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My name is Dan Nicoletta, and I'm, um, a photographer who has devoted his life to documentation of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender journey primarily here in San Francisco. I'm now 58 I think, or 59. And, um, I was born on December 23rd, 1954 in New York City, New York. However, we moved to the place I grew up, which is [00:00:30] upstate New York. The city is called Utica New York, and that is where I lived most of my, uh, childhood years. Um, and I left there around age 17.5 to study photography in college. Uh um, but primarily those 1st 17 years were spent in Utica, which is a big city, but it's fairly rural in atmosphere. [00:01:00] Why photography? Um, I mean, I was always a creative, uh, and I did start photography through the yearbook and, um, junior year of high school. Uh, although prior to that my life was full of Instamatic moments. My parents were snapshot enthusiasts, so it was very much an element of my upbringing. And and so in the yearbook project, photography [00:01:30] captured my imagination. However, before that, I was already doing super eight films, so I was really drawn to film making more than photography. But then through the yearbook, I started to to gain an appreciation for still photography as well. What is it about that visual medium? Um, I seem to have a natural, uh, gift with it, like portraiture and people. And, um, [00:02:00] we did this really cool yearbook, which was very poetic for a yearbook. I mean, it was really kind of a hip thing using rock music lyrics. And then, you know, I my candids are in there along with the sort of formal done by the yearbook guy. And so it was a cool thing in the sense that you sort of started to realise the creative potential of bookmaking. And I guess this is at a time when we're obviously talking film, not digital. So [00:02:30] the way that you photographed must have been quite different from nowadays. Yeah. No, I actually only converted to digital in 2008, so I'm a late bloomer in that respect. So back then, what were some of the considerations for your photography I I right away, which is still true today, I. I was drawn to the theatrical in life. Uh, the humorous. And, um, this [00:03:00] had something to do with the fact that the other, uh, artistic endeavours that were cultivated in my family and my household, uh, was theatre and show business because my mom was a dancer and she encouraged us kids to be in plays and put on plays. And so there was always a theatrical dimension to my upbringing. And, um, that was translated into my own craft in terms of how it was to express that I. I certainly [00:03:30] didn't want to be an actor even though I dabbled. Uh, but the photography felt right because you could sort of be with theatrical people and not have to go through the motions of memorising the script or all of that happy horse shit, you know? So what kind of photos were you shooting? Well, in in in high school? It was exclusively the yearbook because filmmaking was so dominant for me that I was actually shooting films. I. I won a Kodak Teenage Movie [00:04:00] award and, uh, after that, and it was a silly little piece of paper from Kodak and two free rolls of Super eight film. But boy, you couldn't stop me at that point and I was gonna have my sights set on Hollywood, and I was going to be a filmmaker of note. And, uh, so I made about a half a dozen Super Eights in, um, high school, and they were both, uh, live narrative with real people as actors and, uh, animation. I did some an animation [00:04:30] in high school as well. And, um, and so I I set my sales to Kansas City Art Institute for my first year of college. However, they wouldn't let you study film directly in the first year they had something called foundations, which is ultimately multidiscipline, uh, a a home base for, you know, launching whatever your area of specialty would then become in the sophomore year. And, uh, you know, But I still even [00:05:00] managed to parlay those assignments into film projects. So I think I created another three or four films in my year. At case Well, let's see KCAI. I probably did one or two films, and then my sophomore year, which was out here, I transferred to California College College of Arts in Oakland, and, um, I did film and video, and I did another three or four films there. And then I [00:05:30] moved to Castro Street serendipitously in August of 1974. And I continued to work on some films that I started in Oakland. And I cultivated a, um, sort of exalted epic biographical film, which, uh, um depicted my developing romance with San Francisco because it was, you know, when you first came here and you [00:06:00] were 20 years old and, you know, you're just like, this is where I'm gonna live the rest of my life. Uh, you know, you want to kind of express that creatively. So I I made this film and and the first week I moved to Castro Street. I stopped in the Castro camera, which was Harvey Milk's camera store, to see where I would be processing my Super Eight film. And, uh and, uh, the first day I walked in, both guys were there Harvey and Scott and they were super super friendly. And, um, [00:06:30] I thought, Oh, my God, this is definitely where I'm going to do business. You know, these guys are great, you know, and I just I walked out that day, and I was I couldn't quite put my finger on it. And I was like, Thank God, they're so super super friendly. Of course, I was being cruised by, Harvey and I had no idea. You know, that was the level of naivete I had at that point. However, I was I did move to Castro Street with a same sex romantic partner. So we we got an apartment with another roommate, just one [00:07:00] block up the street at Castro at 19. 6. 39 at Castro, I think was the address. So I was not quite out, and I wasn't completely clueless, but I still was that sort of forming identity where you're you wouldn't necessarily know the difference between being cruised and somebody who is super friendly, you know, like it. It was that kind of innocence, you know? So coming out as a gay man was was kind of [00:07:30] being gay, ever an issue for you? Or was it just something that it was natural and just kind of evolved? I wish. Unfortunately, I was sort of classic, self tortured, um, self hating, uh, trying to stop being homosexual. Um, and that had something to do with being raised Catholic, but more to do with, um just not really having any very much exposure. You know, II, I [00:08:00] met my first gay people in the years prior to moving to San Francisco, and fortunately, I met these folks because they were great. Um, but they were in the New York City area, and so that was the same time next year relationship with this constellation of of gay men that lived in a squad, actually in in Brooklyn. And, um, it was such a great, uh, stroke of luck for me to encounter these folks and, uh, became sort of boyfriends with [00:08:30] one of them. And, um, but I would go back to Utica on the train and just be completely mortified. You know that here I was living this double life, and, you know, maybe I'm not supposed to be this thing. Um and so I was pretty tortured, you know, And, uh And so by the time I moved to, uh, my first year of college, I was totally closeted. I think I had one sexual male to male sexual experience at the end of the [00:09:00] year, which was a positive experience, maybe two. Um, actually one. And then I re reunited with one of those guys later, um, that I met who was somewhat out. Uh, ironically, I hung out with all these people who were very Fay. But none of them were out. And they were all kind of like gay as gay could be. But they were not practising homosexuals. It was the weirdest thing. You know, it was like, uh, when we [00:09:30] had the wild table in the back of the cafeteria and, um, you know, and it's just I. I guess the best memory from that period of my life is we all went to a party in town, and, uh, and there was this really sort of lovely, you know, sharp looking woman. And and so I was sitting on her lap and dancing and just kind of like having a gay old time with her. And we got back to the dorm and my friends were busting at the the [00:10:00] They were like, Girl, you Well, they didn't say girl because they weren't out, But they were like, you were You were sitting on the lap of that tranny. You know, I'm like, what? Excuse me? I had no idea that it was not a real you know. Well, whatever. I don't even know if she was transsexual or transvestite at this point. Um, but I was that, you know, it was that kind of like innocent, you know? So, uh, and then two of those guys, many years later, [00:10:30] came out, you know? So that was kind of cool and very intuitive that we all found each other. You know, even though we couldn't allow ourselves to be gay. This is 1970 three through 74 and then I moved to San Francisco, and I meet my lover, uh, Esme at California College of Arts. And he very is very gentle with me, teaching me how to self respect and how to [00:11:00] not rush that process. But, you know, just like, you know, look around you. There's people who are co creating community here, and we understand, you know, your fragility, but it's sort of a useless model. You know what he was, You know, he was. And then, of course, I met Harvey and Scott, and they were similarly gentle with my tentativeness, but also were very much like, look around you, you know. And And that was what was happening. As you couldn't walk [00:11:30] down the street to go, like to to go buy a loaf of bread without Castro Street being this incredible array of, uh um, public display of affection And people were very, you know, sort of forthcoming that way. There was a it was a big kissing and hugging fest just to go buy a loaf of bread. Really? And, you know, and people are co creating community on a deeper level, like there's potlucks and there are theatre companies. And we started the first gay film festival. Then, [00:12:00] uh, I was also in a, uh, coffee clutch. That was all gay photographers. And I was in another group that was all gay videographers and, um, and theatre and I was I jumped right into two different theatre companies and basically worked with both of them for many, many years after that. So in the space of a couple of years, you've gone from a location where gay was on the scene and the other to [00:12:30] to being gay, kind of all encompassing. Yeah, yeah, no, it it really was a very instantaneous conversion, because I I think I moved to Castro Street in August of 74 and I'd say by later that year. Um, I'm I'm putting together this film that I talked about, which was this, uh, biographical, um, [00:13:00] Valentine's to my my developing romance with San Francisco. And there was a same sex kiss depiction in that. So I had already kind of dispensed with the insecurities and pretty much joined the the ambulance that was outside my front door, you know, and and and as well, my sexual rite of passage. I mean, we were cruising those bars and I was picking up lots of men. So I was getting to enjoy the fruits of the community on that level, too. And it was pretty exciting. [00:13:30] How does it work? If you've had that kind of self loathing for so many years to suddenly have that dramatic shift in terms of, you know, it's a completely different mindset, isn't it? You know it. It's so you know, of course, on the local level, uh, it's instantaneous, and it's completely transforming and and freeing. However, I took my time coming out to my parents, so I think they eventually came to visit me at the camera store [00:14:00] where I was a year later, hired as an employee. And even then I wasn't necessarily quick to point out to them that, um, I was working, I was gay and that I was working for these two gay people. But, I mean, you know, it would be readily apparent. And and then when I look back at the letters that I wrote back home during those first couple of years in the Bay Area, um, you can see me hinting like, Oh, Mom and Dad, there's this this great big party [00:14:30] every year called the Castro Street Fair and and, you know, like circumnavigating the nitty gritty. But so I wasn't classic in the sense that I wasn't one of those fired up. Come out, come out, come out. And, of course, the come out come out come out really hadn't happened yet because Anita Bryant hadn't happened yet. And you know, that's 77. That's like a year later, And she she forms the legislation in Florida, which would repeal, uh, [00:15:00] anti discrimination legislation protecting gays in employment. And that is sort of a It's a turning point in the US for sort of Abul party communities, whether it's the Castro or Fire island or wherever else, they're they're springing up, and there's very few at that point. But there is this idea of a gay ghetto occurring, and, um, and as soon as she wears her ugly head, [00:15:30] everybody's awakes. Awakes to what? This really what is really you know, the future here. So, you know, I, I think I'm a little more fired up at that point. Harvey certainly is. Um, and, uh, I you know, I think they were great in the sense that they never pushed people into coming out, even though there was a verbalization of the necessity for it. Uh, they, you know, right there within their [00:16:00] own sort of home framework. They were very gentle about that, and there was no requirement to come out. So that's an interesting detail in the sense that I think it is a personal decision. And they, uh, they respected that even though there was a call to action, there was a respect for personal decision making on that in those first couple of years being in the Castro, how did that change or affect your creative output? Um, it was it was, [00:16:30] um, exploding, you know, there there was, uh, such a synergy. Uh, the the Castro I, in a sense, is the geographical centre of San Francisco. And it really was this epicentre of creativity political, uh, activism. That was my initiation into electoral politics. Um, it was my initiation into, uh, freelance photography. So still photography, [00:17:00] Um, so my initiation into business conducting business. Um And, uh, So there was this economic component that was, you know, part of my identity that was forming there was a sexual component. So it really was like a candy store. In a way, you know, it was like everything that a creative individual in their early twenties would want. It was available to me and, uh and you know, I. I already had a kind [00:17:30] of Taipei wiring where I really was so hungry for to become a successful film director that I just went for it with gusto. I was like I said, I was involved in, you know, five different sort of, uh, and working a full time job at the camera store, which in and of itself was this creative entity, you know, because the campaigns that were being fostered there were very done very creatively. So how did that joke come about [00:18:00] They You know, they took a shining to me. I was a customer, and I and like many customers, um, we hung out, you know, we would drop off our film, but then we'd sit on the the big armchair and and shoot the shit for as long as we could get away with, uh, and, um and then a year later, they they signalled me in and and Harvey had this really serious tone in his voice and he said, We need to talk to you. And I was like, Oh, my God, what's up? And and so he sat me down and he said, We, [00:18:30] Scott, and I want you to come work for us. We would like you to work in the the camera store. I'm entering my second supervisorial campaign, and we want you to be the extra pair of hands around the store. So I left that day like, 10 ft off the ground, you know, and I already loved that place, and I was already, you know, a hanger out or and, um uh, and I had been working really shitty jobs. Not that you cared back then because you're just so happy to be in San Francisco, but to to to [00:19:00] land employment in Castro camera was such a a godsend because it was better money. I was right where I wanted to be, you know? Then I was right in the heart of where I wanted to be. Anyway, I was meeting all these freelance photographers and filmmakers. Um, we started the film the Gay film Festival, out of that store, which is the one that's now this is Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's dated from our festival, basically, which was a super age showcase. But they they have [00:19:30] created the lineage from that point forward. So which is now coincidentally, I believe it's the biggest per capita film festival in California. Um, people take their vacations to come here. Uh, we show films from 30 different countries every year for 11 days. And, um, that started out of that coffee clutch. And, um, it's a beautiful thing because we really didn't. We [00:20:00] didn't think that far down we we we understood that what was happening synergistically, especially when there was conflict. Uh, in anti gay legislation, we understood that what was happening was history making, But we would have never dreamed that it would be. One of the successes would be this incredible film festival, which now is an amazing tool for, you know, changing hearts and minds on the LGBT paradigm [00:20:30] in your creative output. At that time, did you ever feel constrained by, um, feelings of censorship? Or I can't show that or I can't portray this. You know, we had a couple, um, sort of volatile films in the early festivals, and I think I was because I was a sort of a cockeyed optimist, and [00:21:00] I and I still am, but I was very I mean, if if you look at my films, they're hardly avant garde, they're actually wanna be Hollywood films. They're very exalted and, you know, they're kind of goofy in that respect. But, you know, I was definitely pursuing this narrative track, and there were people that were doing experimental things which were, you know, poking fun at Anita Bryant and were more in the spirit of Andy Warhol. Um, but I I didn't [00:21:30] feel that inclined to do sort of inflammatory work, inflammatory work. But people were and we did show it. But we didn't shirk from that, and then the theatre I was doing was much more edgy. And, um, so it wasn't that it was lost on me, but there are in the theatre context I wasn't writing. I was just documenting. So it's a sense my own voice is much more moderate. And, um, [00:22:00] I I didn't really feel compelled to censor myself to my knowledge. Um, yeah, I, I think in a sense, I was searching. I was searching and was pretty much waiting for what that that message might be. Um, I don't recall. I mean that the, you know everywhere, you know, not unlike the the public display of affection everywhere [00:22:30] around you are the message is exhibitionism and self gratification and self exploration. And, um, there's there's actually no recoiling at this point for those first few years. It's pretty much on fire, you know, even though I'm a moderate and innately you know. And Harvey was taking photographs as well. Wasn't he at this point? What was he photographing? He was photographing [00:23:00] less and less. In a sense, his the richness of his body of work predates the camera store because they they had a couple of road trips. You know, they moved to California. They had a couple of road trips. Um, he's a free agent at that point. He's not working for Wall Street. They're kind of doing the the, um what do you call it? Uh, uh, unemployment insurance thing where they're getting unemployment checks, and they're just travelling and [00:23:30] playing. And so you see a lot of beach shots of his boyfriends. You see, um, shots of his dog. You do see an attempt at creativity. Um, and, uh, he is, he's he's, um he's avid. I mean, there's a lot of material. There's trays and trays of slides from those years. But then, as soon as he opens the store, that takes a back seat to this political ideation that's starting to to show [00:24:00] up, Um, he did still shoot like, there's this one of me that I just adore. And it's so great because he only shot me those those two frames. For some reason, those are the only two shots that Harvey took of me. But they're incredible. They're him experimenting with the role of infrared film. So they're just these amazing pictures of me and, um And then Scott was also, uh, a very avid photo enthusiast so they would do things like they would shoot the street fairs. [00:24:30] Although they couldn't shoot the second annual Street Fair because it was organised out of the store and that was a full plate for them. Uh, in fact, that was my first freelance gig gig, because they that was my first day of work at the store. But because I didn't know film prices, they said, OK, here's three Roses slide film go out and document the fair. So in in principle, that was my first freelance gig, and that was pretty exciting because, you know, I got [00:25:00] to photograph theatre people and drag queens and all the things that I liked anyway, So to be able to get paid for that was kind of cool. What a fantastic first. Yeah. Yeah. So, um yeah, I mean, they they continued to photograph all throughout those years of the campaigns, but it became less and less possible. The perfect example of that, um, attachment to creative [00:25:30] art making by both of them is in my mind's eye. Well, two things one is that Harvey, like many of us, one of the ways that, um, are homosexual ideation is is presence in the the The real world is through portraits of our loved ones, male to male, you know, sort of appreciation of male beauty [00:26:00] and and bonding. And if you look at Harvey's body of work, you see that all throughout right up through Jack Lea. There's this beautiful series that he shot of Jack at the Ocean, which I printed for him, and, um and so you. He fortunately would take a break enough to return to that the occasional day trip to the beach with the the latest boyfriend and a photographic essay on him. And that's a That's a real key place [00:26:30] to land for me because it shows me two things that he had the wisdom to create, um, recreational time for himself. And even though the the the campaigns were incredibly overwhelming and probably somewhat oppressive, um, and then I think when you look at all those pictures throughout, one of the things that you can distil is that the the really what might even be [00:27:00] the fundamental reason for Harvey's politicisation, which is a very profound sense of indignation, that I cannot safely and serenely have this enjoyment in life without culture bearing down on me, telling me that it's wrong. So what you see is this real sort of specialised, sacred, um, compartmentalization of male to male bonding, [00:27:30] and and to me, that's like very much at the core of why he decides to do something about the inability to do that. And so I think I've always Whenever I do my presentations, I always present that as my thesis, that male male to male bonding is the first order of business with Harvey. He is has this profound sense of indignation that he cannot do it in culture. And he is gonna commit him his life to transforming that and and does. And, um [00:28:00] and then he right before he was killed, he he had ingratiated this very previously very homophobic, uh, businessman down the block. The guy that ran the, um, mechanic shop a couple doors down. And that guy, when when they first came to the neighbourhood, was a homophobe. But of course, unsuspecting gays didn't really know that. So he he they would go there [00:28:30] and have their cars fixed. And this guy started making serious bank and he got he got religion because he realised the economic cloud of the gay community, and Harvey knew something about this guy's availability on that level and little by little, started to break down his homophobia. And he did it through joke telling. And so before long this guy was coming over to the store with the latest jokes, and Harvey would stop in over at the [00:29:00] the Mechanic shop with the latest jokes, and they became good friends. And that guy, towards the end of Harvey's life, had the opportunity to go up in an aeroplane when Cristo did his running fence in Marin County, which is this epic art installation and and those kind of things movies and sort of cultural trends that were really sort of cool had high coolness factor. Those were very much a another thing that Harvey and Scott utilised [00:29:30] to sort of anchor themselves, and it's all worth it. You know, he got to go up in that plane and photograph Crystal's fence from the air and came back with, you know, several rolls of slides and was just like, so excited about that work. And, um, it was one of the last times that he got to have that sort of creative respite. So he had it. He had he considered himself an artist, to be sure. And, of course, they had a rich theatre in, uh, off Broadway [00:30:00] history so that that was already solid there for them. So when you started at the camera shop, what was Harvey's status in the the Castro community? Can you recall how other people thought of him? Um, you know, I came after the first campaign. I wasn't here or involved in the first campaign. Um, and he already had, uh, a regular column in the BAR, which was the gay rag. It was a little sort of [00:30:30] street corner. Um, paper. Not with the significance that it has today. Um, but he utilised that as a a sort of pulpit and I. I was marginally aware of him having recognition of visibility. Uh, through that I was marginally aware that he was disliked. Um, but, you know, I think synergistically [00:31:00] because he kept on being engaged, particularly in that neighbourhood and the neighbourhood politics. Um, he he won people over, and the best example of that is there was a There was a one. Well, there was one last hurrah for police harassment. And it was a Memorial Day weekend, probably circa 1974. And and, you know, [00:31:30] maybe seven or eight dozen guys would line up on Castro Street at bar closing or even on a sunny Saturday afternoon to Cruise. And the cops came in and systematically arrested either 11 or 14 of them. And so they became known as the Castro 14. And and then there was so much organising in the neighbourhood at the time that a community meeting was called with a police liaison to basically complain about [00:32:00] this behaviour on the part of the San Francisco Police. And, um and they filled, uh, a basketball auditorium and a school on. And that was the thing I did. The revisionist. I got the building wrong. Um, anyway, so I go, you know, and young Danny goes into this room to check this situation out, and it's packed to the rafters with angry, angry citizens, and the most vocal is Harvey and Scott, and they're like, you know, their veins [00:32:30] are popping out of their neck and they're yelling at the top of their lungs, And, uh so, you know, it's just like what was the original thread on that. What was the question? How is Harvey seen by? By Yeah, Yeah, so So there you see a small victory. You know, like somehow he emerges as a champion because he's out there and, you know, those kinds of things start to turn heads and people are like, Oh, maybe he isn't so crazy, you [00:33:00] know, because originally the sort of status quo, gays really didn't like him and that can that continued to be an issue all throughout. Um, but, uh, little ladies loved him, you know, because he stopped and he talked to them, you know, And And there was always somebody coming in with some kind of drama, like, you know, he was very happy to. He was a big codependent. He was very happy to sit down, [00:33:30] sit you down If you just broke up with your boyfriend and and that scene in milk where he does that with Cleve Jones is at the very least, metaphorically true. I don't know if Cleave actually had a breakup in that moment, but there were many, many guys that were kind of Harvey's favourites that he was happy to sort of sit down and find out what was up for them, whether it was drug addiction or whatever, you know, So I I didn't really have. I mean, I don't I mean, we [00:34:00] had several hours in the the the late afternoon where we used to chat a lot, but I don't I didn't necessarily see him in that role with me. It seemed like I was managing fines, so there wasn't this big need to sort of utilise him in that fashion, you know? Can you describe his voice? Well, it it it, um, Stuart Milk, Harvey's openly gay nephew, had one really solid [00:34:30] exchange with his his uncle before his uncle passed away and before he had his own um, coming out, which was many years later. But they Harvey was there to bury his father, I think. And he met with his brother's family. And there was the way it was described by both Stewart and Harvey. Was there was this one late night where they sat around the kitchen table, and and they it was somewhat [00:35:00] aggravated around the gay issue. Or, you know, the the sort of, um, notion of, um uh, not that Stewart was even thinking that he might be gay at that point. But there was some conservative on on his part around, you know, Why do you have to be so vocal and Harvey in the way he described it, which is once, Once Stewart said it, I was like, Yeah, that's right. I remember that and he would do this thing where he would [00:35:30] let you have your opinion and he would hear you out good and clear. And then he would loop it back out around to his and and And have you convinced that his world view was what was was more correct? Correct? Right? So I, I think, especially if you were a youngster or somebody who I thought was cute, he was certainly gonna be, like, very accommodating on that sort of metaphysical level of Well, let's let's have a [00:36:00] conversation here. But always very sort of like the last word and and, you know, there were the flip side of that same coin is if you were super familiar, like Scott, he could really hammer you, like on the needing to be right thing. He was terribly cruel to Scott sometimes, and Scott probably survived and lasted because He was just as bullheaded. You know, he would let Harvey have [00:36:30] it. No holds bar, you know, just Yeah. Yeah, I. I had some kind of autonomy. Like I That really wasn't. I think we got in one big argument with another guy from the community, and I saw them kind of go at it with the the veins popping out. And I was just like, Oh, you can't win with Harvey. So does that explain? Does that answer your question? I'm just wondering, in terms of, like, tone of voice, [00:37:00] Was he kind of Was it a soft tone of harsh tone? Both both like, it could be it could be both. And then, you know, I mean, it was never harsh with me. Um uh, and you could see him drop down an octave, and it would be like, Ok, now, what I'm gonna say is serious. So let's Let's have you listen here. Um, but yeah, he he definitely was gifted in terms of communication and, you know, was really sort of fond of talking. [00:37:30] So there was lots of inflexion and lots of, um, engagement, you know, really sort of lived through the engagement. Did he change his language? Depending on who he was talking to, I'd say he probably did. Yeah. I mean, he could You know, Harvey is such a ball breaker. Um, he would insert vulgarity just to get people's goat, you know, because he'd be in heavy hitter situations and you'd see him, like, insert insert vulgarity just because he knew [00:38:00] the people would get their panties in a bunch, you know? And it was So he, uh he always had a sort of street aspect to him, which is I admired, you know, because I certainly always had that. And, um um, he I doubt if he ever was restrained for the sake of expediency, like he pretty much was himself and felt that that was sort of the the first, the first rule, [00:38:30] you know? So, yeah, what were your duties in the camera shop? Well, I was mostly customer service, so I was writing up people's orders, and, um and then I would stock the shelves because we didn't have this. We carried darkroom, uh, supplies. We did not sell cameras. Um, I answered the phones, so that was a daytime manifestation of the political campaigns. And then sometimes I would stay late [00:39:00] after I punched out and, um, work on the campaigns. I, I leaflet the, um, bingo games with him in the mission. Um, I registered voters. I walked precincts very little walking at precincts, but because I, I mean, I worked for the store 40 hours a week, So there was really not that much energy for politics outside of the store, Especially since I was super super involved [00:39:30] in all these art endeavours which they wholeheartedly supported. They came to that film festival that I described, uh, to support me. They came to some shows that I did. They were very much on that page of mentorship where you show up for the the good stuff like that, the presentational stuff. And that was cool, you know? Can you describe for me what the shop look like inside? [00:40:00] Well, it was some rec. Um, you know, they didn't have a lot of money. Uh, and, um, the it was a big open space, and they built it out with false walls that were were created by our friend to Tom Randall, who, uh, lived with them upstairs for a minute. And, um, he he's still a good friend of mine, and he took, like, cardboard [00:40:30] tubing. You know, like, say, the the tubing that up a roll of photographic seamless comes on. He took things like that, and he made furniture out of it. And, uh, they had a big, fluffy old couch for people to sit on and look at their slides. Like you. There was a long slide table. You could look at your slides and then, um and then there was, uh, a big conference room in the back, which is where some of the campaign stuff was happening. And, um and then Harvey had a very tiny office. And then there [00:41:00] was another room adjacent to that which had been various things, mostly storage. But at one point, it was a printing press, and, um, and that conference room was interesting because it had gone through several, um, mutations. Like before I worked there. There was a photographer that actually ran a studio out of it. Uh, Rick and he, um And then there was some licencing issue around the fact that they couldn't have [00:41:30] that in the store while they did something else. I don't know if it was the politics or what? But he had to. It had to stop being a studio. And then and then it, uh And then we actually held a little film festival. Uh, videos, not films there. And that actually predated, um, the frame line Super aid festival that I talked about, uh, and it was a one off. It was three days of videos, [00:42:00] but it was it never happened again. But there was some sort of targeting of Oh, maybe this could be, uh, a a film showcase place. And then I think AAA political campaign came up and that bumped all of the possible morphing in that space into exactly that, uh, campaign headquarters. And there it stayed in perpetuity till it closed. And so how many people could you fit in that space? [00:42:30] A couple 100 like that. That scene from milk, which is the Victory party, is sort of authentically based, I think, because it's the same physical space, and that's exactly how it was. You can see it in my photos. How many people sort of spilled out into the street. Right? So a couple 100 you mentioned a bit earlier about, um, printing and developing um, Harvey's photos, and I'm I'm guessing that things like, um, going [00:43:00] through a dark room process. I mean, that nowadays with digital is is kind of historic. So can you explain the I mean, it must be quite a joy to actually see something coming up from from a blank piece of paper. Can you explain? Well, um, we never did do processing on the premise there. Um, that that's actually a myth. That's part of the film. That's that's sort of a hybridization of of fact, [00:43:30] uh, we had a sister store in the hate called I food and that was independently owned and independently run. Um, but they did all the black and white processing for Castro camera, so there would be a delivery there in the morning. Uh, people would drop off their films, and then we shoot it over there by car, and and then there would be a pick up in the late afternoon and not necessarily of the stuff that was dropped off that day. This the [00:44:00] cyclical nature was about a three day turnaround. So this guy, Rick Nichols, who is still very much family he would process he would real process your black and whites and bang out a proof sheet for you in, like, 2 to 2.5 to 3 day service time. And so then Scott would go over there and pick up the that days, and you would come in at 5 p.m. to pick up your proof sheets or the next day. And, um, and I didn't [00:44:30] use his dark room. But that was that same era where we were all doing that. We were working with processing our own negatives and printing. I was actually working for the Advocate photographer Crawford Barton, uh, a free apprenticeship and, um, using his dark room. And then and then there was other people that kind of chipped in, You know that they use their dark room type thing, So it was cool. It was a good, good, um, supportive [00:45:00] environment in that respect, like people definitely were into sharing resources as part of the vision of co creating community like there was this generosity that was sort of a carryover from the hippie era. And so when you are developing something, is it like when you've shot something on film? Do you realise once you've taken the photo. Ah, that's the photo. Or is it actually only in development that you find this is the the the image [00:45:30] that I want. Ok, Uh, well, I wasn't really. I was kind of technically naive back then and and, of course, I was excited by photography on that sort of visceral level. But I don't think I really knew what a good image looked like back then. You know, it's like I wish I was a better photographer because there a lot of those pictures are so historically, um, potent now [00:46:00] and not a lot of them stood the test of time because I was really sort of sloppy with my technique. But I guess, you know, I guess I was like any other. I you know, I you'd see it come up in the tray and you'd be super psyched, you know, I don't know. I think I probably had less and less time for printing. As things goes, goes on. And in a sense, that did end up being the, um the gravity [00:46:30] of my own career has not been as a printer. It's been as a a shooter. So its sense, in a sense, it it got to be a secondary involvement. I think you know, for me, I'm I'm a people person, and I'm a a social engagement person. And so the solitary pursuit of the dark room was I always felt was subordinate in the sense that, yes, this is very meditative, and this is very artistic, but [00:47:00] no, it's not me. So I think a lot of a lot of that material I shot really hasn't seen the light of day simply because I was out there shooting new material. And that's kind of that imbalance still exists in my body of work. So someday there'll be, you know, some foraging going on. So So can you talk to me about photographing some of the some of the campaign photographs? And, um, had you done that kind of work before? [00:47:30] Had you been in those fast changing environments? Photographing, Documenting? Yeah. Um, well, you know, BAR Bay area reporter where Harvey had his column, uh, was a really rinky dink little gay rag at the time. And, um uh, and covering the whole, uh, old school drag ball scene. Basically, it it That whole culture, even known now in in retrospective, is profoundly [00:48:00] significant in terms of what it transformed. But at the time, it was actually sort of looked down upon in a way, although he he certainly had the wisdom to utilise it as a springboard for community discourse. And then he also recognised correctly that that the drag ball community was a huge voting demographic and they did help elect Harvey. And they were, uh, at the forefront of fundraising. They were [00:48:30] sort of the early prototype of what we see now in the nonprofit sector of, you know, really sort of shrewd fundraising and just a very sort of compassionate, uh, or a very passionate investment in terms of shaking down the philanthropic dollar. Um, and the drag community was always that, if not anything else, but they were. They were also like this amazing thing, so they would send me out. And so those were my first sort of editorial assignments, and [00:49:00] it was great because, you know, here again I was like being paid to photograph drag queens and theatre people, which I loved, you know. But I think it was short lived, I think I. I mean, they were paying me something like $15 a photo, And I think I went to blows with the editor who was kind of this really intense guy, Uh, on the the rate and and or repetitive, uh, utilisation issues. And, um [00:49:30] And then I stopped working for them, and I think I I had always imagined that I would increase my, um, connection to editorial. Uh, you know, income, but it it sort of didn't happen. I mean, I was really kind of, uh, in the avant garde scene more than I was in the sort of commercial scene commercial [00:50:00] editorial scene. And, um, yeah, uh, what was your question again? I was just wondering if you could take me through some of the, um, political campaign images. Um, and whether you had shot that kind of material before, um, how you shot it and and and why you shot it. I think there was a lot of cluelessness involved there because, in a sense, my focus was my friends, Like, I was photographing [00:50:30] my friends because that's what they were doing. And, um, you don't really see an eye for editorial historical acumen in my work till maybe the early eighties and and I can even tell you where I sort of had the light bulb go off over my head because, you know, I mean, in a sense, that community was so insular that I was allowed the eccentricity of only [00:51:00] photographing my friends. My friends just happened to be doing these very amazing things. But, um, that being the the Castro community, the theatre stuff, I was doing the drag stuff. All that was very sort of ethnocentric. Um And so in in the early eighties, I got the commission to do the Castro Street Fair poster because Scott became a sort of significant player on that scene on the [00:51:30] the repetition of the street fair year in and year out. And, uh, and I wanted to do this grid treatment where it was like 20 small square photographs that showed all the different aspects of the fair and I I set forth to edit that out of my body of work. And then I realised I realised that I was very sparse on a certain certain key, um, content, for example, male to male affection shots. I didn't have it or I had very little of it, And, [00:52:00] um and there was an awful lot of theatre people and drag queens. And so that was a bit of a wake up call. It was like, Wow, you really are eccentric here. And, um and that's been fun. But you really got to pay attention and start documenting your community a little more mindfully. Uh, so that Caster Street Fair poster was a critical learning curve for me, And, uh And so then I started shooting that way, Like shooting editorial, like, what is what is gonna tell the story in a better way [00:52:30] years from now? So are you saying that the images prior to that so the political campaign images were very much like taking photographs of friends rather than trying to document a situation or a little bit like somewhat incestuous, but also, I mean, you know, I my colleagues are definitely reflecting back in a very sort of, um, solid editorial way, you know, and and they're doing it kind of with political mindfulness, and and I'm [00:53:00] paying attention to that. But I'm sort of being I'm sort of being, um and petulant with my own particular kinks, which is theatre and theatre people. And and, you know, I think Harvey and Scott used to kid me about that. They'd be like, Oh, you know, Rink and, uh, Crawford go to this Castro Street fair and they come back with all these pictures of hot guys and all. Danny ever comes back with his pictures of drag queens and theatre people, you know, and they'd always bust my chops about that. But it was true. [00:53:30] You know, I wasn't really that the the erotic dimension of my work had not it, and it had not emerged yet. So, um, I was fairly I was afforded the luxury of being somewhat incestuous in that respect. You know, II. I did appreciate it in others work such as Crawford Barton, who was a teacher in a way. But I didn't feel compelled to emulate it [00:54:00] at all. On the contrary, I was doing my own thing, you know? So I'm wondering, how do you get people relaxed in front of the camera like I'm thinking of? So So when you're shooting your friends, how do you make it so that they are maybe unaware of you relaxed and and also finding the right moment to click that shutter knowing that you've only got however many frames in a role of film. Well, even as poor as I was, I always thought [00:54:30] film and I shot film. I actually shot a lot of film, and I and so one of the strategies was to just shoot enough that one of those was gonna sort of be the in between moment that we all crave, you know? And, um and I think it succeeded as a strategy. I think it was, uh, a liability on other respects in terms of, uh, a more practical, zen way of looking before you take the photograph. That didn't come to me till much later on through, [00:55:00] um, reentering college in the eighties. Uh, I had one teacher challenge me on that issue, you know, just like maybe you should just not take it and think about it before you. You know? Actually, take it and see what happens in that that dead time before you actually take the picture. So that was good. It didn't fit. It didn't fit me very well, I think. II. I entertained it for a minute and and then defaulted back to that sort of. I probably saw an [00:55:30] excerpt from a blow up of the movie of the fashion photographer going click, click, click, click and then decided That's what I want to be when I grow up, you know? So how many roles were you would you be taking? Um, well, back then, I you know, I would make a couple roles. The triax last a couple of weeks, but, you know, certainly by the time I have a studio in the nineties, I'm shooting 10 rolls of film per session. Um, the gay day stuff accelerates like by [00:56:00] the time I'm a mature photographer covering San Francisco Pride Parade, I'm shooting 14, 15 roles. Easy. So I never let go of the the, uh, idea of using still photography to make a sort of sequential deconstruction of what I'm photographing and that's stuck. It's kind of I'm stuck with it now. I can I can't slow down to save my life. Even when I played [00:56:30] with hus blood, you know, which was somewhat slowing. But I, I still sort of shot a lot of film. I set the camera on a tripod, of course, which did help slow me down and formalise me a little bit. So all that studio work, which is a 10 year period. There's some really beautiful, very, very formal, Aon esque kind of portraiture. So would you see your say, your parade or your fear or the political campaign photographs as [00:57:00] photojournalism? Or they're more personal than that? I would never classify that stuff as photojournalistic, partly because it never did get published. Um, partly because of many of the things we talked about already, which was I was too busy moving on to the next thing, uh, to really sort of cultivate the, um, post production aspect or the exploration of publishing as an income producer. Uh, and of course, now that is happening [00:57:30] because there's demand for that material. So that's nice because, you know, it forces me to go in and make determinations of what's editorially strong and how it could be licenced and marketed. Um, and I think there was a little part of me that predicted that, you know, that was like, I'll deal with that later. You know, so and it and it and it's shown up. So that's cool. Um, I have always been an artist. [00:58:00] I've always been an art fag. You know, I kind of love in milk that I'm I'm sort of depicted as this quirky little art because basically that type in the world is legion now. I mean, they they grew, they we grew them on trees. And now they're everywhere. Everybody's a photographer, you know? Everybody has tumbler. And it was an idea whose time has come. But really, in a sense, I was part of a, uh, revolution [00:58:30] in terms of what art schools were producing and how they how photography would become such an essential tool. What kind of camera were you using? My first was a pent. I bought a used Tex, and that was about 100 $69 for a 50 lens 50 millimetre lens. And that lasted a long time. That last me quite far into the eighties. It had been to the hospital a few times. I think I even got a second body at one point [00:59:00] and was even shooting with two bodies. And, um And then after I met Mike, I grew up and I got a contact, so I had a really beautiful I still have. It's sort of tragic that poor contact sits there just completely being ignored. And, um But you know what happened with, uh, Digital is I actually was being cultivated to shoot stills on milk, not as the primary, uh, still man, but as the sort of little [00:59:30] site editorial project. But they said you have to shoot digital. So I taught myself digital, and, um And then once I realised how great digital was for mixed lighting and stuff, I just never looked back like that context got put in a closet, and there it stayed, you know? So, um, it's frustrating because it's a beautiful camera, But I'm not willing to go through the extra effort that it takes to have film soup and go the Luddite path, because [01:00:00] digital is just so And really, since milk came out, my life has been super brisk, so there really isn't much opportunity to dick around anymore. And speaking of lighting, um, what are your thoughts on lighting? What do you use or or natural light or flash? Or I'll use fill and flash. You know, if if it's a bright day, I'll use film and flash. I mean, one of the disadvantages of being technically naive. Uh, all those early years and now [01:00:30] it comes back to bite me on the ass because the demand is for that material. Not for the stuff I shot in the the nineties or, you know, the turn of the century. And and, um, it time and time again, the material does not stand the test of time, either because I did use fell and flash or I was technically naive then negatives. Now, any number of problems out of focus images that in my imagination were possibly probably in focus. And then, of course, [01:01:00] when it comes time to scan them, it's like, Oh, fuck, you know? And it's the wrong kind of out of focus. It's not the ephemeral kind of out of focus. It's the kind that shouldn't shouldn't be utilised. So I think it it was really great for me to sort of finally just say, uh, you gotta you gotta at least carve out enough time to get your ducks in a row on the technical stuff so that the stuff will you'll have something to show for. And so I did do that, [01:01:30] and, um and I like, I like that part of it more. I mean, you can't have it both ways. I think if I had sort of sort of chain myself to my desk in the seventies, instead of seeking out the theatre world and the the Harvey milks of the world, I wouldn't have been in the right place at the right time. So I have to sort of accept the fact that I I didn't have proper balance then, you know, But, um, [01:02:00] given the choice again, I think I would quiet myself down a little better and and brush up, you know, had some painful, painful mistakes back then. So looking through some of your just amazing images, especially of things like, um, the victory celebration at at Castro camera and I'm wondering when you're photographing something like that, do you feel part of the event or are you kind of removing yourself from that? Especially when it's your friends? [01:02:30] Yeah. Yeah. No, I never was very good at, um, putting the camera down. And, um uh, having balance in terms of my, um uh, integration with the event, Uh, I do very much go to, uh, an isolated vantage point, and I I'm actually playing with that particular phenomenon a little bit more now. Uh, trying [01:03:00] to break that down a little bit, Um, within reason, because I really still feel that in the service of the social sector, people shouldn't be talking to the photographer. You know, it's like, don't talk to me. I'm working, you know, don't I mean, chat me up, but don't expect me to have a deep conversation. Now, if you got my phone number, fucking call me up, you know? And it's like so you know, most of my friends, they on [01:03:30] a molecular level, they're, like, get away from her. But, um, I think, you know, it's It's also part of the creation of the work to engage, uh, so but that I guess, in a sense, it's I prefer to dominate because, you know, I that I'm choosing to engage, and I'm choosing to coach or whatever. Um, [01:04:00] I don't know. You know, back then I was I was just as sort of, uh, remote. I would say and and really invested in the photographic process, to the degree that I was probably not that user friendly. I don't know. I mean, I see I see worst versions of it out there where people are just really sort of crude and rude. I'm not that. But on the other hand, I, I know how to negotiate [01:04:30] shared space to the degree that I can get what I want and enrol you in that process, you know? And, um, I seem to have a really good gift for that. Like, people really enjoy working with me and really enjoy that process. But I am a bit of a tyrant on a certain level, you know, in Inter internally, privately, like I. I will kind of send somebody a [01:05:00] smoke signal. Like that conversation is actually not gonna happen right now. And I'm gonna go and do What I've been doing is just covering this event. So you got y'all can enjoy these pictures later on because I post everything and people do get involved on a sort of communal level that way. And, uh, you know, I think in a, uh in a sense, the gesture is that it's like, well, you know, you can't have it both ways here, you know, And I'm out there enough [01:05:30] without my camera that you can chat me up later on. That would be the sort of subtext of not now for that? I don't know. I've never talked to anybody about that. So that was an interesting question for me, because yeah, and that could could work to your disadvantage. I mean, certainly like certain weddings. You have to go that little extra mile because they don't know you from Adam. They're not impressed. You're just this [01:06:00] dude, right? It's been, uh, since the fame came. I mean, not that I hadn't had modicum of visibility as an artist through the years, but it was definitely, never, uh, anchored to the success of being depicted in a feature film or the success of a such a profoundly, uh, far reaching film. Uh, it's changed the internal dynamics of [01:06:30] people sitting for you and people partaking in that process. You know, it it really, uh, the anonymity went right out the window, So I have to be OK with that part. That sort of invisibility that I used to have is never gonna come back. So it's very much phrased by the success of the movie Milk and and that's OK, because everybody's very eager to participate now, which is, you know, never been [01:07:00] a struggle before, But it was a challenge before. So now it's this whole different thing of everybody wants to play, but they, you know, it's the neutrality is is no longer there. Mhm doesn't seem to hold anybody back, though, you know, or myself. And I don't think it really impacts the the content negatively. [01:07:30] Ultimately, you know, don't I don't know. I don't know that yet. It'd be interesting to take a look at the work in a few years and see after post pre milk and after milk. How that changed. You know, one of the other interesting things I find, particularly in things like Harvey's walk to City Hall for his inauguration. Um, you're actually there before they come down the street. So actually kind of, um, being there prior [01:08:00] to an event taking place. So actually, having a kind of 1/6 sense to say something's going to happen, I need to be at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I you know, God, there were so many events where I botched it, though. I. I think I was just lucky in that particular moment, you know, to be, But I mean, really even back as far as the seventies. I think in a sense those of us that were photographers in [01:08:30] the LGBT communities. We always were like, um, salmon swim, swimming upstream where we, you know, like the parade is the perfect example. So you're you've got credentials, you're in the parade and it's it's moving forward and you're covering it. But then you've you've fallen back because you were focused on a particular entity or contingent or something. And then, you know, something else comes along and you have to follow [01:09:00] it back upstream and do your little deal and then fall back. And so I mean, when I when I used to photograph in the parade itself, I always felt like a salmon at the end of the day, swimming upstream, you know, it's just like, Wow, and that was hard work. You know, I would always be completely depleted afterwards, and I would have shot in 14, you know, or 15 really brilliant roles of film. But I'd be like, What? You know. So now I'm more into [01:09:30] the people setting up and the kind of portraiture I'm like, really, you know, more focused on the who's who of things and who's important in our community and who's here this year that should be documented, that kind of stuff, you know? And then I have my I still have my little like quirks, you know, like, I'll go to Fairy Freedom Village and I'll just hang out there for a couple hours with my friends. And you do see, uh, late in life. You see a trend towards not engaging [01:10:00] strangers anymore. Like I really can't do it anymore. Like I used to. I It's just the due diligence is, and the extra work in terms of enrolling somebody. It just doesn't work for me now. And I have so many amazing friends, uh, and and the creative people that are in the San Francisco community, it's It's like an endless supply of the most beautiful, most talented, most sort of exhibitionistic people. So I feel like [01:10:30] if my friends want to sort of be the first conversation there, then why engage strangers? You know, unless somebody is sort of iconic in terms of what they're depicting, You know, I will shoot this sort of shot that tells a story about the visitors to San Francisco or whatever, but I I'm really sort of, uh, ethnocentric stilt to a fault, you know? Hm. I think I spent, [01:11:00] you know, four hours in in Ferry Village last year because they gave me, like, the big fancy schmancy credentials. And, um, it just felt comfortable to be there with my my friends and not, uh, backstage backstage, for example, backstage at Gay Day is no fun anymore. It's this really sort of higher, higher. I have all access pass, but, um, it's this very hierarchical [01:11:30] thing with a certain amount of police presence, you know, because some of those people are pop stars and and I'm just like, No, I can't I'm not interested, you know? And I love the people that produce the parade. They're they're my dear, dear friends and I. I totally took my head off to them for doing all that, But for my content, that's that's no longer do you think in engaging with strangers? Um, [01:12:00] is it you kind of not wanting to go there or do you think actually, generally as a as a population, especially like in the Castro, have people kind of shut down a bit more? So it's It's not about engagement with strangers, but it's basically working with who you know, Um, well, I've aged. So of course there's this there is this newer, um, variable to contend with, which is, you know, I'm no longer this young hot thing. So I have to, [01:12:30] you know, I don't really want to engage strangers from the youth demographic because there's a sort of age dimension to it that really is just of no use to me, because I'm I have the most impressive people in the world want, you know, lining up to sit for me. So I'm not gonna go through that process of struggling to enrol a looker. If there's, I have to navigate that that age of stuff, Um, I do like heavily tattooed people. So that's quite often where I'll make an exception. [01:13:00] It's like somebody will be so absolutely stunning that I will, um, I'll, I'll go out of my comfort zone on that, Um And then when I had the studio, I actually had a sort of reverse psychology where I was sort of fed up with the enchantment that existed within the queer community with me, because having a studio was really great because people were in, you know, appropriately impressed [01:13:30] with studio work. Uh, and I made it, um, a curatorial decision to parade the queer community through my studio. And so that's a whole subsector of a body of work that I I intentionally cultivated. But then there were these moments where I would just be so saturated with that where I would just I would seek out a strange person that had absolutely zero invested in my visibility or fame, And they would be, And sometimes they wouldn't [01:14:00] be, um, queer, you know, they'd be, you know, a straight family or something like that. That would just be like a fun studio project to do, you know? And, uh, it was very I I noticed. For me, it was very much a an an alleviation of the queer identity thing. I mean, the queer community, I think I don't know how it is in New Zealand, but it can be a very demand. She's a very demanding girl. She'll take your time if you know she'll [01:14:30] take as much time as you'll give her. And she she has No, She makes no bones about that. So I think there were ways that I'd sort of resent that and fight back by doing work that was not attached to that identity, you know? What was it like doing that shot of his office? Well, see that? That's kind of what those moments are. Really? What sort of remind me of my [01:15:00] special proximity to him? Uh, because he would. He was very proactive. He would occasionally pick up the phone to me and say, This is happening. You need to come down. So he was mayor for a day and he said, This is happening. You need to come down. And I was and there were other photographers there. Uh, but it was by gesture of his invitation that I was there or because I I like I said I was a little bit clueless, and I didn't really have a mature vision realm where I should [01:15:30] be editorially. So, unfortunately, he saw fit to mentor me in that way, and it was exciting. It was kind of like the Marx Brothers had hit City Hall, you know, and, um uh, additionally, when he was dressed up like a a clown, there was, uh, an editorial photographer that was hired by the newspaper that was doing the the publicity piece for the the Ringling Brothers Carnival Circus. And, um, But Harvey [01:16:00] invited me as his personal photographer. So I got to go and you know, piggy back that so he would occasionally call me up like that and say, Come on down and do this thing. So it was It was cool. It was really, really cool on that level. I. I wished I had done more, you know? Uh, no. On six, I have almost no coverage of Not on six. For example, I just I Maybe I was working on a show or whatever, but I was absent [01:16:30] for that. So it's sort of ironic that I'm depicted as part of the think tank, you know, in in the film. No, but it's that's not the reality I I can see strategically why they would just sort of, you know, lumped me in with that group. But that wasn't my relationship to Harvey at all. So there was a lot of collapsing of stories in that just to to advance the the narrative of [01:17:00] a, uh, the short narrative time of a feature. But I think they distilled the sort of art fag aspect of it very well. Like to be this sort of gay, Every man, a newly formed queer identity, sort of covering covering everything as it's going on. I think that's fairly accurate, in a sense, you know, and and symbolically and metaphorically correct and serves, you know, serves the storytelling [01:17:30] very well. In that respect. How did his assassination affect you? Um, I was pretty traumatised to be truthful. Um, I tell a really good story, which is is strangely true. Uh, I was photographing the ballet Trocadero, you know, the all male ballet troupe. And, uh, we were in San Jose and I actually met the principal dancer, [01:18:00] uh, who invited me to come shoot from the wings at casual camera. And that was a good story in and of itself. But I'll just go. I'll cut to the chase. So we're in San Jose and we come back that Monday morning that Harvey's killed on a Greyhound bus, and, um, and as we're getting off the bus, I hear our bus driver talking to another bus driver who's parked there, and that bus driver says, Did you hear that Mayor Scotti and Harvey Milk were killed, [01:18:30] And then the guy says and then Harvey Milk's no loss, and I and I'm walking off the bus walking past this conversation and I'm like, What did I just hear? You know? And so then we get in a taxicab, and sure enough, over the radio comes the news. So I immediately started sobbing my brains out and was pretty much crying all day. You know, uh, interestingly, though, in a sense, that was a turning point, because I think both Scott [01:19:00] and I really utilise the preservation of Harvey's papers and, in my case, the documentation of the posthumous reverberations of Harvey's life. Uh, the the various, um, memorials that occurred throughout time. That was one of the ways we coped with our trauma was to sort of just make that our mission in life. And then, of course, when he died in 96 the torch was very much handed over to me, even though there's certainly other significant [01:19:30] players and people who made significant contributions to that effort. There very much was a lineage there, and I have to wonder if the two of them had not targeted me, had not designed me for that possible role in life. You know, like there was there was enough of a consistency with the attention to it that makes [01:20:00] me think they had that in mind, you know? I mean, nobody ever thinks they're going to be assassinated, but somebody hopes that you know, journalistically or editorially, that their story is told. You know, I think anybody who's kind of in a process like that would would have a mind for How do I make sure that this is positive, positive in history, in a tangible way. So I was really lucky in that sense, you know, And I, I really, [01:20:30] truly got the sense that more so for Scott than me. It was a tremendous coping mechanism, and partly for me, I. I enjoyed a certain amount of autonomy for many years because I was relied upon for the visual component. But I never had to spin. I never had to have a spin like I have to have now. So he was always the spokesperson, you know, they called him the widow Milk, and he was very forthcoming with a kind of [01:21:00] very sort of ADA that, you know, this is he was our Martin Luther King type of thing. And his story he needs to be preserved and and told. And, uh and he took that sort of passion to the grave with himself and, uh, and I up to that point, I always deferred to him as the spokes model. And and then after he died, little by little, it became imperative that I step up, you know, and I hated that [01:21:30] because I don't like public speaking, and I don't like revealing my political identities. You know, I don't like taking a stand. Ultimately, I just I'm kind of a still. I just prefer to be playful and not politicised, you know, in a way. But I understand the necessity of it. I mean, I was for you. I was talking to, uh, a student in, um, Romania [01:22:00] and, yeah, lots of little pits along the way. Like just it's it's kind of legion, you know, they they see the movie, they google my name, and, um, and then they they chat me up, you know, And it's a bit of a struggle because a lot of them just sort of think you're the latest video game, you know? And so it's I always have to kind of distil. OK, well, who's really kind of needs to sit down here and have [01:22:30] a chat and who just thinks, you know, I have a I'm the coolest thing since baked bread today, you know, and and, uh, I I love those kids too, you know, they're great. Um, and some of them are troubled. You know, there's some There was some suicidal ideas, and it's crazy stuff that comes my way. But, um, it's very much a prediction that Harvey made that that that would be the demographic that we would want to reach out to and need to reach [01:23:00] out to. And now it's here. So I'm not gonna not do it, you know? But my own, uh, for example, the post production phase in my work is really suffering now and has been, in a sense, because of the floodgates opening after the movie mill came out. Um, and and I don't mean to be greedy because I have produced two exhibits and they were very exciting and and, um, [01:23:30] nurturing and and towards the ultimate goals of publishing books. But I'm really at the point of frustration where I wanna publish. I'm sick of spinning. I want to publish books in my work. I want to posit them in history in a tangible way in case my memory, uh, degrades, um, or in case I get hit by a bus. Um, and I wanna do that. I wanna I wanna do it. I don't want somebody editing my work, you know, I've I've seen so many colleagues have other people, you know, they pass away [01:24:00] before their work gets edited by their own mind. And to me, that's a tragic thing. I don't want that to happen. So I'm actually considering moving up to Oregon. Uh, probably early part of next year where my lover has a house and I will, um, have the quietude to move into that second phase of of my my own body of work. And then, you know, who knows? Maybe I'll travel. Maybe I will grow in that [01:24:30] way where I can do the lecture circuit. And if there's books involved that might have to You know what I mean. Um, but, um, right now it's a little I'm a little frustrated. Yeah. Do you find with all of the interviews that or or do you think that with all of the interviews There will be a point where you you just have had enough of talking that you don't want to talk anymore. I don't know. You know, I, I think in a sense, [01:25:00] I I've never been very good at saying no. Um um, But, um, the irony of that is that collective memory is so fickle and the people's, except for a very sort of focused, uh, say doctorate project, [01:25:30] which is very topic specific. Um, people are only gonna remember these little sort of parcels of information and consolation. So I think, in a sense, my my spirit is that if you just keep on hammering away at it your deposit a small parcel of inspiration here and there and here and there that will be useful to somebody that will be useful to some [01:26:00] youngster that is possibly considering suicide or some youngster that is musing whether or not they want a career in photography. And and I get a lot of I mean, a lot of those the new legion of art fags. My work is resonating for them, and I get I hear from them. And so I feel like the the full essay is not what they're after. They just want the little sort of stroke, [01:26:30] you know. And so and that's usually for for me. When I look at other people's work, it's it's usually landing in a single paragraph of information or a a single photograph. And so I don't think it has to be this big tone, you know. But I sort of also strategically feel that by just waxing philosophically ad nauseum, uh, you'll get there. You'll get to that place where it's gonna be available, and it is [01:27:00] gonna land well with somebody and inspire them. And that's kind of why I do so many and, um and also I just, you know, I kind of follow the path of least resistance. It's like, OK, well, that guy sounds nice. You know, this work is good. He's devoted, you know? That's I. I will respond to somebody who's devotional about their work. That would be a first assessment, in my opinion, [01:27:30] you know, do you find there? Are you come across many people that maybe didn't like Harvey in the seventies, but have kind of done a complete about face? You know that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of you know, and you you get You get forgiving over time because you you have to realise that it's that sort of small pocket of information theory. It's like if somebody's gonna be involved in the solidification and the preservation of the legacy on [01:28:00] that level that has reached, I'm gonna pay attention to that even though I may have distaste for who the person is and how they're doing it, because I recognise the gravity of what it's effect, propagandistic or emotionally or inspiration will be. I will turn the other cheek to the mechanicals because I just get what what's going on now you know he is. Harvey is capturing [01:28:30] people's imaginations in a big way, and he would be tickled pink about that. He would love that, you know, he was definitely into reaching out and and reaching a lot of people. So I you know, I'm way more forgiving than Scott would have ever been, I can tell you that, but I have my limits, too. And I have put the Smackdown on people you know, for a perfect example. And this is this is I don't mind going public with this, but because I think It's a really compelling [01:29:00] example of how even Harvey would have been much more rigid about this. Uh, and Scott would have certainly at least held their feet to the fire. But, um, you know, one thing that a lot of tourists that come to the Castro go to is Harvey's restaurant there on the corner at at 18th, which used to be the Elephant Wa Bar, which was a very historically potent, you know, um, location and should be landmarked [01:29:30] ultimately, but and then, you know, the guy who on the The Elephant Rock got tired of the doing the business and retired, and, um, it became Harvey's, but it was always, uh, the property was always owned by Paul Langley, who was one of the biggest, most successful entrepreneurs in terms of real estate. He's one of the original gent of the Castro, and I don't really know Paul's history enough to know what kind of philanthropic work he did do [01:30:00] prior to electing to name his restaurant expediently Harvey's and then electing to expediently decorate it with seventies paraphernalia. Uh, it managerially and mechanically, they were kind of distasteful to me how they went about and did it. But yet at the end of the day, here's this place that has name and recognition. People go to it, they get their little history hit, they have their burger and they leave. [01:30:30] And those of us that know better He is the antithesis of what Harvey stood for in terms of, um, renters, protections and various grassroots energies. However, this all went down and I had distaste for it. Uh, but I I was wisely instructed by somebody, uh, a colleague who's in the nonprofit sector, who basically [01:31:00] said, You know, these people are educatable and and they will be, You know, our goal as a nonprofit is to slowly but surely enrol them in what that level of philanthropy should be, and they're not there yet, but they can be. They can be taught their responsibility in the community, and sure enough, within a few years time they did it. That business [01:31:30] finally grew up in that way. And I'm so glad I didn't like, you know, sort of harsh on them, you know, because that could have just closed them down, you know? And so I I'm glad that I kind of just took the low road on that. You know where Scott would have been Very demanding and like, you know. No, you can't name that. I can't name your rest ays without coughing up some money. So, uh, there's a lot. There's a lot of stuff like that, [01:32:00] you know? And there's Then there's all this folk art stuff happening where, you know, individuals just really they just take my image and, you know, steal it and make make whatever they're making. Uh, I think quilts or whatever. I you know, I don't have a problem with all that. They they're not cottage industries. They're just kind of folk artists, you know? So well, just finally, uh, you know, kind of going on from that II. I really love the idea [01:32:30] that photographs change and feeling and texture over time. So, you know, you take a photograph, you put it on the wall, and it has one kind of meaning. But then in 30 years time, you look at it again, and it can resonate in a completely different way. And I'm just wondering if you have any, um, kind of reflections on how your photographs have changed over time. Yeah. I mean, I think I think their self importance falls away a little bit, you know, [01:33:00] um, because because obviously, in the time space continuum, what is capturing people's imaginations today is gonna fall away tomorrow. Like Jose Sari is the perfect example. He is in his eighties. He was as important as Harvey Milk. The whole thing that he fostered, which is the imperial court system. The big drag ball communities in over 50 cities. I think at one point, uh, huge fundraising entity, Uh, they [01:33:30] all perished from AIDS. So many of them, uh, and then the leadership, which is him at the helm. And then there's still maybe another 20 cities that still have court systems. It's it's it's underappreciated now. And those are the people that really did dealt with a lot of, um, you know, tremendous adversity and harassment from so society and stuff. And so they're [01:34:00] I'm fortunate to be the bridging generation that has awareness of the old school and yet has, you know, AAA another awareness of what's coming down The pike and I will remain a vessel for appreciation of that. But my next generation won't necessarily have a direct connection to that, and it will fall away, regardless of the gravity of it. You know, that's why history is such an important tool [01:34:30] because it'll it'll still be positive and in such a way that if one wants to know, even though it's not on the public's tongue, they can't still go and find out. But it's what's on the public's tongue. That is really sort of where the currency is. And I mean by currency, I mean sort of metaphysical currency. You know, that's like, what are people engaged with? What's what's feeding their souls, what's capturing their imagination? Harvey Is it right now? And yet to me personally, [01:35:00] Jose SA, as is as important, if not more, you know, And I, you know, I could go into the reasons why, but they're trust me. They're solid, Um, and he's, you know, he's getting ready to pass on and drop his drop his mortal coil and and who knows? You know, if a movie will ever get made but should be so It's that kind of lineage where there's ebbs and flows and people's curiosities change, [01:35:30] and I think photography is very fleeting. Ultimately, you know, it's like it kind of drops away, you know, naturally. So I think. And also now with the sort of onslaught that happens in culture with photography. You know, people's attentions are diminished. People's investments are diminished. Um, [01:36:00] yeah. I mean, who who thinks about Bette Midler now? You know, right. When do you When do you talk about Bette Midler? I can remember being appalled that my new roommate was not into Bette Midler. What? You've got to be kidding me. You're not that impressed or invested or enchanted by Bett Miller. What? What is your problem? You know, and now you don't. You know, I saw the Vito Russo documentary and there's some Bette Midler footage in there. And her, [01:36:30] you know, her place in the pantheon of queer community heroes is solid. I mean, if you do the homework, it's there. And but yet, you know, ask ask the next guy on the street whether they care about Bette Midler, you know, and probably they don't. So I'm not that attached. Ultimately, I would hate it if my, um house burned down and my negatives burned. [01:37:00] Gareth was just like, horrified. He had that horrified look on his face that all the photographers could know, but don't you find it nice? Um, even if the public move on that, actually, you still have these images as Touchstones. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm I'm very classic in that sense that, um I my reality is very enmeshed with my body [01:37:30] of work and my journey to posit that work in in culture in a tangible way. Um, I've been very lucky, you know, to just kind of be able to invest so much energy and time in that, um and in a sense, in recent years, I've had to step back from that just out of a sense of self care. Like not to be so O CD about image making [01:38:00] and, um uh, at at the expense of the the intimates in my life, you know? And it's just like we can be very narcissistic. Ultimately, photographers can and, um, by necessity partly, But also I think there's limits, you know, and I think for me personally, when I reach levels of exhaustion or depletion around that world view and that way of existing [01:38:30] I I'm very happy that I'm teaching myself selfcare to the degree that I can put it down and put it aside and pay attention to the other dimensions of my life, which makes the return to it all the more joyous because you're just like I really earned this now you know. So before I was just kind of living it and that and that was that's that rite of passage of being a 20 something, but I'm no longer that.
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