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Not many people can say they were born on Willow Street, but I was, although as my mom said, No, you weren't you were born in Kalla because that's where the house was was and Will Street. There was a private hospital. So quite a few people of my age, uh, who were born in Wellington were born in Win Willow Street. Malcolm McKinnon Malcolm mins one them. I think most of the MCs were and we actually lived around the corner from the So that goes back [00:00:30] a bit. We were in Kalla, and that was, uh, December 28th, 1939 right at the beginning of the war, the time when most gays were getting shoved into concentration camps. Rather daunting to think about that. Anyway, I was born and we grew up in Kalla, which then was, I think, getting into that rather classy suburb the white middle class attitude thinking you're the youngest of your family. [00:01:00] Yeah, being the youngest of 41 sister, two brothers. And that was being a young lad at that time. Now, how about you, John? I know quite a bit about where you were born on that, but you have to go back to, um, June the 8th. 1929. I've got 10 years on you. And, um, I was born in West London, and I grew up in Hammersmith and shepherds Bush all around West London. [00:01:30] And, of course, um, it was the early thirties. My father was out of work. There was a depression on, uh, things were a little tough for a while. Um, but the the family got through my mother, unfortunately, was not a very well woman. Um, she had diabetes. Um, by the time I was 10, things, uh, you know, the war clouds were sort of deepening over europe. And [00:02:00] Mr Chamberlain come back and saying, you know, almost right with the world. But unfortunately, uh, war was imminent, and I was one of the group that was evacuated from London as a as an only child. I was not terribly happy about this. Um, but there's a photograph of me which I think you've seen carrying a back pack on my back and a a brown box which had a gas mask in it. And, um, we got onto the train with no idea whatsoever as to where [00:02:30] I was going and you know, the whole school. Well, most of the school went I'm sure there were one or two parents who didn't want to lose touch with their Children. So we sort of rode this train and we had no idea where we were going. Uh, we ended up not very far away from London at High, which is just about 30 miles. And I was with a couple who I think had been shanghaied into taking a child from London, [00:03:00] and they weren't terribly happy, and I wasn't terribly happy. And anyway, that went on for a while. But shortly afterwards, I set what was then known as the um Oh, I don't know what it was called. I forgot what it was called. It was the 11 plus exam That's right. And that got me a scholarship through to ST Clement Danes Holden estate to grammar school. But of course, by that time, the school was no longer in, and any sort of pupils were evacuated to that [00:03:30] had to be in Oxford. So I was sent to Oxford at a very early age of 11. But I was also sent down from Oxford at a very early age at 12 because I got very, very pissed off over there. Uh, I was not very happy in the hostel. I started wetting the bed. I was unhappy, wrote a postcard to my parents, threatened to walk home, started swearing at the matron and ended up in front of the headmaster's office the day my father arrived to pick me up. So I went back to London early 1941 [00:04:00] and was there while my father, who was in the fire service, uh, fought the fires in the blitz in London. So it was a sort of chequered childhood. And, of course, the wartime rationing was there. And anyway, um, cut a long story short. Mum died in 1944. Uh, the war finished in 1945. But before that, I'd sat school. So it and, uh, managed to scrape through, I think because during the French exam, we had a flying bomb hit the field [00:04:30] and explode. So most of my French was done under the desk, and I still like getting on the desk. Um, but, um, it was yeah, Well, it was it seemed ordinary to me, but if I as I sort of recount it. Now, I guess it wasn't all that ordinary. Oh, And what did you do in the war, Daddy? We both were affected by the war. Uh, and John, [00:05:00] of course, been older than me. Uh, more so, in many ways, being in Britain. But New Zealand was not alone. And I think one of the tough things was for my mum. Rationing was in place. My father, uh, had a job which didn't take him to war immediately. But there was talk of going. He did join the home guard, and this gave him free time not only to guard the, uh, people from invasion, but I think it was to guard [00:05:30] the woman from, uh I don't know, but anyway, he he was a quite a And so, of course, at the end of the war, when he walked out the mom leaving four kids, that was a tough going, And you didn't have social, uh, network. And of course, I do remember, uh, those hard times. Uh, yeah, during the war at the end of the war. Interesting is there was only [00:06:00] age of zero going up to five. And yet I can still vividly remember quite a bit about that era. So it must have left a deep impression very shortly when the war finished. Um, actually, I was I was in hospital, um, for VE day, which was May the 8th 1945. I'd had some sort of breakdown. I suppose it was a stress thing. Um, and that was so shortly after mum died. So [00:06:30] I'm sure my father wasn't very happy with what was going on in his world at that time. And then, of course, I went to work for a while. I got a scholarship which took me to the London County Council, but she had a scholarship to go to a council job. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Um, Anyway, I was there for a while, and then, of course, I was conscripted. This is what happened to teenagers at that time at the age of 18. It wasn't a ballot as it was here. You know, if you had a birthday when you were 18, you [00:07:00] were conscripted. Unless you were you know, she was sick. Uh, and I had great dreams of sort of joining the Navy or doing something rather like that I ended up in the Air Force, had an aptitude test and was found that I was suitable to be a wireless operator. Teleprinter operator. So I had something like eight months training in Britain and then was sent to Singapore. But I was absolutely bloody useless as a wireless operator. Teleprinter operator, [00:07:30] I can still do you know what your best be faces did. It did it, that sort of thing. But that's about the extent of my expertise and Morse. Uh, but it did help with my typing because in those days, we were taught to type messages on an imperial typewriter which had capital letters only. And I still have problems changing from upper to lower case. Yeah. Um, but anyway, it it was a useful base of understanding [00:08:00] where the letters were on the quirky keyboard. And I actually quite enjoyed the Air Force when I got to Singapore, and I have to confess, I think substantially it was the male company who founded it, and there were a few incidents there which enabled me to explore the sexual side of my life, which I hadn't had much chance to do before. And you you weren't conscripted, were you? Uh, it was compulsory military training. [00:08:30] Until I think when I reached, uh, 1957 it would be, uh, something That's when they changed it to a ballot. And but everyone had to have a medical, uh, which I enjoy, especially kick the ball. But anyway, that was part of the compulsory medical. But then they balloted as to what birthday? Your birthday as to if you had [00:09:00] to go on, um, compulsory. Well, until you were interested in training, but I didn't have to which both of my brothers did. And if it's a good thing or not, I don't know. But I think to be trained to kill doesn't sound a very nice thing. And I don't know. I just think it reinforced the machoism of my brothers that you would [00:09:30] have, um, entered the workforce around about that time. Yeah, in 1957. Uh, all nice boys. I was told by my mother went into a bank. So they included you. Yeah, into the bank. And then, um, to me, who had a very creative side. The sort of work involved in a bank was very, very boring for me. I, I just really did not fit in. So I thought I would [00:10:00] go and do B com like everyone else did. And I had one year at university, but I didn't find a science degree. Uh, a unit and a science subject would count towards Bcom. So instead of doing accounting or one of these boring things, I did geology. So and then I was told that, um they didn't want academics around the sort of bloody thing. And I thought, Oh, well, I think I might give this a miss. And so then I went and worked [00:10:30] on a nursery for a while and mhm. Yeah, Well, the job I had with the London County Council was actually held for me by, uh, the my employers during the whole time of my air force service. So I went back to it for a while, but I was very unsettled, as you can imagine, you know, sort of disappearing into the wide blue at the age of 18 under, um So the air [00:11:00] Force terms was really quite a change of my life. And, uh, I began to think I don't really want to do this, so I tried several jobs and, um, yeah, but I did make some very close friends, and one of them actually had the same birthday as I did, which is not surprising, because we were all sort of enrolled at the same time, according to our birthdays. So, you know, there were several people who had birthdays, the same as mine, and one I particularly remember a guy called Ian [00:11:30] a very nice guy, uh, who worked in the legal firm. But we got very much involved in tramping and hiking and sort of scrambling around the hills of the lake district in Britain. And, uh, I just loved it. It was absolutely wonderful. And, you know, if we couldn't get up there, uh, we would go locally and the and the downs around Brighton or South southern England, it was it was quite delightful. I became a very ardent youth hostel, and at one stage, [00:12:00] we went over to Ireland, and, um, that was fascinating. Never. Dr. Much Guinness in my life, the ladies were so friendly that, uh, we walked from basically walked from Belfast down to Waterford, which is quite a long way down the east coast. But we did get a little lift at one point. So, uh, south of Dublin. But, um, again, we stayed at youth hostels, and I just found it brilliant. And I still enjoy walking, [00:12:30] so but I don't don't manage hills quite as easily as I used to. Yeah, you mentioned just before that you had some relationships in in the Air Force. Can you tell me when The first time when you kind of found your kind of sexuality? Both of you. That's that's difficult, because yeah, I, I guess. Even at school, there was, um during during school. [00:13:00] Of course, lots of teachers have been conscripted and particularly in the geography here, for some reason. Or rather, we had something like, uh, eight or nine geography teachers, and several of them were just put on what was then known as the scope, which is a a sort of, uh, PowerPoint display where the room was in the dark and these slides went up. So there's all sorts of fumbling going on in the back row. Uh, so guys saying [00:13:30] look, mine is bigger than yours, this sort of thing. So I mean, there was a certain amount of, uh, yeah, experimentation at school um, but I think it was It was the Air Force. Really, Which first sort of made me think. Well, this guy's a very nice man. And the fact that he's a man makes him particularly attractive. Um, yeah, there were There were one or two where we had sort of, [00:14:00] um, sexual, uh, Congress. Would that be a nice word? And, um, but it wasn't always terribly easy after you were in a barracks with 35 other people, you know, it was all a little little furtive except for the occasional body. We got very sort of flamboyant and sort of lay on the bed wanking. Say you aren't I clever, boy, sort of thing and tempting others to come. There was evidently sort of horseplay and hotter [00:14:30] if you built like a horse. And no doubt, uh, I've never seen a horse. I'm sorry, but yeah, there was, but there were some nice people. Oh, there was one Scotts guy. Uh, when the lights were out, we we used to go and, um, sit. I'd either sit by his bunk or he'd sit by mine and the hands would be under [00:15:00] the blanket. Yeah, and that was that was interesting, but that was that was as far as it went. I don't know whether that answers your question or not well, with my sort of, um, honesty. But yeah, but sort of a late starter, I think, might be the phrase because growing up with two older Metro brothers and a society that [00:15:30] said, you should conform and not be different, I think that was a struggle and it was expected of me to get married, have kids and do everything that society predicted. And I think that stop me sort of venturing away from what people considered Norm. And I do remember some incidents in [00:16:00] when I was working there of going to the ward baths they had male and female, separate and male were naked. I enjoyed the nudity. I thought it was great. But at that stage I also enjoyed the fact that I could admire naked bodies, and I do remember two Americans arrive all over suntans and obviously were flirtatious and getting aroused and thought, Wow, this is not right And so I didn't further that very [00:16:30] much. I've been getting felt under the water, and I didn't sort of progress until I think I started travelling. And when I started travelling around the world, that was when I was 30. And then I started to explore my sexuality. But then it's interesting you just said that this is not right because it does reflect what the attitudes were. What was on me. Um, is that, um you know OK, what [00:17:00] I was doing, what I was feeling was really not, as you say, normal. It was something outside. Of course it was illegal. Um, so I did, uh another factor to it is made life really quite difficult because I mixed with, um, what happened is my brother. He built up quite a large building company. They did like commercial work, and I was working in the nursery, and I always had a love of plants [00:17:30] and was very keen on plants. But he told me, um, that if I came back to Wellington and did a adult apprenticeship and carpentry, then we could move into doing spec houses. I would design gardens and design work, and but I had to help also with building. And as I did have already under my belt was school certificate. I took three years to get an adult, uh, to get a trade certificate? Uh, yeah. [00:18:00] Got the, uh, a trade did go for advanced trade. And that is how that knowledge of why I built this house myself, but my planting and gardening was the thing that I was more keen on. But of course, um, mixing with that you mix with people who are pretty macho, and you had to sit through the jokes. And also, I remember [00:18:30] one of the guys who was going into partnership with my brother because there was, as I said, a large firm. He had about 14 guys working for him. Um, one of the things is he did relate how they went to San Francisco. Groups of them. He was with the volunteer Naval Reserve or something and how they would bait guys in the toilets. I mean, uh, when they got their cock out and it got hard, then they'd take them out and beat them up. Uh, delightful things to, wasn't it? [00:19:00] And anyway, uh, that sort of didn't help. But once I had my exams and I was ready, uh, I always wanted to travel, so it wasn't until I was 30 then I took off and travelled for five years and first of all, living two years in New Caledonia and where I learned French and I did find a game as we were constructing homes that have been precut in New Zealand that you are mixing in that circle [00:19:30] of macho bulldozer drivers, plumbers, et cetera from New Zealand or Australia. And that's people you mix with. But I did know going to Europe. But, uh, learning French would help a lot with travel, and I enjoyed it. So that's when I really got started learning French, and now, uh, I don't know if well, John knows, But, um, I do tours at in French. Just me is that I'd [00:20:00] never realised it before. Is that both you and I sort of left home. We stepped out of the environment in which we had grown up. Uh, and we both thought we needed to do that to be ourselves. But the one thing by learning French, because it got to the stage where I had to translate for these Kiwis in English, and the woman who actually ran this working man's camp where we first stayed said about the quickest she'd ever known anyone [00:20:30] to pick the language up. So they always kept calling me for translations. Like someone walked in a Frenchman walk in and everyone spoke English, and they'd say, Get there, get there, you know, and And this gave me some sort of esteem because one guy said, Oh, we thought you were a little bit odd. You're a little bit feminine or something. And but he said no, you're a really good guy. And, you know, said you're a great asset for us to have around. Yeah, obviously. [00:21:00] But, um yeah, anyway, anyway, uh, John and my self, we both now share that passion of the French language, which is wonderful French culture. Really? Um, no leaving, um, Britain for New Zealand was, in some ways, an accident. I. I said earlier that I was unsettled. I'd had two or three jobs, and I think I probably got out of one job. Before [00:21:30] I was sacked, I worked for Jason swimwear, and somehow it didn't. Joel and, um, I used to have lunch with a friend, uh, every so often, and we walked past what was then the New Zealand High Commission in Leicester Square. and they had. They were in the criteria hotel. They had this small window advertising and immigration scheme. You know, we want bridge builders, carpenters, all this sort of thing. [00:22:00] So we didn't take a great deal of notice that we knew it. And then one day we said it says office workers, and we looked at each other. Hm. So we went in and came up with pictures of sheep and sunshine, and here I am. You know, it wasn't the sheep I might add that interested me, but, um, it it was a gamble, and you had to go through medicals and examinations and tests and checks and all this sort of thing, and we had to leave, not from London. But we got onto the ship at Glasgow, [00:22:30] and as the boat pulled away from the water and I saw the water between me and the end, I thought, Oh, shit, I'm going to New Zealand. But then it took me 40 years to go back because I found it absolutely wonderful here in so many ways, people were very friendly. Uh, the ship was a bit crowded and most people were from Glasgow, so I had a few language difficulties there occasionally, but, um, it was it was the right thing to do. The job was fine. The people were fine. The accommodation [00:23:00] out at Trentham camp was fine for a while to have found somewhere else to live. And yeah, it was good. Never regretted it. Well, we both got many tales to tell. We move on a little bit because I could go on for quite a while about some of the things that happened travelling around Europe and we living in Britain and travel around Europe, North Africa and North America. But, uh, do we do we go back to sort of how we met? [00:23:30] Would this be pertinent? Yeah. I, I think that's good, because I can still remember seeing John sitting on that couch when we went to that lunch. Yeah, it was quite a few years back. I can still remember and thinking, Oh, I like that one. He was busy talking to someone who I think fancied themselves more than, uh, more than what other people did. But it was John who, uh, took my attention. [00:24:00] It was it was quite interesting. I was talking to someone else and Suddenly I was aware of this electricity on my left hand side, and I thought, Who the hell is this trying to butt in? You know, and I'd seen this man before because, like many people were on the steps of parliament when the infamous petition against law reform was presented. And Des, at that time, was it a bobbing up and down [00:24:30] in his tank soliciting money for advertisements to press for the law to go through with the same age of consent, which I supported. So I gave him money, and I've almost been with him ever since I bought him, you see, but, um, we didn't know each other at that time. Um, I did see him again very briefly one night at the Victoria Club. Um, but he was very [00:25:00] busy. I was obviously very aware of this man. And suddenly he appears at this house warming, which the then director of our was having up in. And, um, we got chatting, and, uh, I was living at the time in and was here, got chatting, and he said, Well, would you come home and buy a buy A. And I thought name is man, I live there. You live there, you know, Wrong [00:25:30] side of the triangle. Anyway, he had I said, don't think so. And he headed off to his car. And I thought, John, you're being stupid here. So went and got his address as he took off, followed him home. Bingo. And we, uh, made instant contact as it were, and then very shortly, we had a I packed my here. We like to go out again, you know? And we went to the School [00:26:00] of dance annual graduation performance at the opera house, and they were, And we've been going to those graduation performances virtually ever since and in that time. But of course, the first few years, John having his home and must have found mine, uh, but getting together regularly or pretty regularly. And if we didn't get together, it was phones. And then it was sort of like those bloody cats you had out there [00:26:30] needed feeding. My daughters did the big OE or oh, Emma was actually down at Canterbury University, and I think roof was in Britain and they left him with three cats and 500 pot plants. You know, uh, not many pot plants survived. It's not all the cats survive, and the neighbours were very good about sometimes had to leave. I better go and feed those cats, like, two days down here. And [00:27:00] but other than that, we've hardly been a part of all. I don't think, um, other than myself. Uh, well, John being involved in theatre because you had the rehearsals, but that's not going away. And then at the time, of course, doing to the land. And that takes me away for quite a few hours most of the time spent together. That's how I like it. What year did you meet? Well, [00:27:30] I think it must have been 1987. It was 19. September 1987. 26. Yeah. Before we talk about your relationship, can you tell me a wee bit about what New Zealand was like, Say, from the 19 sixties, through to the eighties in terms of of kind of homosexuality? Yeah, it was, um I left one with a sense of apprehension. I would think I mean, um, I didn't explore my [00:28:00] that side of me. In fact, I thought, Well, you know, it was probably a a passing thing to some extent, and I met this wonderful woman. I used to go to, um, recorded music evenings. Every so often, one would sort of go to someone's house and you set up a programme of of this, it might be, or it might be a mixed programme and chat and have something a bit like the French evenings that we have now only with music. And, um, I met Adrian and we [00:28:30] got on very well, and, uh, we decided to get married. And we did. She was from Ireland, and, uh, she lost a lung just before we were due to get married. And she was Catholic, and I wasn't. And, um, anyway, it worked very well. And then, um, had two Children, which was a little bit of a surprise, because a woman with one lung is not going to find it terribly easy to have your Children. The kids are are good. They're very good with and myself. [00:29:00] Um, that took a little while, of course, because I imagine that they'd have been they were very attached to Adrian. And, um, another woman would have raised problems as well, let alone another a man, you know, um, but um she had cancer, and we had a difficult few years together at the end. And, uh, she went into Mary Potter hospitals on our 20th wedding anniversary. And after that, I had two [00:29:30] girls on my own for about seven years until I thought I should do something for the hospice because they were bloody wonderful. And they were They still support what they do very much. Uh, but I tried it and couldn't cope emotionally. It was far too close. I do. So I thought, What else do I do? And HIV was very sort of very much in the news. And I thought, Oh, I could do something with the [00:30:00] AIDS Foundation so long, then got accepted as a volunteer. And, of course, it was, um, not entirely altruistic motive, I'm sure because I knew that I would meet, came in And, um, I did. I lost a lot of them, too, unfortunately, but Des was at that time also a volunteer and our paths cross and bingo. But the, uh, you were saying about [00:30:30] 19 sixties? What I would like to add with that is that was my early twenties up to late 20. It's in the 19 sixties, but a lot of poofter jokes and a lot of about, you know, guys who would dare go with another guy. But it all was a start. I think of more visibility because that was the era of Carmen and Carmen. Uh, [00:31:00] yeah, not with us anymore. But Carvin did something to the psyche of Wellington. It was her flamboyance and the whole drag queen that was thrust into the face of the population of Wellington. And there's no doubt about it, Carmen and be which was the nightclub and the coffee bar. And, um, Carmen's the cafe she had and, uh, Vivian [00:31:30] Street All that was a wonderful thing. And I remember going to at John Street, they had the winter show. They called it and you'd be there and Carmen would arrive with an entourage. And it I was just fascinated. And also, uh, announcer Peter Sinclair, who was well known for being flamboyant and visible, And Peter Sinclair was not a drag queen but very [00:32:00] flamboyant gay man. And all these was setting in motion a change in thinking and that rather dull white middle class, uh, sort of Wellington. It was the coffee bar the coffee bar, which she had the six o'clock closing of the pubs and the six o'clock throw out. A lot of them wanted to go elsewhere, so the coffee bar manifested and the coffee bar scene was quite something, [00:32:30] especially when you had something like Carmen's. It was Carmen's coffee bar, and the was upstairs when, um where the library is now. And I remember going up there because stag parties were often held at the or you'd go up there, uh, for your Christmas do you'd have at work with all the builders, and then you go to the Balcon, and, uh, of course, there's all this going [00:33:00] on about these guys want to suck your cock and all this sort of talk. But that was all sort of a change happening. I think you're right, because there were a lot of people that Asian and I knew who would say I was gonna have coffee at Carmen's place, you know, And this was your your white middle class society enjoying the difference and revelling in the and by being there, actually supporting that difference in the code, the code she had [00:33:30] you'd have heard of the code. Yeah, John, heard of the code. The way you placed your cup is what sort of sex you wanted was on top or whether the cup was upside down or Yeah, that was It was it was quite interesting. So that that was, uh, Carmen Peter Sinclair. I was just trying to think of anyone else who sort of stood out at that time in the sixties. But things changed. Seventies. Most of my seventies was [00:34:00] spent out of New Zealand coming back here, Uh, until the latter part of the seventies was concentrating on building my house. So the seventies wasn't sort of, uh, to me, uh, well overseas. It was, as I said, lots of tales, But getting back to attitude at that time, I could never, ever have come out at work. Um, I sort of worked my way through to [00:34:30] moderately senior positions in the in the public service, but I was aware of one or two people who had come out who had made it quite clear that they were gay and they got no promotion whatsoever. I mean, there was a distinct discrimination against gay guys, and, um so, you know, for sheer livelihood purposes. There was no way I could say OK, no way. I could do what it does. And I have done today you be visible because [00:35:00] I do think that being visible is still crucial. And was it Fran Wilde who said, you know, the TV S? Visibility and vigilant? I think we need both of them. Yeah. Dez, can you talk to me just a wee bit about some of your overseas experiences and and how they, um, changed you coming back to New Zealand? Well, first of all, uh, flitting with an Australian who was a sex maniac heterosexual. The [00:35:30] disappointment that his attitude was sick. So, you know, if he could screw anything, he didn't care what it was, but he used to park his car or his van. He was a, um, a sheet metal worker. He used to do duck for the, um, some of the big buildings they were doing for air conditioning. So he had this very large van, and he used to go down to the military. The French military. Um uh, what do they call it? [00:36:00] Uh, well, anyway, well, it was where all the military, a lot of guys from Tahiti used to come in, and this was them doing their military service, which is well, I presume it still is and was compulsory. So you had a lot of young, uh, military men in new Mia. And I remember Liz coming and said, Oh, well, you said, you know, I put my car, put my car down there. You don't have to wait very long. And a guy was sort of walk around your van [00:36:30] several times and you say you open up a door and he jumps and sucks you off. And I thought, God, he has all these women. And then then some guy sucks his dick, And I thought, Oh, you know, maybe that's what I'm like. And I thought, Oh, that's all right, you know? So what? And I thought I'd give it a go sort of thing. Yeah, and, uh, were you circling the van or I don't think I need to know this, but anyway, that sort of started changing [00:37:00] my attitude. You know, if he can do that. But I didn't want to label myself. I thought, Oh, no, I'm just a a liberated person. I'm not gay. I'm not heterosexual. I'm not homosexual or anything. I'm a liberated person, and I'm like and I can do anything. But I still remember him sort of running around the flat in the morning with a heart on saying, I wish you were a homosexual. I'd stick this in your mouth. So that was the start. But when I went over to Europe and Britain and and, uh, travelled, [00:37:30] and then I found out that I rather enjoyed some of the nude beaches there, and some of them also had areas where, uh, they were just men. And I thought, Oh, that is even better. And so I drifted down to, um, Israel. I went down to the Red Sea, did diving, found that in the sand dunes at night. It was rather great and getting felt up by a guy and thought, Oh, this is all rather fun. And then going to Mykonos, the famous beaches of Mykonos, the paradise [00:38:00] super paradise in Alan, the three beaches where the new beaches one is straits and one is, uh, gays. And the other one is, uh, people who have got incredible wealth. And so exploring those three beaches, the gays don't have incredible work. There were gays on the other beach. But anyway, uh, that whole sort of change. And I remember when I went back to London, I thought, Oh, you [00:38:30] know, how can you explore gay bars or something like that? So that all all started changing. But coming back to New Zealand, um, in the late seventies, all of a sudden I felt this sort of restriction of New Zealand and, uh, but then again, I got very busy building the house and, uh, sort of got involved with settling down. I thought, Well, maybe I could settle down. And an American woman I had met while I was travelling through the States decided she'd come over. I just suggested Well, maybe she'd like to come [00:39:00] and see New Zealand, but she came with the hots with the idea of marriage and when she saw the house and the size of it, this is, um Oh, I am a dick. She decided this is where she was going to live. Advertising costs more. And anyway, that was quite a complicated issue, because here I had a family say, get married to her, get married to her. You can't just live with her and I thought, No, I don't want to get married. I don't want to get married. I don't want to get married with that woman [00:39:30] MU a that all that all finished. And then, of course, along came homosexual law reform. When I totally came out and got very involved in homosexual reform. Tell me about the homosexual law reform. What? What? What did you do with that? I did very little. I was very aware of it. Um, but I had two daughters on my own at that time. Um and I guess I sort of wrote the occasional letters to the paper or gave a bit of cash [00:40:00] here. Active very, very lightly. I. I just wasn't deeply involved and certainly nothing as deeply as there. Yeah, it was just not a practical thing for me. It wasn't when the bill first came out, but, uh, I think it was I was busy, actually, landscaping. I built the house and I was just doing some landscaping outside. And I was building a, uh, a stream effect in the bottom [00:40:30] lawn area of our garden. And I listened to talk back, and I just couldn't believe what By that time, I'd made some gay friends and still didn't consider myself gay, but more as bisexual. And I sort of heard what people were saying on talkback, and I just couldn't believe it. Um, not generally, but I listened to talk back, but I had been doing a small job for a woman in and, uh, she said to [00:41:00] me, uh, another woman I got, uh, went past and she said, Have you heard the talk back? I was a national radio person. I said no. So I've listened to the talk back and I listened to it here, and it was just incredible, because what we found out afterwards, the fundamentalist Christian sect of America had sort of advised people how to stop this bill going through. And that was one of the things get on, talk back, make sure we get on that. And of course, uh [00:41:30] uh, immediately I wanted to give another viewpoint. So this woman who, uh, this woman who I was doing some work for, said, uh, look, come in and use the phone any time and get on talk back because she had a relation who was gay. And she said she got me some more material and I read quite a bit. And another friend gave me a book. [00:42:00] So I was becoming more articulate. And so I got to know Paul Holmes as, uh, producer Mary Anne and and also him. And because what happened when I rang up, the phone lines would get jammed with all the aunties. So she said to me, We will phone you at 11. 30 then you say something and then what? We We've only got room for two more calls [00:42:30] and ads until it's midday, when they finish the talk back. So they rang me at 11. 30. I used to put in a good plug. And then So Paul Holmes was, um, was very good, because I remember when homosexual law reform went through, we actually also gave him a bouquet of flowers. But what happened was that they created a group called Hug Heterosexuals unafraid of gays in Auckland. And that came on the television. And then it came on the, um [00:43:00] on the radio and the news. And Maureen, I remember Maureen Walker, whom I was working for. Still friends of her there came out to me. I was working outside, she said. We've got to get this group going, she said. Have you heard about it? I said Yes. She says, Well, come in and we'll see what we can do I said, OK, so I rang up. Paul Holmes did the usual thing, and I said, Anyone interested in forming a group, uh, in Wellington, The hug? Well, the thing exploded. It just, uh I gave [00:43:30] my phone number my private phone number. And, uh, and because at that stage, I didn't care. Damn. You know, I was on a roll, I think. Anyway, I gave my private phone number. That phone did not stop ringing, and it was all positive. There was one guy who rang up. He was, I think, a Pacific Islander. And he started talking to me about why are you supporting people who stick things in each other? And then I spoke to him, [00:44:00] and then I found out I think he's gay. And then I spoke to him, and I actually turned him right around, and I thought, Oh, this is good. Anyway, we had the first meeting, um, in the old library, Uh, a small room that was underneath we hired and, uh, we got donations. We got, uh, committee and this house downstairs was like a big office. We got a typewriter and we got a desk. A woman offer to be the secretary. We printed [00:44:30] stuff. I saw me friend Wild. We went up to Parliament and it made the bad. I bought untold stuff on there on their copies because the guy said to me, This is an expensive way to do it. I said, Oh, yeah, that's all right. And I used to go up there and I used to stay there until the machine I run out of ink ran out of paper, just broke down. In some ways, when we have got I eventually joined up the gay Task force and then from Gay Task Force. Um, [00:45:00] we had different strategies and also put posters up right through Wellington. There were more posters in Wellington, I think, than any other place in New Zealand. But, um, there was a a young woman of 16 rang me up and asked if she could help. She was still at college, and she's now well known authors. That's, um, Emily Perkins, Emily Perkins and Emily Rang me up and, um, to help. And I said, Well, come out with me [00:45:30] after school and we'll put posters up, which we did. We littered the place of posters because we had enough funds coming in. We printed off hundreds at a time, and, uh, I was a few Jewish people organised with hug, and they went overboard with these posters. We had more than what we knew what to do with, and but I remember I put captions on them, but I printed off the machines at Parliament, so it didn't cost us too much. And there was a guy one of these, Uh, I think [00:46:00] he was a bit insane, though. One of these, uh, sort of so called Christians going around with a paint scraper, scraping them off. So I said to Emily, Look, every time he does that, we'll go and put up six more where he scraped it off, which we did. Then I put a ladder on the back of the van and she'd hold the ladder and pass up the glue so he'd put them all up high, how to frustrate a Christian. Anyway, we did all that sort of thing, and um uh, a lot of media. Uh, [00:46:30] I was with gay BC. They rang up and asked me if I could do reports, and eventually they got me doing a regular programme. And then John joined in on that. But the other thing is, And before the bill was passed, our first meeting of gay task force was to affair we thought about and F for. And so that was the first gay lesbian fair. So I got involved with that, and we went around [00:47:00] to try and work out where we would hold it. Newtown school seemed like neutral territory, and also it was, um, a reasonable cost. Whereas something like Town Hall was exorbitant couldn't afford that and continued with that fear the next year, the two who helped me with that weren't interested. So I ran it on my own the next year and completely funded it. Um, we had to pay everything in advance, and I funded out of my own money because I wasn't earning much running around [00:47:30] because I gave up work. Totally. Uh, but what I did, I rented out two rooms of the house which gave me an income and fortune. I didn't have a big mortgage, but, uh, it was, like, two years, No income. Uh, other than renting out rooms and sort of doing a few odd jobs here and there. I did a few garden jobs just to keep some money coming in, but virtually devoting myself totally to getting this bill through, and also next time was to ensure that the second [00:48:00] fare was a success. And it was, and I made a profit. Not only did I pay myself back, I had some money in the bank to keep, uh, making sure the fare was OK. What year was that? First fear. That was 1986 January, March 1986 because the bill was passed ninth of July 1986 after that. So the first fear was, Yeah, it was in, uh, the second week of March, [00:48:30] I think was the time we selected and, uh, it was just held in the hall. It was, uh, and the next one was the third one. We expanded into the grounds, and then it grew from there. And then John meeting up with John was great because he also helped with the fair. He was entertainment manager and the 10th Fair was quite a blast and the final one. But there was enough money from that fund that I created to [00:49:00] on the 10th anniversary of homosexual law reform. We had 14 events over 14 days, and quite a lot of them had to be funded. And, uh, that was the money that at the time, and we developed this exhibition called Two Years of Fury and we used the law school and the old government built it. Um, and it was wonderful. Absolutely fabulous. Who Who's the Who's the centre guy? Bill Hastings [00:49:30] was deputy head of the law school, and, uh, he facilitated things for us. So we got this exhibition together and it ran for a fortnight. And, um, the various other events went on dinners and the tour. The lovely bus. Funny things. I still remember that Young and A and Laurie decided to have a bus, a historic places in Wellington on a bus tour, and [00:50:00] they were standing up commentating and we were all sitting down looking out and the bus stopped. And Alison Lary said there was a lesbian club here before, and everyone looked at the bus and It was a new factory called Tongue and groove. The bus exploded. They actually exploded. Laughter because Alison here is standing there. What the hell are these people so funny with that? So there we are. That was, um that was That was good. Yeah. That was one of the events we had plus a [00:50:30] dinner at. Um uh, it was Marcus play. Yeah. And then we had, um, uh, a big party at, uh, the, uh, grand room. What they call it in parliament. The the straight ahead of you. And we had a big party there, but we were not allowed to sell liquor. We had [00:51:00] to provide it, which we did. And, um, yeah, so I remember, uh, some people getting rather bit high on that, and we had entertainment as well. But the entertain was very good And Sue Dunlop. And unfortunately, Sue died. Uh, but I remember Sue Dunlop. Whenever I wanted entertainment. She would always be so obliging and so good. And yet some [00:51:30] gay guys I know want to know how much money I was going to pay them. And, uh, yeah, I remember still paying one of the amount of dollars and gave them as cash, and I staying there. Busy counting, making sure it was all them. I thought, No, you don't do that. Yeah. Why do you think something like hug was so successful Because gay homosexual law reform was clinical? No, not homosexual reform. Sorry. The homosexual Law Reform Society. [00:52:00] I think they called themselves and that was a a bunch of academics, uh, from university, not necessarily gay people, but they were a academics, and it did sort of have a clinical feel. Um, gay task force was for gay lesbians. Hug, with its bright bright pink badge, and its catchy name gave a chance for people to [00:52:30] be involved who were not out, were friends of gays or family. And it was all of a sudden people feeling frustrated that they couldn't do anything with what was happening in New Zealand. And when you think about it, the opposition had so much money, and a lot of this was American money. But that opposition came with full page ads against the bill and every paper [00:53:00] in New Zealand. Now, the presentation on the steps of Parliament, all the but it had all the hallmarks of Nazi Germany. and these people were so militant and so, uh, bigot head, that the people and basically New Zealanders are just even those ones who might have made the jokes or said, SN [00:53:30] things about homosexuals all of a sudden realised that, you know, there are people who are gay, and here was a chance that they could do something. And I think that's why it was an incredibly, uh, quick growing group. There was those remarks, uh, like the frames. Who? Those brothers who always seemed to be anti gay. Um, they made comments like, Oh, everyone who joins Hug is just a closet homosexual type attitude. [00:54:00] But that wasn't so. I mean, I met some wonderful people through that people like Shirley Smith, who was a lawyer and also she was the wife. As such, uh, she gave generously to hug. Every time she saw me, she'd give me $50 sort of thing. Then she'd apologise that she hadn't given me any money recently would give 100. I mean, people like her people like Lloyd Gehring, who I admire so much even now, I mean, that guy is still putting out. I mean, he's in his nineties he's still putting out some [00:54:30] wonderful lectures on life. People like him. Uh, people like Divino White House. And I mean, you meet these wonderful people and these people are an inspiration, and they have a comprehension of what this world is about. That's an intellect. Hm? I think you know, you may think of the support that came through for the civil Union [00:55:00] bill, too. It really came from everywhere, didn't it? Yeah, because because in all New Zealanders, if you're going to criticise New Zealanders or I don't know if it was a criticism, you could say that That's how I feel. They are reserved, but they're not conservative. Conservative means no change. Reserve means you're going to take a while. And that's not a bad thing. And I think we can say that we are, uh we are reserved. [00:55:30] We don't sort of, although sometimes I don't know if I'm very reserved, but I rather like a comment when South Americans do come to live here. One of the criticisms is that we don't have that sort of Ra Ra ra and flamboyance and and yeah, and sometimes when you see people on the street and just black and grey, and that's the colour and, uh, without the flair, not like the wonderful saris of India [00:56:00] or or the colour, but that is not a bad. But we We have changed considerably over the years, and I arrived here in 1956. I was astonished. You never really saw people saying goodbye in an affectionate way at the railway station, whereas at Waterloo or somewhere in Victoria Station, people will kiss and cry or whatever. Uh, but now you see it, and I think that's why people do express affection. [00:56:30] I wait for the day when we can walk down the street, hand in hand, comfortably without somebody crying faggot after us. I look forward to that. It's it's bound to go, but it will take a while. But the, uh, I think this is where I like French society. We are found in living in French society. We have found that the French were not so judgmental. They met you. They just made a few inquiries about the sort of person you are. They either liked you or they didn't like you as to who you were, [00:57:00] rather than putting you into a box like your job and, uh, the way you look her your sexuality, there was far more. Uh oh, yeah, yeah. This guy's got an interest that I follow along. He's funny, and I somehow fitted very company into French society. Also, I'd rather like the way kiss on both cheeks, male and female. He also likes the cakes, the patisserie. The first time we went to France, together we put on 8 kg. But that's another story, isn't it? [00:57:30] Getting back to when you guys first met. Can you just tell me, um, what attracted you to each other? Oh, yeah, I guess the the vitality. I mean, I remember days from the his activity on the steps of Parliament. During the presentation of that petition, I thought, he's a man who's got a spark, and that spark is continued. It's still there. And, uh, you know, obviously, uh, physically [00:58:00] attractive to me too. And warm Open what else to say? You know, just bingo. It was It was, as I said in my submission on civil union, Bill uh, way, way back. It was love at first sight. Now I remember your smile, and I still look at you now and say, Oh, you're so cute. Oh, dear cute. I'm not so sure about that anyway. [00:58:30] But it it it's there and it's it's it's stayed there, which is wonderful. Yeah. Can you describe each other? How do you describe another person? Yeah, I. I, John always feel as has a very good intelligence and he can laugh and he can smile and get a bit shit. He live it should he lose his. But [00:59:00] we can do things together. And I think this is the joy that we're both sort of drift into each other's interests and sort of absorbed them. And we do things together and they've overlapped. My interests have expanded because of this. And I think, And also when we go out, we engage with people and we engage with those this the people that we both engage with, that we both like we [00:59:30] did the Myers Briggs test way back. This is so Paula. Brit Kenny put us onto this, didn't she? Basically And there were interesting parallels. De is, as is probably evident this afternoon, much more of an extrovert than I am. But we're both there. We're both at the same end of the scale, the same range of interests, the same range of is quality is the right word or characteristics that, uh, sort of basically, uh, defined. And, [01:00:00] uh yeah, there there are the aspects of DES which, you know are are quite fascinating. I mean, his enthusiasm for so many, his ability to retain information about, you know, plants and things that you really gets Me I can't remember sort of Latin names and things. And he came. Um but we both like words. We both like playing with words, Don't we like [01:00:30] which, of course, you hear if you go to the vagabond in Paris, that was said to me in Paris a guy who we were from New Zealand and he came up to us, he didn't speak English and he said to me and I go back to him a palm tree from New Zealand. He was a palm expert and he knew New Zealand only by its palm, and that was its botanical name. [01:01:00] Immediately he was I was quite staggered that he came up and said that, but he was staggered because I immediately replied as to what an unusual approach to the let's put it like that. But he gave me his email because he'd never been to New Zealand. I said, Well, maybe you should come and have a look at, which is the Nico Palm. And, uh, it was one of those addresses you put in your pocket. I mean, you clean [01:01:30] your pocket out and it disappears, so that never followed. But, um, yeah, that would have been rather fun if I could have contacted them again. But we have had a number of leaks through what we tend to call the Pink Mafia or the, uh, because we had met some French people here. And then we met them again in in France and had dinner with some of their friends, and then their friends came here, and it sort of snowballed, you know? And, uh, we [01:02:00] had a couple of guys here from, uh, last week, Uh, who? We'd not met before. Um, they run a boarding house of a B and B in in in France and wonderful. They were such joyful people that were so interested and interesting. And we had wonderful dinners. We sitting here and it it was like being in France in some ways. because the dinners went from the gin and tonic on the veranda to, uh, sort of coffee at half past 10. At night? Just Yep, [01:02:30] yep, yep, yep. Practising our French. It was very good. That's digressed. Where do we go now? Well, civil Union, I suppose we go to well before we get to the Civil Union. Well, this is where we ask you how long you've got. No. Maybe this leads into the civil Union. I'm wondering, can you describe how your relationship changes over time? How has it changed from when you first went out together? [01:03:00] Well, it's changed as much as II. I think this is probably learned to tolerate my thoughts over the years. Uh, and that would be reciprocal. I guess not that there are many, of course, but, um, I, I think mellow, don't they? In relationships, I mean, um, passion changes. It doesn't disappear. Uh, but II, I guess You know, at my [01:03:30] age, the fervent lust is is there quite as frequently? Um, but, um, we still have fun on all on all levels. And that, I think, is one of the one of the joys of I see is that we? We have a lot of fun. You know, People say how how long have you been together? And we told them, How do you manage it? It's fun. It's great fun. Yeah, it it took four years, so we we never allowed anyone else to enter our [01:04:00] relationship. Actually, it was very, very monogamous. But after that, we we have reached out a little bit to enjoy the company of someone else. And I think this is the way relationships sometimes evolve and long as neither of us are missing out on fun. And I think that's the main thing that we still look after each other. If there is somebody else involved in our relationship and I, I think that's how it has changed [01:04:30] in that 20 26 26 26 years of a relationship together. Hm. But that must also mean things like, um, trust and honesty and talk to you. Couldn't get away with anything. You got that from my daughter. She said, Be careful. Those hawk eyes [01:05:00] will watch you everywhere. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Trust trust is essential and is basic to any long term relationship. I would have thought we are honest with each other. Yeah, yeah, and I think that's important. And, uh, far as I'm concerned, you only get one shot at this life and make the most of it. But I do feel also that to contribute. So [01:05:30] when you leave, it is a better place. Uh, To me, that's important. And while you're doing that, have fun. Yeah, don't sort of dwell on things. You can't regret anything, and you can't change what's happened and important to be you who you are very important. I think that's the advice. I certainly agree with the regrets that there's no future. There's no point in regretting things. [01:06:00] Uh, you might sort of temporary feel sorry, but you can't sort of hang her after something which didn't happen or something you should have done. You just It's a It's a question of moving on. We all make mistakes one way or another and, uh, made a mistake. You move, and I'd like to think more people Christian authority. Half our battles do go, and people just accepting what some nutter tells them [01:06:30] they should question instead of that blind faith. And, uh, if someone's in a family where they have strong beliefs question it. Don't just accept that what you've been told. I can tell you how to live, but I don't mean to say I've got the answer at all, But I don't think you should tell anybody how to live. Yeah, but a lot of people like her. Uh, but if [01:07:00] you can see it by example like John and myself, I do call it water syndrome. But by being visible by appearing in the dom post by appearing in express, um doesn't mean I don't feel as if anyone special, but I do feel by doing that we are helping society by saying, Oh, those two guys be happy together. Why can't I be type of thing? So by being visible and set [01:07:30] an example like nowadays being involved with restoration work of native trees, I'm far more committed to planting native plants now than exotics. Where way back I was more, uh, wanting to have that balance of I always like native plants. But now we're doing some restoration work around by railway station. One of the people helped me want to put more exotics, and I said, No, we'll do a good job of natives and someone's going to come and say I like [01:08:00] that if we put exotics and they say, Well, I like that, that's OK But if we can do a good job of just natives, then people are going to follow that, and to me, it's important that we preserve what we've got. And this is important in the gay community that we are visible and people see us and say We like that We like those two guys and I think it was Tony Simpson did say during the Civil Union bill. He was out at a dinner and we'd appeared in a paper. This is not [01:08:30] gay people. It was just a whole mixture of people and one guy. Oh, did you see those two guys in the paper? Uh, they're our age sort of thing. And they, you know, that really was quite something. You know, I only wanted to get some recognition of their relationship. So this visibility and set an example to me is important on that particular issue. And we are simply a suburban, settled, reasonably stable couple and [01:09:00] non threatening to anybody, which is possibly why we must show our surprise. We ended up in this roller coaster ride, having first of all, started up the civil Union Bill Support Society. Get Peter Peter Dunn, who was saying, you know, simply pink thing on the part of the Labour Party, and, uh, nobody wanted it, and the bill hadn't even been published. And we got really, uh, little uptight with Peter Dunn. And he had the temerity during the course of the campaign [01:09:30] to say to me, It's nothing personal, John. Oh, shit. Peter. It couldn't be more personal if you tried your opposition. You know, you're trying to stop me having something which you take for granted. Yeah. Anyway, talk. Talk to me now about the civil union bill and and also getting civil union. Oh, OK. Well, that that was That was a wonderful experience. Really. Um, I don't know if we were set up on that, but [01:10:00] it was It was on the first day, but what happened was that, you know, we got the bill, um, and bit between our teeth. Really. Against Peter Dunn, we publicised the civil union Bill support Society. We got lots and lots of support. It was wonderful. Unfortunately, we weren't relying on typewriter and things like the law reform days. It was all computerised, and we could email. And anyway, we made [01:10:30] a our submissions, and we wanted to give an oral submission. And somewhat to our surprise, we found we were caught up on the first day. And, of course, the press were there in droves. So I got very emotional. In fact, I cried. Um, it's Yeah, it it was It was It was a very tense thing, sort of being so personal and so out for me at that particular moment. But afterwards, uh, [01:11:00] Nick, we that was a different time, wasn't it? Anyway, I'm sorry, getting confused here, but Nick knows the Dominion wanted a couple to talk about the bill and prepared to go public. So we did. We sat on, talked to Nick, and somebody took a picture on the steps of parliament. And then it was a roller coaster. Thereafter we seemed to become Well, they called us the poster boys. But it wasn't our doing. We just sort of. [01:11:30] But we'd go along the streets and people would come out of rest and say good on you, wouldn't it? Yeah, it was It was moving, uh, interesting though, Um, the thing that I think that motivated us was really when Peter Dunn tried to get one part through but not the other part through was If you live as a married couple, then you only receive benefits as a married couple. [01:12:00] So in other words, you had no rights, but you had all the responsibilities. And that's why we that's why we instead of like quite a few people, criticised us, said, Oh, why don't you just go for marriage and forget civil Union? But it was important. Civil Union Bill did go through because it was obviously that we were going to have rights, no rights, but would have responsibilities and by no right by having not having that right, [01:12:30] wills can be challenged no matter who you are. And if you do have a bit of paper to say you have a legal relationship, then that does well. The challenge is less likely to be successful, and it was a pragmatic decision to I mean, I think we we both really wanted marriage in the first place, didn't we? Yes, we we debated whether do we support this because it not only doing homosexual law reform. To me, it was 16 or [01:13:00] nothing. You were equal of heterosexuals. And I remember saying that I don't care if that Bill goes, does go, doesn't go through. It has to be 16 or nothing. And then I thought, Do I say it's got to be marriage or nothing? But when realising that we were going to and we were not we we're not getting younger and that it was a good idea. But we did have a chance. People of us and now people of our to have their relationship legally recognised. [01:13:30] And this is a game with the marriage bill. Uh, when we changed to the marriage act is again, I think a very, very important piece of legislation. It was equality and human rights. Pragmatic strategy. I don't think we would have got merged through eight years ago. I really don't. Um but we gained a hell of a lot by that by getting a civil union, and it was never a numbers game. It was just an option. I mean, nobody is forcing anybody [01:14:00] to get married or to have a civil union, and certainly no was forcing any, uh, religious minister to officiate at any such, uh, event. But, um, it's it's an option that everybody should have. Whether they take it up is another matter. And I'm all for marriage. Equality going back to the mid two thousands when civil unions were were, um, going through, um, the bill and we have things like the destiny [01:14:30] Church march in Wellington. They were so helpful. Yeah, what? Tell me about how what was your response to something like that? That big destiny Church march? I Frankly, I thought it was wonderful because I picking up something, said earlier, He really don't like that sort of thing. And I think whoever put them in black, whoever enough is enough and this Hitler type march through town, he said. We don't want this. This is But on the other hand, [01:15:00] there's always the possibility that most cubs don't give us stuff one way or the other, about what gay or want or or need. It's it's not an issue because it doesn't affect them on a day to day basis. Um, but I think it did, um, crystallise some of people's opinion that OK, uh, we don't want to see Destiny Church sort of winning this battle and they would come out in support. Well, just [01:15:30] reinforces my bigotry about religion. On the whole No, it is. Well, I just was horrified, you know, here we are, 21st century New Zealand. Uh, other countries, unfortunately, have still got a long way to go. But New Zealand, No, we do not need this. We do not need these religious fanatics. And you certainly don't need marches that coerce Children as young [01:16:00] as eight. You know, apparently expressing their opinion by wearing the t-shirt. You know, enough is enough because they don't understand what they are marching for. I think that's child abuse. I saw a woman at a civil union rally. We had all these balloons with orange and orange and white with the colours, and we had these orange and white balloons with civil union printed on them. And this woman came up. She was smartly dressed [01:16:30] with two Children, and she, uh, told her to instruct the Children how to pop these balloons. And I remember standing up there and, uh, of course, fortunately, we did have a megaphone, which is very nice. Awesome megaphone standing up and saying Now, look at this woman. Now look what she's doing to those Children and that's so wrong. So immoral anyway scurried off. [01:17:00] And then one of these so called Christians came over to borrow, wanted to borrow the megaphone to say a prayer. Get real. It was our day. It was our day. It was the day I think the bill was passed. It was a Thursday. I remember we we we organised ourselves down at Parliament and we had a little stage [01:17:30] and a sound system. Played music, had a megaphone. It was great, That wonderful disabled woman who woman who was vocal about the aunties she had a son or brother who was gay. So she had. She was disabled, but she came up in a wheelchair. She wanted the megaphone. Boy, did she let those so called Christians. I don't know if I'd repeat all the words she gave to her, [01:18:00] but unfortunately these people sometimes look on themselves as martyrs. I try to work out. I tried to reason and try to think, Why do people need religion? It's all about hope. It's about fellowship. This is what they want. But there's other things we can do for fellowship and hope is surely, uh, hoping to make it a better world for other people. But most religions [01:18:30] don't. I think we just need this belief in a god you might be talking to an avowed religious gentleman here. Oh, I might convert him. No, I. I can't understand as to why they want to think there is a God. And who's to say there's a God, you know? 1234. I don't know. [01:19:00] There's a whole lot we don't know, but there's a lot we do know. Hm. What was that feeling? Like when civil unions passed? That was wonderful. Oh, great. I was I was in the house at the time. I was in the public gallery and we thought we had the numbers, and it was it was touch and go. But, um, yeah, it it it was a failure of Wow, that that's magic. And, um, you know, there was lots [01:19:30] of hugging and people crying, and it was just I think there was a sense of achievement. I have felt a sense of achievement because I thought I'd actually been part of helping to get it forward or helping people to understand what it was all about. So yeah, I And then I ruined that because several of us then went to the S and M bar or whatever it was at Royal Oak. I did the karaoke [01:20:00] there was There was Tim Barnett there. Um um and Mackay and me, The most appalling karaoke was stuffed up the whole evening. We were having fun. The bill went through, the bill went through, but it's the same day as he was released and our pardon or whatever it was. And it was quite a day, [01:20:30] as far as I was concerned. Yeah, yeah, that that was magic. I was delighted that there were no smoking because I have an allergy to smoke and my eyes actually swell badly in the smoke atmosphere. I've always been told to avoid it and very hard to avoid smoke when it was in bars and restaurants. And by that time, of course, carry Prega who follows her to act as her, um celebrant. And we didn't even know she was a celebrant. [01:21:00] You know, we we know carry because she visited the neighbour who was also a midwife. And, uh, we got to know there and, uh so We were delighted. And the thing gave the momentum from then on. Don't know how we managed to organise everything and go to for the honeymoon. How's that? Yeah, just rewind a wee bit. How did you propose he proposed? To who? How did that go? Oh, wow. [01:21:30] No, nothing. We do have the ring wouldn't go my finger. And I just said to everyone I'm sure someone here has got some lube. So But this car was was wonderful. And she really was, And it was fabulous. So was the brass Solidarity Band. [01:22:00] And it was a great family occasion. I think it was wonderful. Family friends from all walks of life and, uh, had a few political speeches. Tim was there. Charles was there. My oldest brother wasn't there. Yeah. Anyway, it it was a good it. It's the second party [01:22:30] we'd had at the boat shed because we had a joint 130th birthday party, an Artie party party, and they had some funny moments. It was like everybody had to sort of the shimmer and sparkle. And we had a couple of guys at the top of the stairs wearing silver shorts very tight silver shorts. It looks as they were painted on. It might have been, but and, um, putting glitter on people if they didn't [01:23:00] glitter enough when they came in. Hm. The boat show. People still talk about that party. Can you talk about, um, the idea that civil unions, I mean, that that that's such a new thing in New Zealand? And just the idea that for a lot of your relationship, that wasn't a possibility and then suddenly, to have that possibility, how does that change your outlook and and having a civil union did that. What did it mean to you? [01:23:30] Uh, what was that? Security? I do have an intensely homophobic elder brother. I know if something had happened to me, he would have immediately moved in trying to claim part of that estate, which I would not want him to have a bit of. He he's, uh, unfortunately, his makeup is. So the way he looks at life is that by putting down other groups, he's on top, which only makes him more stupid. [01:24:00] But, uh, that definitely by having that civil union was something that gave just that extra security. There's a that's a that's a sort of legal side of it, but I also and I appreciate what you're saying. But I also find that it was a chance to sort of publicly in front of friends and family have our relationship acknowledged [01:24:30] as being equal to everybody else's. So the recognition of our love and the strength of our relationship, the duration, the durability of our relationship, um, is unaccepted by a society. And we had our immediate society, our friends, our great friends, our straight friends, our family chance for the party [01:25:00] and more we can. And of course, we We jokingly said that we'll have a divorce party if the marriage equality bill goes through and then another party when we get married. So we have 22. But who knows? It might not even be necessary because at the moment, of course, heterosexual couples could have either a civil union or the marriage. Then [01:25:30] yeah, Anyway, we'll see. We'll wait and see. Would you take that step of going for a marriage over a civil union? Yes, Yes, I would. I'm sure I might want to adopt you, he said. I want you to say we won. He was asking me. Oh, I think so, yes. Um, it would be crazy not to. In some ways, it's, um, and [01:26:00] also show that civil union doesn't couldn't Could you describe it as another nail in the coffin for bigotry? It's another way we've gained against the people who who cannot think beyond some weird belief that we are wrong. And to me, that's we should acknowledge it and say, Here [01:26:30] we are. We are as good as you. Maybe we won't have such a big party this time. No, we we we will allow to Paris Anyone who wants to party come to Paris. That'll be fun. You also gave a a spoken submission to the Parliamentary Select Committee this time around for the marriage equality bill. What was that like in comparison to doing it for the civil unions Bill? I found [01:27:00] it easier. Um, you know, because the first time for me it was a very formal sort of, um, up there sort of occasion. Who were these people? And and, um, I was expressing something very personal very publicly in front of the press as well. And, um, so that was a little unusual, but this time it was a great deal easier. Um, the astonishing thing was and you know, the questions were by and large, intelligent, and the reception apart [01:27:30] from Mr um was fine. It was fine, but she's questioning was bizarre. I hardly could believe he said what he said, and he asked you if you get married, who will be the husband who will be the wife? I thought he's surely not asking what I think he's asking. So my sort of rather slow brain said, Well, really, how relevant is that? Because the marriage act is gender free at [01:28:00] the moment. And Ruth Dyson, who chair seemed to indicate to that it wasn't a relevant question. Dez chipped in and sort of broke the ice a wee bit and said, Uh, well, of course, if it helps, John does most of the cooking, which was very constructive, because it could have got quite tense because they were very bizarre question. Anyway, we formally complained to this week, and we've not had a response yet. It did go through my mind, I. I sort of looked at that guy and thought [01:28:30] what? And I went through my mind. A Jehovah witness came to our door. He recognised me from the civil Union campaign and he said to me, Oh, I recognise you from I don't know if he's a civil union campaign or something like that. He said, Are you the mister or are you the misses? So I looked at my watch and I said, You have one minute to get off this property before I get the police And as he went up by, you have heard what I called him and his ignorance [01:29:00] and stupidity and and some good language. I thought, Now you don't do that at a committee. I don't tell him what I think of him in those terms, so fortunately, uh, sort of switched it around. But we feel because they're all told to treat the the people who are giving submissions for decorum, dignity and respect that he did none of that. So he owes us an apology, [01:29:30] and if he was a decent sort of bloke, he would apologise. And it was intriguing to read in the press that when the media asked John Key whilst he was in Burma, what they thought of what he thought it was to his question. Oh, he's just doing his job. You know, I feel he needs on the job training. Do you think it will pass? I'm very hopeful that it will. I would see that, um it went to the first reading. With such a substantial majority, [01:30:00] you'd have to lose a lot of votes. And more recently, a big day out. I understand that John Key has confirmed that he will, in fact, vote for it all the way through and further indicated that he hoped, uh, other members of his party would do the same. So he's given them a bit of a note, hasn't he? That those who have already voted for it to get part way through. But, you know, I thought, What the hell is the debate about? Should there be a debate at [01:30:30] all? It should. What difference is it going to make to society? Except to gays and lesbians or, uh, transgender people or whatever, that they have the same rights? It's not impinging on anybody else's rights. It's not affecting anybody else except the couples who could benefit from the law. And it should go through. I'm very hopeful indeed. You know, I'd go along with what John says on that What you say is just sure. [01:31:00] Uh, that's how I feel, But we can't be complacent. We we've still got to say, OK, we've got to do some work on this right to the very time it goes to its last reading. So how do you see yourselves like activists or advocates or what? What? What are the words that you would use to describe ordinary springs to mind? What what springs to my mind is that, [01:31:30] uh, I over the years have become free with my thinking and as a person accepting who I am, and no one dares say that I am inferior or superior. I'm another person on this planet and, uh, should be treated equally. And I think this is why a lot of time, I do voice my opinions and, uh, [01:32:00] tolerance. You know, we should be tolerant of a whole lot of things, But why should we be tolerant of ignorance, bigotry and homophobia? I don't think we should be tolerant of that. Oh, well, it's their religion. To me. That's not an excuse. Uh, OK, that's how they were brought up. No, I don't go along with that. I don't tolerate that. And so Yeah, So I yeah, I think that [01:32:30] I'm happy to voice my opinions and we've recently getting the award for the local hero has given me some media time, and I feel not for me. It's if I can help society as a whole with half an hour the other day on news talks, it'd be it was good because I could talk about, uh, my passion for Zia and the plants, their native plants. And then another sector [01:33:00] was on the marriage equality bill. And here was a chance to voice how I feel. And, uh, in the third part, they talked about our garden. But these were things that I have a passion for, and hopefully that it did have some effect. I've just remembered that I was I read an article which mentioned me as a long term activist, and I read that with some surprise. [01:33:30] Um, this is Don, and, um, I think I'd be inclined to use the term advocate more. I need to be riled up a bit to get off my butt and do something, and, um, yeah, OK, that's good. I Not that I would use either but never mind. [01:34:00] And you're the advocate. I'm the activist, but you're both very visible. And I'm wondering how how has that been, like for you? Both individually and as a couple. So yeah, it It's fun. It's It's interesting. I mean, we get quite a lot of joshing about it. You know, media, queens are coming along here, you know, in the paper again. Even sort of, uh, Emma's neighbour yesterday. Sort of having you on about being in the paper, but [01:34:30] the the local hero business, you know? So I had to remind her about the power behind the throne and all that sort of jazz, but, um, the, um it has been fun. It's been worthwhile. And, um, very largely enjoyable, Because during that civil union campaign, you know, we were very public. We had, um sorry. We should have said, shouldn't we? Um They had no abuse. People were so supportive. [01:35:00] Um, Cathy la did wonders. For example, we went the day we got our licence. Um, um a friend of ours organised a table at the father. There were eight of us, and, um, then we applied for the licence. That right? And, um, it was, um we got to It was a big round table of pink flowers in the middle, and I went up to the person who was running the place and said, Look, you [01:35:30] know, let me have the tab. I She said, No, this is on us. I mean, that sort of thing happened all the time and we came out. We crossed the road to more Wilson's and a couple of guys in suits on their way to work or whatever. I shook your head. Go for it. You guys didn't know them at all. So it's pretty good, isn't it? Yeah, well, I think so. Uh, the guy who was on there, [01:36:00] not advertising standard broadcasting standards authority. Somebody complained that a programme of one sort or another, I don't know, Sunday or 20 20 or whatever it was, they give more time to us given to the opposition. And, you know, he said, I've seen you so many times when you do come down in favour of your but it's Yeah, I. I don't know. I'd hate to feel that I've sort of got on to a bandwagon and think that I've got the [01:36:30] answers. Um, I help you, but it does. You know, it does give a chance. Uh, we cannot buy that time. We could not buy the advertising and it does give a chance. I feel as I've said so often, that society as a whole will benefit. Another generation will benefit by what we're doing and not [01:37:00] only for gay rights but also the environment. If you show us how ordinary gay people are, that's good I, I think with the award and the, um because I've stressed more of the environment what I've done for that than they have for gay rights. But I correct them on that and make sure that they're both equal. And it it's just that, um I have that passion and it's just wonderful to be able to know that there [01:37:30] is someone taking note and someone's interested also. Yeah, well, I hope they're interested. Probably switch the radio off for the summer again. I just put on a note here that you've won local the local hero award. Yes, and you're heading up to Auckland. What? Next week? Yes, And what's it for that as a finalist and the local that over 700 nominees nominees [01:38:00] over 700 nominees and so to be selected in the final 10 out of New Zealand. I think it's quite something not for me. But the fact is that again we've got that visibility. A gay person, an open gay man, is recognised for not only gay rights but also for good work done within the community. The guy who compared the, uh, [01:38:30] gala opening the Pride Festival, the young New Zealander of the year from last year. That's the man. Yeah, so there's a There's several categories local hero, community hero, young person, senior person and new Zealander of the Year. And this is in the local hero category. Yeah, which is good. He was nominated also for the senior, but we found that that Ian Grant and Vicar are also in [01:39:00] the senior. So we're quite glad he didn't get that they were nominated to the thing. I don't think I think he's probably been edged out. Looking back at your relationship and the time you've had together, can you tell me some of your maybe, um, happiest moments? Oh, just so many. Some of our trips overseas have just been Yeah. [01:39:30] I mean, that one trip we went to Tanya's wedding in Italy. I mean, that was just incredible. From a wedding in Italy, up to the lake of the Italy, onto the, um, we stayed at honey on what we call the then we rushing over to for a cycle trip. I mean, we just be invited to by Vivan. How would you like to spend some time in [01:40:00] Wow that that was fabulous. But he got free accommodation and and then also suddenly finding that my daughter turned up there with their boyfriend. But the hilarious time we've had at dinner parties and and John's daughter's place and and also one of the joys is minding our grandchildren. They are delightful to kids. They get dropped off here because Emma is a journalist and she rings [01:40:30] up. I have to get to work. Can I drop the kids off at seven? You feed them and take them to school and we wait on them. They sit there and they're so polite and and I walk in, which is really good, and I had to pick them up. Remember, the kids said, Where's the car? And I said, You walk no car. I'm a cruel stepfather. No, no, no. Hold her hand. Did you cross the road? Oh, yes, yes. I said to [01:41:00] Ruby and Luke, I said, Now hold my hand. We'll all hold hand as we cross the road and little ruby looks at me and she says, Do you hold John's head when you cross the road? That's very yeah. She's also done another gem. Sorry. Grandchildren are but, uh, superfluous to this conversation. But we met someone who acts as a a supplementary teacher. He said, I know your granddaughter at school. Oh, yes. He said I said to her, [01:41:30] Your mummy's famous, isn't she? You know, Mummy being a TV journalist on TV three. Um, and Ruby? Yes, but not as not as famous as Popper. Oh, what's Papa famous for? Gay rights? She said no. At the age of eight. I think that's wonderful. Yeah, just a matter of fact. Yeah, so yeah, but what about things like, um, holding hands? I mean, it seems such a simple thing. And such a just an obvious [01:42:00] thing that out in public I mean, is that something that you you feel comfortable? I? I have to say I do movies. Oh, we do it at the movies, and we did it in. Yeah, OK, but, um, there's a general run of thing. I'm not comfortable. I don't feel that society seems to accept it. We had we're carrying sort of, uh, rainbow flags, and that was a long time ago, but, [01:42:30] um, yeah, so I was going past the Metro pub, came the rainbow Flags. Next thing we hear about but then nothing like doing homosexual reform, which had a rock put through my car through my windscreen. Yeah, spat on. And we did have the house stone. A couple of solar panels broke. Yeah. So, um, but you don't get that now, But you do get more bashings in [01:43:00] road, which is a worry, because there have been several recently. Mhm. So there we are. We're making progress, I think, by and large. What about, um, think about other kinds of moments? What about saddest moments? A double D? I written it down here on this question list. Um, [01:43:30] we have to explore that I think of your mom was always one of those I remember particularly a neighbour. Louis. We had, um, memorial service here, complete with the ashes of a woman who had been a essentially a refugee from [01:44:00] Czechoslovakia and Vienna. And, um, she gone to the States to catch up with her son and couldn't stay in the States because there was no transferable pension and so on and so forth. And she came back here and she sort of tried to find various places to to stay because she's her home had been sold. We couldn't put her up because we were looking after Dizzy's mum at that time. But anyway, later on, we were asked by the son to hold some sort of memorial service, which we [01:44:30] did, and we got some information and various people came down. But some of the people who came down were elderly. Yeah, they they were, um, Jewish refugees, still with the tattoo marks on their arms. And it was very moving when they started speaking about Louisa, who was a lovely, very, very elegant woman. Very, very elegant. And, [01:45:00] uh, I still remember going to her home in the late 19 fifties and having via schnitz or something you never knew even existed in New Zealand. And she had this past it all about of what she'd done shed as a Catholic family, but she married a Jew, and so they had to flee. Her brother, who helped, who was a Catholic priest, was beheaded [01:45:30] by the Nazis one month before was declared because he knew too much and she went through all this when she came back to New Zealand when she refused to stay in the States because she would have bankrupted the family and they wanted to stay. They came back and forth, back and forth, and that's why we ended up holding the funeral because the son, Chris said. We've spent so much going back and forth making sure Mum's all right. The only thing we can do now is if you record [01:46:00] a memorial service and then we'll do the same in the States and show the video. So we did that. But it was very, very, very moving. Just to think, you know, the horrors of what happens when people seem to think they are so bloody right that Jewish people are not humans. There's something to be derided to, to treat [01:46:30] worse than what you treat an animal, and and these memories came back with Louisa and it was just so sad to to incredibly hear her relate. Uh, the horrors of war and these people who came for a funeral were survivors from refugee camps. And, uh, yeah, so it was very moving. It was very moving. Hearing about her life and, [01:47:00] uh, scattering. Yeah, we've done some. We've had that sort of we had also a naming. We had a grandchild sort of named here. So we had the sort of the baptism, as it were, and and we had the match and we had a a gay lesbian wedding here as a gay man marrying a lesbian. It was all very rushed [01:47:30] and hilarious. I mean, the bribe was too tonic, to say the least. The marriage act going to get passed is very important because this was a way she could stay with her partner in New Zealand. And she wanted one of us to marry her. And we said, No, no, we are a couple we don't want to. But we had a friend staying here and he said I will, and he volunteered. And so [01:48:00] we had this wedding going and everything we see that would go wrong seemed to go wrong. We got a celebrant and they organised that. They all did. They did. Organise um yeah, we we organised it. I made a cake. I did. And did all the trim the bride groom was I macular? Yeah, but he was He was so disorganised. Neighbours came [01:48:30] in and they dressed up for the occasion. And Oh, yes, we had one neighbour came in with a beautiful white hat on because the celebrant didn't know what we're up to and she came. But what happened is the rather butch bride came down the drive and, uh, she brought with her a lot of carnations. Some friend of hers grew carnations and I said, Well, look, bring them along and I'll make you a bouquet. I've done florry and I could make a nice bouquet And I said, Look, show me what you'll be wearing for the wedding and I'll pick up something to match. [01:49:00] So she showed me this bit of cloth of a bit of material. She pulled out of some garment out of her bag and it was all in blue, pink and white or something. Rather and I picked out these carnations. I got some training variated I look down. I made it very feminine for her to hold. But what? It turned out she went to a spare bedroom to change. She came out still with a corduroy trousers on and a blaze. [01:49:30] Meanwhile, carrying this beautiful trailing. I was washing glasses or something downstairs and somebody said, Oh, the celebrant wants to see you. Fair? What? See me? Why? Ok, so when the woman was very, very nice woman. And so Ok, now you're the owner of this house. I thought I'm not the owner of this fucking house. I wasn't at that time. I still have my house. I can't at this stage. I can't say anything, [01:50:00] can I? You know so, right? Yes, I'm the owner of this house. So I lied and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, this two tonic bride had assumed things, not told anybody anything. So we went ahead and we had to play this game that it was my house because the celebrate was very sad that there was no poetry. There was no nothing. You know, um, you know these photos on the oh, that's that's quite show. And, [01:50:30] um and she said I want some poetry. I want some poetry. And they said there's some brown on the book. Oh, thank you for reminding me, Da. You know, we had to play this and it got worse and worse. He got the giggle. Yeah, I started laughing because when she started saying something about I can't remember. But the wording I thought, Oh, gosh, you know, and because I had to get [01:51:00] a kiss. The bride, I mean, kiss the bride, But I could look on the face of the of the groom. It was nothing. He doesn't want to kiss her, but Yeah, we found out it was a celebrant's birthday, so we sort of converted it fairly rapidly to a sort of birthday party. So it became a birthday cake, and we used to have, but I will give confidence to the bride because she had [01:51:30] a, um one of those quick cameras on to push out a photo straight away. Polaroid? Yeah, and she sent us some photos the next day and I said we were witnesses, so we saw it was difficult to see. There's a picture of both of us at the table, and there's a lovely woman who was coming clean for us occasionally. And she came and saw her and she said, You bug her. She went and got married and didn't invite me. [01:52:00] But I do remember John had made that cake and wonderful joy did of decorating it. It was really, really good. It almost looked like a hat with a ribbon around it. And it was a lovely looking wedding cake, and it was nearly whipped off by the groom. He was going to take it. I said, no, you wedding cake. It stays in the house, and we don't know quite what happened to them. But, um, so this house [01:52:30] has seen go to go to and some good parties because we have seen downstairs a nice big lounge and that we've had a Yankee Doodle do. We've had a closet opening party opened by the absolutely fabulous fabulous patch. And I have danced on that theme up there, By the way. Hm. What's it like growing older together? Are we Are we old? I [01:53:00] have No, I have no idea. I'm serious because it's it's not a concept that I get a hold of. Fortunately, we're just going together. We grow together and we keep good health, and you sort of don't look on yourself as being on the other People probably do, right? So I guess you don't look at very long on the earth and make the best of it. And hopefully we do keep good health for a little while. Yeah, I'd like [01:53:30] to. Still, I don't know if I can keep up the pace I'm doing at the moment. But as I said earlier, I don't get up hills quite as easily. I can't get to the top of the coco, but I do do organise a restoration group up here of about 50 people, plus guiding at land. Plus what I can do for gay rights, plus, uh, our garden and also a bit of painting Who does all the stuff inside the house and John's good [01:54:00] cook. I tell you what, I. I couldn't I really could not do those things if it went through John, there's no way could I? Well, that's the thing for the track that I organised every month. But we don't do. I write it out and I do the research because I always like to put into it um, one fauna and a couple of flora just to keep people's interest in their forum fauna. [01:54:30] And it takes a little bit just to get something like that written up and what we've done. The last working bee, when the next working bee is et cetera, and this goes out, not only I found out, but I send a copy to the Teric Working Group as well, and that sends out to all their members. And then, of course, it's John who edit it and and, uh, type it all up. And then we do that once a month. So all that does, Yeah, it's all time consuming. It's interesting, you know, people say, [01:55:00] Who does the cooking or or who is the wife who plays the? But it it happened because I was retired when I moved in here. This was at work. It was fairly logical, cooked a meal when he came home, so it sort of stayed that way. But Des is a very good cook. Yeah, I'm not writing that down. Johnny is a good cook. I like eating his food. What's it like growing old together [01:55:30] down there? Retirement home. A funny man retirement home. What we have said we did. We? We have thought, if this property does get too much to do, we don't mind the idea of apartment living downtown provided there's an out a private outdoor space, which is quite a big. We do [01:56:00] like going out, and the joy of this house is the privacy. And I think that's one requirement. And I've almost changed a lot of my views on gardening and gardeners being by myself that we not always very environmentally friendly. More people that can be encouraged to live in apartments well designed with an outdoor spot that's private so they can enjoy outdoor well insulated so [01:56:30] sound you're not getting other sound, and it's going to reduce the amount of energy we need for heating. Uh, we don't have to walk so far, and those interested in doing gardening you have a community garden, fruit, vegetables or you do restoration work in our hills of Wellington, especially in Wellington. It's great of getting back that wonderful Bush, which should be part of our environment. So there we are. That's the way I look at things now. So, um, I don't fear going [01:57:00] to live in an apartment a retirement home? I don't know. I might meet your brother. Come on. His brother's gone one. Yeah, that'd be interesting. We could really stir things up, couldn't we? Well, I like the ideas of the two guys. We met a couple of retired teachers in California who in Ross, which is something like 10,000 people over the age of 55. They set up a great group here. It worked very well. Unfortunately, Paul has just died, [01:57:30] but, um amazing. Amazing that. But it's it's isolating yourself from the community at large. And it's not a young people, I think need to see someone who can't walk so well or do something so big. Get an idea about differences, and and I don't think it's a healthy thing. But again, there are people who just can't cope, and it's good that they have that assistance. [01:58:00] What's keeping, uh, beaver moun up there? Oh, I see the grandkids come in and they used to sort of throw the kids toys down away from that a little bit of beaver into the conversation. So you're referring to up your staircase. You've got the little kind of toys and you've got a Beaver Mount from Canada from [01:58:30] the game. Are you collecting these from from whenever you go overseas or most of them by visiting bears? The kids are going out of going up those stairs and whacking them all down, which they seem to delight in doing. But, um, I tried to encourage them. I did buy this from, and you can play that Just encouraging to know [01:59:00] a bit about how and the, um the the the half naked Native American Indian. Where where is he from? Uh, Auckland, I think. The Canada. We bought em. Yeah, actually, Ruby, our eight year old granddaughter, said to her mother, at last, an appropriate calendar. A lovely word for the previous calendar has been naked men. And the previous one that had naked meme of hard cocks, [01:59:30] which the little boy looked at with his father and father, said Those men are funny, aren't they? And he said, yes, they are funny. Oh, so, um, we we're doing very well. Uh, just one last question. And that is, um, you you were speaking about, um, young people seeing older people before, and and so they get a sense of the diversity in community, and I'm wondering, what kind of advice would you give to young people? If [02:00:00] you had a chance to say to young people nowadays you know some life lessons or some advice? Very simple, really. Don't be afraid of being yourself. Do stand up to bullying. I get very worried about the level of bullying in our schools. Don't let yourself be bullied. I'm sure there is help around either from counsellors or from parents. And, um, with a bit of luck, you'll find that society is getting a bit easier for you if you see that somebody can [02:00:30] have a life partner of the same gender as yourself. And it's recognised and accepted in a matter of fact, in society, which is what it should be, just a matter of fact. But I go along with that. Is that just find out who you are? Accept who you are except what you are your sexual orientation. It might be or your capabilities or what you're interested in, and follow [02:01:00] those interests and question authority. Don't just accept, because someone says such and such just question and just find more. Find out a little bit more about living life and also enjoy. Enjoy it. Have fun, enjoy life just to remember, but not at the expense of someone else. And when I think your philosophy or [02:01:30] thinking does start causing suffering of another human being, and to me, that's evil. So don't become evil. Just staying good and enjoy life, Yeah.
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