, because this was something that was impacting us. And but in some ways, it brought us together and and I guess, gave us some strength because we needed to. We needed a community response, because if it wasn't happening to other communities, they didn't seem interested in [00:06:00] in trying to sort provide any support or or that kind of thing. I remember a lot. A lot of funerals. I remember going to the hospital with food, because even then, the hospital food wasn't necessarily appetising visiting people. Um, and real strong sense of we're all in this together You briefly mentioned, um, Sister Paula. Do do you have other other memories of of sister? Oh, absolutely. When, um, I remember the day I met [00:06:30] her, I'd sort of seen her in the centre and thought, Oh, is it? You know, she seems a nice older person, and she's always said hello, but I'd never had a proper interaction with her. And one day we'd, um, turn up for the condom packing. And there were none of the other a centre staff there, So she was on the phones, and I just about fell over. I heard this beautiful, smaller, older woman to say Well, yes, dear, but I don't think you are licking [00:07:00] the toilet seat. Perhaps you were, and then she you know, started to describe brimming, and I just stood with my mouth wide open going. Wow. Um, yeah. So that's one of my my, you know, more beautiful memories of sister Paula. I also have, um like, I feel really privileged to have had her in my life. You know, I have lots of memories of her. I remember when she was unwell, Um, and with her cancer and going through her mastectomy and stuff, Um, and then that leading into when another [00:07:30] volunteer who I had met through, uh, fena centre Claire had, um went through a similar journey and we were up visiting her in the cancer at the hospital. This is many years after what we've been talking about. And my own sister was about to have a mastectomy, and we were just talking about it. And you know what a bugger cancer was and Ra Ra Ra Ra ra and And they were both asking how my sister was feeling about it. And I was like, Oh, I think she's just feeling a bit weird about having her breast [00:08:00] removed. And so Sister Paula just whips out her little insert things that were in her bra and said to me, Oh, she can get some of these and handed to the handed them to me And before I knew it, I was like holding these little things that a nun put in her bra thinking what? And I was like the warm and I didn't know what to do with them. And I was like, Oh, my God, I've got a in my hand And you said Clear. I think it's better you hold these and pass them on. So she was hilarious. She [00:08:30] Yeah, and she had a, um she was, I think the, um Wellington Rainbow Communities and particularly the centre and all of us were so lucky that she was one of our team because she had humour. But she also had a real knack of getting people to come on board and getting people to do stuff like whether that was to help her move house or I know, when Wellington Women's Centre was [00:09:00] getting set up, Island Bay Library was changing its shelves. So next minute, the people from Island Bay Library are delivering the book shelves to the Wellington Women's Centre, Um and and they're just little tiny examples. But they really are. Yeah, anything and everything. She could make it happen. And she if she put her mind to it, It Yeah, you wouldn't want to get in the path if you were on the other side of that idea. So how did she get involved? Not in a bad way. You know, I'm not saying she was this horrible little terror. She was just was very determined and got [00:09:30] results. Yeah. So how did she get involved with the centre? I really don't know. For as long as I knew, she just was whether she got involved through her involvement in the, um, Human Rights Act lobbying or whether it was through her involvement in community. I'm I'm not entirely sure, but she's pretty awesome. One of the things that was happening in the late eighties and [00:10:00] early nineties was the amount of people, um, dying from AIDS related illnesses. Um, it seemed to peak around kind of 91 92. I, um And at the same time, we had things like hero. The hero festival in Auckland. Kind of coming up trying to, um I give, I guess, people a sense of hope in in in 11 regard. What was it like in Wellington in that kind of early nineties period? I guess I missed the very early nineties [00:10:30] I was away from or for all of 91 and 92. Um, came back very early. 93. Um, yeah, and I left just before the sort of end of 1990. So I don't know entirely what it was like in Wellington, and obviously, um, the UK it was quite different, but I think what you're saying was still going on when I came back. And it was it was happening before I went away, too. There was that, [00:11:00] um, that real Let's be, You know, let's be positive about this. Let's not Let's be positive. But like, you say, that desire for hope And what can we do to to hold on to that rather than go into complete despair, I guess. And, um, and with hope there was let's celebrate what is great. And I think there was an element of that through devotion, too, you know, it's about hope and looking forward, creating [00:11:30] visibility. We'd had the law reform time, you know, Um and then there was I don't know, that we were assimilating. But the next time we kind of hit the press, there was the HIV, um, stuff which received a whole lot of, you know, discrimination and nasty stuff. And we we hadn't really There hadn't really been anything that brought us back together since law reform that we just kind of drifted off into our little worlds [00:12:00] again. And I think the devotions and hero were about what do we do with this? Because we had these times where we had a real sense of community and shared cause and shared drive. And so the i think, the hero and devotion and they had one in Christchurch at some point. Freedom supported that, and and it gave us a sense of community and and identity and belonging for a lot of people as well as a damn good time. You know who doesn't want to party? [00:12:30] So So jumping back to 1993 and you were there with, uh, David Hiley who was giving you the volunteer list. Um, What did the job entail? What? What were you doing? Um um I think David must have done it for those previous couple of years and it was just getting in touch with people. If somebody organising a part of the dance party or a part of the parade had wanted help with something specific, whether it was like I talked about, there was that real need for physical, [00:13:00] grungy cleaning. But, um, there was, um I think, yes, a specific role, like plumbing or someone who could do builder stuff or someone who could perform or someone who could do catering. You know, there were all sorts of things that we'd identify as we went along that we needed help with. So it was trying to find people with those skills within our communities or networks who who might be willing to volunteer and help out because it wasn't a paid gig. [00:13:30] It was just all about community coming together to raise money for, for for our own communities and our own stuff. Um, and then there were also a bunch of people who were like, Man, I want a piece of this. And so it was about having conversations with them about Well, these are the kind of things that we need a hand with. What kind of things do you think you have and trying to find something that enabled them to be involved and contribute as well. Did the 93 party have a theme? [00:14:00] Was it themed? Oh, it might have, but that's a little while ago. Gareth Thumb. I remember that, Um because from volunteer coordinator, my role morphed into being the front of house manager on the night of that party. And I remember the, um being a phenomenal wall of water for Angela Mayne, the party director had wanted to create [00:14:30] to welcome people as they came in to shed 21. And we managed to. It was, um, all bodged together with, you know, huge plastic sheeting, and the actual water was a garden hose. I don't know if you could even buy a soaker hose then, but we made a hole with holes in it with the nails, and that made it at work and it run down. We had a few issues as the party went on with safe drainage and that the water wanted to run everywhere. The, you know, electricity was, [00:15:00] but we we managed to sort that out. Yeah, and we both, um that was the year that there was a huge waka boat to bring one of the, um, groups in for one of the performances. So that was a little bit, um, genius. And in rehearsals when the the shed wasn't jammed with, people went really smoothly. It's slight logistical nightmare when it's live, and there's, you know, hundreds of people in there on the dance floor and trying to drive through. I don't think anyone was actually squashed, but it could [00:15:30] have been. Could have come off quite quite badly, but it worked out well in the end. So there was this amazing walker on this frame on wheels that just came from the back of the shed, right down to the front where we built the stage, and that was pretty awesome. There had been a mezzanine floor in there, and we managed to build a staircase that kind of went up and down so that people could yeah, be at different levels of the party we built chill out areas. Um, I remember we had to put in [00:16:00] to meet health and safety stuff, emergency exit doors, and someone just happened to have been renovating their house. And so we're going to check out all of their interior doors and donated them, and we wired them up with, um, little metal flats and made proper crash exit doors at either end of the shed. So there was loads of different bits that went into it. None of that necessarily gives you the theme, but maybe hopefully it gives you a bit of a sense of the grandeur and the Yeah, and tell me about some of the performers [00:16:30] performers. Um, I have to tell you, my memory of one devotion to another can get really blurry. But I think because that was my first one, I can remember there were there were a whole lot of shows. I remember one show where Jerome and some others had built some platform shoes that were ridiculously high and dangerous, and Jerome was a very tall man to start with. So when he got on to these homemade platforms with wooden [00:17:00] heels, probably about an extra six inches, it was just a towering phenomena. Um, it was quite fantastic. Yeah. And, um, no, there was another show where they were pretty sure there were. It was a bunch of women who were wearing somebody in on in the show, like Each of them was wearing a different colour of the rainbow flag. Um, there were lots of great lights. I don't want to downplay it, because I know that Angela Mayne and the [00:17:30] and I think John Penny was involved with some of the tech stuff and all those people at the time just did an awesome job. Like if you'd seen that horrible bird covered, um, shared with a whole lot of old tyres and stuff and then come back on the night of the devotion party, it would have blown you away. It was fabulous. It was really well done. So there was the dance party. But you're also saying there was a parade as well. Yeah. Yeah. So another bunch of people were really [00:18:00] keen to have a parade. I don't know if it was the first one in 93 or if it was the next one, but definitely know that, um, the radio station 91 ZM it was called at the time got involved. And, um, their sponsorship team or or whatever it is, the marketing team helped support it with a little bit of financial contribution, and their vehicles were in the parade that kind of thing. I think [00:18:30] the 93 1 might have gone from Civic Square to somewhere. And then the 94 1 came from Schafer's Park and down Courtney Place. Not way before the skate park was in Schafer's park, but yeah, around the corner, down Courtney Place onto manors. And then Willis and Mercer back into Civic Square, so changed direction that year. Can you recall what, um, onlookers thought of the, [00:19:00] uh I think it was called The Love Parade. This is 93. Yeah, I think it was called The Love Parade. And then at some point, became known as the Devotion Parade. Um, I remember being in it, Just walking. Yeah, I don't remember a lot of hassle or at all. I remember being, um, just buzzing, you know, having been to pride in London and and how huge that was. And to have [00:19:30] the opportunity to be doing that in Wellington, you know, pretty much my hometown and everyone who was participating in the parade and had been involved in organising it was just really excited and buzzing. And there were a lot of people who I knew from our communities who didn't feel that excited about it, yet came down to watch it, you know, So seeing people that you knew and them just beaming. But whether it still felt a little unsafe [00:20:00] to be that out, or for some people at that time, I'm not sure, but yeah, but to see them and just other Wellington just enjoying our our celebration, our pride. And I suppose it's really important to remember that, you know, we're still only about 66 or seven years after homosexual law reform happened in 86 and there was that kind of violence coming from the ANTIREFORMERS. So I Yeah, I can see why [00:20:30] you'd still be not wanting to be that visible. Yeah, absolutely. It was pretty big. It was pretty big. And I guess reflecting it is probably a bit brave for those of us that just were like, Yeah, we're gonna do it, You know, I don't know that that much thought went into it. I think yes, we're going to do it was all that that went into it. So for that, um, devotion party, um, which would have been the third one that had happened. So, um, so I guess the first one happened on 91 2nd, 1992 [00:21:00] this third one. How many people attended, do you think? Oh, so she 21 is pretty large. And there were times when the dance floor was shoulder to shoulder. So I guess we could Google. We could see if it's anywhere, um, online, but definitely hundreds, if not around 1000 people easily would have been there. Yeah, a lot of people, I think would have a little pre party come down, um, and go all night. [00:21:30] Others might come early, then go home or go out and party on. And, of course, there were people that were there from when the doors opened till when dawn broke. No, that devotion, um, party also, um, was significant because, uh, Arthur, uh, a well known performer in in Wellington, um, passed away on that evening. Yeah, it was a really big um It was a really big significance [00:22:00] to us. And and there were a there was, And there are other community members that passed away that evening, or we got news of they had passed away the following morning, and some of us who were working the event and some of the people attending, I assume. But we we heard that news, and we were really upset, but equally like we we carried on, you know, it was almost like a nod to Arthur. It was like, awesome, man, We could throw a party [00:22:30] as you leave our world, you know, and and we're not going to stop it. And it did have an impact. It made it a little bit hard to keep being happy and enjoying the buzz for a while. But we I guess you suck it up. And you you do what you've got to do, and then you can reframe, You know, in your own in your own head with it was like a sad thing or a really nice synchronicity. Can you tell me a bit more about [00:23:00] Wow, Arthur, I am. Gosh, I mean, I I'm not that much younger than Arthur, but you know when when you are that young age gap seems a whole lot different. I think I was just in awe of Arthur. Arthur was, uh, somebody who'd been really visible and out and a part of our community for a good while. He, um, was always really supportive of [00:23:30] things in community. Like through his salon. He would always, you know, donate prizes. Or he would hold events there. Um, obviously with Hearty and Brady and the others as well, um, Charlie, the whole kind of love crew. And, um, he was something to watch. Like, on stage. Some of us are born to perform, and I think he did that with heart. Yeah, and I. I also recall, [00:24:00] um, a friend of mine, Jane Perkins, did a photography exhibition. And there was this gorgeous picture of Arthur in that which for years hung in Caspers after Arthur passed. And so it was nice that he was always around, and and now I see You know how me and Scott and Scottie and Mels have a lot of images of our people who have passed or our leaders. I think that's a really nice That's just a nice little memory I have because, um, both Arthur and [00:24:30] Jane are no longer with us. So it's one of those memories and joy. I didn't know Arthur well, personally, but I knew of him and had, you know, it was just a little bit like an all like, wow, you're Nate Shit. Also in, uh, 1993 in May 1993 there was the massive, um, beacons of hope around Frank, its lagoon. And you were saying to me earlier that you were also [00:25:00] involved in beacons of hope? Yeah, I think I am probably to my family and partners to spare. Came back after my little and decided to do a whole lot of voluntary stuff so weirdly I still do that. Maybe it was the start of it, Um, or it just solidified it. But Richard Ben organised the beacons of hope. Then for the, um, a centre. It was Wellington's response to the [00:25:30] Inter International Aid S Candlelight memorial. And we used to make, um so I volunteered with that, um, and helped make beacons. It's quite an art. We used to rely on there being a bit of a storm, so we'd be able to find the timber washed up on, like, Paton Beach or te Ta Bay Beach or somewhere. Um, And then we would have little beacon making lessons and get a whole crew of volunteers together. And, um, yeah, I I'll share the recipe. Hey, it's quite fun at vinegar. Hill, [00:26:00] too, if you ever wanted to make a beacon. But you just, um, put a bit of tinfoil around the the end of the stick, wrap it in like cotton or, like old sheets. Just wrap it round and round and round a whole lot of fabric. And then we would crisscross like number eight wire, um, or actually number eight wire and making it up. No one could do that with their hands. Unless they're really Butch Farmer. Right. Um, but just crisscross tai wire around a bit like a ballet slipper might go up a leg, hold it on there. And then they were good [00:26:30] to go for the, um, candlelight memorial, which was then known as beacons of Hope. And we would make one for every person that we knew from the epidemiology reports had died of an AIDS related illness in a And so then we would have, um, there would be speakers. There would be some music. It would be, um, the beacons would be either over the carriage to the lagoon at Frank Kurtz [00:27:00] or around it or around Frank Kitts Park, depending on which venue it was by volunteers from our community sometimes remembering somebody and they would be lit. And then, um, another part of those That ceremony was the calling of names. So you can imagine, like, for some reason, the weather was always very still. But it's still Wellington night and just the Frank K Lagoon surrounded [00:27:30] by people holding beacons. Um, maybe like one year, the symphony orchestra, some of the symphony members played just that music, and then the quiet and then just people's names being called. It was a really beautiful way to remember those that we've lost to isolated conditions. And, um and it was a really collective way to do that, because I know I couldn't really [00:28:00] articulate some of the impact earlier, because my experience is, you know, quite different to a lot of other people, um, and each of our experience unique. But to come together to do that is something that was significant for our communities and our was was is because although it's not the big beacons of hope ceremony anymore, that memorial still happens each year. It's pretty special. It's pretty important, too, I think, and [00:28:30] I guess with saying that it's important. I think what I'm kind of thinking is and want to say out loud Is that all too often people in our communities, even as recently as the eighties and nineties, would have no relationship with their biological because of homophobia, because of fear of HIV and AIDS because of discrimination. So for some people, it may be their story. [00:29:00] And these are people I've known. Oh, you're gay. Well, you're not a part of our family. And then that person may get an HIV diagnosis, and their biological family are even more like back off. You know, we don't know how to deal with this, and we don't want to be a part of you. So I think we have a I often refer to our rainbow or our I think we for some of us, that is really, really important to be able to do that [00:29:30] collective, um, remembering and celebrating and and all of those things together because that's that's still recent. And whilst some of us who may have been in that situation who are still here, that may have changed and we may have relationships with our bio, I think our logical are just as if not more important, so someone was saying to me the other day about that they thought there was still a lot of, um, posttraumatic [00:30:00] stress within kind of queer communities from, uh, what was happening in the eighties and nineties, particularly around law reform. And also HIV a I and I guess, um yeah, like, do you Do you have thoughts on? Uh, because it sounds like, um particularly around the early nineties, that these the the it was really heightened emotions, you know, heightened grief. Heightened, um, activism. Yeah, Yeah, I think that's a really [00:30:30] that completely makes sense. It resonates I. I get that and I imagine there is. And it may be that there is that PTSD and many of us are impacted by that time to varying degrees and and varying sort of other experience pre and post that. But it's probably a really good way to frame it because there was a lot of grief. There was a lot of hate [00:31:00] in your face. There was a lot of messaging and and things coming at us and at us, you know, from from the rest of the world, the rest of society, our own non queer communities, you know. But the and the communities and workplaces we lived in. So all of that kind of stuff is bound to have an impact and things like, [00:31:30] yeah, those kind of things affect us all differently. And I suspect that some of us have had different experience since some of us may have been affected in more traumatic ways. And it's I have not been Yeah, but totally. That's what I'm Yeah, I'm a green. Yeah, I think, um, for me, like if if you put it in context. I was in my early teens when I was when law reform was happening and I was being having encounters [00:32:00] with these horrible people simply as a kid with my friends trying to come into town to a movie, they probably didn't realise I was queer. They were just like, Ah, we just need signatures, you know, And Children are vulnerable. So let's let's be really horrible to them and try and make them feel uncomfortable enough that they're going to sign our petition. They wouldn't have expected, you know, this little blue eyed, blonde thing to go? Nah, that's me. And, you know, in the middle of [00:32:30] and and then to have that horrible interaction. And, um, which again was just motivating, you know? Then I found out about Dez sticking envelopes to bricks and went along and joined in. Um, but that's, um, dear Smith. So what was he doing with the, uh, the Salvation Army did an unaddressed envelope appeal around the time. And he got a whole crew of people, um, to collect those up and got a whole lot of bricks, and it had a free post on it. So he encouraged us to paste them [00:33:00] to bricks. And they had to pay the postage, Obviously. Yeah. So lots of exciting stuff came out of it. But also, it has an impact and And to go from that to the time of And then, like as a young person, so many people had met and known during those times or earlier getting an HIV diagnosis, the all of the history around, you know, the meds weren't available. The meds weren't working. Some people, it was [00:33:30] really quick from diagnosis to death. Other people. It was a really horrific time of visiting in hospital. So when you're really young person and and that is your lived experience PTSD in in one form or another makes complete sense, and I think it also forms some of that experience. I guess in some way has formed who I am and how I am and why I still volunteer and why. I still really think it's important that we come together as [00:34:00] rainbow communities to have things like pride and why I thought then the devotion Party and so on were great and why I then got involved in organising the Devotion Festival. Because the party, although I keep going, everyone loves a party, and I do, but only if I've got a job to do. You know, I don't really like to dress up and go and hang out with people. I'm pretty pretty shy about my dancing, but I think, um, that collective community stuff [00:34:30] is is really valuable. So when did the Devotion Festival begin? Ah set myself up for that. My memory is a little a little sketchy. I think it may have been 95 96 that we started the festival because I, like Peter back in 91 got devotion up and running, and I think he might have started the group called Sprung Productions in 92 and then sprung [00:35:00] became a board, a voluntary board, and that's had some continuity of people, sort of from year to year. But it also had, um, changes, changes of people on it, and different people bought different things. There was around, I think it was around again, 90 5 96. There might have been a bit more work done on the promotional kind of side of it. The marketing, the Devotion magazine [00:35:30] was, um, came along might have even been as early as 94. Um, And then we used to do posters, you know, teaser posters around town and the actual party posters and those kind of things. All of that grew to be a much bigger part of it. And it gave the events an income stream, like selling ads meant you could produce more things. Um, and the festival came about. I think, um, Lee Harrison may have done the first festival, and I volunteered and helped her with that. [00:36:00] And then I kind of picked up the festival and doing front of house. Someone else was doing volunteers by then. Um, yeah, and it was pretty awesome. That, I guess, is how I got to meet a whole lot more people in our community who, some of them, who I still know. And it was all about trying to put together a calendar. I think we just went for a week at that stage leading up to the day where there would be the parade and the dance party to finish it all off. But to incorporate [00:36:30] events that would be a bit more inclusive of other aspects of our communities so that those who you know, the parade and dance party weren't necessarily for them could still be a part of the overall devotion celebration. And so we'd have things like, um, I think that's when I first ever went to a garden tour at Des and John's Beautiful Garden And we, you know, even in 2017, [00:37:00] we had that as a part of the the Wellington Pride Festival. I'm hoping we'll have it again in 2019. Um, that was when I think it was 1990 four. I still have a printed, um, Lesbian and Gay History of Wellington Walking Tour Guide that Hugh Young and Alison Laurie did, which ties in with the the pride NZ walks and stuff that you [00:37:30] organise now. And I remember going on there and just being like, Wow, I've grown up in this city and I've heard of some of these things through my Nana and my uncles and and now it's like, Wow, this is a part of my history, you know, the my rainbow history as well as I guess you know, my rainbow in a way as well as a part of Wellington's history and to to be able to bring all of that together. So those kind of things [00:38:00] in there it was, um, when the some of the rainbow faith groups would, you know, organise a special potluck dinner or something just to come together because they were often not considered, you know, as as a part of our wider community, it felt like they were just in their own little bubble. So it was. It was nice to be able to put together work on, um and we'd have like, I don't know, we probably watched something. Some classic lesbian movie on video at the bamboo. I remember going in with the video [00:38:30] cassette and asking me to push play you know, um and, um it was just, like, trying to have a little bit of something for everyone and and going out and saying to those parts of our communities. Do you want to be a part of this to to bring it all into together again? Yeah. Am I right in thinking that the 95 Devotion Festival happened around, um, the Wellington Town hall and kind of Civic Square [00:39:00] area? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that kind of leads me to think about, um, support, I guess from the City Council and the mayor. Um, how how were the City Council in terms of supporting things like devotion? Um, my experience was so that one at shed 21 was the first that I was involved in. And then there was that one in Civic Square. Then we were in shed six when the brand new TSB arena, [00:39:30] like we were the first big event in there. Yeah, they're a little bit uptight, but thankfully, I don't think we made any cigarette burns on the floor. Um, and then to the overseas terminal. My experience was that City Council were always really supportive. I think we're pretty lucky with that in Wellington. I wasn't necessarily on the sprung board in those early days. So whether it was as supportive as it looked by the time it got, you know, down the food chain, I can't be sure. I think Wellington Waterfront Management, um, [00:40:00] were responsible for some of those venues, and I think from memory, they could have been a little more supportive, but Wellington city Council were very instrumental in ensuring that they do get behind stuff. Yeah, And I know that, um, the city Council also like with the venues, um, we're able to help us keep costs down and and those kind of things and and as it went on [00:40:30] and, you know, towards the later years were really great in helping promote devotion, Not necessarily by putting any coin into it, but just using their own coms, channels and those kind of things. And, um and obviously that's rolling through to pride these days, you know, Was it easy to get um, kind of other businesses involved in the devotion festivals? It was a wholly different time. What is now called Rainbow Wellington [00:41:00] used to be called Gap. Yeah, and that was like the gay association of Professionals. And there was that guy, Phil SMEs, who was part of Caspers who had the Poki machines. Um, and through those poking machines, I know a lot of funding was applied for to make some of the devotion elements available. There were, um, Wellington City [00:41:30] Council had an advisory group, a lesbian and gay advisory group. And they put together, um, I was involved in that Helen Dar was involved in that, um, lots of people. Um, they put together AD L Flyer. That was like a directory of, um, all the lesbian, gay, bi trans rainbow organisations that they knew of in Wellington. So that gave us, like, a listing of community groups. [00:42:00] And Gap put together one that was the businesses. So that was almost like the people that were trying to get sponsorship for anything to do with devotion had these two lists of names to contact, and it was awesome. It was just, um um and I think that the whole thing of other businesses hooking into the pink dollar was maybe happening offshore, and it started to look a little bit new, but mostly it was personal networks and and that kind of thing [00:42:30] that helped us be able to contact places to raise money. Whereas now you know, it's like OK, OK, that's so last week, you know, you've got to pitch it a little harder rather than yeah, although we're naughty with it, too. I remember that, um, wanting to organise a barbecue for the volunteers, for one of the devotions and, you know, wanting to get some sausages sponsored and just going to some butch not necessarily connected to our communities in any which way that I was aware of butchery [00:43:00] place and saying, Oh, look, we've done this thing and and we've had all these awesome volunteers and we're raising money for the AIDS Foundation, and we would love some sausages for the barbecue. And just the minute you kind of said gay and AIDS and you saw a little bit of, like, shit, I've got to get them out of my shop. And they handed over the sausages, so, you know, play it, play that fair for the for the good as well, So so has the, uh, AIDS foundation. The art centre. Always been the kind of beneficiary of the devotion festivals. Hm. [00:43:30] I think that was the in in the initial years. Absolutely. I don't know that the parties ever made a hell of a lot. I know that. They then went on to fund, like, self fund themselves, you know? So the first few years, I think that was the focus. And then it was about being sustainable and and being able to break even. And if there was any money left, where would it go? Was often a discussion that [00:44:00] the board would make? I can't recall. I think there may have been one year where they did it, like an application process. And various, um, organisations could apply for any funds that were left over. I may be confusing that again and making history up, but, um, yeah, I could certainly find out for you from people who would know that jumping forward to 1997 and that was a really big year. I've seen some, [00:44:30] um uh, footage on TV about, uh, the the devotion, uh, party happened in the old town hall. Um, you had, uh, Gareth Far Lilith doing the midnight mass. Um, And you also had a really large parade. That was, um, uh, protested by Christian fundamentalists. Tell me about that year. Ah, the Wellington town hall. Year was great. Um, yeah, the Christian Fund. They were fun. We So the parade [00:45:00] that was that parade, I think, was probably the first one that had a lot of buzz and excitement around it. We've done it before. People knew what to expect. And and that year we definitely did have the support of the radio station. So they were able to provide some vehicles that some organisations could decorate up. It was totally, um, community, though, you know, they were probably the only non community, although they were [00:45:30] kind of definitely allies. And, um, they there was just like, every community organisation you can think of. I think that was the year someone did a Priscilla bus. And it might have been, uh, poly Filler's first devotion as poly filler. And I recall, um, a very young poly filler, Still very gorgeous. Then, um, walking along with this Priscilla bus and there was a real sense of fun and excitement, and I know my own photograph collection. You know, I've got photos [00:46:00] of me that people have given me, and there's like, there's these two photos. There's me taking a photo of Claire O'Leary taking a photo of me taking a photo of her, and it's fantastic. Um, we were all pretty excited, and and that's the year I think. I said. We came from Schafer's Park before it was a skate park around in down Courtney Place onto, um, that little bit of Willis or onto manors and then turned into Willis and Mercer and back into Civic Square. [00:46:30] Just as we got onto manners. There seemed to be a little murmur of Christian protesters, but we didn't really take much notice. And and one of the great things about our culture is that when we're in fabulous, we're in fabulous and we're witty and we're quick, and, um, they got some pretty sharp barbs back. And then, as they may have run ahead of us, or it might have been that just that coincidentally, a lot of them looked the same. But there was a massive posse of them with placards [00:47:00] And what have, um, just on the entrance into Civic Square from the end of Mercer Street? And they were quite abusive and they were quite horrible, and I know a lot of people got upset, but there was. I remember the people in the parade just all be going like, don't give them the time, ignore them, you know, Or don't let them upset you. This is ours. And there was a bit of a sort of standoff and a bit of yelling, and we just carried on. And I think I don't know whether there were people from their community in ours or whether the police intervened [00:47:30] or something. But at some point, they seem to get shut down. And they didn't really manage to bugger up the party. So that was great. Yeah. And then, um, like you say, the party that year was in the Wellington town hall, which was so awesome, and it also took in Civic Square. So, um, that year I just participated in the parade, worked on the festival, and then and then was doing front of house for the party. I, [00:48:00] um God, personally, I made such a mistake. I have really bad hay fever. And I had this idea. I was gonna grow a dress out of live grass, which I managed to do, but all the grass seed was still kind of attached to the and I was just sneezing and sneezing and sneezing, welcoming people and doing front of house. But I I've learned I've never made a live grass dress before. Um, not before again. Um, yeah. So that night there were all sorts of fun activities out in Civic Square itself. There was those little I mean, [00:48:30] it doesn't really sound fun when I describe it, but those little go kart things that are made out of old toilets And there was other fairground attractions and there were the coach was able to be out out there. And, um, there was just roving kind of stuff happening in entertainment. And then when you went into the town hall, there were more things I remember. There were those sumo wrestling kind of costumes that you jump into And, um yeah, and having to take [00:49:00] most of my costume off to be able to get into it and, um and yeah, and just having a lot of fun, you know, lots of fairground, kind of side fun attractions as well as there was the chill out space. There were particular, you know, designated spaces for different things. And then of course. The stage with the shows and the the dance, dancing and all the various D playing and and And the big main town hall itself, which was pretty beautiful [00:49:30] felt pretty special for us as a community to, you know, be in the town hall. Yeah, nowadays, you're kind of like me, but, you know, it was it was pretty exciting. I'm just trying to remember, as I talked to we may have had two years in the town hall. Um, because when I talked of my live grass dress earlier, I remember being there in another costume. So it may have been 95 96. We did that two years in a row, and [00:50:00] somewhere in there we had another, um, devotion party at shed six on the waterfront, which is right next to the TSB Arena. And we had the party in both venues. It was pretty soon after the TSB arena had first opened, and I remember them being pretty anxious about the flooring surface because it was some special, really expensive stuff for sport. Um, that was played in there, and they rolled out a special floor [00:50:30] cover that they had incorporated into the design for balls and the lakes, but they're a bit worried about the debauch devotion crowd and what we might do to the precious dance floor. But we seem to manage not to grow in the place in it. Yeah, but that was an exciting one, too. Like what? Um, we set that all up so people would walk up the stairs from Frank Park into like a corridor, um, at the TSB arena, and then they could go down [00:51:00] some stairs. We built into shed six, where the the dance party was There was like the cafe, but and the chill out space and that kind of thing and then get their devotion dollars to go to the bar and and then connect back through into the TSB arena, where the big dance floor space was going off. And, um yeah, and as people walked up initially to go through that corridor to get into one of the, you know, actual party spaces wherever they were going, we set up [00:51:30] these, I guess P plants with walls, so you kind of had to zigzag through it. And on each of those, there were different representations of different parts of our community. So, um, we tried to highlight There were the leather queens had a had a couple of people up there. There was a lesbian, kind of They were almost, like live artworks. You know, they weren't just stood posing or whatever, but just just gently interacting which whichever way they were, they were gonna be Yeah, and and it made it quite a fun [00:52:00] entrance and inclusive. So was 1997. Was that the final devotion? That was the final devotion. And it coincided with the night Papa opened. And again, um, I was doing front of house there, and I recall Lilith. Gareth had performed to open devotion and then had to get to Papa to perform there for the opening night of that. [00:52:30] And, um, just recall, because that was at the overseas passenger terminal, which isn't a huge distance unless it's dark and you're in heels and a wig. And, um but I recall him coming screaming out of the overseas passenger terminal going Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I've only got five minutes to get there and just hurtling, you know, um, down the down the waterfront to towards to make his next event. So that would have actually been, uh, 1998 I guess because was, I think, opened in 1999. So [00:53:00] I think is, um town ha. Well, town hall 98 would have been the overseas passenger terminal. Right? So we were two years at the town hall, then I think, and we were at the TSB Arena and the last one was the overseas passenger terminal. So that's Yeah, that's how I couldn't work out where we were two years at Town hall. Yeah. So can you describe the last devotion in 98? I guess at the time, [00:53:30] we may not necessarily have realised it was going to be the last one. Um, but I I remember we worked really hard to create different dance spaces because for some people and we'd had feedback, you know, from some people, like the music has no words. It's just I want I want to be able to dance to something I can sing along to, um literally that was That was the feedback. So we had worked really hard to have different [00:54:00] DJ SD Jing in different spaces in the overseas passenger terminal. I don't think for me, it had the same level of excitement. Although I guess in the previous ones doing front of house, I had been able to be in more in and involved in the in the party. But it just it was a great night for other people. You know, when you're doing in front of the house, I guess it's you've got a job. It's a bit hard to enjoy it as much. Um, [00:54:30] yeah, it was probably No, I'm saying we didn't necessarily know or think it was the last one, as we were doing it as I reflect. Probably was heading towards winding down like the dance party thing wasn't quite. It wasn't for everyone. You know, we had other other things going on. There were like they'd been hell for leathers being organised. There'd been lesbian boys. There were the [00:55:00] university dancers had, um, from years back. It kind of disappeared, but was starting to come back in a different format. And I think that after that last devotion, the the remnants of the then sprung board went on to become the group that did the first, which was the new university dance up up at the Um, yeah, and that was probably just a better size for [00:55:30] than than thinking of those huge, huge venues down in Wellington to make them viable. What do you think? Uh, devotion's legacy is wow, I guess it. It's definitely of a time in a generation. It certainly ages you when you talk about devotion, um, with people that you're hanging out with now and they're like, What was that? You know, I. I don't know. That devotion [00:56:00] actually set out to have a legacy. And if we did manage, if if there is anything, I guess that community connectedness that some of us lament and others would rather know our ankle off and think about Yeah, like it. It certainly served its purpose of providing a space and a place for people that were going through some really hard stuff, whether [00:56:30] they realised it or not, um, to come together and have a sense of belonging and that collective strength and the nonbiological, all of those things, as well as remembering people that we'd lost celebrating pride, um, and And that grasping or not grasping no grasping is bad. But that desire [00:57:00] for hope, you know, we'd come out of law reform and HIV was happening in our communities, and the impact of that, we'd we'd all come together and kind of then I guess devotion came in a nice time for us to to consolidate that almost post law reform. And and those other times, that's what I think, what others think, Who knows? And And we we we talked [00:57:30] a little bit about, um, beacons of hope and how you had started volunteering with that in 93 and then, um, taken on the mental of organising it. Um, a few years later, perhaps, um, can you maybe just talk briefly about how, um, that event kind of changed and moved into into what it is now? I guess. Yeah. So beacons of hope in the earlier days probably [00:58:00] was as well as an opportunity to remember those people who were dying at a hell of a quick rate. You know, people were being diagnosed and dying in a really short period of time, or people who were our that were overseas were being diagnosed and not necessarily even getting home, or some were managing to come home, but they would had left New Zealand, you know, and as one person and come back as a really unwell person simply to die. Um, there was loads going on around [00:58:30] it, but the the beacons of hope the international AIDS Candlelight memorial is, I think I said a little earlier. It's that really important thing of remembering and having a space to remember collectively, Um, and also in a space where you can be in that huge crowd and just be right there on your own, but in a in a supportive, supportive and safe environment. To do that, I think the bigger ones were almost as tical in some way [00:59:00] or no. Actually, no. The earlier ones were very emotional in community, and it didn't matter if you like closely or immediately knew or anybody who had passed away from an AIDS related illness or or any of that. It was just you you came along to. It was a real community thing. Then it started to be that the numbers of beacons that we were having to make and like and get people to carry was getting ridiculous and we couldn't get [00:59:30] It was it was kind of like you were asking every person that came to the event to hold one, which was quite powerful visually but also logistically, just hard to comprehend. And it had started to become a bit like one of those events on Wellington's calendar that the public came along for a look at which maybe took a little bit away from what it was about. So we tried to. I think the technical word is small by it and make it more meaningful [01:00:00] again. And so to do that, as well as to manage that logistical thing of enough people to hold the beacons, we started to make floating candles, which were again pretty rudimentary. It was a plastic milk bottle with a candle concreted into the bottom. We had lots of volunteers help us put those together, and the numbers were phenomenal. And we used to recruit volunteers before the event to be sure we'd have enough people to place the floating candles on Frank K's Lagoon. We [01:00:30] did all sorts of stuff, like put a net under the bridge, um, get permission from the Harbour Master and volunteers to sweep them up later. So we didn't damage the environment, but, um, and they still looked beautiful and it was a lovely representation alongside the calling of names and all those things that made up the candlelight memorial. And then, I guess as things changed with treatment and, um, the health promote promotion messaging kind [01:01:00] of managed to slow the rate of infection. Um, and the yeah, the meds were meaning that people were living longer with HIV, um, some people that it became less a part of our everyday world. And so people maybe were like, Ah ah, maybe I won't go. It's cold tonight, you know. And so the numbers of people attending dropped and so perhaps [01:01:30] became, I guess maybe on the inside really important, obviously still, to many people, but to come together and publicly acknowledge it, there was just a shift, and I think those things kind of impacted it. And so the event became smaller and smaller, and part of it had always been, um, there was like we used to have a church service. It wasn't I don't know. Is it non denominational or interdenominational? [01:02:00] But it wasn't like any particular, um, focus. But that was like the how it would start. And then we would have the parade with the from there to the lagoon, where the candle light that was gonna be. And in the old days, we'd carry the beacons to there and they'd surround the lagoon, and then we'd have the ceremony. Um So as it got smaller, it became that of having just the the indoor, but [01:02:30] like whether it was in a church or a hall or those kind of things. And I know even now, you know, from year to year the attendance may be a very small group or a large crowd, just depending on what's going on in people's worlds and experience of people dying from AIDS related conditions or significant anniversaries and that kind of thing still a really important event. And, um and nice, that small finding it [01:03:00] didn't mean stopping it. Yeah, it's interesting. Just kind of, uh, looking at and charting how these events, um, kind of blossom and then kind of, um, small and depending on what the community actually needs at a particular time. And I guess my final question is kind of just going back to, um possibly the devotion parades. [01:03:30] It was 20 years, um, before another pride parade actually went through. Courtney Place went through the streets of inner Wellington, which was in 2017. I think it was. And I'm wondering if you can reflect on that 2017 parade and also, um, the, uh that came to out in the park. I think this year, um, how do they differ from the parades in 1997 and and the earlier ones? [01:04:00] Yeah. Um, I just, um sorry. Before I get to that, just what you're saying that about how things sort of blossom and and change size and shape. I think that's, um, illustrates quite awesomely, the community led response that we all have unwittingly, you know, um, had to various things that have happened throughout our our shared history. And, um [01:04:30] and it's kind of just hearing you say, that made me reflect and think, Well, that's great. That that these community events are community led and that they were then and in some situations, perhaps reactively, like reacting to the law reform, protest and that kind of stuff. Um, but equally, the law reform was community led, um, and and that that they occur proactively, too are really um, yeah. Thank you for saying that It was just nice to to think of it in that way. [01:05:00] Um, coming back to the parade stuff, Um, whilst it's like so 97 was the last in 2017 was the next time there were, um, a couple of parades that were part of Wellington Pride Festival prior to the 2017 1. And those were walking parades. So the I think the may have been wheels if [01:05:30] for people on, like, skates, roller blades. And there were, I think, in the 90 not 96. Gosh, got me all decades muddled up out here. But in the 2016 1, there were some of those, um, bikes with the sort of thing on front which we dropped a couple of drag queens in, you know. So there were walking parades. There was the one that went up Cuba Street, um, around Cuba, duper when it became out in the car park as well. [01:06:00] But the 2017 was the first one where we did road closure again. As as our communities. Um, the the difference. Did you say the similarity? What was it just reflecting on? I think that like I talked about in the earlier devotion ones like the first loved one. I was really mindful of people who are part of our community, just for whatever reason. But again, [01:06:30] on the back of that, it was so close to law reform and maybe for safety reasons, not being 100 Sure if they wanted to be a part of it, but definitely noticing them down there loving scene, it happening. And then some of those people joining in in other years. I think now there are, um, people who don't necessarily want to be a part of it. But it's part of our rainbow culture to go down and watch it, which is a different thing to not be a part of it. I think that [01:07:00] back in the earlier days, it was very, very community focused and community led. And sure, there were some allies and and and that involved, which was great because our community then, you know, um I know my mom and a lot of other people's moms, and we're a part of our community, you know, it wouldn't be the queer fair if you didn't see so and so's Mom, or it wouldn't Yeah, you know, Um, so they [01:07:30] were all involved then, too. The difference now is that it's gone to like going to night time. This year, I think, has made it a little less accessible for some of the younger people in our community. I know back in, um, 97 and that, like both Nick Tansley and Pauline Gillespie, who were working for that radio network at the time, were like, [01:08:00] we have to do this at night. We have to do this at night and for years, Um, Malcolm Vaughan, myself and Nick would talk about that, and we'd never get around to it. You know, it wasn't like we had to do it at night, and it wasn't like just because Auckland are it was just other things were happening. And I think that parade kind of thing had disappeared out of Wellington with devotion disappearing. Um, yeah, a nighttime parade is pretty neat. You can have all the different lighting effects and that kind of stuff. I think daytime [01:08:30] works awesomely because it makes it more accessible to younger members of our community to be involved. Um, but also it makes it more accessible to an even wider audience, you know, or or the wider Wellington communities because most of us are awake and out and about during the day. You know? Um not personally, not always on a weekend. But, um, I liked that last [01:09:00] this year rather early this year. Um, the people that were organising Wellington pride and out in the park realised that just a little ahead of it and so very quickly pulled together a which brought back the walking parade. And and it was about, I think, they said for the young and the young at heart, and it was about providing a really focused space for those people to participate. It's still I'm pretty sure that's going to happen again next year, and I think it's great [01:09:30] to do that. But it still feels a little other as well as honouring and including in whatever way we can to work around it. Yeah, I think the Pride Parade, also like internationally, has become a bit more of those that think the pink dollars, all that you know. It's become a a thing that a lot of organisations businesses will put in their corporate social responsibility policy. They'll put a little bit of sponsorship [01:10:00] money towards that they probably pay a whole lot more sponsorship to other sectors to get the same visibility. But they want to look like an ally. You know, they want our business, so it's not is meaningful to me anyway. And I'm I know you know, I've talked to others who it's not as meaningful a community event when it starts to look like that. But I think it's still great that we can have pride events happening. I think they're really [01:10:30] important and always will be. You know, we need to celebrate our culture and our communities and the communities that make up our community within that or else we'll lose them. You know, we don't want to assimilate. Think about, um, a thing I sometimes say in conversations with friends is remember when um, James thought the state that Maori [01:11:00] was in It's almost like we need to be careful or we're gonna need somebody to set up. We we got to remember that we have a valid and valuable culture and history, and to celebrate that and keep it alive rather than assimilate and and lose the special that that is.
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