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I call on government. Order the day Number two conversion practises Prohibition legislation Bill, first reading the Honourable Chris. Mr. Speaker I legislative statement on the conversion practises Prohibition legislation. Bill, uh, that legislative statement is published. Uh, under the authority of the house can be found on the parliamentary website, and I will inform the house that no member has approached me, uh, indicating their preference for a personal vote. Honourable Chris. Mr. Speaker. Mr. [00:00:30] Speaker, I move that the conversion and practises prohibition legislation Bill, be now, read a first time, and I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill. Mr. Speaker, it is with great pride that I stand here to start the debate, Uh, on the conversion practises pro legislation bill, Uh, it gives effect to a Labour Party manifesto commitment at the last election, and I want to begin by acknowledging the LGBT Q I plus community, [00:01:00] uh, our own, uh, Rainbow Caucus, uh, Rainbow members of this parliament, uh, Rainbow labour, Uh, and also our young labour rainbow members who took a petition to parliament, I believe in 2018 as well as the young greens who were there also, uh, presenting that petition I was getting there. Mr. Speaker, um, if you look at, uh, clause three, Madam Speaker, if you look at Clause three of the bill, the purpose of this act is to prevent harm [00:01:30] caused by conversion practises and to promote respectful and open discussions regarding sexuality and gender. Uh, and it goes to a very fundamental right, uh, that we believe all New Zealanders have, uh, to decide who they are or to explore, uh, who they are. And it's been very clear over a long period of time that, uh, the gay community, uh and, [00:02:00] uh, those who are exploring their gender identity have suffered extreme harm, uh, at attempts to try and change their sexuality, uh, or their gender identity. That harm has manifested itself in mental health issues. Uh, relationship issues, uh, in some cases, uh, long term mental health issues. Uh, and in some unfortunately cases, uh, suicide attempts and suicide [00:02:30] itself. Madam Speaker, we want to make a very firm statement that conversion practises do not work. They cause harm for people who are going through the process of being who they are. And that is why this piece of legislation, uh, is before this house the kinds of conversion practises that we've seen, uh, historically. And we've heard from the engagement, uh, with [00:03:00] the community, have been, at the extreme end, the likes of electro convulsive therapy. Uh, and now they more commonly include the likes of practises claiming to be counselling or talk therapy and some faith based practises involving prayer, fasting and exorcism. Mr. Speaker, I know there will be a a debate during, uh, around the issues around re re religious groups in this, uh, first reading. And I want to acknowledge [00:03:30] the, uh, church leaders that we met last week, Uh, via Zoom, uh, who we gave an indication of the direction of this bill. They said to us that they that that on, uh uh by by and large, that they support the banning of conversion therapies. Um, but had some questions, uh, about the religious freedoms that they enjoy. And I hope since the time that we have spoken to them, uh, and them seeing the bill that they have seen that we have put in protections for the expression [00:04:00] of their religious principles and beliefs. Uh, and that is, uh, another important uh, protection of rights that we want to make sure that, uh is, uh, in this bill. Uh, Madam Speaker, I think everyone in this house, uh, has a story about someone that they know or love, Uh, who has had a difficult time, Uh, in coming out. I certainly have one of those. And, my friend, who I'm not gonna go into too much detail about came [00:04:30] out quite late in his life. Uh, and I cannot imagine some of the difficulties that people like him. Uh uh, him and others have gone through, uh, to be who they are. Uh, and this is why I think this is such a an important piece of legislation, uh, for the LGBTI Q community to make sure that they have that right. Uh uh. Protected, Uh, and that again, uh, we prevent the harm that [00:05:00] is caused in those communities. Uh, can I also acknowledge my colleague Maya Lube, uh, for the work that she has done, uh, in the previous parliament, uh, to, uh, put forward a member's bill on this issue. I'm sure she's very pleased, Uh, that we have got this to the stage, uh, to have this first reading. I know she will talk about, uh, a lady called Amanda Ashley, Uh, who was one of the, uh, champions of making sure that this kind of legislation, [00:05:30] uh, came through this house? Madam Speaker, Uh, in terms of a conversion practise itself as it is, uh, defined in the bill, it has to be targeted at someone because of their sexual orientation or their gender identity or gender expression. And it has to have the intent of changing or suppressing that gender identity or sexual orientation again. Uh uh. And, uh, depending on the circumstances, it has to be shown that there is harm or serious harm. Uh, then the police will do [00:06:00] what they normally do and gather an evidentiary base to make sure that they may have a case, uh, to a A against a person that may undertake a conversion practise. Then, Mr Madam Speaker, there is another protection in this bill for any court. Uh, any matter to go to court of the consent of the Attorney General to for a court case to proceed? Madam Speaker, we have deliberately, uh, [00:06:30] a, um designed this piece of legislation to make sure that it is only the serious cases that will ever make their way to a court, a court room. And there are also civil protections, uh, civil provisions within this bill, uh, to make sure that any issues, uh, that are not considered serious or criminal will be taken through the Human Rights Commission. Uh, and there are remedies there as well. Madam Speaker, uh, again, I would stress, uh, the [00:07:00] purpose of this bill, it is to prevent harm and to make sure we are encouraging those respectful and open discussions about people's sexual orientation. Uh, and, uh, their gender identity. Madam Speaker. At the announcement last week, we also said that we will take the select committee very seriously. We will watch those submissions. We will watch the submissions that, uh, and the tone of the submissions that are made by other political parties. Uh, and we will make this bill better [00:07:30] if we think we can. But the fundamental purpose of this bill, Madam Speaker, is to make sure we are preventing harm. Uh, in our community, when people are having their fundamental right of being who they are or exploring who they are, uh is being impacted again. uh, the the mental health impacts Long lasting mental health impacts, uh, have for far too long plagued our Rainbow community and Madam Speaker. It is well timed that these conversion practises [00:08:00] were banned speaker. I call on the Honourable Simon Bridges be speaker. National supports the core intention of the store. People should be free to be who they want to be and love who they want to. Love is one major sticking point, however, which means that although we want to be supportive, we are opposing this law until it is amended. It's [00:08:30] very clear in Chris interview on news talks. He'd be with yen and any plain reading of this bill that good parenting will be criminalised facing up to five years. It's exactly what it says up to five years imprisonment for being parents to Children under 18 [00:09:00] and the members opposite yell at me. But that's what Chris said on newstalk ZB, and it's wrong. Parents should be allowed to be parents and to explore sexuality and gender with their Children. But under this law, if a mom tells her 12 year old son or daughter before you go on puberty, blockers or other [00:09:30] hormone treatment. Wait till you're 18, that mom will be breaking the law. National believes there must be an exemption for parents. They're very angry on the other side, but I just want to address them quite clearly. The definition in Clause five is incredibly broad, and there is nowhere in this bill any exemption [00:10:00] for parents. It's important to note that this law is broaden the sexual orientation. It also covers gender identity and expression. This latter area is more complex than the former. It can involve medical interventions, blockers, hormones, surgery. These treatments are innovative and experimental. They are involve long term risks and consequences. And [00:10:30] in other countries and in other countries, there are growing numbers of young people who've become adults and regretted transitioning and seek to transition with mixed success. Do we really want the government intervening with the criminal law, five years in prison and conversations [00:11:00] and decisions about medical treatment and well-being that parents have and make with their Children? I don't think so, and I don't think actually the majority of Kiwi parents do, either. This bill lacks common sense. It's an ideological overreach. There must be an exemption for parents. I'm influence There are a lot [00:11:30] of in interjections in this house. May I remind members that they can take a call, and when they make their own call, they can express their views. I would like to hear this speech whether or not you agree with it. Please, can we have water in this house? Madam Speaker. I'm influenced by a signature case from a full bench. Three judges of the High Court of England and Wales of Kra Bell and the Tavistock Clinic that came out in December of last year. And I acknowledge [00:12:00] it's under appeal in the UK will be it. It is the current law of the land and that much more significant in terms of population a nation. It involved Kira Bell, 23 who wanted to transition female to male. Ms. Bell, age 16, went to the clinic and was quickly prescribed puberty, blockers and testosterone, and at 20 he had a double mastectomy. She's since, however, begun Det transitioning and says quote, it [00:12:30] was heartbreaking to realise I'd gone down the wrong path. I appreciate there will be many other experiences that are different to that, but that was hers. The other claimant in the court case was a Mrs a mother of 15 year old autistic girl awaiting treatment at the clinic, she said, Quote, my fear is not that she's transitioning. I say she gets it wrong, the mother said. It was quite frightening. There was so little exploration of why a child might be feeling [00:13:00] they were the wrong sex before puberty, blockers were given and the mum were representative claimants, arguing the clinic should have challenged the girls more over their decisions to transition to a male as teens, something very much against the spirit and the letter of the law, which is so called affirmation only rather than allowing genuine exploration, court held, [00:13:30] the court held, There are long term risks and consequences from the administration of puberty blockers, and the clinical intervention is being made and quote. Given that the treatment is as yet innovative and experimental, we recognise that clinicians may well regard these as cases with the authorization of the court should be sought. Prior to commencing the clinical treatment, the court decided under THIRTEENS were quite highly unlikely [00:14:00] to be able to consent to blockers at age 14 and 15, it was quote still doubtful and at 16 17, the courts should still decide. Yet under this law, in New Zealand's much smaller jurisdiction, it will be a criminal offence for parents to raise any concerns they'll only be able to affirm. And that is wrong. And I say, under the constant barracking from Grant Robertson that his government, [00:14:30] tragically in this term without the blockage of Mr Peters, New Zealand First Party, has done a fine line of coming to this house and saying one thing. That's motherhood and apple pie. And I accept the intent of this bill. But actually in the letter of the law, it does something quite different. I intend writing to Chris, but excuse me, far forward shortly. Give him the good [00:15:00] intention of this bill. National wants to work with him so we can support it. But regrettably, we cannot in good conscience while it criminalises parents for being parents while it intervenes in families with the criminal law over conversations and decisions about medical treatment that should be for them. We are opposing this bill until Chris [00:15:30] does the right thing. I call on honourable Doctor Ay, thank you, Madam Speaker. It is with great pride that I rise to take this call on this government bill to ban conversion therapy 35 years since ran Wild's Homosexual Law reform bill passed in 1986 17 years since the Labour government supported the civil unions bill into law in 2004, [00:16:00] eight years since my colleague Louisa Wall's Marriage Equality Amendment Bill passed in 2013 and today, this bill began its life as a member's bill my bill. But today it is here as a government bill because this Labour government is committed to creating a more inclusive and accepting New Zealand and being the best place in the world to be a child. [00:16:30] Conversion therapy is harmful to mental health. We know that the Rainbow community experiences worse. Mental health. University of Auckland research shows that same or multiple sex attracted people have higher rates of depressive symptoms, self harm and suicide attempts. The counting ourselves survey documents worse mental health for trans people living in aotearoa. Behind those statistics, [00:17:00] I think of the many friends that I know who have had those experiences. The friend who buried his boyfriend when he was in his thirties, the girlfriends who bounced in and out of mental health wards. People subjected to conversion therapy have worse mental health outcomes. A paper in the American Journal of Public Health suggests twice the odds of experiencing suicidal ideation 75% higher risk [00:17:30] of planning a suicide attempt. Not long ago, on July the eighth, we came together in this house to debate the 00 suicide. Members on both sides of the house were united in their concern about suicide. Just a month ago, we heard from the opposite act. We heard from the opposition about how concerned they were about these issues and here with an opportunity to [00:18:00] do something about it. They are voting against a very practical measure that would make a difference to many New Zealanders. I listened to Mr Bridges comments. He didn't really talk about conversion therapy at all. I will talk about conversion therapy. I don't want to talk about the mental health consequences of conversion therapy anymore because it seems to me to miss the point. The point [00:18:30] of, uh, the problem with conversion therapy is just how awful. The practise itself is all people that particularly young people want to belong. Young people are forming their identity. Naturally, they want to be accepted. Conversion therapy is about trying to erase someone's identity. It is about saying that part [00:19:00] of you is defective and we want to root it out. Conversion therapy is coercive because behind conversion therapy is a threat of exclusion. This part of you is wrong and you don't belong. If we did this to a prisoner, we would call it abuse or torture. It is a threat of being banished, of being cast out of society. Lots [00:19:30] of people complain about being cancelled over trivial matters and disagreements. But conversion therapy is actually cancelling someone. Imagine being the young person in that position. It must be traumatic, and it is totally unjustifiable. Does anyone in this House think conversion therapy is a good idea? A lot of members opposite can't look up right now. Does [00:20:00] anyone think it's a good idea? If it's not a good idea, then you, uh, the opposition has the opportunity to support this bill, uh, to select committee to address their technical objections. But they chose not to take that to fear manger about parts or about items that are not at all in the bill conversion therapy is a sick and bizarre practise, and what is unbelievable [00:20:30] is that these practises are called therapy. What a misappropriation of the word therapy it causes hurt, not healing. To believe conversion therapy is therapy. You have to believe that being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender is a disease. It is something wrong in need of fixing. And the charlatans that engage in this practise use the language of medicine [00:21:00] to bolster their false authority. That's why it's so important that medical, psychiatric and psychological authorities around the world have condemned the practise. I wonder what Doctor Reti thinks. I wonder what mental health advocate Matt Dose thinks the rainbow community has long fought homophobia. We have done this by asserting our rights [00:21:30] by being visible. The primary way we do this is with pride. By being proud and refusing to be ashamed. The Rainbow Community has progressed progressive law reform in New Zealand to ensure that our rights are upheld and the Rainbow community has called for this bill to be passed Today. I am very proud to be a member of New Zealand's Rainbow community, and I am proud to be a labour MP supporting [00:22:00] this bill. All our young people should grow up with a sense of pride in themselves. Conversion therapy is monstrous. It is not therapy. It is hate. Madam Speaker, I can, uh, commend this bill to the house. Yeah, so I call [00:22:30] on Honourable Louise Upton. Thank you, Madam Speaker. It's probably about 95% of what, um, the former speaker said that I completely agree with and I think one of the challenges when we are in Parliament we are actually debating what is in the bill as opposed to what the intent of the original bill was. And I think that's a big part of, um, the frustration for the national Party because absolutely, [00:23:00] we condemn conversion therapy. We condemn abusive practises that prevent someone from being who they are and from loving who they choose to love. And I want to make it very clear that the National Party wants to support the bill. But the issue that was raised [00:23:30] and that the Minister has not been able to answer is the question of the prosecution of parents. So that was asked of the Minister. And he hasn't been able to answer that simple question. So So the reality is for the National Party. We absolutely support the intent of it. But to be responsible parliamentarians we must look at what does the bill actually [00:24:00] say and do so we implore. We implore the government to fix the problem. We implore the government to fix the problem and not create new ones. Our primary concern is the exposure of parents to prosecution. [00:24:30] And I would have thought members opposite would also be concerned about that about that concern. And that's why we have very clearly and simply asked for, uh, an exemption for parents. And I'm I'm really hopeful, uh, that during the select committee process that the members opposite you know, and and and I take the minister's point he he he extended the branch, uh, to listen to what opposition [00:25:00] parties were contributing to take them on board to consider them. Because II I can speak very confidently and that the National Party wants to have a bill that we can support. We want to have a bill that can be unanimous, unanimously passed through this parliament and the sticking point. This I just the sticking point is about parents, [00:25:30] so let's just explore this a bit further because in listening to family members to to listening to family members listening to young people, uh, listening to those who have been through the very sorts of things that the previous speaker expressed, I think it's really important that we consider that [00:26:00] and you consider the sensitive years before the age of 18, when it's challenging for any young New Zealander anyway, add to that add to that sexual orientation or gender identity. And I want people to consider young people doing that in complete isolation of their family. [00:26:30] And I think that would be a derogation of responsibility for us to in any way, shape or form, create a path that young people would do that on their own. Or parents would feel concerned about what they might say or what they might do, and that that might lead to a criminal prosecution. [00:27:00] So, you know, we've we've asked the question. The minister hasn't been able to clearly state that parents Well, yeah, I'm asking. This is this is a government bill. This is the Minister. The question has been asked, and that's not that's not how we see it. So there is no exemption? No, this is not about politics. This is absolutely not. Do not do not put words in my mouth. [00:27:30] So experts Madam Speaker say that research shows that how parents respond can be fundamental to their Children's mental health and well-being now and in the future. We want parents to lean in at this time in a young person's life and not and not lean out. So don't I implore the government [00:28:00] to consider a parental exemption so that no parent and no young person is in a situation where they are concerned about this type of engagement? We want to have open conversations with our teenagers. We want to walk alongside them. We want to offer advice. In many instances, they won't take that advice, and that's fine. But we are talking here about medical procedures. Are you seriously saying, [00:28:30] as a parent, when a young person under the age of 18 is considering a medical procedure that you as a parent, you as a parent, shouldn't engage, support, provide advice, get external advice? Obviously not so that so? The Labour government members are basically saying the state should have more say over your family than parents? That's exactly it, that is the crux of it. [00:29:00] So make the parental exemption. Make the parental exemption because this is, well, that's the minister hasn't said that explicitly. That's not the the expectation of what's in the bill. And that's what we want to see explicit explicitly as a parental exemption so young people should be able to seek advice. Young people should be able to seek advice of their families as well as others, and we don't want [00:29:30] them excluded or criminalised, which is completely what is in the bill. As written. It's a complete deviation was originally considered, and I invite the member to come back to the bill. I'm on the bill. So as the minister said, Yeah, they they they clearly don't care. They clearly don't care about parents. Um, because that's at the crux of this issue. We're talking about young people [00:30:00] 18 and under and medical procedures that this bill does not protect. So that is our concern. We're happy to draw a line in the sand on that issue and that issue alone and I will say again, I'll say again So there is no shadow of doubt. National wants to support this bill. We are poor conversion therapy and anything that harms [00:30:30] or abuses or creates issues for any New Zealander to choose who they are to be who they are and to love who they choose. So that's our contribution. I'd like to think that the other side's listening. They're clearly not. I'd like to see when the bill progresses that there is clarity and a parental exemption because no young person and no parent should have this hanging over them. IS leave [00:31:00] of the house, Madam Speaker to table a document I seek leave of the house to table the document The conversion practises Prohibition Legislation Bill because it appears the opposition has not read it. I seek leave of the house that that document be tabled, not a point of order. That's not a point of order. Are you seeking a point of order? That's a public document. [00:31:30] Next point of order. Nicole McKee. I'm finding it extremely difficult to hear, and I would be appreciative of the noise, as the as Mr Speaker had been talking about during question time be kept at a level where we can all hear the contributions, please, that are being made. I absolutely agree. I would like this house to be in order. I would like the members of this house to be respectful of each other. I [00:32:00] realise that we don't always agree, especially on this bill. But can we please be respectful of each other? I call a Madam speaker. On this day in 1944 Anne Frank and her family were arrested after more than two years in their secret hiding place in Amsterdam. Now one might think, What does that have to do with this conversion practises Prohibition legislation bill? Well, the link is clear. The issues that got [00:32:30] Anne Frank and her family arrested and ultimately killed are still relevant today. We need to ensure we protect one another and particularly our against dangers of prejudice, discrimination and intimidation. Honourable Grant Robertson said this at the unveiling of the Anne Frank Memorial in June this year. Every single day we see elements of discrimination and hatred around us. We see the elements of [00:33:00] exclusion, of putting people outside and making them the other. So every single day it is our job to call that out to say this is not acceptable to strive to build the world that Anne Frank talked about a world of hope, of courage, of beauty. No Madam Speaker aotearoa New Zealand is a country that values and accepts our rainbow community without the need to be convicted [00:33:30] to subjected to any kind of conversion therapies. Because firstly, there's nothing wrong with anyone having a diverse sexual orientation or gender identity. But also the premise that somehow this can be changed is, of course, absolutely untrue. There's no scientific nor medical evidence to support the use of conversion therapies, and we heard my colleague Minister Vall, talk very eloquently on that. The practise is widely condemned as being against the code of ethics [00:34:00] ethics that's done by the medical profession and many psychological associations across the world as well as in our own country. So called conversion therapy is not only just something that doesn't work, it's actually shown to be incredibly harmful. And some of the speeches have pointed that out, trying to convert someone by making them believe that due to their sexuality or gender identity, there's something wrong with them that requires changing can cause severe adverse mental [00:34:30] health effects, claiming to be able to cure homosexuality as if it is a mental illness or some kind of behavioural problem and giving people false hope at a time when they are struggling about who they are, is harmful and can be fatal for members of the Rainbow community who are already vulnerable and five times more at risk of mental health issues and harm. What we need to really do is fate, our identity, and tell them that who they are is the right [00:35:00] thing. Everybody is free to be themselves. It brings me back to something that Carl McDonald said in one of the interviews I held about this topic, he talked about validation and how important it is. He said that one of the cornerstones of any psychotherapy is the idea that it's only through acceptance of ourselves. The bits we like and even more challenging. The bits we don't like comes through health. Now we like to celebrate our country's diversity, but we still have to work to [00:35:30] strengthen New Zealand society. And when we talk about people who've suffered, what we fail to acknowledge is that we live in a society that is infused with homophobia, so the need for love and acceptance will push anyone to try and conform to the norm. The previous speaker showed that she didn't read the bill because nothing in this bill shows that talking to your Children falls under a definition of conversion practises [00:36:00] and if you want to have it improved, supported to select committee. But not doing so will not give us an opportunity to, for example, hear the survivor stories and they will tell us the crucial things that we need to hear. There are many harrowing stories from survivors of conversion therapy, and this also includes, for example, the story of the young woman who told the story of the time her mum had suggested a little deliverance, a practise where a minister would pray over for [00:36:30] her to free her from the demon demonic forces. She said that looking back, it was clear that I was desperate to have connection and love from my parents, and I would do anything to get it. But when the demons didn't budge and she walked out feeling ashamed for who she was, how can that be healthy? How can we allow any kind of messaging that tells people that tells our there's something wrong with them and they need to be fixed. So one of the questions I hear most frequently [00:37:00] is, well, is it actually really happening in New Zealand? I first heard about conversion therapy when I watched a TV NZ Sunday documentary in 2018. The phrase in that programme was that it was surprisingly easy to find places that would offer it. And I was shocked to think that in this day and age and in this country, I tell New Zealand diversion inclusion, it would still be happening. But it was and um, for many, many messages I received that's [00:37:30] clear that others felt that way as well. From Barbara, I'm a mental health registered nurse and I was shocked to hear it's still legal in New Zealand. I've seen the damage caused to people who are told what they feel is not natural, and I have tried to change their sexuality. It can cause irreparable harm from Deborah because of its unspoken prevalence in New Zealand. I have friends who struggle to find who they where they can find physical and or mental health care without being subjected to attempts to change who they are. [00:38:00] Banning the practise would make it far easier for them to access safe healthcare. Now it was a great privilege when I was asked to accept a petition to Ben Conversion Therapy, Young Labour and young greens, together with Rodney Rainbow collected more than 20,000 signatures between them. And so I became part of the of this current bill. And here I would like as the minister, rightly for Shadow. I'd like to acknowledge Amanda Ashley, a transgender activist from Rodney Rainbow. When we first [00:38:30] met her petition had 1500 signatures. She would send me messages over the following weeks, excited that the petition got up to 2000 signatures and then 3000. And then when the petition closed three years ago to this date almost 7 August 2018, it had a total of 5157 signatures on it. She was so proud and altogether. Those signatures are on the petitions to total more than 20,000 long story short. As a result, my member's bill went into the ballot because I had the support [00:39:00] of my party for a bill that would outlaw conversion therapy, Thank you to then Justice Minister Honourable Andrew Little for the continued support on the issue. Um Labour then made part of the 2020 manifesto. And what we're doing now delivers on the on that particular commitment. Thank you to honourable Chris for shepherding this bill through the house. It's an FU to uphold the human rights of all New Zealanders to live free from discrimination and harm. So it is all started with a petition, and Amanda Ashley will be [00:39:30] remembered as an important part of this. But sadly, Amanda took her own life. In 2018. She will be remembered as a beautiful, sensitive sweetheart of a lady and a strong activist. Madam Speaker, I have been blessed to have the privilege to be part of this and to have received such a warm welcome from the rainbow community. And while I've got your attention, um, I might as well clear this up. Paul, I'm sorry for the initial initial confusion. [00:40:00] It has now been cleared up that I'm in fact not a lesbian. But that despite the fact that you know that now, thank you for not treating me any different and still accepting me for who I am. At no stage have I ever felt any discrimination for identifying as heterosexual Madam Speaker. I've met many committed advocates for rainbow issues and I want to do the following shout outs for the support they have given me. This is by no means an exhaustive list, but there are people and organisations that have given me [00:40:30] support that I've been in contact with and I've learned from. So here we go. Mitch for his relentless research and optimism. My formidable Labour Rainbow Caucus colleagues, members of Rainbow Labour, Paul Stevens, the chair members of CTE Nahan, Mel McDonald, Jim, Jerry and Ted Princes Street Labour, Rainbow youth Young, young Labour, Young greens, Young Nets outline a McArdle Inner city ST Peters on Willis Inside [00:41:00] out There are many more other champions for the rainbow community, too many to mention, but one shout out to Diane Sparks in or advocating for the rights of the Rainbow community. I want to finish with a message from a survivor because survivor stories are crucial to actually try and get a glimpse of what harm intolerance, exclusion, discrimination and prejudice can do to a person. I always knew my sexuality was a problem, but when you see your entire community chanting hate, that's terrifying [00:41:30] spiritual abuse causes trauma and trauma doesn't always go away. When people say sorry, many people don't make it through conversion therapy. It's not an unusual story. Conversion practises simply have no place in our country. But we currently have no legislation. That makes it an offence. Let's show the compassion and inclusiveness that are in line with New Zealand's values. It this bill sends a clear message We won't stand by and allow this behaviour to continue. It says we love you. [00:42:00] We accept you for who you are, and we will do everything in our power to protect you. I commend this bill to the house, so yeah, I call on Doctor Elizabeth. It is with great pleasure. [00:42:30] I stand to speak on behalf of the Green Party on this. Um, uh, also, they acknowledge the staff here, the staff of the ministry and the Human Rights Commission who have all worked so hard to make this happen. And, of course, all of our community leaders who largely volunteer yet again are available for consultation and advice. Uh, [00:43:00] I also want to acknowledge the young greens, the young labour and young nets who I also had the opportunity to meet with through this process. In February, we launched our Maori priorities at Waitangi, and we identified rights as a treaty issue. And we did this because we understand a colonial history that brought missionaries to our country, who immediately told us our enjoyment of sex was wrong. [00:43:30] Uh, that any kind of sexual fluidity was wrong. Uh, any fluidity and gender identity was wrong, along with trying to take away all of our language, all of our land, all of our resources. They also tried to steal that story and from us. The fact that we are here today and every time that I get to use the word in this house says that all of us since then continue to honour [00:44:00] all of them. A week after Waitangi, we launched a petition at Big Gay out. We had a huge massive response from this country. Nearly 100 and 60,000 people signed the petition within a week. Many people did not know that this still existed in our country. Uh, and it was people across the political spectrum. I got letters from people [00:44:30] saying we signed your petition, but we want you to know we do not like the greens otherwise, and I just reply back, going killed her. Probably. I want to point out that that petition was the largest verified petition ever held in this country. Because on the record, the two unverified petitions are the two that were presented for the homosexual law reform. I'm very, very [00:45:00] proud that our country and this parliament is a place where we can present the real views of actual real people. The hard thing about when this topic comes up, of course, is all of the letters we received from survivors from here and from around the world who were so pleased we were doing this work in our parliament. And others have acknowledged [00:45:30] there are those who are still surviving and living amongst our communities and dealing with the harm and the emotional impact that has had on their whole life. But of course, we have lost so many, so many, even within the last few years who have felt that they could not go on in the environment of this country. And I want to reiterate in terms of if we're looking right back to colonisation. [00:46:00] This is hundreds of years of discrimination against our community. And conversion therapy is only one topic of the special ways that people have tried to harm Rainbow communities. It was the original, those original missionaries, those original churches that set up really started conversion therapy. And [00:46:30] over the years, over the decades, it's been refined to an art. However, after and years after homosexual law reform, which was led by most of the mainstream, the protest was led by most of the mainstream churches of this country. Many of those churches would now look back in horror at what was done. Some of them have apologised for their part in it and would have no truck with it. We have only to look at what are the, uh, particular types [00:47:00] of churches who are still offering this service as they like to see and think of it to see how much further we still have to go in this country. For me, an important part of this whole is it's our spirituality. It is my belief that our drive to be who we are, our sexuality, our gender is part of our our spirituality [00:47:30] that comes to us from our ancestors from our gods, the way that we experience them for. We know that our sexuality and our cultural connection is as important to us as our sexuality as our gender identity as our sex characteristics. The real issue around conversion therapies is a It's not good to tell someone that who they are is wrong ever in [00:48:00] any context. What it does, though, is it takes something else that is a part of someone their commitment to their religion, their spirituality, the way they experience that and uses that against another part of themselves. That is the thing that our mental health system currently is nowhere close to being set up to help resolve a shout out to groups like Outline, like all of the leading groups and within our [00:48:30] rainbow communities. Uh, I tens gender minorities, uh, inside out Rainbow youth, Of course. Uh, it's left to the community to try and untangle those things. Those hurts and try and give healing. Others have taught about the the many lives we have lost. We don't have exact data on conversion therapies. We know that in the county and ourselves research, [00:49:00] uh, they had some figures that were particularly for trans and non-binary people, but we don't have a true picture, and I think that somewhere along the line some funding needs to be allocated to actually doing that proper research. The main thing I want to finish on is about because the one thing I do agree with our national colleagues here is that should be able to make good decisions on behalf of their Children. Uh, [00:49:30] and so to hold up this going on inside, young people experienced they talked about their fears about talking about who they were and talking to their, They said they experienced embarrassment, fear, isolation, guilt, depression, anger and hopelessness. The themselves weren't dealing well with their child coming out or wanting to transition. They talked about also shock and embarrassment denial, a justified fear [00:50:00] for their child's safety. They had grief over the of the future they had seen for their child had disappeared. Now, an inclusive society that would be looked after they would be wrapped around with support. They would have people. Those young people could go and talk to other young people and say What is going on for them? Those could have people with good quality information that would say this is what's happening together that [00:50:30] could move forward and make decisions about whatever types of, uh, groups they might want to join, uh, ways that they could work inside their churches and places of worship. Uh, they could make make some sorts of arrangements around surgical, uh, health care, and they would do that as a They would make those decisions together with clarity, uh, based on knowing that [00:51:00] what was most important was being able to uphold the mana of who someone was and that as the parents, the of this child, this young person, this adult, even, uh that they would help make that together. That is not the world we live in. So do we want to criminalise? Of course not. Do we want to put an entire congregation who all colluded in the conversion therapy of members of the congregation? Of course not. Do we want to see put things put in place, [00:51:30] though, where people are held accountable for their actions? Absolutely, absolutely. Do people who have had this happen to them deserve some justice? Should we get more to a point where those congregations decide to learn from their mistakes that they apologise for the harm they have caused, and they beg forgiveness from their God and their communities for what they have done. We can pass this through and [00:52:00] we will. It's happening. People let us put Make sure it includes all people. This happens to I want to do a final shout out for people with disabilities. That's not just Rainbow communities, Kilda. Um, order. I call [00:52:30] Nicole McKee. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I firstly seek leave of the house to congratulate Lisa Carrington on winning a further gold medal, making her New Zealand's most successful Olympian. Yeah, Mr Speaker, I stand to speak on the conversion practises Prohibition legislation Bill and I commend the intent of the minister to stop a practise that has been so detrimental to many lives. We cannot deny some [00:53:00] of the horror stories that we've heard about conversion therapy treatments occurring both here and around the world, events that have left detrimental effects on those receiving it. Some have described it as a pseudo scientific technique attempting to change or suppress someone through shaming emotional manipulation or through physical trauma. We have heard in this house, in the media and through [00:53:30] accounts of those with lived experience how their psychological, social, emotional and often spiritual needs have been destroyed by conversion therapy. The LGBT Q i community speak of the harm some of the practises cause and the suicidal thoughts that often follow, along with the ongoing mental health issues that can result from conversion therapy. [00:54:00] I note also that the Salvation Army state that they do not support conversion therapy and have released a guideline for salvation on the topic. They have recommended a list of practical responses, one of which says, and I quote in response to the question, then what do I do if someone wrestling with their sexual identity wants prayer? Salvation is are encouraged to help people explore their identity, for instance, by praying that [00:54:30] God will affirm their authentic identity and speak into their search for who they were made to be, or by pastorally exploring what it is that has led them to conclude that they may need to change. Salvation will not pray for a specific outcome with regard to someone's sexuality. So on the face of it and with what we believe to be an understanding of the intent of the bill, we want to support this and [00:55:00] we will do so through the first reading. You see one of Act Party's first principles is that all people should be owners of their own lives that we must be free to act according to their own judgments, so long as they accept and respect the like freedom of others. We want adults to feel comfortable in their own skin, be respected for the choices that they make about themselves [00:55:30] and not experience harm because others don't agree with those choices. However, we do have some major concerns about some of the causes in this bill, and unless we can get some clarity around raised issues at the select committee, we simply could not continue to support it. We have concerns around the effect the bill may have on families and the discussions [00:56:00] that would often occur in the home. When a young family initiates or raises the topic of their sexuality, identity or gender choice, Could a parent's initial reaction when not physically harmful, actually cause the parent to be prosecuted if they're not supportive of the child? The minister has said it's not cool with parents being prosecuted for preventing their child from taking hormone blockers, but without clarity in [00:56:30] the bill. The scenario can most certainly happen without clarity. Mr Speaker. We are left with the regulatory impact statement comment, which actually states quote. It would be a criminal offence for parents or other members of a family to attempt to change or suppress the sexual orientation, gender identity or expression of Children within the family end. Quote further to this Mr Speaker. If the family wanted to seek [00:57:00] religious guidance and they were, say, salvation, they won't get that advice. They would not even get prayer. And why is this Mr Speaker? Well, the regulatory impact statement says, And I quote conversion practises that take the form of prayer and counselling that are directed towards an individual would be captured by the preferred option. And, of course, we are now dealing with this the preferred option. We recognise [00:57:30] the accusations that some religious conversion therapies are a big part of the problem, but we need to find the line between criminal actions and the ability to converse, And the job of the Select committee will be to determine if those lines have been drawn in the right place. And at the moment, Mr Mr Speaker We don't believe that they have concerns, Mr Speaker is that the bill in its current [00:58:00] format doesn't just step on parents and religion. It actually stomps on it, and the government would be interfering and legislating what can be said in the home, how a family is to deal with an issue and removes their ability to seek religious guidance. We note that the purpose of this bill, as stated in Section three B, is to promote respectful and open discussions regarding sexuality [00:58:30] and gender and act agrees with this purpose, but believes that the interpretation of conversion practise in Section five does not achieve that purpose and, if implemented, will in fact achieve the opposite. Further to this, in Clause five, there is a statement at 52 F that expression only of a religious principle or belief that is not intended [00:59:00] to change or suppress the individual sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression would be excluded from prosecution so you can speak to the principle of a religious belief, but not if it is intended to change the mind of the individual. Yet we would argue that most religious principles and beliefs would actually speak against a change in sexual identity and therefore makes understanding what can be spoken about and [00:59:30] what cannot ambiguous. It's rather Orwellian, Mr Speaker. We believe that this bill, in its current format only allows freedom of expression to run one way, and that those that have differing views will be in fear of prosecution for expressing them. Another of acts Founding principles is based on freedom of expression in a free society. This must be promoted, [01:00:00] protected and preserved without restriction, other than for incitement, criminal nuisance or defamation. Those that seek conversion advice that question their identity should be able to do so freely. And those who whose advice has been sought should be able to give their advice just as freely. Without fear of prosecution. It simply must run both ways, [01:00:30] Mr Speaker. This then leads me to our concerns about consent. The Human Rights Act provision appears to be inconsistent with the Crimes Act prohibition, which appears to focus on causing real harm to someone and lack of consent. The Human Rights Act provision requires neither of these elements to be present. Therefore, there is a question as to whether someone is freely consenting and should they be able to engage in such a practise. [01:01:00] Mr. Speaker at most certainly believes that there are some conversion therapy practise practises that must absolutely be stopped, and we wholeheartedly support this government in this. However, with such a wide scope around the interpretation of conversion practise, interfering with families and religion with confusion around civil liberties versus criminal conduct, freedom of expression only [01:01:30] allowed one way. One might think that the thought police are only but one legislative instrument away. The Act Party supports this bill through its final through its first reading, Mr Speaker, and we hope that through the select committee process, the concerns we have raised can be satisfactorily addressed. Therefore, we support this bill to select committee members. This is a split call I call five minutes, [01:02:00] [01:02:30] [01:03:00] [01:03:30] you see loved and he said to I am stricken with love for my friend for the missionary, William Williams in 18 84 translated the words as an intimate companion of the same sex. Naturally, there are some back home that dispute that translation and also the nature of that relationship, too. Uh, for [01:04:00] some, it's a little bit uncomfortable that a chief from our, uh, may have just enjoyed a homosexual relationship prior to his marriage. I say if it's OK for the Greeks, it's OK for us. That said, uh, the word. Taku has become a commonly used term and it's experiencing a renaissance within the Maori rainbow community and I say rightfully so. My point, Mr Speaker, is that Maori have our own stories about [01:04:30] sexuality that predate the arrival of Europeans and the arrival of the Bible and also those who interpret it, which has done considerable damage to the rainbow community, causing considerable harm. Colonisation reached our cultural norms, reached into our cultural norms about what constituted both positive and negative relationships. And as we become more aware, we must also challenge those colonial heterosexual assumptions that have been normalised [01:05:00] around us and central to that is the assumption that if you aren't heterosexual, then there must be ways to fix you. The government's intention in this bill, which I support wholeheartedly and prohibiting conversion practises, are a to affirm the dignity of all people and that no sexual orientation or gender identity is broken and in need of fixing two. To prevent the harm conversion practises [01:05:30] cause in New Zealand and to provide an avenue for redress. Three. To uphold the human rights of all New Zealanders, including of Rainbow New Zealanders, to live free from discrimination and from harm. This bill will provide penalties to those who continue to use conversion practises and provide survivors with an with avenues for redress. But I do have a concern. The criminalization of conversion practises may just result in a change in how they're presented [01:06:00] or how they're framed, how they're performed the way that practises are described may become more subtle, for example, through references to exploring sexuality rather than changing it and on spiritual healing and development. Conversion practises have had very low public visibility now, so the prohibition will have little effect in that regard. But it is important to remember, uh, that, however conversion practises are presented, survivors will now have recourse to the laws to lay complaints, [01:06:30] both criminal and civil. In my twenties, I wasn't able to get married. The civil unions bill came in and made things a little more normal. In my thirties, I was able to finally get married in, uh, again, the law changed, uh, thank you to my colleague on my left in my forties. I hope to oversee the banning of conversion therapy and hope for considerably better conditions for rainbow couples wanting to embark on parenthood. I look forward to being part of that change. [01:07:00] Um, I call or, as would say, I am proud to be, uh, I have some evidence from the United States about how damaging, uh, conversion therapy conversion practises are so of the young people who experience conversion therapy [01:07:30] who attempted suicide in 2020 28% of the young people who went through conversion therapy, experience, suicide, no experience of conversion therapy, 12%. So it's harmful. I want us to be really clear about what conversion therapy is. Con conversion therapy, uh, started in 18 99 by a German psych, uh, psychiatrist. I won't go into his name, but essentially, uh, the proposition [01:08:00] at that time was that being gay was a disease, and it must be cured. And what they did, or what he purported to do is turn gay straight by hypnosis and also trips to the brothel. Why? Because at that time, we were seen as sinful as deviant as criminals. Uh, and so obviously that religious overlay uh, in our lives, without clear scientific evidence was the prevailing doctrine, which is why it was called [01:08:30] a therapy in the 19 twenties. They actually performed test testicle transplants to remove testicles from gay men and give them I mean, it is torture. Absolutely. Uh, the majority again said of clinicians said being gay was a disease so we could experience electroconvulsive therapy, lobotomies, shock treatment, porn and brothels. Uh, and, uh, later, uh, it became a version [01:09:00] therapy where homosexual men, uh, had to watch porn and the shock therapy was through their penises. Because if you, uh, were disgusted by homosexuality, then obviously you would be cured and you would lead a normal life. In 1973. This all changed with the American Psychiatric Association who deemed conversion practises as harmful, and there was no scientific evidence [01:09:30] that they worked. So the reality of today these practises are still happening. Except they happen in camps, Christian camps. Uh, they happen through prayer vigils. They happen through talk therapy. They happen through exorcisms. Uh, and for women, they include corrective rape. That is what conversion therapy is, which is why we want to ban it. It's apparent it's disgusting. [01:10:00] It's a relic of of, uh, historical, uh, positioning about LGBTI, Q plus peoples Somehow being wrong, we are not wrong. We are born exactly as we're meant to be and we deserve the protection of the state. There were what conversion therapy is not. And I want to reference the Royal, Australasian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists. They actually have a position statement on, uh, sexual orientation [01:10:30] change efforts. They do not support the use of sexual orientation. Orientation change efforts of any kind. There is no scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed. Sexual orientation change efforts risk causing significant harm to individuals. What they're really clear about, however, is that sexual orientation change efforts does not refer to those undergoing gender affirmation, therapy or management. [01:11:00] And herein lies the relevance to Section 52 B of this piece of legislation which says conversion practise does not include assisting an individual who is undergoing or considering undergoing a gender transition. So people who are worried about parents being criminalised because they stop their Children from receiving hormones that are prescribed by a clinician get real. It's not a real conversation. [01:11:30] It's misinformation and trying to create in the public panic that parents are gonna be criminalised. And I think it's an absolutely apparent position for anybody to take on this piece of legislation because, uh, at the heart of this is our Children and them knowing that they are perfect as they are, that they are loved and that we as a society will value them and not let any harm [01:12:00] happen to them in their exploration and their expression of who they are. I seriously say to the national Party, you are on the wrong side of history. This is bigger. Um, order, Uh, this is a split call order, please. Um can I just say to the members and, uh, people in the gallery, Uh, this is a debate for members [01:12:30] of the chamber. Uh, and we have members waiting to seek their call. And it's, um you know, II, I can understand a little bit of applause, but that's going on too long. You might have that opportunity at the end. I call Chris pen. Thank you, Mr Speaker, For the opportunity to speak to the conversion practises Prohibition legislation Bill. Um, so, uh, national speakers have already stated I think pretty clearly that we support the core original intent of the bill. Uh, namely that, uh, uh, practises [01:13:00] that are unwanted, uh, or coercive in their nature, Uh, and particularly with an element of physicality practises that we support and therefore in terms of the bill, uh, if the, uh if the issues that we've raised so far in which I just want to detail a bit further and this contribution can be addressed and we'll be pleased to be in a position we will be able to support the bill. So, um, that national position, sir, uh, uh relates to a couple of, uh, key, [01:13:30] uh, points, uh, one of which, uh, is in relation to, uh, the role of parents. Or more generally, of course, it's important to acknowledge, uh, different family arrangements that are possible indeed. Do prevail in, uh, a New Zealand, uh, in 2021. So in the, um, the the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act uh, advice to the Attorney General as tabled along with the bill. Uh, it does note, um, the, uh the fact that there is a possibility [01:14:00] of a Or rather, I might as well quote directly, sir. uh, quote potential chilling effect on legitimate expressions of opinion within families, uh, about sexuality and gender. End quote. So I think it's probably fair if I do acknowledge that that is under the heading in the view of the, uh, the officials who have provided the advice of justified limitation. And they do believe that there is a measure of consistency with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Uh, for, uh, a few key reasons. Um, [01:14:30] I would, uh, potentially disagree with at least one of those, but, um, in the time available to me, so So I'll, um, not not dwell on that aspect, but I think it's a fair point. Uh, that the chilling effect, uh, is, uh, to be considered seriously, uh, alongside, uh, what is, uh, in the bill and what might be subject to interpretation by some members of the house, uh, differently from others. And, uh, by, you know, for example, individual, uh, police constables and so on Who might be asked to, uh, give a view In any individual case, Uh, the other one [01:15:00] is in relation to, uh, the fact that it's not possible to consent, uh, to, uh, these uh uh or or things that might be considered within the definition of practises. Uh, clause 10 of the bill is very clear in that regard, sir. Uh, it says that the practises, uh, specified it or other offences that, uh, clauses eight and nine. do not enjoy a defence, even if the individual who was receiving, uh, those practises consented to them. Obviously, the [01:15:30] concept of consent is pretty, uh, complex under the law. And I do acknowledge that, uh, consent that is seemingly given. But if subject to coercion or undue influence, uh, is is, uh, not real consent in itself. So again to do acknowledge the complexity of this not only as a theoretical matter and a matter of law but, of course, on the ground, uh, in in a person's home, for example, or any other context for that matter. So with those points having [01:16:00] been made, sir, and noting as well the, uh, point also made under the heading of freedom of expression and the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet again, the document to which I previously referred, uh, the, uh, document notes, uh, the potential for the broad definition of the practise, uh, to extend further beyond what they currently consider on their interpretation, uh, to be, uh, within the realm of justified limitation. So I think these are matters that, uh, can and should be [01:16:30] examined at the select committee process. And, of course, much has been said in this house, sir, about the fact that different parties in this parliament will have the opportunity to state their views in that process. But I think, more importantly, people, uh, throughout New Zealand who have been affected in different ways, uh, will have different views. Inevitably, uh, on the legislation will have the opportunity at that point. So, uh, that debate is to be welcomed. It's not to be shied away from. And I think that, um, all members of parliament, uh, should feel obliged to listen carefully to those, uh, comments [01:17:00] and the evidence that the select committee will hear. So, uh, my final comment, sir, uh, before the end of the allocated time is just in relation to the rule of law. More generally, of course, it's an aspect of our, uh, legal arrangements, and particularly where criminal justice is concerned. Particularly where, uh, we are saying that, uh a person must act in a certain way or not act in a certain way and the pain of imprisonment by the state, Uh, that it should be as clear as possible. Uh, that's an aspect of, uh, the bargain that struck [01:17:30] between the state and the citizen, whereby the citizen has to comply with laws. Uh, but the state is obliged to state clearly what they are. Uh, it seems to me that there is, uh, a considerable uncertainty in some of these aspects. And I think, with all due respect, we've seen that from, uh, the minister of, uh, justice when asked about key aspects, uh, in relation to the bill. So we look forward to hopefully, um, um I'm going to be on the right side of history [01:18:00] in this debate, and I will not wait for a valedictory speech to apologise to the rest of New Zealand. It is probably not often that politicians get up and admit in this house and freely that there is stuff they don't know. But I'm going to do that today. I have a lot of I have a lot to learn from our community as a straight man. Their experience is not my experience. It would be wrong to pretend that it is. [01:18:30] What I do know and they have always known is that end of story. No ifs, No buts. No, ma. I'm on a journey to deepen my understanding so I can support all of our as a political representative of and in this place our people always celebrated our diversity as they are Maori. [01:19:00] We each come with our own, our own upbringings and our own identities. But at the end of the day, we are all it was colonisation and the imposition of European ideas around gender and sexuality that started criminalising and oppressing people for being who they are turning us against our own. My language tells me this our language is non-binary. [01:19:30] We need to decolonize ourselves. And maybe we should put some kind of therapy law to start decolonizing ourselves and reaffirm the of our conversion Therapy is a direct attack on our that fails [01:20:00] to uphold our to be who we are and does not meet our aspirations of mana equality for all people. We will always support to be who they are and conversion therapy which tries to stop for being who they are has no place in a might be in New Zealand, but not a the party Maori wholeheartedly support and welcome this much needed overdue bill [01:20:30] in 2020 E our 2020 election campaign we committed in our policy manifesto to banning conversion therapy. We are the movement that leaves no one behind. But just as I recognise, I need to learn more. So do so do so does my So does our party? We humbly ask and to support us on this journey. I want to acknowledge the government for bringing forward this bill, but more importantly, [01:21:00] the leaders, advocates and allies of the Takata community who have pushed for so long to see this legislation of this kind before the house. Today is your day. I strongly believe that banning conversion therapy is a necessary step to addressing the larger issue of the dire state of our mental health system in a we know that young Maori Tata are one of the most at risk groups of mental illness, [01:21:30] self harm and suicide. Many of our mental health services are rooted in harmful colonial values that hurt our people, especially we oppose all of these backward colonial practises and ideas and laws and practises which cause our to feel shame and guilt for being who they are. We are looking forward to to to consider to consideration of this bill at select Committee, and I encourage [01:22:00] our community to make submissions and ensure your voices are heard in the process. It's important we make sure the wording of the legislation is right and the provisions are strong enough to keep our people safe. The successful passage of this bill through the house will put us one step closer to an where all of us feel empowered and liberated to be who [01:22:30] we truly are. As a minister of the Ring Church, I leave you with these three lines honour and glory to God, peace on Earth and goodwill to all mankind. Speaker I, Glenn Bennett, Mr Speaker, our grandmother God, creator of all things, [01:23:00] the lover of seekers and dreamers of the disrespected and the disillusioned of the worn out, burnt out, washed up lovers of the rejected the leavers and the grievers lovers of the Queens and the divas of the transgender gays and lesbians of the Intersect Non-binary and of our fabulous rainbow community in our moments of marginalisation, isolation and bigotry grant us the ability to act boldly along the road [01:23:30] to human liberation. Our gender, sexual orientation and faith beliefs do not define us. May our roads be one of freedom. Christ is freedom. May we know wholeness know our bodies and know you a Now I rise this afternoon as someone who is from the church [01:24:00] and as someone who is from the Rainbow community. And there have been moments in my upbringing in my life where I felt rejected from both of them. But today I stand here feeling affirmed, knowing I have a faith community behind me that loves, affirms and supports me. Now for many of us listening for many of us here today, we're not talking about theory. We're not talking about legislation. We're not [01:24:30] talking about an issue. I am not an issue. I am not in a shoe. I'm fabulous. I want to thank our Labour Party and our government on delivering on this manifesto. Promise? I want to thank our minister. I want to thank my lube and the work you've done. I want to thank our transgender and intersex who often feel left out of these conversations. [01:25:00] Thank you for being patient with us, this gay males and I want to thank all those who have gone before us both living and passed on now in my lifetime, a lot has happened. My two year old self back in 1977 was when finally the World Health Organisation chose [01:25:30] to declassify homosexuality and take it out of the international classifications of diseases. I was two in that same period here in New Zealand. My issue was seen as a mild form of schizophrenia. My nine year old self saw homosexual law reform pass in this house in this place. And I was part of a church [01:26:00] that was not affirming at that time. And I thank the member of act for talking about the Salvation Army who came out last week in support of this piece of legislation, which makes me so proud. My 18 year old self. Yeah, I you're figuring out how old I am now. I'm sure back in 1993 was when discrimination was banned. The discrimination sorry of sexual and gender expression was banned, and then my 29 year old self in 2004 saw in this house to see civil unions [01:26:30] passed. Then my 37 year old self back in 2013, saw Thank you, Lewis the wall and those for seeing marriage. Equality pass in this house. And I am so disappointed today to hear the the honourable Simon Bridges, the honourable Louise Upton, who both voted against marriage equality, standing up here, telling me that I'm still an issue and I'm still a problem. Where are the liberals from the National Party? Where is the support from the National Party? [01:27:00] Where is the leader of the National Party? Who said I might add that she opposes conversion therapy? I'm a parent, and I have to say to my son, and I hope other parents would also say this. Just be who you are. That's unconditional love, not trying to convert your child to anything else. The honourable Judith Collins. Then in 2017, my 41 year old self [01:27:30] saw the government apologise for men who have been convicted from from past acts of homosexual offending. And then February 2021 of this year, my 45 year old self got married in this place. This place is a place and has been a place of oppression. I see this in my maiden speech, but this place also is a place of liberation. [01:28:00] And I feel liberated to be part of this parliament of this government who makes transformational change for the sake of freedom and faith. Now, for me, I'm fortunate. I I didn't get too pressured into having conversion therapy when I was growing up in the church. I remember being scared and afraid. I remember going to a few healing services. I remember having hands laid on me, someone trying to force me to the ground as I was relieved from my evilness. [01:28:30] But I wasn't because there was nothing to release from me. And the Psalmist says that I was fearfully and wonderfully made. I was fearfully and wonderfully made. Now, today we are talking about this piece of legislation that is around protection. It's around to make sure that people are kept safe and the unhealthy practises, uh don't occur in our nation anymore. This bill is [01:29:00] about freedom, something that I know well, growing up in the church, I learned that the truth will set me free and I thank my God and my faith that I've been set free and I was able to be the man that I am today with the husband that I have now conversion practises through emotional harm. They do physical harm, they do social harm. And as the [01:29:30] member of the Green Party and also the Maori said, they do spiritual harm. And as a Christian, it grieves me to see the harm and the hurt that my faith has caused for centuries and centuries. And I experienced that. I felt like I was broken. I felt like I needed to be fixed. I heard words like [01:30:00] abomination. I am an abomination. I think that causes disgust and loathing. I am not an abomination. My God does not believe that I'm abomination. He loves me just the way I am. And I'm grateful that I found my faith, my true faith that is loved and knows [01:30:30] that he's beautifully and wonderfully made, and I also want to say thank you to the Salvation Army for coming out strongly in support of this piece of legislation. Like I said earlier as a nine year old as my church led a petition to stop the passing of homosexual law reform a church to align themselves with MP S from this house. Who told my who told us to [01:31:00] go back to the gutters to go back to the sewers where you belong. And I'm grateful today that, uh, I am connected to a church that came out last week and said this Christians are called to be like God and therefore to be living examples of his love and action in this world. Conversion practises which have been shown to be both ineffective and [01:31:30] deeply harmful, are the antithesis of this. And then it goes on to say we're told in the scriptures to accept one another just as Christ accepted us and to be sympathetic and love one another, to be compassionate, to be humble. That is what my God says. And I'm proud to follow them. And in closing, [01:32:00] I'm gonna do a repeat of what was just said at the end of the last speech. I come from Taranaki and is a place that's special to me. And this makes complete sense because it talks about glory to God above it talks about peace on Earth, which is not just amongst the land. It's amongst the people. It's amongst your own self. And it talks about goodwill to all people. [01:32:30] Goodwill to all people, caring for our caring for those you don't understand caring for those who are different to us. And so in closing, Mr Speaker, I'll also close with those words. Thank you. [01:33:00] Um, I call Barbara. Thank you, Mr Speaker. There has been a lot of tension in the house this afternoon, Uh, in people speaking to the conversion practises Prohibition legislation bill. And that is understandable because there is no place for violent and abusive conversion therapy practises in New Zealand. And I want to say from the outset of my speech that no [01:33:30] one in the national party believes that there is a place for violent and abusive conversion therapy practises in New Zealand. Uh, we support the core intent of this bill now, just in terms of legislation. Uh, and I know there's a lot of participation from public in here today. We came to Parliament, all of us to make better legislation. Legislation [01:34:00] goes through three readings, uh, and a submission process, and it goes through a committee of the whole house stage and the whole intention of that is to make better legislation. Now, wait said, uh, just a few minutes ago that we want to ensure the wording is right. That is why we are standing here today saying that we do not support conversion therapy, [01:34:30] but we're not in a place yet where we can support this piece of legislation. We want to. We want you to help us. We've had I know there's been lots of people in in, uh on the opposite side of the house today who have genuinely been shaking their head and said, It's not going to affect parents. We've got some advice here which says interactions within a family would also be captured if they meet the definition [01:35:00] of conversion practises, it would be a criminal offence for parents or other members of a family to attempt to change or suppress the sexual orientation, gender identity or expression of Children within the family. This would align with other existing regulatory controls of parental behaviour that could harm Children. Now there's a lot of wording in this bill [01:35:30] that is quite vague. Uh, the language is very vague, and so it's hard to understand exactly what is considered conversion practises under the law. And in this bill, our primary concern is that this bill exposes parents to prosecution. So if there are people over on the [01:36:00] other side of the house who truly believe that there is absolutely zero risk of that, uh, good luck to you, but we want to be sure we want to sit down and we want to have the conversation. We want to hear the submissions on this because one piece of precedent under the law, if there was one piece of law that set a precedent around [01:36:30] this stuff then, uh, then we've got a problem on our hands. Is it too much to ask that we sit down at select committee and we have an adult discussion, uh, around this conversation? Because because the history the history of, uh, conversion therapy practises is abhorrent. We want it gone. We just want to [01:37:00] make sure that in the process of finding ourselves in a place where we could move to support this bill and on telling you today, and other members of our caucus have told you we want to support this bill, we just want to make sure that we have the best piece of legislation that is possible to be able to support this bill. The thing is, and the thing is in this bill, [01:37:30] there's a real conflation around the language that is very vague talking about, uh, sexual orientation and gender identity expression. Um, and it's confused things. So sexual orientation requires no medical intervention, whereas it comes to gender identity expression. Parents are naturally concerned about being able to make decisions about their Children being given puberty, blockers and hormones. We [01:38:00] want to make sure that the public of New Zealand has the ability to understand the conversations that can and can't be had around these things. And, uh, we want to be able to separate that from what is historically known as or has been a bad practise of the past. And, you know, I saw Elizabeth, uh, up before with a book, uh, which I haven't seen before. And I would really love [01:38:30] to have a copy of that book. As I'm sure many members of our party would, uh, because it sounded to me like there was, um, a lot of, uh uh a good wording in that book and good methods to be able to understand how and family can deal with this, uh, with situations like this. And I'm hoping that going forward, um, that family and will be a lot more accepting of this in the past than what they have been, because certainly I don't want people, [01:39:00] uh, ending up feeling like, um, some of the, uh you know, I don't want people to end up feeling like Glenn Bennett. Uh, just and look, we're both from Taranaki. I don't want people to feel in the future like they're an issue. Is Glenn Bennett? Uh, everyone's got the right to be who they want to be. There is no argument around that we we support. We support LGBTI people. [01:39:30] We condemn those who are intolerant. We do not want to be intolerant. But what we want is we want to make sure that we have got a water tight piece of legislation. This is not I'm gonna for the government. I'm sure you all know this is a first reading. This is not This is not a third reading. Sorry to interrupt the member. Yeah, you have to sit there. So [01:40:00] I wanna warn the members on the government side. That's a barrage of interjections, which is out of order. OK, that's just way too much. Thank thank you, Mr Speaker. So all we're asking for is for you. Oh, sorry, Mr Speaker. Not you. But we're asking for the government members to engage at select committee with public submissions to ensure that you allay our [01:40:30] fears around the I mean, I just really, um I can see, um, Elizabeth nodding. I really do want to have a look at that. And I know other members in our party will do. We want to be absolutely sure that when we support this piece of legislation that, uh, all our concerns and fears around parents and families have been allayed. That is all we are asking for. And, uh, the reason I believe that part of the barrage over [01:41:00] on the other side of the house today has been happening is because we've heard all sorts of things about how we're not supportive of this. We are absolutely supportive of this. No, we are not voting for it today. We are being cautious. And we are We are preserving our rights as members of Parliament to completely understand that when we make a decision that we're making the right decision, and it may be only a matter of changing a clause [01:41:30] in the bill that will satisfy us, that we are not going to create any further harm by having families caught up in something that we're not sure that they won't be caught up in. So we're just asking, uh, the government. And look, we've got that opportunity for select committee. You might not be willing to give us a bit of leeway today, but we do know that we've got the select committee process coming up, and we will be looking for [01:42:00] you to reassure us around that clause in the bill that says that we believe, uh, at the moment, uh, implicates could have the potential to implicate parents. We're asking to just make this piece of legislation more foolproof than, uh, what it has been. Uh, and, uh, if you can do that, um, we'll certainly be going back because we all want to support this piece [01:42:30] of legislation, and it's not too much to ask that you convince us, uh, that, uh, this piece of legislation that we're very concerned about. Um, just there's one piece. There's one little piece in the legislation. Um, and if you can do that, um, we will have no problem. We would support it. We want to support it. We're just giving you the opportunity. We're just giving the government the opportunity to make one clause better. And after all [01:43:00] these years for a bit of certainty, to make one clause better is, uh, in our view, not asking for a whole lot. So, um, we look forward to the select committee process, uh, so we can help make this a better piece of legislation. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I [01:43:30] with my food basket and your food basket and even your food basket will throw five. And as the chair of our La La Rainbow Caucus, it's my pleasure, Mr Speaker, to take a call on this bill a vital bill and an important bill and piece of legislation [01:44:00] for our rainbow, our LGBTI Q plus plus plus the and their communities, parents and families. Today we see you, we hear you. And here we are together. I see this legislation as another step in building a progressive and inclusive aotearoa. New Zealand [01:44:30] and labour has always always stood with our Rainbow Communities 1986 Homosexual Law 2001 Inclusion in the Property Relations Act 2004 Civil unions 2012 Equal Marriage 2018 Expunging historical homosexual convictions and in this term of government, we established the Rainbow Legacy [01:45:00] Fund to support organisations working to improve mental health and well-being of our rainbow communities. We increased access to gender affirm affirming genital surgery. We increased funding for HIV and ST I Prevention services and research and labour is relentlessly proud of our rainbow communities and their I want to thank the Minister [01:45:30] of Justice, the honourable Chris, for getting this bill into the house so quickly after the general election only last year and for working with our Rainbow Caucus and committees to finalise its provisions that are before us today. And I also want to acknowledge the MP S from all sides of the house that have supported making lives better for and more equal for our communities and their [01:46:00] I would particularly like to acknowledge also other MP S in history that have made a contribution the honourable Catherine O'Regan for her amendments to the human Rights act in 1993 to prevent discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or disease status. Honourable James Shaw for his work in the Last Parliament, which will see sexual orientation and gender identity questions in in the next census. And, of course, my colleague [01:46:30] and friend Maya Lubeck, who received this petition from young labour and young greens, which led to her member's bill, which is the precursor to the bill we have in front of us today. And I also to my system Doctor Elizabeth and my brother across the house for their strong advocacy and support on this issue today. This indeed [01:47:00] is a part of our and the story that I have just shared is, and today it is in the spirit of that. I believe our Parliament should approach this bill and move forward. One's sexuality or one's gender identity or gender expression is not a political issue. It is an issue of humanity. Members [01:47:30] from all parties represented in this house have members of their or someone else they love who belong to our rainbow communities. Our loved ones are looking to us all to collectively work together to prevent these harmful practises and give the dignity the dignity to unapologetically be who they are. And so I have to say that [01:48:00] today I am hugely disappointed with the National Party for not supporting this bill, even through to a select committee process where we can iron out any issues that they face. If we cannot be united as a parliament to at least debate these issues and work through them for the betterment of our rainbow communities, we must question why we are are here. Your decision today only creates division [01:48:30] and when division is created, it puts our most marginalised people at the centre and the backlash will take place again by not supporting this bill even to its first reading. It is a support to continue the practise of conversion therapy, its status quo, and that it is shameful. [01:49:00] And now we all know that despite all of the years of progress that we have made in a in the past 35 years, since since law reform, many in our rainbow communities still find it difficult to come out and live their authentic lives. The 2021 youth, 19 Health and Well-being survey of 36,000 students led out of the Auckland out of Auckland University and the Victoria University of Wellington reported that just [01:49:30] over half 53% of same or multiple sex attracted students reported significant depressive symptoms. Half said that they had self harmed in the past year. More than one in 10 had attempted suicide. Only 42% of Rainbow Maori report good well being. More than half report symptoms of depression and close to half report serious thoughts of suicide in the [01:50:00] last year and just over half, 52% of Pacifica rainbow young people report good well-being close to half report clinically significant symptoms of depression and over 40% report serious thoughts of suicide in the last year. We hear you today and we see you and these challenges are much higher than those reported by non rainbow young people. We have to act to protect our young [01:50:30] people from further harm, Mr Speaker, that subjecting them to bogus conversion practises would cause and let us be in no doubt that our rainbow communities are being targeted by these harmful practises. Yes, even still today the 2019 counting ourselves a New Zealand trans and non-binary health survey of more than 1000 people found this that more than one in 6 17% reported that they had experienced [01:51:00] conversion therapy 17%. And the same proportion said that the prof that a professional had tried to stop them from being trans or non-binary a further 12% were not sure if that if this had happened to them, they questioned it. Participants reported much higher rates of high or very high psychological distress than the rest of the population and very high rates of suicidal thoughts and [01:51:30] attempts of suicide. It is time for us to act and put a stop to these destructive practises, which can include aversion therapy, where subjects are physically punished or forced to take cold showers if they become aroused by same sex erotic images or thoughts. Psychoanalysis talk therapy, where subjects are repeatedly told their sexual orientation or gender expression is a mental illness [01:52:00] that can be healed and evidentially it cannot. These rainbow practises have no science evidence or medicine. Our rainbow communities do not need or want to be healed. We want to be respected, we want to be valued, and most of all, we want to be loved for the people that we are. I accept that some people hold a different view to me and may not support this bill [01:52:30] even through the first reading, I hope is that in time all new Zealanders of A will come in acceptance of each other and not opt for the status quo. But this bill will not stop New Zealanders from expressing their opinions. The right of free speech is not impinged upon this lead by upon this legislation. But, Mr Speaker, as I wrap up, I acknowledge Rainbow Youth outline, my friend [01:53:00] Chanel la and the conversion therapy action group Young labour, young greens, young national, inside out, silent gays and the many, many people that have come to support our first reading today. Today we kick off our journey to ban conversion practise. It is time we see each other, we want to be loved. Today we start the journey and I commend this bill to the house. [01:53:30] Uh, before I put the question, Can I explain to members of public, uh, that there are two motions that have to be passed? Uh, if the first one passes, the clerk will read the bill and then there's a second one. If you can hold the applause until after the second one, that would be great. The question is that the motion be agreed to those of that opinion will say I [01:54:00] to the contrary. No, the eyes have it. A party vote has been called for the, um order votes are taken in silence. As you all well know, party vote has been called for. The clerk will conduct the party vote. New Zealand Labour 65 votes in favour New Zealand National. 33 votes opposed Green Party of Aotearoa, New Zealand 10 votes in favour a New Zealand [01:54:30] 10 votes in favour Maori Our members of the eyes are 87. The nos are 33 The bill will be read a first time conversion practises Prohibition legislation Bill first reading. Uh, the question is that the conversion, uh, that the conversion practises prohibition legislation bill be considered [01:55:00] by the Justice Committee? Those of that opinion will say I to the contrary know the eyes have it Party vote has been called for The clerk will conduct the party vote in silence please. New Zealand Labour 65 votes in favour New Zealand and National, 33 votes opposed. Green Party of Aotearoa, New Zealand. 10 votes in favour [01:55:30] Act, New Zealand. Tim votes in favour. Uh, the eyes are 87. The nos are 33. This bill will be referred to the Justice Committee. [01:56:00] Our members as we have, uh, come to a time past, uh, 16. 55. Um, I declare that the, um the house stands adjourned until 2 p.m. on Tuesday the 10th of August 2021.
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