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I'm Christine McFarlane. I'm the current president of the New Zealand Association of Councillors. We are an as professional association that has approximately 3000 members who are provisional or full members across New Zealand, working in a variety of different services and, um, community services privately, DH BS schools. And we ensure that there's a code of ethics and, um, good practise [00:00:30] for counsellors. So conversion therapy. So conversion therapy. I dislike the name therapy editor it because in our mind, therapy and counselling and therapy therapy is a positive and supportive process. When I think of conversion therapy, I think of somebody, um, posing another view on somebody else and trying to make them be something or behave in a way that doesn't fit for [00:01:00] them themselves. So using different methods to do that. So methods such as medication? Uh um as such as counselling or therapy. So that's where we get conversion therapy from. And of course, medication is sometimes called me medication therapy. Um, and there's no, um, really clear, positive, good part of, um imposing, [00:01:30] making people be something that they're not so in in conversion therapy. Changing the sexual identity, the idea of their own, um, gender identity, gender and sexual identity. So, in particular about changing somebody who, uh, a young person or an older person who identifies as being queer Rainbow community a transgender to being heterosexual. Being cisgender you. You were saying that you don't [00:02:00] like the term conversion therapy? What term would you use? I'd like to say it's something that because it's a for me, it's a form of violence. It's a form of imposing another person's will because of their thoughts or beliefs. So I don't really know what I would call it. I was thinking about it last night, and I was like, Oh, what would I call it differently? So So just to give it a wee bit of international context, do you know, um, where conversion therapy is used [00:02:30] internationally? From my understanding, it comes from a Christian based belief system, so in in patriarchy and in the sense that, um, heterosexual relationships are the only valid relationships, and that man and woman are the only um, preferred way of being together in terms of, um, heterosexual relationships and that there's no understanding or belief that there is a continuum [00:03:00] or a movement of gender and sexual identity. Um, and that, uh, and the fear that comes from that. So in a in. And this is my opinion, my opinion of going that, uh, people coming from a Christian some people coming from a Christian point of view have a fear of what that means. And so they're trying to impose and and put a Bibles or interpret the Bible in a way that may not be true for anybody [00:03:30] else. And also a part of that is the history of really traditional male female marriage type relationships and that the that This is what our society has been based on for a very long time in New Zealand. Historically, has conversion therapy been an issue? I think it's something that's hidden. I think that what what we could call conversion therapy is [00:04:00] maybe families and people pushing, wanting, um, shutting down young people's own sense of self and choosing their sexual and gender identity so they may not call it, um, conversion therapy. But it's certainly happening in a social context or a family context. Are you able to give some examples of how conversion therapy works? So in that sense, in in what I would call a non formal sense. I was having [00:04:30] a conversation with a family member only last week around a young person who would be in their mid teens. Um, wanting to to be a male gender identity born with female gender and my family member, um said that that they shouldn't be taking any kinds of medication to [00:05:00] to or hormone therapy because they wouldn't know what they want at that age. So this idea of young people not having the knowledge of who they are and older people making that choice for them or shutting down pathways and and that happens a lot in in New Zealand. What about some examples of, say, professional counsellors or other professionals trying to influence people? Oh, definitely. There is that that sense of, [00:05:30] um, working in mental health services where again it's you're too young to know what that means. You don't have the cognitive understanding you. This is just a phase you're going through. Um, there's also within counselling. There is Certainly some people will choose not to work in certain areas because of their own beliefs and, um, experience and knowledge and qualifications. And that's that's what we have in our code of ethics that [00:06:00] you shouldn't work beyond your experience or scope of practise. And if it's something that you have a strong belief in as a counsellor, then then you need to excuse yourself from that kind of work. What would be concerning is when counsellors or therapists work with someone and manipulate or change or impose their own beliefs. And that, and that can be in a variety of different ways. Whether it's to do with leaving a relationship, whether it's about, uh, somebody wanting to, [00:06:30] um own come out as being queer, whether it's somebody who is, um uh using drugs or not using drugs. So there's a variety of different things or looking for a termination that counsellors can be very influential in. And we have to be incredibly aware of our own belief systems and what that means. So it's interesting I. I mean, I've always pictured conversion therapy. As of, you know, it's, uh, a [00:07:00] course that somebody does, you know, and it's quite, um, blatant that this is what's happening. But it sounds very much like, um, it can happen very quietly as well. Yes, I think it can. I think it can happen really quietly and without without even being aware. And I think that's something that we have to be more talking about. So how do we by by our own beliefs or or not knowing enough So and I can't say that I'm I'm an expert in conversion, the therapy at all and [00:07:30] I and I'm I'm learning about the impact and the prevalence in New Zealand. We have to be more aware of our own growing our own self awareness and growing our own knowledge in this in order to not impose that on other people. What happens then when an individual comes to a councillor and says I want to change So it's not necessarily being driven from an external force, but this [00:08:00] person wants that say they're not happy being gay. So for New Zealand Councillors Association, we have a policy that says we cannot do that so that our our conversion policy says that that that is not acceptable. So the way we would work with someone would be to talk about what, what's driving. They want to change and and look at. How can we support you in and being who you are in this world now. What are the impacts of conversion [00:08:30] therapy? A massive mental health problems, um, suicidality loss of identity and loss of a sense of who and where somebody fits that. I'm OK, that sense of I'm OK. I'm an OK person. I'm allowed to be who I am. So whenever there's anything around identity and sense of being that's being damaged or shut down or not allowed, it increases anxiety, depression, self harming suicidality, um, general [00:09:00] sense of un unhappiness and And it can lead to drug and alcohol addiction, um, destructive relationships, it it's just ongoing massive impact. So prior to this policy that the New Zealand Association of Council has has has just, um, put out, was there anything What, was there any kind of framework for dealing with conversion therapy? Not specifically. So in our code of ethics, we have really clear ethical [00:09:30] boundaries. It doesn't specifically talk about conversion therapy, but it does talk about supporting the person in what they need in counselling. So not like I spoke about before, not imposing the counselor's point of view or belief system upon the client, and that can be interpreted differently. So so like what you asked before If somebody came in saying, I want to change. I don't want to be like this. And so therefore, if we stuck with our code [00:10:00] of ethics as it was, it would be, Oh, well, I will support you in your a choice to change. Whereas with the conversion therapy policy, that's that's clearly saying that is not acceptable for a counsellor. Why did the association feel it needed a specific policy and and why now? It came out a couple of years ago when there was a news story on conversion therapy in New Zealand. And so [00:10:30] it it became more in the news. It was something that had been, um, talked about within the association. And, uh, we have an ethics committee. So we, um, put it back to the ethics committee to look at what we as an association, would be best to do. And our ethics secretaries worked on the conversion policy, and it went back and forward to make sure that we had everything that was appropriate and there to support the association and the clients that come [00:11:00] to see councillors going forward. And all our policies get reviewed every two years, So this will be continuously reviewed and to look at what else do we need to do? And one of those things in my mind would be more education in the development of the policy. Did you, um, seek feedback from different communities? Because I imagine, uh, you know, like Rainbow Communities would have one view. Well, probably many views, but families, I imagine, would have quite different [00:11:30] views in terms of saying this isn't conversion therapy at all. Yes. I can't answer. Um, specifically who who the feedback was sought from. When the ethics committee and and ethics secretaries developed the policy. They did do a lot of research and included some some of the research that they did and as, um as references to the policy, they did not specifically seek feedback [00:12:00] from families. Have you had any instances where, uh, you know, you're working with an individual, but the the the family is really, I guess, opposed to, uh, labelling it conversion therapy or just not wanting to anything to do with this? Yes. And that happens a lot around the country. So in in particular with young people. So So the counsellors who are working with the the really vulnerable age of early early teens [00:12:30] through to mid twenties are often encountering uh, difficulties where the young person is coming. The the family may not know or support it and that that the fear from the young person around um, coming out as who they are to their family, their their immediate family or their wider family is incredibly painful and difficult and and shut down. [00:13:00] There's not that opportunity and the family choose not to be part of the, uh, the counselling process, or it would be too damaging for them to come into that process. Is conversion therapy primarily kind of relating to to younger people, or is it a kind of a mixture of ages? I think it would be a mixture of ages. I think we see more young people nowadays because counselling has become more OK. So it's it's more mainstream, whereas it used to be hidden in the past. So [00:13:30] a lot of young people are coming and and our society has changed over time, whereas older people are still a little bit wary or it it feels like I'm I'm being too vulnerable or um for older people. They've got a life that they don't want to disrupt. And what what does that look like? So so we're definitely seeing more younger people. Are you aware of any laws in New Zealand that actually prevent conversion therapy? No, I haven't seen any, [00:14:00] have you? No, no, I haven't I. I think they were looking at that. But I don't think it it has happened. I think we should have. I think we should have laws. It's about protecting, protecting people's rights, to be who they are and and not allowing others to, to damage and hurt them. That, to me, is a is a basic human right. So can you just walk me through what the policy actually does? So the PO policy [00:14:30] has a definition at the beginning and an opening statement saying NZ AC, the New Zealand Councillors Association Um recognise all humans are are free and equal and dignity, and that sexual diversity in including sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression, is part of that human right and that the definition of conversion therapy, which is also known as reparative therapy, [00:15:00] is a pseudo scientific practise or treatment that seeks to change suppress and or eliminate an individual's sexual orientation, gender identity and or gender expression using psychological and or spiritual interventions. And then it it goes into talking about what What we take into consideration is an association that around social prejudice and bias, Um, based [00:15:30] on gender expression, identity and sexual orientation. And, um, some statistics, um, looking at young people and and what? That and what it's like young people in terms of statistics who who are not rejected and who are supported through their gender expression, sexual orientation, expression and ones who weren't so looking at statistics around the impact of not having that support or being, um, shut down [00:16:00] or not allowed to be who they are and some more around research around conversion therapy and the negative outcomes that come from that. Like we talked about Nega Negative self-image, um, difficulty in in terms of, um, living life in a in a healthy, functioning, flourishing way. And then what our, um, position is is is the last part of the policy and that it says we do not condone or [00:16:30] support any therapeutic interventions such as conversion therapy that proactively wish to change a person's sexual orientation. gender identity or gender expression so that we don't support that we do not condone it at all. Um and that we consider this therapy this conversion therapy to perpetuate societal injustice and discrimination and that it's incredibly harmful and not grounded in any legitimate therapeutic practise at all, [00:17:00] and that anyone in our association who was doing some kind of practise like that would be in breach of our code of ethics. And if that was the case, there is a process around making a complaint through our ethics office. If there was any counsellor in New Zealand who was seen to be or who to be practising a conversion therapy so we would see that as a really serious misconduct or, um, offence against a client and [00:17:30] a part. The other part that was has been added, um, put into the policy is that if any other member of the Councillors Association is aware of another counsellor in the association who is practising in this way, that we are obligated to do something about that. So if we are aware of anyone else who who would be practising conversion therapy, who is a member of NZ AC, then We are, um, need to take action in relation to that behaviour, [00:18:00] and I think that's really important. So we're looking out for for people who are vulnerable in in our, um, in this situation and just to clarify when we're talking about, um, identity, Is it the person and how they self identify, or is it through things like, you know, um, identity documents, like birth certificates? Um, self identity? Yeah. So it's about their own own sense [00:18:30] of identity. OK, has there been any pushback from any of the counsellors? Because I I'm assuming there are also all the counsellors still practising that had gone through the seventies, where things were still mental illnesses. Has there been any pushback from No, and and And we have published, uh, our policy, the conversion therapy policy on the website and also to members and through our newsletter, Uh uh, the [00:19:00] ethics secretaries wrote an article to, um to introduce the policy to the members, and we haven't had any pushback at all, and and nobody, nobody within the association has said, you know, why are we doing this or what's at all? So that's to me. That's positive. And what about the wider community in terms of satellite religious groups. Has there been any kind of No no, although we haven't publicised it widely in the public arena. And that is something that I would like to see the association do. [00:19:30] Like before we're not talking about. We need to educate. We need to educate not only our members, but also the public. So this will be part of that. So how many queries do you get coming into into your office regarding, like conversion therapy? We've had a few a few queries. I was just talking to our ethics secretary Abby before, and she said, We we have had a few queries. Um, we can't talk about specifics in terms of complaints, but definitely some some general inquiries. [00:20:00] Do you think there's been an increase in in terms of inquiries since this policy has been out? I think there's probably been an increase since there's been more wider media and societal attention. We are also getting general inquiries just a lot more general inquiries anyway, So I think people are questioning and looking for, um, is this OK or not? So which is a positive thing, [00:20:30] So people are talking about sexual orientation, talking about gender identity, talking about what does that mean? So that kind of to me, that's a positive that people are are ringing in and asking the general enquiries aren't necessarily from councillors. They can be from public. Does the association itself offer any kind of, um, training or education programmes for counsellors around, uh, rainbow related issues? No. We are going to be employing [00:21:00] a professional development manager who will be organising ongoing professional development for qualified counsellors so that so that will be one of the things that is high on our list to be providing is provisional development for working with Rainbow Community because I imagine it must be quite tricky. Um, if you are not aware of the, um, subtlety of conversion therapy to maybe identify it as a counsellor, Yes, I think so too. [00:21:30] Yes, as as we were talking and thinking about it more in the last in the last few days. That's what I was. I came up with it. It's something if we're not aware of, we can be like you're saying subtly imposing a view that that is not acceptable. Just, uh, finally, uh, we are uh and and this is a wee bit off topic. But we are in the middle of a global pandemic with COVID-19, and we've [00:22:00] gone through level 123, and four. And we're back down to level one here in New Zealand at the moment. And I just wonder, how has COVID-19 impacted your membership? Initially, when we went into lockdown, there was a huge, um, disparity, I guess between, um with our members. So some were really overworked and had had lots of referrals and continued working. But you're using remote online or telephone counselling [00:22:30] options and platforms and others. They were completely dried up there, so that so that was because of privacy or, um, not able to do to provide online or their workplace wasn't able to or to discontinue their they're practising. So in terms of the lockdown, it was quite different all over the all over the country. Um, and we did a a survey during that time in level three just to kind of get a bit of a [00:23:00] picture of what was coming to to, uh, the counsellors, what the public were bringing. And so that was really interesting. And a lot in terms of anxiety, high anxiety, depression, um, relationship difficulties, um, some concerns and financial stress. And, um, for some, there was a high high, um, difficulties in looking after Children and home schooling. So So those are all kind of things that we had expected. [00:23:30] And we also expected coming out of lockdown that there would be an increase in need. And certainly that is what's happening in schools there. After they came back to school, the school counsellors, while while in lockdown the school counsellors were not accessed as much. So young people didn't want to do online counselling. They weren't interested in, um, video calling FaceTime or anything like that. They they used messaging the most. Um, and that could have again been [00:24:00] to do with privacy, not being able to be private at home. Um, and just liking that platform, actually. So that was quite interesting to know that young people prefer face to face with their counsellor rather than online relationship and really important going forward when we think about, um, interventions for young people that we need to think about face to face. And when they got back to school, the school guidance counsellors were slammed, so there's been a huge increase in in more referrals than normal. [00:24:30] And, um, mental health is as we've seen, there's been a lot in terms of funding going into mental health, uh, for counselling, less so. So, uh, we would like to see more funding coming to public to be able to access counsellors as opposed to go to a mental health service. We don't anticipate this is going to go down for a period of for, you know, for a period of time. When we look at the global situation, the impact is going to be ongoing, [00:25:00] particularly with with the stress financially and families and job job losses. And even, just personally, I you know, when I talk to friends, you know, a real, um just covid fatigue. Yeah, yeah, and and the constant reading about when we are exposed constantly to distressing news it it traumatises us. And so we did get desensitised in some ways. But also we forget that our stress we get we get used to the stress levels, [00:25:30] Not we forget it, but we get used to it. So we're used to being a little bit more on edge and tense and, um, and so that that over time is going to impact on our physiological body system. And that's not going to be helpful for for our ongoing health as a population. Um, and the other part that I think has had a huge impact was when we were in the level, um, the three and four where we couldn't hug or touch or be with people. I think that's [00:26:00] had an impact that we don't really know yet. And still, you know, that's that part of, Oh, do I shake hands? Do I hug someone? Um, and then not having that physical touch? And for for a lot of people who were who were living very isolated, where they were on their own, that has had a huge impact for, you know, 6 to 8 to 10 weeks. They didn't have anyone that they could be physically close to. Um, and I have heard of a a lot of elderly people who were living isolated. Their health has deteriorated to the to the, [00:26:30] um, state that they need to go into a a rest home way earlier than what they would have if they hadn't have happened. So So are you giving any, um, specific advice to your membership around covid and how to kind of, um, help some of those issues through the through each level? We put out a R guidelines and, um, recommendations. So the guidelines were about how to work under the different restrictions. So that was under [00:27:00] 3421. And part of that was also about self-care for the counsellors. So where where counsellors are working with people with high distress and need, and there's a lot of referrals coming in, there's often often counsellors will just go, yes, and continue to work even though, really, they need to be taking some time to look after themselves in order to be the best counsellor they can. So So we're really recommending [00:27:30] a lot of self-care a lot of supervisions. We have an expectation that our counsellors have, uh, supervision at least monthly and more regularly if they've got a high workload, um, and ongoing support in terms of information and and I think probably education, ongoing professional development education will be something that we would be looking at doing as well.
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