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Hi listeners, and welcome to this week's episode of Conversations in the Studio. With me today, I have Gareth Watkins and Roger Smith of Pride New Zealand. Hello, gentlemen. Get a. Lovely to have you here now. Listeners would've heard you before, um, chatting to our lovely Tony Reed on his company, gay program. Uh, but I just [00:00:30] thought with all the turmoil that is currently happening in the world, it'd be a really good time to touch base with you guys and talk about the birth of Pride New Zealand, where it came from, how you guys got to that point, and where we're at now with it. So who wants to start first? I know who it'll be. It'll be Gary. Well. To put both of us in context. We are, uh, seventies children. Um, so we really grew up in the 1970s and 1980s, so we're in our fifties now. So during our [00:01:00] lifetimes we've seen a massive change in, in terms of, uh, rainbow rights in New Zealand. Yeah, so, um, we feel incredibly privileged to be, uh, here at this time. Both of us were working at Radio New Zealand in the early 1990s. Right. Um, and that's actually where we first met. How we met. Yeah. Yeah. So what were you doing there, Roger? Yeah, I was a music producer for what was then concert FM, whatever. It's now RNZ Concert, classical Music Station. Uh, and uh, [00:01:30] yeah, I was a, I was an engineer. An engineer. Engineer. So we, there you go. Worked, literally worked together. Almost from the word go. Yeah, yeah. But it's interesting, both our sets of parents are very interested in, well, your parents were teachers. Um, uh, my dad was from Wales, so was a very, uh, keen on storytelling. Um, and I think, uh, a thing that drew both of us into broadcasting was the, uh, the joy of storytelling. Yeah. Through radio, through listening, uh, those oral traditions. [00:02:00] Um, and so I think in terms of pride nz, that was one of the key things was that we were. Already in kind of like a broadcasting environment? Yeah. In the nineties. Completely different from nowadays in terms of what media was available. Uh, we're talking this is pre-internet, pre cell phones, um, pre a lot of stuff. Yes, we come from the dark ages, but also too, not just in terms of the platforms that were available, but in terms of the platforms that we're prepared to offer. [00:02:30] Other voices an opportunity to talk. That's right. And one of the, the, um, early jobs I did at Radio New Zealand was we did shifts on Wellington Access Radio, which was still at that time in broadcasting house in Wellington. Yeah. And so, um, as a, as an operator. We could see all these diverse voices coming through. And um, yeah, it was, it was, it was really fantastic. So around the mid nineties, um, I started doing audio documentaries and really wanted to get those audio documentaries, say, like on Radio New Zealand or [00:03:00] National Radio, uh, but was told very clearly that there was actually no space, um, on national radio for a diverse range of voices. Because actually if you let the, say, if you let the gaze in, um, you'd be letting in everyone else, other people would want a voice of. I mean, that'd be terrible, wouldn't it? I know, and you know, the weird thing is because we are so young, like the 1990s was not that long ago, right? You kind of feel like that attitude comes from the fifties and the sixties. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But it was the 1990s. Yep. Yep. It's just [00:03:30] crazy. And so, um, along at the same time, uh, we started looking at the internet. I mean, the internet, uh, I think the first internet site was like early 1990s. 91, 92. It wasn't until about 94, 95 that they started having, um, potential streaming services. Yeah. And there was a, um, a website in the US called free speech.org, um, which allowed me to, um, upload I. Are those documentaries. Right? And at the same time, um, I was sending [00:04:00] CDs, which again, were a new thing. My goodness. Um, I was sending CDs of those documentaries around the world to, to various broadcasters to see if they could get played. And it was really interesting. It wasn't until about 25 years later that I got a, a, a, uh, an email back from somebody I'd sent a CD to in the 1990s. Um, and actually I've got the, um, the text of that email here, because I think it's probably one of the nicest. Things and, um, talks to me about why Provid NZ was so important. And this came in, in 2020 [00:04:30] from Steven in Arkansas, and he says, I have to admit, I got very emotional when I found the CDs you sent me in the 1990s. They represent the many things to me. I received the CDs from you during a very trying time in my life. I was wrestling to fit into the life of a gay man in the American South. Life had been a rollercoaster for me for many years. From bullying in high school to death threats to being thrown out of home by my family and a loss of almost all of my friends to an attempt at suicide. My life was just starting to [00:05:00] get back on track. When I received the CDs from you, I would listen to them on repeat. During my daily commute, the voices calmed me and made me feel like a part of a larger community, albeit a community I didn't have access to in Arkansas, I. I laughed with them and I cried with them. They allowed me to stay in touch with a core part of me that I didn't want to deny anymore. So I guess what I'm saying is, thank you. I know these audio files were probably just a small part of your life, but for me, they were a beacon of hope. [00:05:30] Wow. And, um, I think that really speaks to the one, one of the, uh, ideas behind Pride NZ is that, you know, recording, capturing events in people's voices now, um, and it may be 20 or 30 years or 40 years down the track that, um, it will resonate. With someone. Um, looking back. Looking back, yeah. Yeah. And, and you just don't know who you are affecting, uh, by the work that you're doing. Exactly. So what was your involvement with this, Roger? In the early stages, my [00:06:00] involvement was very small, really, apart from being a supportive partner, I think really I didn't contribute to the making of the documentaries. All, all the dissemination of them really. You were a sounding board, right? I was a sounding board. Yeah. And I, I say with hand on heart that every piece of audio that. Gareth has ever recorded that he's edited and put up on Pride. NZI have listened to multiple, multiple times as it's been put together. So, um, I feel I'm quite familiar with, um, what is in that archive. That's [00:06:30] brilliant. Well, you need that person though, right? You need that person who has lived experience, uh, and will be maybe the, the listener. Yeah. Okay. So you weren't ma the creator, but you were the listener and Gareth needed to know what the listener would think. Yeah, absolutely. And Pride NZ is so much more than, I mean, while I'm kind of facilitating it, and I guess in terms of like going out, doing the recording, doing the editing, that actually it would not exist without the community feeding into it. So actually it's the people that are [00:07:00] giving their stories, it's the events that are being created that are, uh, um, that the event. Organizers who are allowing those to be shared online. You know, it really is a community effort, right? Yeah. So this was the 1990s. You're sending out CDs, um, out to people utilizing a website that's, uh, based out of America. Um, we have here for listeners, uh. To here, one of the first recordings of Pride New Zealand that happened in 2009. So this is [00:07:30] flipping over into two thousands. We can talk leading up to that, but can you give us a little bit of a background of, of what this recording is? Yeah, so this was one of the very first recordings on Pride nz. So Pride NZ launched in April, 2009, and at the time there were. Kaha Youth Hui. Uh, so this is a, uh, the forerunner to say the, um, inside Out Shift Hui, which is an annual national hui that continues today for, um, rainbow Youth. This was a really fantastic [00:08:00] opportunity to commission a interviewer to go and record. So one of the key things with Pride NZ is that we really like to do that kind of peer interviewing. So yes, youth interviewing youth, older people, interviewing older people, just because you just get a, a whole. Different variety of questions being asked. And, and I think that kind of relationship is quite different from, say, like a 50-year-old going and talking to a 15-year-old. Um, and so, um, why, who was the interviewer? And, um, yeah, this was at, uh, T [00:08:30] Marai in Island Bay and, uh, it ran from the 23rd to the 25th of January, 2009. So this is the second morning of Kaha and yeah, it's about eight 30 in the morning. How did everyone sleep? In a room full of, of like 50 people. Did you get much sleep? Nah, not really. Hey, like, nah, everyone was real noisy and stuff. There was snoring and sounded like a truck. Sweet. So, [00:09:00] um, you are from Wellington? Um, yeah. Ua. Yeah. And your mom was here yesterday and she said she's pretty cool with everything. Tell us, tell us a little bit about that. Well, I just felt like I was like gay, so I approached my mom about it and she was real cool about it, and she tried to get me help and stuff and talk to people and, well, here I am, basically like. She got me here, which is real cool 'cause she just like got me to Larissa and stuff. And this is like a big step for me, which is real cool. Like just. [00:09:30] Meeting other people like me. Yeah. And how old, so was this recently or how old were you when you thought that you might be gay and you told your mum? Um, this was like probably December last year, so I was still 15. And yeah, so it's been a couple of months and I just feel a lot better about myself and more connect with my feelings and stuff. And were you worried about telling her at all? Well, yeah, I was worried, I was especially worried about my dad 'cause just the whole [00:10:00] father son thing. But it was, it was all good. He doesn't, he doesn't mind, which is good too. But yeah, uh, it was freaky, but it was good. I kind of sent it to her in text. But yeah. And what, what did you say? I just said, um, I think I might like boys. That's exactly what I said. Yeah. And how did she respond? Oh, she responded by saying, um, okay. And she just started asking questions about it. Like, is there one boy in particular? All that sort of stuff, you know? Yeah. So she's been [00:10:30] really supportive and understanding and yeah, she's a real, she's a real supportive person, which is really good. 'cause I kind of need that 'cause I wouldn't be here. If I didn't have that support. Yeah. And so this is your kind of first. Is this kind of the first big kind of meeting that you've had with heaps of other young, queer, gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans people? Yeah, like I've actually never met another gay, bisexual, lesbian, transsexual person my age. Cool. Thank you very much and enjoy the rest of Ka. [00:11:00] Thank you. So awesome to hear youth voice representing, uh, the rainbow community. And as you. Said before we listen to this piece. Also really important that it is peer interviewing going on and to think, um, they would be 30 or around 30 years old now. God, they'll be feeling so old. They'll be looking at the youth of today and going, the youth of today. Yeah. But also really cool that, you know, hopefully. These youth listen [00:11:30] back or look back to that time and go, you know, we, we made another big step for our community by participating in things like this. And look back at, with pride at, at how they were involved in this from the beginning. I think one of the, the, the big things with pride nz, one of the things with kind of queer history in general is that often that history is not. Passed down from generation to generation. And so, um, it's not necessarily done through families. [00:12:00] Uh, and so you really do need those kind of external archives or repositories, uh, where things can be held and cherished. Um, I, I think both in, in our work at Radio New Zealand, we've, we've come across situations where. Families have actually got rid of, uh, the histories of queer people because it didn't quite fit into the narrative that they wanted to tell. Yeah. Of family. Yeah, that's right. So, um, it's, it's just really important to have kind of independent repositories like pride, NZ [00:12:30] because you can't necessarily rely on your family or your friends necessarily, or other loved ones, uh, to. Hang onto your stories for you after you've gone. Yeah, exactly. And it's really important that, um, as you, as you mentioned earlier with, with the, uh, email you get got from the gentleman in Arkansas is that it's really important that people know that there are other people out there going on the same journey as them. And if, if families decide that they don't want their person. [00:13:00] To be one of those people, then there needs to be another way for that story to be told and to realize that you're not the first person and you're not the first generation. That actually, even though there were repressive laws and maybe things weren't documented, say a hundred years ago, that we existed back then. Oh, for sure. And, and, and to actually, um, kind of acknowledge that. And that also opens up the idea that, well, if we existed back then. Where are we in the archive? Yeah, where are we? In the state record. And you'll [00:13:30] find us in the state record sometimes in um. Say in court documents or in psychiatric, um, assessments. Assessments, yeah. That kind of thing. Yeah. Um, but where are we just living our lives? Um, and I, I think that really is a lovely segue to, um, some of the recordings that were done, say like in the 1990s, um, with, uh, people. So, so, I mean, they were recorded in the 1990s, but they're remembering back into the 1950s. They're remembering back into the 1930s. Um, and [00:14:00] there was such a, a lovely couple, Johnny and Peter, um, from Wellington, uh, in this particular recording we're gonna play. Um, they talk about meeting in the 1950s. I can't remember the exact date, but Peter and I met, it would've been in the mid to late fifties. I was working at the DIC um, in 1958. Have you met John? Was it? Yeah. Yeah. 1958. Um, I was working at the DIC, um, window dressing, and I saw this wonderful looking [00:14:30] man walk past a tall. Good looking blonde hair. I thought, oh, I'd like to know him. Um, so I thought, now how can I get to, so eventually I thought, well, um, nothing ventured, nothing gained. So I stepped outside, um, on the pretext of. Checking the windows and start to talk to him. Well, um, I used, when I've, I used to work at Midland Hotel that was in Midland Park, and I used to be a porter for a while and [00:15:00] I had to, um, take the money to the bank and that's how I used to walk past John's windows every day. But I didn't per on John, I didn't take any notice of him, rather, rather sad that, so I had to do my utmost to be noticed. I think I've been doing it ever since.[00:15:30] Well, when we first bought a house, we, the people next door, actually, the, some people in the area were especially next door were quite funny because they weren't, were too queers. I mean, they're quite obvious. We, I mean. John looked different. I looked different. And then we couldn't be, try to be two boots because that was not us anyway. I mean, we've never been in the closet. We always been what we, what we are. Yeah. But I think, I think people get used to, and they got used to us. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean, my, my attitude is. [00:16:00] Always been, well, I'm not going away, so you better get used to me. And it works because they do, they really do get used to you. Yeah. And I mean, having been there so long now, well we've probably been there longer than anyone around, we've been there 37 years. Yeah. In house. Yes. It's a bit like Coronation Street. There's a quite a lot of gay people in the area now. To what? Well, I mean, we were the only ones when we first went there, but no, there's quite a lot. Next door to us used to be two story place. I mean, he [00:16:30] used to have this old guy living there and he used to say, it is going to be bloody queer street, those bloody queers living here. He certainly got that way though, didn't he? Not too long after. Yes. He probably would've died of shock if he'd been there now seeing what there is. With my baby. Can't go wrong. Um, so there we go. The 1950s, um, probably a lot more difficult than the 2050s are gonna be. Well, [00:17:00] we hope anyway. And, um, my memories of, I grew up in a small town in the Wapa, um, not really aware of anybody from the queer community, but my first kind of engagement with it would've been the old, uh, Hudson and Halls cooking show. And, um, for me it was more about. Entertainment. I didn't see them as people who lived a life. It was more about they were entertainers and this is how they entertained. [00:17:30] And I guess that was part of, they would've been growing up in the forties and fifties and so that was a big part of their life too. Right. It's, it's amazing when you think of people like Hudson and Halls and um, people like Peter Sinclair who would've had to live very different lives. Um. Uh, just going back 50, 50 years. So again, I think we, you know, we are so privileged for actually kind of living in, in this time, the two thousands. Should we jump to the two thousands? Yeah, let's jump to the two thousands 'cause um, so [00:18:00] both Roger and I were still at Radio New Zealand in, um, the mid two thousands, and then I went and became, uh, program director at Wellington Access Rodeo. Oh, wow. I didn't realize that. Yeah, so I, I was, I was there and in fact, I'm just gonna go hop backwards a little bit because prior to that I did a documentary on homosexual law reform, which happened in 19 85, 19 86. Yes. And, uh, this was a retrospective, uh, looking back at that and used a lot of material from. Access [00:18:30] Community Radio. Right. And, uh, that was through Wellington Access Community Radio. And, uh, it was sourced from gans, the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand, who, uh, Roger, uh, was a trustee at for for many years. Many years. Yeah, many years. Um, so that's really fantastic. But what it taught me. Um, doing this documentary that actually aired on Radio New Zealand was that actually the most amazing content was being created through the access radio [00:19:00] stations. Yeah. And the fact that the access radio stations are all about that kind of buyer community for a community, about a community without any kind of external editor saying. You must do this, you must do that. Um, was amazing because when you listen to what was in the state archives, so say like sound archives, uh, you got politicians talking, you got, you know, the spokespeople talking, what you heard from community access stations. Were the street marches, were the events [00:19:30] that people went to. Yeah. Um, it was the kind of unfiltered, this is what the community thinks, this is what the community feels is important that they need to get across. And remembering, of course, that, um, homosexual law reform, 85, 86, we didn't have internet. So a way of communicating. One of the main ways of communicating, getting the message out to the community was via radio. Um, so. That really started my kind of love affair with access radio. Yeah. And then that prompted me to go to, uh, Wellington [00:20:00] Access Radio as the program director, uh, which was a, an amazing time because. Mid two thousands was when internet streaming was just coming into, into being. Um, and we had an amazing manager there called Kedron Parker. And Kron, um, had a vision of a platform that would allow for. Um, access community stations to be on the internet, both streaming and podcasting. And this is where the whole access internet radio Yeah. Uh, [00:20:30] came about. And it was because of her determination and her passion and the ability of, uh, she, she had this wonderful ability of, um, drawing people together, bringing the diverse. Access stations together. I mean, that's, that's, that's, oh yeah. Really diverse. I mean, we are talking from Auckland, which is probably one of the most multicultural cities in the world through to Invercargill. So you've got, yeah. So we are covering a lot of communities. Yep. But we're also, um, going along that Auckland. Yes. Very diverse. So you've got [00:21:00] people beating down your door basically to create community, to Invercargill where. People are still a little scared, even in the 2020s, to step outta their comfort zone, to talk about their own communities, to put it out there, especially now that we can do streaming, and we have Apple Podcasts and we have Spotify podcasts, I. Um, and I admire them equally as much as the people going into our Auckland, uh, access radio station and even here on the Katy Coast, kind of the same. Mm-hmm. [00:21:30] Yeah. Well, yeah. Uh, Kron, um, was really the, the, the, the kind of start of, uh, internet broadcasting for, um, the access community sector here in New Zealand and, you know, a, a lot of, um, respect for, for what she's done and, uh. Also at, um, Wellington Access Radio. I was fortunate to be able to go and do a Winston Churchill Memorial Fellowship. And so both Roger and I went over to the US and, uh, we were looking at, uh, community [00:22:00] media in California. And that was just stunning because actually, uh, it showed that all the small organizations were, were just. Doing it, you know, that, that they, they had funding issues. Um, they had resourcing issues, but they were just doing it. Yeah. They were just stepping up and making it happen. Yeah. And what inspiring. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that was, that's one of the perks, I guess, of being me and being Karen's partner, uh, was to go along and just to sit in on, um. So many of these places that, that Garath [00:22:30] went to and interviewed, uh, the people there and really inspiring stuff. Really inspiring stuff which, you know, um, we could learn a lot lot from. Um, yeah, certainly we learned a lot from, um, and yeah, really. Go ahead. People really. Getting in and just getting on with it. And this is in the early two thousands. This is 2007. Right, right. So yeah, so you know, we're all still and we're [00:23:00] always that little step behind in New Zealand, well, sorry, we used to be, we are, we are. Not so much anymore. But, uh, yeah, get, getting the opportunity to see that in action and then bringing back that information back to New Zealand. And so that really inspired, uh, me to just go, well actually look, um, you know. Radio New Zealand, the state broadcaster doesn't wanna do this stuff. Um, but, uh, you've seen it overseas being done. And it was at that time when actually kind of web hosting was reducing in, in [00:23:30] pricing. Um, streaming surfaces were becoming a lot more available. I mean, I, I think when did YouTube come on? It was around that same time, wasn't it? Yes, yes, yes. All happening around the mid to late two thousands. Um, and I applied to New Zealand on air for funding and they. Turned me down twice. What they said to me was basically, um, you know, we like the idea, but you need to have a mainstream radio network involved in it to get it to a larger audience. Um, if you don't have a larger audience, we are not interested in, in covering it. [00:24:00] Um, but that really inspired me to just actually go and do it. I'm so glad that I didn't actually get that funding from New Zealand on air because actually it, it made me, um, create something that was a lot more sustainable that wasn't reliant on government funding and could just keep ticking over. So, you know, when, when I've got, um, quite a bit of time to do work on Pride nz, I'll do it. If I need to step back a wee bit, I'll do it. But the, the website kind of, um, continues on. Um, and so you helped keep Gareth [00:24:30] sanity during this time, Roger? Mm. And you know, I mean, you guys still had to earn an income. You still had to pay your bills, pay your mortgage. Yep. Yeah. So that was a big leap for you to take and, and a big leap for you to take as his partner as well. There you go. High five two, Roger. So anyway, we've got another piece of recording here, which was done in the, in the 2020s, but relates to, as you talked about, we've already heard, uh, from a couple of gentlemen from the 1950s. But this is a, a woman who is known and well loved. On the KA coast. [00:25:00] Um, so do you wanna tell us a little bit about this one? Yeah. So, so Roger and I went and, uh, went and recorded, uh, coral trimmer and Sylvia in, uh, in 2022. Um, very much about their, their, uh, amazing love relationship. Um, they just an amazing couple. And during that Coral, who is in her nineties, um, was talking about. Some experiences she'd had, um, a lot earlier on. And, and I guess this is that whole thing of going, you may be [00:25:30] recording in 2022, but you're actually carrying memories from say, the 1940s and out walk this woman with a big smile, she was, uh, 10 years, I was 23, she was 33. She walked out and sat opposite me and she looked and she said. My name's rt, and I said I couldn't talk. I just mouthed the word coral and shook hands. And she looked at me and she said, do you like boys? I said, oh, no, I couldn't [00:26:00] talk. No. And she said, good. You like girls? I said, yes, you noted my head. And she was, she was really, truly wonderful. She knew that I was terrified. I had no idea about love between women. All I knew was what I felt. And, um, what happened was she was distributing anti-Nazi pamphlets during, at the beginning of the occupation. Um, it was in Amsterdam. And, um, [00:26:30] I've seen photographs of her at, at that age, at 21, and she was very beautiful, extremely beautiful woman. And, um, what she had to do to get through that time, I don't know, I didn't ask her, I didn't ask her anything about the war because I thought they could open wounds. I knew if she wanted me to know, she would tell me, and she did at times. But, um. There were little things that happened. I mean, uh, uh, when we lived in, in the Pari, we were close to the Hut River and there are big rocks [00:27:00] along the hut river, and, and quite often she and I would walk along there and we're walking along there one day and she stopped and I thought she was going to pass out, and I held her. And managed to sit down with her. I said, what's wrong? And she said that red paint, some of the spill red paint on the rocks. And then she told me the story about some Nazis had soldiers, had been, a couple of them had been killed by the resistance movement as and as a reprisal. They stopped people in the, [00:27:30] um, in the city, in town and picked out, selected half a dozen, blah, blah, blah. Men, women, children, anybody. They stood there and all the other people, and she happened to be one of them, they made them stand and watch while they machine gunned these innocent people. And then they made her walk through the blood over the bodies, and that's what it reminded her of. So these things sometimes would come crashing back. So that was the fabulous coral trimmer from. S [00:28:00] 2009 was when the Pride New Zealand, the first kind of national type event happened during that year. So we've now been going for, was 15 years. Yes. 15th birthday. 15th, yes. This year. Yeah, absolutely. It's not just interviews that you've been doing, it's more than that. What other, the type of things have you been. Doing over those, sort of from about 2007 when you made that decision that actually you were gonna make this happen your way? [00:28:30] Yeah, a number of the big things have been kind of conferences, uh, which are just a wonderful way of getting a whole lot of different kind of, um, people's voices on tape, um, to kind of, uh, event recordings. So we, we've, um, done quite a few of the, um, AIDS candlelight memorial services. I think probably in the last maybe six or so years, there's been a real uptick in events, um, and kind of activism and that has very much [00:29:00] been around kind of transgender issues. Um, I'm thinking back to, I think the. The, the biggest one I had been to at that time was in 2021 and there was a, a speak up for Women New Zealand, um, event at the Michael Fowler Center. I think they'd been holding events around the country. Um, and this was the Wellington event and uh, I think they had around a hundred or 200 people. Probably less than 200, I would say. Actually at the event, at the Michael Fowler Center, but outside the Michael Fowler Center, there were over a thousand [00:29:30] people standing up for trans rights. Um, and it was the most amazing experience. Roger were there as well, wouldn't you? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was, I was amongst the crowd, and it was extraordinary to think that there's so many people outside compared to how many were inside. Um, and was it a range of people, like it wasn't just trans people, it was their allies, it was their family members. It was. Yeah, it was a huge range of people. It was, it was, you know. The community. Yeah. Or community and all its shapes and sizes and colors. Yeah. And and ages. And ages. Yeah. And [00:30:00] ages. You know, you know, I was speaking to people there like say, uh, bill Logan, who has been an activist, uh, I mean, he was very active in homosexual law reform and was very public in, in, during homosexual law reform. Um, and so to see that kind of, um, support coming from the older. Community as well, uh, was really amazing. So it was just this kind of wonderful mix of, of young and old energy. It's, it's probably the first time, well, it was certainly the first, uh, mass rally I had been to in terms of the, the kind of queer [00:30:30] space. And, um, from there over the last couple of years, it has really kind of, um, you know, there have been a lot of rallies that have been going on and yeah, I mean. While it's a, it's amazing to be part of those rallies. It's also, um, kind of really sad to see the, the kind of the fracturing of society because I, for me personally, I, I don't. Uh, no, no. Good really comes from that. There's such wasted energy and, uh, I think both Roger and I are very much into about [00:31:00] creating things about really use, utilizing energy in a positive way. So this is a, a lot about pride, NZ is about being there and trying to document things in, in a positive fashion, um, and utilizing, um, our energy in, in that way. So, yeah, I, I'm not sure actually where it's gonna end up in terms of, you know, this kind of. Splintering of, of our society. Um, I just wish we could all get on. Yeah, I know, right? So, um, what we've got next is, um, some recording. It is Tristan [00:31:30] Cordelia at the Rally for Trans right, which happened on the 15th of July, 2021. Trans women are women. Women, trans men. Trans men are men. Trans men are men. Non-binary genders are valid. Not why is all valid? Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. Mr. Han, Mr. [00:32:00] You are all beautiful. You are all amazing. You are all valid, and I love every single one of you.[00:32:30] My name's Tristan Cordelia. Uh, I'm a Wellington trans woman. I was MCing the event tonight. Um, I'm feeling just, you know, amped up. I guess I was feeling very nervous before the event. A little worried how it would go. I blew up the sound system before it even started, so we had to use a feedbacky microphone. Uh, I didn't get to play the amazing playlist we had selected, um, but every, the crowd seemed to respond well. They're amazing. And now I just have all that energy. [00:33:00] If, if somebody couldn't be here tonight, but really wanted to be here, what, what would your message be? Be to them. Um, don't be afraid to be yourself. And support others who are struggling to be themselves, lift each other up and care for one another. So that was a, uh, trans rally that happened on the 15th of July, 2021. But there's been, uh, so much more than that over the, um, 15 years that you've been bringing pride in New Zealand together. [00:33:30] What's some of the things that have stood out in, in recent times outside of, of this particular rally? You're right. I mean, there has been so much, I mean, uh, there's over 900 recordings on Pride nz. Wow. So, um, to actually kind of pick something that kind of stands out, it's, it's quite hard because actually, I mean, it all stands out in a, in a, in a variety of ways. And I, I think going back to like the, uh, earlier part of the conversation where you don't know what is going to affect people in 20 or [00:34:00] 30 years time. Yeah. Um, so I try and treat every recording as special. But yeah, it, it has been an amazing, am amazing ride and. Just to chart people's progress over that time. For instance, you know, say like, grant Robertson, the, the former, um, deputy Prime Minister, um, we've got recordings of him in 2013 and then, uh, just this year as well. So pretty much his whole parliamentary career. We've got recordings where he was at, at local events, [00:34:30] um, which is really, um, incredible and just great to see that, that. Progress. And also people like, um, Tabby Besley who, uh, is the manager founder of Inside Out. Uh, and, uh, to see, uh, her progression from, uh, even before the formation of Inside Out Support Youth group, uh, to now where it's, it's, it really is, uh, a very prominent, um, support group in, in New Zealand. Yes. Um, is really, really amazing. Yeah. It, it, it's just been an [00:35:00] amazing ride. Yeah. And what about you, Roger? Is there. Like particular things that you are, like, you can talk from a pride point of view in terms of Gareth, like things that he's done, that you've gone, wow, that was amazing. Oh, one of the things that I, I, I'm so impressed by and amazed by, is that the archive that is Pride nz uh, Gareth is saying there's what, over 900. Must be coming up to a thousand now because you've done a lot quite recently. But, uh, the, this is actually recognized internationally now as being a [00:35:30] really important archive. And so it was the Library of Congress in the us um, now have whatever it's that they've done, archived it, recognized it, they've archived a, your archive, which is, uh, fantastic for it to get that kind of recognition. And I think, you know, looking. Forward to the future. Um, what, what next with that incredible resource, and I guess particularly in recent years, when you look at people like, um, Georgina Bio and, um, Carmen and the New Zealand has kind of always. [00:36:00] Put themselves out there and taken that step and gone. Actually, we need to be vocal about this and having people like yourselves, uh, being able to record that vocalness and make sure that it is kept so that future Gareth and Rogers know that, that this is a journey. But there are people out there who have been on this journey and who can help guide them. Yeah. And I, I think that actually, that's one thing that really inspires me is just going back to the access radio material. Also listening back to stuff in the mid [00:36:30] eighties and hearing what they were doing and, and, and the, the people that recorded those recordings. You know, I'm so thankful for, I think, you know, thank you for going out there and doing that, because actually this now resonates with somebody 30, 40 years later. Yeah. And isn't it amazing? It is so amazing. So you've got, we've got one last recording to um, play for our listeners and this is, uh, one that happened this year. So this is like the latest recording from Pride nz. So can you tell us a little bit about this? Yeah, so this was part of Wellington Pride [00:37:00] Festival and it's the, um, the annual koi that that happens. And uh, this was a march from Civic Square to Parliament Grounds. And then I had about an hour's worth of. Speeches at Parliament Grounds, but I thought this was a great example of the, the kind of intersectionality of, of, um, movements nowadays. Uh, so there were three key, uh, um, pillars in the he, which, uh, will be talked about in this recording. And I just thought, this is a, a great example that actually [00:37:30] we don't, um, fight for just one thing. We fight for. A lot of things and, um, the people in our communities aren't just made up of one facet. They, they are multifaceted. Um, and that should be something to be celebrated. Kda. My name is Qu. I'm a Ran Maori from Te Todo. I've just moved down to Pke and I'm leading the pride for the Wellington Pride Festival. We're in the civic square with all of our marshals waiting for the community to come. We've got some lovely placards and [00:38:00] banners, Palestinian flags waving in the air as well as our. Thanks. And you, you mentioned some of the placards. Can you tell me what's on them? So, uh, placards have a variety of messaging. Our three core free Palestine and AKA tap, which refers to the protection of rainbow and aka tap legislation. Uh, at the threat of this, uh, colonizing coalition, government, New Zealand. First the AX party and National. So our signs read affirming messages like AKA tap. We have always been here queer for free. [00:38:30] Palestine, uh, children deserve. To learn about their queerness. Children deserve sex education, queer education, gender education. Um, and just positive, affirming messages that try connect all of the COPA together, which they are. Thank you so much, Gareth and Roger for coming in and talking about your journey to that latest recording from the Pride Koi in [00:39:00] March, 2024 as part of Pride Month. Just wondering kind of what your vision is. For where to from here? I think the future is going to be fantastic because just on the horizon, just starting out now is of course artificial intelligence and uh, generative artificial intelligence. And, uh, we've been using it a number of ways on Pride nz in terms of creating, uh, well firstly, transcribing. The audio so that actually it [00:39:30] becomes a lot more searchable, a lot more findable through things like Google, but then also doing, uh, summaries of the material and also being creative with the material. So I think actually using the material in a whole variety of ways, we are just at the start of artificial intelligence. And on the website, you know, there's a, there's a section kind of dedicated to artificial intelligence for good because I mean, we are hearing stories of, of how. Some bad stuff happens with ai, but actually if the original intent [00:40:00] from the humans is positive, then actually it can be used in the most amazing ways. I have no idea in 10 years time what it's gonna be like. I mean, you know, if somebody had asked us in the 1990s, oh you, you, you'll be able to be streaming video. You'll be able to stream this and that. We wouldn't have believed them. No. You know, I mean the technology has moved on so much in the last, uh, 40 years. I just dunno what it's gonna be like. I do know though that the archive is very safely [00:40:30] housed at the National Library. I. Right. Um, Alexander Turnbull Library here in Wellington. And so that actually, uh, it will be preserved, uh, forever. Yeah. Um, and it will also be preserved at the Library of Congress. And I think actually having it in kind of multiple institutions is a really good thing. So I, I think I. For me, the knowledge of the, the voices being in a secure place, in an accessible place is, is just amazing. Yeah. And you guys are a step for that as well. I mean, I [00:41:00] think that's amazing. Like young people or people of any age who are. On their queer journey and not really sure what their next steps are or feel isolated. Because even in the 2020s, there's still, and I'm thinking particularly of young people, there's still young people out there who are being abandoned by their families and their friends and their communities because that's not how they visualize them as being. Um, and as you said, a big part of, of your [00:41:30] whole reasoning for making these recordings is so that. Family couldn't cut out that part of somebody's life. Um, so I think you guys are absolutely amazing. Long made this go and, um, yeah, I'm excited to see what the future holds for you both as uh, pride, ENZ as well. Thank you so much, Gareth and Roger for coming in. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. You've been listening to conversations. I'm your host, Nikki Carroll, and today I've been chatting to Gareth Watkins [00:42:00] and Roger Smith, who are Pride New Zealand. This program was made with assistance from New Zealand on air for radio broadcast, and through the Access Media NZ website. Thank you New Zealand on air.
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