This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. You can search the text using Ctrl-F, and you can also play the audio by clicking on a desired timestamp.
At the moment, I'm working as a curator at the at the Turnbull Library. Um, and before that, I've worked as, uh, originally trained as an accountant, um, and was an investigative accountant involved in in forensic fraud accounting, which was actually good, um, training for what I've done later. Because I then moved into journalism and then through that, moved into doing, um, radio radio work, which let me do longer form interviews. [00:00:30] So I started working in oral history, Um, and an actual history and and biography and writing. Um, in terms of queer queer projects, I've done some interviews for the Vietnam War Oral History Project, which I used to run for the Ministry for Culture and Heritage with a couple of Vietnam veterans who who were who are gay. And, um, that was one of the the criteria for why I think we were keen to include them in the collection and why I [00:01:00] was asked to do the interviews because I think by the time I did those interviews, I wasn't running the project, but I was I became one of the interviewers. So both those interviews are, um, are part of the Turnbull Collection um, deposited by the Ministry for Culture and Heritage. And they're both, um, unrestricted unrestricted interviews. Um, I did a paper for the stout centre, um, stout research centre in, um, in at Victoria University. That's a centre for this, uh, New Zealand Studies. [00:01:30] And that was to do with a thing called the Green International, which was a, um, sort of an alleged grouping of, um, homosexual people in the forties and fifties in New Zealand. And the allegation was that they controlled arts funding and got, um, arts funding at the expense of people who weren't, um, linked in with this group. So green apparently came from Oscar Wilde and the green carnation that he wore. And the international was, um, that modelled on, linked [00:02:00] to the idea of the, um, the Communist International. There is also a term called the, which is a sort of modified version of the, um and that was used in America and and in other countries to do with the idea that a similar idea of of the the so they call it, I think it later got called the Gay Mafia. So I did a paper about that for the man alone Conference, which was last year. So that's 2010 held, um, by the stout centre at Victoria University. Um, but the bigger [00:02:30] piece of work that I've been involved with is a is a book project to do with, um, a shooting that happened. But, uh, when the mayor of Charles Mackay or Mackay spelled Mackay M AC KAY but apparently pronounced Mackay in May 1920 shot Darcy Walter Darcy Creswell, who'd been blackmailing the mayor because the mayor was a homosexual. Now that began. And about 2005, I think when I was working at Radio New Zealand [00:03:00] now possibly earlier, um, and Prue Labine, a colleague, mentioned the story. She'd come across it in Michael King's history of New Zealand. I'd come across it in a book by Peter Wells and Rex Pilgrim, um called best Mates, which was an anthology of gay writing. But it had a very good essay at the front, which actually had quite a bit of gay history in it. And Peter had talked about this this story and really one of the things I've been looking at is the way the story has been, Um uh mentioned [00:03:30] it. It sort of pop. It's been suppressed, but it sort of pops up in all sorts of other settings as well. I, Prue and I decided to try and do a radio programme which we got commissioned. But we didn't finish it because we ran into some problems with you know who who who we talk to as part of the programme, how we'd actually do it. And then I actually left Radio New Zealand and did other things. But But then I've because I've been working as a historian. Um, my boss, who's the chief historian at the time at the Ministry for [00:04:00] Culture and Heritage, Bronwyn Daley said to me, Well, why don't you just think about, um in your spare time, pursuing this and seeing where it leads? And so I'm still thinking of doing a, um, a book about it, but it's got, um, a number of sort of parts to the research, and it hasn't been completely clear. Um, what sort of book it is, but but the research has been quite interesting, and hopefully there might be some things, um, in that that might help for this. You mentioned suppression, and I'm wondering, Have you encountered [00:04:30] a lot of, uh, having to deal with, uh or or finding hidden histories in terms of, um, let's say, the the Charles Mickey situation. I mean, we are talking about, um, hidden histories because but, um, the context changes over time, and that's one of the things that you've got to be aware of. And I guess that's the thing that sort of the more you learn about history, the more the more it teaches you. But at a basic level, you know, I'm I'm part [00:05:00] of what I'm trying to work out with this wui story was that after the mayor shot Darcy Creswell at some stage after that, the someone in the town chiselled san the name and the title of the Mayor of the Stone for the Sergeant gallery, which he'd built now and then that then got put back in the 19 eighties and in the archives in the Whanganui District Council. There is a letter, a memo from the the chief executive or the town [00:05:30] clerk, now the chief executive of the Council to the gallery director, saying, Um, please, um can this be put back and and explaining you know that attitudes have changed, but there should be no publicity for this now. I was led to that because the gallery director at that time said to me, he remembered there being a wreath lane. Uh, a a pink triangle wreath was laid by the gay group, the Wui Gay Rights Action Group. I think it was called, but he wasn't exactly sure when and then that [00:06:00] it was after that that the the name got put back on the wreath. So Prue and I went to Wanganui and we did some research and we found this memo, but I decided I'd try and find the, um, members of that gay group, which has been an interesting process. And, um, you know, one of the founders had moved to France but was actually in the process of moving back to Wanganui. And it's been surprisingly hard to pin down exactly when this thing happened and and and people who were in the group remember that there was, um, media coverage. [00:06:30] And there were, you know, there was even a radio interview and things, but I can't pin it down. Um, and in they have a a really good card index of, um topics. And and so it's often by a person's name. So you know when people, um, die when people are married. A note of that in the paper is put in this card index, and I found it very helpful for searching and it's got a bunch of topics, but there's nothing like this in it. And so, you know, I'm still trying to find if there was any media coverage [00:07:00] and Wanganui had two papers. It probably was in the late 19 seventies. But the other day when I was in Wui, it really brought it home to me that, you know, it's just not not considered important, not considered, um, seemly OK to be a topic for research. And I just thought, It's so much harder when you're researching these sorts of things because if it was, you know, a school or a park or you know something that and I'm not getting at the librarians, it's just the way I guess I. I sort [00:07:30] of am actually, because it's it's I've got no other way of finding this than just trawling through the papers because these ones haven't been digitised and and I've had a go at it once before, but I'm just gonna have a I will have to have another bash at it, but it does bring it home to you. How that it's it is harder. You you're you're really sort of up against it with us, for for whatever reason it is. It is hidden, but there are There are ways around it, and it is becoming easier all the time. Um, with digitization and other things that are going on with technology. Can you take me step [00:08:00] by step through what your research process is in terms of, You know, um, how you find sources what kind of sources you're looking for, how you start uncovering material. Yeah, I think I'm pretty good at finding stuff. I'm not so good at, um, at, um um, not getting lost in it and and and and organising it, um, so I think it is important. It's important to sort of have a A research plan. I think sometimes what keeps your research on track is is your particular [00:08:30] output. I think at a basic level, if you don't have a things like word limits and deadlines, you're gonna struggle. So those might come from this being something that you're doing for journalism. You might just be researching because you want to write something for the paper or a documentary or something, or you might be doing this as part of an academic thesis and that gives you a deadline, or you might be doing this as part of a book. Now the problem I've I've struck is that I don't necessarily have a an agreement. I don't have an agreement with a publisher, and, um, and [00:09:00] other books I've done that's what's really kept me on track is sort of, you know, where's that manuscript? You know, we need this by the state. We need this many words, and that means you just cut your cloth to fit the time you've got this story. It's not completely clear to me what the story is is about. I mean, I've got a better sense of it now, Um, and it is. I have a feeling with this one that it's it's still emerging. And there have been some strange, um, coincidences, which is perhaps another part of the research, um, [00:09:30] story in a way that just to be aware of, um, unexpected coincidental things that can sometimes emerge as part of this, which is not something you can you can plan for, but at a basic level. What you're doing when you do this sort of thing, was you you probably I think you start with what they call the secondary sources. So if you're interested in something like this story, you would want to start by looking at where is it referred to in other books. So, um, Prue had [00:10:00] heard about it in the Michael King, um, history of New Zealand. There was also a reference in the Michael King's biography of Frank Sarge, and I'd seen it in the, um, mates and lovers best mates. Sorry. Introduction. Um, so I think that's always wise to do, because what that can show is that someone's actually done it all. You know, there may actually be not, um, any. You know, you may decide at that point that actually, it's not really worth doing spending your time, um, taking it any further. Then [00:10:30] once you've done that, then you can start to think about original research, which is really exciting, because that's where you're actually getting into, um, what they call primary primary records. And so for this case, I think what Prue and I did we went to Wanganui and which seemed obvious because the shooting had happened in Wanganui. And we looked at the, um, council archives and we looked at the museum archives, and we we sort of looked at people to talk to. Now, this happened in 1920. Um, at that stage, the mayor did still have a daughter who was [00:11:00] alive, and she Prue had two conversations with her, and she was very, um, unhappy about us working on this project. So that was a That was a problem for us. Um, not just that we didn't have a I mean, that was really the only person we knew of who might have, um, had firsthand knowledge of the story. Everyone else, it was all here say they were quite a lot younger. They were removed from the story. They only knew what they'd read. Or perhaps what they'd been told, or what someone had told them. You know, it was sort of very 2nd 3rd hand, but also [00:11:30] just, you know, in terms of, um, ethical practise it, it was, um I think we both. Um, I think it was a factor in why we both delayed it and didn't sort of, you know, push push through. What we Because if family members are unhappy about what you're doing, it it it it makes you pause and think, Think about what you're doing. There was a certain amount of material in Wanganui. Um, but then we also looked in the archives and unfortunately, um, for us, Wanganui archives come [00:12:00] to Wellington and and so we were able, um, to find quite a lot of material in Wellington. So, for example, the trial file for the original, um, shooting. So when Charles Mackay was tried for attempted murder, that is in the archives in Wellington. That's not, um I don't think that I might No, I had to. We had to apply for permission for from the high court in At that Stage For that and and things about permissions, um especially [00:12:30] in archives, are changing all the time to do with, um, law changes and and the status of records. So, um, and things are so often have restrictions for certain periods of time. We found Charles Mackay's bankruptcy file. We found his divorce file Because when he went to court, uh, when he went to prison, his wife, um, filed for divorce and then by accident, really? We found his prison file, and that was an interesting one because we were just This is a strange thing that probably [00:13:00] would never happen again. But the person on the desk at archives recognised the name and said, Oh, I think, um, uh, we've got, um this person's on the card index that we have of prison files. And sure enough, it was. And so, um, I don't think all prison files were kept, but but for some cases, and I mean, this perhaps was quite a high profile case, Um, involving a very high profile person, the mayor of a town, Um, that was kept. And so we had to apply for permission from the [00:13:30] fact the Minister of Corrections to look at that. And that was an amazing thing to find because they had a photo photos of the prison photo. It had a whole lot of censored letters and amazing um, resource. And not many people had actually found that, um and and to this day, that is not actually on the database, Um, at archives under his name. The way archives works is that not everything is described to that level. So we were still very lucky to actually come across that, um [00:14:00] And then obviously, newspapers are quite important. So, you know, finding what was, um what was, um, recorded there? Those that's really the process. I think you go through as you sort of you move from the secondary sources, which is, um, and then then into the, um, primary. What I've sort of as I've gone to this one of the areas I've had to look at is more of the secondary stuff to get an understanding of the context around, um, the individual sort of story that I'm coming across. The other thing that I've mentioned [00:14:30] is, um, Gene and I know Chris Brickle, who is again someone I I've consulted with us. I mean, one thing to do is to, you know, get in touch with people who are experts in this area who are good at queer research and also, you know, have credibility as queer scholars or scholars of queer staff. And Chris Brickle is one of those and, um so I've talked a lot to him about it, and he's been really good at UM, suggesting lines of inquiry. But he's also a genealogist, and genealogists [00:15:00] are are really helpful. Various research projects I've done, Um, it's always worth talking to them and learning about how they go about researching, because genealogy is really about hunting down tracking individuals. Um, I think that can be the problem with it. Sometimes. Is that it? It sometimes is the individual not in in a broader context other than as a in a family tree. But it's quite good sometimes to just find in various, um, families that you're researching the person who's doing [00:15:30] the family tree. This one. I've found people in all the families of people associated with it, just about who've been doing family trees and they actually still sending me stuff. Um, this one is a you know, with queer stuff. It's tricky. I mean, you've got to, um, suss out with her, um, what people's attitudes are to, you know, if this elements in their story some, you know, I have struck it where people, um, I found descendants of, um, one of of the siblings of Charles [00:16:00] Mackay and and um, you know, one was well, would talk to me but wasn't very comfortable about this whole thing. And the other one was was fine about talking about it. So you just have to tread carefully and and respect people's wishes. And, you know, behave as if it was your family, really and be. And I think as long as you're respectful and show people that you're taking it seriously, um, and being professional and ethical about it, then that's, um you've probably got a pretty good chance. And the thing that's sort of in our favour, I suppose, [00:16:30] is that this is getting progressively easier, I guess, and and the further away you move from something that might have been scandalous in its day. Um, it's it's easy. It gets easier to talk about it. Helen Shaw is a woman who was doing um, who knew Darcy Cresswell and and really respected him as a writer because he became a He was a poet and a writer. She was doing a collection of his letters, and she wrote to the people of she wrote [00:17:00] to the library, and she wrote to the council, and the town clerk wrote back to her and said, You know, because it's in her time. You see, she was doing this in the sixties. She didn't even know what date the shooting had happened. It's pre Internet. It was a heck of a lot harder to just find things. I mean, and there was no, um, there was nothing like the Dictionary of New Zealand biography, which actually just to jump out and talk about that. That was quite an important thing was that the Dictionary of New Zealand biography had decided to [00:17:30] include Darcy Cresswell and Charles Mackay as biographical subjects now, so you can't underestimate the importance of, um, projects like that. And again, that probably says something about our time that we I think certainly Charles Mackay was included because he was an important um, it contributed to the understanding of the history of sexuality and how things have changed for homosexual men over time. So William Broughton, who was in the English he's an English professor [00:18:00] from Massey, was commissioned to do those two, essays. He had done a thesis on um, New Zealand writers that included Creswell, so he was pretty familiar with Crewe's work, and I think it'd come across the story as part of that. But then he researched Charles Mackay's Um, life. There are files on those biographies at the Ministry for Culture and Heritage, which they will let researchers consult. And again, that's really useful because they do a lot of, um, genealogical research, archival research and fact checking. [00:18:30] Um, so again, it can stop you having to go down the same road again. Um, because, you know, also again, it's getting easier and easier to get things like birth certificates and stuff. But back then it was quite expensive, and so they'd done all that. You know, they've got Charles Mackay actually died in Germany, and they actually went to a lot of trouble and expense to find his death certificate in Germany, which back then was quite difficult to get. So, um, that's that's worth knowing about. And that was yeah. I mean, that's why the secondary source check [00:19:00] is quite important, because if you you could sort of just hear often and, you know, look at the newspapers or whatever, but to to know and it's actually been a big thing is is like thinking Well, what could I say? Actually, about the story that's different to what William Broughton said in that that thing, um, that see, that wouldn't have happened, um, in an earlier period. But there, Helen, Helen, um Shaw wanted to find out when this thing was, and they sort of told her when it was and, you know, these people said, Oh, I can remember that from when I was a small child. But he said in the in this letter [00:19:30] in the late sixties, he said, since the letter was an unsavoury one, and since there are still members of Mr Mackay's family living in, we suggest you either tone it down or leave it out all together. So you know, that sort of illustrates for me, but and even I, I was curious, too, after the reaction we got from Charles Mackay's daughter of You know, how are we gonna go? And how would people in um, feel about talking about this? A couple of questions jump out to me, and one of them is [00:20:00] when you are looking at secondary sources initially, how do you know when things aren't there? I mean, how how do you know? Is there something that's going off in your head saying, Oh, this doesn't add up. Or what are the things for you? Yeah, that's a that is That is a hard thing. And I know I can remember really Early on, One of the things I said to Prue was that I didn't want to put a gay label on this man. Um, you know, I was really [00:20:30] wary of, um I mean, this was a man who had been He was married. He had three. He'd actually had four Children, but three were alive then. Three daughters. Um, he, you know, he wouldn't have Necessarily. Even then, I was sort of thinking, Well, he wouldn't have necessarily identified as gay, and and we sort of thought, Oh, perhaps he'd be, you know, as we would have now thought of as bisexual a. Another part of the story is that in the court case for the attempted murder, he pleaded guilty. And then when [00:21:00] it came to sentencing to try and reduce the sentence, his lawyers put produced evidence that he'd been treated for his homosexuality in 1914. So six years earlier. And there was a statement from a GP and a specialist who was called a meta physician, and that's been one of the big lines of inquiry is to try and work out. What would the treatment have been? And and you know what even was a meta physician. Um, And but really, where I've come to now, all these years later is that actually, the homosexuality [00:21:30] is the point of the whole story because, um, and papers passed as a great resource for researchers. And that's a database of, um, newspapers put up by the National Library. Now it's not all New Zealand newspapers, but it's a good selection of them. And it's, um, tech searchable. So when you put in Homosexual into that, the only articles you find before the story of 1920 are stories to do with Oscar Wilde, which was in the 18 nineties, [00:22:00] and another case to do with a scandal in the German Kaiser's army called the Erber Eber affair. And that was sort of 19 06 19 07. Now, when you start to look at the scholarship around those, those two things were regarded as labelling events and when the concept of the homosexual arrived in Germany and Britain, and that's when I suddenly thought maybe this is our labelling event. Um, because Chris Chris Brickle alerted me to early on very early on. He said to me, that's a really [00:22:30] early use of that word. He said it wasn't really used commonly in New Zealand until the twenties, late twenties. And so in 1920 you've got this word used and because it was used by Charles Mackay through his lawyers and his doctors, Um, I've realised that I've sort of come all the way around to thinking, actually the homosexual angle and this is the point. And that's why you know, the way I'm thinking about it now is you know, New Zealand's first homosexual in quote marks. Um, [00:23:00] just remind me what your question was again about the, um there was something else. When you're looking at secondary sources, what do you need to be aware of missing? Um, yeah, that is a really good question, because I mean, I think I don't know whether the medical history stuff is a good example. I mean that I think I've worked out what the treatment was. I think it was to do with hypnotism, but it's taken quite a circuitous route to find that, um because I'm sort of I can I just can research endlessly. [00:23:30] You know, um, you know, I've I've read Memoirs of the German ambassador's wife. Um, even before Charles Mackay was in Berlin, you know, just to get a bit of a feel for he's sometimes working out what's what's actually relevant. Um, you just need to be I think you need to look at the sources. Um, you know, always look at when they were, um, done. I mean, and so it can be really valuable to look at secondary stuff from the time. So I tracked down [00:24:00] a a talk that the head of the prison service gave, um, actually, at the time Charles Mackay was in prison. And because this man Matthews pops up all the time in Charles Mackay's file and so I don't know how I I must have been trying to find stuff about the New Zealand prison system and and there was this big talk that this guy had given and it got published, and it's really helpful. And it's got photos and things. Um, there was a if you're talking about queer stuff, um, [00:24:30] like there was an inquiry into mental defectives and sexual perverts. Um, in the 19 twenties and that's been looked at quite closely for what it says about eugenics and the and things. But homosexuals got got lumped in, um, and amongst the and in that group in that grouping And what what I've realised is that the prison system was categorised was based on a system of categorising offenders [00:25:00] and that, um and, um, homosexual men and and homosexual covered a broader range of things than what we think it does now. So, again, this is where the research, um, you it it sort of changes the way you see things. But it is important to start to look at that. That research, because what I've realised is that I mean things like, um, child sex offenders. Um, Peter [00:25:30] and things were all grouped as regarded as homosexuals. And, um, and even, you know, when people talk about homosexuality being illegal, it wasn't just sodomy or buggery that was grouped under that. Or apparently, you know, other other things, like mutual masturbation stuff would be, could be sort of grouped under that. So you have to be very careful when you're interpreting. Um sources. But there was this inquiry and And what it made me realise is that [00:26:00] one of the prisons that Charles Mackay got sent to, he was transferred to five prisons. He was transferred seven times, which is pretty amazing in itself. Um, for, uh, that he was only in prison for six years. But of course, the thing you have to be careful about is that I've only ever I've looked at two prison files, but I've really only looked at one prison file. So I think this Prue and I had no idea when we looked at this, How unusual was this? I think it probably was quite an unusual file, but But you've got You've got [00:26:30] to remember that, you know that you might. So you're always trying to establish the context. Anyway, One of the prisons that he was in was New Plymouth. Now, at that time, New Plymouth was set aside for sex, homosexual sex offenders and I. And then it's also at that time that the inquiry into mental defectives and sex offenders is has actually had some meetings at New Plymouth Prison when he was there, and Charles Matthews, the head of the prisons was very involved in this inquiry. So [00:27:00] I guess I'm saying this to sort of there was, You know, I now think that context is incredibly important. And and Mackay didn't want to be in this prison in New Plymouth. His family actually lived very. He had a sister, two sisters who lived in New Plymouth. So and one of them just lives down the road from where the lived down the road from where the prison is still. But on the file, there's a there's requests, you know, Please, can I be transferred? And also, that's the first time in the whole period he's in prison, that he's having to do hard labour. He was sentenced to hard labour, but he hadn't had to do it until then. [00:27:30] And there are discipline reports in this file, but there's nothing to suggest that he'd fallen out of favour. But I can't help thinking, um, that it's something to do with with, you know, he was in prison for attempted murder, but I think he was being regarded well, there are references to him being a sexual pervert, so that was obviously how he was seen. So I just this isn't really answering your question, but you. You just have to be very vigilant, really, and just and and And this means you've got to sort of keep track of things. But it's [00:28:00] really only after this many years down the track that I've sort of realised that I think there might be more to him being in New Plymouth prison than than I'd originally thought. Do you have any, um, tips for? I mean, I can see that context is incredibly important, but there must be a point where you come to where you actually try and work out. What is the relevant information? How do you How do you distil down into what is relevant for your research? You need to You need to research smart. I mean and [00:28:30] and and really, the best thing is to be using your time for the most important stuff, you know, And I mean from working at Radio New Zealand and and the, um, really skilled reference librarians that are here and and other librarians I've worked with, I've seen how you know there is a way of researching targeted research so that you spend the time in the places that are worth spending time in, And that's why it's better to, um, think that way rather than and try and be a more targeted researcher than just Blind [00:29:00] Googling, because a lot of the things that are available online are not publicly available. So, for example, there's a thing called the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, which is England's biography. And unlike ours, it's not publicly available. So you either have to find a place that has a subscription to that or, you know you can pay for access to it. Now that's got a biography, um, of a guy called Hector who, [00:29:30] um, was a gay New Zealand expat writer who hasn't been well, um, isn't really well known here because he really left. New Zealand became a very famous royal biographer, but that's got a really important part in it that he apparently left New Zealand because of the shooting in. Now I would have never, um, never known about that if I hadn't. So you've got to Yeah, and I mean, how do you It's by having a bit of a plan having, um, I think trying to it's [00:30:00] These are the skills that historians have got I mean, they and and it's not just doing the research, it's actually what you do with it. But I suppose if you've got the clear sense, I mean, what they're trying to do is, you know, to have very clear research questions. See, that sort of guides you to keeping you on track as well. That's why I'm saying I'm not such a good Um, I Maybe I'm not as focused as as, um as I could be, but but I guess you know, it's It's the It's sometimes the some we're talking about research [00:30:30] for its own sake, but often there is an end product in mind, even if it's just an interview or something. Um, but that that can kind of guide you, but probably you know what? What is it that you're actually trying to work out here? Um, that sort of guides you, because then you can actually look at the secondary sources and we Well, that's relevant. That's not relevant. But but be aware that, um, increasingly, you know that. Well, just as you know, you might have to interline a book or buy a book. I mean, stuff on. Don't just assume that everything you're gonna want to find on the Web will [00:31:00] be easily available if you don't have access to these, um, stuff that's behind pay, subscriptions and things, I guess also with the web is that if it doesn't come up on the Google search, it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist, does it? I mean, it it it might not be on Google, but it might be out there somewhere. Yeah. And I mean, if you're part of a university, you know, universities are about the last place in New Zealand. Well, maybe there are some commercial places, but, um, universities subscribe [00:31:30] to a lot of databases that can, um, so students are very lucky. So if you've got a way of accessing that or else, um, your local library, um, libraries have all got, um, skill trained, sort of, um, research librarians. And they have a certain number of, um, databases that are available. I mean, there are amazing things available now. There are, um, historical newspaper databases now, so you can So Charles Mackay was killed in Berlin in 1929 so I was able to find, you know, [00:32:00] the New York Times articles, articles in um, Canada and articles as well as articles in England and and other countries. So there's there's stuff. Yeah, I. I wouldn't I wouldn't really, um I wouldn't Really. Google is just You could just waste a lot of time. You you have to actually do more, sort of targeted, and, um, something I've learned to do, too, is to take notice of people's references. So, you know, when I was wanting to research in Germany because I [00:32:30] when Charles Mackay was killed in Berlin, there was quite a controversy about it. And there's quite a lot. I suspected there would be a bit in the archives and there's there's a huge amount in the archives, but but I don't speak German, but I had German speaking friends helping me, but what I did was I. I found books about the riots that he was killed in. And I looked at the references and, um, like I looked at the history of the German. He was killed by a German policeman. So I found a history of the German police, which has got references in it to, um because, you know, these sort [00:33:00] of books will be based on original research. And so if they've been done properly, they'll have their references in there. And so I was able to use these references and then take those to the archives in Germany, and that led me to the files on Charles Mackay. So that was really, really lucky. And in some of the archives, you could just work like you can here, you know, give them names and and they'll find what they can. But it was a great thing to be able to. Um, that's another reason why secondary sources can be quite helpful. Is it really important? Like right at the get go to actually define what [00:33:30] you're researching and why you're researching it. Do you Do you think that actually, it's really important to have that clear in your mind at the start? Or is it something that just kind of evolves over time? No. No, you should have it clear. I think the trouble with me is that it's been an evolving thing, and that's probably not such a good thing. Don't do this. Um, yeah, I think it does depend on on the purpose for the research, actually, but yeah, ideally, and even if it's just, [00:34:00] um, a couple of research questions, and that also makes you look a bit more professional if you're going to talk to people. Um, because it it's a clear sort of sense. I mean, usually there is a sort of a, um uh, you you can sort of distil it down into a research question of or two or whatever. Why? Why you're looking at this and yeah, it will change over time. And that's the beauty of doing the That's why you're doing this is because you are trying to find you're trying to. I think of this as trying to move the move, our understanding of something forward, and and and I and [00:34:30] I'm always, you know, you're acknowledging the work of people you're building on the work of of people who came before you, and you won't be the last. I won't be the last to be looking at Charles Mackay. Um, but you're part of that sort of continuum. But that means, yeah, you got to be clear about what you're doing at that time, and and so you. It just makes sense to be clear about what's been done before and also about being your practises as you go forward, you know, documenting your references and that sort of thing. Those sort of things are really, really important. [00:35:00] How much weight would you put on kind of understanding yourself as a researcher, you know, knowing why you're doing what you're doing, knowing your own kind of prejudices and and where you come from, How how important is that for you? Yeah, I think I think it's really important. I mean, I think there is a view I think historians might have. Some historians might have argued that, you know, you're you, you're just being objective and you're not really there. But I think [00:35:30] I think, um, as in journalism, I think, um, there's this other idea that that you can't help but be influenced by your background and what you bring to it. And I would have loved to have had to talk to Michael King about the way he, um, handled Frank Sarge and sexuality in his book. And and again, it's a consequence of that that was written in the eighties, I think, was it and I mean, you know, things have, things have changed. Um, since then it would, you know He sort of said that a biographer's duty is [00:36:00] to go as far as the bedroom door, but not beyond, um, which some people might might take issue with. But, um I mean, people have said to me, You know, why are you interested in this? Look, look inside yourself and and, um, ask yourself, Why? Why has this story about Charles Mackay and things got you interested? And I think it's to do with being gay. Um, I haven't quite quite figured it out. And you see how being gay made me [00:36:30] sort of hyper conscious of, um, not wanting to label him as gay. But I've sort of realised years later that actually, I think it's the point of the whole story. But that's not that's not a bad process to have gone through, um, and I. I guess what you're trying to do is you're always trying to imagine yourself into another time. I mean, and that's the skill of of historians is that they can They can do that, you know, a quote that and put me on to, uh, from a talk that Greg Denning, [00:37:00] a historian, that she, um, always talked about an Australian historian. He said something like, You know, the worst thing that we can do is to imagine, uh, that our the best thing we can do when we're thinking about our ancestors is to is to imagine it's just us in funny clothes. And I've really like that idea that you've just got to allow people. You've got to see people in their own context. So part of that is acknowledging you and where you sit and that you're, you know, a person who's come from a particular [00:37:30] generation and and, you know, the people they people you're looking at and also all the people you know, the people in between are in different time contexts. I suppose that's why I like talking to Chris Brickle because he's a sociologist and that's a that's a He's a He's a sociologist who writes good history, but he comes at it from a sociological perspective, which is very much about looking at people in their environment. Hm, yeah, you're thinking of you. And as part of that you know your discipline and where you the skills [00:38:00] you're bringing to it as well. Um, as as a researcher, I think probably to be aware of as well. And there might be things that you know you're not so good at where that's where you might get help from people, and that can help keep you on track as well. Is there a difference? Do you think between being an independent researcher or having the backing of an institution or uh, having a publisher for for a book? Do you find that people treat you differently? Yeah, there are swings [00:38:30] and roundabouts. I mean, probably if you're not in an institution, you've got a freedom that you don't have if you're in in in an institution. But on the other hand, you know it's hard for independence. Um, the freelancers, because they don't have the the resources, the institutional backing. But I, I don't think, um, I don't think it's necessarily a barrier. I think, uh, I think it's good to have published some stuff. Um, I think that's probably what's helped me is that that have done a couple of books and in particular a biography, [00:39:00] Um, that that was published by a really, um, well known New Zealand publisher. I think it really helped me. I think I wouldn't have felt as confident. Yeah, and it's been It certainly is hard not having a, um, not having a publisher for what you're working on. Um, and that's my thinking at the moment is that I really need to just pull some of these ideas together and do an outline and proposal and start a bit more actively taking it around some of the publishers, [00:39:30] because I just I think I'm just That's just the sort of person I am. I just need that, um, structure of, um, deadlines and word limits. But no, I mean, both of them would Would would have swings and roundabouts, but it's not necessarily a barrier. And people don't necessarily treat you, um, any differently or worse or whatever. If you if you aren't from from an institution, so you would have been able to access things like the prison records if you hadn't been, say, working at Radio New Zealand, as if [00:40:00] you've just gone there by yourself and said, I'm I'm interested in this Well, I don't know, although I mean, I'm I've I've had to reapply for access to that file, and when I initially got the access, I had to apply to the Minister of Corrections. And we did that from here through through Radio New Zealand. I've had to since do it directly to corrections and and just as an individual. But, you know, I've written letters, um, emphasising that, you know, I'm a bona fide researcher, and I you know, I'm doing this for a [00:40:30] biography and da da da so And, um so you see, both, Both both ways. It sort of worked. And, um, I've had a good good relationship with, um, corrections, actually over getting access to stuff. It's a nine. There's 100 year rule for prison files. Um, I think linked them with the clean slate legislation. So for something that happened in 1920 Well, 20 to 26. You see, I'm still well with inside the 100 year, even though part of it, when I wrote the letter, was to say, you know, this man's not [00:41:00] alive, and actually, now none of his Children are alive either, So, um, yeah, yeah, it's I like to think it's more about having your arguments and your credentials kind of there rather than who I was or whether I was in an institution or not. Have you come across any time when the your research has been stymied because it's it's it's queer related. No, it's funny. You you may not even necessarily [00:41:30] know that What I have run into is that I think genealogists, you know, saying genealogists are great to work with, But what? I got a fright. And this one was realising that there is a genealogical convention that you don't provide information, um, relating to living subject living people. So I sort of wondered why I was being given information to a certain point because what I was trying to do was to get to the get far enough down so that I could basically hit the phone book [00:42:00] or the, um, electoral rolls. Um, because I wanted to find people who were alive and see whether they had any memories or any information about this. Um, so sometimes that's that's not exactly what you're talking about, but no, no, not, um, not directly for being sort of queer research, as I say. I mean, I gave a talk about this as part of Whanganui Heritage Weekend late in 2011, and, um, one of [00:42:30] the reasons I was pleased to do that was to see whether and it was any sense of it being a thing that wasn't OK to talk about. And there was no sense of that. I mean, it might have been that those people didn't come to the talk, but people there were very interested. So I think, you know, maybe, um, the death of the final daughter has had something to do with it That that people had suggested that that when she was alive, there was a sort of a difference that people didn't didn't talk about it out of respect to her. And I [00:43:00] sort of observed that it seemed to be a bit of a difference in the in the attitudes of people who were from and people who sort of had moved to the people who moved to were very keen to talk about it. But the ones who are from were less keen to talk about it. And we wondered whether that was to do with a suspicion that we were gonna do something that made the town look bad or something. But certainly I maybe I've been working on this for so long. Things have changed, you know. There was no sense of it being a thing that was not right to talk about when we did the Heritage weekend, [00:43:30] which is good. So in trying to communicate with the Charles Mackay's daughter, Um, how did you go about that? What? What was the kind of how How did you approach her? Well, I, I regret that I, um both times I checked out and got through to do it because, um, I thought Prue makes Children's programmes, and she's lovely and no one can be nasty to her. But so Prue knew that this might be the only chance we ever got to talk to her. So Prue took some quite good [00:44:00] notes, which was really good. So, um, I think we we talked it through. She knew to be very careful about documenting because this might, you know, as it was, well, we had one more chance because I think we rang her again after we found the prison file, because I think we were thinking, you know, we got quite a shock to see the photos, the prison photo and the letters and things. And and especially when we read that the letters had said you know. Do you have any news about my Children? I mean, it was very personal stuff, and so we thought we'd alert her to that. But, [00:44:30] um, she wasn't really that that keen on that? Um, no, it was just cold calling. But I know the second time I remember Prue saying, um to me, you know, she said, Well, you you might be more used to this being a journalist, but I'm not. And and she found it very hard. And and like I said, I think it kind of was a thing that made us. It probably is a reason why we didn't really pursue it, because, um, it was such a hostile resistant, uh, such a resistant [00:45:00] reaction to being contacted. But that's that's fair. That was her call. Do you have any tips? Uh, coming from your kind of journalistic background in terms of trying to get on side with people that you cold call them. You have to, um well, you see, uh, different approaches can work for different people. You, you might want it might be better to write. You know, some people might respond better to that. It might give them a and I have done [00:45:30] that, too. I've I've written, um I know Charles Mackay's. It's either his great it's either his granddaughter or great granddaughter as a judge in San Francisco, and because Charles Mackay had a daughter who went to America and died in the twenties. But she married a man who became the head of the Harvard Medical School, and it's one of his descendants. That's a judge in San Francisco, and I tried hard to meet with her when I was in San Francisco, and she through an assist through, uh, the communications [00:46:00] person for the San Francisco court said she didn't want to meet with me, But, um, you know, I didn't think she really knew anything about the story. But, um, you know, wished me well in the book. But, um, because judges like here are very hard people to reach, uh, probably even harder in in America. Um, I think you have to, you know, sometimes, um, sometimes finding someone who knows someone can be, um, [00:46:30] it is. This is tricky sort of stuff to to, um, because you don't quite know how people's attitudes are gonna, uh what they'll be like. So, yeah, sometimes writing can be good. I think being being very upfront, um, is a good thing, you know, um, and again, just just thinking about would I be comfortable answering these sorts of questions, you know, or would my if someone was contacting our family about these sort of things? I mean, if you just make it basic like that and and behave, respectively, I mean, being [00:47:00] I sometimes find that, you know, being onto it and knowing what you're doing is is a really good thing, you know, being professional. And And I think that impresses people that if you're taking it seriously and not just, um, you know, doing as a prurient exercise, perhaps that that sort of thing. But just yeah, just those basic sort of things, you know, being it's it's different. It's it's a bit different to journalism because journalism is usually sort of thinking [00:47:30] about a a radio story or a newspaper story or something, you know? I mean, you might have different options, I suppose, for, um, for this sort of research, you know, you might be able to Well, even in journalism, you can do that too. You can sort of, you know, not necessarily attribute things to people. There's various. But the first thing you've got to get over is getting people to talk to you. Yeah, so, you know, I mean, I've I've emailed, I've emailed like academics overseas. [00:48:00] I've, um I've written to people in New Zealand. I've I've, um sometimes it's good to do that, and then you can follow that up with a phone call so that they kind of know a bit about what you're talking about. I mean, just depends. You just have to, um or sometimes I've tried to find people who knew someone I was trying to contact and gone gone through them. Did the daughter ever say why she wasn't interested in talking to you guys? No, but But what we got what surprised us is [00:48:30] that she didn't seem to be that fussed about the homosexuality. You know, it was more just generally him being made to look bad. You know, um, and I remember Prue said to her, Do you think he was set up? And that's because that's one of the aspects of the story that is a strong part of the story. But it's not very easy. It's not documented at all the you know who. How did Darcy? Chris will come to be blackmailing the mayor. And, um, and Prue said to her, Do you think he was set up? And she said, Of course he was, Um, which sort of surprised us we we sort [00:49:00] of sense that she wasn't so embarrassed about, um, the homosexual angle or anything. But it's just that, um, you know her her her father's reputation. She'd done an oral history, Um, for suffrage. Um, the anniversary in 1993 which is at the Turnbull. And the woman who did that told us about it. And she said, Oh, you know, imagine talking for five hours and not mentioning your father once. Um, it's not quite right that [00:49:30] there are a couple of, um, couple of references to him in there. Um, and it was useful, too, because it confirmed the pronunciation because she does say his name on the tape. Um, Prue and I went and had a listen to that interview, and we only listened to the bits that we thought were interesting. I've since gone back and had a listen to it because it is actually really interesting just to get a I've realised that the, you know, the family context, this family that the mayor married into were one of the top, um, wealthy, respected [00:50:00] families in in, um and I think that's a whole part of the story of Of how the story, um, why people didn't talk about it was because it was that one of those sort of families. And it's sort of about the way that has changed. I mean, it might be to do with the way I've approached this story. I mean, Bronwyn Daley talks about a thing called micro history where a small story can tell you a bigger story. But Jack Perkins from Radio New Zealand came along to the talk I was giving and he said to me he [00:50:30] thought maybe this story could work in a similar approach to the way he he told a story for a Labour Day programme about the, um, man who was hanged in America because he was a communist and a New Zealand guy was trying to find the ashes because the ashes had been sent all around the world. Um, and you know, this sort of little story that actually tells a bigger story. But when Jack came to the talk, I said, Oh, what do you think? Do you think it'll work? And he says, Oh, no, really, that's the story of New Zealand because it's a story about [00:51:00] we know the decline, the rise and fall of Whanganui. It's, um it's about homosexuality. It's about, you know, And it's even got international angles in it with, um, you know, Charles Mackey being killed in a riot in Germany and the sort of rise to power of the Nazi Party. So yeah, it's That's why it's become a bit, um, amorphous and hard to hard to pin down because it does have all these sort of, um elements to it. Have there been elements in your research where [00:51:30] you know, you found out information and then somebody says you cannot use that information? Well, I remember a Alistair Morrison telling me when as a journalist that you know, when someone tells you something off the record, one of the things you can do as a journalist is find that information from somewhere else because the it's quite an important thing to know. Well, I mean and and you know assuming that information is true is correct. You know, that's an option you've got is that you can then think, [00:52:00] Well, who else can tell me that? And you see, there's things like that you can do with this. I mean, you might be able to think, Well, is there anyone else who could tell me that? Or you could look at, um, ways of including that without, um revealing. Who told it to? I suppose I mean, um, I guess what you have to do in that situation is, um you have to be very you know, that's territory where you've got to be really careful that it's, you know, trying. And this is where verification is quite important. [00:52:30] But I think you perhaps want to try and, um, ask around that a bit more and and work out why. And, you know, would there be any circumstances that that would be OK to do? And they might say, Oh, well, as long as you not use my name or yeah, I mean and and and you know, the more you find out about it like the context of that information, it might give you ideas. I just because someone says that I don't think necessarily means that you don't have any options. I guess [00:53:00] going on from that is is not only blocks but actually getting permissions to use material. So, like, for instance, um, photographs and, um, A and writings. I mean, I know that there have been a number of examples in New Zealand about some writers that have been admitted from publication because their estates don't want them in publication. Do you have any examples that you could you could share that? That your things I'm aware of? You know, I know when Peter Wells and [00:53:30] and Rex Pilgrim did their book, um, it was there were various writers whose literary states wouldn't the the writings were under the control of the literary executives. And so, um, at that stage, the executives wouldn't give them permission to be appearing in a thing like that. And so I think literary literary, um, executives are in a tricky people's executives are in a in a tricky position. Um, and I think you find [00:54:00] that's why I keep saying things. Things change over time. I mean, since that book came out, all of those papers have become unrestricted and available. Um, you know, these people often knew the person who gave them the right to be their executor, and they're having to sort of interpret that person's wishes. And it's it is to do with the just the the way that the context, the context does change. The thing about these things is, you know, to be aware of them and really understand what they mean. [00:54:30] Um, so do you know, does this mean you can quote from it in a PowerPoint data show? A presentation? Does this mean you can, you know? What does it mean? Does it mean you can't publish it? You know, really, you've really got to understand what those restrictions mean, and you've got to not leave it to the last minute to, um you know, make sure you get those approvals if you need them, because it could seriously undermine your project. But at the same time, I think this might be becoming less of an issue. I mean, there are there are just general things that you've got to be careful about, [00:55:00] like, um, things in copyright and stuff that that, um that's really, really significant. And that doesn't change. Whereas I think things about gay stuff must be. I'm sure there are still problems, problematic areas, but I'm I think my sense is that it is getting a bit easier that we less less likely that that things just generally I think things the further away. I think you're just [00:55:30] gonna have a harder time of it. The closer you are, you know, if there are still living descendants, that sort of thing. Um, although I was at a talk recently with someone Oh, I was listening to Selena Hastings talking about his Somerset, Mo biography and she, you know, it was very clear that that the that the duty a biographer owes to a grandchild is is quite different to the duty they owe to a child, which is duty different to the duty you owe to a partner or spouse, which I thought was an interesting way of looking at it as well that there are degrees of [00:56:00] closeness in terms of the way the biographer has to should be should be working. But, um, the main thing about those restrictions is to, um, be aware of them and really understand them, you know? So ask the librarians or the curators what that means So that you don't drop yourself in it. Because if you do, um, breach those, then you might. You know, I always worry about having a hard time when I go back to that library or, you know, and need to access collections again, [00:56:30] or the next researcher after you, you know, because it can, um, it could cause problems for everyone else. It could make that collection become less successful. Um, you know, and and that's why at archives, things sort of keep changing because there was a controversy about, um, a box of David Long papers being released and it, you know, it had drawings by his daughter. But it also had stuff that, um, was to do with New Zealand's foreign relations with, um America, I think, [00:57:00] and anti nuclear stuff. And it was still sensitive. But that caused I think that caused a He had huge ramifications for access to material for everyone else. And that was probably more the, um, on the archive side. Actually, that one, but yeah. No. With those restrictions, you just need to really understand them and be aware of them. I'm wondering if you have any ideas about, um, how to protect queer history and how to protect histories that are being [00:57:30] made now so they don't get lost. Are there things that you can think of that we can do? Having Charles Mackay in the Dictionary of Biography and Darcy Cresswell and and having the the sexuality there as a as a topic kind of, Yeah, gave it a sort of a credibility. And it also meant that it was easy to find, you know, when Helen Shaw was trying to do her work in the sixties, you know, it was way harder, you know, nearly 30 [00:58:00] years, you know, 20 more than 20 years before decriminalisation. Um, you know, it's just important that it be there as, um subject headings in a catalogue. Like I said in the card files in, you know, the fact that I just can't find anything about Pride Day, But but again, I've, um, Phil Parkinson mentioned to me that that has the gay group newsletter. So I did have a I haven't managed to find it there [00:58:30] either, but, um, that was great to have that sort of resource. So, you know, it's I think you need stuff in both. You need to think about it in two ways you need. You know, you need the the li, uh, general libraries. The general cataloguing systems need to sort of recognise this. But also, you need your specialist repositories and catalogues and things as well, you know? So I've had a had a bit of a talk to the Lisbon and archives in Melbourne. Um, [00:59:00] because I've got this. I've been wondering how this story was covered in Australia, and I think you know, whether it's Australia's first homosexual reference as well, based on what's in trove, which is their equivalent to, um, papers past. But as the one of the curators for that archive said to me, he said, Well, you know, truth is not online, Um, but they've done an index of truth, which they've said they'll give me, um, an index to truth. But, um, they see New Zealand. Truth is online and papers passed, and that [00:59:30] makes a huge difference because that would cover things um, to do with sex and crime that other papers wouldn't. And that's been quite useful, actually. Um, for this, you know, because they recovered this story in a completely different way to everyone else. And it's also been good for getting a, um, yeah, for that context. I think other gay historians find truth quite helpful because it it would go where other places wouldn't other papers wouldn't. [01:00:00] So, do you think in the past the reason why things weren't keyw worded? Was that a some kind of censorship, or was it just because it just wasn't done? Or why do you think? I'm not sure. Yeah. I, I wonder, um I mean, the names, you know, even the terminology changes, doesn't it? You know, even, um queer. Um, you know, and I've interviewed, um when I've interviewed older gay people, [01:00:30] you know, I've used the word gay, and they say, Oh, you know, that didn't That doesn't mean anything. You know, we didn't use that word. They say, you know, so it's always, um the terminology is a slippery thing as well. It's It's not necessarily, um, clear when you when you should use that. You know what particular terms? Um, so I'm not sure. I I'm really not sure. I mean, um, it's probably a combination of, um, public attitudes. Um, [01:01:00] well, pre 1987 it would have been because it was illegal, wouldn't it? And then, yeah, and then it might be sort of a through a sort of a, um because I think it's different now. I think I think you you will find stuff under gay and lesbian and bisexual, transgender and and homosexual. Hm. I mean, lately, what I've been looking at is, um, stuff to do with the history of homosexuality, which is really interesting. [01:01:30] That and I mean, it may be completely irrelevant to what I'm doing, but but, you know, um but it's it's just interesting the debates that are going on in the history world about, um whether homosexuality is seen as something that's sort of innate, or whether it was something that was created by the medical and legal climate, which is a really interesting argument. And there's been some, um, critique. There's a guy called, um, Sir Jeffrey Weeks, who's done some really amazing [01:02:00] amazing history, and I think he comes from a sort of a sociological perspective. I think they call him the social constructive Constructivist approach that's been critiqued by later people who sort of challenged that. So, um, because if I'm trying to find out, you know, Is this the first homosexual in New Zealand? It's quite good to know to be aware of those debates. So that's why I've sort of, you know, come back around. And I'm now looking at a bit more secondary stuff and again, sort of looking at, you know, the references for there because I think, [01:02:30] given that that's the sort of, um, angle I'm looking at now with this project I, I found I need to have a bit of a feel for those sort of debates. And the word homosexual that was actually used by Charles Mackey's defence homosexual monomania was the way they talked about it. Yeah, so that that was what he'd been treated for in 1914. I mean, I don't know if that's how they would have, because that's six years earlier and that, you know, all the timing is quite significant. If [01:03:00] you think of the things like Freud's work and, um, the whole idea of homosexuality as a mental illness and sort of pathologize, I think it was thought of as a bit different, Um, in 1920 even earlier in 1914 and at the moment. What I think it was was to do with, um, hypnosis and, um, auto suggestion, uh, which was sort of grouped together as this thing called, um, suggestive therapeutics. But you see you then realise [01:03:30] you've got to understand how was the medical profession structured then and actually through some other work at the Ministry for Culture and Heritage? I interviewed someone whose father was the first medical specialist in in the Cargill in 19 in the 19 twenties, and he was an ophthalmologist, and he there was a lot of resistance from doctors who were, like, used to doing everything. And suddenly there were these specialists. And it makes you realise that it's so different to how it is now where we're used to having medical specialists. And it's also a period when people [01:04:00] who weren't qualified doctors had Well, in the case of Wanganui, he had quite a significant role. Now, the man who treated Charles Mackay for his homosexuality was, um, uh also called, um a Albert Godfrey, Mackie or Mackay. So same name? Not as far as I can tell, Related, But he was not a doctor, but he'd trained to. He wanted to be a doctor but couldn't afford to train as a doctor. So he he seemed to occupy this very strange space that, [01:04:30] you know, it doesn't I suppose you might call it like what we'd now call homoeopathy or something. But he when there was a flu epidemic in, he was in charge of one of the areas for the medical, um, treatment or, you know, looking after people in. So he and his descendants have said to me and all the doctors were his friends, and he had rooms and, um, street, which is the Harley Street of Wu. So you see, that's so different to how things would be now. And so when you say, Oh, Charles Mackay was treated, [01:05:00] um, for homosexuality. People look at you and sort of think you're gonna say it's like Alan Turing or electric shock therapy or hormone therapy or it's it's really nothing like that. And it's, um and it's and and in 1914, we know that this other guy, Albert Godfrey Mackey, was, um um, running public hypnosis shows, um, like Andrew Newton and putting people under and making them do funny things. And he was a ventriloquist as well but he was also at the same time, had a little practise [01:05:30] treating people for nervous disorders. And I think homosexuality was seen as a nervous disorder. I think lots of things were put down to your nerves then, because in the court case in 1920 the specialist said, relapses of homosexuality are generally caused by alcoholism and neuroth. The neuro was, um, nervous exhaustion and a lot of illnesses were put down to your to your nerves. And so when we talk about people having a nervous breakdown, we're really that's the last remnant [01:06:00] of that sort of language. ME is possibly a little bit like that. But now the things that they thought were to do with nerves, we classify differently like homosexuality, which we don't even really see as a disorder anymore. But at that at that stage, that was sort of how they saw it. Um, so things like, um, you know, stuttering, insomnia and impotence. All sorts of things were put down to nervous, nervous exhaustion. So, yeah, it's been interesting trying to figure that out, But you see [01:06:30] how it opens up more questions, you think, Oh, crikey. How how did GPS work? and with other specialists at that stage and all these other questions so it can go on forever. One thing that jumps out to me is that you've got so many strands in your head. How do you How How How do you not take your research? How do you do you have any tips for that? Well, one of the things I sort of do whenever I talk to historians is is, you know, ask them how they organise stuff, and traditionally, one of the ways they organise [01:07:00] it is by source, because often that's how you're having to quote it if you're gonna have to give your references. So I talked to one historian and she said, Well, you know, there's my box from the and there's my box from Turnbull. You know, when I'm working on a particular project and I've sort of sort of tried to, um um, follow that as well, but, um, and then I've grouped things by chronologies are helpful sometimes, you know, just thinking, Um, what part of the of this guy's life does it relate to? I mean, [01:07:30] I know historians who do things by chapter, so, um, sometimes they have a very detailed plan of the book they're going to do, and they just have a you know, they've got a chapter breakdown. And so when they go off to the Turnbull or the or whatever, they everything slots into that, that relevant chapter I haven't found that so easy. But I've tried doing things like, you know, um, grouping it by things that relate specifically to Charles. Mickey, I've sort of put in in date order. I mean, I've run into problems, [01:08:00] you know, where I how to how to organise newspaper sources? Because I if you're following that thing of, you know, where did I get this from? But if you've got newspapers from, you know, four different places in New Zealand, But really, what you want to know is, you know, where are my articles from 1920 covering the court case? Sometimes, you know, they can be a bit unwieldy, so I'm not necessarily a good, um, a good role model for that. But those are two ideas that you know, If you've got a very detailed plan for your book, you could do it by that Grip your research [01:08:30] that way, or or even if you do do that, you need to keep track of where you got it from, because that's where you're gonna have to be, um, attributing it for your references so that someone else can find the same thing. I'm wondering just in summary. Could you just reflect back on the last hour that we've been chatting and maybe just, um, do a quick bullet list of things that if you had to quickly tell somebody This is how, um the things that you need to look [01:09:00] out for in terms of research and queer history? Uh, what would they be? Yeah, well, I was just looking at some of the things I thought about before we did this. I mean, yeah, I think my key thing we've talked about is the thing of being aware of what's gone before, Be aware of the broader context all the time. So you might think you're just looking at a queer story, But you actually need to understand the history of the town you're talking about. You need to understand the history of, um, you know, sometimes you might need to know about the medical profession, you [01:09:30] know, be prepared for that. That sometimes, um, you might need to think a bit more broadly, um, than than you might have thought. It's really important to see people in in their own time and in context. Um, all sources can be ambiguous, you know? So you've got to have a sort of a healthy scepticism. I think about about things. Newspapers can be wrong. Um, it's not just people are sometimes critical of oral history interviews for being, um you know, um, unreliable. But, [01:10:00] you know, documents can be wrong. Um, newspapers can be wrong. So always be trying to, um, where you can cross check and and corroborate being as clear as you can about what you're trying to do, you know, is is really worthwhile. I mean, I think people who are doing this in an academic context are lucky because they've got a framework of supervisors, and, um, the whole proposal that they've got to do to do that, that I think helps you. But alternate. You know, if you're working with a publisher, that, um, will force you to do [01:10:30] that as well. Think about, um, you think about yourself as part of a continuum of research and and also as part of a community of researchers and so be aware of, um, other researchers who've worked in this area, other curators and the institutions where you're going to research, you know, academics, Um, so that, you know, you're not necessarily on your own get, You know, you need to really get up to speed with, um, what they call finding aids, you know, which is indexes to collections, and especially when you're doing primary research [01:11:00] databases and things. Um, as, uh, I guess it's a secondary source. Think about the It's, um they're sort of like I think once you've sort of looked at the obvious secondary sources. So, you know, I don't know, published works, biographies, textbooks and things. I reckon the next layer down is the thesis. Um, so is anyone, um, done anything on this? Now, these are indexed quite a way back now and then and then before that. Back to the twenties and thirties and things there [01:11:30] are some, um, print indexes. They're called the union index of these or something. Those are worth, um, and again, I would find that the earlier ones, of course, didn't have anything homosexual or gay in them. So you have to kind of, um, think a bit laterally. But in my case, you know, I was interested in in stuff from from, um and also another big thing about queer history is that, you know, absence can be as significant as a presence. Don't. It's not necessarily a problem if you go looking [01:12:00] for something and it's not there because that in itself might be quite telling because this is a story. This will often be a story about absence because it's about, um, parts of our history, where these are things that you know because of community mores or legal prohibitions you know, didn't get talked about. And so it it, you know, it's it's not a straightforward process. Um, you know, And I've said, you know, Liberians are your are your best friend. I mean, they are. They are really They're great curators, [01:12:30] um, always be, um yeah, and I mean, just those basic follow the basic principles of good professional practise and that that will get you a long way in terms of getting support. You know, there is. There are things like history awards that are offered by the Ministry for Culture and Heritage Creative New Zealand fund writing, um, projects. But it's also worth thinking of, um, you know, the area that you're in and and different areas have, um, trusts community trusts, energy trusts. Um, And then the last thing, um, [01:13:00] yeah, just be try and be methodical in your practise so that you leave a path that others can follow. Um, so you know, footnotes and references, that sort of stuff, which can be a bit of a pain, but it actually hugely important. Because it can also mean that people can, you know, understand the arguments you're putting up, challenge them perhaps, if they want to, you know, track back and find your your evidence for doing that, and then build on that in turn.
This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
Tags