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I, um, got a background as an accountant initially. But then I worked, um, worked as an accountant for about seven years, but also worked as a journalist after that. And then that really lead into the oral history sort of work I've done. I've worked in radio and did long form features, documentaries. So sort of did interviews that were sort of like oral history. And so I started meeting oral historians and things. Um, I ran an oral history project on the Vietnam War, [00:00:30] and, um, that was also linked in with a project of my own interviewing 10 Maori men who served in Vietnam now, as part of the big Vietnam Project, I did interview a couple of, um, soldiers who who were gay, Um, who served in Vietnam. Um, terms of specifically queer gay things. I you know, I've done some research interviews for sort of gay history projects I've been working on, but, um, sort [00:01:00] of got, you know, sort of general oral history experience, and I've done the odd, um, sort of, um, biographical interview of of people. So why oral history? What is the benefit of doing oral history? Um, Judith Fife, who's sort of trained a lot of people and has mentored a lot of people, talks about the orality of the voice, and, um, it's a phrase that's really stuck with me. It's It's I think you do this sort of work because you like listening to the [00:01:30] voice. And I know people say to me, Oh, why don't you take a video recorder? You know, and there is something about seeing faces and things, but But I think once you get hooked by this idea of the voice, the orality of the voice, then you you kind of are hooked, and it's perhaps because of my radio background. I have done a little bit of television work, but I didn't find that came naturally to me. Um, and when I met some people at the Imperial War Museum, they sort of talked about the difference between video and sound. You know, if you listen to the [00:02:00] woman talking about the war, what it was like being a small child in the war, then you're sort of there with her and she's a small child. But if you see the video, then she's a woman in her eighties, and I think That's part of what the difference is. It's it's It's about why people like, um being involved with radio, they talk about sound pictures. Something similar is going on with oral history. It's also the chance to, um, I'm interested in accents and and language how language changes. So it's great for that because that's what you're focusing on. You're focusing on the the content [00:02:30] of the voice, and it makes you focus on things like, um, pauses, silence and yeah, and And the way, the way people say things. So So that's that's That's for me what's sort of attractive about this and and and it's a historical source, too. And I think it's exciting the way it's kind of much more taken much more seriously as a credible source of, um, of information. [00:03:00] So I mean that and I don't read. I think it's a it's a It's a form of history that copes well with ambiguity and and the way we all construct our stories. I think it it's hard to explain, but I think it's it's it can cope with that quite well. And it's not like documents are neutral, unbiased, completely reliable all the time. sources, either. So how do you deal with, um, I suppose personal truths [00:03:30] or or how people perceive events. Well, there are kind of basic sort of historical things you can do. I mean, um, you know, good. Good research, Um, techniques, I suppose. Like, do as much research as you can about whatever it is you're asking people about, um, and and then you've got the chance to sort of cross check and corroborate. Um, but it's not your role to point out. Oh, I think that's wrong. I. I think it's about it's your job as an oral historian [00:04:00] to ask, um, about the context. So if you do strike something that seems a bit odd, you know it it's I think it's OK to say So where did you hear that? And, um, and you know who else told you that or or has that been recorded or, you know, without being rude? Um, you know, there's all those basic sort of ethical principles, like, um, ask yourself if you'd be comfortable answering something, um, [00:04:30] that you're asking someone and that applies in any oral history interview. So those sort of good practises, But But I think It's about, um, gathering that context because another thing that Judith Fife says is that these interviews are for people. They're as much for people in 100 years as they are for the for us now. I think perhaps because of digital technology and things and the way interviews are so much more easily disseminated and available now, there's this pressure to sort of understand it all. But we need to keep reminding ourselves that we don't use [00:05:00] tapes anymore, and it's it's a lot easier to get this material out there, but we, we we won't understand it. And that's part of actually I mean inconsistencies and and and errors might become apparent 50 years down the track as much as 50 days down the track. So you just have to try and do as good a job as you can through research and and the techniques of interviewing at the time you're at now. But I but I think generally [00:05:30] it copes pretty well with that sort of ambiguity and the fact that we are all constructing our own narratives and I guess acknowledging in the oral history where you know information from where when somebody is telling you something that they actually, I identify if it's like a first hand account or they read it in a newspaper or they were told by their mother, Yeah, yeah, I think it's good to, um, to ask about those sources. I mean, another thing that that people have told me along the way is [00:06:00] it's not really There's not really much point in an oral history getting someone to cover some things that are already published. So that's sort of related to that, too, That that what we I think what it's what it's good at is capturing personal experience. Um, so that's something worth bearing in mind as well. Um, sometimes people might, you know, That's why you know, someone reading from a script or reading from a history, you know? Well, I mean, I wouldn't say that you never [00:06:30] want to do that, but But generally, that's not the sort of thing you're looking for in an oral history. You're looking for things that that really can't be captured any other way. What did it? What did it feel like? What did it sound like? What did it look like? That sort of personal experience and that sits alongside other archival sources and things and secondary sources, and it adds to the richness of the history. So is there much training available in New Zealand for oral historians? Well, [00:07:00] the the basic, you know, the the basic, the the most common. I mean, the main source of training is in oral history in New Zealand is the, um, courses run by what used to be called the Oral History Centre at the Alexander Turnbull Library. But it's just that the Alexander Turnbull Library really the outreach part. Those are offered in Wellington. Um, there is training, uh, offer being offered in Auckland. I mean, and things sort of emerge from time to time. I mean, there might be a little bit of training happening [00:07:30] in the universities, but those are the main sort of courses that I know of. Um, it's worth looking at the website for the Oral History Association in New Zealand. No hands just to because they try and maintain, um, sort of, uh, lists of resources and stuff, which can help people if they're, um, planning in our history or wanting to do training. And if you were gonna ask me about quest specific resources. I don't know. Um, there probably are things overseas, and And it would be worth [00:08:00] looking at that, because overseas, there are a bigger sort of queer history. Um uh, areas of work. So I would sort of look at things like some of the major collections, museums, um, universities. There are things here like, um Chris Brickle, who's a, um I mean, what I would think of here is kind of, you know, who are the practitioners who who are doing queer history and Chris Brickle, Um, which is, um BR IC KE Double L is a [00:08:30] He's in the, uh, uh, gender studies. He's a sociologist in the gender studies department at the University of Otago. He's done a lot of queer history. He's done oral histories and he's written articles, um, about queer history. Um, like he's done one on archival sources. So it's quite useful. Um, they're all sort of things that probably people should be aware of if they are thinking about doing queer history. I think because that's really some of the most significant recent scholarship. But he's not the only one. There are [00:09:00] other other people. He's one of the main ones, though, but, um, And then through that, you probably could find some other references and resources. But But I know you know his work. His work uses oral history, which is interesting as well. But but also, just depending on what your topic is you you should sort of be aware, Be familiar with the scholarship. Um, before you launch out and and go and interview someone, a group or a topic. So with the topics that you have done, have you, [00:09:30] um, chosen topics yourself or have the things that you've been involved in? Have they been like larger projects that you've kind of slotted into, um, in terms of queer queer stuff? Um, I guess it's that that Vietnam one was that just emerged as part of a bigger project. That's That's a project with hundreds of interviews with Vietnam veterans done by a team of interviewers around the country. Um, and I guess it was because of being queer that I got asked to help with [00:10:00] those, and I was really keen. Keen to help with those. Um, I don't know that I've really initiated my I've written bits and pieces about queer history, but I don't know that I've actually initiated my own projects at this stage, but, you know, even if it's a topic, one of the things you get taught in the training is that whether you're doing, I mean, oral history interviews are generally either a life history or a topic based interview. But even topic based ones should have life history. And that's something [00:10:30] I agree with, Um, and it applies to queer topics just like anything else. So why is that? It just means that the interview is more useful, Um, longer term. So even if you're asking about, um, the Spartacus Club in in the seventies, you you should ask people, you know, where they grew up a bit about their background. Um, you know who their who? Their family, where their family come from. Um, just basic things like, you know, politics, religion [00:11:00] just I mean, as far as you want to go. But but I think it's good to sort of lay a bit of groundwork, because often those, um, the answers to those questions can help you in ways quite surprising ways, actually. Well, you know, for queer topics, having an idea of someone's religious background may well be helpful. And even if there's no religion, that's interesting as well in, um, in New Zealand, depending on the sort of generation that the person is, it would be less unusual now [00:11:30] if you're talking to a young person. But you know, someone who was who was elderly to If they said that, that would be sort of interesting because that would be, um, unusual in that generation. So, yeah, I'm a firm, believe. And I've learned that from working, um, or watching how other oral historians more experienced than me work. Yeah, but I think that's just there are There are things. It's a bit like journalism, you know, there's there's just good practises that that that whatever your topic you should be thinking about, [00:12:00] do you think that the interviewer influences the interview? I'm thinking that, you know, do you have a, um, a gay man interviewing a gay man? And would that be different from, say, a woman interviewing a gay man? What you want? Yes. Yes, the interviewer does, but what you want is a good interviewer. And there's no guarantee that just because you're a gay man that you will be a good interviewer to interview another gay man. What interviews depend on is rapport. I think, [00:12:30] um, you have You have to establish a relationship, and the quality of that relationship will determine how the interview goes. And and I think skilled interviewers just do what they can to do that, and part of it I've learned, is that you just have to accept that that who you are and your background and how you're perceived is going to influence the relationship. So that means, um and I think you just have to accept [00:13:00] that and go with it. You don't have to, you know, don't try and make yourself into something you're not. And and it's just about being upfront with people as well. So in the Vietnam interviews, the fact that I was too young to have protested that I was part Maori and that I was a man and perhaps to a lesser extent that I was gay would have affected the the dynamics of the interviews, but had colleagues who were younger than me and we're women and and and I know just just it was This is anecdotal, [00:13:30] but just talking it we we sort of reflected and thought that, you know, our backgrounds and who we were really was affecting the dynamics and and that sort of environment that's you know, when you're dealing with former military people, you're dealing with a lot of men. Um, but I would say gay gay things. And actually, I know this from experience. Just because you're gay doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna You're gonna be the right person. And if you're another gay person, um, oral history is dominated in New Zealand by older middle class, middle aged women. But you know who do a damn good [00:14:00] job? Um, because they're good interviewers, and it's basic things like being able to listen. Being a good listener is really one of the biggest things. And if you haven't got that, then no matter who you are, you're gonna struggle and, um, and people will struggle to, to feel comfortable with you and talk to you. So no, I wouldn't. But at the same time, if if you well, perhaps it's analogous to Maori. You know the world. Just because you're a Maori doesn't mean you will be the right person to interview [00:14:30] another Maori person. But there is probably a a likelihood that you may understand some of the language and things, and you could say the same thing for for gay people as well. But, you know, I found, um there are big generational differences. Uh, between I mean gaming. So I would I would think there are other things that are more important, but I really do agree that that your background influences the interview, but that's not a bad thing. I think it's just about being conscious of it that that's going on. [00:15:00] And I guess also the kind of question lines that you develop and the way that you even think. Yeah, well, research research is really important. I think, um, I maybe do too much of that sometimes, or I get a bit bogged down in it because I, I do enjoy that part of it. Um, you have to think laterally about researching for queer things, because the the research that you need may not necessarily be in obvious places. And that's why places like LA are [00:15:30] really important. So we're lucky that that's there. Um, so certainly you should always think of places like that. Um, you know, any specific, like I mentioned Chris Prickles sort of scholarship journal articles. Whatever you can that relates to the top and do as much as you can. Will will really, really help. Um, in the in the interview that you do. I don't I don't so much plot out my questions. Uh, I sort of have them as a checklist, Really. But But I do think through how am I going to [00:16:00] approach this? And the classic way you do it in our history is chronological. So where were you born? You know, tell me about your family background. You sort of move through it. Um, but there there are loads of other ways of, um, constructing it depends what? You're what you're doing. Uh, you know what the what? The what the project plan is. But, um, I think, yeah, it's If that's clear, then that kind of guides you. But you do. You do need to. It's a structured conversation, and and you don't have unlimited time. And [00:16:30] maybe because I've got a journalism background that you kind of think of, You know, that trains you in the news. Journalism trains you in that pyramid of news. So what's most important that should be in the first line. It's a bit like that with an interview thinking, Well, if I only had an hour, what would I What would I really need to talk about? What's really important to to cover. And also we might talk about this more. You know, in people's energy, your energy, their energy, it's not. It's finite. So that's another reason why you should prioritise. So it's it's It's [00:17:00] a lot of its judgement, actually about, you know, when is it appropriate to? Sometimes people might go off on a discursive thing that may or may not be relevant, but you've sort of got to bring it in. I think it's You've always got to have a sense of the sort of the the thread of the conversation and where you're taking someone, which is hard because it's exploratory because you're doing the interview because you want to know stuff. But but I think you do have to have a bit of a plan so that they feel like you're in control, not [00:17:30] not controlling, but but kind of giving them a bit of, um, guidance because it's a bit, um, it's a bit scary, really. for people to be interviewed. I. I imagine that that for most people, they would never have done a a four or five hour interview about themselves before or about a topic. I mean that there is quite a lot of skill, and I'm not saying I'm in great shakes. It's I still feel like a beginner. But there is a There is a huge amount of skill in doing that. And And when you listen to people [00:18:00] who are really good interviewers doing it, um, yeah, and part of that is that's how you manage to do that and and at the end of it, you know, end up, end up covering a good range of a good range of things. Now, even in the time that we've been talking, um, your chair has been squeaking. I've been noticing it because it's quite a quiet environment in here, and I'm wondering when you're on location or even choosing locations for an oral history. Have you any thoughts about you know, what are the best things to look for? One [00:18:30] of the principles that I've been told and I really agree with is that you know, it's important to make um, to do these interviews in a way where you make the people being interviewed feel comfortable. So that often means, um, you might want to do the interview in their home. Um, it may not mean that sometimes people don't want that. You just have to be guided guided by them. What you want is technically sound of the quality that you want If it's in someone's home, you know, you you have to, [00:19:00] um, you you may or may not be able to control things that are going on. It's good practise in our history to do a preinterview meeting, So that's a preliminary meeting a few days before the interview, and that's where you talk about the recording agreement form. You talk about the project that you're doing? Uh, it might be the first time you've ever met the person. You might just have talked to them on the phone or written to them. It's a chance to ask about letters Uh, di, uh, photos and, um, so that they can be thinking about that or tracking them down then or [00:19:30] before you next meet, um, and filling in a biographical information form, which is much easier to fill out when you're not on tape, and and they might have to go and look at a family history to work out dates and things. And as part of that, you can sort of have a look around and and work out where you might suggest that an interview be done. Um, it might be, you know, in their armchair. And so if you've got lapel mics, technically, that can be easier to manage that, Um, but if but I've been known to, um, turn fridges [00:20:00] off, take clocks out of rooms, you know, you've got to be polite and and just see if you can see you either can say, Well, you know, um, we could move. Or can we do something to that sound? If you turn a fridge off, remember to turn it back on. Um, that's it. It's awful driving away and then suddenly remembering that someone's freezer might be still turned off. Um, because this the modern gear we're using is so sophisticated and and tummy rumbles come out now. So you know, it's about wanting people [00:20:30] to sound good, and you can, you know, pop your headphones on them and show them uh, because I think people are surprised if they haven't used a digital recorder, how good the sound quality is. But, um, and that's why you should be monitoring your sound. I know oral historians who monitor the sound the whole interview. I don't I just do some little tests every now and again. Put the headphones on and just check, and it's amazing what you're hearing. If you're in an office building, you'll probably have air conditioning. Um, which is can be really loud. Um, that's [00:21:00] not usually a problem. You know, cicadas. If it's in summer. I mean, you don't need to be ridiculous about it. I mean, it's it's atmosphere. It's telling you where the interview's happening. But if it's going to distract the, um, listener, then it's bad and that that really does need to be, um, sorted out. But it's just about, um, again part of your technical skills and confidence. And, you know, I learned that at radio. Is that the more comfortable you are with your gear, the better the interview will be because [00:21:30] it's it'll make the person feel comfortable. And, oh, this person knows what they're doing. And it also allows you to focus on the content, which is the most important thing. You don't want to be worrying about your gear, so you've got to whatever equipment you're using. If you if it's your own or you're renting it or buying it, borrowing it, you've really got to know it backwards. And you will always do a better interview if you do that. So there's all these sort of basic bread and butter kind of things that help you. Um, whatever your topic, but certainly for [00:22:00] queer queer history you mentioned before about photographs and why a photograph is so important. It's just a sort of a habit that, um, the repositories, like the Alexander Turnbull Library, have sort of got us into, um, to as part of documenting the interview, uh, you might with the person's permission, you know, take a photo of them. Um, now and with digital cameras, that's again so easy now and then, um, if you're doing an interview about the Vietnam War, well, it was nice to ask a person. Well, [00:22:30] have you got a photo of yourself in the sixties or the seventies when you were in Vietnam? Um, and then that is scanned. And then, um, you you send that to the Include that with the interview as part of the material that you deposit. Um, that's sort of the extent of it. Really? I haven't, uh I've just sort of followed that. That practise. Uh, but again, that's because I was sort of doing war war interviews and they sort of, um that's the sort of model that the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and and Turnbull [00:23:00] have sort of followed. But I think it's a nice a nice thing to do. And perhaps it's kind of, you know, making making up for that, Not having the the video image of the person I think it is, it is good, and they're actually very useful if you're thinking about again with the person's permission, um, using, um, the excerpts of an interview in a presentation or an exhibition or something. And again, that's that's always worth thinking through, I suppose, um, I, I guess [00:23:30] I mean often the most important thing about the oral history is is it for its own sake? But I guess you have to always acknowledge that there is the potential that it could go on to the Internet. It could be used in an exhibition. It could be used, Um, you know, in a book. Um, and not just by you. Which is why the whole recording agreement form is really, really important to document the wishes of the interviewee, I guess one of the things with photographs as well is that they can be, uh, memory triggers, Yes. And And [00:24:00] I guess, diaries and letters. And that photos, photos more. So in my experience. And that was again, another little technique that we used in the Vietnam Project was, um you know, I, uh, Chris Pugsley told me this, actually, when I went to see him at Sandhurst military college because he'd done a lot of oral histories with military people and he said, you know, get a get a photo of a section, get a photo of a a platoon, get a photo of, um, the one above that, uh, you know, a company, Um, [00:24:30] And just say, you know who were the hard case guys. You know who was. And it was a great piece of advice, actually. So, you know, you're doing a, uh, oral history project about the la LA in the eighties. Find a photo? Yeah. Use photos, photos and newsletters or something as triggers. What's you know, What was that event and what's happening there? You know, I think they're they're worth, um, worth bearing in mind. Yeah, as as little triggers. And it's all part [00:25:00] of your research. When you do the preinterview, you have to remember to, um, stop people launching into their stories and, um, really politely. But, um and because another one of the things that the oral historians say to you, you know, the stories are never as good the second time, because you and if you and I've learned this from experience too, you know, you you hear the story, and then the next day you say and and you and tell me that story about and oh, I've told you that or or it's never as good. So, um, these little [00:25:30] tips to to, you know, avoid having to learn these lessons. But But it it, um So you really just have to restrict that preliminary meeting to, you know, the bio form the agreement form. Um, and that's why the meeting is not a long meeting. Uh, and that's, you know it's not going to take this long. And and that's why you know, just explaining what the interview will involve. Generally, what you're going to talk about, Um, so that they feel comfortable and don't feel like you're throwing anything, Sort of, um, that they're not prepared for. I don't give people [00:26:00] questions. That's kind of a habit I've got from journalism. I've I've never done that. I might give people sort of, you know, in an email that might be, um, broad topic headings, areas. And that's generally what I'll do because I don't actually. Well, I do sort of write the questions out, but they're more checklist because I think if you're immersed in your research, you really you just go through it, really. And then you might have these as a checklist or what haven't I asked about that sort of thing? And [00:26:30] if you're, um yeah, and as part of your research, you've got to be alert to, um, the terminology differences, and that's one of the That would be one of the things that you've really got to, um, be alert to. I think for queer history is the terminology, because it's changing all the time, you know, because gay in 2011, 2012 means something very different to what it did when I was growing up. Um, because I would say I [00:27:00] was I was using that phrase when I was interviewing a veteran, and he just said to me that that because when we were talking about the past and he said that didn't mean anything to me. He knew what I was talking about. But he said, we we use the word homosexual and so it was great that he told me, but I should have sort of thought of that. But that's, um But it's also worth checking or, you know of other words. You know, um and, [00:27:30] you know, and in interviewing there are open and closed questions and open questions are generally really good to use in in our history. But there will be times when you you need to ask a closed question, and you just have to judge what's appropriate. But an open question might be, you know, what were the what were the other words that people used when you were growing up? You know, sissy, pansy, faggot, all that stuff. But did you ever and then a closed question might be. But did you ever hear a shirt lifter or something? There might be a particular word, you know, that you [00:28:00] that they haven't mentioned. So sometimes you need to check, you know, So a closed question would kind of a yes, no answer. Did you ever hear that word being used? Um, so you It's not that you ever just use one or the other in our history. You need to use both, But you need to be aware of what they both do. And another general thing that I think is really important to bear in mind is is the danger with closed question? Well, it's not really a closed question. It's more of a leading question, a loaded [00:28:30] question that must have been terrible for you. If they tell you something and if it wasn't terrible, well, then they're really going to feel shy about saying it wasn't terrible. If you've said that. So how How was that for you, or or what effect did that have on you? You've got to try and be neutral because you can really see that's more important to be aware of than you know as a gay man, the best person to be another gay man. I think it's knowing these things that are going on. It's, um it's [00:29:00] quite a It takes a lot of mental energy doing these sorts of interviews because you have to think like that, you know, be be very conscious of, um, and asking some of these other questions to unpack things that that perhaps might be behind, um, ambiguity or or things that might be wrong, but again, trying to unpack some of the context. And so you, you, you It's like a sort of a toolkit. And you're having to be grabbing all of these sort of techniques in a limited space of time with finite [00:29:30] stores of energy. So you see, it's quite a mental sprint in some ways. So so in an interview situation, how long would you record for? Yeah, we used to talk about this at the ministry. You know, how long is an interview? Well, an interview is as long as it needs to be, and but you're actually bounded by the energy of the person you're interviewing and your energy because and you need to you know, you need to look after yourself when you go and do you need to have breakfast? You need to Don't try not to be tired, because it's a real, [00:30:00] um, mental marathon. Really, it is a sprint, but it's also a marathon as well. So you you have to be sensitive to to where the person's at and, um, check, you know, check in with them. Um, sometimes I find I need breaks more than they do. Sometimes, you know, you you can't generalise. Sometimes older people will be fine, but, um, you can't really go. I mean, what have I done? I mean, seven. I mean, that's ridiculous. I think I did do seven [00:30:30] in one day. But, you know, you usually be stopping for lunch and things, and you might might carry on it. If the circumstances say you're in the same town as someone you want to talk to, you might be able to go back. What one oral historian said to me was that, um the risk, the thing you've got to watch out for in that is repetition. So you might find that the same parts of the stories, um, come up again and that which would be understandable. Um, so you've really got to and that you've [00:31:00] got to know what you're covered the first time. I. I haven't really done too many of those interviews because I've often been travelling, and that's been my one chance. So to be sort of, you know, arrive in the morning like a start. Do what we can do. Stop for lunch. Um, keep going. Stop for a morning afternoon tea and then, you know, So you're looking at sort of 55 hours, maybe. And, um and that's pretty good going, you know? So how long would you record before you took a break? Um, [00:31:30] I use a sound device recorder, which is a digital recorder, and that has various settings. So that you can I think I used to have it set so that you could break. Um, it it just made a break so that you didn't end up with files that were too big, but I I found that a pain because, um, you end up with these odd breaks so which aren't necessarily meaningful. So now what I try and do is try and sort of discipline myself to sort of pause if around around about an hour [00:32:00] because that's quite a lot of, um, digital material. If you're recording at the high Standard that you should be for archival purposes, Um, so sometimes I just say, and you you sort of judge it if you're sort of at the end of a If the person is at the end of an explanation and you sort of, you know, know where you're at in your question lines, perhaps to say, Oh, look, let's just take a pause now. And it's also quite good to do that and stop so that you're not cutting in on their what they're saying. And it's all about this being [00:32:30] comfortable and being in control so that you're not, um and then just, you know, say right, you know, go to the toilet, have a have a cup of tea or or are you right to go right back on? You know, um, because I just think it can be a bit hard to handle, uh, the audio and and I mean but But now you see, in the old days with tapes, people were stopping every 30 or 45 minutes. I suppose it was typically 30. I think with the tape. So, you know, oral historians [00:33:00] who are used to that they probably would be used to the half hour. So you were at least, you know, flipping the tape over. I think an hour is reasonable to sort of pause, um, for both of you, just to just check you both how you're both going and things. So, in the oral histories for the Vietnam vets, how did the kind of gay content come out in your interviews? Was it a big part or they They both knew that that was why we were interested in talking to them. So So that was good. Um, to [00:33:30] be honest, I find asking people about sex quite difficult. Um, that's and and really, you know, things like that. They're tricky things to ask about, because you just don't quite know how people are going to react. Um, I mean, generally, I think people historically know that things like VD are are an issue with soldiers. But, you know, I did have, um, not in these gay interviews, but other cases [00:34:00] where, um, you know, some people did react badly because of it reflecting badly on the on the soldiers uh, that was a woman, actually who who worked with the soldiers But I. I mean, I heard recently about a ward in a military hospital, and it must have been in Vietnam where where the men were anonymous, they were anonymized. So you sort of, you know, you got to remember there's a different, different sort of sort of context. But [00:34:30] in terms of those gay interviews, how did it sort of emerge? Well, well, that's why life history is important, because you can then get a sense of, you know, people's growing up, going to school, getting a job, eventually finding their way into the military also, you know, when did you come out as part of that? So you've you've got you've got that sort of base understanding of, um, how they saw themselves sexually, um, quite apart from their military sort of career or the topic that you're [00:35:00] you're also so but so I'd expect it to sort of emerge there. You know, they may have been married or, you know, but then it would also emerge in the, um and you have to. That's why I think you're always thinking about life, history and and topics. Um, it's interesting because I remember hearing an oral history, not part of your project. But where the oral historian asked, uh, did you ever marry? And the chap said no. And then she just moved on, [00:35:30] and it was almost like she didn't want to go down that path. Yeah, it's tricky. It's tricky because I suppose you're you might be worried about prying. I'm just trying to think. What would I say then? Uh, I guess I might come at it, try and come at it a bit laterally. Like what? Well, you know So too much else on again. It's that thing of, you know, how would I feel about being asked about or or maybe [00:36:00] even asking the question. Was that unusual in your generation or or or the question being, um, did did you have any significant partners in your life rather than saying That's right, This is a heterosexual marriage type thing. That's right, relationships, because it might have been a straight person who just chose not to marry. Yeah, I think I think you should, um, you should sort of probe that a wee bit respectfully, Um, but it's It's [00:36:30] tricky. They're tricky things to ask about because And that's why I said, rapport is really important because the better a rapport you have. And the more the person trusts you, the the the more confident you can be about going in those places, and you, you might get to places where people just don't want to go. So that's fine. And also, one of the big principles in all of this is, Is you never? No one's research is more important than someone's well-being and health. So you know, [00:37:00] we never we never want to interview, uh, to ask things that will make people feel, you know, hurt people or bring up things. And that's that's that will very much be a AAA risk with these. You know, we knew with the Vietnam interviews that, you know, there might be trauma associated with that and and you could well strike that with queer interviews as well. Because for some people, that may be, you know, really difficult asking them about this sort of top. These sort of topics might, um, [00:37:30] reconnect them with really difficult bits of their past. Or maybe not. You just don't know, but you just need to be prepared, and in fact, it can happen in any interview. You know, um, where people might, you know, burst into tears or or yeah, you. And it's often you can't say this question will always be a problem. But in terms of the the six stuff, uh, yeah, it's it's interesting. And one [00:38:00] of the interviews I did for Vietnam, you know, um, one of the soldiers talked about a particular incident. Where, where? Um, So this is before the soldier had really had relationships with men, I think. But, um, in New Zealand and one of the one of the camps where people were training before they went to Vietnam, you know, there was a public sort of ceremony where two men who'd been sort of found together doing [00:38:30] something or other had been, um, where ceremonially had their uniform their, you know, rank and things taken off their uniforms and were loaded into a truck and sent away. Now that that was a really powerful um, for the person I spoke to, it was a really powerful, um, deterrent. And, um and I he gave me enough information actually to try and trace that through. And I've never. I haven't done that. But But it would be interesting to do that to see if there was corresponding discipline reports and things, [00:39:00] because that was very, um, the fact that it was done so publicly. Um, because when I did ask people about this and and this is in, you know, in that generation of the army, some people said, Oh, no, you know, not at all. But But even this person actually had no idea till later that other men were having sex with men. Um, until much later. And in fact, he said it was a bit of a, you know, bit of a pain to not have known that then. [00:39:30] And I think it was different if you were having sex with someone from another country or another army than having sex with someone in the In your own army. I guess that I think that was that was different as well. But this this incident was very powerful. Um, and I and I think that's hugely significant. So that was that came out because the person I interviewed knew that was why we were interested in talking to him and and he was, and I would guess he was comfortable [00:40:00] talking about it because I'm gay. Uh, but II I wouldn't have I wouldn't have had, you know, I. I still think it's about being open and honest about why it is you're approaching. It wasn't like we sprung this on people, but what I would sort of try and do is in the other interviews, I guess I didn't always do this, but I But I did try and cover it. You know, um, so, you know, [00:40:30] going out to the prostitutes, the bars and the steam rooms and stuff, But But along with that, you know, were people having sex with each other. But it's but it's tricky. That event kind of unpacking it. Is it really important, Say, in an oral history where you want to try and take away the ambiguity so that you actually do have something in 100 years time where somebody can go. Ah, that was the event. That's the person. Well, I think that's the skill of you [00:41:00] talking about that incident. That public incident. Yeah. And I think you have to really think on your feet and think, you know, ask everything you can about that. And especially if you're what you're gonna try and provide a basis for someone to put this alongside some other historical sources, like newspaper reports or archival records. More likely. Um, So when was this, Um who do you remember being there? What happened? Um, you [00:41:30] know, did you see it or did you hear about this? And and, um, you know what? What? What do you really remember? You know why? Why have you remembered that all? And what effect did that have on you? I mean, just really, um, that's a key. That's a key incident that you've really got to, um, probe and and and try and come at it from different things. Different questions will will work differently because all of us, you know, [00:42:00] someone at work asked me about reminded me of me visiting the library to ask about something and a couple. It was only five years ago, and I couldn't remember it. But when she prompt prompted me, I could. But memory is a funny thing. And, um, I think part of the again part of this little tool kit is to ask the different questions and and different things will trigger. And that's why the photos are good, because we will respond differently to different things and and different things might sort of prompt different responses. [00:42:30] But that's yeah, that's that's a notable. That was a That was a notable thing. But that's, um if you're doing sort of queer history, those things you know should set off an alarm bell for you to to take notice of. And it's it's actually something you can come back to, too, you know, because you might think about that and think, Oh, I should have asked, You know, because you'll be processing it, too. So there's always the chance to to come back. So are you taking notes as you interview? I do. [00:43:00] I tend to. I sort of have this outline and I they'll say things often and I and I'll just make a note to stop myself, Um, forgetting it. It's a it's a sort of a in radio. You you you sort of learn to, you know, ask a question and have the next question in your head. Really? And that probably doesn't hurt in oral history either. But, um yeah, in both those types of interviews, you you're writing stuff down that, you know, they'll be saying something that you want. You you want [00:43:30] to let them finish what they're saying? But there's something that they've reminded you of that you need to follow up or they've mentioned a name. Who Who's that you just mentioned, you know, or or a word? All sorts of things. Yeah. So you're constantly kind of building what they say into the, um the the plan, the question lines and things. Before we started this interview, I actually sent you a question line. Yes, you do. And you have noted on it, and I'm just wondering, [00:44:00] are there things that we haven't talked about that you would like to cover? Well, you you you asked about verbally identifying your files. This is something that you get trained to do. So you should, as you did, ID, um, where you are, the date and time and things. Get the person to introduce himself or say their name on the tape. Um, some recorders have the facility to label to create the names, which is handy. So I do that on my recorder, which lets me do it so I always have a system [00:44:30] for the the person's name. In fact, it has got a limited number of characters, so you know it'll be G. What can it might not get to S, you know, but But at least that's enough for me, and it'll just be 1234567 So that's a godsend. It means, you know, um, you know, you know what that project was, But you also should do the I DS on that if you're interviewing groups which I don't have a lot of experience doing classical oral history is, um, is is is one on one. But, you know, particularly for, [00:45:00] uh, Maori say some ethnic, you know, it might be ethnic cultural reasons why you might interview people together that could well happen with, um, queer interviews you might have, um, you might be interviewing a couple. I haven't done that so much, But what I would do is, I think, in that it's really important to get people to introduce themselves, and especially if you had a big group, which again would be sort of unusual in our history. But But you might have that, because if you're going to be trans or you or someone's going to be transcribing this or [00:45:30] or abstracting it, Um, it's much easier for them if they can have a way of tuning in. Oh, that's Frank. OK, that's Joe Bloggs. That's especially with a bunch of men, say, or a bunch of women. To be able to differentiate the voices would be quite important as part of your training. It's good to know about abstracting, which is a, um, it's a guide for researchers, and it's a, um, time code summary of the interview that pulls out, um, details like names of gay clubs, names [00:46:00] of people, names of places, you know, any sort of, um, details, facts that a researcher might be interested in, and you sort of group things by topic. Childhood at 10 Minutes 30 discusses school, school. You know all that stuff, and, um, it's a summary. It's not a transcript. A trans in New Zealand, we tend to not do transcripts of whole interviews because they become unwieldy really quickly and and and you can't really see your way through an interview. And also, [00:46:30] um, when you transcribe your editing, so do I put in the paws. Do I put in the arm. You you're making decisions about how to represent that speech on the page. You sort of are with an abstract as well, I suppose. But But abstracts, I think, are a bit easier to. You're not making such a difficult judgement. Call about about editing the the because whenever you transcribe on the page, it's an approximation. Whereas the whole principle of an abstract is to get you back to the recording, it's to make the researcher listen [00:47:00] to the recording so you're not putting it all down, Um, and so often, when you give people an abstract to check, they go. You've missed this. This things left out. But you have to explain to them that it's just a summary, and it's just to help the, um, the interview. And typically what you're asking them to check for is, um, spellings of names and stuff. And they'll be often things people mention that are a bit unclear to you that you should clarify during the interview. But if you didn't, that's the time to do it. It's good practise to, um, get people to spell out odd, uh, unfamiliar names so that the abstractor, [00:47:30] if it's not you can can, um or I mean, you may not know yourself. Um, just little sort of little techniques like that. Um, I think it's really good to have a clear sense of your project. Um, which is why the research is really important, because the better the clearer. Of course it is exploratory because that's why you're doing the interviews. But but, you know, perhaps a research question, Um, you know what weather? [00:48:00] What were the events that led to the establishment of the lesbian library or something? You know, that's that's a starting point. And then your project plan sort of follows that. I think it's good to have that that can change. And it can be dynamic, but that can let you give, um, people information when you ask them if they wanted to do an interview, you could do a little, um, explant thing, which can be useful to, um, because you know you can send that to them. You can give it to them at the preview you can, and it's really important [00:48:30] to be comfortable with the agreement form, which is where you get people to specify. Um, what sort of restrictions on access there should be, and also where it's going to be kept. So you might, um I mean, I tend to work with the Alexander Turnbull Library because that's got an oral history collection there, and they've got the facility to manage oral history, which you know has its own. You need specialist skills to manage that, especially with, um, digital digital technology. But that's not the only repository. I think it's just about, [00:49:00] um, encouraging people to deposit it somewhere where it can be managed and the access can be controlled. And and I mean, it's It's good practise, of course, to give the person a copy of the interview as well. But, um, and it's up to them what happens to it. But But if there are restrictions and things, then the repository repositories like the Turnbull will manage that and, um, and, you know, restrict access or or let people have access, depending on what people have specified. [00:49:30] Yeah, in terms of working out who to talk to. Another thing that Judith told me is that you can I remember talking to Judith about you know, particular how we should approach the Vietnam interviews. You know, should, um you know, there are. There have been research projects where they've tried to get, you know, someone from every unit, someone from every rank and and And Judith said, Well, it could be good to just do the medical team and just do a really in depth sample of that, you know, that that would [00:50:00] be valuable. And and she's right. So keep always keep that in mind. It's not necessarily. You don't have to try and do, um, sometimes you might want to do a broad sample. Um, what might you be looking at? You know, I don't know gay men talking about their schooling or something, and you might want to try and do a very broad some, or you might just want to go narrow, so don't feel restricted, but, um, And in terms of how to contact people, I guess you just have to [00:50:30] use your, um, your networks. It must be getting easier, I guess. Like you could advertise in the listener for this now, but you wouldn't have been able to do that a few years ago. But, um, you know, just be again, thinking naturally, but also thinking about who you're likely to find in the various ways you might be trying to reach people and it. Yeah, and it might be a case of having to use particular techniques of reaching people. Um, if you're finding that there are, you know you're not [00:51:00] getting a particular group, why can I find those? Some are men in their forties, you know, I might have to if you want, if that's part of the group you want to be talking to. But that's again. That's just good oral history. Practise about, um, just thinking laterally about how to how to contact people. You know, the ministry. They used to, um, get people to do questionnaires and then, on the basis of that work out who to interview. And I was always a bit wary of that I. I guess you had to have a way of, um, selecting people, and they were also dealing with bigger [00:51:30] responses. But it always worried me that, you know, you might miss someone who'd be a terrific interview, but just wasn't that good at putting their thoughts down on paper. And also, just because you're good at writing your thoughts down on paper may not mean you're that good at talking about it, but it's horses for courses that they're different sorts of projects. And I guess also, when you are advertising for interviewees actually questioning, why does this person want to be interviewed? Actually, that what is the motivation for this rather than it must [00:52:00] be quite different if rather than you approaching somebody, actually them responding to an advert. I hadn't thought of that. And journalism. They always used to say to you, You know, everyone always talks to you for a reason. Um, it's not just to help out the news room, you know, I guess oral history is a bit like that as well. They they you know they must. They've got a stake in it and it's a It's a huge thing that you're asking, asking them to do. That's right. Yeah, you're right. If if they've, they've [00:52:30] approached you. Um, but I guess that's part of the, um well, it's all it's before the pre interview, isn't it? It's really working out, You know, you, you you Well, there's a whole stage before the preview of the sort of negotiation and and sussing each other out. Really? But but quite often on the phone or meeting up you can. You can. And sometimes that person might not be right. Sometimes they may not want to do it. Sometimes they may lead you to, um, someone else. It's quite [00:53:00] good. Uh, this is a new This is just a good thing to think of in general is, um, to be recommended can be quite good. You know, to be, um, to work through someone who knows the person you're trying to contact. I would have thought that could That could work well on this for queer history. Because you will, you'll have, uh, for some generations, you know, you will have, um it will be hard and I. I remember doing trying to track down people who [00:53:30] are in the gay rights group and having a terrible time. Um, it might have been me, but it might have also been that generation have, you know, had a different experience of being gay. And and this is the generation who who, you know, lived through law reform but had a whole period before that where it was really difficult. And maybe there's the whole thing of, um, uh, having to be Yeah. Having to be more covert, more close. [00:54:00] Uh, and maybe that's why they wouldn't necessarily respond well to someone from this younger generation. Just sort of bowling up and saying, Oh, tell me what it was like to be gay in the seventies. Um, perhaps, but that's about being sensitive and sort of understanding, Um, as much as you can about the context of what you're trying to do and then you'll do a better interview, Hm?
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