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Uh, well, you heard it. There first. Here, folks. My name is Cole Hampton. Um, I born and bred in Wellington. Um, yeah, just, uh, currently Pamela Hancock from bulls. She's a 63 year old lady from bulls. Um, hugely based off, you know, the seventies and, you know, my own, um, woman in my life, but also a bit of a few men, Which is quite interesting where you know that's gathered. Um, [00:00:30] yeah. Um, I was raised by my mom as a sort of a solo mom. My dad went missing when I was about seven months old. Um, and his body was never found. Um, but yeah, just been living in Wellington all my life with my mom and a few cats over the years. Can you describe, uh, when you talk about kind of gathering bits and pieces from different people to form a personality? How that works? Uh, well, it's sort of I guess it's up [00:01:00] for interpretation because I don't I'm not necessarily an actor. I don't consider myself an actor more. I'm more of a a singer, and I sort of I think about it, You know, I take bits from everything don't look at one person when it comes to drag because it ends up just looking like the person that you've based it off. Um, so, you know, being singing jazz, you know, through high school and in my, you know, teeny pop years it it gave me the opportunity to say, Listen to a jazz standard like stormy weather And, [00:01:30] you know, here Len Horn's version EAL, Billie Holidays, Frank Sinatras and all these and you take these different inspirations. But it's different for everyone. You know, some people do it for just dress up and pride and just, you know, they just love a woman's frock and, you know, a good you know, pair of heels. Um, some people do it for comedy. Some people do it for the lip syncing, but what a lot of people don't know is that drag. [00:02:00] You know, there's a lot of theatre people that come to, uh, you know, the drag scene, and they have made a living for themselves through the drag scene, which I think is a, you know, really big testament to our performing society, not only in theatre in the straight world but also the Queer World and it gives, you know, drag. That's great for a lot of, um, queer people who have come from the theatre and want to take their performance somewhere else. So it really you can really push to set [00:02:30] a standard and drag. And I think that's already been done in Wellington, you know, by many wonderful, you know, drag performers California Hugo Girl Willie Macintosh Polly filler. Um, Selena Simone There, there are a lot and that have come over there. So I've only been in the drag scene for about coming up three years in September. That's when I started Pam and became a gay. Really, I guess, um, it's just, you know, So the first time [00:03:00] I walked into a gay bar was the first time I performed as Pam. And so I didn't I didn't know a soul. I didn't know an absolute soul. And I saw this little old lady toddling on down. You know, I didn't even have my wig straight. I didn't discover a hair brush. It was My friend was doing my makeup and, um, no one. No one really said a word to me until I went on stage talking as Pam and doing all that. And then suddenly it was just like Bam there it was because before you know, I was doing musical theatre [00:03:30] at and that didn't work out. And, you know, I focused more on singing. And then comedy just sort of came out. You know as well as because I don't read books. It's terrible as a you know, sort of writer that I don't read a lot of books. It's more. I'm more. I like to listen, you know, because you can say a lot more, I think, by speaking it and sort of necessarily telling it in a book. It's just I'm I'm just a very visual person. So you know, I can, you know, a picture [00:04:00] paints 1000 words sort of thing. Now we've covered a lot of ground just in in that three minutes, and I'm just wondering just to to kind of go back on that a wee bit. And I guess first of all, um, talking about how you identify how many of you you words used words like drag former. I mean, female impersonator. What? How would you How would you identify? It's interesting because, um, there's been you know, no [00:04:30] one's really asked the question If Pam's a drag queen or not, I consider I mean, a lot of and I, you know, when it comes to, you know, being in the drag, saying you're going to get a lot of slack and a lot of shade thanks to Bru Paul's drag race and reality television. Um, yeah, the I I someone said to me, You know, Pam's not a drag queen. She's not tall. She's not pretty. She doesn't glue down her brows. She doesn't tuck, she doesn't. And I think that's when, [00:05:00] um, that becomes very disrespectful to women. And I think women especially I think women are very badly treated in the queer community because of the work that they've done and things that they have seen and someone and I I consider myself a drag queen. I mean, a woman isn't measured by the size of her breasts or the size of her arse. Um, it's measured by the her heart. And you know, a lot of gay men who I assume started [00:05:30] off in the drag scene who were cut off by their families cut off by their friends, especially around the AIDS crisis where they had to be playing mum. Um, you know, now we have drag moms and drag houses, which again is a, uh, for me, it's a colonisation thing because we're taking it from queer people of colour who were kicked out and this was in New York. And now it's become this trendy thing, and it's quite sad to see that because [00:06:00] it dampens my faith on our people. Know our history not only, you know, as drag performers, but also working in nightclubs, um, marching and parades. And we we we don't have that in our generation, we we've only got social media, which makes things evidently a lot worse because there's a lack of communication, a lack of knowledge that we can pass on. But we we're not willing to go back [00:06:30] and look and say, Well, we're actually sitting on the shoulders of these really great people. They're not sitting on our shoulders, you know, Um, but there's there's different types of drag. There's, you know, that have just started springing out, you know, drag kings, bio queens. Um, you know all sorts, and that's the great thing about drag. And especially in Wellington, where it is very, um, you know, you can do anything you want, and it's all about experimentation. And that's the great thing [00:07:00] about, you know, performing. You know, you do it for the love of it. You don't do it for the money. And, you know, the day I hear that you know someone's doing it for the money is the day I quit. You know, I think you know, you do it for the love of it. And you know, of course, it's a hard, you know, um, circumstance to be in, but with drag, I think I'm a drag queen. I'll I'll call myself a drag queen. Um, I'm not tall or pretty. It's old lady drag, which we don't see anymore, [00:07:30] Really? And it's, um, that we have you know, we've had Mrs Doubt fire Mrs Brown, um, Dame Edna, uh, and the top twins as well. You know, the top twins are a huge part of the drag community, but these people don't know, and it it it's It's a bit of a shame, really, because, you know, we what I've found throughout because I'm a lover of history, I'm an old bugger at heart. But I think, you know, to look, to look [00:08:00] forward, we have to look back as well and see how much has been done. But how can we make it safer? So I'm really interested in how you educated yourself in all of this history. And I'm wondering if we can first of all, go back to a thing you said. Where you You said you you became gay? Um, three years ago. And just, like, a bit more kind of background on to you and how that happened. And then how did you How did you get educated? [00:08:30] I was just given the assumption, You know, I was just given to say you're gay and I was like, I don't know, I hadn't thought about it. And I, You know, it's different. Everybody discovers their own sexuality. I didn't I dated girls in, like intermediate. Um, but I never thought about my sexuality. I didn't think about sex as a child. I didn't think about, You know, I just love dressing up like I dressed up in women's clothes all the time. You know, it would be from different characters of different. You know, TV shows [00:09:00] films, um, theatre. You know, like short and Street Woman short and street receptionist Joyce Myers, Suzie Kao, Maria von Trapp, Mary Poppins. Even doctor who, which is, you know, quite interesting. Now to see a woman, doctor. I'm just like, Oh, this is really cool. Then I can do something a little bit more. Um, but for me, I just dress up and my mom just let me, you know, it was just dressing up, but I didn't I didn't think about being gay or being homosexual or being [00:09:30] Trans. You know, I just I did it for the love of it. And my mom really supported it. Supports that. And she's always been a good supporter. But, um, with being gay, I was just sort of given it. And then I came to my own realisation, but it was sort of under pressure because it was high school and high school is very political, and everybody just assumed I was gay. And so I just came out as gay, and for some reason, it fit like a glove. Now, what kind of year was this? [00:10:00] This was when I was about 14. 15. And so what? What year? Like 4014, I guess 14. Yeah. Um, And also around that time when I was just sort of discovering my own sexuality and my own sort of creative freedom and where I can put that not only in singing and acting, but also, you know, dressing up in some funny, weird clothes. You know, like leather pants to school, like gay. That's gay. [00:10:30] That's gay. And, you know, they never fit. And it was all this stuff. But then I, you know, at the time, I was also, you know, under domestic abuse, um, which was very hard. And that was that came from a very The person came from a very homophobic point of view, and he took his anger out on me a lot of the time. Um, and it was verbal, but, you know, which is harder to sort of clarify [00:11:00] or justify? Um so that gave me a lot of strength as well as a lot of things, you know, that have given me the strength to do the things that I can do, especially in the queer community. I've You know, I it just seems, you know, when I think about it, it's it's I'm very lucky to be a part of the gay scene, and I didn't think about it. And as soon as I started looking into it, the only knowledge I had until I was about 20 or 19, [00:11:30] I only had knowledge about Freddie Mercury in the AIDS crisis. And then I started looking at that, and I and it really made me think about you know what people did, especially drag queens and how they sort of protected that the smaller minority and younger gay people who were evidently kicked out, who were evidently beaten up by police and were ignored by police and health officials. And what have you so drag queens have always [00:12:00] been that main front, and I like being on the main front. I like helping people and making people laugh. It's one of the things that I'm actually good at. I've realised, um, and it's and for me that, um, I can channel that into Pam really well, and it has gotten me into some really, you know, wonderful, you know, moments. And so far, um, being Pam. But I also think for [00:12:30] I just sort of came out. I didn't really dabble in grind. Or I didn't do any of that when I was in high school or before I started drag. I just didn't. And then it did. And then yeah, which has made things quite difficult because everybody knows me as Pam, you know? So they're always going to see the little Ginger Bob and the little you know, you know, big lips. You know that smile. I wish I could describe it, but I can't. It's just it's just a face. It's just a face. [00:13:00] You know, this this little old lady, and that's all people can see. Maybe it means I'm bad at makeup, I don't know, but it it's sort of It's really interesting to be in that position when you're a drag performer, you know, and you're doing old lady drag because it's not necessarily attractive. You know, there's nothing attractive about it, But there's an appeal. Um, so you know, I'm not again. I'm not tall or pretty. I don't have tits [00:13:30] out, you know, to kingdom come, I don't have a I don't pad. I don't tuck. I don't do any of that shit because it's not what I'm into, you know? And the woman I looked at came from a different era. You know, a lot of people drag queens. They look at Beyonce, Lady Gaga and you know, and that's that's pop culture, you know, And there's always gonna be pop culture. My pop culture is just dating a little bit back, but also just the suburban side. It's camping it up. It's Kiwi [00:14:00] and we've. And the New Zealand has always been good about that as well as Australia with Norman, Gunston, Dame Edna. And we've had the top twins for Dag and Diamond Li. But so that's where my inspiration comes from, as well as you know, Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, you know, and that's where those male influences come in. So when you were growing up, was it that kind of that you were surrounded with? [00:14:30] Yeah, Yeah, a lot. A lot. It was different scenarios. I sort of, you know, my I come from my mom's side of the family, is very Christian, very catholic. Um, but my mom was sort of the hippie. The one, but so I knew that one. These very privileged, you know, people you know, in a family where they they've they're talking about racial rights. They're talking about gay rights. They're talking about, you know, abortion and all that, [00:15:00] And I I've just sort of kept quiet. But then I see, you know, I met other people. I met really poor people, you know who are living in their beach houses because they couldn't afford a flat, you know, So you really I. I really understood. And I just sat and listened to a lot of these adult stories. It wouldn't necessarily even be eavesdropping. It would just be sitting and listening to your mom and you know, their friend talking. And you can [00:15:30] learn a lot about that. You know, you can, it's not. And it doesn't come from a scientific perspective, you know? Or, you know, uh, you know Cole Hampton's take on women because it's not a take on woman. It's so common that we don't need to talk about it. But when we see it, we smile and we feel good because it's homely. And that's what a lot of I think, I assume that a lot of older gay men went through. So do you think growing up that you were relating more to older [00:16:00] people rather than your your age group. Yeah, absolutely. Um, all the time, you know, listening to Frank sna singing Sinatra and, you know, knowing all this weird knowledge about New Zealand politics. And what does this 14 year old know about bloody Rob, Rob Muldoon Or, you know, the, um, the foreign exchange crisis, you know, and I just watched all that. I watched it all the time. All these old because I knew people also, you know, sort of mentors and friends [00:16:30] who worked in the old Avalon days at television. One who were, you know, really creative people. And, you know, it was a thriving business, you know, especially in Wellington and especially of that period. But, um, I just watched a lot of that old footage, and it just sunk into me, I guess. And that's how Pam was created. So what was it like, uh, being 14 year old at college? Yeah. Relating more to [00:17:00] older people. What was it like? Kind of being out and gay at that time. I was lucky. I was lucky, in a sense. But also, you know, I was pushed up against walls being had my bag thrown into bins and stuff and people threatening me. You know, these and that That was very hard. That was very hard. Um, and it made me very vulnerable, which it's put me in a few bad positions, but [00:17:30] high school, Really? For me On a whole, I looked back at it, and it was a really amazing experience. I, you know, I was a part of the, um, club sandwich QS A, which was a rainbow queer group that I discussed, you know, with a lot of people. And we had discussions about, you know, OK, how can we make how can we be more accessible to people who are homophobic? You just talk to [00:18:00] them, just talk and listen. And we had my friend who? The straight white guy, and he is very political and very loves to talk philosophy. And then someone there was like, Well, the the straight person can't be here. They can't be there. They can't do that. And and for me that I disagreed with them because this is someone who's actually willing to learn, and we're just pushing them away even more. We're not actually listening. We're not actually answering any questions [00:18:30] by shouting. And although on March you know, I can do a lot more but, you know, sort of silence and just lending in there is so important, I think, to what it means to move forward. What, uh what high school did you go to college? And we had a gay teacher there. He was the music teacher. I completely forgot about him. He was a very big part of my life. Um, just as a mentor, as a singing teacher, he was a brilliant [00:19:00] teacher and gay, and, you know, he really taught, I think, thinking about it. He really taught me what it meant, you know, to be a gay man. And he did that for a lot of people and, you know, knows about classical intelligent and just taught us about queer history. And I think, Yeah, he did. He did. And then I was just sort of discovered about Freddie Mercury and stuff. And you know how much of the gay scene is influenced [00:19:30] in music as well as performing and stuff? And I learned that through him, and he evidently sort of created Pam, which was, you know, originally Mabel Hancock. I added the Hancock name last, but it wasn't because it was rude. I was doing a school production of the Pyjama game, which was sort of fifties Doris Day musical. And since you know, all of we could we could not do American accents. And so we did it. We said it in 1954 [00:20:00] Fox and they gave me the female role, which isn't supposed to go to a man. Um, and I did Mabel and we made it into a drag character, and I found myself I only did it for about four months. We rehearsed for about four months and then did three nights of it, and it was sad. I cried when I had to let go. It felt like I knew that I created this woman and then just said, Well, why don't you push it? I'm like, Oh, yeah, maybe, I don't know. And I sort of forgot about little old Mabel who was much prettier [00:20:30] and much more domesticated fifties housewife, um who were hugely based off. You know, my nana as well and just, you know, because I would sing in retirement homes and I'd meet all these old ladies lovely old ladies and also men who would just, you know, do a quick wink and just that's all they would do. And the woman would be like, Oh, you're absolutely lovely, you know? And all this, all that shit. So would this be singing in drag or singing? No, no singing as myself. So I was a singer as myself for many [00:21:00] years. Yeah, And then Pam came up just out of the blue. I bumped into someone who I went to rail with, and they were a drag king. And they said, Oh, you should do drag here. And I'm like, Oh, I don't know, maybe. And, um, the manager of Ivy, the owner. Now he said, Oh, we should try and get you that, you know, get you down here. And, um, he gave me his card, his number. And then we talked to said, Well, there's a show coming up called Clash of the Stars. It was produced by California, and I had no idea [00:21:30] about drag. And this one guy that I was singing, who was a bit of an asshole he said, Oh, yeah, you lose the competition. If you don't do your own makeup So I called up this naive kid. I called Kelly up on the phone. I said, um, hi. Um, is it true that you can't You know, you have to do your own makeup, Otherwise you're disqualified. And I said no. Where the hell did you hear that? You know, So it was quite it was going into a quite a hostile environment as well Going into that [00:22:00] and I've never had a political agenda. When I've worked my main goal, someone said to me, Every drag, every person that does drag is an activist, Yes, but, um, your activism doesn't come with a doesn't need to come with a flag or a sign or a newspaper print. You know, it can come through a laugh. It can come through a good time as well, and we've seen so many bad times as a queer [00:22:30] community. But again, there comes this one great day, which is pride, and that's when everybody should feel together and feel loved and feel proud. And this year I didn't feel it because, of course, with the, um, open letter with whip and you know, it's for me. It was more of a thing. We need to communicate this and nobody was communicating it. And what was the, uh, Wellington International [00:23:00] Pride parade? And the The letter was about boycotting the parade. So there was a letter from various groups including, um, gender, minorities, saying that they felt and a number of people in the community felt that the parade wasn't by for and about the Rainbow Communities. No, it wasn't. It wasn't. Um what do you think that the parade wasn't I don't think it was No, it was a tourist attraction when [00:23:30] I got to it. Anyway, um, they asked me to host and I said yes. On the account of one on one account that, you know, we get Wellington performers and I said, there needs to be communication, you know? And there isn't a lot of representation of those gender minor of gender minorities, um, and those other organisations and it's affected a lot of people this division and it's affected performers, gay [00:24:00] men, lesbians, trans people. But for me, it affected. It affected me as a member of the queer community because I don't like drama, but I still get caught up in it because we are all a part of the feeding of that, Um, but it's never been my agenda to make people angry. It's to [00:24:30] make people feel happy, which I think is, you know, one of the first steps about talking it through. And that's what I've sort of tried to do with Pam. I guess what originally wasn't. But then I realised, you know, the sort of impact that you know a performance can have. You know, I, um there was one I performed at the inside out shift out in, and I did this concert [00:25:00] and someone had sent me a sketch that they did of Pam, and they posted it on their instagram, and it's it's they said today. I drew this on the day of my mother's burial, and they had lost their parent and they drew Pam, and I asked them why II? I was deeply moved by it because that that must mean something to people, and I don't take that lightly. I can't afford to, because [00:25:30] if I do, then everything else will fail. And what I'm trying to do as a performer is someone who believes in communication and who's a unionist, basically, um, and this person said, I asked this person why? I said, I know Pam just made me feel good that day and that that's a very moving, and that was very moving for me. Um, because as well as you [00:26:00] know, being a caregiver for my mom. It it changed the field. And then I wrote Hello darling's Pam solo show, and you know it. It was really good. I just finished with the fringe, Thank goodness, just before COVID-19 and for me, the show had a completely different meaning because a lot of changed the last time that I did it, which was up at Scott. And it was The show is Hello, darling's for me. It it was about [00:26:30] showing that vulnerable side of Pam and where those jokes come from, where her fantasies and where her imagination comes from. And it comes from me evidently, and people really believe she's a little old lady that will catch the shuttle down to bulls that has a husband called Trevor. And I knew that there was more of an impact, and it was one of the closing nights, I think, and Pam was about to, you know, was feeling quite sad after these amazing things that happened there was dead silence and it was quite [00:27:00] freaky. And I was walking, you know, up to the wedding photo that was on the stage. And, you know, someone a woman caught out your pa and I had to turn around and say, Don't ruin the delusion, you know, and which is, I think, and a lot of people loved it. And then I took the show down to Christchurch and there were these two women, these two, you know, they looked pretty miserable. And I thought, Oh, God. OK, all right. And then I did it and I was trying to feed [00:27:30] off them, try to do all that, and they were just not taking a bar of it until the very end where I finished with climb every mountain from the sound of music. And they were the first people to stand up for the standing ovation. And that was just like, OK, well, this is where do I take that now? And for me, it's a very interesting It feels like a political season, I think just because with the Pride Parade [00:28:00] being over in pride and fringe in the coronavirus, that we're gonna see, You know what real unity looks like this. Maybe this is a test, you know, And I think what we must do is just communicate, which is something I've always tried to do. Be kind because a lot of people have taken Pam's drag as offensive racist, uh, sexist. And I wouldn't be doing it [00:28:30] if I was homophobic or racist or sexist. You know, Pam comes from different people, even Maori women, even Samoan woman, you know, and that's that. That's very hard to explain. But when As soon as you see it, you're just like, OK, now I get it. And being Pam, it's I've had a small understanding of what it's like to be an older woman and walking up Courtney Place. Not being a tall, pretty drag queen, not with the [00:29:00] sound of the heels, you know, echoing down to the bottom of Courtney Place. I learned about invisibility, which is interesting because Pam just had the bulb in the glasses. Everybody just saw her as an old woman. That's what people see her as you know, they you know, Although she's up on stage, she'll still have to shove through it and still ask excuse me and that that's that's That's the bitter moment of it. [00:29:30] And that's the sad part that, you know, this little old lady is sort of, you know, but not, you know, being well looked after, say, that's the theory because we do see older women and we do see older people in bars. And we think, Oh, no, we won't deal with that. You know, we don't want to deal with that, but for me, and that's what hello darling did for me. It delivered this set aside that not only about my Dragon and about Pam's story, but about being a queer [00:30:00] person in an isolated environment, which goes for a lot of people in New Zealand who feel isolated in such a small country. And so, you know, writing the second show now a landfill majority. It's where Pam runs for Prime minister, and it's gonna be very interesting to where I can take it, because we've seen Pam at her vulnerable, sad size. But we've never seen her angry, which is, you know, something that is pent up over many years [00:30:30] of, you know, adversary or, um, drama, You know, not only in, you know, groups in your groups, but also family and whatever. So it'll be really interesting. And, you know, I did feel I have felt a real divide in the community, which is quite sad. It's quite sad, and we're not really trying to address it. You know, people aren't willing to meet, aren't willing to meet halfway. So how should we address [00:31:00] it? Well, I think a starts off really? Well, um, I think that's what we need because it's gotten to the point now where? Where? You know, one side is saying we're not gonna we don't want to be abused again, and the others are actually also trying to reevaluate this. But there are people in the system that are too tired because they feel like they've done enough by sending a post. Or we need an official a discussion. [00:31:30] You know, not a a Skype chat, an official discussion, which is always always clear. We need to have an official meeting and you know, a neutral on neutral ground with an official mediator, which I think is something even I pushed for. But it didn't go through because just because I there was only so much I can do my push, though, for it is just communicate. So what would your ideal [00:32:00] pride parade ideal pride Festival look like? Mm, I think, where everyone's just smiling. Um, I was marching in the parade and I felt so free, so good and so natural. Um, but then I felt this tinge of sadness because, you know, a lot of people I know weren't there, and that was quite sad [00:32:30] because they were celebrating their own pride, which is fine. That's more than fine. But it was just like, Why do we have to pride parades in such a small city? Why is that? And there's just sides not listening. It's just going one in one ear and out the other. It's interesting that I just go back to one of the things you said right at the start, which was, You know, we are in a social media age where we've got so much interaction. And yet there is such a lack of communication. [00:33:00] Absolutely. People can share a love heart or, you know, and it can mean the world to people how someone who goes on social media all the time. It means a lot to me. But Yeah, it's hard to explain. It's really hard to explain, and social media has made very bad people out of very good people. I think there's a lot of bitterness, but also that doesn't mean we we're not having fun. We're [00:33:30] having a good old time. But, um, coronavirus is going to affect the I think the queer community quite badly. Just because of, uh, social gatherings and drag shows being cancelled, a lot of theatre shows have been cancelled. Um, yeah, Let's just maybe talk about, um, COVID-19 coronavirus. We're now on the 19th of March 2020. 2020 nearly jumped ahead two years. Um, in New Zealand. Um, the [00:34:00] COVID-19 has just started having an impact over the last couple of weeks. It has been going kind of worldwide for a couple of months, and I think we're up to about 28 people infected. But, I mean, there have been some major things happening in the last week. In the last couple of hours, hour after hour. There's different news items. Can you give me a sense and maybe a sense for the people in the future what the feeling is like Now it's scary, and [00:34:30] it's sort of driven by the media again and social media. Um, there there's a lot. There's a lot of movies that people tend to watch people like movies like Contagion and World War Z and Zombies and you know, the end of the world. And you know, we've this the end of the world. Talk has been going on since the beginning of time. It's just always been like that, and we don't know if we're going to see a brighter day. But we [00:35:00] have all felt that way in our crisis. There is hope, but it's just about finding it and what we can do within our what we can do in our situation. We can't control everything. But what can we do for ourselves and the people around us? And the coronavirus has just made people scared, panicked about money, about jobs, about family, about the world, Um, [00:35:30] and now, with a lot of performance gigs, you know, for me, I'm a beneficiary as well. So it's, um it's bloody scary because a lot of our gigs have been cancelled. We don't know how long this is going to last, and we watch the news and, you know, it's just I've just stopped watching the news because it's just it's too much. I remember my mom, who I asked her about the AIDS crisis and how she felt. She was terrified. She got tested three times. [00:36:00] That's how scared she was. Not gay, Not at all. Um, but she was just scared, and she used to sit in her cupboard and rock because she was so terrified of it. That's what the media does. And they did it with, you know, aids as well. You know, you see that horrible one with the Grim Reaper with the bowling ball. That's media that's turning it into fear. Do you think the marginalisation and kind of isolation of people in the Rainbow Communities, uh, will [00:36:30] increase with with things like covid? It depends. I don't really know about COVID-19 as much as you know, that first discovery I had of it was just seeing random people in China just dropping to the floor dead, that that was scary. And then tonnes of people said, Oh, no, it won't be anything. It won't be anything. And it was, you know, I I think that we are [00:37:00] gonna be marginalised again and again and again and again. And now we see with Donald Trump and the silent majority, they are dominating. How do we do that? What do they do it for? They do it out of anger and look what it brings. Look what it causes. Look at the social impact. Look at the whole idea of it, and then look at gay people and we're starting to take that anger now, and [00:37:30] it's scary.
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