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I worked for the telephone exchange and worked basically, um, in many places of New Zealand and gradually worked my way up in the in the, um, what was then the post office and transferred to Wellington as a class for supervisor in the telephone exchange. Where shall we say I was, um, supervising a bunch of girls? Yes. Um, not many of [00:00:30] them were females, but that was fun. Um, I met many, many openly gay people in the post office or the telephone exchange, Many wonderful characters, some of whom I'm very happy to explain shortly. Um, but I will also say that a very supportive work environment there was no there were no problems about being ourselves. [00:01:00] And I would even say that on occasions it was probable that some of my seniors may have been gay, both male and female. One would never question them, but I know they were there, and I still look back fondly for some of the things that they guided me through. Was the post office a kind of magnet for gay people back in the early seventies? Or it just happened to be that way? I don't [00:01:30] know that the post office was, but I would definitely say that the telephone exchange was I went straight into, um, telephone exchange in a little place called in the Bay of Islands, where there was definitely one other male and probably females moved in moving around New Zealand. I just kept meeting them. Um, yeah, and Wellington and Auckland, because I worked in Auckland for a period of time, too. There was [00:02:00] a a large number, a large number, and we had social social occasions. You know, the Christmas functions. The, um Well, in those days you had a ball, and I'm talking, um that the Christmas function was long frocks and, um, formal clothing. And, um, most of us were in drag from from the telephone exchange. There were everybody just waited to see who was going to turn up and what it [00:02:30] was A fabulous time back then. What were the words that were used to describe gay people? I would have referred to myself as gay or homosexual. The rude words. And in those days, the word queer was, uh, just, um would make me great and the was insulting someone, but explain or describing ourselves. We were gay. people [00:03:00] that describe male, male and female. Were many people living an openly gay lifestyle back then? Yes, in my circles, Yes, definitely open to the extent that your friends all knew and your friends and probably and many well, in in many cases that I know it was families as well so that barbecues or Wellington didn't have many barbecues, but, [00:03:30] um, indoor indoor parties, because they you always had to get out of the wind. However, uh, yes, there were family involved in all of that as well. And most people just recognise the fact that, um, these are your friends and, uh, that's that's how it is. But we knew many couples. I say we because I was in a relationship for a period of time. Would you ever [00:04:00] see gay men holding hands or kissing? No, not in public. You wouldn't walk down the down the road holding hands. Um, a few years later in Auckland, it was seen a little bit more. Perhaps, but no. You come out of a club and you'd be arm in arm because someone was a little bit drunk. Maybe, but that's all. It was seen as speaking of clubs What was the Wellington scene [00:04:30] like in terms. I'm trying to remember names. There was one there. There's a restaurant, um 18. 10 or 10. 80 or something down in. Well, there was a club upstairs there or near there that I just can't remember the name of, um that was the most common one for the group of friends that I was with. Um, and also the Dorian Society. It was, uh, a bar [00:05:00] that that must have been licenced. I'm presuming it was We certainly had alcohol there. And a dance place and not not like the crazy dance places that you have now. We were dancing. Um, ballroom dancing was just wonderful. Um, yeah. Um, you you're talking couples dancing together or or doing, uh, rock and roll or the twist. But [00:05:30] it was not just crazy dancing on the floor. It was definitely people that were more involved with one another. Um, yeah. And I love the dance floor so I would arrive and go dancing. That's it? Yeah. I'm going to tell you about a character because of the dancing, and she's just come to mind. Her name was Phyllis had no idea of any other names. Um, but, um, I can see this person, Phyllis, as having this mess of [00:06:00] blonde silver blonde hair and wild in her clothing. That was always tight fitting and usually silver or black that I can see quite crazy. And what I can say is that this character worked on the railways and would, um and and one night convinced me that I was going to go on a train trip. So we went on the [00:06:30] overnight That was the one that went from Wellington to Auckland. And I stood there and I discovered that many of the guards were gay. I had a crazy time. I just had a a sleeping birth and had visitors for many times. And Phyllis just organised it all. Then when we got to the taihape, um, area, it was snowing, and the two [00:07:00] trains in those days used to pass in the middle of the night and and actually change the staff. So they went the other way, and we run outside in our underwear, which had to be put on, incidentally, and, um, changed trains and off we went again. And it was there were half a dozen people that just, you know, just in the middle of the night. Just Yeah, it was fun. So when you used to go out in Wellington, were you in drag? [00:07:30] Uh, I worked in drag for a period of time. Um, I. I worked in the post office as I mentioned, and and that's always shift work. Uh, and there were a group of us that used to go out at night, and I Great. There was one lovable, beautiful person called Tony who encouraged me to dress or change into women's clothing occasionally. And, uh, I I did on [00:08:00] occasions for party purposes. And then I, uh, got a got a permanent morning shift so that I was finishing in the telephone exchange at about three o'clock in the afternoon. I then worked in a restaurant, um called the townhouse restaurant for a period of time in the evenings. And that group of people were definitely night hours, so that when you finished work there, you went out, um, clubbing and pubbing. [00:08:30] And they introduced me to Carmen's coffee lunch, which was in Vivian Street. And from there, some of those waiters and the, um convinced me that going out as a female was a fun thing to do. And as I said, we also we we'd go to all of these to various functions, and also we'd all go and drag. So, yes, I did. [00:09:00] I eventually got to the stage that I was working, um, in the boon, um, Vivian Street in drag, but I change on the bus on the way. Do you want to know about that? That was fun, because you'd you'd finish work, um, at the restaurant at about 9. 30 10 o'clock. But really, the night life didn't start till considerably later. But I had to go, um, [00:09:30] up into is at me up above the zoo. Um and so I go up there Russian. Um, I never took a change of clothing to work. It was always a matter of rushing and grabbing it, um, retouching the shaving situation and that and then literally, I I've done it several times. Got on the bus, um, and change clothes [00:10:00] on in the back of the bus and I I probably had I think I had seven wigs, but they were all short bob style. Just put them on, and they just sat there. Type things like in page boy type styles. Um, now, remember, if you Well, you can't see me. I'm only 5 ft four. I was slight. I have tiny, um, hands, Tiny feet. Um, I. I take a size five shoes. So it's more Getting [00:10:30] clothing to fit me was easy. Secondhand shops were just a dream. Um, all all the girls, and particularly in telephone exchange, would just lend me anything. But we all wore long socks. They it was either Me? Well, if you're wearing, um, full length gowns and went right to the floor, But we often and then a little bit later, we were in mid, which were, um, split as far up as you could possibly take it. And then you had, um, hot pants underneath. I had, um, several [00:11:00] pairs of different coloured hot pants, but only one skirt. The skirt was a denim blue. I suppose it wasn't denim, but it was a that blue shade. Um, you could successfully, uh, get on the bus, grab it out, and it didn't crease. Um, you only buttoned up the top two buttons which were basically at your waist. And then, um, had the these tiny little shorts on that you would today [00:11:30] say were, um, only just a little bit more than budgie smugglers Or, um, you know, swim swimwear. And they were in bright pinks or yellows or greens, and everybody wore them. And of course, the more you passed your legs, the more people could see that was the whole point of them, you know, Um, did you have a name? I'm just Denise. Yeah, and I always was. Denise, I never chose a name. I never intended to change my name [00:12:00] because I didn't I still don't. I never saw myself as a female. I saw myself as having fun. Um, and it was fun. I had absolutely no desire to change my body. Um, many did, of course. And I was working with people who were in the midst of, um, transsexualism, um, and changing. Uh, S wasn't fully [00:12:30] innocent. I mean, apart from the sexual activity and the fact that there were many, uh, people Yeah, that were selling sex. But we were also illicitly serving alcohol because it wasn't licenced. There were the railway caps, great big, huge, thick mugs full of ram or or anything else. Really? Um, I believe there were other things being sold. I can say that I didn't sell anything other than alcohol. [00:13:00] Um, and bodies. Um, I was more the pimp for the place on occasions. Um, because if I chose to have sex with someone, it was because I chose to, not because I was selling myself, But I loved being a waitress. And I actually think that many of them thought that I happened to be one of the real girls in the place because I wasn't quite as out and obvious as, um, [00:13:30] others were, Um I just took food orders. And, you know, by the time you've served 100 toasted sandwiches and 14 glasses of rum, it doesn't matter. Most of the clients were people off ships, um, officers more than shall we say, sailors or or, um, businessmen or things like that. And they were much more interested in those [00:14:00] who were extremely extrovert. Uh, you know, the the great big tall, um, Polynesian drag queens were exceptionally popular because that's why people came there. And I love them. I just loved the crowd, the people, the times. But I'm really quite happy that I did not take any pills that were being offered. [00:14:30] I did not want to, um, to try hormones. I did not want to change my body. Um, and I was really quite happy with the fact that, um, I had short I had a natural afro, you know, So sometimes I could just leave my hair as it was. But in those days when we went out formally, or shall we say to the dancers, et cetera, your wig? If it wasn't at least 8 to 12 inches high, then it wasn't worth having. Um, everything was in petals [00:15:00] and all of that sort of stuff. So I spent a lot of time setting other people's wigs and all of that sort of stuff, and you'd you'd turn up with them in the evening, and that was that was a fun time. That was a fun time you mentioned just before about pimping. And I'm just wondering, um, can you recall the kind of prices and activities and was it on the same location, or was it somewhere else? But the girls, always all you do is introduce them. The girls always had the conversation about the money because, um, [00:15:30] of course, it was illegal. Um, the only time that I've ever taken, um, money was that I got a, um, English £20 note. Um, and all it was was a blow job. And I just thought I was made because let's that had to be There had to be 100 New Zealand dollars. It had to be. And I hate to say it, but he was It was short fat and hardly worth it. You know, [00:16:00] Um, but all he wanted was to I think he just wanted to say that he had had sex with a person that was actually a male. So, um, that's that's fine. And I and he made me take my wig off to do it. Um, and I swear, I, I sort of thought there must be cameras somewhere where you know what's going on here. That does matter. Um, yeah, that's that was his swell. Um, the [00:16:30] bogs were crazy. Crazy in what kind of way? Well, they were very active, So that the bogs, the beach, the beach? Yes, Um, meeting people in a public toilet and having sits in a public toilet was common because there weren't many other places to go. Now we all know about Wellington weather. Um, you could go to the parks and that and you, But you could never guarantee that you weren't going to be blown off the mountain or or whatever just [00:17:00] by the weather. Um, so, yes. And there were places in some of the high rise buildings. Um um, on the fourth floor of was a a toilet. There were I think there were about 10 or 12 cubicles in that toilet, and it was the business toilet for the building, but it was very, very busy. Um, the [00:17:30] D IC building, um, was similar. I can't remember what floor, but yeah, it was similar, um, and a couple of others. And of course, as I said, the public toilets one of my favourites was one that had a double entrance. And that was frightening. Um, on the corner of Kent Terrace and, uh, and corny place. Yeah. Um and it was underground, right? The idea. Is it still there? Tell me. Oh, it's still there. [00:18:00] It's not a toilet anymore. Oh, Anyway, it had one staircase from one side and one from another side. It was very risky, and I think it was probably. And there were only two cubicles, and I think that the risk was what it was partially all about for some time now I'm talking the fact that II I know I said sex in a toilet, and everybody imagines that that's, you know, getting naked and having intercourse. No, it's not. And it very [00:18:30] rarely is. Um, but certainly, um, playing with someone else. Some oral sex? Yes. Um, really. Rarely did I ever have a knowledge? Of course, that that's really putting yourself. You can't get out of that situation in two seconds flat. Um, you can stop playing with someone if you're standing there. Um, however, I will tell you that I was caught by the police in that toilet. [00:19:00] I was arrested. Um, the charge was, um, allowing someone to perform an indecent act on me. And yes, it did go through court, and I was kept overnight. Now I was wearing, um, male clothing, but it was a brown I. I had a brown like, um, camel hair coat, and it was just my favourite. And, um, I. I don't remember their trousers, but we'll say [00:19:30] probably jeans. Um, and a mid drift T-shirt. In other words, something that just came down halfway down my body. And that was all. And, um, it was a freezing cold night, absolutely freezing cold. But I had removed my trousers and left them in the car. So, in fact, I only had the coach and the mid drift top on. So when the police took me away, I didn't have any pants, so I didn't have my pants on all night. [00:20:00] Um, nothing else happened in. In fact, I'll be really honest. I don't remember anything about the lockup at all, except that I was questioned and questioned and questioned because they wanted to know who I was with. And I had no idea of his name. Um, what we did, which I described. And of course, he was also being questioned at the same time. Um, did [00:20:30] we know others? Was that a, um a place to go? Those were the types of things. Of course, they knew that there was. That's why they arrested us there. But there was no way that I was going to say that, you know, this was as far as I was concerned. It was the first time I'd been there, and it was a casual encounter. Um, was that quite common for police to? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. I thought I'd been set up by this other man, but no, um, he was also caught, but we were then separated, and I don't ever remember [00:21:00] seeing him again. And he may have thought that I set him up, too. Um, but it was quite common that they would send, um, usually hunky men. But I have to say they don't know, and they just didn't know how to behave. You could almost pick them because, you know, they'd play a little bit, but they wouldn't get a hard on. Um, they'd, um What? I think I When [00:21:30] I saw plain policeman, they were either extremely shy gay men. And of course, that's probable too, but, um yeah, but not very good at doing their, um, entrapment. Now, they would also send young boys. I'm very fortunate, but young boys have never appealed to me. And so, um, many times I've left when there's been younger people, um, there with [00:22:00] a police officer. How far would they go to have to prove something? Um, I think you would have had to have touched them or attempted to offer them oral sex or something. Um, if you were seeing masturbating and actually came in a toilet, that was an arrestable offence. But, um, the one time that I did, um, get arrested, I was actually caught in the cubicle with with the [00:22:30] other person. So two people in the cubicle, I mean, that that's sufficient for them. And, um, I think they looked over the time, which always amused me. You know, I wonder how long they watched people before they decided. Oh, well, we've had enough for now, you know, um, but then the next morning, after appearing in court after being charged or with no pants on, I had to. I then had to go to work. Now I had I was meant to have turned [00:23:00] up for work that night and hadn't, um, So I went into work. Everybody was sort of saying, Where were you? What happened? You know, And no one could get hold of me and people were genuinely concerned. Went to, um, the telephone exchange, um, senior supervisor. He took me into a side room, and his main concern was when I told him what happened. He said, Were you caught with anyone else from here? And I said no. [00:23:30] And he said then we don't want to know anymore. You know, I never got a reprimand I never got. Um, you know, it didn't affect my job, all of that sort of thing. Um, and someone did take me home because I had to tell him that I had no pants on. Um, but they were wonderful, you know, absolutely wonderful. Um, because I could have it could have ruined my job, you know? Did that conviction have any other repercussions on your wife? [00:24:00] I have to be honest and say that I probably stayed in toilets for at least a week. Um, it didn't have the results that should have had, um, the desire for sexual excitement. Um, far that it just continues. Now, I believe that that is the case with many people. If they're in, if they're in [00:24:30] a situation where they are having to look for casual sex in a dangerous situation, part of it is the danger. Part of it is the excitement, and that doesn't go away. The damage that it does is probably where they, um people can lose their jobs, people can. Families can find out and be damaged from it. Um, and all of that sort of thing. And And [00:25:00] that did not touch me. I was fortunate. Now my mother I told my mother a long time later and she was more concerned about my job and all of that and and that I was, you know, putting myself in danger because of, um, the fact that someone could kill you or all of that. Those were always my mother's concerns. Um, of course, in those days, HIV [00:25:30] was not around, But there were STD SI caught syphilis while I was in Wellington. But I didn't really know what it was until, um uh, a while later and and and was told while we were having injections in our bottom that there were a large number of people and they dec they considered that it was, um, an outbreak with that syphilis outbreak. Did it change anyone's sexual behaviours? Some, [00:26:00] but not sufficiently. But we were more careful. I'm wondering in the so we're talking in the kind of early to mid seventies, what was the media's reaction to things like, um, being convicted of a kind of indecency in a toilet. Where did they? I didn't have anything about me written [00:26:30] that I'm aware of. And that would have been in the courts and it, you know, because there are always court reporters and things like that. So I don't remember seeing anything, And if it was there, I didn't see it. But there were always, uh, headlines and stories that were, uh, touching on the, uh I'm trying to think of some words, excitement [00:27:00] or extravagance or things like that. You know that they pick on something that was, um, overboard. If a bunch of the, um, drag queens were actually seen in Cuba street rather than Vivian Street, that always made the news. You know, they've actually gone one street over. And, you know, this is just, um, ridiculous. What are they doing out of their territory and all of that sort [00:27:30] of stuff? And, um, at the Royal Oak Hotel was on the corner of, uh, Cuba Street mall. And there was a bar there at the back. Uh, I can't remember it. I can't remember the name of it, But on occasions we would go to that bar. Now I've seen drag queens hitting each other with handbags with books in them. You know, it's just the fights in that bar years ago were ridiculous. And then [00:28:00] several years later, going back and the bar was still there, and it was quite lovely. You know, um, the the situation had changed. There was also there was also a little bar in the middle, and that was much nicer and more comfortable and gay Gay men would go into that bar. But the drag queens were always in the bigger bar at the end, Um, situations like that. But if they did go into the main bar of the hotel, that was, you know, that was just not on, and the newspapers would get [00:28:30] hold of that sort of thing. Or, um, on the there was a triangle, uh, by street and Courtney Place. Yeah, and there's a sort of triangle made by the roads, and there was a toilet right there. Now it was a very, very active toilet. But God forbid, if one of the drag queens was seen cruising along there, you know, it always made the papers, [00:29:00] you know, um and, uh just just different things that were sensational, that those are the sorts of things that they'd report on. I don't remember anyone being named or damaged from newspaper reports. People were always fearful that that that sort of thing would happen. But I don't actually remember [00:29:30] it happening. Um, radio was a bit the same. They wouldn't name people. Do you think it was more tolerated rather than accepted? Wellington was much more tolerant. It will never be accepted. It still won't. You know, people still put a stigma on, uh, anyone that is considered different. [00:30:00] And I think the world of drag will always be considered different. The world of the transvestite and transsexual will always be different. But so in. So is, in some ways, the world of the gay men. For those that don't understand that there is there is definitely love rather than sexual attraction. So, uh, it it will always in some people's minds, only be tolerated. And Wellington was very [00:30:30] tolerant, very tolerant in comparison to, um, Auckland at that time. Um, Carmen. But, um, the Cummins Coffee Lounge and the balcony, which was a strip club, were well known by everybody. And Wellington was proud of those, um, those things, you know, and And people would take visitors to the balcony, you know, and they'd go and they'd see the strippers. And it was, [00:31:00] um yeah, a place where the streets, they loved it. Really? And if you drove by, um, particularly, you know, early in the morning. And there's still girls hanging over the edge of the thing, you know, waving to the crowds and everything that was that was expected. Um, you know, you were actually disappointed if you went by in a bus and you didn't see at least one drug queen early in the morning, and you could say, Oh, that's terrible. They're just going home from work, you know, But But they expected to see it. It was [00:31:30] And and that was what it was. Yeah, tolerance. But it was a very good tolerance. You know, when you consider that Carmen herself, um, ran for mayor, ran for Parliament, Um was very, very popular and did a lot for the community. Her money went back to the people. Um, every single one of those drag queens, [00:32:00] uh, not only worked obviously to make the money, but if there was any trouble, she would be right there to help them. Absolutely. Yeah. Have you seen photos of Carmen? Um, getting a shaking head and a nodding head from my interviewer here, Um, she's gonna kill me, but she was so damn ugly. I'm sorry. That face could have hit a bus. Um, and she knows that. And the her Her [00:32:30] breasts were enormous, but the heart underneath it was the most wonderful, wonderful thing. Um, shut her mouth by Drove that mouth. Now, words coming out of their mouth were loving, kind, gentle. She called everyone dear darling, because I don't think she could remember anyone's names. Um oh, dear. She's gonna hear this and tell me I love you, and you've done a lot for [00:33:00] me. But you know that that's how it was. But by Jo, you have no idea how big that mouth could be when it came to sex. I'm sorry, but I've seen that mouth in action. And, um, she's a clever lady. She's a clever lady. Oh, goodness. I don't believe I'm saying this. However, there are just It's just great memories because I was jealous. I couldn't [00:33:30] do it, you know? Um and it's a It was a turn on the fact that men were having being given oral sex by a person that everybody knew who she was. You know, they talk about it, you know, um, gay men used to talk about and whether they embellish the stories as well. That sometimes happens, of course. But straight [00:34:00] people, you know, um, of course, in her own world, Carmen would often say, You know, she's had businessmen, She's had parliamentarians. She's had this, she's had that. Well, I know that it was true, but every one of those people was just as happy to talk about it in their own circle of friends. You know, that's that's how it was. Um, [00:34:30] OK, Tammy was like a big mum to all of us. Uh, I wish that I had, um, taken notice of who these people were, what their characters were and at that time related to them more than I related to the scene, because I was [00:35:00] relating to what was happening and I was having a good time, but I didn't get to know the people, you know, you just got to know them as being there that night and little bits about their history. I would I wouldn't have much knowledge of where many of them lived and how they lived and how they survived. And all of that. That's the type of thing that I think would be, um, would have done me some good, [00:35:30] you know, because, um, I was working well and living a little bit well, on the money as a single guy that, you know, I didn't have many expenses. I lived in a small flat in, um, above the zoo, and it wasn't expensive. You know, Um, I did go to White House. I went to, um, she lived in Oh, the suburb just through the tunnel. Is [00:36:00] that Yeah. OK, you went through, um, through the tunnel and the the bus tunnel is if you're going from the city, it's on your left. Well, just there. And then there's a little street that turns immediately left. There was a public toilet right there, which was, you know, a regular stopping place of mine. Um, and she lived going down the street straight ahead in a tiny little cottage and one of her very good friends, who I believe, [00:36:30] shall we say, lived with her and looked after her and certainly did her hair and her clothing etcetera. Um, and I'm going to say the name, uh, or or something. He was a Polynesian person. Um, I knew him, but not really, really well, but he also worked as a waiter with us in the townhouse for a wee while. And so we became friends and he would, um, yeah, he'd done my wigs a couple of [00:37:00] times and things like that. Um, and he invited us there. Um, one afternoon and Cary was out. And just to see the house, um, which when I think back on it, we were spying because we were nosy, but it was just full of her character. There were, you know, peacock feathers just everywhere. And, of course, several wigs and clothing. [00:37:30] And it was just there hanging and a huge in What was what I would consider to be the lounge area or the main room was a huge bed. Just that was her bed. That was what it was. And she and I was told that she'd hold court there. You know, people came to visit that such can be on the bed and and I could imagine it. I. I never experienced it, but I could imagine it. But there was this delightful cottage. It was just [00:38:00] there, you know? And she was living in suburbia, just like the rest of us, you know? Um, yeah, that that was a good thing. Well, Danny, it's been, um, great. Uh, hearing your memories of of Wellington in the seventies. Is there anything you want to say before we stop recording? No, but for those that are listening, particularly those from those days, if anyone hears this and picks it up, if you remember who I am, that's fine. [00:38:30] But if you ever, ever want to say hi and you too were there in those days, then come through the interviewer and I'd love to catch up, even for coffee and fancy glasses. It would be cool. Thank you.
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