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So I'm wondering, could you just give me a very kind of broad brush stroke over the types of events that you've worked on? Let's see everything. Gosh, um, fashion, um, dance loads of dance parties, loads of contemporary music events, exhibitions, um, festivals like the festival or the hero festival. Um, the Ignite Youth Arts festival. Um, gosh, I mean, just everything from small [00:00:30] cabaret events to large concerts and parks for tens of thousands of people. Um, every kind of scale type of event imaginable. Really, I I've done it when you look at that very, very broad cross section of events. Are there things that are common to all of those events that make them successful? Yes. Organisation, I guess. Um a really, really thorough organisation, [00:01:00] uh, with people involved that really know what they're doing. And I guess events is is very much a people kind of business, and it it it's only as good as the people that are working on it. So if you've got good people around you, which is essential, um, then hopefully you'll produce a good event. And, um, you know, that extends in both directions and also extends to your audience And, um, how involved or how engaged your audience are. So really, I [00:01:30] mean, I guess it's all about people. Is there a difference between organising a gay or queer event and a mainstream event? Yes. Um, it's a programming difference. Essentially, And that you've I mean, whether you're organising a mainstream event or a gay specific event, you've got to know your audience. Um and so you really for an ex? And we're seeing more of this at the moment. We're seeing more, um, straight people being [00:02:00] contracted in to run large gay events. Um, I do have a bit of a problem with that and that they don't have the level of understanding of, um, gay life, gay culture and just the the minutia around that that a gay person would. And they don't. So they can't bring that level of knowledge and experience to programming the event. Um, and I think that that's where it's more important, is is when you're thinking about who [00:02:30] is this event for? What's the audience? Um what are we trying to achieve? Um, who are we going to bring in to help express themselves in this event? Um, what artists are we gonna work with? What Creatives? All of those. All of those questions are really informed, Um are really informed by a gay sensibility or a lesbian sensibility or whatever type of style of event it is. So, yeah, I do think it's important. Do you have an example of where [00:03:00] somebody who wasn't necessarily gay coming in and doing something in a festival that you just think this is just is not working? Yeah. I. I think that the big gay out has become like that in the last couple of years. Um, I know that there are a lot of gay people that are involved in working on that event, but, um, since a few years ago, Ben Barrett boys did a really, really good job in reinvigorating it and rein and and sort of remodelling it a little bit and [00:03:30] did an exceptionally good job of it. It has not changed since then. Same marketing, same virtually the same lineup, same layout, same everything. And I, I think. OK, well, there should be a bit of queer energy or queer thought going into these things that's going to somehow make them a little bit different or quirky or or make you think or challenge you. Uh, it's not happening in that event. I'd like to see that change next year. So what kind of things would you do? [00:04:00] I would have a consultation committee to start off with, um External from the organisation that I was working in to help feed into that with an event of that sort of that's got that that magnitude and that also is there to cater to that broad community. Um, I would get a consultation group together and work at it that way, but also, I'd be looking at how we can change things up each year and how we can make things different and how we can excite the audience. Um, I think that it's important [00:04:30] to treat your audience with the With that respect. Yeah, instead of just sort of spoon feeding them the stuff that you thought worked last year. Um, I think is a little bit lame. So the events that you've been involved with have they been events that have been driven by a specific company or organisation, or have you or have they been more organically come from the community? Both Really. [00:05:00] I mean, I've promoted my own events. Um, which have been driven completely by me and the people that I've been working with at the time. Um, or I've worked within the community in terms of something like, uh, the gold charity auction and dinner, which I did last year and which I was contracted in to, um, to deliver that for the gay Auckland Business Association. So both Really, What are the differences between the two kind of models? Uh, well, one, It's clearly your event. And, um [00:05:30] and so you can you can be a lot sort of freer in terms of, um in terms of what you're trying to achieve and how you want to deliver that, Um, And if you're being contracted in, well, clearly you you're being contracted in to deliver an event that they there are clear expectations around, um, around what that event will be being that you are the experienced event organiser. Within that, you would hope that the group that you were working with would, um, take on board [00:06:00] a lot of your suggestions and and listen to your thoughts on how they see the event going. Um, but they don't always Sometimes they have really clear and fixed ideas about what they want. And so that's what you deliver. Is it possible to talk about that last event that you worked on the the GABA Charitable Trust? Um, auction dinner. Basically, uh, the Gabba Charitable Trust is It's the It's the charitable arm of the gay Auckland Business Association, And, uh, it's the only sort [00:06:30] of the only trust nationwide. I think that, um, that fundraisers, in order to make money, to give back in terms of community grants on an annual basis, Uh, and they do that in the form of scholarships to students, Uh, and also just to to projects that that come forward There are things that, um, the pub charities or that creative New Zealand or the other funding agencies that are out there that wouldn't get a look in from those agencies that they can go [00:07:00] to the Gabba charitable Trust and apply. And they will be get the consideration that they deserve, whether it be the lesbians out west wanting a new sound system, um, so that they can improve the quality of their events. Well, the GABA charitable trust is something that they can come to and apply to for that. And I think that's the the reason why I really wanted to get involved in that event and why I was quite passionate about about doing it. So what kind of brief did they give you? Um, really, because Gabba is a community [00:07:30] organisation. Um, you're dealing with AAA group of people that aren't together professionally all the time. And so it's people change from year to year and and the way it's been run from year to year has changed. So for me, a lot of doing this one was actually about developing some systems so that whether I'm doing it next year or whether somebody else is doing it next year, um, there is at least a template to start with from which you can. Then you can then work with and and build upon [00:08:00] or move sideways or whatever, or or abandon completely and do something completely new and different, which is can also be a good thing. But at least there's a clear starting point. Um, in the past, when a lot of these and it's the case for a lot of these community type of events, um, people people, you know, they have full time jobs, and they're doing this stuff out of the goodness of their heart and trying as hard as they can for the community. But often, you know, it's not left [00:08:30] in the most organised, you know, state, um, with really good filing and really good records and and, you know, contacts and databases and that sort of stuff. So a lot a huge amount of doing that event last year was actually developing those systems, so that, um it would be easier in the future. So what kind of systems are we talking? Can you describe for me? What? You know what that kind of template looks like in the case of, um, of the gold charity option and dinner? [00:09:00] Um, because you're dealing with a charity auction, and that involves a vast auction catalogue. I think we had well over 80 different auction items this time. So you're dealing and communicating with a huge number of people. So it's really having that database of of the database of donors, the database of ticket buyers, the database of people that are actively involved in the event really up to date. Also, um, you one of my goals, [00:09:30] uh, this time was to bring in more solid level of sponsorship so that, um that would help to pay for the event itself and for the entertainment so that the proceeds of the auction were pretty much 100% going to the charity with the way they were supposed to go. And the event was paying for itself, which I managed to achieve this year. This last year with last year's event, which was fantastic. We actually the event itself actually made a little bit of money, um, which I was really, really happy with. But a huge part of that, obviously, is having, um, sponsorship [00:10:00] proposals and having sort of developed prospectus on what the event is, who the audience is having. All of that kind of, um, that written read source, um, and also visual resource of previous options that is there and can be turned around into proposals, whether they be proposals to donors to donate items or whether they're proposals to sponsors to get more actively involved in the event. Um, that resource is really important when you're [00:10:30] looking at putting together packages for sponsors and and saying, Well, this is the audience. This is, you know, this is the market for this event. How did you know who the audience was? How did you know? Well, I'd been to a couple of, um, previous gabber auctions. So I I had had that experience. And really, the core audience for the gabber events is going to be the gabber organisation itself. Um and so you start with that as your core audience, and then you think, OK, so you build out from there. And who are [00:11:00] the other groups that might be interested in this? And what's the What's the capacity of the room and that sort of stuff? And so you build it out that way, but also from a sponsorship perspective you're looking at at, um, how else they're getting exposure apart from simply on the event day. So you're looking at how are they getting exposure through marketing? How are they getting exposure through promotions and communications and that branding, um or that exposure is reaching an audience that might not even even go to the event. [00:11:30] But they're seeing that that particular sponsor, um, is supporting that particular gay event, and that might have meaning for them. What other kinds of research do you do? Gosh, um, I think what? The research. There are questions that need to be asked before you embark on any event. And I This is the stuff that I don't see done often enough, I have to say, with gay events is actually sitting back [00:12:00] right at the start and going here. Why are we doing this event? What? What? What are our aims? What are we hoping to achieve? Um, and being honest, really honest about that, Um, it's great to have kind of, you know, these lofty goals and that sort of stuff. But often a lot of it is is also tied up in people's egos. Um, and that sort of stuff. And I think it's really important to be honest about that stuff and to get it on the table before you even start doing an event. Because, really, if you're just [00:12:30] doing another event so that you can see yourself on top of a float pon, you know, floating down Ponsonby Road, that's a pretty bad reason to do it. Um, if you're genuinely doing it so that people, um there's more exposure to gay people or what's What's the well for pride reasons, I guess. And all the the many, um, sort of reasons that go with that, then that's great. But, you know, I think people need to be honest about why they're getting involved in the events and why they're doing it. Because, [00:13:00] yes, events can be fun. And yes, they can be dynamic and sometimes they even make money. But, um, more often than not, they lose money. They're exhausting, they're draining and they can actually drag community organisations down with them. Uh, I've seen community organisations great community organisations commit themselves to events that have, um, have caused them more harm than they've caused them. Good. And so you question Well, why Why are you doing that event? What are you what? What are you hoping to achieve? Is this a good idea for the organisation and [00:13:30] then beyond that thinking? Ok, so who's the audience for this? Are we being realistic? Um, and start asking some of those questions before sort of going Ok, well, you know, we want 10 tonnes of tinsel on top of that trailer. For many organisations, that kind of methodical approach is just doesn't happen How do you have any tips for somebody just in those initial stages To think. How do you methodically go through that? Um, just take a step back, take [00:14:00] a deep breath. Um, stop and think. And actually, you know, get a white board, write a few questions up, um, get a few people in a room, get some friends that know what they're doing in a room and actually bounce some ideas off it. I think that the gay community or the I mean, I'll just say gay community, but it will talk in a broader sense. Um, we have loads and loads of community events every year, and that's a great thing. Um, they [00:14:30] are of varying quality. Um, what I personally would like to see is maybe a few less community events, but maybe a few more that are of a of a higher quality. Um, because if you're talking about pride, um, as a concept and and achieving, making people feel better about themselves and about who they are, then for me, I think that they would that that more people will feel better about themselves if they're experiencing something that is of a higher level of quality, [00:15:00] um, and that they feel genuinely proud of, as opposed to just turning up at so once you've come up with the idea of, you know, Well, this is actually a good reason for doing another event. Is the next step actually just writing that down so that you've actually got something on people? So you wanna write it all down? Seriously, um, any of those kind of words and adjectives that come to you and your discussions write them down, um, they'll come back and they'll be useful later on. When you're writing the proposals and you're, um, talking [00:15:30] to artists or explaining what your event is or you're writing your media release, um, and trying to excite the media about what your event is, or you're, um, trying to sell the event to a sponsor. All of that stuff will be really handy. So write it down. So, getting back to the the the the charity auction, how far out are you planning? How long before the event do you start working on it? There's one thing you can be sure of is you can always do with more time. Um, for [00:16:00] me, sort of as a kind of off the top of my head. I'd like to be working on something like that six months out, Um, and like to be contracted into it that far out. So you've got some certainty around what you're doing, Um, and be actively working on it that far out, even though, you know, it will become a lot more intense. Um, when you get closer to the date, Um, but actually, with that one there were there were waves of intensity. There were the huge wave of output was needed kind of right at the start in terms of, um, coming [00:16:30] up with all that resource that could then go off to sponsors and potential auction donors and that sort of thing. And, um so there there's a huge wave of of stuff there. And then when it was time to actually start working on the auction catalogue itself, I mean, I I'd never done an auction catalogue before. That was my first one. So it was a huge learning experience for me. Um, and also, you realise, kind of how, what an in depth sort of process that is and how many different people you are dealing with and that they all kind [00:17:00] of need talking to, and they all kind of need to have. They all have their own kind of expectations of why they're donating, and and you kind of got to got to give them time to talk that through and and respect that, um, and that those sort of human processes take a hell of a long time. And then, of course, you get closer to it and you get closer to the event itself. And, um, the amount of time spent on it ramps right up again. And then afterwards the event's finished and you fall [00:17:30] over for two weeks. I mean, that's sort of classic event event management stuff is that, you know, be prepared to fall over after the event because you will not feel 100%. You've said a number of times about the fact that it is so much about kind of people management interaction with people. And I'm wondering, do you have or can you talk about the kind of different types of language that you use for different people? Like, for instance, when [00:18:00] you're talking to event sponsors or event audiences or, um, creatives that are working on the event or the people that are hiring you. They all will be requiring different language, won't they? It's like a multi octopus lingual version of English, um, in which funders need to be spoken to completely different to sponsors. Sponsors need to be spoken to completely different to artists. Artists need to be spoken to completely [00:18:30] different to donors. Um, they all have. And that's APR thing. It's a it's being empathy, empathetic to the person that you're dealing with or the person that you're speaking with and doing it in the way that they want to hear it, or that they want to discuss it or it's communication. It's just finding a way to engage with them. And often, um, that means adapting [00:19:00] the language. Um, very. I mean, funding funding in particular, is a very specific language of its own Do. Do you have examples? Um, well, you know, if you're dealing with some sort of hip hop artist, it might be Yeah, bro. How's it going? You know, um, you know, do you want do you want to come down to the event? It's all good. Da da da da da So very sort of casual, and you're kind of dealing with it on a in a sort of really streety kind of way. Um, if you're dealing with funders, [00:19:30] well, they've got very clear expectations about what the funding is there to achieve and what the funding goals are. And you have to you kind of almost use their own language. Um, to deliver that back to them, um, so or dealing with Corporates. Obviously, you're going into a kind of a more of a corporate sponsor. Kind of very, very business language. Um, so it it varies dramatically from very creative use of the language to very sort of, um, formal [00:20:00] use of the language. So is it more about, uh, mirroring what the other? How the other person is speaking often? Yeah. So in your communications, with with all these different types, that's true across the board, That's true in life in general, really, isn't it? But I guess with events, because you're dealing with, you know, a whole lot of a whole lot of very disparate groups, often and and different types of people. I guess maybe it's a bit more magnified in that sense. So in your communication with all those different types [00:20:30] of people. Are you much more of face to face person or a email person? Or how does how does that work for you personally? I'm an email person. Yeah, Um, yeah. I'll pick up the phone and do it that way. Um, uh, it's taken me a lot of time to be more comfortable in meetings. I generally my preferred way of working is to have a front person. And I'm kind of the, um the sort of backup sort of resource that kind of goes [00:21:00] with them, and that person fronts the meeting. And I'm sort of holding bits of knowledge and resource that they might need to know throughout it. That's my preferred kind. But that's a purely individual thing. And it's just my way of working. I wouldn't expect anybody else to be that crazy. Do you have any more examples of the different types of communication? I just I just think it's it's really basic communication PR skills. It's just being empathetic to whoever you're communicating [00:21:30] with at the time, um, and and telling it to them in a way that is easy for them to understand and that, um makes them want to support what you're doing. I guess, um, where that becomes often most important with events is when you get down to marketing and publicity and you're actually communicating directly with your audience. Um, that's where you have to really know your stuff. And that's where you have to really know your audience as well. [00:22:00] So for me, someone that's produced, um, sort of innumerable dance parties and nightclub events over the years. One thing that I'm actually really, really aware of is that now that I'm now that I'm 40 is that, um, I'm not as a with the language of a 20 year old who would be going to that style of event these days. And so if I was to be producing [00:22:30] another one of those events, I would try to either a work with I I Well, I think it would be essential to work with someone who's from that demographic who knows that audience really well, um and and can advise me on how to communicate with them. Um, I think that there's, you know, that's that's one reason why I sort of have stepped out of doing a lot of parties these days is that I actually think that parties as a sort of, um genre or a or a or [00:23:00] a medium, um, are best done by the kids that are going to them themselves, and not by older guys who are looking at it from a sort of profit perspective, um, or an ego perspective or whatever. Um, I think it's much more healthy that the kids are running those parties for themselves and, you know, often times like with so homo or some of those sort of club more recent club nights that have come along, the promoters come to me and sort of asked for my opinion on stuff. And I love helping these kids with this stuff, [00:23:30] and I love that they're doing it for themselves and that they're expressing themselves much more important than me coming along and putting one on at this point. So you're acting more as a mentor often these days, Yeah, and particularly with regards to sort of, um, sort of contemporary concerts or nightclub events or that kind of stuff. Yeah, I sort of I get quite a number of them gay or lesbian that that come to me and, um, I love helping them. It's fabulous. What kind of questions do they ask? [00:24:00] Oh, gosh, Everything, um, around budgets or around programming or around marketing Or, you know, even just sort of, you know, how do I get my posters distributed? Or how do I How do I How do I organise my ticketing or, um, what do you think about this act? Or do you think that would work or is is does this press release read OK? I mean, they ask loads of different things, and it's, um [00:24:30] yeah, No, it's great. I love I love helping them. I would never say no. I'm wondering if you can talk me through or take me through a bit of a timeline as to, like, say, for instance, with the the A charitable action. When things happen within that six month period leading up to the event in terms of being a resource for other people, it's really depending on dependent on the event. Every event will have its own will be individual and will have its own timeline. Um, [00:25:00] and different styles of events will have very different timelines from, you know, I don't know opera new Zealand producing an opera's timeline will be completely different to, um to the to a gab, a timeline or a festival day in a park timeline. So it's really hard for me to answer that question without sort of looking at a specific event. I guess, uh, the other question would be, you know, is it important to have a timeline? Yes, absolutely, it is. It's also important to be, um, to be flexible [00:25:30] enough to know that it's not always going to remain the same and that it will change. But, um, you should definitely have, um, deadlines for certain things in terms of when the tickets go on sale. Um, when the marketing should be distributed. Um, those sorts of really important milestones, I I'd say, uh, probably rather more than having a really, really heavily involved time timeline. I think it's important to have a really [00:26:00] good handle on those those milestones in terms of the size of team that works on events. Do you have any ideas about, uh, what is a good size team? To be working on an event well, less is often more, Um, that that's that's because people have really varied opinions And when you're talking about, um, their culture or the art that they enjoy or the entertainment or experiences that they enjoy? [00:26:30] Well, of course, they've got very personal and very strong viewpoints on that. So organising an event with a committee, um, is, you know, can I say fuck? Um because that's what it is. Um and, um, you know. But it can also be a real positive because you've got all this resource that's available to you and you've got all these brains and they're bringing different thoughts and different levels of expertise [00:27:00] and areas of expertise that you yourself have. So working with the committee is only as good as as you're able to manage the committee. In many ways, it's harder, but it can be more rewarding. How does that work in a situation where say the committee is paying you to organise something and yet the committee is is is the one that's kind of coming up with new ideas and maybe continually changing the ideas. How does that work for you? You need to have balls. You need to be really, really strong. [00:27:30] You actually need to be able to stand there and go I'm sorry. That's not going to work. Or, you know, I'm sorry we actually signed off on this several weeks ago, and I'm already moving forward in that direction. And I'm not making that change at this point. Or, you know, you just actually have to be able to say, Look, I'm sorry, this and and give reasons this is why, And it can be very time consuming, and it can be very, um, annoying and exasperating, but the on the other side of it, people will also bring really great ideas that you wouldn't have thought of to the table. [00:28:00] Well, they'll bring in resource that wouldn't have otherwise been available to you. So it's kind of swings and roundabouts. So you you mentioned the idea of sign off. Is that something that you do a lot of? Um, not so much formally as, um, as kind of just making sure when you're in those committee meetings that when there is an agreement, that it's everybody knows and it's noted. And, um and then you move on to the next thing. So [00:28:30] so that when it does, if there is a change or things do shift, um, that it's pretty clear What the what the intention or the direction was. Obviously, where contractual stuff is concerned, Get it in writing, even if it's just an email, get it in writing. Keep that email, don't delete it. Save it for years. But, uh uh, where that sort of stuff is concerned, you must have it in writing. Moving closer to the event. Do [00:29:00] you have a A general order of things that happen? Like, for instance, do you go marketing tickets? Physical planning, location? How does that work? Well, as a generalisation, I guess. First of all, it's kind of concept. So it's sitting down, and it's figuring out sort of a broad brush strokes kind of concept about what the event is. Who is it for? What's it aiming to achieve all those questions we've previously discussed? Then, from there, I would probably go into programming [00:29:30] next. So which who are you going to work with? Which artists, musicians, performers? Um, are you going to work with and realising, um, those goals, Um, and then sometimes you know that that can be switched around. Sometimes if it's just a straight concert, somebody's bringing that artist over, and you're going to promote them. Well, that's already sorted out for you. You might just be looking at who's the support act? Um, and then from there, I guess you look at your team [00:30:00] and you look at the people that you want to work with on this event. Um, and very important aspect of that is going to be, um, who's going to be your publicist? Who's going to do your marketing? Who's going to do your graphic design? Photography illustrations, that sort of stuff. That sort of stuff can take quite a long, a long time to generate. So you need to start thinking about that stuff quite early on. Um, then you've got your milestones. Set your key milestones in terms of when different types of media are going [00:30:30] to hit. Um, and you've got your tickets go on sale date. Obviously, before that, straight after the programming, you need to be thinking about sponsorship. Um, the sponsors need to be brought on as early as possible. They can't be an afterthought. Um, sponsors or funders. Both of these things take have long lead in times, uh, more so obviously funding than sponsorship. Um, but they both require an external organisation to run it through their departments, [00:31:00] um, to give you approval or otherwise. So that's gonna take time. Um, And along while you're doing that, hopefully you're designing your marketing and getting all that stuff ready to go. Um, what's gonna happen if nobody sponsors your event? What's gonna happen if you can't find a sponsor for that event? You don't really want to go too far down the trail of confirming everything and contracting people until you know that your budget is going to work. God, we haven't even talked about budgeting. Um, how did I miss that out? Um, [00:31:30] that I mean, that comes right in at the very, very start again. Um, if your budget's not working, if it doesn't stack up, if it's not realistic and it's not realisable, don't bother. Um, then I guess you're into your your marketing, marketing and ticketing should probably happen at the same time. Um, as a general rule, I wouldn't want any less than sort of six weeks lead in for ticket sales. Um, for most events, uh, it gives it gives. [00:32:00] And then that's only purely speaking from a New Zealand perspective. I know it works different in other places. But it does give people time to get the ticket into their hand. Get a bit excited about it. Different groups all know that they're going. They've got their tickets in their hands. Often the ticket itself is a great little flyer and a great piece of marketing. And so if you can get tickets into people's hands early on, um, that itself can help generate sales. So the ticketing aspects are really, really [00:32:30] important. And it's really important that you don't just sort of throw it on sale last minute and expect people to suddenly turn up, because oftentimes it won't happen. Then I guess you've got to book your production and you've got to, gosh, you know, booking venue. That should have come right back at the beginning as well. Those are essential things, Um, and then working with timelines in terms of the event itself and how that's going to run on the day or on the night. So I mean, is this? It's there's heaps [00:33:00] of aspects to it, and one of the great things about event events management is that you kind of often end up becoming a bit of a jack of all trades and you have to get in. You have to get stuck in on a number of different levels. Everything from copy writing to budgeting to, um, to actually managing people in crowds on the day, um are often done by the one person. And so that sort of I think that's a great thing. What a great thing to actually be able to learn [00:33:30] all that stuff on the job. If I was doing an event for the first time, what would your advice be? Because there are so many things to learn. Where would I start? How would I, um or would you suggest I not do it myself and well, no. If you're if you're a first time gay event organiser looking to do a first time gay event, um, and you want to do it all by yourself, my advice would be don't, um please, uh, find someone [00:34:00] that has some experience and that they and that knows what they're doing. Um, and that has, you know, sort of proven track record and bring them on board and ask them for their thoughts. And what do they think about this event? Is it a good idea. Um, is it are Are its aims realistic? Does the budget work? Um, or are you just kind of Is it a bit of a sort of feel good pie in the sky? Kind of. Yeah. It would be great to do that. But, you know, it could end up costing [00:34:30] you a lot of money and, um, exhausting and draining you emotionally and physically. So, um, you know, get someone on board that really, really knows, You know, it doesn't always have to be for financial remuneration, either. There are plenty of us out there that have been doing this for a long time that have loads of experience and are more than happy, um, to give our opinion at no cost. So find those people and and, um, and make good use of them. [00:35:00] You You're right. We haven't really talked about budgets. And I'm just wondering, um, for you What? What what makes a good budget break even for me Makes a good budget. I. I, um often I don't think that these community events really you got I mean, let's be realistic about the size of the market here. I think people often overestimate the size of the GL BT XYZ market. Um, in New Zealand, Um, it's not big. [00:35:30] It's not big at all. And so be realistic. And if you really aim to break even if you make a little bit of money, that's a bonus. But, um, sort of looking at these community events as they're going to be great money makers is, um, a little bit stupid. In my opinion, where does most money go on a budget? Um, sorry. Just the break even is success, you know, often break even if you've. If you've run a really good quality event, your audience has [00:36:00] had a fantastic time. Um, your goals have been achieved, and you've broken even. You're a winner. Where does most money go on a budget? Um, gosh, where does most money go on? A budget production often, and venue. Those are really big costs. Um, marketing can be a really huge cost if you're looking at advertising in the Herald or, um, and some of those bigger, bigger places, express can be a very expensive place to advertise. Um, but, you know, there [00:36:30] are also cheap ways to get your message out there, especially now that there's social networking, media and and, um, websites and online communications. Um, and you should never underestimate the power of developing your own database. Um, which you know is more than just accumulating 10,000 friends on Facebook and spamming them. It's actually about spending a lot of time actually finding out who's going to your events con consulting with them as much as communicating [00:37:00] with them, making them feel like they're part of something. And they are. They can be. They can have give you feedback to the event and, um, and then treating them with with the respect that they deserve as loyal audience members. Um, yeah, I think there are. There are there are ways to do it that aren't necessarily that expensive. Um, the other thing is, often the area of the budget that is smallest is the artists and the performers, and [00:37:30] that breaks my heart. Um, those people, a lot of them that that is, that's their profession. That's what they do for a living. And they've been doing it for longer than you've been running events, and they're very good at what they do. And, um, you know, expecting these people to turn up for like, 50 bucks in a bar tab is insulting. Um, so don't do it. Can you talk to me a wee bit about when you're putting together a budget? How do you factor in things like sponsorship and in kind [00:38:00] support and kind of real money and and kind of balance it up? Do you have any kind of formulas for? Well, just it's profit and loss, its income and expenditure. It's that simple, really. So it's just, you know, these are all this is all year, areas of income. This is all your areas of expenditure, and, um and here's the difference. Um, you really need to be very realistic in the area of income. Um, [00:38:30] in terms of what ticket sales are actually achievable. Um, and with sponsorship for me personally, I've always rather than putting in a sort of a generic sponsorship figure, I'll actually think specifically of OK, I can see a couple of $1000 coming from there, maybe $1000 coming from there and factoring them in individually rather than saying, Hey, here's a big sort of $10,000 marketing. Uh, sorry. $10,000 sponsorship, um, sum and then it's [00:39:00] not really realisable Also, um, underestimate your income. Be surprised. You know, if if it comes out at the other end and you do better than that, um don't sort of do these sort of pie in the sky. Um, income figures, because they won't happen. So with sponsorship in the New Zealand context, is it hard to find sponsors either money or in kind support? [00:39:30] Um to do with with queer events? Yes, it is. Um, you have to be You have to think really creatively and you have to You have to sort of target um target quite specific organisations. Um you do have gay organisations or queer organisations that will support you like, uh, like gay NZ dot com or like express that will give you in kind support. Um very it's a lot [00:40:00] rarer to find a gay organisation that's actually gonna throw some cash at you. Um, a lot of it really comes down to personal contacts built up over a long period of time and a very long track record. Don't burn your sponsors don't disappoint your sponsors. Don't, um don't insult your sponsors by chopping and changing to other organisations that are in the same Indus industry group as [00:40:30] there and treat them with the respect that, um, that that they deserve for investing in your event. Um, yeah. What are some of the the the things that you, as an event organiser, would offer a sponsor in terms of you know what? What would they get out of it? Oh, multiple levels of exposure. Um, there's everything from sort of from the the marketing and publicity exposure, which can often be as simple as name checking and press releases or logos on artwork, [00:41:00] um, through to the on the night exposure of of how their brand is going to be communicated to the audience on the night. That's all pretty standard stock standard stuff. Um, beyond that, you actually try to think of creative ways for the sponsor to get more involved in the event, Um, at not necessarily at more cost to them. Um, so you know, if it's a fashion show, it might be getting their product in some context onto the runway with [00:41:30] the models or, um making or getting them involved getting their product involved in goodie bags so so that customers are actually directly experiencing their products. Um, yeah. Think as creatively as you can about ways in which the sponsor can get involved in the event. Um, often, that's the difference between whether they'll give you the sponsorship money or not. If you're just sort of going in and sort of sending in standard Y, yeah, you'll get the logo, you'll get name checked here, [00:42:00] and bang, bang, bang. Um, yawn. But if you can give them a point of difference and go, you know, we're going to we're going to, um, communicate your brand in this way and really get it. Um, get your brand involved in the event and involved with the audience they might think about. Think think more carefully about it. You've mentioned a couple of times about, um, consulting the audience, talking to the audience. And I'm wondering, how do you get [00:42:30] genuine feedback from an audience about an event? Um, often, it's really, really difficult. Often you really have to ask around because, um, this might it's just a part of contemporary. The contemporary society that we we live in today is you don't get much critical response anymore. Um, once upon a time, there were reviewers that would go and review things, and you would get a lot of critical response. And, you know, some people reacted really well to that and other people. Not so well, [00:43:00] um, personally, I'm always really in favour of receiving critical response. Um, and it can be really hard to to find, because people just want to sort of pat you on the back or go Oh, yes. Wasn't it fabulous or oh, yes. Wasn't it great? Well, it's a little bit of a cop out. Easy response. To be honest, I'd rather that people actually really thought about it and went OK, you know, that was great. That was great. That was great. And that could have been better. And if I can find someone who can give me that, that could [00:43:30] have been better. That's gold. That is really, really gold. It's often really hard to find these days, and you have to really get around your audience and really grill them to get it out of them. Um, it can be quite difficult because they just want to. They just want to tell you that everything's great and everything's happy and everything's nice, and, um, they don't necessarily want to tell you the hard stuff. Um, but the hard stuff is more valuable. What about the other situation? Where, for instance, some online forums are [00:44:00] leaning more to the negative, and and it's it's it's kind of just bitching about events. How how do you How do you navigate through that kind of 21st century talkback? Um, ignore it. No, Um, read it, take it on board. Um, but you can't if it's if it's just online forum bit. Um, then you really you should still read it. There might be some useful stuff in there, [00:44:30] but you probably can't let it way too heavily on your mind, or it'll do you in. So do you do any kind of, uh, debrief after an event, You know, in terms of like, looking at all this feedback and and yes, um, and the level of formality around that really depends on the event as to whether you're going to do an actual formal follow up report or whether it's just stuff that you go. Oh, OK. And take note of that and store it in your head for later. But, um, yes, always. And what are the kind of things you look at. [00:45:00] Oh, gosh. Um, right across the board. Um, was it a good choice of artist? Was it a good choice of opening act? Uh, did you like the lighting? Was it? You know, did you did? Was the sound quality good enough? Um, was it a good choice of venue with the bar staff friendly? Um, all that sort of stuff? Yeah. I mean, every aspect of the event that you can imagine. Um, I've discovered after doing the the gaol charity auction and dinner [00:45:30] that the sound levels at the very with the very back row of tables weren't as good as as I would hope. That's something that I've that I'll note for next year. It took me a lot of time to find that out. I didn't actually find that out on the night. I think I found it out a couple of weeks later. Um, and also that perhaps the lighting levels could have been raised a little bit back there during the actual auction segment of of the evening. Um, so yeah, it it can [00:46:00] be really It can be really subtle differences. Or it can be stuff that's just a an all out stuff up. Um, but yeah, hopefully if it's an all out stuff up. You noticed on the night you mentioned the newses, and it's something we haven't covered. And I'm just wondering, do you have any advice in terms of choosing venues and what to look out for? No, it's a It's a fundamental part of programming. It's as as important as selecting the right artists. Um Hm. [00:46:30] I guess work with a venue that's reputable. That has, um that has really good people working within it. Um, that has really good technical resource. Um, often, that can be a huge make a huge difference to your budget in terms of how much resource the venue itself has available to you, uh, in terms of a sound system or a or a lighting rig, um, that you might not have to bring in all [00:47:00] that, uh, resource from externally. Um, so, yeah, I mean, it's it's a It's a fundamental part of the event. Make sure that the that the venue actually matches the style of event that you're putting on and that it's a venue that your audience wants to go to. It's not often Actually, that's a gay specific thing. Um, I've discovered over the years that gay people actually don't like and mass going to venues [00:47:30] that are too far off the beaten track or that they've had no prior experience of. They like to feel comfortable. They like to know that they're welcome there. Um, that's something that definitely needs to be taken into consideration when running a queer event. And also, I'm thinking not just the venue itself, but I guess the location and things like parking and all of those external things around the event. Uh, yeah, you have to. You do you have to think about all that stuff as well. Um, probably secondary [00:48:00] to what's happening inside the room. Um, but yeah, I mean, parking parking is important. The I've have worked on events with very expensive hotel parking being the only parking that was adjacent to it. And we figured that one out. And so next time we used that venue, we figured out a way that, um that patrons that were coming to the event, um, we're able to get, um, we're able to pick up parking chips. That would give them a discount, so yeah, that that stuff needs to be taken into into consideration, [00:48:30] particularly if it's, uh, an event in the centre of the city that's got real. That's going to have really expensive parking all around it. The events that you've been involved with have they been predominantly kind of professionally driven, or have they involved a lot of volunteer people? And if they and if so what? How was that? Both, Um, again, it's the committee ones that involve a lot of volunteers. Uh, I guess Hero is [00:49:00] a huge example of of that style of event in which everybody in the community felt like they had some level of ownership of that and some level of involvement in that. So you really, really have to. You really have to be very, very careful what you do when you're working with some with a festival or a brand or something. That's that iconic, that it's sewn into the fabric of the community. And, um, it's it's fraught. You have to be [00:49:30] really, really, really careful in that area. So how far into heroes history did you become involved? Got it. It had been around quite a while when I got formally involved with it as a as a board member and started, um, producing the two hero parties that I produced. Um, it was towards the end of the heyday of hero. Um, in fact, it was the the town hall party that I produced in 2001. That was the same [00:50:00] year that, um there was over expenditure on the parade. Things organizationally started to look really shocky. And the whole thing really started to fall over. Um, that broke my heart because that event, actually that big hero party at the town hall, um, was incredibly profitable and sent quite a lot of money back into the organisation, and it really all got misused, chewed up and spit out. Can you talk a wee bit more [00:50:30] about hero in terms of coming into an event that was well established and kind of taking it forward? Um, and it's also interesting with hero because, I mean, it was such a successful event, and then to have it kind of crumble so quickly. I mean, maybe could you comment on on how things can crumble so quickly and what to look out for? Um, I guess its eyes were bigger than its belly. And, um, it it was the parade. Make no mistake, [00:51:00] it was the parade that that killed Hero. Um, which is why I kind of really roll my eyes when I hear proposals for new Auckland pride festivals that involve large parades. Kind of rolling down Ponsonby Road. Um, a it makes me think, Oh, God, can we have Have we not got a new idea in our heads? Um, and B? I also recognise the reality that it was the, um the cost and the sort of human expense [00:51:30] of hero of the hero parade That really sunk hero as a festival as a whole. Um, so it was a question, but he is a really tricky It's a really tricky discussion to have, um, it can go on for hours, and everybody's got their own perspective on it. And I think my question probably didn't help because it was actually, it was a It was a double banger question. I mean, the first thing is, um, what was it like coming into, uh, an event that had been going for a number of years? It [00:52:00] was fabulous. It was inspiring. It was I mean, I wanted nothing more at that stage than to produce the hero party because I had experienced so many hero parties that had, um, really impacted on me and really inspired me and changed the way that I that I looked at things or changed the way that I experienced things or, um, that were just landmark events in my life. And so when I sort of realised, OK, you, all your capabilities [00:52:30] are kind of heading in this direction, you could actually do this yourself and found myself in a position of doing it. Um, I just I guess I just felt really lucky and and and inspired, and I guess you're walking on the shoulders of Giants, and I know that's a cliche. But there were some great, um, party directors that came before me. And so it felt to me like I needed to honour their legacy as well as move things [00:53:00] forward creatively. Do you think it was easier to come into an event that was long established, or was that more of a kind of a rope? Unique? No, it's It's always easier to come into an event that has an established audience. There's no question about that whatsoever. Um, that's one of the issues with it at the moment is that it's been practically a decade since there has been an established audience for a, uh, full scale hero festival. So for whoever wants to sort of move an [00:53:30] Auckland pride idea forward, they're really dealing with something that really has to build from the ground up or from the grass roots up. Um, which I think is if you're going to start something like that again, that's really where it it comes right back to people. And so you've really got to start small and and make people love it and make people get involved in it and make people engage and participate in it. And it's not just a matter of coming in with this kind of, um, rigid, um, historic template and trying [00:54:00] to impose it on people because that audience doesn't exist anymore. And not only that, but the creative people that used to make all those floats and that used to be involved in all those floats or the marching boys that used to go down Ponsonby Road. They don't exist anymore either, so yes, if it's if it's got a long history and it and it's and it's established and it's healthy. Huge plus. And the idea that hero kind of disintegrated really quickly [00:54:30] over a very short space of time. Um, does that point to the fact that events can actually crumble really quickly? Well, it didn't actually. It, um it died over a long, arduous, um, and really kind of insulting to the memory of what it was time. Um, it probably should have been allowed to have fallen over quite quickly after, um, [00:55:00] after the sort of financial organisational disasters of 2001. Um, or it should have changed its model quite radically at that time, but it sort of allowed was allowed to sort of Peter on and Peter on. And I guess people have an emotional involvement in it and an ego involvement. I know there were certain board members, um, that say stayed attached to it a long time after it had actually been [00:55:30] a great festival, and it became a really sad shadow of itself and was allowed to sort of drift aimlessly on and and trying to imitate its glory days. Um, and it became, to all intents, and purposes a gay theme park of prior hero glories. And that's really, really sad. Um, and it it doesn't help anybody who wants to do anything new, because it actually went down [00:56:00] in a really sort of drawn out tragic, arduous way and all those people that had all that love for it and really genuine, heartfelt love for it on a really deep level, um, were hurt watching it sort of disintegrate over a long period of time. I think it was a long and messy death. It's an interesting point. Do you find that it's good, Or maybe not so good to be, like, emotionally involved in these [00:56:30] kind of events? Do you or do you do you take a step back and take it more professional kind of attitude? It's a double edged sword. Um, it's essential to be emotionally involved in it, to feel passionate about it, that I mean, and that goes, and for whatever you do, you should always I mean, no one really wants to be going and clocking in clocking out every day. I mean, you should feel passionate about what you're doing. Um, but you know, with that comes the other side of things is that sometimes things won't go the [00:57:00] way that you want them to go, and, um, it'll hurt. And so you have to be strong enough to sort of bear that when it when it happens and it will happen. Were there any other kind of key learnings from hero for you? There are a lot of negatives from here I that that I came across. Um, there was a level of fraud and a level of dishonesty, and there were a lot of sort [00:57:30] of inflated egos and stuff that I've really tried to avoid. Um, since, um, that that's why I, I guess. I guess maybe it's made me really conscious of the need to kind of sit down and and be honest and get all the stuff out on the table in the first place and actually think about why we're doing this event and who the event is for and why we feel passionate about it. Um, I think [00:58:00] that it's made my desire to have that clearer, um, stronger thinking of marketing, uh, events. And I'm just wondering, um, a couple of strands here, one is Do you have any tips or tricks for getting media involved in in queer events. It's Yeah, um, it's tricky because it can backfire if you can pull media stunts that, [00:58:30] um, are boring and lame. And that's not going to reflect well on your event at all. Sure you got their attention. You did. You did your look at me, but, um, really important if you're gonna yell, Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Really important that there's something worth looking at. Be personal, be direct. Um, in the same way that you would be if you were dealing with a sponsor rather media. They They're people, too. They individuals, [00:59:00] too. They don't, you know, Don't just spam them, come up with an angle for them. Come up with an angle that's specific to their medium to their newspaper, their magazine, their radio show what? Their TV programme, Whatever. Something that's unique and exclusive to them, um, and talk to them directly about it. Don't just spam them because it's really easy to hit. Delete. Do you have any examples of kinds of angles [00:59:30] that that you've used in the past? Well, I guess a really obvious one that doesn't they don't get thought about that much is the, um is the local newspapers? Um, the community newspapers? Very. It's often very hard to get coverage for your event in a national newspaper in the Herald. But you may have a performer or an artist who is from a specific [01:00:00] area who's from West Auckland or from South Auckland, or from the area where the Moua Courier is, or from the Eastern Bays, Courier or the Central Leader. And, um so you can offer those. You can give those people something that's directly pertinent to their audience and to the to the sort of the area that they represent. Um, and that gives them a special angle for that story. So that's a kind of really obvious one and one that I do quite a lot. [01:00:30] Have you encountered any kind of homophobia in in in the kind of media in terms of not running gay stores? Um, really I? I mean, on the one hand, it's really important to have a really supportive gay media, which we have got, which is great. Um hm. Yes, II I It's not so much that they will say no to your story this is the mainstream media, [01:01:00] um, or that they'll be anti doing the story at all because it's gay. Um, but it's the perspective that they bring to it often, which is an interesting thing. It's their, um, their media perspective on what gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender is. And that's often that's often what can feel slightly insulting. It can feel like they're just setting you up as some kind of look at the gays laughable entertainment. [01:01:30] Um, you saw this a lot. You you see this a lot with media around the big gay out and the stereotypes that they go for and that they try to put on screen and the oddly, um, sort of cliched questions that they ask. So it's not so much a question of, you know, will. Will they not cover me because I'm gay? That more? How will they cover me? What about marketing to queer communities? Do you have any ideas about, you know? Is there a specific [01:02:00] imagery or words or kinds of language that you use to actually get to that kind of community or those communities? Um, visual stuff? There's there's a visual language for gay men particularly, um, that often involves a sort of naked man on a poster. Um, and you see a lot of it. And sometimes over the years, I have, um I've gone into that. I've I've [01:02:30] sort of gone along with that cliche. Um, because I know that the audience that I'm after is sort of very mainstream, um, very mainstream gay. Or in the case of when I did the dance party for the opening of the out games. Well, OK, that was a very sporting gay shirts, off type type of market. So I had no problem with kind of, um, working that cliche, Um, the shirtless guy on the poster. Um, but [01:03:00] personally, it's a personal thing. I like to be a little bit more creative and challenging than that in general. Um, so usually I wouldn't do it, but it has done a lot. What about to other parts of the community, like lesbians? Transgender. Um, yeah. I mean, there are There are looks that that sort of sort of sparkly, glamorous looks that might go go with a drag event, or, I don't know, the use of [01:03:30] of the use of purple on on lesbian. Um imagery Or there's all sorts of, um, visual sort of visual touch points that work for different groups. Um, I guess the use of big, burly, hairy men on a Bears poster. Um, these are images that, um, that those groups identify with. So actually, the thing that's most difficult is when you're trying to do a really inclusive event that actually covers all of those [01:04:00] groups. That's hard. And what's the answer? Well, sadly, often, the answer is a realistic answer, which goes, OK. The largest number of people that are going to be coming to this particular event are going to be gay men. So we'll cop out and we'll go for that level for that For that imagery, Um, that's the general fallback. Um, I try to be more creative than that. And what about language? Like I [01:04:30] mean, for instance, would you use the word queer on a poster or gay LGBTI? What? What kind of language would you use? Um, it depends on who the event, who, the who the audience is and how the audience identifies themselves. And, um, you would market that event to that audience in the way that they'd like to be, um, in the way that they'd like to be, um, labelled. So if we took the example of a very generic kind of [01:05:00] queer audience What what language would you use? Um, I would probably spell it out as, um, and use all the words gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, Um, and all of the additional ones that have been added in recent times. Um, I would do that Probably more than go for the generic queer, because because, um, those groups are individual groups. They often have very little in common. Um, [01:05:30] they're very distinct. Um, and a they don't actually fit together terribly comfortably under one word and, you know, and proposals and things you end up shortening it to the GL BT plus so or the LGBT plus, or however you do it. So that kind of realisation that actually, maybe the queer community is full of little communities. [01:06:00] Was that something that you always knew? Or is it is this something that you've realised as you've done events? Um, it was probably one of the strongest learnings from being involved in hero. I would say, um, one of the things that I was really into when I sort of, um, when I did that first big party at the town hall, um was to get a consultation group together that reflected all of those different sort of different groups and different and different subgroups. [01:06:30] Um, and I tried to have people that were actively sort of on the scene, going out, experiencing parties, that parties were a part of their life but that they also came from each one of those groups. And so they were able to input, um, input, thought and direction from from those groups and from their own communities. Um, as well as then. Once the production was up and [01:07:00] running and the marketing was up and running, being able to communicate that back to their particular groups. So they were, you know, incredibly valuable, um, sort of facilitators of communication, that kind of consulting group. Do you use that group throughout the kind of gestation of the event, or is it just solely at the start? And then you say, OK, I've got my ideas. I'm gonna go and do it now, or it depends on the event. But if I was going [01:07:30] to run a proper consultation group, I would run them regularly. Um, from the very start, right through till after the event. Um, I think that that's, you know, just calling them together for a one-off brain pick is fine. But, um, if you're going to make better use of them, then then sort of doing it over a long period of time is good in terms of events and using volunteers. What are some of the techniques that you can [01:08:00] draw people to become volunteers and kind of keep them and things that they can do? What? Um, one of the things that I've learned is that the that the volunteer, the group of volunteers who will actually get stuck in on the ground. Um, it's actually quite a small group of people. And it tends to be the same group of people, Um, from year to year and from event to event. And so you do learn who, who these people are, and [01:08:30] you learn, Um, what specific ones of them are better at than others? Um, there are some people that are amazing. Charitable collectors give them a bucket and they will go out there and they will fill it and they will have a great time doing it, and they'll be incredible. There are other people that are completely useless in that area. Um, so really, it's we're trying to figure out how to make best use of that resource, and, [01:09:00] um, also being aware that it is a finite resource. It's not infinite. And how do you keep them coming back? Treat them well. I mean, they're volunteering their time to you and, um, thank them. Um, thank them personally. Thank them publicly. Um, give them acknowledgement for I mean, often they don't get any acknowledgment whatsoever, and that's really, really sad. And, [01:09:30] um and they're the same people that come back time after time after time. And it's often it's the simplest little personal thank you that will actually make the biggest difference. Just wrapping up now. And I'm wondering if you can kind of maybe synthesise what we've been talking about for the last hour, um, into, uh, a kind of a bullet list of things that you would pass on to somebody just starting to do an event. You know what would be the key bullets [01:10:00] that you would kind of give them? Why do you want to do this? event. Who is this event for? Um What what's the audience? Um, Why do you specifically and why do the people that you're working with want to want to work on this event? Um, does the budget work? Are the numbers realistic? Um, those would be, I guess those are, and and artistically, what are you trying [01:10:30] to achieve? You know, this is one thing that I'd have to say. The level of artistry and queer events in New Zealand, Um, has been on the decline for a long period of time. Um, what are you trying to achieve artistically? What are you trying to communicate? And are you working with the very best people in their field? The very best dancers, the very best singers, the very best performers. [01:11:00] Um, are you giving them a platform that is worthy of their talent? And, um, yeah, those are the sorts of things that I would think about first and foremost.
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