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Hi, I'm Dean. Um I'm just gonna read some stuff that I wrote pretty much at the moment. So whilst, um, desire for normative bodies is just taken for granted, whether that desire is like hetero or homosexual, um, desire for trans or other stigmatised bodies seen as possessing like non nor bodies, seems to reside in the category of weird or [00:00:30] at this, like, unintelligible or some kind of kink to most people in including the queer scene. Um, when this person desires, um, expresses desire for a trans woman in general, it is like regarded as a fit. Terms exist for such a desire, including training Shaka Admira, Training Hawk, Trans fan, Trans catcher. Um, the last one, which is the only one to actually involve, like, the little like Hatch. And it's [00:01:00] a newer term. Um, it's Yeah. It's a pretty much a gaggle of derogatory terms of having like some, um, and derogatory, and as they can be when they are seen as coming from CIS guys or anyone for that matter, whose ideas about Trans woman have come predominantly from trans porn and have never had any real encounter with a woman like myself. [00:01:30] Um, Yeah, I don't believe that It is the identity of the people who have the desire for transform, which gives terms like these being finished reading. Um, it's more about the fact that it's just about Trans and Trans are seen as being inherently fin or kink objects. Being a trans woman and having sort of a fetish object imposed upon me allows me very little social currency with which to work with much below the [00:02:00] object status placed over as a whole. Well, it's not only trans one who have such status that seems to be universal for all trans women. Um, so, um, in general, like, um, in a general way, this is how I see, like, you know, order of agency and object. Pretty much everyone kind of knows this stuff. I think where, um, although all of the categories are, of course, subject to other [00:02:30] discrimination and stigma placed on things like, um, colour and weight ability, sexual orientation and class. Um, as these ethnics lead to varying amounts of objectification and fetishization. Um, so guys have status and agency in our society, which holds C men as the norm from which non CIS men are judged by, um, in which, from which everyone else is judged [00:03:00] by as well, um, allowing them to be seen as subjective, to go unquestioned and to act upon others. Trans guys and trans masculine peeps begin to receive some of this agency, and so therefore, you aren't seen so much as being objects. But, of course, are objects that size for that as well. Um, I think, um, that within the queer and feminist [00:03:30] scenes that, um, masculine and um, butcher are also like, afforded more of this agency that, um, masculine in itself is in part about agency. It affords agency and gives people agency. Um whereas women are seen as objects to be acted upon, and and women are considered, um, to to be even more objects like, um, seem [00:04:00] to be like as complicit in their objectified status. Um, fewer men, um, have reduced agency and therefore can be acted upon and are more likely to receive, um, verbal and physical violence due to their non normative gender expression, which has the effect of slowly not seeing them as real men. And trans women, regardless of their flavour or specific gender expression, are seen [00:04:30] as objects just as women are, but with the element of being non normative about objects. And is this fear of being non normative objects in our society, which leads trans women to being seen as inherently fit desire for a finish? Objects such as myself pretty much can't be seen as anything other than non No. Um, even when even when people do express desire for me, [00:05:00] it can sometimes come with a heck of a lot of baggage. Um, it's is it really that hard to consider the possibility of the attraction to a Trans? And am I really that Unluck? Um, how many times am I going to here? I find you really attractive, but I don't know how it would work. Or I don't know what I would do with you Or how do you even have sex? Is my body that much of a mystery [00:05:30] like, isn't it like, you know, find the parts you like about my body and then touch the shit out of them. Mhm. If I'm not into it, then trust me. I'll tell you, um, my body may not be exactly like those that you've had experience with before, but it's still a body that can give a pleasure. Um, and how am I supposed to deal with this? The knowledge that even some people who I've considered friends ask [00:06:00] questions which insinuate that they don't understand my relationships, how people's minds bob at the very idea of sex and desire beyond normative male and female bodies. The specifics of such questions and the assumptions that drive them, are things I wouldn't be dealing with if I wasn't trans. In some ways, I feel sorry for people who feel the need to ask such questions, like how limited their imagination must be by socially constructed normative desire through the prevalence [00:06:30] of such thinking. Uh, though the prevalence of such thinking does make it an effort not to internalise these same ideas. But I can not be desired in any non way, but that there is no desire for me at all and thinking about this. I started thinking about how it was possible for me to have a healthy relationship. In fact, I've had many healthy relationships in the past with standing How is it possible for people? How is it possible for me to have a relationship that [00:07:00] is seen externally as being healthy and good. Good. Um, how is it possible to date a trans woman like myself and know that that can be good? That can be awesome. I mean, I'm a great girlfriend for real. How did someone who is interested in me deal with the fact that there's a proportion of PE a large proportion of people out there who will see the [00:07:30] relationship as a fetish relationship, or at least somewhat confusing the language available for them to describe? Their attraction is leading with derision. Sure, they can talk instead about their attraction to me, specifically, rather than attraction to trans women in general. But a lot of the time when that happens, I think the language that people use is the language, which is inherently sis language, like, [00:08:00] you know, it. It blankets over the like the fact that I am actually trans. I'm a trans woman. Um, no. And it kind of occurred to me while I was thinking about this, that I've never actually seen any form of media where a relationship with a Trans woman was depicted in a positive light. Mhm. I've seen. I've never seen in [00:08:30] the media a sexual relationship with a trans woman depicted in a positive light, and I pay attention to these things. Um, the media coverage of transwomen sexuality runs at two extremes, the first of which are like newspaper and magazine stories about trans women generally white, middle aged and middle class who were married before they transitioned and managed to stay together through such a traumatic change. Um, but are now really [00:09:00] nothing more than companions or besties with no sexual contact like completely desex ized. Um, the second, as you might well expect, is the mountains of trans women porn out there where trans women are fucked and fuck at anyone and everything, mainly for the consumption of straight malls. You know, best of both worlds. Very little secret, hyper sexualized. [00:09:30] Just as I sometimes feel that things like Disney and porn have strong connections to the way that we're taught to consider love and our sexual desires. A complete lack of representation within the former category and a complete overrepresentation in the latter leads to a knowledge of trans women, which eliminates our personhood. And it seems that sometimes within the queer scene that the way that, um, queer feminists attempt to deal [00:10:00] with the hyper sexualization of trans women is to move in the completely opposite direction to sexualize trans woman to see people not as sexual beings in order to move beyond or perhaps to not actually have to consider the things which function behind that fetishization and hyper sexualization, which again eliminates the personhood. And I kind of feel like this has to do with, like, misgivings about [00:10:30] attitudes to, um, pornography and sex work and sex workers. Yeah, at this point, uh, can you hear me? Yeah, that's right. Um, so when I thought about doing this thing that talk that, um, [00:11:00] yeah, my brain got in a real knot and it's it's not a knotted, So I'm just I'm just gonna What I'm gonna do is kind of, um, share with you some, I guess, stories or dynamics, and then present the knot, and then you can sort it out and and don't ask me. Yeah, um, so, uh, I guess I started thinking about the currency of desire because that's what she told me to think about. And, [00:11:30] um, and in a way, I guess, um, you know, queer and trans communities, um, or any I guess kind of marginalised group coming together is, in a sense, kind of one aspect is, is around the creation of desire and affirmation of ourselves and saying, Hey, yeah, we are cool. We're not How XY and Z portray us, you know? So there's there's a reclamation in a sense, um, and [00:12:00] and so I guess that has currency. And I think some of the the dangers become when we're like, yeah, it's so cool to be I don't know, I'm just be queer and and then this is how you have to be queer. And then this is how this is what is then desirable within being queer. And, you know, historically, I guess within queer um uh, you know, you you had to be butch and and then you weren't allowed [00:12:30] to be butch and you had to be endogenous. And then, you know, So there's been kind of different types of currency, and I think that we've we we can also see that throughout society. So you know, the the ideal woman now and then. Look at that 100 years ago. Look at that. 1000 years ago, that has changed. So we can kind of accept in some senses that our desire or at least mainstream desire maybe not. My desire, um, is constructed. So we understand that. And and that's why I think we [00:13:00] and and not only desire constructed, but I guess hatred is constructed as well. So we understand on that continuum, you know, if there's really bad images, really hateful images of a group of people, we understand that people see them and go, Oh, OK, I will think that these people are all terrible, you know? So we understand that that dynamic happens. I think it can be a bit tricky then when um, we like, oh, so that happens to those people. But that doesn't happen to me, because my desire [00:13:30] that I have is is pure, you know, it is. It's what I feel, you know. It's my personal preference that isn't tarnished or polluted by these mainstream concepts of, um what is beautiful, what is attracted, that kind of thing. Um, so that's when I got quite confused. So, um yeah, and I'll talk around the confusion a little bit. I think, Um, some ways I tried to [00:14:00] think through the confusion was, um I thought about demographics. So at some point, um, I grew up in Wellington and, uh, did anti racist stuff blah, blah, blah. And then at some point, I was like, Oh, man, most of the people I've dated have been white have been here and I thought, Oh, do do I find, um, Asian people attractive. And then I think at that stage I knew about four queer Asian people and I I was thinking, Oh, no, [00:14:30] I've I've internalised racism so much. And I've become completely colonised that to the extent my my whole desire has become colonised, and I can only find people attracted. And then I went on a trip to Sydney and the demographics there are really different. And I thought, Oh, you I don't don't have to worry about that. So I think sometimes, um So sometimes I think we can limit ourselves about what we might or might not be attracted to by kind [00:15:00] of what's around, you know? So if you only get, see one type of thing, how do you know that you might not like other types of people? So, yeah, I think that's an interesting thing around representation. Um, the other thing I was kind of thinking about is when we state, uh, I like these types of people. What are our motivations, or why do we Why do we do it or why do I do it? You know, um and then when? And then I think [00:15:30] the other thing that I thought and we had chuckle about this outside I was like, Oh, well, I guess if I had a push, I If someone asked, I identify as pansexual and I've always been attracted to people of both genders. And when I found out that there were more than two genders, I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, I. I understand that. And then I thought, Oh, but, you know, maybe that's my privilege. Maybe I don't I don't understand how you can place limitations, because [00:16:00] that's my experience. And then I thought, What if What if you are straight? You know what? If you are gay and you then does that become not legitimate? You know, Is there another kind of, um, limitation that people have placed in themselves? Or and then I don't. You know, I can't be like, well, straight people don't exist or whatever and and it. Yeah, I think it's tricky when we're kind of talking about desire. And we're talking about the limitations of that because then I think historically, [00:16:30] at least with lesbians, there's been a response of Oh, but how do you know? You know, maybe you just haven't met the right man all that kind of stuff, and and sometimes that languaging or or second guessing of of people. Yeah. So I think it's I I'm really confused about how when you state that you're into something, what that does, you know. So, um, I might say I'm really into these types of people. And what's my motivation for saying [00:17:00] that? Who am I saying that to? And does that exclude other people? So say that if I'm like, yeah, I'm really into gingerhead people. Does that mean that what I'm not saying is I don't like brunettes, you know, and sometimes it isn't. But there have been instances, I think, you know around, I guess train stuff where that's true. People have said, Oh, well, I'm only attracted to blah, blah, this type of people and this type of people [00:17:30] with the inference that that's that's not that and then the other way that I decided to have a think about. It was I thought about desire as a puddle, and I thought, Oh, no, that's a bit gross. I'll think about something more nice, like a river or something like that. So, um yeah. So where where I've kind of got to it at the moment is say that desire is like a river. But, um, we have, you know, um, a whole bunch of societal constructs [00:18:00] which, of course, don't affect me, but just affect those other people that aren't as enlightened as our communities. Of course. Um And And what of those those, um, barriers or those representations or those stereotypes? Blah, blah, bla bla, um are kind of well, like barricades or dams. Or, you know, so they direct desire in a certain way where that way might be. And so what would it look like if we [00:18:30] took? If we didn't have those, the river might still flow in a certain direction. It might be completely the same and, you know, but it might not not be, you know, because you don't want to kind of get into a position which you do get into a position, but it's a tricky position where you're like, Well, if you're attracted to I don't know what's a real, um, a stereotype to do If I'm not. I'm really attracted to tall, dark, handsome men that are able bodied CIS gendered middle class, um, with [00:19:00] not too much hair, but a little bit of hair to be kind of masculine enough and not bald. And, um, with you know, of who's 6 ft two, there'd be a tendency, I guess, to kind of say, Oh, your your desire is constructed, you know? And then is that kind of real stink as well, you know, to be like, Oh, no, you don't actually like those. You two don't actually like each other. It's just because you're you're operating off this, you know, mainstream, construct [00:19:30] of who is attractive. And that's how you found each other. And that's the only reason you like each other. So I think, yeah, I guess for me, that's kind of the tension that I'm quite confused about about, um, in a sense, uh, I guess, um, social constructs and our agency, and not that they can be separated out, But what is the What's the navigation or what's the the mission of our, you know, innate [00:20:00] pure desire and our personal preference, Um, to, you know, societal constructs. Because, yeah, I think you get that. You get it on grinder or, um, other dating sites where people like, you know, people say things like, Oh, you know, uh, no fat, no, no Asians Or, um, you know, and then when people have people up about it, they're like, 00, that's just my preference. You know, Don't start. Don't be Start pressing me about my preference. That's just a preference that I have. [00:20:30] I'm just not attracted to, you know. And so we we understand that there's that tension. So yeah, that's where I'm real real confused. Um, I'll just look at my other notes. Oh, and just kind of back to currency. I think it's important to, um, while we're uplifting, something that that uplifting has can set up its own dynamics. So sometimes you can get into a place where suddenly, um, you have to be sexual and then asexuals [00:21:00] are uncool. Or if you're talking about, um, poly or B DS M or, um, being vegan or not, a vegan how that then you know your participation in that new cool thing, which was marginalised. But because it's marginalised, then we like it. So it's cool. And then then if you're not into that, then you stink, and you're not as radical as everybody else. You know how that kind of, um, works as well? Um, [00:21:30] yeah. And then I think kind of back to why, Why we say, Oh, I'm really attracted to, you know, camp guys or I'm really attracted to Butch Woman. And And what are the power dynamics around that? And who are we saying that to and why? Why are we stating that? Because we do. You know, we have a goss up with our friends, and that's what happens. We're like, Oh, blah, blah, blah. You know, um, and I think thinking about, um, some of that [00:22:00] is just an expression, but I think some of that is also an exclusion. So when we think about the exclusion, um, how do we express that? And so I was kind of thinking about being Polly, learning to say to people instead of saying, Oh, yeah, you're cracking on me, and I'm sorry. I've got a partner. So when you're poly, you kind of have to say I'm not interested, you know? And it's it's pretty honest. [00:22:30] Hey, so so you don't say 00, sorry. You know, I'm I'm I'm not into brunettes. That's why we can't hook up. Yeah, so it's kind of some. I wonder if sometimes we make these categories and then say, uh uh to people and they're not actually about the categories. They're more about not being able to be like, Oh, hey, I just don't have that vibe with you, you know, or whatever. Yeah, And so that's the other kind of thing I was thinking about. Oh, yeah. And [00:23:00] then I got I got thinking about, um, straight people and gay people again, and, um and then the statement of that. So if I say I'm attracted to men, in a sense, it's kind of it's a huge generalisation that almost becomes untrue upon interrogation. So if I say I'm attracted to men, I'm I'm not attracted to most men, so you know, there will probably be a huge proportion of men I wouldn't be attracted to. Yet [00:23:30] I would still say I'm gay and I'm attracted to men or yeah. So then I was kind of thinking about all that, and I got really confused, and I was thinking, I'm Yeah, I'm glad I don't have to say all that stuff, but so yeah, don't ask me any questions, because I'm really confused. So that's all I have to say. Really? Yeah, [00:24:00] yeah, I'm just kind of like, um, like I thought, like, um, like, during today, I've kind of been thinking about this this panel, and like, kind of where it was kind of coming from with the the the question of like, um how desire is constructed around like nonna stigmatised bodies. And it kind of led me to, like, wonder [00:24:30] like, where is the space for me to actually even talk about my own desires? Like it? It really seems to me like a lot of time that as a trans woman, like actually, either people just like, make like assumptions or they just like, don't care at all like no one actually like, wants to hear about what my desires are [00:25:00] like, Yeah, and so it's I know it's kind of interesting to hear you like talking about, like, kind of like all the different kinds of desire that there is when, like, a lot of time, I think like, I've kind of internalised that myself to the point where I just don't feel like I can have desire. Do you mean like, I'm very concern about what your is like with a partner? Or do you mean, like, as a trans woman that people don't wanna make like friends [00:25:30] with? I don't want to talk about, you know, things like gossip about people you are into and thinking of things like that. Um, I mean, I guess they are. No, I think like, um like, I still involve myself and and like, kind of like talking about people that I kind of think, uh, hot or something, But like that, [00:26:00] I don't know like that. It's some kind of like either like, either it's either it's an internalised block or that, like, I don't actually have any. Like like, I don't even conceive of desire like that anymore. Or like I'm unable to like because of just like, I don't [00:26:30] know like that. If I consider things for like long enough, then I don't really think there's a single category of person that, like, I couldn't possibly find myself attracted to, um, so it could possibly be that or and But I also do feel that there is something in the way that I'm told that I should desire as a trans woman, which kind of allows me not to be able to fully express like like I know, like, [00:27:00] um, specifics. So categorical kind of things. I'll say something that I'll try and make my time. Um, I just wanted to, But you're not You tangle, um, and that, um, yeah, that thing of, like, category, you know, categories and non categories. And who you and saying what you're attracted to [00:27:30] or, um or not or because for most of my life, I've just been like it doesn't matter, you know? It's just the person. It's it's, you know, And then and then recently I was like, No, actually, it's not. You know, there's my desire at the moment and, you know, things change and is configured in particular ways. And it was really it was so liberating to discover that. And it was much more liberating than coming out was, or anything [00:28:00] else. Actually, anything else in my whole life it was fucking awesome. And, um and I did that, um um fam slam, you know, talk about birch and fam and and all of that stuff. And I had a conversation with a a really close friend afterwards who was just really, um, yeah, really challenging about that. Like, why do you have to put yourself in a category? Why do you want to be in a category? And I felt so uncool and so, [00:28:30] you know, because it was like, Yeah, it's not. Um yeah, that's that's how it felt. And for me, it's a category that, like IF, is a category that I've really resisted for a long time And then, like it's been kind of almost more of a process of getting over. Um, you know, shame and self hatred and all of those things that are coming out was and so it's sort of, um and that's that's just for me and I, a place [00:29:00] that I used to work for a long time ago when we did our training as mental health stuff, and, um, our boss had this saying where it was something like, I completely believe in what I'm saying at the time, and I also reserved the right to absolutely change my mind. And I think that, um, yeah, I've always remembered that. And I think, um, that kind of resonates me. But right, right now it's like, That's what Yeah, After a lifetime of not putting myself into a category and not getting [00:29:30] what I want, like, that's Yeah, that's for me Really important. Because I want to get what I want and you know, and have desire and have it satisfied. And, um, that's yeah, for me finding that's been really cool. Just part of New York. Yeah. Um, yeah, it was just because I've been talking a lot, um, recently about women only spaces, and I was wondering, [00:30:00] I'm gonna put this in the best possible way. But I was wondering how, having access to more women, women only spaces first, uh, having that experience that may not have been past your growing up as a child and like, the pyjama party thing. Or, you know, all that sort of fun stuff and or going to a bar and chatting to your girlfriends about you know, about that desire about that, what [00:30:30] you want or what you like And, you know, um, whether having access to that would actually maybe be a positive, Having have a positive impact on the way that you see your own desire and the way that you can express it, maybe, I don't know, like, um, I kind of feel like, at times that, um I mean, like, are you talking about like, Just like, like on a like, kind of, like, small level with like, [00:31:00] friends, or like, kind of like women's only space and stuff? Because, like all the times I find, like, women's only spaces to actually be some of the most like, kind of, um, anxiety driving spaces that I go into just, um, due to, um, kind of so much in the, um, dialogue, um, from, like, radical fans and stuff which completely like delegitimize me. So, um, [00:31:30] I think I meant on a social level rather than physical activity level. But yeah, I guess that that sort of thing happens in social spaces as well as um, yeah, I don't know. Let's try it. So as I was just wondering, try to move. I'll do a bit annoying thing where so, like, how? [00:32:00] How much of, um who is desired or how you desire people as to do who is painted as normal one who was painted as like we did. And I remember, um, you know, maybe 2009 having this discussion about like, uh, about race and about, um, you know, what are the racial stereotypes attached to, like lovers of different races and like there's a lot. But then, like with people, there is no stereotype because park could just work hard and be whatever they would be. And, um and then also, um, [00:32:30] and I think about that and also, um, so that, like, you know, particular so that, like, you know, the dominant culture is normal and all the everyone else is kind of weird in some way. That's like, Oh, that's interesting. Or like Oh, that's hard or whether it's like, Oh, and, um And then also I remember, um, discussing about watching Trans woman porn and being like, that's really hot. Oh, is everyone gonna think something bad about me? [00:33:00] Is everyone gonna think I'm being fishy? And then it's like, Well, that's really fucked, because if I was like, I like watching like porn, everyone will be like, Yeah, that's really normal and hot. And if I'm like I like watching trans like porn, that's also normal and hot and it's kind of like, but it might not be seen that way. And so there's this whole, like who is painted as normal people that we should be into and who's painted as, like, unusual, weird people or, you know, fetish or, um, for LA Yeah, I guess it's fair to say that people are, you know, that's a thing [00:33:30] that's a thing to be into Brown people, or it's a thing to be into, you know, like that sort of thing. So I guess in Crystal and I think there's also, like a whole, like dialogue around kind of desire, which makes things into fetishes as well. Like, it may not actually necessarily be a fetish, but it's painted as being that Yeah, yeah, [00:34:00] that. Because it's like, outside of like, you know, like the normative structures that it must be a fetish. Yeah, I was kind of thinking, um, yeah, two things. I was at the same conference in Sydney. Um, I went out to, uh, to found this other gay Asian guy, and this Aboriginal gay guy and we went out and, um, whatever. But at some point, we were kind of he was We were We were at the pub, and, um, the Asian [00:34:30] guy said to me, He's like, we're talking about who was in fashion, and, um and I. I can't remember who it was, but he was like, Oh, yeah, you know, Indian guys are so in right now and he's like, When are Asian guys going to be back in again? And the Aboriginal guy? So it's your turn. I know it'll come around. Don't worry. Um, and the the Aboriginal guy who was a bit older than us was like, Well, you guys were last decade and before [00:35:00] that, and he he I don't know, but he managed kind of list off, you know? First it was Middle Eastern guys. Then it was, um, Indian guys. Then it was Pacific Island guys. Then it was, you know, So it was this whole kind of who was in at at specific times based on whatever. And then we were like, Ah, when are white white guys in? We're like they're never in, you know, it was like Ha ha. but at the same time, they're never in because they're never out. You know, it's, um you are all there and we are the lookers where the [00:35:30] consumers will, you know, will put you in our shopping bag, that kind of thing. And I think there's definitely around activist communities where everyone's so, you know, hypersensitive to make sure they're an ally to everyone and everything. Um, then, you know, it's that thing about being invisible until you're hyper visible. You know, you're pushed aside until the spotlight comes down on you, sometimes simultaneously in a weird way. And then then you're like, [00:36:00] Oh, you know, are you Are you dating me to prove you're not racist or you dating me to prove you're not transphobic Or, you know, can I take this person off in my list on my Allied checks sheet to make sure that you know? But, yeah, I don't know. Who knows? It's all just confusing. I don't really think that happens with Trans Woman. It's too out there unless you get um, [00:36:30] I think the problem with talking about desire is that Trans women's bodies are so simple. And, um, there's so much gender sexualization surrounding genitals stuff that you can't think that, like the whole thing with, uh, the woman scenes where trans men are seen as, um, not violating your lesbian identity. That Trans Woman would be, [00:37:00] um, because that one small part of you is so masculine that apparently we just disembodied gentles. And that's what people were attracted to, apparently just disembodied. Yeah, I was kind of like, um, thinking about this a bit earlier, where I was like, um, you know, like like as like, a transform like we or like, [00:37:30] when is when? When do I get that space where I actually get to talk about my body like and like, apart from the times where, like, it's kind of like, forced upon me, you know, the the Times where, like, like, where? What are When do I get the times which are actually safe for me to talk about my body or for my body to be talked about? And those spaces are like so few and far between? [00:38:00] Um, I like pretty much like I find that the only space that I have for that is just with like, maybe like three or four people I know you know, like as soon as you know, you actually start. I don't know, Like I was thinking about like, um, how, like, it's OK for, like, uh, a system pretty much to be, like, suck my dick, you know? And that's like, really empowering or something for some people, you know. But if I'm just, like, [00:38:30] go suck my dick, then like people immediately kind of go Oh, that's awkward. You know what? Because I actually have a dick And like Like, why is it like that? You know, how is that so awkward? You know, like, why is there so much stigma around like my body, you know, like, where is the space where I actually get to, like, own and be in full possession of my body, where I don't have to, like, be in denial about what my physicality is like? [00:39:00] Yeah, pretty much that's That's the That's the only space. But then even there, there's so little, you know, we serve here and don't really often necessarily get the chance to come together and talk about that sort of stuff that we don't even really know how we describe our It's like, um, [00:39:30] I don't know, some people may have seen the comment. I looked on the website, but like, uh, and some dialogue, which has emerge, Um, like they were surprised that some trans women don't actually refer to that party. I know that, Yeah, I mean, even [00:40:00] a Chinese people is, is not, is just Such people are terrified of well, and I think, like sometimes, you know, like when you rename body parts sometimes it's about, like, kind of reclamation of gender. But also it's about, like, kind of normalising things as well. For other people, like, you know, like to [00:40:30] talk about like my generals, like as my and stuff. It's like kind of like empowering because it, like, kind of like, you know, like, kind of feeds into, like my own idea and my status of my identity as a woman. But at the same time, it's it's really like eccentric, mhm time here. I've been thinking about listening apple being terrified of your body [00:41:00] and trying to put it into a normal things, Um, and like body modification in general, just concerned about what your home body is doing. You just want to do something you want to get a tattoo. You want some words I find similar to me? Um and, um, I really hate the word being your word de transition. Like, um, I think it's a scare tactic. Scare tactic. Word [00:41:30] used often, Um, by people who want to put off your transition. Um, like, if I wanted to transition be transitioned whatever you want. If I wanted to transition to be a female, I won't be able to do that right now. And I don't want anyone to talk about Oh, look what you've fucked up your body. You shouldn't have transitioned. You shouldn't have been taking testosterone like whatever. This is my fucking body. It's not ruined. Um, yeah, and that's I think that's [00:42:00] about hating your way. Um, yeah, I think it's a big thing in the media as well. At the moment, they're actually on the hunt for people who are, like, de transitioning and stuff so that they can, like, kind of scare more like, create more kind of like bad press for trans people and trans like medical practises. Um and yeah, that's kind of terrifying. Um especially like I mean, if you like, [00:42:30] I don't know, I guess because It's like completely blown out of proportion. You know, it's because the the number of like, you know, if you look at like, kind of like statistics and stuff about the number of people who actually who like, kind of don't feel comfortable once they have transitioned and, like, you know, like and choose to like transition again. That versus number of people who it actually like has such benefits for It's like, you know, it's like [00:43:00] you know. So there was a question at the front. Yes, I thought, I don't know this. I just I. I think I was thinking when you were speaking about about Messiah. You know how it's, you know, today as currency and it's, um, yeah, like I don't, [00:43:30] um, like, I find it really hard to find myself desirable, like That's not That's not something I and it's not something that's you're not available to me. Images of myself as desirable don't you're not really out there. Well, there are some of them, but but because there's so many negative ones, it's like the ones that are out there are just triggering now, like, [00:44:00] you know, if I do see trans women represented as attractive. It's That's something. I've seen it because it's because I don't I don't believe it. And I think that that's I guess. I mean, I suppose this is a question like How did like in terms of having perhaps developing culture here weird just isn't so. You know something you trade as much as isn't so good, you know, isn't about power [00:44:30] like, Hm. I think that that's, you know, not not being desirable isn't just about you know how other people perceive you, I suppose, and how I I don't get I don't get a whole but it's, I don't know, maybe other people have thoughts on that. It's not something I've talked about with other people. I like [00:45:00] to hear them. I think it's sometimes really hard to like find yourself desirable when, like all of the constructs around where you might be desirable. I like things that you find really kind of incredibly problematic structures. Um, [00:45:30] yeah, I don't know, like, I think it's like an incredible, like kind of fight, like as or something like as a transform to actually try to believe that you're attracted [00:46:00] just because there is so much like negativity and stigma. Um, I guess my question. That's also I guess it's kind of bad thing. I was thinking about how, um, there's been a lot of, I guess, with feminism and stuff. There's been a lot of, uh I mean, like, just technology that actually get pushed out a whole lot of like, the main, Um, But then, like so there's been a lot of like, [00:46:30] um, self empowering around sex and desire and stuff by being all like, um, by having heaps of stuff about heaps of black body positive stuff and heaps of talking about Oh, you know, we can say that we can and we can talk about the ways that we like being fucked and like all the ways that we like to fuck and kind of, um, a lot of you know, there's a lot of or in circles that I've done. There's a lot of like talking about that stuff, and I was thinking about how there's not a lot of that, [00:47:00] you know, not like I don't hear a lot of that happening with um, particularly with trans women, also with transpires that, like maybe so much less extinct because a lot of Trans guys are coming out of those lesbian kind of or those like, um, those? Yeah. Yeah. So there's like, quite a lot of, uh, maybe or like for me anyway, [00:47:30] like, you know, um, I've come from lots of queer women, queer women being like Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, This is the way that we like, And this is how we like to be loud about it, and we're gonna be naked or be naked in the letters. So, like as a trans Mexican person, I'm really, really comfortable with talking about my body with being naked, blah, blah, blah, and with doing that in quite a public way, And I have a lot of support for that. But then, like, um, it seems like for trans on, there's not [00:48:00] that, you know, like, there's a lot of, um, a lot of that same community are not, um, you know, like, some of it's very I mean, I guess it's that gender essential thing, Probably that you're talking about New Zealand where it's, like, really like yay and yay, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is great, and cats are great. But also it's really like of people who I would say have a vagina. But I'm gonna say I'm actually I'm born with a vagina. [00:48:30] Um are all like Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's there's kind of a, um you know, like what you were saying about how being like I'm into this automatically says I'm not into everything else. It's kind of like, you know, there's a lot of like, yeah, like, where is that space where transformer can be like, This is what my body's like and this is how I feel about it. And yeah, it's fucking awesome. And like, and space where everyone's like Yeah, fuck, yeah, that that's crap. You know, I guess I Yeah, obviously [00:49:00] it doesn't exist and you, like, on its own, But like, um, that the the having space to talk about your own body and having other people being like, yeah, those are good bodies, you know, is really fucking empowering. And like being able to talk about the ways that you like being sexual and stuff is really empowering. I really want that to I really want that to exist a whole lot more. You know where we [00:49:30] don't make those kind of other than where we where we have space for? For all things, you know, space and where that's all held and all way. Yeah, Yeah, that'd be great. I, I don't know, like I. I mean, when when you're, like in a community, which is like, um you know, like, divided as to whether you should even be taken seriously, like, [00:50:00] you know, like, how How's that actually gonna happen? Yeah, Um, five more minutes. So there is there any other questions or comments on? I just want to make a comment. Uh, mostly about what you were talking about. Why social norms mesh with our desire. And it's hard to know. [00:50:30] Um, you know how to separate the two. And I think that, um, gender expression can be thought of in a similar way. And yeah, like, you know, certain expressions have certain advantages in society. Yeah, I hope you. Yeah, that might own a small [00:51:00] Yeah, so Yes. OK, um, I'd like to think about how attraction changes over time and how that maybe part of the way you can figure out what you're actually into as opposed to what society or your friends or with your culture thinks you should be into is watching how your desires change and your [00:51:30] experiences and who you meet. And I don't know if I'm formulating this very well. But people see the idea. I put your hand up now. Um, yeah, this is just a comment for, like, some of the people in the room, like, people have gone through stuff that, um the only times I feel like I have been [00:52:00] in social currency is not so not how you feel. So when I'm gender fucking, and that's what I should, but that's it. It's not it. Then, um, so I don't want to fuck all the time. Um, yeah, but I wish I had kind of, like, you know, like, got a lot of the [00:52:30] affect. Your comments. Oh, I wish they weren't. So I wish I wasn't sexualized. Like and I know often it comes from the the best place. He, um like, and it's my friend's family. That's really cool that you cross or like, you know, I just, um yeah, but I don't do it anymore, And it's probably every time [00:53:00] I'm, like, really happy with my own appearances. But, you know, I can't do it up there safely and they can't do it. They here safely. I think some of that is to do with stuff that de talked about about cross dressing, making [00:53:30] hyper sexualization that it's like it feels appropriate to say, Wow, Mark, you look hot when you're wearing hot pants in a way that wouldn't perhaps feel appropriate to say that, you know, it gives a permission, I guess. Which is quite. I think it was just fear of speaking. Can I say I'm [00:54:00] just gonna say something about, um, you know, with what? In my experience, you know, with sex and desire and intimacy, you actually, we have to be able to fuck it up. You know, we have to be able to make mistakes and say the wrong thing. And, um, friends be forgiven and get to know each other. And, um, yeah, because otherwise it's like you can't ask for anything and you're too scared and and for me when I'm too scared, because [00:54:30] I'm gonna say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing or touch the wrong thing or whatever. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing fucking happens because it's like you're not actually communicating and there's no intimacy, and it's just frozen and no one's gonna come and no one's going to have a good time. That's what I'm really interested in is like, How do you create that space? Which is Yeah, is safe and is loving and is compassionate and is informed, but also where you can fuck up Because I know with my [00:55:00] lovers that is the only way we've got to any kind of intimacy. And I've fucked up heaps of times and said the wrong thing and you touch the wrong thing So you know, whatever. And it's like that to me, that conversation about that that is intimacy and yeah, yeah, I think it's, um you know, we think we know what bodies are like because our society tells us, you know, this is what this kind of person [00:55:30] is like. And it's such crap, you know, because it's not until you are intimate with someone that you don't know. No one's good and bad, you know, because it's like every it. Every new person you meet is completely different anyway. And I'm guessing we need to break up. All right. Thank you.
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