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Hi, everyone. I'm Kate. I work as a community lawyer at Community Law. And I specialise in employment law. Know a little bit about contract law through privacy and human rights. Hey, um, my name is, um I am an independent sex worker here in Wellington. Um, and, um, I also work for a union and do part time activity stuff. Yeah, that's me. Um, [00:00:30] my name is Catherine Healy, and my role is to coordinate the prostitutes collective, which came of age last year, and we turned 25. And also, it's 10 years since we decriminalised sex work. So, um, it's a real honour to be here with you. Thank you. Hi, everybody. Um, [00:01:00] my name is Chanel, and I'm the transgender community liaison for the, uh, for the NC PC. I'm also an out outreach worker and I liaison with the transgender, uh, sex workers that are working in the in the industry, not just on the street, but privately as well. So that, um yeah, and I and I also do a bit of work at NZ. PC and, um, have [00:01:30] worked in the sex industry on for about four years. And so, um, Katherine's gonna tell us a little bit or we're all gonna jump in. And we're gonna talk a bit about the history of sex workers rights in a, um I guess Thank you, Rouge. The history, Um, in part, I have to acknowledge all the people who have lived in the sex industry and, um, going back in time. I was driving to work the other day, and I was listening to [00:02:00] an interview on national radio and there was a discussion about someone called I think Eliza King. I haven't Googled her, but apparently she was around in the 18 sixties in Taranaki, and she went back to the UK and advocated for sex workers in some capacity over there. So I was really interested to hear that. So if anyone, um sitting [00:02:30] there with the iPhone on you could have Google her name, probably. And there might be a bit of information, but going, you know, we know going back in time, that sex work was alive and well in a way before we were sitting in our massage parlour in the 19 eighties and working on the street and came up with the idea to form ourselves into a collective. Um, we came together [00:03:00] in quite interesting times. Really. We had HIV on the horizon and, um, we were quite concerned about the nature of HIV and the perception that the clients would have. And ultimately we we were concerned about the dent it would make in our pockets. So we felt that we had to organise as a kind of means to self, you know, preserve, but also to market who we were and to [00:03:30] try and combat all those negative perceptions that people have. And we were. It's fair enough to say we were bloody fed up because, you know, everyone speaks for sex workers and speaks about them, and everyone has an opinion, and it's quite rare to hear what it was back then from sex workers. In fact, you know, there was a a big feature in the evening post at the time, and it was appalling. It had [00:04:00] a criminologist whom we later bonded with Jan Jordan, um was commentating and the police were commentating and talking about prostitutes there. Some prostitutes that and you know, it was all in the frame of crime. So in the eighties, we had a lot to moan about, um, we had a lot to dream about. And, you know, we really didn't think we'd get anything off the ground. You you would probably relate to that. You know, when you have these ideas [00:04:30] and you're drinking and you're smoking and you're thinking, Oh, yeah, we need to do a union we need to do, um, something, you know, et cetera. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's, um, meet later and so very much. We came out of of a kind of informal way of connecting with each other. I don't remember anyone really taking minutes, actually, Um, and to this day, I don't Have you seen us take minutes? Um, [00:05:00] you know, we we met on the beaches, and we met in the pubs, and we met in people's flats. And we just, you know, did a lot of talking. And, um, we brought our mates on board, you know, like, we were quite isolated in our massage parlours at the time. And for those of you, um, who are far too young to know, massage parlours housed most of the sex workers, and the other part of the sex worker population was working on the street and [00:05:30] if you got a conviction related to prostitution, you were kicked out of your massage parlour and and or, um, if you were working on the street, you could be arrested. And it was quite a common thing. Most of us knew someone who had been arrested and taken to court. I was arrested. Um, do do you remember the bad 2, 200 Children about [00:06:00] when I was a sex worker on the street? We, um they had a lot of undercover operations where they would go out and send undercover policemen out. And, um well, they actually called it a tranny run. That's what they called it. So they would send undercovers out. And it was just a complete waste of time. They pick us up, and they would, um, take us behind a building and put us in a [00:06:30] in a police wagon, take us to the police station, process us and then we'd go to court and get $100 fine. And then we'd be back out on the street again, and, um but we knew that it was that it was risky. It was a It was risk keeping out there, but, um, you know, it was just a way for us, because in those days it was hard for trained skills to find employment, [00:07:00] which is why a lot of them went onto the streets. So, uh, yeah, it's, um, an interest. It was an interesting lifestyle. But, um, yeah, it just with all the with all the with all the the arrests with the police and getting harassed by the police, getting searched, getting your bag search sometimes, depending on what city you were in. If the police [00:07:30] stopped you, they pushed you into a corner and, um, strip you of your clothes. That wasn't the biggest city like Auckland, but Wellington was a little bit better, but yeah, those were those were quite well, not difficult days, but it was a whole a different era back then. So we, um when we came together formally and in an informal way, um, we were clear that we wanted, um, all [00:08:00] people who were sex workers and, uh, some of the groups around the world. Our contemporaries, for instance, had been quite gender focused and just said for women And but in New Zealand and also in Australia, uh, similar groups were coming out at the time and forming. And we said that we were clear, that we wanted men, women, transgender and that we would, um, be together. And that's that's the way we are today. 25 years on. [00:08:30] Um, but I I take my head off too, in terms of history and the new wave of our history. Really? The French in 1975 locked themselves in a church and, uh, to, you know, to protest about the treatment of the police. And then the English locked themselves in a church as well. And, um, Selma James wrote a seminal piece, um, [00:09:00] prostitution in the House of the Lord. If you go Google Selma James, she's very much, uh, still at it. Um, she's now in her eighties, and it was really, really interesting for us because this sounded so exotic and so far off. And we thought, Well, you know, I wonder if we can do this in a little, Um, you know, get our own organisation, our movement going, but, you know, rolling forward a few decades now, these [00:09:30] international organisations look to us for leadership in terms of what we've achieved around the human rights legislation that is in place today for sex workers. Um, 10 years ago, we had laws against practically everything. Um, if you're a sex worker, don't sneeze. Um, because it might be misinterpreted for soliciting. You know, it was like soliciting was a thing of offering yourself for the purposes of prostitution [00:10:00] in a public place. And it was very hard to be a sex worker and and go about your business. Um, for instance, A A room in a massage parlour, um, was considered a public place. So as Chanel described on the street, you know, it certainly into the parlours. You know, the police would come and they'd pretend to be undercover, pretend to be clients and try and go about and trapping us. And, you know, occasionally [00:10:30] they managed to intimidate us as well. And, um, but, you know, it was very difficult. So when the law changed 10 years ago, it did. It allowed us to work in a variety of different ways, which, um, is absolutely amazing for many, many, many sex workers around the world. They cannot believe that we have street based sex work decriminalised in New Zealand. Um, usually, when [00:11:00] laws are put in place. They allow for brothels, legal brothels. And there's usually a very controlled kind of environment where sex workers are managed. Because, really, they're Children, aren't they? And they need management or they're ultimately naughty. And if we let them manage themselves, they'd be out of control. But in New Zealand, we have the, um, private sector, and I think it's it's really brilliant to know that 40% [00:11:30] of sex workers manage their own sex work. And that's a vastly different statistic to what was around in my day. Where probably about, um, I don't know, about 5% were able to manage their own sex work. We're allowed to. And that was the street based sex workers. So should hand over to you. Um, so I have only been a sex worker since prostitution has been decriminalised. [00:12:00] So I can't talk about you know what sex work was like in the past? Um, however, I can talk a little bit about my experiences, um, working both, um, being managed, um, in, uh, in agency and, uh, working for myself. Um, and the, um, you know, the the pros that come from, um it's definitely the most autonomous working [00:12:30] arrangement that I've ever had in terms of work that I've done. I've had the most autonomy over it. Um, yeah. I was wondering what are the kind of main differences? Like what? What are the main differences that you have seen since, like from before prostitution was decriminalised to like, Now that it's not illegal? Well, our our relationship [00:13:00] with the police between sex works and the police has improved a lot. If you're on the street like before, the law changed if you were on the street and a lot of a lot of assaults and things like that went unreported because the police wouldn't listen to us, and we didn't trust them. And, uh and, uh, a few girls, Yeah, um, were assaulted and they couldn't go anywhere. So but now, [00:13:30] but now that the law has changed, that's that's that's that's changed. And, yeah, the police are much better. Much, much the communication between us. We have, uh, um uh, police liaison officers that we deal with at the NC PC? Yeah, and I. I think you can't underestimate the power of that dynamic between sex workers and the police. You know, [00:14:00] I wouldn't say it's all hunky dory. But certainly, you know, to know that your next client isn't going to be an undercover police officer. Um, is a pretty amazing thing. I mean, I'm not sex a sex worker today, but, you know, I, I I'm just often struck by how you know that. That must be to know, You know, that you're not about you, you know, You know, you're not going to be set up and worried and taken to court [00:14:30] and out it and have your name in the newspaper. And, um, salt rubbed into your wound. Taxes demanded, um, and then told that you're still illegal. So, you know, it's a striking difference. Um, of course. You know, we have formal, um things. Um one of the things people are curious about is that relationship with IRD. Um, of course, we always had to pay tax. Even before the law changed, there was an expectation that no matter how you earned your income, you'd [00:15:00] have to pay tax, and the IRD was actually quite proactive and had developed special resources for sex workers and once told me that they were Amoral. Um, so, um, but also, we have relationships with, uh, Well, you know, with all due respect, actually, um, it used to be What is it called now? OK, it's the Department of Labour. [00:15:30] Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. And you know there's there. There is the theory that if you have problems, you can lift up the phone and the government official will come back for you. And that's that's a good thing to know, um, that, you know, there could be someone who would come in and sort you out and sort out the situation that you might find yourself. And And I don't wish to make light of that. Except I know that sometimes [00:16:00] it can be a bit frustrating for people because, you know, they have a problem. And they might be working for an exploitative boss, for instance, and they'll have a cluster of different issues, You know, it might be that a crime has been committed. You know, it might be that the boss is saying turn up to work or I'll find you or bond, you and, um while those practises have, um, and the main died away in certain parts of the sex industry, they are still being used by some [00:16:30] operators. Um, so you know, we have a relationship with Moby, and, you know, if your brothels cold, you can blow the whistle and say that a Department of Labour inspector might appear, Um, or if you're being made to work quite long hours and, um, and that that can happen for people and the independent contracting relationship you might like to chip [00:17:00] in there. So it in terms of picking which ways to enforce your rights and issues. It's always going to be a bit of a difficult way to decide how to go about it, because there are pros and cons, and you might have different rights depending on your situation. So if you're working as a employee, which I understand is most people's contracts, say independent contractor. But whether or not you are is a legal question, [00:17:30] and it's about how you're treated, not what it says on the contract. So it's very important to look at things like who's controlling the hours you're working? Who's paying your tax, Um, whether or not you're allowed to work for other people, Um, whether or not you're allowed to work in your own interest, who's providing equipment These are the sort of questions you're asking to determine whether or not you're an employee or an independent contractor. Now, if you're an employee, then [00:18:00] you can go through the Department of Labour or the employment relations process, which is completely free. It usually starts with, um, mediation. Um, if you're going through that formal process, or you can just talk to Community Law or any other lawyer and they can write you some letters, Um, but then there's mediation, which is free, and the Employment Relations Authority, which is set up so you don't need a lawyer as well. So it's quite a cheap process. Um, And then, on [00:18:30] the other hand, if you're an independent contractor, uh, the options available are generally the disputes tribunal or again, independent negotiation. So if you're going through the disputes tribunal, that's also quite a simple process. But you can only go through it if you got. If you're competing over a disputed amount less than 15,000 or 20,000 with agreement, Um, and that's that costs some money to go to. So if you're [00:19:00] disputing less than 1000 it costs you about 40 bucks, but it goes up to about 100 and 50 if you're going up to that $15,000 mark. And that is a that is a process where lawyers are banned. Um, unless you're actually having a dispute with a lawyer, so I could go, but I couldn't represent someone. And what happens there is it's usually we would be disputing about contracts. So if there's a breach of a contract and you're an independent contract that you're looking at, Hey, you said you would advertise [00:19:30] me. You said you'd book me clients and your receptionist as being a bitch and not doing that. Um, so that's where you go through that sort of dispute and you can get the lost income that you would have made if they filled our side of the contract. Um, yeah. So those are the If you're advocating for yourself If you're talking to a lawyer, those are the avenues of enforcement open to you. There is also things like enforcing health and safety standards. We can get health and safety inspectors and labour inspectors for minimum rights, [00:20:00] Um, which is through the Department of Labour. But I have found in my dealings with them that there's not enough of them, so it can be a bit difficult to get hold of them, I guess. Also, in terms of legalisation decriminalisation, um, it's also just to do with General, I don't know, general societal attitudes that basically sex workers no longer have to take shit from from the police, [00:20:30] uh, from bad clients. Um, And from you know, um, people harassing us in general, Um, because our work is no longer considered a crime. Um, so at a very, you know, kind of general level, um, you know, we can report, um, people who sexually violate us, um, as a crime. Um, we can, uh, report people who harass us on the telephone. Um, yeah, and just just things like that that, you know are really, really [00:21:00] fundamental basic things, um, in order to, you know, just kind of protect. You know, the basic humanity of, um, us, in terms of our working conditions has, I think really changed with the decriminalisation. It's, um, fascinating, because I've dealt with the police now for quite a long time. And, um, there's a whole, um, generation who have come into policing since decriminalisation and their eyes pop [00:21:30] a bit you know, and they get us on a roll to talk about the bad old days, and they in particular want to know which of their superiors posed as undercover clients to come into and trap us. And, um and it's it's it really is a AAA heartfelt difference. You sort of, um, have a sense that there has been a mood swing, but you know, equally, I think around sex worker rights. [00:22:00] Things kind of wax and wane. And we know now, um, right now that we're fighting yet again for the rights of street based sex workers, and I'm not sure if you're aware of this. But New Zealand first are gearing up to ride in with the controversy around sex work on the street. And a Lolo Taylor who's an MP for New Zealand first, is pushing a bill [00:22:30] in the front of the Parliament. Um, it's not in yet. It's not in the ballot box, but she's pushing a bill which will outlaw street based sex work and clients. There is another bill that's right in in the Parliament at the moment that's been discussed, and that's about zoning, sex workers and clients. And it has enormous potential to actually impact on everyone. Really? Who looks like they could be [00:23:00] a sex worker or looks like they could be a client. And it gives the police quite a lot of power. Now the police police, bless them, have written a submission opposing this bill. Um, they're not in favour of it. And zoning is on the surface of things. If you're an inner city resident and someone's, you know, keeping you awake at night, you you could almost hear yourself saying, Oh, for God's sake, can't you [00:23:30] go and work over there and not outside my window? Um, sex work generally isn't noisy. It's generally a very quiet activity. Uh, cars pull up, doors slam, people shout out to each other. Sometimes they shout abuse at street workers who bottles and things like that. Occasionally we have, you know, a a bit of an intersex worker strife happening loud voices, Um, but in the main, it's a pretty quiet [00:24:00] activity. And in the main, most people are quite well behaved. People wanna be kind of discreet, but, you know, it doesn't stop the feed, you know, the feed into the public perception and so that the bill that is proposing zoning has come out of Labour. Um, and the Auckland Council in particular, Monaco City Council. And then it morphed into Auckland Council and was sponsored [00:24:30] initially by Ross Robertson and is now being has been picked up by Sorry, I forget. Actually, I got a blank, Um, but anyway, it's it's chugged its way right through the select committee who have had oral submissions and written submissions. And so we're right in the moment now of having this about to go back to Parliament, and we're really hoping [00:25:00] that the select committee will come out and say, Look, there's no point in changing this legislation. Potentially, the legislation will result in fines of up to $2000 for sex workers and clients if they're found to be working outside of zones. So it'll give councils the power to demarcate zones and say, Look, you know, you can work over there or you can work there. [00:25:30] Now we know with Auckland Council that Lyn Brown has not been friendly towards sex workers, um, and that when he was mayor of man, he didn't allow for sex workers to work from home and and the well he, You know, his council, and he as well voted for a bylaw that said you couldn't work. Um, independently from home, that you had to work, Um, in a zoned area. Um, [00:26:00] that was nonresidential. Isn't that a little bit backwards in terms of the, you know, what are they trying to do? Is that sort of like saying that you you must work in a brothel that's a managed brothel? You can't work for yourself, rouge. That's because sex workers are still perceived as Children. And there's this kind of paternalistic, you know, like if only and the brothel operators spout that nonsense as well. Like, you know, all the girls, you know, they they all need, you know, they all need their nappies changed. [00:26:30] Can I just add a little bit on that? Um, the city bill, which is now the Auckland bill, was introduced as a what is called a local bill, which means that the local council or the like, ask the member of Parliament to put it in because of a group of of shopkeepers. So it's not labour policy. It's not national policy. It's not. It wasn't that a party policy thing. It was a local MP George Hawkins sort of saying, OK, you've come to me with this bill. [00:27:00] I'll put it up and that doesn't commit any MP to actually support it. You ask getting to select committee and within the select committee, there's a lot of opposition to it. Not a lot of the MP S, with their Labour national arrest are actually really embarrassed by it. I just hope it dies. But they're aware that the shopkeepers are really stigmatising sex workers taking a public campaign, doing really nasty telling lies to the media. Basically, um, so that it's It's something that's [00:27:30] there is an ongoing can, um and it's It's now Auckland City because of the Super city taking over what was previously a man, Bill does the MP that's asked to do that? Um, are they? Can they say No. If it's vexatious like if it's you wanting your tax wiped out or something like that, then they can, but in general practise a lot of them don't see that they've got a choice about it. I mean, like, the Green Party might be able to, because but it doesn't [00:28:00] have. It doesn't have elects. You see, that. That's the thing. If you're an electorate MP, then you almost got You have to have a strong legal reason to say no. And I'm not saying that that MP wasn't, um, stupid or whatever, but I'm just saying that it could have been any MP putting it up and still being embarrassed by it. Um, because that's the process, and it's it's very popular with a certain part of the population. Could the MP have declined, though? I mean, you know, could could he not [00:28:30] have? I don't think the rules in that particular area allowed for him to do it because it was a valid legal issue. You know, I just sort of say it. It might have been if it was an NZ first MP Labour National. Um, their rules are such that they have to take account of it Green, I'm pretty sure wouldn't because the rules allow for different processes. But I'm just, you know, So I'm just sort of saying OK, I identify. I'm a member of Labour. I don't like everything about it, but it's not labour policy to do that [00:29:00] the same way I know it's not the policy of some other parties just to balance the books here. It was a labour MP, Um, and Tim Barnett, who worked, uh, and still works, um, is is very keen on supporting sex worker rights. And he sponsored the private members bill through for us, which, um, was supported across different parties, but, um, New Zealand first, who voted against a wholesale and United future? [00:29:30] I think from memory, actually, um, at the time. Although Peter Dunn is against this bill, which, um, was his progressive. Mm. Um, I'd like to ask you one more question, and then maybe we can ask. See if anyone else has any questions. Um, so there is so generally sex workers are not in favour of enforced sexual health checkups. Um, any [00:30:00] ideas about why? Oh, everyone's looking at me. Um well, I can talk about why I personally am against enforced health checkups, Um, for, uh, for sex workers. And, um, the first reason is because most sex workers are the most savvy people about sexual health you'll ever meet. Um, we understand how to correct. By and large, as a demographic, we understand [00:30:30] how to correctly use condoms, which I don't think necessarily. Um applies to everyone. Um, we, um U use dental dams. Um, as a matter of course, in our work generally, Um, yeah. So I think there's the first thing is that sex workers tend to be pretty proactive about their own health anyway, because, um, it's just as unpleasant for a sex worker to have a sexually transmitted infection than it is for a client or anyone else to have a sexually transmitted infection. [00:31:00] Um, and I guess it's just a stigmatisation that sex workers as a demographic are more likely to practise unsafe sex, which isn't true. Um, and the idea that we have no autonomy to choose when we have medical procedures done to us. Um, you know, I personally, um, have sexual health checks every three months. But if there was a reason that, um, I couldn't because, um, for a psychological or mental [00:31:30] health reason or just a time and finance reason, um, I wouldn't want that to stop me from my ability to pay my rent for the next two weeks until I can get that appointment or whatever. And so that's why I think most sex workers are against it. I think, um, part of the difference between legalisation and decriminalisation. These are complicated terms, and they're quite different if you get into the drug debate. [00:32:00] Um, I think they turn around. But decriminalisation in terms of sex work laws indicates that all laws that are out there for anyone in the workforce apply to sex workers. So there are no, you know there's not. A pure decriminalisation means there wouldn't be special law that's applied simply to sex workers. So when we looked at the issue around mandatory testing, of course, like Vita says, [00:32:30] we were absolutely opposed to to that idea under a legalised sex industry. In some places, um Melbourne, for instance, and in Australia is a is a legalised sex industry, which, um, has a fairly tightly controlled regime of mandatory test. So sex workers have to test. I think it's once a month and really, um, outrageous, actually, that this [00:33:00] this kind of notion that let's deliver a clean kind of, um, population of sex workers, whereas the clients, of course, aren't compelled to test. Nor would we want them to be compelled. And, you know, part of the New Zealand rationale around public health is that the only thing that can make a difference is safer sex. And so we've put the emphasis on safer sex practises. Um, [00:33:30] we're not in favour. Actually, there's a little bit in our legislation that talks about sex workers and clients and brothel operators must take all reasonable steps to practise safer sex. There's a penalty attached to that. Now, that's a politician's handy work. Um, we weren't in favour of that at all. And because, you know, like, the idea is if you stop if [00:34:00] you have unprotected sex, um, you you want to be able to say, Hey, look, I did stuff up, you know? You don't want to think Oh my gosh, there's a barrier here. There's a legal barrier I can't, um, disclose in case somebody's, you know, the long arm of the law is going to arrest us, and the phone is like a lot right. It's like 1000 bucks. Um, so, yeah, that's kind of significant. And it it it's But you know, having said that, sex workers do tell [00:34:30] us constantly that they often use that sign, which is, you know, it's a little sign, and it's it's targeting clients. It says Information for clients as a mechanism to remind them that they they shouldn't stuff around with unprotected sex. But as we said, you know, like sex workers are fantastic and negotiating skills. Uh, second to none, really. In terms of getting those condoms and other, um, things going, [00:35:00] Um, So, um, does anyone have any questions? Maybe they could put their hands up if you want to ask something. Sex workers are often assumed to be victims of trafficking, and I know that NZ PC recently published a report on Margaret Sex Workers in New Zealand. Can you tell us a bit about your findings? Sure. And on Monday night, I think, um, Monday or sometime next week there will probably [00:35:30] be something on Campbell Live about the study because TV three is going to interview Winston, who's come out with some quite outrageous things about Asian sex workers. And, um, and they're going to pitch the evidence that's come from the study there as well. Um, we interviewed surveyed 100 and 30 sex workers who were migrant sex workers, and, um, we we were keen to have [00:36:00] a look at the conditions, and you cannot come to this country and be a sex worker, so you can't set it off from any country in the world apart from Australia with the idea that you'll come and work here, be it on holiday or what? Or supplement student earnings or anything, Um, and become a sex worker, which is slightly outrageous. So we, um that's also in the prostitution reform act. Um, but when we when we surveyed the migrant sex workers, [00:36:30] we did find that a number of them were here for different reasons. Some were tourists, um, travelling through, Uh um, some were students, and, um so the situation is somewhat precarious. You know, they they we have a fairly proactive immigration department which is out there looking earnestly for victims of trafficking. And because [00:37:00] the dynamic is that America once a year writes a report, it's the trafficking in persons report, and they write a report and they give every country around the world, I think a AAA mark, and, um, they put you as a tier, whether you're a tier one, tier two or tier three country and write a report card and time and again they do not like, um, you know, they make reference to New Zealand's, um, liberal law. Um, if [00:37:30] you are under the age of 18, the American definition of trafficking is that the society traffics you. So regardless, um, you know of your own autonomy as a 17 year old, for instance, um, the society has trafficked you, So you become a statistic. You become a traffic victim. So they capture the the impressions that NGO S have who are working [00:38:00] with young people under that age in New Zealand. And they do find that there are sex workers who are under the age of 18. And there are sex workers who are under the age of 18, not huge numbers, but significant. You know enough to have men in this trafficking in persons report. So they're considering all sex workers who are under 18 to be trafficked. Yeah, that's the definition. It's not the definition we have in this country. Um, but it is. Certainly there are [00:38:30] people here who would like to change that definition, and but however you know, like there's There are also people who are working on the anti trafficking issue who say that the word trafficking is such a catch all it's such a misnomer. it's not really getting to the issue of exploitation. And I mean, we are very concerned about the situation migrant sex workers find themselves in. And some of the findings Um, yeah, they're vulnerable to exploitation and [00:39:00] so on. But we haven't found evidence of trafficking in that. In that survey, we did find a person who said that they didn't have access to their passport, which would be a really worrying. Um, you know, that's a really worrying indicator of, um, something's not not right, And we have dealt with migrant sex. Workers who have had money withheld who have been really upset have had significant amounts of money withheld. Um, [00:39:30] and they couldn't go to the law about it because it's not legal for them to um, yeah, that's right. I mean, it's it's a It's a bit of a frustration. One of them, uh, one of the people we dealt with, you know, she said, Well, look, you know, I don't I don't mind. I'm leaving anyway, and I don't want to come back, and I'm prepared to speak. So you know, that kind of situation is really, really helpful, and it's quite a I mean, getting money withheld is something that happens to like a lot of managed sex workers. Hey, so if [00:40:00] it wasn't so illegal for them to do their jobs, then it would be a lot easier for them to go to the to get something done about that. Um, so I can't talk specifically about migrant workers in the sex industry, but I can talk more generally about the problem of very narrow visas on enforcing workers' rights. So it's quite a common problem for us, uh, in my experience, for people to be working to slightly breach their conditions and for their employer to hold that over their head and use it to threaten them [00:40:30] into receiving less than minimum wage to working too many hours, not being paid overtime. And I currently have two clients who have been, um, that I'm taking cases for who have been earning less than minimum wage working in kitchens. And the threat is I'll stop supporting your visa. You've worked too many hours on a student visa. If you go to anyone about this, they're not gonna help. They're gonna kick you out of the country. Um, and that is always a risk. Um But there are also [00:41:00] organisations that will help a little bit because employing someone who's not allowed to work in the country or in that particular industry is also an offence under the immigration Act. So there is comeback against that. If you can get someone to stand up and yell it at them, Um but But it's it's It's a big problem in Auckland, not in the sex industry but in the hospitality industry. And there's a number of cases and investigations have gone on, um for and fast food [00:41:30] and sort of ethnic restaurants and the rest where people are working illegally because they come over on student visas or the like, and one of the the the main things is it is immigration policy to send a person working illegally back to their country of origin, even if they also prosecute the employer. And most employees know that, and they don't complain because they know they'll get sent back. But there is also an important thing to note is that the deportation process actually takes a really long [00:42:00] time and there is also a time limit for appeals. So if anyone's worried they're going to be kicked out of the country tomorrow, it's highly unlikely. And if you ever need the support of an immigration lawyer, we have free immigration lawyers. So we had, um, another couple of questions. One more. Yeah. So I was just wondering because I I was 13 when, um, sex work was decriminalised. So I was wondering if you could tell me a bit about the history of how decriminalisation happened. Like what [00:42:30] sort of set that debate off? So we were mad, and we were pissed, fed up, was being arrested, you know, it was our work. It it felt normal to us so that, you know, it was a long winded push for change. And I think we were inspired by homosexual law reform. Well, I know we were, um, in in the mid eighties, and the times were quite rich, you know, like [00:43:00] HIV was around and there was a lot of activism, um, people living with HIV and you know, So there was a big, um, kind of social change that was on on, you know, happening. Um, needle exchanges were were, um, being developed and sponsored by the government. So there was kind of a liberal air and, um, we were inspired by, uh you know, other organisations in Australia. And of course, you know, I mentioned [00:43:30] the English and the French and, um also the Canadian sex workers. Um so you know the language for sex work? Um was just really developing Carol Lee Scarlet Harlot. Some of you may know her, um, in San Francisco, Um coined. She said, Oh, I invented sex work. And of course, we just called ourselves the prostitutes collective because that's what you did. You know, it's what other organisations did. And, um, now, um, [00:44:00] it's kind of funny. I remember being in Kolkata with the Sex Worker Rights organisation there a few years back, and they looked at me like I was the the devil, you know, because I had the word prostitute has got its own stigma now, and the wrong crowd used words like prostitute and prostitution and the right crowd talk about sex work and sex workers. And, um, anyway, um, but, you know, we we stare down stigma, I guess, [00:44:30] with this word, um, prostitute. So I think what kicked it off was concern. You know, we wanted our rights, and it was a slow thing, Really? I mean, it just didn't you know, somebody say will say, What was your strategy? We didn't know how to spell strategy. Sometimes we were so tired. Just, you know, we were just doing what felt obvious. We met. Um, MP S. We, um, were promised [00:45:00] to criminalization by Maurice Williamson, who is still in power. Actually, he was the associate minister of health, Um, and made a spectacular speech around marriage. Equality, um, which took him to, um, fame, international fame. But in our day, he he he said, I always remember him saying, Oh, Catherine, by Christmas, we'll have it decriminalised and he you know, we scripted Morris to say things like, um, it's a law [00:45:30] made by, um, by men for men against women. And so he you know, he would say all these wonderful things. And, um, that was back in the early nineties. Um, so just just, you know, it got serious. We had to wait. You have to wait until we've got political time, you know, the right time sort of thing. And we had a Christian coalition at one point. Graham Lee, [00:46:00] um, sitting in power and holding a balance of power. And we You know, that wasn't the right time to put in a private members bill. The government didn't put in the bill. That was an MP. He put it in. And, um, Tim Barnett and I had met as board members on the AIDS Foundation, and he had a a real empathy for our issue. And we scrapped our way all the way through, um, with Tim about, you know, what would go into the law. And, um, we we built [00:46:30] up a whole sort of coalition of support with women's groups. Um, the YWC a the National Council on Women. Um, Business and Professional Women's Federation. We're the first organisation to stand up, um, and you know, mainstream organisation and say we support a change to the prostitution laws. Um, so, uh, the Maori Women's Welfare League came on board the public health. Uh, groups were there, [00:47:00] um, on the you know, the back back, you know, as as concerned about safer sex and so on. It takes time, you know, and, um, to to to get people on board and keep them on board. But it just seemed to happen. It took about 15 years before we got to that vote in parliament, and we just got through by, um, by one politician actually abstaining, [00:47:30] and and Helen Clark's government, which, um, was fantastic. Another question. OK, uh, my question is about, um, sex workers who are working in managed brothels. Um that are, I suppose, either employees or contractors. And I noticed that what I perceive one of the biggest problems, um, is that when someone is applying [00:48:00] for a job and not necessarily in the sex industry, it's also really similar in the film industry. Um, that when you're a contractor, it's a real take it or leave it situation. You know, um, we we only want you to work for us. If you're going to do X number of hours, you're going to do night shifts. You're gonna, you know, do this. And this is the set pay rate. And it's very difficult to negotiate because there's like, if you don't like these terms, then you know, piss off. Um, so, yeah, film industry and sex industry huge parallels there and [00:48:30] what my question is, and it's, um although it's a contract issue, it's to the whole panel. It's What do you think um, sex workers can do to combat that or what? What has been what has been tried? Um, and I suppose that's, um, New Zealand and, um, overseas. I don't know. Yeah, because I just see that as a huge problem. So what? What you should do? What is happening? I think, um, that, uh, it's part of the wider societal perception, [00:49:00] um, maintained by brothel and agency operators that sex workers, somehow unskilled work. And if you're not prepared to work to these conditions, well, there'll be some other person who will be, Um, But, um, the more that we kind of get together and organise together, we realise that that's not true. Um, And that, uh, yeah, sex workers. Um, skilled work. Um, it's intellectually challenging. Surprisingly, um, it's It can be emotionally difficult. [00:49:30] It can be emotionally rewarding. It can be physically, physically quite strenuous. But, um, it's it's definitely, you know, I've done lots of jobs, skilled and unskilled jobs, whatever that means. And sex work is definitely a skilled job. So the more that sex workers come together and, you know, um, value their profession as a profession. I think we can, you know, negotiate with operators through the change of attitudes. I sometimes, [00:50:00] um, think about that word profession because it's used to demarcate. And I You know, when I meet to people meet people and they say I couldn't do you know, this is when I was a worker. I couldn't do what you do. And I say, yes, you could, because it's almost a nick moment like, Oh, I couldn't do what you do. And I always remind people that of course, they could, um, be a sex worker. But the, um [00:50:30] yeah, the whole issue. I've I've seen some really great sides, and I'm usually sworn to secrecy about them. And, um, I've seen some good things happen where, you know, we've had mediation. Um, we've had victories around sexual harassment. Um, and the idea that a sex worker could take a brothel operator on around sexual harassment. Um, and one, you know that that is just it [00:51:00] makes me think, God, if nothing else works, that's fantastic. And, um, I remember, um, after that particular victory which went through a mediation, um, scenario that I was born to secrecy and I was heading off to something called the Oxford Union debate and I slipped it into the debate. Um, which I keep meaning to put up on YouTube. Um, we have, [00:51:30] you know, relationships with people you know who are operating brothels and that point around negotiation. You know, when you're standing there as a new sex worker and about to start, you know, they're dead keen to hire you. And they can, as you say, put, you know, dump all that stuff on you and you'll do this. You will do that. And we like to talk to new workers before they start and get them to have their lines. Um, you know about Well, I you know, I'm studying, [00:52:00] so I can't work until three. In the morning, but I can work until 11. No, I'm unable to do three shifts because they always dump. You know this on you like if you want to work here, you've got to do three shifts in the same breath. A lot of the operators say things like we can't get enough people to work for us. And so I use that as a moment with them to say, You know, you need to loosen up a bit, but, um, the the disputes too. You know, those penalties that they attach? [00:52:30] I mean, when sex workers bring some of their contracts and and you see these sorts of things attached, they say, don't worry, they're illegal, they're illegal. And you'll win in a dispute hearing you you will win. Um, I can almost confidently say that, um, because we've seen enough of these quite little disputes, you know, go down with, um, people telling the story about how their money has been withheld or whatever. [00:53:00] And sometimes people worry that if they, um that if they come out about their boss withholding money or trying to pressure them into doing something, they don't want to do that, that's gonna go through court, and it's going to be public. But that's not the case, is it? Um, So if you're going through the dispute tribunal, your name is not going to be in any public records. And if you're going through the employment mediation process, your name is also not going to be in any records. They're both completely private, and you can reach confidential settlements in both. [00:53:30] Um, but I think another problem with just contract negotiation is not knowing what terms are normal and what is not normal. And I think it's interesting that you make a comparison with the film industry where they say that the contract is king and it doesn't matter what how you're treated, even if you're treated like an employee. Um, so I've heard that one term that is often put in there is a restraint of trade where [00:54:00] you work for us. Then you can't work for anyone else for like, three months, which is not going to be enforceable. And like it is. The onus is on the people benefiting from that restraint of trade to show it's reasonable and not just about reducing competition in the industry. Um, which is gonna be able to prove that like you have to be a manager to get a three month, um, restraint of trade, like a manager who knows strategy about how you're going to be advertising for the entire three months. [00:54:30] And it's privileged knowledge and no one else knows it. I mean, the standard is high. Um, so we had another question. Um, yeah. At the Women's Studies Association conference earlier this year, there was a presentation on violence against, um, sex workers. And this was done in Christchurch, which found the majority of harassment attacks. And the rest was not from clients, not from police. It was from bystanders and people going past, you know, like groups of [00:55:00] of young men and women in cars, throwing bottles at sex workers and the like. A. Is this a countrywide thing? And B. It seems to be a stigma based sort of thing. And is there anything that can you know happen about it? Well, that kind of thing has always been it's it's part of if if if If you're a street worker, that thing is part of a part of [00:55:30] the street. If you stand out there, people are going to and they do. They throw things, they throw bottles, they throw rotten eggs, they throw everything at. And, um, there's nothing really you can do because, you know, by the time you see a place when they're gone, you know, they just go past and you know, and that's that's probably that's probably the worst thing about working on the street is that kind of [00:56:00] that kind of thing. So working against kind of social stigma is maybe the one of the main kind of Yeah, I. I think it could be. You know, it is a societal thing, and I think, a solution to raise awareness about it. Um, maybe in the hate crime, um, consciousness, you know, like I know. Um um I think it's Liverpool [00:56:30] and the the the police have worked closely with the sex workers and they've developed, you know, they've said OK, if you assault a sex worker, we're going to treat it like a hate crime. And I really think that needs to happen because, you know, just to hear Chanel describe that it's kind of like this is this is what normally happens. And so we have to [00:57:00] work against that. And I think things that people say about sex workers, you know, the, um, statements are really archaic, you know, just horrific kinds of things. I mean, I, I think one of the headlines around the time the law changed was that we were the cancer of society, that that was the headline cancer of society and, um, just just dreadful [00:57:30] kinds of statements that you wouldn't get away with saying about any other group. I wouldn't think I can't think you know, and I do think about these things. So I think until we get something that acknowledges you can't discriminate against sex workers, um, attached somewhere to some legislation, and I think the way to do that would be to put it into occupation. Generic. Um, you know, you cannot [00:58:00] discriminate against the potential flatmate who is a police officer or a tax collector and say, Oh, I don't want to flat with you. I'm a bit dodgy. Um, I think we need that kind of solution. So and people do, um, people do hold those attitudes all the time. I remember about a month after I started working, I was having my first Brazilian wax [00:58:30] ever. Um, because, you know, that's part of, um, a a an acidic standard in the industry. And, as you know, a woman was pouring hot wax on my pubic area. She starts telling me about how her friend F, flattered with a prostitute and how terrible that was and how she didn't want to live with these kind of people. And I was sitting there like, Oh, my God, like I'm having work on myself, um, by this woman. And she kept going on about? She didn't want that kind of behaviour in her home and didn't. I think it was terrible. [00:59:00] And I was like, What do I What do I even say? So those attitudes are, you know, the fact that someone would tell you that while you were in, you know, that kind of vulnerable position goes to show that those attitudes are really widespread really prevalent, really normalised, and that you're just expected to agree with them. Are there any other? Um, uh I think my question is gonna be a two part question. And I'm not gonna be very articulate [00:59:30] because I'm trying to I'm still formulating my head, but I didn't want to miss the opportunity to ask. So it's about race, um, and racial inequalities in sex work. How does that manifest? And how are they addressed collectively within the sex workers? Um, industry, That's the first part. Uh, the second part is racial stereotypes. So, [01:00:00] um, there's a lot of racial stereotypes. Um, and, um, a lot of that has been manifested in the media and all that stuff. And are those stereotypes, um, a form of currency, um, and a form of value that's added into sex work, personalities and profiles. And so how? How how do sex workers, uh, engage in challenging those stereotypes as part of wider efforts in challenging [01:00:30] those stereotypes? Cool. Um, very good questions. I'm just gonna leave them because I'm older and I will. I'll forget your questions, Um, and then I'll defer. But just, um we have a network of sex work projects, which is international. And, um and you know, one of the fantastic things has been that sex workers are all brought together and rub up against each other and so on, and [01:01:00] because there is always a tendency to speak for the other and, um, in particular, you know, like you, you hear people say, Oh, yes, it's OK for you because you're ABC. But what about them lot over there? And you know, typically it's Southeast Asia or somewhere. Um, you know, it's sex work for them. It can never be a choice. And it's a bit hard when you're confronted with power from Thailand or the so Um [01:01:30] organisation from Kolkata or from South um southern India, who are saying sex worker rights are human rights and, um, and and and Thailand. You know, the sex worker organisation, Uh, talks about talk to us about worker rights. Don't talk to us about sewing machines. Um, at NZ PC on Wall Street, we get people who come in and [01:02:00] they'll tell us these nauseating stories about wanting to go to help prostitutes in Cambodia. And could we help them, Um, put them in touch with some and, um oh, my, my, my answer. Um oh, God. I. I just nearly lose it, you know? And we have a collection of t-shirts, um, that we have on our, um we have this frame at we've [01:02:30] got international t-shirts from all around the world and six work organisations And, you know, the the, um, sex workers from the Asian Pacific Network of six week projects, Um, which is out of Thailand and we belong to that network, you know, has, um, the one that looks like McDonald's stars. And it's done right across the golden arches, And I say, Well, this is made by the sex workers in Thailand. [01:03:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, it's that it It's not to to say that there isn't a heck of an imbalance, you know, in terms of economies and in terms of how people arrive in sex work, um, you know, et cetera and context of choice and so on. But all of that. Yeah. How do we combat racism? Um, it's, you know, like, and we [01:03:30] say, Look, don't speak about sex workers in other countries. Unless you you know, you know what you're on about. Um, let them speak for themselves, you know, as they can. Um, but the you might vote, I think. Also, um, you really hit the nail on the head when you were talking about kind of, um, races, cultural currency, that when you are in a sex work transaction, you are It's not like a normal sex [01:04:00] transaction, right? You were already, um, fulfilling a sort of a performative role in terms of your gender identity or your gender. And so I think race comes into that and that, you know, all most of the sex workers of colour who I've met, Um, and obviously, I'm not one, but, um, they play on, you know, they perform, you know, often quite ugly racial stereotypes. Um, but, you know, if they can use that to get money, um, to make money. It's [01:04:30] not really any different from, you know, using your race as cultural currency and any other kind of job where you're, um, looks or you you You look a certain way you're performing a certain way, and I'm sure it's very problematic for a lot of those people. But, um, I think that they tend to just kind of have a sense of humour about it, and, you know, um, see it as another performative aspect of their job. In a lot of cases, I've definitely [01:05:00] been a dusky made. That was lulls. Um, so there was another Christian? Yes. Um, um, it was really like to hear all your stories that I've never had the opportunity to, um, learn about sex work. And, um well, my question is that, like, um, I work in the organisation, and, um, it's [01:05:30] I have a lot of respect for marriage and things like that. Like if anyone wishes to be married, Um, that's fine. You know, um, I believe that you married before love, blah, blah, blah. But, um, what I think in many cultures many, um, different cultures. It's used as a, um, way to as an excuse to exploit women. So, um, a lot of a lot of people have told me that marriage is a legalised form of prostitution Where, um, you know, like we have some [01:06:00] cultural stuff about marriage, like diary. Like buying a woman or the woman has to pay the, um in laws money. Um, because she's such a burden because of agenda, like it's just a form of transaction. And, um, men using women for getting citizenship. Um, um, this is not marriage. It's It's a you know, it's like a transaction. It's a business transaction, and it's been going on for centuries. And, um, sex [01:06:30] work. I mean, I think, um, there there's, um, in my and stuff like, you know, like there's they were regarded as artists and, you know, they they they know how the art of art of seduction. And, um, you know, it's a It's a profession, I believe, because it's it's a lot, a lot of work and the people who go to sex workers. There's a lot of things only professionals can do, like the desire can be met because the sex worker professionally knows what how to satisfy [01:07:00] the needs of the customers um, so I understand that bit, but what do you think about marriage as a form of legalised prostitution? Um, could I just quickly say, Look, you know, when I talk to new sex workers, I say Now, I don't undermine the state of the nation here, Um, Lisa's best and the idea that sex workers can do all these wonderful headstands bollocks, sex workers, [01:07:30] you know, they do not want to be working too hard. And I believe probably in the marital bed, that sex is far more proactively, you know, inventive, inventive or whatever, but, um, no, Um, and I think that's an important discussion because, I mean, sometimes you do hear it said in sex work discussions, you know, like, oh, we do what the wives don't do. And I I think that's a load of bollocks. [01:08:00] Um, too, You know, you you do as little as you can get away with, generally just and the quickest amount of time. I mean, um, but marriage and and sex work, it's it's a difficult one. And of course, people forget, too, that sex workers are often married and have, you know, multi tiered relationships to, um, manage. [01:08:30] Um but we did have a t-shirt. I think it must have been Mark, was it who said or somebody, Um, prostitution as a rental of the body and marriage is a sale. Somebody said it wasn't original, but we had it hanging in our community base for ages. But in saying that when the client pays you, they're not they're not paying you for general use of your body specific things that you negotiate of what you want to provide, and you don't do anything you don't [01:09:00] want to do. And, um, and the law totally backs you on. Yeah, if you want to say if I do this for this amount of money and I do not do this under any circumstances, you can say that. And, yeah, some other great said, um, if every woman charged every man and I'm sorry, it's it's a little bit heteros. If every woman charged every man the balance of power would shift overnight. That came out of a Canadian rights sex worker activist. [01:09:30] And so we had a couple more questions. Questions might turn out to be two fold, see where it goes. But the popularisation of the Internet and, uh, especially in the UK. There have been quite a lot of websites coming out with things which are essential to review where punters, you know, put up, um, you know, the the price they paid and what they thought the experience was like and everything. Um, there have been quite a number [01:10:00] of projects which have come out of that, and they served to really highlight some more very degrading, terrifying and downright dehumanising clients like punters, what they called plants that come along and, you know, pay for these services and then write these horrific reviews about these poor people. Um and I. I feel that that's really ingrained in the kind of notion that they're paying for the person [01:10:30] and not the act itself. And perhaps there's a bit aeroplane, you know, male privilege thrown in there a little bit. And so I. I suppose what I'm trying to get out here is how do you all think that we should go about perhaps changing people's opinions about how to consume sex in a business setting, like whether it be through legislation or education that can I just quickly it sounds, you know, [01:11:00] like the client thing. I I often wonder about that if it's kind of an internalised sort of homophobia kind of thing, you know, like misogyny unleashed and some of those dreadful forum for, uh, you know, and I can't. Can't, um I don't know what happens. I know. No, I can't bear those forum forum. Can I talk to someone who participates? Um, I use, um uh, New Zealand [01:11:30] Punters forum. Um, for advertising. My brand. Um, and by and large, in New Zealand, the way that sex workers are discussed is real within the realms of what is, um, a commercial? Um, sex transaction is relatively respectful. I mean, obviously, there will be comments about a sex worker's body. Um, and, uh, certain acts that a sex worker engaged in, um, but they generally tend to in New Zealand. Tend to be [01:12:00] the tone is you know, um no, Certainly no more degrading than what you'd find on your average dine out dot co dot NZ review. Um and, you know, I think that, um, the community is quite self policing in terms of maintaining, like a fairly, um, a fairly grown up tone. Um, I think that, um, like Catherine said, um a lot of men who, in my experience, a lot of men who see sex workers resent the fact [01:12:30] that they paid for it. And they have, like, you know, a kind of a weird psychological thing about they do it. But they don't like the fact that they do it. And they often plays out and, you know, physical violence against sex workers and also and disgusting things that they write about us on the Internet. Um, in terms of what you can do about that, um, the answer is probably very little, Um because really, as a sex worker, you have to acknowledge that you are playing into you. You are performing quite a bit of [01:13:00] role. Um, you know, I certainly don't talk to my clients about my politics or, you know, um, my real job or my boyfriend or any other aspects of my real life. Um, you know, my sex with persona is, you know, an aspect of me, but is not me. Um, you know, and you're not having sex with vita. You're having sex with my hooker persona. Um, yeah, And what a nightmare it is when they try and talk politics with you. Oh, [01:13:30] just come out. What are you saying? It's great, co. It doesn't let bad luck here. Uh, so, uh, my, um I just had a question about, um the the current potential law change, And I was wondering what, uh how can people get involved? Um, what plans are there to to fight those laws? [01:14:00] We had a, um, select committee meeting on Thursday, and I can talk about, um you know that I can't talk. Actually, I, um But I can say that there is a, you know, a plan unfolding at this point, and hopefully that will come to light. But, um, all of those the the people invited to [01:14:30] the select committee, um, were from all you know, the police, us and the community boards, um, from the council. And of course, you know, you had the the politicians. So, um, we have some homework to do, and we're doing it, and we hope that, you know, ultimately the legislation won't go back to the house. Um, but what could you do in the meantime, I guess I mean, it's it's a difficult call, because I, I think that [01:15:00] you know, if we whip it up with the MP S or if we, you know, lobby. And I think we're probably in a a point at the moment where we're just in a holding position. But if it does go back to the House, then it would be a case to start writing to MP S any MP S Um [01:15:30] um, so can you call on as well, just so she doesn't get, um, I just wanted to talk about the use of what clients say about sex workers, because I think it's been something that's getting a lot of attention recently because it's been a legal court, Um, promote the model, the idea that we should criminalise clients as opposed to sex workers, and I was hoping at the minute that you're about to talk about that, that's a terrible idea. But, um, I think [01:16:00] the thing with sites like Punch and other sites like that is also that they not need for workers to read. They mean showing off to each other about what they think they can get away with with sex workers and stuff. And a lot of it is actually completely not true. As someone who has interacted with clients and it's written about me. It's very frequently, absolutely in a relationship with what actually happened is trying to portray themselves as successful men and desirable men. You know, they talk [01:16:30] about how they've given you 15 orgasms and a half hours. I like my It's not true. It's about showing up. And I think it's more of the way that men sorry, it is a bit of a generalisation. But the way that men act on the Internet than it is about specifically yeah, yeah, exactly, and showing up to the other men and talking to about what the great men they are. And [01:17:00] you know, because people have this fantasy of being able to be the man who gives the look of the orgasm because, obviously, um, because it's work we're not actually enjoying sex most of the time is the perception. And so people are want to believe that they're the one who can break through that barrier and experience the review. But, um, like I said, there's been a lot of attention on the subject recently, and I think it's because there's been pushes in Scotland in particular at the moment, to criminalise [01:17:30] clients and adopt the Swedish model. And, yeah, it's spreading like a disease in the Swedish disease. We call it, and it's, um it's really funny, because Sweden, you know, you'd think of Sweden as being a liberal liberal country. Well, in respect to sex workers, it's, um, got this parallel kind of criminalization thing going on. So while sex workers can't be prosecuted, their clients can. And it it's just the, um it's called [01:18:00] the sex purchase. Um, anyway, in Sweden, in Sweden, if you're a client, um, you cannot pay for sex. Of course you can. Sex clients continue to do so, but they can be arrested. And that makes sex workers lives very difficult. And other countries have picked this legislation up, and worryingly, it's being pushed in the UK. Now, um, it's been pushed in Ireland specifically, um, [01:18:30] at the moment, too. In Scotland, which has always been very had a very strong sex worker rights movement. So that's really, really scary. And, um, the I was talking to the English collective the other night and, you know, they they're always having to fight off these madcap ideas over there. And so we're really worried that if it goes through in Scotland. It will be seen as a kind of Western norm. You know, Sweden is very exotic, but it's northern Europe [01:19:00] and, um, countries that have a cultural kind of relationship to New Zealand, etcetera. So, yeah, it's one to be watched. Um, it never flew here. So we're slightly relieved by the fact that if you pay a sex worker under the age of 18 in this country, you can be prosecuted. Um, I always remember the discussions we had with the women's organisations [01:19:30] about sex work. Um, and what to do about the clients situation and sex workers who are under the age of 18. And I think the woman from the Business and Professional Women's Federation argued with the woman from the YWC a and said, Oh, great. So 16 year olds are allowed to practise, but they can't get paid for it until they're 18. But, um, seriously, I think the, um the whole sort of, you know, the the pendulum [01:20:00] is swinging, um, back against sex worker rights. You know, we felt we'd made huge gains, and now it seems to be swinging back. Hi. Um, I just have a sort of whimsical speculative question about, um, utopian sex work, I guess. Like after whatever revolution that might happen. Or like after we abolish capitalism or after, [01:20:30] You know, like, I think that in a lot of people's utopian visions, like we haven't really worked out sex would be transacted, you know? Or whether whether whether it would all just be like communes and happiness and friends or whether there would be I don't know. Do you have any thoughts about that? Um, after the revolution, I'm gonna be living in a polyamorous commune and I'll be too busy fucking all my lovers. Time to work. Um, so that's that's [01:21:00] my perspective. In an ideal world, maybe there will be no more. Maybe there'll be no more, Um, work. Yeah, but interestingly, you didn't mention the word choice, which I hate. Which I thank you for, because often that word choice is used a lot in the context of sex. We Oh, yes, but, you know, choosing this profession. Um, and you hear it. So [01:21:30] So. But, uh, thank you for not using the word choice. No, I think I mean, I think that's the thing Is that you know, all work is um is coerced to some extent. Um, you know, like, I would really like to just get stoned with my cat and watch videos all day. But, you know, we've got to pay rent and stuff. Um, unfortunately, um, and so, Yeah, um, the choices. I mean, there's different levels of choice and collusion, [01:22:00] but it's all it's all a continuum. So thinking about sex work as profession, and I was kind of wondering what the relative advantages and disadvantages would be of having like a formalised training system like you get a diploma in sex work or something. It pretty much happens in agencies. [01:22:30] Um, that, you know, um, you would think again that it's instinctive. Um, that actually, going into my first job, I had no idea what I was doing. Um, and sex, you know, sex workers tend to learn from other sex workers to have you actually run a job. Um, because no one else really explains it to you, Catherine. And she might be able to. The clients are well trained and, you know, like, if [01:23:00] sex, you know, sex workers are a body of, you know, the huge numbers out there, and they're training the clients, and so you can sort of pick up in interesting things from clients how it's how our session is meant to go. And so it's kind of a mirror image of what sex workers would normally do, comes back. So the whole sort of induction into sex work I am opposed to the professionalisation and the idea of certification. I guess [01:23:30] I find it snobby and elitist. And, um, I'm a deconstructionist by nature, I think. And I, I would like to think all of you go out of here right now and solicit the car yard across the road and you all make a buck and you can do that with minimal skills. But I also hear what Peter says says that there is a lot of skill that comes along as you go along. Um, in the course of sex work that you attach, you know to yourself. And it [01:24:00] isn't, um, without skills and, you know, and you apply it to other aspects of your life. Yeah, they they're quite general skills, like I can't like, put a condom on with one finger while you know, doing something else. General skills like it teaches you to be very good at, like, negotiating, negotiating tricky situations. I like being able to say no in ways that aren't like fuck off. Like you have to be able to say, I don't know if we know each other well enough for that. You know, [01:24:30] it teaches you to be able to say no in a whole variety of different ways. And, um and kind of also kind of teaches. You could, um, transactional, you know, like sometimes I think, um, so you're in a sexy situation. The client wants to believe that they are there, that you're there because you've got all the money in the world and you just don't get enough sex, and, um and so they want to think they they want to forget that they're paying. So, [01:25:00] you know, you learn to do all that quote, um, skillfully or something has to be like, Well, when you're working, you have to be a bit of an actress as well, you know, because with clients, it's a lot about it's about fantasy. But, um, when you're like, if you're in the street, you learn from other girls. When it comes to clients, every client wants something different, and it may not be something that you want to do. [01:25:30] Ah, but that's when I would say do to the clients. Don't let them do to you. You know, this isn't about me. This is about you, you know, like all of the ways that you can get of hell. No, This is this is about me touching you. That's it. With this sort of current, I guess. Yeah, like pendulum shift against, um, sex worker rights, particularly with the, um, submissions that are coming [01:26:00] through. How is it that people can become allies in support of sex workers? Like, what would be the best way to go about that? Would it be engaging in the dialogue through social media and expelling this when we see it a challenging thing? Is it writing submissions? Is it punching me brown in the face? I would love to. We desperately need Auckland to get on social medias and flog it. Actually, [01:26:30] that would be really, really helpful with social media, Um, et cetera, et cetera. Um, that this is really unacceptable. Um, you know, the pending legislation. Um, that would be very helpful. Yeah, um so my question I guess sort of comes back to, um, the Swedish model and personalization of the clients. Um, do you think that that in part stems from, I guess, a societal misunderstanding of some of the reasons [01:27:00] that clients might go into a sex worker in the first place. Um, some sex workers that I've talked to in the past have talked about how they have some clients who come to them for therapeutic reasons. Like learning how to have sex again after an injury, or, you know, a whole range of things like that. Um, but I don't think we really talk about that very much or very widely. And I just wanted your opinion on that idea. Definitely. Um, I think it stems from the idea that prostitutes are are are victims. Um, and we don't need to [01:27:30] be criminalised either, because we've had all these terrible, terrible things happen to us. Um, but, you know, obviously anyone who wants to purchase sex is a bad person. Um, which we all know that you know, um, clients come in as many different shades of sex work because they're all different kinds of people. So I mean, there there are terrible clients. Um, and they are lovely clients, just like in any other industry. Yeah. So the only thing that all the all their clients to have in common [01:28:00] is they've got money, They've got enough money. And it's not even that they've got lots of money. They somehow find it. So we have a wrap up. Is there any particular things that anyone wants to thank you all for such respectful questions? Um, I was expecting to have to go. Don't shut. You've all been great. Thank you so much. It's been a real privilege talking to everyone. I'm always curious, too. If attitudes [01:28:30] were at one place and shifted either, um, throughout the discussion. So is there a show of hands if your attitude shifted or a shake of your foot or something? Or do people feel like they've kind of had some good insights or something like that? I like they close your eyes and you can see [01:29:00] also thank you to rouge. Thank you.
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