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Uh, my background is that I'm an American who immigrated here in 2005, determined to go somewhere else after George Bush got reelected. Um, and I was at a point in my life where I could do that. My kids were established. My parents had were deceased, so I could have one more great adventure. And part of what drew me to New Zealand as opposed to other locations, was its record in human rights [00:00:30] in particular. Um, that was one of the things troubling me in the US was, uh, at least under republicans. Uh, equality issues were a problem. Um, there were many other issues, but that was a big one. I have worked in higher education as my first career. And then when I was about 20 seven, I went to seminary or I started thinking about going to seminary. Went to [00:01:00] seminary in when I was 30 I've been a priest for 30 years. Um, I have always worked in from a progressive angle in the church. Uh, my one of my formative bishops was Bishop John, um, when I was a young priest, he was my bishop. Uh, so these [00:01:30] issues have always been important to me. When I came to New Zealand, I had not been working as a actively as a priest. Uh, for about six years, I'd worked with, uh, another faith group, Unitarians, as an administrator. Uh, because I was frustrated in part, I would had been in a position of high rank and, uh, an American diocese, and I got it was a fairly [00:02:00] conservative diocese, and I got very tired of the sex wars. Um, because there was still a lot of resistance to equality, Um, and wasn't the only reason, But it was a big one. And so I went off with free thinking Unitarians. For a while. When I came here, I did not expect to work for the church. Uh, I thought I might have to drive [00:02:30] a taxi. I just hope I could stay and the, uh uh, of staying in temporary housing over on Queen Street. And during my first week, I happened to walk by Christ, uh, Saint Matthews and they had a big banner on their bell tower that said, Make poverty history. I thought, Well, they might be my kind of place. So I came the next Sunday and, uh, heard a fairly progressive sermon tolerable liturgy. And I thought, [00:03:00] Well, maybe this will be a place I can come worship. But then I noticed they had a, um a notice sheet of activities and they at the bottom. There was an ad for they were looking for someone to do communications and marketing and gave a URL for looking up the position description and went back to my hotel. Looked at it. It was like I had written it for myself, so they weren't looking for a priest, but I But I had experience with Web development and communications and, uh, qualifications [00:03:30] there. So I applied. And two weeks later, I had a job and, uh, with the vision of creating a virtual progressive church online, and, uh then they cottoned on to the fact that I was a priest, and eight years later, I'm still here and at the moment, priest in charge. So it's It was one of those grace filled moments, [00:04:00] so that's how I came to be here. Saint Matthew is is known around New Zealand for it's very, uh, progressive but proactive approach to, um promoting the values that you hold Can you talk to me a wee bit about that? How did that all come into being? I'm thinking of things like, um, the billboard outside the church is always coming up with interesting ways to kind of push the the but the buttons. [00:04:30] Yeah, well, that that's part of my brief here. And, uh, let's see, Saint Matthews has always been a place that was concerned about social justice, not just for the gay and lesbian community, but, um, much broader. I mean, they helped found the seafarers, uh, and and they [00:05:00] or at least they were involved with it. Um, And they started a medical clinic which later, I think, evolved into the Auckland City mission. And the first Miss City missioner was somebody in my position who went to do that work and establish the mission. Uh, it was in involved involved with, uh, the for, uh, Maori land rights. And it, uh, in my office is where, uh, [00:05:30] the demonstrations for the Springbok tour, uh, were planned. Um, when Nelson Mandela came to New Zealand to thank Kiwis for their support, he did it from Saint Matthew's pulpit. We were involved in anti war Pete Seeger, sang from our in our pulpit. Uh, so there's been this long history, And then 30 plus years ago, when it was still, [00:06:00] uh, against the law to be gay, uh, Saint Matthew's helped found, uh, the Auckland Community Church, Um, or at least offered a safe place for them to meet and with many of its members, our members who were involved in supporting it. Our clergy have preached there regularly over the years, and, um, and it slowly became more and more seen as a major component of who we were was to support [00:06:30] that community. Uh, no. I mean I. I think it's important that, um, the heterosexual community is not just tolerating the gay and lesbian community, but respecting, honouring, appreciating that community. And Saint Matthews has a long history of doing that. So we've been involved with, you know, the AIDS quill and the AIDS Foundation. They regularly have their, uh, some of [00:07:00] their services here. The transgender community. It has memorial services here. Uh, many, many funerals of of prominent gay and lesbian people have had their farewell here. Um, we've had some, um, great funerals with, uh, some of the entertainers in the gay community. Uh, I mean, it's so [00:07:30] we've been been there, and whether we directly were involved in doing it, we at the very least provided them space for it. Uh, we have spoken actively in the pulpit about the issue. We've confronted our own Anglican church about their policies, and a few years back, um, I decided that we had requests [00:08:00] for people to do civil unions here, and the the Dyson policy was not supportive of that. Um, it was OK to do blessings. I got myself licenced to be a civil union celebrate so that I could actually hold the whole service here in the church. Well, the diocese doesn't fully approve of that. We don't hide it, and they've chosen not to make it an issue. I don't do a lot of them. [00:08:30] Um, the gay and lesbian community, for understandable reasons, isn't necessarily, um, trusting of the church to have their services. I think is a big part of it. Um and I certainly understand that, but for those who wish it, I'm available to them if they want to have a religious ceremony. I. I only do gay and lesbian civil unions. [00:09:00] I don't do civil unions for other people. For the heterosexual community, there are plenty of civil union celebrates for that. So, um and we're we're working out in our minds how we're going to handle the issue if with fingers crossed that the Marriage Equality Act passes how we handle that because the church will be behind the curve on that in terms of approving our ability to do that, I think they will eventually. [00:09:30] But in the meantime, what do we do? So we've we've kind of worked out a strategy on that, Um, we're going to couples who want to have a marriage here are gonna need to go to Internal Affairs, have a kind of a JP wedding, so they're signed off on it, But then they'll come here and we'll do the full thing as a renewal of ours at the at the very least and and provide [00:10:00] the blessing. So, um, we're we're planning ahead. Having all these things go on in the church is one thing, but actually, things like your billboards and being quite outspoken publicly about your progressive attitudes is is another. How did that idea of really pushing the message out into the community come about? Well, it tied into this world we now live [00:10:30] in with the Internet and social media and all of that. I've been doing billboards for a while. Hardly ever. Did they get picked up in the media? They were often clever. They provided a smile, but they didn't push any envelopes. Uh, it was our first. The first billboard that pushed the envelope didn't have anything to do with the gay and lesbian community. It had to do with, uh, the doctrine [00:11:00] of the virgin birth. And, uh, it was a billboard showing Joseph and Mary in bed. Uh, Mary looking was sadly to heaven and Joseph looking rather dejected. And it just simply said, poor Joseph God is a hard act to follow. Well, that was quite an experience, because it went. I watched it go viral on Google. And then it was in all the newspapers around the world, [00:11:30] and there was we were getting interviews and television and radio from around the world, and, uh, and people found us. And and they found our websites that we didn't have a big Facebook page at that point. Um, we were just getting into that but just, uh, incredible numbers. Thousands and thousands of people came to the website, and, uh, people [00:12:00] you know were either very supportive or, um, extremely angry about it all. You know, we've got lots of hate mail, lots of hate email. Um, we mixed in with lots of positive ones as well. That's when we really discovered the power of the billboard. And, uh so we we work hard now to find a way to push the [00:12:30] edge. Um, it's not for our notoriety. It's in order to engage the world and to talk about, uh, issues of spirituality and social justice. And we have lots of evidence that that happens. Uh, for instance, our Christmas billboard was part of a major blog in Russia where it just had tonnes of comments. I have no idea what they thought, [00:13:00] uh, but it But it's now because of that first billboard, whenever we put up a billboard, the media is interested, and so we're we're almost guaranteed that what we put up is gonna get some attention. Um, we got up with the We've had 34 billboards that have had it directly to do with gay and lesbian and [00:13:30] one was showed Noah's Ark, and it said, We welcome two of every kind. It was a beautiful illustration, and we use it a lot. Um, and the next one had to do with confronting church policy. We have a member of the staff who is a theology bachelor's of theology. Um is incredibly gifted. Every inch of him is a priest, but he's also gay and in a committed relationship. And the and the bishops have chosen [00:14:00] to have a moratorium on allowing someone like him to go through discernment for ordination. And after two bishops are making requests and and being kind of blown off, he finally felt too humiliated to continue. And I was furious and, uh, took on the diocese and the whole province of New Zealand on this issue. In a sermon that got a lot of attention, [00:14:30] we started a virtual billboard stopping white collar crime and, uh, used the web to, uh, have a petition calling on the diocese to change this policy. Um, and then we followed it up with a billboard that looked like a, um, a metre that looked like called a G, what the church uses to discern people for ordination, [00:15:00] and it had straight and gay on two sides. Um, so we were pretty in their face on that one. The next billboard was, uh, coincided with Luis's bill on marriage equality. As in its first reading, we put it up the day of or the day before the first vote, and that showed two women on top of a wedding cake and with our message that we don't care who's on top [00:15:30] and that that also got a lot of people talking and generated a lot of hate mail. Um, but nothing like the Christmas one, the Christmas one with Jesus with a rainbow halo. It's Christmas time for Jesus to come out generated some of the most nasty, you know, we've had I've finally had to start monitoring. I've tried to let the website and comments be free freely without [00:16:00] censorship, but they were so nasty towards the GO BT Q community. I had to. So nothing goes up anymore that I don't see first. Um, it got lots of attention on Facebook. Lots of comments. It's been picked up by a lot of other Facebook pages and websites and blogs. Um, so it's it's gotten worldwide attention. Um, it [00:16:30] generated some pretty nasty death threats. Um, which we had passed on to the police. Um, so it's it's certainly pushed the issue. There have been complaints to the advertising standards authority, uh, which has upheld us on all the complaints. So, uh, that it didn't breach any of the laws, but people [00:17:00] try. So it, uh it is clear that while I believe the back of homophobia has been broken and the future is clear, uh, it's gonna be a long time before all the wounds are healed and we will have to continue standing up for our gay brothers and sisters. Uh, as they deal with the remnants of that I do [00:17:30] believe these attitudes and values are generational. And as people of my generation and older begin to go, uh, we will see less and less of it. Evidence of that is marked by some rather prominent evangelicals recently coming out, um, saying we gotta let this go. This isn't right. So I'm I'm quite hopeful. [00:18:00] I'm actually quite amazed to have seen all of this in my own lifetime in ministry, and I feel good about having played some small part in pushing it. That first billboard where you were pushing the envelope? What year was that? 2010. Yeah, 2000. Uh, no. 2009. 2009. And when? When? When you were coming up with that concept. Did you have any [00:18:30] incline as to what kind of response you would get? Because obviously you wanted to push. Yeah, I. I did want to push, but I was thinking maybe if I got picked up and side swipe, it would be a success, you know, and I. I certainly thought people would find the humour and let it go. But no, um, it really pushed buttons worldwide, and, uh, I learned [00:19:00] from that, but we can make use of this. And so when that happened, how did the the reason you respond? What kind of debate did you have? Well, let me start where we are now, and then I'll go back. I did a of the congregation, both our online congregation and our our the physical congregation, about a wide variety of issues. But amongst that was how did they feel about our billboards? How did they feel [00:19:30] about our, uh, presence in the media? writing articles, all that sort of thing and pushing these controversial issues. And as of last November, about, um, it was overwhelming support of the congregation. There's some small las and the the most common problem I have are those who say they get tired of having to defend our Christmas [00:20:00] billboards at their Christmas parties or with their families or that sort of thing. And I think they find that uncomfortable. And, uh, But I would say the majority at this time are quite proud of our public position. Um, and are quite supportive. Certainly our online community is quite supportive, uh, overwhelming, Huge. But it's [00:20:30] true. They either strongly support or support uh, in the 80% to 90% percentile. So, um, and Al and almost no one says we shouldn't do them. It's just how important they think they might be. So but the first billboard, you know, none of us were prepared for the worldwide reaction. But, you know, Glenn and I did a, um [00:21:00] kind of a a conversation sermon this first Sunday after that reaction and and then invited people to ask questions and talk about it and, um and yeah, there were some they were. I mean, this was fairly new. I mean, to be this this visible and that provocative. So people were working through it. But what I can say is three years later and several more billboards that were provocative, [00:21:30] they've come to terms with it very well. Yeah, quite proud of that. Talk to me about, uh, the kind of design process that you go through for one of those billboards. I mean, who comes up with a message? How is it formulated? Do you have a test group? A little of that. Um, we have been blessed to have, uh, different, [00:22:00] um, advertising group, uh, companies willing to work with us pro bono. OK, so we don't pay for any of the creative work. Uh, we sometimes have to pay for. Well, we pay for the printing and the scan and installation, basically, And sometimes there's some other cuts, but so we get these quite economically. The the reward for these companies is they use They have a lot more freedom [00:22:30] than they do with their usual clients to come up with things. And then they use these in competitions within their industry. We've won lots of awards for our billboards over the years, Um, even the ones before we got really controversial. Um, the challenge for me is I'm generally these creative teams are young people, and they are, by and large unchurched. [00:23:00] And they have strong stereotypes about what church is. And I have to disabuse them that we aren't their stereotype. So I have to educate them about what what we're about. And that's that's not easy. It's not like I can just give them a paragraph and say, This is how we're different, you know? So it usually takes me a while, especially when I'm starting with a new team to get the message across. Um, but the first [00:23:30] thing in the brief I give them is if this billboard can be comfortable outside any other church, it probably doesn't work for us. OK, start from there. And, um, you know, we we always try to have one at Christmas, Easter and maybe four or five others during the course of the year. Sometimes that's on short notice. We have to deal with what's happening in the culture, and we're trying to reach out not [00:24:00] to people in the church. We're trying to reach out to people who are either sceptical of the church who have been harmed by the church or ignorant of the church. And we're not trying to get them their bums on the pews. We're not trying to build our numbers this way. Though we have had some success that way. What we really want to do is public theology. We wanna engage. We want to be one of the voices in the marketplace of ideas at a time [00:24:30] when the church has a a quieter and quieter voice. Yeah, so we have to use a megaphone to get attention. And, um so the most common complaint is how could you a church say and do these things? You know? Well, we're not talking to the church generally. Sometimes we're confronting the church and their attitudes. But generally we're speaking to the greater culture. And and you know, [00:25:00] I have friends here who are gay and Pakistani. And they went back for Christmas after one of their our billboards and found that some remote part of Pakistan the family was discussing our billboards over over the dinner table. You know, the conversation goes well beyond New Zealand. Um, the uh, last year's Christmas bill board was discussed for 10 minutes on the View, which is a major pro daytime [00:25:30] programme in the US for women predominantly focused on women with Barbara Walters and Whoopi Goldberg. And, you know, and that's how my Children found out about it and they were quite shocked that they're dead. I've gotten this out there, Um, so it's it's really about being discussed. The last Billboard I did a a brief interview on a Sydney [00:26:00] Channel, TV Channel, and some of my Australian friends wrote me and said after your bit, uh, the news readers realised. Do you know we've been talking about Jesus for five minutes and I felt, Yeah, that's what I That's what this is about. You know, if if a few of those people are drawn to us in Auckland to come worship with us on [00:26:30] occasion, that's cool. But that's not our agenda. Our agenda is to to let what our understanding of the Gospel is. Get some discussion out there and to challenge people's stereotypes and to understand that not all churches fit in the same box, um, under the same steel. So it's, uh, I think we're getting pretty good at it. So what, then, is the relationship between, [00:27:00] uh, Saint Matthew's and and the rest of the Anglican Church? Well, there we have our quiet supporters say, Matthew, I got I Saint Matthew's is very unique, and and And we have a responsibility. Because of that, the uniqueness is in how we are funded. We don't really depend on the congregations giving [00:27:30] we welcome in. But our people don't have deep pockets. We just happen to be blessed to have been put on land that's incredibly valuable. And, um, a few victors ago was, uh he was entrepreneurial enough for the congregation to build the car park, which we lease and that undergirds are our budget. [00:28:00] And then we have a view of using our building as kind of a community centre, uh, for all of Auckland. So corporations, uh, nonprofits, private parties use the space, and we profit from that, um, we sometimes sponsor those events so they get made to rates. Uh, if it's, uh, something that fits our agenda. But, uh, that generates [00:28:30] income. We do about 100 weddings a year, which generates some income. Uh, and once somebody gave us a factory in Eden Terrace, which we get some rent from. So because of that, we're not worrying about some important giver in the congregation who might be upset with theology. So while I've had some fairly free pulpits [00:29:00] in my life, I've never had one freer than this. I can say exactly what I think and believe. I'm not calling on everybody else to believe and think the same way. But I am very free to say it, Uh, because our financial stability is not in challenge. Most clergy out there may agree with us, but they don't dare. So we have to speak for them. Um, they generally, [00:29:30] you know, in a a smaller town in particular where you can't go church shopping. There's one England church here, the Anglican. Uh, so there's gonna be the whole broad spectrum of theology and that congregation, um, and those who don't like our theology probably left long ago. Those who are drawn to it are here. They support us, and and so we're able to speak [00:30:00] that consistent voice. So I I recognise it. Others aren't in a position to do what we do. I'm not calling on them to do what we do, we'll do it for them. So, um, we also wish, though that they would use these opportunities when we get media attention, they can get media attention arguing with us if they, like, the Catholics [00:30:30] have gotten pretty good at it. Uh, you know, nobody would be talking to anybody else if it wasn't for our billboards. Uh, but, you know, they have an opportunity to react to it and at least get their views out there if they disagree, Um, at least that furthers the conversation, but unfortunately, they tend not to. Few are starting to here and there. You know, there are people taking us on, and that's fine. Has there ever been a [00:31:00] point where you've looked at the reaction and you've looked at some of, say, the negative reaction to the billboards? And you thought, actually, either we've gone too far or we should take this down or this will be the last one. Has there ever been that moment where you thought you might have crossed a line? Well, personally speaking, No, I can't speak for everybody. Um, I mean, we were We do. I know. Push [00:31:30] right on that fine line and And people say we shouldn't be offending people. I'm sorry. Ideas offend. You know, um, it's not personal, you know, I but yeah, if we're gonna generate a conversation, it's got there's got to be some controversy. We don't do it just for controversy sake. I mean, we're pushing ideas and values we hold, [00:32:00] Uh, but we know that there are many others who don't hold those. And and perhaps there's a certain amount of jealousy that we get the attention. I don't know. Um, but, um, those people just dismiss us. Oh, it's just Saint Matthews. Oh, that church. OK, fine. But since we weren't talking to them anyway, um, we're not too concerned about it. Um, but you have vandalism. [00:32:30] Oh, yeah. In fact, it's wonderful, I. I almost should pay people to vandalise it and I It adds a few more news cycles to the story. I mean, with the Joseph and Mary billboard. It was thanks to it being once painted over, uh, then stolen, then replaced, then attacked by some mad woman with a knife. Um, it was in the Herald nine straight days. [00:33:00] Yeah, in some form or fashion, you know, so and then last year's Christmas billboard got vandalised. I. I thought this one would too. But no, it wasn't. Uh, so it's gonna be used in the Gay Pride parade this year, and I use it. Um, so my favourite story about the vandal [00:33:30] is the guy that painted it over the Joseph of Mary, Uh, two months later, on Trobe Tuesday was in line to get pancakes that we serve out in front of the church to people as they walk by. We got a kick out of that may not like her billboards, but likes her pancakes. You were saying earlier that the kind of agenda for the billboards is not necessary to bring people into church. [00:34:00] Uh, but you But you were also saying that some people have come in through the billboards. Has it brought in more rainbow community? I mean, we have a faith community that's focused on that, and many of them choose to go there. But we also have a number of gay couples who are part of our our 10 o'clock Sunday morning service and, [00:34:30] uh, and feel very comfortable. I'm happy we've had some young people who who are struggling with their gender identity or I mean orientation, not gender identity. We have those two, actually, um, I spoke with one today, actually, uh, who who come? You know, they may not be every Sunday, and they may just kind of come for the service and then disappear again. [00:35:00] Um, I've had I've had people from other parts of New Zealand arrange to come see me to talk about their family situation when they came out or wanting to come out. And, um so it's more than just in Auckland. Um, the, uh I got a lot of wonderful emails and letters [00:35:30] from people in the gay community about the Christmas billboard who they really felt incredible affirmation. So I know it makes up for all the hate mail in a in a hurry. Uh, after several of these kind of billboards, the hate mail kind of just rolls off, but, um, the I used to try and answer all of it I don't bother anymore. [00:36:00] Um, I'm not going to change any minds in my correspondence. Just invites more nastiness. So I've stopped responding to the abuse. Uh, but it gives me a a lot of sympathy for the gay and lesbian community has suffered with that abuse all the time, you know, And it is personal there. So [00:36:30] when somebody from the community comes to you and they're kind of struggling, is this a struggle with the sexuality, or is it more about the sexuality and religion and how they kind of coexist or don't coexist? Yes. I mean, in some cases, it's a, uh, a young person who is pretty sure they know what their orientation [00:37:00] is, but they're not quite sure how to talk to anybody else about it. So they're coming to a safe place to try out how to talk about it. Um uh, some are coming because they come from conservative religious homes and they've heard all of all of the negative stuff, and they're coming to to get another take on it. Um uh, another way of understanding those parts of Scripture that are [00:37:30] always getting thrown at them, Um, and trying to get some reassurance from somebody who's in authority who wears a collar, who, you know, who in their minds from past experience is an unlikely place of support. And, uh, so I'm glad to be there for you. Um, I one of my bigger concerns [00:38:00] is the bullying they receive, the the nastiness they receive and trying to give them support and help them find support groups And, you know, places that will honour who they are and hold them up in the midst of that crap. Put a blood on. Um, but I'm also amazed at some of the young people have come to me who are quite clear and know what their orientation is and at a at a young age, you know, you, you know, mid [00:38:30] to late teens and and are quite articulate about it, but they just kind of want to work through some more issues with it, or they're they've been working with their family, but they're, you know, and they love their family, but their family is still struggling with it, and they're trying to figure out how to help the family deal with it. I mean, I have a Well, the child. She was born my nephew, but she's now my niece. And at the age of three or four new, she was transgender. [00:39:00] I mean, she didn't know the word, but she knew she was a girl. And she's being raised and supported as a girl and, uh, so that we're living in a slightly different world. You know, her parents of, uh, who are a lesbian couple. Um, have worked with the community, the schools, her friends, their neighbours to help them understand [00:39:30] her. Orient, her orientation, her gender orientation. Um, and, you know, she's growing up a very well adjusted young lady. Um, so that wouldn't have happened when I was young. Uh, maybe it wouldn't have happened 20 years ago. So, you know, the world is changing. We're we're making progress. And I'm hoping that while the church is pretty slow on this, it'll eventually come around on this, just [00:40:00] as it did on slavery, just as it did on civil rights. Uh, women, you know, um, maybe not universally, all at the same time. But as long as there are pockets of it, uh, we still provide some hope and honesty where the gospel is concerned. You've been talking about younger people coming to you. Is it also the case for older people coming to you as well? Or was it only young people? Well, I spoke [00:40:30] with a transgender woman today who's 72 and was a he until she was about 60. You, and finally was able to acknowledge she was married, is still married. The same person, you know. She's gone through all that, and she's dealing with some of the the hatred that's out there that she has been fortunate enough not to receive [00:41:00] until recently and trying to figure out how to respond to that. So she came into she was struggling. She just kind of hoped that maybe she could find someone to talk to. So she came in today. So we're a safe place, and people know that, and we will continue to be a safe place, Having received [00:41:30] both positive messages and also a whole lot of negative messages towards, um, this this kind of proactive, um, messaging, how do you keep on the positive side of things without kind of slipping into negativity and and and kind of hopelessness? Well, my hope is is actually in the gay and lesbian community itself, You know, the fact [00:42:00] that they've quit buying into the the crap, you know, that's been pushed on to them by the church and by homophobic people and, uh, and standing tall, you know, and living their lives and being wonderful people, uh, many of whom are quite faithful people who are care about the gospel and have shown great courage. So I have no trouble [00:42:30] finding the hope. Um, And I suppose when I first started getting this kind of mail, I'm an introvert. Um, in most of my ministry, I have not had a prominent place in the, you know, visibility. So until I came here, and that's where I learned all local news, it's national news, and now it's often international news. So it's, uh, that was new for me [00:43:00] and at first somewhat bewildered. Uh, like I told you, I used to answer all the hate mail thinking, I need to reach out and respond, Um, and and they were wounding. And now I'll read the first couple of sentences, and when I see where they're going, I just move on. And that's because we don't deserve to be abused [00:43:30] Now if people write, that's not to say that people who disagree can't write and offer their honest views. And in a respectful way, those all answer I just don't get many of them. But when I get one, I I'll respond to that, um, and try to open up a conversation with them. And occasionally that's been successful rarely, but occasionally. So, um, [00:44:00] but I now look at it as abuse. And if you let yourself just be abused, then you're buying into this. So I just refuse to be abused anymore. Has your time at Saint Matthew's changed your your faith in any way? Yes and no. Um, I mean, my faith journey has always been evolving. So it's It's [00:44:30] continued to evolve since I came to Saint Matthew's almost eight years ago. Um, and there's nothing like standing up and speaking your truth to deepen and push you forward into to where that truth leads. So in that sense, it's been quite formative. But the values I hold were there all along. They're just [00:45:00] deep up now, you know, to walk a path of faith will cost you if you Yeah, if you're willing to stand up for it. And so, yeah, I've taken some crap, um, and but the But I'm still here. I'm fine. Yeah. And so fears that I may have had before, [00:45:30] you know? I mean, I'm I'm used to walking lines before now. Walking line of not going over the line of pushing it the envelope too far before people are ready. Before, I used to push the envelope from the Orthodox side as far as I could, but not crossing that line, Uh, in a pulpit, I would cross the line frequently teaching or counselling. But I didn't do it from a public perspective. When I decided to put the collar back on, I decided this time [00:46:00] I was going to tell it exactly the way I saw it. Whatever it might cost, Um, and I was over. I still remember the first sermons I did that with and how anxious I was. And then I was amazed by how enlightened the congregation was because I was speaking things. They've been thinking anyway, but I hadn't heard from a pulpit. And so, you know, in that way my [00:46:30] faith has been strengthened. My, my, my values and beliefs haven't changed much. Um, but my faith is much stronger.
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