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So what I'm gonna talk about today is briefly, I'm gonna talk about, like, policing health practises, um, and ideas of health. And I wanna talk about really, really quickly, like individual policing of that and structural policing of that. And I'd like to talk a little bit about, um, the disabled or nonconforming body. I'm gonna use my experiences here a little bit and talk about kind of exclusion of people. Um, sort of So, yeah, it's kind of gonna start like, Oh, hi. [00:00:30] Um, yeah. So I'm gonna just start talking about health and how people plus police then and then if you don't have the right kind of body, then you know kind of what happens in public spaces. Um OK, so, um, I I'm really interested in the idea of, like, policing health practises because, um, I became sick as a sort of child and, um, sort of. From then on, there was lots of kind of like, you know, you've got you've got to sort of try. And there's a lot of kind [00:01:00] of narratives about how like health is really important. And one reason I was hoping I wouldn't be the first person to talk because I was hoping someone would talk about, um, kind of narratives around health and how that's really important. Um um, as opposed to other narratives around the body. Um, but actually, I kind of want to challenge narratives about how that, um, it's a positive narrative that we have about our bodies because, um, well, I don't believe that health is under our control. [00:01:30] For one thing, um, and I think that I've sort of had a lot of experience of, you know, kind of having my sort of while, you know, people have not been like, Oh, you can stop being You can stop having a chronic illness or anything like that. There's lots of ideas about, you know, Have you tried, um, this diet? Have you tried this therapy? Have you tried, um, doing this? And then, of course, you know, there's that whole like, Oh, yeah, they don't eat that. It's really unhealthy. [00:02:00] Oh, it's so great you're eating that it's really healthy. Um, and it's quite, um, full on, and I think quite a negative thing. Um, and I think that there are kind of there's individual policing of that kind of stuff. But there's also structural placing of that. So, um, sort of like, you know, individually, It was kind of like, Oh, you know, this week this is my mum. Oh, this week is still where we're not gonna eat gluten or we're not gonna eat dairy. Or we're gonna try this, um, [00:02:30] disgusting health thing, which is, like, revolting like medicine you have to take and they can throw up and it'll be like, Oh, no, that's terrible. But maybe we should try it a little bit longer to see the, um And I think that's, um, problematic. Um, and it's not just kind of, um, uh, sort of bodies that are kind of presented with this narrative, but, like, you know, like, Oh, it's so good. And there's a piece of morality in this story. That's why I wrote [00:03:00] I kind of started off with, like, I've got one word that's right. Perfect for that. Um, so there's lots of kind of, um, you know, like it's really good. It's a really good thing to kind of do stuff for your house and, um and it's not that good. If you were doing stuff which is bad for your health. Um, and that kind of so yeah, um, on an individual level, that's really I found damaging, but, um, also, [00:03:30] structurally, there's a lot of there's a lot of push to be doing the right thing, doing the healthy thing, doing the moral thing. Um, you know, we've got to be good citizens, and we've got to, like, exercise and eat right and not smoke and do this and do that. And, um um, you know, we're punished if we, you know, we're kind of punished by individuals and by society, if we don't do the moral thing, um and and that can be just kind of disapproval, Um, [00:04:00] but it can be a lot more than that. You know, like, if you there are kind of really serious consequences to not meeting kind of health moral health standards, which are like, you know, if you if you smoke, then you can't have this medical procedure kind of thing. You know, like you're doing something bad for your health. So we're not gonna give you this, um, sort of treatment or that kind of stuff? Um, you know, if you're above a certain BM I you can't have IVF treatment, that kind of stuff. You know, we're [00:04:30] like you. You have an unhealthy body. So therefore, there are gonna be, like, kind of structural consequences. It's gonna be kind of real, real consequences, sort of in the world. Um, and that kind of stuff so wanted to talk about that. I'm just trying to think I'm trying to. It's quite hard to figure out how much I can talk about the stuff, Uh, for 25 minutes. Ok, um, maybe I'll move on [00:05:00] to the next bit, and then just see where we get to. Um I think that, um, so the Yeah, so there's a lot of pressure of kind of having a healthy body and, um, doing healthy things. Um and you know, like, I can actually I just wanna say Like, I think on an individual level, it's really complicated, because often people who, um, you know, like, say, try and sort of place your health, and that kind of stuff [00:05:30] can often be really close to us. And that's really complicated. Um, but I kind of actually don't think that we have a responsibility to be healthy to anybody else. Like, you know, I don't think. I mean, I guess it's more complicated when you start thinking about you know, your Children and stuff like that. But I don't think there are many circumstances and I. I think the whole thing is like, really interesting, and I don't know, but, um, I yeah, I don't think that we owe it to anybody to be healthy. And [00:06:00] I don't think we owe it to the state. And I don't think we owe it to people in our lives either. Um, so, um, I also kind of want to talk about, uh, my some more. Some kind of personal experience. I've had a flat kind of If you if you don't meet, you know, if you're not healthy or if you don't have a healthy body or you don't have a body that conforms to society, then, um, there you are excluded [00:06:30] from society. So you've failed. That kind of you've failed that bar of being healthy kind of stuff. So, um yeah, I. I sort of give some examples of that kind of stuff. Um, I mean, there's kind of, like, lots of stuff that's come up. I guess in my life recently about kind of um, sort of structural exclusion from, um stuff which is, like, access to places, kind of physical access to places. [00:07:00] And when I talk about disability, usually I like talking from my own personal experience of, like, physical disability. But, um, that's not, you know, obviously the only way that people are, um, excluded either because of disability or because of other things. Um, so there's kind of the sort of structural stuff about, um being sort of physically excluded from places, uh, that Say [00:07:30] human beings want to be in, um and, you know, like, you know, I'm I'm very unlikely to be excluded from places like sort of hospitals or libraries and that kind of stuff, which is really important, But I'm a lot more likely to be excluded from places like bars. Um, and it's kind of like this narrative about what kind of bodies should be And what places. Um, yeah. So, you know, there's no kind of requirement to have, um, sort of non-public buildings [00:08:00] be accessible, and lots of public buildings are not accessible either. Let's face it, but, um, yeah, there's kind of which, you know, like it. It creates another narrative about who deserves to be and what places. Um and, you know, I like going to bars, and I like going to music venues, and I like doing that kind of stuff. But, you know, this whole kind of like, uh, yeah, I guess people are kind of put into there are some things which are essential. And then there's non essential stuff, which some people it's [00:08:30] OK to be exploited from. Um, and I don't think that's cool. Um, and yeah. So I was gonna say something else about that. I can't believe my thorough notes didn't cover it. Um oh, yeah, I wrote. I wrote my, um I wrote my thesis on, um and I think this is another really cool example of that stuff, which is, um, I. I wrote my thesis about disabled driving, which is really exciting stuff. Um, [00:09:00] and, um, one of the people who I interviewed for my faces Oh, hi, K. Um, was, um, talking about how, um and they there were these car parks and this was in Auckland and they had these car parks, which were mobility car parks. And it's really important and blah, blah, blah, blah. I can go on and on, but these mobility car parks were only mobility car parks from, like, eight o'clock in the morning till six o'clock at night. Um, [00:09:30] and it's it's the whole thing of, like, you know, yes. Disabled people might have to leave the house during the day to go to things like doctor's appointments, And I don't know other things where they can be scrutinised. But, you know, you don't go out at night time, and, you know, you don't want to be in public spaces in the evening where you might be doing something frivolous, like socialising with people. Um, so, yeah, I thought that was really shit. Sorry, I'm going through time. Um, you know, that's really bad. And then there's individual. I just want to talk really quickly. [00:10:00] Is it OK about individual exclusion from public spaces? And, um, I think it's really complicated, but one of the ways that I I've experienced this in lots of ways, But one of the ways that I think is really, uh, damaging is, um or it's been really upsetting is when people, um, comment on my body and public spaces. So, you know, I do go out to bars and music venues and stuff like that. But, um, you know, you know, some drunk [00:10:30] guy will come up to me and you know what's coming next? He asked me. Really? Um, sort of intimate and intrusive and upsetting questions about my medical history and my just, you know, um, experience of being disabled. And it's that whole thing of like and you know, other examples of that are like people coming up to me and being like, Oh, can I Can I pray for you or, you know, like there's all kinds of ways that you can be individually kind of [00:11:00] on a one on one level, be kind of pushed out of public spaces. And I think that's really important one. I'm sure lots of people experience that. And it's not just something that people experience because of disability. I think there are lots of kind of non conforming bodies where, you know, um and I think a lot of women experience this. Um, where you know your body is is to be commented on, um, in public spaces. And then I think that really pushes people out of you know, the community or, you know, like [00:11:30] it makes you know, It reminds you that you there's a There's an element that you don't really deserve to be in public And that kind of stuff. And, yeah, I should stop talking now because they're excited people to come. So thank you. Is this OK? I'm not very good at talking to microphones. I may try just to project my voice outwards. Um, so I had two plans. I was I was going to talk about the day, but I think what I'm going to talk about because it seems timely, is, [00:12:00] you know, two days ago or a few three days ago. There's this horrific racist cartoon about, um, fat poor people who are eating all the Children's food, and it's their about poverty. Um, and obviously that cartoon came from explicitly right wing and racist and reactionary place. And what I want to talk about is the left wing version of that dialogue. And what I want to talk about is the left wing version. What I call it is we have to hate poor people's bodies to save them. The the the the left wing, where this [00:12:30] all comes from, and kind of how it's constructed. And when I'm gonna start, um, so just briefly, there's a longer left wing history of associating that with capitalism, which goes back to something that goes back to the 16th century, which is the idea of, um, gluttony and a moral body. I'm not really going to talk about that today. It exists. It is obviously, now completely counter to any narrative reality. Um, that, you know, the associating that with [00:13:00] capitalism. But it does sometimes complicate things, so I might bring that in later. Um, what I want to talk about today, um, is is the both the association of fact and, um um, and and the working class people and fact and and that being the reason for maybe detrimental for detrimental for the reason that working class people's lives are shitter than middle class people. [00:13:30] And what I want to talk about is the way that health is constructed in that. So when I was when I was thinking about this, what kind of my classic example of that cartoon as I have observed it happening in real life left wing people, um was when I was up in the at the depositions for operation eight, which kind of tied it with a motion for me but may not mean that much for for a lot of people here. But anyway, um, so it So it was part part of the raids and part of all that kind of stuff. And there were all these people around [00:14:00] and a group of people had provided food. Um, and I could talk about that, but, um what? What Interesting about the food. The food was quite familiar to people who moved in urban pakeha circles. But whether or not they were pakeha, the food was familiar to them. And it was wasn't familiar to people from to to people who lived in who could come up from. And there was a a young Maori woman. Young, you know, recently, fat Maori woman with four Children who took them to Burger King. [00:14:30] And she came back. And a thin, older white woman who was totally used to authority was talking about the delicious food she was. And the young Maori woman said, Ah, I took my kids to Burger King, and the older white woman said, Well, at least you're ashamed of that, that, um and that is not at all unusual. Um, that idea that, um [00:15:00] basically that people don't know what decisions they're making. They're not making the right decisions. Um, is is something that I see all the time. I kind of want to break down the process, break down kind of the fallacies or break down What's wrong with that narrative? And I'd say the first thing I wanna say is with this idea of healthy, um, and the idea that there is this un healthy is a quality in things, not a relationship to our bodies and our needs. [00:15:30] So food gets labelled as healthy, not depending on what you, um what on you and what you need and where you are. But and and like in the total sense in an emotional sense and a financial and all that kind of sense, but as an intrinsic quality of the food. And, you know, there are some really obvious examples of that. I am hideously allergic to dairy products. You know, yoghurt. Low fat yoghurt is like a classic health food. There's a whole Sarah Haskins video about it, which I recommend you look at if you have it, because it's amazing. But, um, there's a whole [00:16:00] video about yoghurt is the ultimate health food. And obviously, um, if I ate it, you know, I should eat anything before I ate that yoghurt. You know, um and that's that's just one example. But obviously, you know, again, if we go back to the kids who are eating Burger King, food that they eat is healthier for them than food that they don't eat. And and there's a classic example of you know that often people, if you if you if you say, Oh, you you're going, you're going to rush around all day and you have an apple and a an apple and a chocolate bar. What? What should you eat? [00:16:30] And people say, Oh, you should that apple to be healthy. And of course, the answer is, if you can, you should both because you need a lot of calories to last you for all day. So there's lots of examples where food and things get labelled as healthy. Um, and I think that that the important thing is to just reject that label entirely, that there is, um, you know, and talk about the relationship between people and things. But it's more than that because, really, specifically, what gets labelled healthy is [00:17:00] middle class things, middle class food, middle class activities and the classic example again from the same set of experiences. Um, most nights on that food was cooked, uh, by older Maori women who cooked food that they were familiar with. One day, um, they went to to a course and they didn't cook, and some other people did cook. And they made a pasta salad with rye with pasta and, like, vegetables and [00:17:30] all the stuff. And, um, it was really and everybody there. Um, including the including the woman who normally cooked went on about how healthy it was. Nutritionally, it's no different in profile from Fry, and but because it was food, it had been labelled healthy. And there are, you can think of all sorts of examples that is a really amazing blog posts about, but from G, basically because I think it's expensive, expensive enough, it gets called healthy by this guy called, [00:18:00] who has about like $5 bags of chips that are sold in common sense organics, which are all about how moral they are and how stone ground they are and all this kind of stuff. And of course, um, that association with with middle class and healthy, that was, you know, that was actually a huge at the time was a huge revelation to me because I was so used to I guess what I was used to having grown up as a a middle class kid is the idea that what I did naturally was healthy. [00:18:30] You know, like that the food that was natural came naturally to me and the food that I naturally cooked that, you know, within the space of everything else that that was healthy and nutritious and would would would, um um would kind of kind of had that kind of label. And I don't realise that that process of of thinking about that kind of excluded a whole bunch of other people from labelling their food that way and labelling their home food that way [00:19:00] and that the the food that is not middle class ends up getting pathologize. Um, and I guess the third thing I want to say about that is to suggest that this has a huge impact on people's well-being. Um, it's a little bit academic, and this is a really amazing study of which was done in the eighties, but of of where they went to two hotel chains and in one hotel chain, they, they, they they showed them both this thing about the virtue of exercise. And [00:19:30] they were showing it to the maids who are basically, you know, walking, stripping beds, doing things for 7.5 hours a day. OK, first, what's interesting is some of them said that they did know exercise. Um, and and any study you see about the benefits of exercise will be about the benefits of leisure exercise. Um, and that's what gets classified as exercise and the fact that workplace exercise is both different and much more not like like, like likely to have the same effects and more likely to damage your body and blah [00:20:00] blah blah and leave you unable to do, you know, with any energy left to do and leisure exercise. So first, it's interesting that these people who these women who are working 7.5 hours a day, um, lots of them consider themselves doing no exercise. But the other thing is which I just find fascinating, really important is that these women, um, they gave they talk. They talked to one group generically about the benefits of exercise, and they talked to the other group about the benefits of exercise [00:20:30] and said, And the government particularly recommends stooping and the sorts of things that you're doing. And then they came back a month later, and in all sorts of health measures, the people who've been told that what they were doing is healthy were doing better. So the process of of labelling, middle class, what is open and accessible and available to middle class people does actual damage. It is a process whereby you say this is this is healthy and this is not and it's a process exclusion [00:21:00] And it's a process of claiming a lot of the kind of benefits, the social benefits of the label healthy, a lot of the kind of placebo benefits and all that kind of stuff to middle class people and exclude them to working class people. And I guess, um, II, I guess the other thing I want to say which is possibly going up a bit tangent. But it's a it's a quite a recent process, the the it's been getting worse when it comes to fat bodies. The pathologist of fat fat bodies has [00:21:30] been getting worse in the last 10 years. And I want to argue that that is a result of Third Way at least partly a result of Third Way politics that, um the, uh if you look at the history of, um which I've done a little bit of research into, um, if you look at the history of of, um, uh, poverty and health and bodies. Um, in the 19 nineties, the national government said, Well, it's their fault, [00:22:00] you know? It was straight up. It's, you know, if if poor people had the worst, it's their fault. You know, it's a personal responsibility, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then the obesity epidemic, Obesity epidemic as a thing as a construct that exists, Um, not being fat, um, that was basically invented in New Zealand under the labour government. And what I think was half what, what what happened? And I think there's quite a lot of evidence from this. If you look at the kind of health, the public [00:22:30] discourse of health around it is that they looked around and they saw that there were massive inequalities and these inequalities were affecting people's health. And rather than saying and there was no willingness by the latest Labour government to do any kind of massive redistribution of wealth or to address the inequalities and so but they But they weren't prepared to just feel like it's individual people's fault. So the obesity epidemic became a way that they could appear to be addressing things structurally but actually blaming individuals. And it has, [00:23:00] and it has that it has. It's that I think its purpose is to appear to address things structurally but actually put responsibility for divergent outcomes and things and and individuals. And, you know, um, I probably could go on with examples, but I, I Yeah, I guess the last thing I want to say is that this isn't new. Um, I. I do research. And if you look at Welsh mining villages of the 19 thirties and forties, um, they [00:23:30] had incredibly incredibly poor health statistics compared to the rest of the country, they had women were living shorter life spans than which is always a sign of really bad health because, um, because of the dangers of childbirth and all that kind of stuff. Um, and, um, you get lots of middle class people at the time Contemporary saying, Well, it's because the mothers don't know how to shop and everybody went on strike in 1926. And the Children are doing better because they're better fed by these interfering like by the by the school boards, because the mothers are feeding the bread and [00:24:00] jam. And that's not healthy and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And the thing is, you know, I mean, I'm not saying the, uh if we if we go forward 30 years, say, when there were still money valleys. Um, but the, you know, 30 years later, 40 years later, the Welsh money valleys do not have as much as discrepancy. There's been a huge increase in, um, increase in, uh, in in in general well being and longevity and all those matters of longevity. And you can bet that those mothers were still feeding their kids bread and jam because Britain and Jan is awesome. Um, and the difference was the structural [00:24:30] changes that have been made around having hot water in the house and all those sorts of things, and then if you actually you know you can't hate poor people's bodies To save them, you have to believe that people are the best decision makers in their own lives. And the only way to actually make real change in health outcomes is to make structural changes in the way society is. [00:25:00] You have can change it. I should have said well-being. I don't like the word health. I feel like well-being and longevity is like, more specific and less scappy. Yeah, OK, awesome. Ok, um so I kind of wanted to start out by talking a bit about the way that our culture views the human body and by extension, the way that we view things like health and fitness and [00:25:30] disability and food. And I'm going to use an example. If you have science fiction, I'm gonna use an example from Torch Word which, um, I haven't watched it. It's a spinoff of Doctor Who and it's about a covid British government agency who deal with matters of extraterrestrials and time travel and other science fiction type things. Um, and the particular episode that I wanted to talk about is about a pharmaceutical company that creates this magical called [00:26:00] which cures every disease and every illness. Um, and the way it works is that it resets your body back to its factory settings. I think that's really fascinating the idea that the human body has factory settings because, as we all know, people are not created on a mass production line in a factory. So what does it mean to say that we have factory settings? It's like saying there's [00:26:30] this particular way that a human body is meant to be and that your brain is meant to be. And I hear that a lot of the way that people talk about bodies. Um, you know, I hear people talk about the way that bodies are intended to be and the capabilities that your body is supposed to have. So it's things like humans weren't meant to eat this kind of food or, you know, a person your age should be capable of doing this type of physical labour or humans weren't intended to live in this particular [00:27:00] place. Humans weren't meant to go and live in outer space. I screw you and when. What this does is that it constructs this idea that any body with any kind of physical or neurological impairment or even is a wrong body because it doesn't fit its factory settings and therefore it needs to be fixed. Um, and it's kind of an illogical discourse. I mean, I'm an atheist. [00:27:30] I've subscribed to a theory of evolution. Um, and that tells us that diversity in terms of genetic physio, physiological and neurological diversity those are really, really important for our survival as a species. But even if you believe that humanity was created by a benevolent, omnipotent high power, then you really do have to trust that that power knows what it's doing, and that human variation is there for a good reason. So the the [00:28:00] question that we need to ask is, Why is this idea about a way that the human body is intended to be so popular? Who's benefiting from it? And what kind of social impact does it have, especially on people whose bodies don't fit that model? Um, because we're kind of two dominant negatives around illness and disability, and one is like the disabled person is an object of pity, you know, like like was saying about [00:28:30] the street, thinking that she needs them to pay for her. So, you know, it's like, Oh, you poor, helpless victim of fortune. You need a And then, of course, you have, um, the idea of certain bodies of objects of contempt which, um, you see applied a lot to like fat people. You know, people who are victims of the obesity epidemic. Um, you know, so it's kind of like [00:29:00] it's your own fault that your body is young. If you just had the right attitude and worked hard enough, you could overcome this. And that's often not just about bodies, but it's also about poverty, you know? And and that's exactly what a bit Cartoon was saying is like Oh, poor people are just poor because you're stupid and spend all their money on alcohol and cigarettes and gambling. And that's something that we constantly hear is that poor people have health problems [00:29:30] because we're stupid. We're lazy. We don't take good care of our bodies. And I think that cartoon probably did voice something that a lot of middle class I really do believe on the service. One time I was listening to national radio. They were interviewing an expert on nutrition about child poverty and He explained that oat meal and delivery are foods that are very high in protein and also very cheap. [00:30:00] So poor people's kids would be fine if they just fed their kids livery and oat meal. Come on told me when I was a kid, I was a really, really fussy eater, and I refused to eat fruit or vegetables and most kinds of meat, and my dad used to get so weird and frustrated that he'd tell me Food is medicine. You don't have to like it. Just eat it because it's good for you, which really is not how it works. People have machines, and food is more [00:30:30] than just fuel. We don't just need it to be Intuit. We need it to taste good, and we probably need more variety than just oatmeal and liver. Those aren't frivolous things, you know. It's not about people being picky or spoiled. It is a good evolutionary user. For them, food that tastes good is likely to be food that's safe for you to eat, and that contains the nutrients that we need, the most of which is fat and carbs and protein. And there's also a good evolutionary reason why most of us get bored if we eat the same [00:31:00] thing all the time. Because the wide range of food you eat, the more likely you are to have all your nutritional needs met. So not wanting to live on liver and oatmeal is very reasonable. The idea that people can control their health and that therefore you should blame people for being unhealthy is expressed in different ways. Sometimes you hear it, you can manifest your destiny with your thoughts. So positive thinking is the way to go, and other times [00:31:30] it's that you can get what you want by P. And maybe if you have health problems, it's because you have displeased God in some way and you're being punished. Um, and I think the most common one, actually in Western culture is the idea that you can overcome poverty or disability or illness through sheer willpower and determination and hard work. And what all of these have in common is the idea that if you are disabled or if [00:32:00] you are sick, it's your own fault. And the idea of blaming for individuals for her problem, like Grace pointed out, is really consistent with neoliberal ideology. which was all about dismantling collective responsibility and replacing it with individual responsibility. Um, so you know that famously said that there is no society, there's only for individual. And if there's no society, then I guess there's no such thing as social responsibility. It's a really convenient idea because [00:32:30] it lets us off the hook when it comes to supporting other people. You know, like, why should my taxes pay for sickness and invalid benefits? Because those people, it's their own fault to be sick or disabled. And why should I put my energy into supporting people in my family who have a mental illness? They could overcome it if they just had the right attitude. And why should we build public spaces that don't disable people that have flat access? [00:33:00] For example, if we believe that anyone can overcome physical impairments through hard work and willpower, we have been physically no need to think about these things. The other really convenient thing about blaming people for their health problems is that we don't have to feel scared that it could happen to us. You know, I can tell myself that I'm not gonna get sick because I don't eat meat and I exercise. I'm really healthy. Or maybe it's because I have a positive [00:33:30] attitude and they say positive affirmations. Um, I actually once had a woman tell me about how she went to India and everyone else she was with got food poisoning. But she didn't because she said positive affirmations every day. Um, or maybe we believe that we aren't gonna get sick because we're pious and observant in our religion and therefore God's on our side and he will protect us [00:34:00] because the reality is that we have very little control over our health, and that's a really terrifying thought. And life is much easier as we believe that we can protect ourselves from illness or injury. It's kind of ironic that we have this culture where on the one hand, people's health is viewed as an individual responsibility and that other people don't owe you anything. But at the same time, your health and your body is treated as this really public matter that everyone has a right to pass judgement on. [00:34:30] It's like as you said, it's the idea that if your body doesn't fit a really narrow model, that shows that you are lacking in moral virtue. Um, and something else to think about is in a capitalist economy, which kinds of bodies are valued, that bodies that can perform wage work and thus contribute to the economy, and bodies that aren't able to do so are excluded and disabled because they're seen as [00:35:00] unimportant. Um, and I'm gonna go with another example from science fiction, which is in the Hunger Games and the last Hunger Games book. Sorry about spoilers, but you have them if you haven't heard them yet. Um, in the last 100 games, there is a war between the government and rebels, and the government goes and bombs the hospital full of injured rebel soldiers. And the protagonist [00:35:30] can't understand why the regime would do something like that. And her friend explains to her, It's like this. As far as the government is concerned, people are only useful if they can perform the kind of work that the government needs them to do. Energy people are not gonna be good workers, so they're disposable. Um, and I know I've been kind of quite academic and theoretical up till now, but, um, I want to talk a bit about my personal experiences as well. Um, I [00:36:00] have a DH D with an attentiveness, which is one of the the subtypes of a DH D. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 17, and I think this partly has to do with sexism because girls with a DH D are more likely to be inattentive but not hyperactive. So we're not very disruptive in class. They're not really impacting on teachers or parents as much, so they're far less likely to get noticed. It's far less likely to be seen as a problem. I think it also has a bit [00:36:30] to do with racism because I'm an immigrant from a county which is westernised but not exactly Western. So I don't think teachers had very high expectations of me. And if I was kind of quiet in class and didn't participate a lot and maybe had struggle with learning things, they kind of put it down to the fact that I was an immigrant and my English probably wasn't good enough. I probably didn't know what was going on. Maybe I just wasn't very bright, and it was never seen as an issue. [00:37:00] Growing up with undiagnosed a DH D meant that I was constantly being told that I was lazy and unreliable and inconsiderate and stupid and socially inept, and I don't think it's surprising. But I ended up with a whole host of mental illnesses like anxiety disorder and clinical depression, and more than that, like a general tendency not to test my judgement. And that's something that is really dangerous, I think, especially for young women, because it makes you really vulnerable to abuse. [00:37:30] After I was diagnosed, my family's reaction was kind of like you. Now we know what's wrong with you. Now we can fix that, Um, and that goes back to what I said earlier about the idea. But there is only one kind of body and one kind of brain that you intended to have. So they didn't see neurodiversity just as a matter of being different from the norm. It was a problem that needed to be fixed. Um, and around this time I heard that you could manage a DH D through diet, um, specifically [00:38:00] a high protein, low carbohydrate diet. So basically like Atkins for your brain. And I became really, um, obsessive about watching my food intake and making sure that I ate. I eat foods and also things like taking amino acid supplements and, um, flax seed oil and, uh um, all that kind of shit. And I think you don't really need a psychology degree to work out that that had a lot [00:38:30] to do with feeling like I had very little control over my life and my body and my health, and the one thing that I could be controlling about was the food that I ate. Um, and I think that kind of view of neurodiversity is something that you need to fix Does a lot of harm to people because, you know, we accept that people are different in lots of other ways that people have different skills and abilities. I think we can also accept that people's games work in different ways [00:39:00] and some of us are just really care at concentrating and paying attention. Um and, um, as you talked about it before about waves, that she's disabled as someone with impaired mobility. I think for me as someone who has a DH D, the ways that I'm disabled are things like the way that education is available. For example, when I was a university student. Every course of that I did was you went to a lecture [00:39:30] theatre and you sat there for two hours and you talked at you and I cannot learn like that. You know, I half the time, I had no idea what lectures were talking about because I just couldn't concentrate at all. And in activist spaces, it's things like people organising meetings and bars or cafes, or really noisy spaces where I can concentrate on what people are saying because there's too much background noise. So those are the sort of things [00:40:00] that we need to keep in mind if we want to build an inclusive movement where anyone can participate and no one is disabled. Um, I feel like I've been talking for a really long time, so I'm gonna, um, finish off just by pointing out that the capitalist economy requires a particular set of moral values to sustain it. It requires a culture where most people have very little power and autonomy over our lives. But at the same time, we're expected to take full responsibility for ourselves and not blame [00:40:30] anything on the system because that's a cop out and what we need to do is we need to turn that on its head. We need to build a culture of collective responsibility where everyone contributes according to their need, contributes according to their ability and gets according to their needs so that nobody is disabled and that we need to build a culture where people are just to be the experts on their own bodies and the bodily autonomy is respected. And that's about health. It's also about things like reproductive rights. It's also about the right to [00:41:00] work in the sex industry. It's also about trans people being able to transition. Um, that's what we need as a culture that respects community and individual autonomy. And now over to Melbourne. Hello? Is that suitable? Yeah. OK, [00:41:30] good. Um Ok. Hi. Hi. I'm Robin, and I'm really I'm ridiculously, profoundly nervous. And forgive me if I don't make any eye contact with the crowd at all until I warm up. Thank you guys very much. It was awesome. Um, now I was actually weighing up. Um, before I talked, whether I would try to sort of structure something that was, uh, very objective and quite academic, um, to try to avoid talking personally because I'm an Irish Catholic, and we don't talk about our feelings unless we're very drunk. Um, [00:42:00] but given the issues that have been raised so far, particularly the issues of morality and association with food, this issue that Ali has been talking about with the with control and, um, the stuff that, uh, Grace has mentioned with what kinds of, uh, relationships to food are considered, um, healthy and moral, I think. Actually, I'm just gonna have to straight up fears and say that in addition to being a recovering Catholic, I'm also a recovering anorexic. And the relationship that I have personally with food has allowed me [00:42:30] to in later years Think quite a lot about the way that food and morality are very, very deeply related. Um, to sort of give, like, a brief context. I mean, some of you probably know people who have eating disorders or have had them themselves. Um, but what anorexia is particularly is, um, psychologists refer to it as a disease of the super ego, and I think that's about right now we're gonna use a traditional Freudian model of psychology, which of course, is a bit bunk and and very, um, very disproven, but a really good model for personhood [00:43:00] within capitalism. Perversely, um, he talks about desire the, um, the ego, which is the sort of conceptualised self and the super ego, which is, um, one's understanding one's cache of of societal, um, rules. Almost So what an anorexic is doing with their brain is attempting to form a stable self out of the expectations of others, if that makes sense. So what I have, I guess, then, is an extremely personal relationship with the desire to [00:43:30] make myself a good person through not eating any food. And that was that was pretty much literally what a lot of my life was like. And I think another another really, really important part of this is that, um part of it is also about, um, reducing your body in the world. And I don't just mean that, like becoming thinner. I mean, like being absent. Essentially, what you're trying to do is produce a body that isn't really there. It isn't really a body, so it can't be remarked upon. It can't be hailed. Um, particularly, I know. For me, this is really strongly [00:44:00] related to gender. Um and it was also strongly related to I PTSD and the two. The two events are related. Um, that's really common. Um, and it was actually through talking to some of the people who organise this festival who are quite wonderful and can see you and you love you. Um um from what I've heard and I, I did a little reading about it afterwards as well as that, um, incidences of eating disorders and quite often, anorexia are really, really high among the trans community. Um, and this made me think quite a lot about the fact that [00:44:30] people whose bodies are positioned as, um, critique by society at large. Um, this method of, uh, attempting to produce yourself is good through this kind of control is is one of the one of the approaches that people use. Um, but what is so perversely profoundly, horribly ironic about this is that I remember at the point at which, um, you know, I'm obviously looking pretty fly these days, as you see, um, but when I was, um, considerably [00:45:00] sicker and and sick in a way which allowed me to work as a model that that that should tell you something and they also still Photoshopped me. And I think it's probably worth saying Not only did they Photoshop me and make me up for five hours, but I was required to stand like this, you know? So it's a collarbone and and ribs are all out. Um, and I remember during that time people would compliment me profoundly. They would say, Oh, you look so good. How do you stay so thin? And sometimes when I was drunk enough, I would just tell them [00:45:30] that I literally starve myself and then everyone would go very quiet and, you know, diligence and hard work. But it was, of course, diligence and hard work. That's literally what I was doing. Um, but the reason I point this out is because if we've been as we've been talking about, the ways in which people's bodies are maligned is not healthy by reasons of class, by reason of of disability, by reasons of race, what was the situation here is that I was doing the right work to be read as a healthy body when I was profoundly [00:46:00] unhealthy. So instead of a situation where someone you know, a person would look at me not eating at a dinner and think, Gosh, that's terrible that a person isn't eating at a dinner. Instead, it would be a compliment. That would come Well done. How good you are to not eat. And the terrible thing about this, of course, is that that's my rhetoric for it already. I'm already thinking, Gosh, what a good person. I am not eating so good, you know? And then people will tell you that you're good. So I wanna I wanna also sort of refer back to, um, Grace, You pointed this out. The [00:46:30] accelerating war and obesity. And I think I've really, really noticed that myself, because from my particular position and because I've had to think so hard about recovery, which, um, for a long time actually meant that I couldn't hang out with women. Um, I love women. I have many great women friends, and, um, some other relationships with women. Um, but, um, one of the sort of ingrained, um, cultural things that women have, at least are taught television mums. All that sort of stuff is that you are you know, please place [00:47:00] your own body and police each other's bodies. You say Oh, I shouldn't eat. That's a terrible food or so and so is looking so fat or I'm so fat and you're not fat. I'm fat. And they that forever. Um and so I actually I did not see women for ages. I had to not have any women friends until I gradually met radical women. We can hang up. It was good. Um, but from the from this position of having to deal with this recovery, the logic that is used in news reports on, um, you know, the supposed obesity epidemic, Um, on, uh, the [00:47:30] language that's used in advertising for for, uh, products, ostensibly about health is eating disorder logic. I recognise it. I know it intimately. I know exactly what it is doing that every time that that that, uh, discussion, that rhetoric of health comes up, um, it it is it is performing the same kind of regulatory work. I'm just I'm trying to think how to phrase it, but from the murmurs before, I think you guys might already know what I mean. You know, [00:48:00] the medical establishment has only one way of recognising and responding to anorexia, and that is on the basis of body weight. Um, I think, um, you know, it's probably clear to you from the incredibly awkward manner that I'm in, which I'm talking that, um, it's not, you know, the the body weight is really kind of a side effect of the thing that's actually happening. Um, and it's it. It harms a lot of people that it's read that way in the sense that she she's been admitted to hospital [00:48:30] and then when they've managed to bring her weight up to a certain point. Then she's immediately seen on her way right. No treatment for the actual problem. Just just just enough to get her body to a function we where her heart won't stop. And there's There's another side to this as well, in the sense that not only some people get eating disorders. There are plenty of fat people with anorexia. But because the only way the medical establishment has for registering it registering that disease is the size of your body, it means that there are whole Bunches of the population that don't ever receive treatment for it. This isn't even understood as a as an illness, [00:49:00] so I would say, um, I'm personally invested in building a culture where that is not quite the case. I think it's a really important, uh, thing to do, and I also think it is related to capitalism as well. Um, receiving praise for enacting a mental illness is not just about the standards that are put on bodies. It's also about capitalism, in the sense that [00:49:30] there is a certain amount of consumption that's associated with not consumption as well. To how to put this health is an industry. I'm gonna put it that way. It's a really sorry. Oh, sorry, I said, Health industrial complex in this great I already see that health industrial complex. I think it's really profound and what I started to notice as well, particularly about capitalism. When I when I started to get angry, when I started to realise that, you know, this actually was not a great way to live, [00:50:00] I realised that capitalism is a machinery actually has very little interest in whether I'm well or not well or happy or not happy. If I feel bad about myself, then I'm inclined to buy things to make me feel better, and it will profit from me either way, It's not concern. It's a it's an unconscious machine in that in that regard, Um, and there's a a French, uh, a pair of French philosophers who I'm quite fond of, Um, and they talk about capitalism [00:50:30] as a war machine. Um, and what they mean is that it's a It's a repeating piece of algorithmic logic. It's a It's a binary piece of logic that can recognise only things that are useful to it and cleave things that are useful from things that are not. And that's the only judgement it makes. They talk about this in relation to war, pointing out that when people go to war, they're not necessarily going to subjugate people or to kill people. They're going for resources. They're going for workers. Everything else is collateral damage, because the war machine [00:51:00] can only recognise the resources that it wants. Capitalism is the same. What I found uncomfortably profound when I was reading this piece of philosophy is that that's that's what anorexia is as well. It's a war machine. It's building an acre out of an unsustainable bank of information, and it it isn't actually trying to kill you, but it. But it will we have the same problem with capitalism if we we don't, uh, we don't respond to it. It it will [00:51:30] kill us, I think. And on that profoundly depressing bomb. Show it, bro. Love that behind you. Mhm. No, no, that's OK. Um, I'm gonna stand. Is that OK? You can hear me, right? I'm loud. Can we dim a ha? See perfection all around [00:52:00] with the dimming of the light. And I'm, like, super excited to be here today. I'm also really nervous, as Robin is always nervous before I talk in front of a crowd. Um, but I will try to Yeah, OK, um, my name is and I was very excited to get an invitation to come and speak, Um, as part of this amazing event. Thank you so much to the organisers for putting this together. This has just been incredible. I'm especially excited about the gig tonight. I don't know what that means, but I'm super excited. [00:52:30] So, um, I I'm a I'm a transplant. I'm an expat. I'm sure you can hear that in my voice. I'm here from the United States about six years ago. I love New Zealand. Um, I'm on faculty at Massey University in Palmerston North. I love Palmerston North. I love Massey. Um, I'm even willing to forgive Steve Mahay for driving around in that little car. Um, I'm a, uh I could get rid of that little thing in the middle. I'm a fat study scholar, which means that I Oh, Dan, my job. No. [00:53:00] Oops. I don't know you. Oh, no. OK, there we go. Yeah, right. And I'm a fat study scholar. And so most of my research is about kind of looking at issues around fat identity, fat embodiment, kind of critiquing the larger overall narrative, Um, about fatness. Most of my stuff looks at identity, but I am quite interested in health and well-being. And actually, I think the umbrella term that's often used in my work is that I look at the impact of spoiled identities and the [00:53:30] impact that that has on people's health and well being. Last year, I organised a conference that took place here in Wellington and actually several people who were at that conference and presented that conference in this room today and that just makes my heart a little flutter. I'm like, um, just to see people again. It was amazing. Today's, um it got a lot of media attention. And of course, the media attention was not academics. Host fat studies, you know, conference. It was, you know, fat fat pride parade in Wellington, which would have actually been really awesome. [00:54:00] And I totally organise that. It was just very different. And I actually kind of felt bad for the few media personalities who actually came to the conference because I think they thought they were coming to something with, like, five people sitting in a circle, eating donuts and like chanting instead, they got to sit there while academics stood up and read their very scholarly, theoretical, methodological kind of work. So it's probably a bit not what they were expecting. Um, I'm also a fat activist, Um, which I simply [00:54:30] put, I suggest I try to argue the fact that fat people deserve the same rights and dignity as non fat people, which doesn't actually sound crazy to me. And most people are actually willing to go along with that first statement. So you start unpacking what that actually means, and then they're very quick to, you know, kind of back away and hear all sorts of things about, you know, what about the Children? And what about your health and a lot of the things that we've talked about already on this panel in terms of morality and how fatness sex quite nicely with issues of class and race and gender and all of those kinds of things. Um, I'm [00:55:00] a fat activist and a fat scholar, largely in part because I am a fat woman Now, oftentimes, when people hear me call myself fat, they panic. Um, and in fact, I've kind of grown up my entire life with people around me when I say that word No, no, no, you're not. You're not, um, which is ridiculous, because I am, I think, though what they often mean when they say that to me is they're trying to reassure me that I'm not the negative things they associate with that word. And they don't think of me as unattractive or stupid or lazy [00:55:30] or inactive, or you know any of those kinds of things. And that in itself is an interesting way to start talking those assumptions that people have with people in terms of what they mean or you know, when you hear women, and we talked about like fat talk and diet talk. When you hear, especially a woman, say something like, I feel fat today and fat isn't a feeling I would suggest it's not, in fact, an emotional state of being, um, So what exactly does that mean For today, though, Um, I the topic fatness, bodies, food, [00:56:00] all of those kinds of things. And I'm so I'm a fat woman and I'm living in a culture that is all about what I like to call the fat Apocalypse. And we've heard, you know, the obesity epidemic in quotes. We've gotten that quite a few quite a few times already today, and we very much live in that culture. So there's a lot of discourse around the obesity epidemic and how we're getting fatter and how we're all going to die and oh, my God, we think the Children, um, and it's a really interesting kind of culture to live in in the sense that a lot of governments in the Labour government was much worse about this than the national has been. But in my [00:56:30] country where I come from the United States, we have governments that are engaged in programmes of social eugenics. They want to get rid of obesity. They want to get rid of five people. They want to get rid of me. Um, I'm not really OK with my government actively trying to get rid of me. I think I'm kind of awesome. I'd like to stick around, but, you know, that's kind of the world that we live in. And of course, there are so many different reasons that people give for why we're concerned about the upcoming apocalypse. And everything that's on that slide probably won't shock you. The terrorism [00:57:00] one. I haven't seen articles where they link the obesity epidemic to increases in terrorism. Not even kidding. Um, global warming. I don't think I put global warming up there. Um, you know, health care costs in the stock market. And again, who will think of the Children? I mean, poor Children with all the bodies, But for today what? I thought I'd try to focus it on because I appreciate that, you know, 10 minutes is a lot of time. Is the issue of food, right? And specifically, this idea of fat people eating food and I mean I'll be the first one to say, Guys, I can't go a day [00:57:30] without eating food. But, you know, food is food is food. Um, And if you go online and you kind of look at the the rhetoric around fat people and food, you get, like, a lot of the really similar kind of this idea of like, Well, you know, fat people are fat because they eat too much, right? We all know that, right? We know that being fat isn't healthy, and we know they're fat because they eat too much. Even though the science behind those don't actually support those ideas, we have them. And so it's this idea that most people have that fat people are [00:58:00] fat, they eat too much, and then it also starts to become this concern that, like fat people, are going to eat all the food. Um, and like, fat people have no control over themselves, of course at all. And definitely no control over how much they eat or what they eat or where they eat or why they eat. And they're just always eating all the time. And you you start to see this narrative within the obesity epidemic framework that is producing this idea that around food security, right? And about being concerned about, you know, as populations grow and oh, my God, we're getting fatter. There'll be more Fatties, and so they'll eat all [00:58:30] the food. And this was a quote from a professor in London who, um, it's an article that he wrote this great, that awesome by 2050 that people. And I think he actually used the term obese people. And I just can't handle the words. And some people eat enough extra. You just feed 1 billion others. Oh, my God. But I mean, and this is this is his kind of scholarship. Like, this is the work he's currently doing [00:59:00] and extrapolating, you know, these kinds of studies to say, to hype up this concern about, like food insecurity in our in our world and specifically around like fat people and how much food fat people are eating. And so there's a lot of different ways that within the obesity epidemic discourse, people are trying to deal with fat people eating. Um and so this is an example of, actually from the state of Mississippi. So back in my home country, um, a few years to go. Their, um state house representatives actually tried [00:59:30] to make it illegal for fat people to eat out in restaurants because they thought, Oh, you know, this is a way to curb the obesity epidemic and say that fat people can't, like, go out and eat in restaurants. Um, and I think they tried to get fast food in there as well. And this bill didn't pass. Um, as I'm sure most of you were, the food industry lobby is a huge lobby, and they would never actually let anything get through. I'm surprised they let Bloomberg's ban on the drinks get through. But this is one way of dealing with it. And of course, technology gives us all kinds of ways. [01:00:00] So for those of you who aren't familiar with the 80 bite app, um, allow me to horrify you. So this is an app that you can get for your smartphone. And every time you take a bite of food, you check in with this app, and basically this woman developed this app because she believes that 80 bites of food a day is what you should be aiming for. And it's not about the kinds of food that you're eating or whatever when you're eating for her thing, it's right. 80 bites a day is what we should all be aiming for. And so this candy clever app [01:00:30] will help you keep track of your eating. It's like, you know, if you're eating a little bit too much, then you know 80 bites a day, which is just awesome. Um, so this is the so These are the kinds of approaches that we're seeing to dealing with the fat people who need to eat all the food from one kind of angle. I thought I would share with you the opposite angle or another angle, and that would be work being done by fat activists around the world to kind of combat that, [01:01:00] and one of them is through engaging. Of course, a lot of them are through engaging with social media. So the girl who ate everything, um, this is a fat woman who has a blog, and it's entirely dedicated to what she eats. And she talks about. The reason that she started it was because she is a fat person and one of the things that is often denied fat people is not just the ability to eat, but specifically the ability to enjoy what you're eating. Um, the ability to enjoy food to like food. You know, you could say that one aspect of thin privilege is being able to be a foodie, [01:01:30] right? So if thin people are foodies, that's fine. You know, they can talk about food, and that could be their hobby. But it's a fat person. It's like, Well, you know, it's probably not good for you. Um, and of course, another thing that she talks about and my friend Jenny Lee in Australia has talked about this in some of her publications as well is like that. The act of ordering salad as a fat person like means something specific in a cultural meaning. So, you know, if a fat person orders a salad, it's like, Oh, good for you, you know, like, Oh, you know, you must be on a diet or you must be trying to lose weight or good on [01:02:00] you. It's like, you know, sometimes I just feel like a fucking salad. And so, Angie, sorry. OK, um, and and so it's this idea that there's there's so much cultural and symbolic meaning around around that people and and around the eat. And my friend Jen, who's also in the States. She actually is this great tumbler and you can't see the picture very well. But she started a Tumblr called. But what about your health? And she did that because [01:02:30] she's a fat activist and she gets so much pushback from people that you know, no matter what she's saying, whether or not it's that fat people should have the same rights of dignity and, you know, questioning the science around size and health, and you're talking about the kinds of things that the panel has been talking about. She almost always gets at least 10 people that are sending her emails going. But what I what about your health? Are you worried about your health? So she started a tumbler called. But what about your health? And it's only pictures of her eating food, and it's usually or video. It's usually pictures or video [01:03:00] of her eating food like fat. People are definitely not supposed to eat, definitely not supposed to enjoy um, and what she does now because she gets so many people sending her messages anonymously on the tumbler side is, she takes what they said. So this was someone who said, Have you had a stroke yet? And you can't see her very well. But the video underneath that is her eating a McDonald's fried pie. And that's the whole Tumblr is her posting the Hey mail that she gets and her response is her eating a piece of cake or like a pizza on top of the pizza, Or like a [01:03:30] or whatever? Um, and it's it's It's these small kind of acts of resistance of noncompliance. Um, that can really not necessarily change the conversation, but at least participate in that narrative and maybe kind of force it to be something a little different. It could be. It could be argued that a fat person eating is an act of resistance, especially a fat person eating in public, right, a fat person eating unabashedly and unashamedly in public [01:04:00] in the same way as many other kinds of marginalised groups participate in activities that they're not supposed to do or that they're supposed to be ashamed of. Or that should only happen behind closed doors. And so that's what I wanted to share Today was just kind of talk a bit about fat people and food and fat people eating. And one perspective from the obesity epidemic discourse about how we deal with fat people eating and then the ways that a lot of fat people around the world are kind of pushing back and saying, Yeah, I eat, and I'm not ashamed of that. So [01:04:30] thanks. Thank you, everyone. Um, I don't know. Would you like to have a discussion between yourselves? Is there any sort of cross parallels or shall we throw it open to the It's up to you, I think. Open to questions, I think the questions. [01:05:00] Yeah. Thank you so much. And thanks for sharing so much and personal stuff, and it it makes it Really, um so, uh, right as a as a visitor to New Zealand, I'm very new here, and, uh, as a long term ally of fat people and disabled people and in gender issues as well, um, I was wondering if you all had kind of practical [01:05:30] steps. You mentioned the media representations of all the different types of people and how they're negative. And are there practical steps that the Allies can take to be better allies. I I I've got some thoughts, but they're not well. They're sort of taking the question in a different direction. I, I I'm kind of not sure. Well, I have different thoughts about language and different things, but I'm not sure, like the thing about the language of [01:06:00] allies is that I think one of the things is that, you know, everybody in this room is dealing with the fact that society fucking hates your body. You know, like it's not It's, you know, and obviously people experience it in really different ways. But I think that that's something where I'm more interested in building up commonalities than like than the fact that I mean, well, you do you need to express the differences. So I mean, [01:06:30] I So I think there's that. I think there's that. It's important to acknowledge that, um, that it's not a It's not an unusual experience that that the the kind of wave of hatred that people have talked about in different ways today is actually I mean is a function of at least being, um at least being a woman or, um you know, non gender conforming and a lot [01:07:00] of other people you know, or disable a lot of other people as well. Um, and I guess, Yeah. And I guess the other thing, I would just say, which is kind of what Ron was saying before is this idea of policing, and, um, one of the the I had two talks. You see, I gave this talk this week. I said, now I'm gonna randomly assert it to the other talk. Um, we what? What? The other talk was coming about liberation and the idea of fat liberation and that you can't be. [01:07:30] You can't be part of a liberation practise if you're also policing impression and that the the like, The starting point that we all have to have is figuring out how to stop policing each other while at the same time acknowledging that policing is a really common survival strategy of dealing with that you know, of of dealing with that world. I think there's a there's a contradiction difficulty there. But I think that question about how you please people and how [01:08:00] do you say should you eat that? And how do you say, you know, uh, I you know, have you tried this new treatment or whatever. Um, don't Don't try that treatment. Don't try that treatment, because there are really bad side effects to it. And, you know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, but So all those all that kind of policing thing. And I would say that that is figuring out how to, like, kind of stop that policing without while acknowledging that often [01:08:30] that policing does come from a place of real, of the fact that there are a lot of people struggling with those same issues. Um, and I think that that's where the contradiction of attention and the difficulty is, actually, yeah. I mean, that's a It's a compassion and criticality and equal measure sort of thing. Because just as you're saying that, I think one of the biggest things that I've seen a lot more in, um, radical communities is that people police people's internalised self clothing when it comes to bodies. I mean, God bless you. You've managed to survive [01:09:00] this long in this culture without hating yourself. But my head is off to you. But a lot of us, yeah, everyone has this. Everyone has this struggle. And some of us are, you know, have really different relationships to our bodies now than the one we might have come into the world with. But yeah, that I mean, I feel like that's a really important thing for people to do. Is is, um, not as well as not policing people's food choices or activity choices or medication choices. Also not police people's self hatred. It's natural [01:09:30] to struggle in this, I think. Well, I mean, in some ways it's it's kind of the underpants rule. So if it's not your underpants, it's not your business. Um, it's a good rule and try to live by that rule. Um, and I think that I think that kind of quite often it's not just even kind of that that, um, obvious policing, but just kind of your own internal narrative about other people as well. Um, when we talk about like in the fact community, we often talk about issues of like street harassment [01:10:00] and public harassment. And, you know, most people are quite horrified, you know, to hear stories that you know, I'm walking down the street and, you know, people moo at me or, you know, whatever call me names or what not? And they're really quite horrified because they would never in a million years do that. But you know, then I try to talk to them and I say, Well, what about your internal monologue? Like what about what you're not saying? You know, when you see a fat body like, do you think Oh, God, you know, she shouldn't be wearing that or he shouldn't be eating that or, you know, whatever it kind of is. And so, in a lot of ways, not just that external of policing, which of course, absolutely [01:10:30] happens, but trying to be a bit more aware about your own internal kind of monologue that you have about other people's bodies about other people's choices. And when it happens because it happens, try to recognise it and be like, Right, where does that come from? How does that happen? How can I maybe think about this differently? And of course, I always get someone that says, Well, I can't control you know what my instinctual thought is? And I'm like, Well, yeah, you kind of can, because you weren't born hating fat people like you learn that from somewhere, so you know it's about? Yeah, kind of engaging in that kind of self reflection [01:11:00] as well. There's sensible labour that comes with that, too, I think. I mean, you know, it probably won't surprise you to learn that, um, anorexics are pretty shitty about fat people a lot of the time. Um and I remember once I started noticing that I had that narrative and it made sense for me to engage with a lot of fat politics and look at what fat activists were saying about themselves looking, looking at the way that they, um just showing fat fashion and things like that and that. I mean, you know, So there's a There's a sort of a sensible amount of if you do realise [01:11:30] that you have those kind of narratives and you're sort of obligated to not have the right. No. Absolutely. Well, I'm trying to kind of embrace the idea that, you know, then this isn't my own idea, and I can't remember the woman who came up with it, but like there's no one. There's no wrong way to have a body, you know, kind of thing. And you know, if we want that to be true for ourselves, then we should then allow that for everyone else as well. And of course, it's, you know, difficult and tricky and yeah, it is. But yeah, I just The other thing I want to add to [01:12:00] what Rob was saying is I think it's really important. I you know, I think that it's really important to understand that you don't owe anyone else to feel a certain way about your body. You know that, um, that it's actually an impossible task to set people to deal with this way of hatred and feel OK with yourself. That's that's That's ridiculous. You know, that's I mean, you can. There are ways you can feel better about yourself, and those are all really cool and really important and really, you know, really deeply [01:12:30] personal. But it doesn't. It doesn't help set up this other standard about how you feel about yourself when you're dealing with this, this tidal wave of, um of, of, of, of, of hatred and and it does just it it it can just become this other pressure and II. I feel I feel it's really strongly because for lots of reasons, but one was because, like in my kind of mid twenties. I was part of a previous version of this activist scene, and I felt like there was [01:13:00] all the space where it wasn't OK to say that you hate your body. But it was really OK to talk about health, you know, constantly, you know, and so and that that drove everything underground and made it more, made it harder and more pervasive. And so I think it's really important to find people who you can say, You know, actually, I don't feel like OK, you know, actually, it's really shit. Actually, it's really hard, you know, And it is hard. It's not hard because, you know, you haven't done a good job of being a feminist or whatever. It's hard because [01:13:30] it's really hard And, you know, like since again since my early twenties, I've been like, uh um, it doesn't help understanding. Analyse the world doesn't necessarily help you feel better and and and and that's OK, you know, um, I, I I'm just gonna quote because it's a it's a It's an inevitability that if I talk about feminism long enough, I will talk quite a carol has. But there's this, um, one of my favourite pieces of feminist writing is also the most mis misrepresented, which is the phrase [01:14:00] the personal is political, which is widely meant to say that the widely understood now to mean that the way you live your life is political. It's not how it was, um, originally, it was recorded by what we were called Carol in the 1968. Um, and she said, um, that there is no the The point The point she was making is that these groups of women who got together and talked about problems in their personal lives with, you know, they're usually with husbands and not doing the dishes and sexual abuse and all this kind of stuff. And they're like, Oh, these aren't personal problems. [01:14:30] These aren't things that are wrong with us. These are political problems And and then she says, and there are no personal solutions to these political problems that at this time there are no personal solutions to the fact that we hate our bodies. There are just ways through the Maya and that the point, the political point has to be collectively trying to fight for a different world and a different idea of bodies while at the same time honouring that we're gonna have really different ways of dealing with what we have to deal with. Now [01:15:00] I have a question that relates to what you've been saying since having a child. I've noticed it more. Uh, I can go for days when anyone will say to me about her is Oh, she's cute. She's really cute, you know? And they talk about her body a lot. How is she? She's Oh, she's very tall for her age, which isn't a good thing. If you're a girl, um, and I find it really hard dealing with that, and it makes me think about myself as well. So I've heard her pretty much. No one said anything about my [01:15:30] body because I'm just a support person. I don't get cute anymore, which is kind of nice sometimes, um, kind of relating to what you're saying and maybe the underpants issue and stuff. We all know it's really shitty to go up to someone and say You're fat and really ugly, But is it also kind of shitty to go up to someone and say You're really hot, you know, like, do we just not talk about bodies. Is that the answer? Just ignore the fact that that person has a body, because for me, that sounds bad as well. Like, [01:16:00] I want to be recognised that I take up space and that I'm a person. But how do we talk about each other with my close friends? I'll say, Hey, you. You look really beautiful today. But then I feel kind of shitty like, Oh, I made a meeting like yesterday. You don't look really beautiful. And, um, you only look beautiful cos you're bothered to get dressed really nicely. Or like it would be weird if I went to your house and you're just beautiful on yourself and you're wearing pyjamas and actually don't look beautiful, but I still think they're beautiful, you know, like, do we just not talk about bodies [01:16:30] like, what's what? I'm not asking you for the the answer, but what do you What do you reckon like, how do you do? We just pretend that the people we meet don't have bodies, Or I think I think there's I think there's a a space where you're where you can be positive, but without being objectifying. Um, yeah, so I mean and I I do. I think it can be a difficult place to to find. I think that I think that not talking about bodies or, you know, not kind of engaging with people on that kind of level. I mean, first of all, it would be really weird in our current culture, [01:17:00] because we live in a culture where we're always judging and commenting on people's bodies. So it would be quite odd if we didn't kind of engage in that. But I think there's a way to find spaces where it's, you know, positive to provide positive. Um, you know, positive things to say that you want to say because you're like, Oh, I really like your dress today or oh, I really like those shoes or whatever. And so I think that there's spaces to do that without, in a way, being objectifying, which of course is is is problematic or what I would see is problematic [01:17:30] and, you know, and as far as the negative, I mean again, you know, underpants and I think my mom, Irish Catholic as well. And you know, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. You know, I've got that often running through my mind. But it's a good way to make women not express anger. It's pretty much right, actually. I mean, I think this is actually one of the things about this, particularly is that it just is difficult and that the truth, I mean, social justice has a terrible tendency to try and presume [01:18:00] universal rules if we could. Just objectively, we understand the right objective ways to treat each other on various axis of privileged and depression at all time. We wouldn't have any more problems, but but the social part is important as well. So this the fact that it's difficult comes down to the fact that it requires things like taking a level of that person's personality. Um, how you think that they're going to react to a compliment or something like that? You know what the social space is, You know, whether it's a professional space, all that sort of stuff. So I think it's [01:18:30] hard to prescribe roles, but I think you yeah, you're right. It's tricky stuff. It's tricky stuff, and it is that it is tricky stuff and that that's the answer to it. I think it's tricky stuff. Yeah, um, it's not quite a question yet. Um, but I wanted to hear more about your thoughts, and there were I think it came up twice, actually. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, um, it was about health and capitalism. And on one hand, [01:19:00] um, you know, society wants everyone to be perceived as able bodied and healthy so that we can be workers and contribute to the economy and all that kind of stuff. And then, on the other hand, there's a huge amount of profit to be made from people feeling unhappy about themselves. And I was just wondering if you could, um, comment on the relation between those two things because I see them as slightly contradictory. Mhm. What's OK? I'm I'm thinking about this. I'm sorry. I feel like I'm talking a lot. [01:19:30] I feel like the two things are really related, right? Because the the issue I, I think, actually, is that the sort of presentation of happiness and health is one that is presumed upon, um, how to put this almost a sort of really profound binary logic, a human's life, a person's life, you know, you're gonna have sadness and and happiness and moments of joy and moments of anger and all these sorts of things. But the sort of capitalist sale is the idea that there can be one moment. There can be one lifestyle choice that will [01:20:00] solve everything if you understand, so just kind of endlessly, Um, it's kind of endlessly searching for a complete resolution and so on while I I so I I think I see those two things as the same thing. Almost. I I'm not sure I'm making sense. Am I making sense? I'm a little bit. Is it like the abdominal or advert where you you you should have this of somebody who is unfit and has, um, a fatter body and you at the same time, are showing them that [01:20:30] say, Hey, this magical device will instantly transform that body into this muscly rip? Um, you know, So it's like using one to sell the other. And you can't have the the after without before and vice versa. And it's it's a great way of getting money for something that doesn't actually work Well. It's about feeding on people's anxieties in order to sell them things, and you know. The idea is that we have capitalism absolutely relies upon both, you know, kind [01:21:00] of quote unquote able bodied workers. But also, of course, the un wage work, Um, that people, especially women, tend to do in the home for free. Um, but in order to get you to those points, they want to sell you pretty much everything. They can sell you kind of along the way. And the best products are the ones that don't ever actually work, but that the blame falls on the consumers. So I mean, diets are the best example of that. In the sense of the empirical evidence that we have about weight loss is that 95% of people [01:21:30] are unable to maintain what they call meaningful meaning 10 kg or more permanently meaning over five longer than five years. Um, but at any given time, I mean, millions of people are dying. It's a $60 billion year industry in the States alone, which I think is larger than the GDP of New Zealand. Um, but it's the perfect product because it doesn't work. But when it fails, people assume it's them. Well, I didn't do it right or I don't have any willpower or Oh, this next style will work for me. Whereas if [01:22:00] you bought a vacuum and 95% of the vacuums that you bought, like only, you know, if it never works, you wouldn't go. Oh, well, I just don't know how to vacuum. You know, you'd be like, this is a piece of shit product, and you stop buying it. Um, so I mean, capitalism relies on that anxiety that we have, whether it's about our bodies or our ability or our intellect. Or you know, whether or not we've reached, like, the gold standard or the end game for our life in order to continue to sell us crap, including health. Right? So we could talk about when we did it and [01:22:30] actually touched on it a bit. And so did Grace, like, what is health? How does it get defined? Who gets to define it? Who's allowed to have it so both health as a verb, but also as a noun. And that's something that I'm working on with a colleague in Australia is as fat women are we ever allowed to have health, like, regardless of what behaviours, we engage in regardless of what, like medical tests would say simply by having BMIs over a certain thing. Is health something we are ever allowed to have and what does that mean? I think it's also really important to remember that kind of in terms of like, [01:23:00] capitalism's ability to kind of sell us stuff and make us feel bad is that No-one's OK, you know, like nobody's body is OK And even if you, um even if you have somebody who you know, meets all these standards, um, they have to be vigilant because their body is decaying and like if they don't stop putting all this, um, work into their body And if they don't kind of kind of keep ever, you know, ever vigilant and keep trying and keep in control and all that kind of stuff, then [01:23:30] you know, it's not just that their bodies, um, are never go are never gonna be right. But they're gonna keep on getting worse, you know? So I think I think that capitalism is great at both, you know, wanting healthy kind of people to, like function in society but also feel like no tough to eat. You guys not OK? Yeah. So, yeah, um, we're right at time. But I wanted to ask you one more question just to round. Um, I really love the work of Dr Charlotte Cooper. [01:24:00] Um, tracing fat activism through the ages and history. The history of fat activism and trans, um, activism. And also the F more junior and ate about disability and bodies. And, um, who are your heroes? Each of you I'm taking my hairs here is right. Have and, [01:24:30] like, these are the people who keep me saying, Yeah, well, we talking about that today, so yeah, and lots of people have met some today, so that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. I was kind of gonna say something similar, like, um, and Grace for sure. Lucy, um Ruth who? I think she's stepped out. But you'll get to hear her talk next. And also Anna, like, [01:25:00] I don't know. I think with activism. Most of my ideas haven't been from, like reading books or anything like academic or formal. It has been talking with other people with similar experiences or with different experiences, but like being able to connect the dots just like what Grace was saying, Um, you know and feminists in the seventies were doing with consciousness liaising groups. I think you know, you have sat with, like, the people that you know and looking at [01:25:30] your similar experiences. I just wanna also as well as everybody I know, um I want and how much you wanted. I wanna give a shout out to Savannah Doley who made the television series huge, which is really amazing. And if you want some food for so it's well worth watching. And, uh, it's a miracle that it called television. I mean, obsessed with television anyway, so I watch lots of television, but, um, I could produce [01:26:00] parts of it. I think parts of is an example of everything that is fucked up. It has. It has amazing every aspect of the fucked up nature of I could have actually based my title. Stop talking about television. I just want to say like, Yeah, I think that there are people who do amazing things in places that you wouldn't necessarily expect them in. Savannah. Dooley, I. I think you should. I think you should watch you. I think it's amazing. Robin and Kat, do you have any heroes that you want to Add Monica Junior. It's a weird [01:26:30] thing to say, but I mean, it's that, um in terms of that discussion of, um, the need for work on the social part of social justice, I think that it's necessary. Um, or it was for me. I guess when I read his books to, um understand adopting a position that was equal measures, criticality and compassion. So that's so that's not a very good um, yeah. I mean, I think for me, if I had a single two people out, one would be [01:27:00] Samantha Murray, who's a fat study scholar over in Australia. And she's done a lot of really cool stuff. Um, including talking about Grace talked about earlier in terms of her own ambiguity about, you know, being a fat woman who is quite happy with herself some of the time and all the time and the guilt that she feels when she's having like a bad day about her body because she feels like people turn to her as an inspiration. And so is she ever allowed to not be that happy fat person? Um and then, um, someone local em Marie [01:27:30] Chatel, who's at Vic here in Wellington, She does really interesting work around. Kind of conceptualization of health and health and the sociology of diagnosis. And her work just amazes me. Thank you so much, I. I would be.
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