This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. You can search the text using Ctrl-F, and you can also play the audio by clicking on a desired timestamp.
So. Claire Ryan. Sexuality and disability. What's that all about? Uh, what is it all about? Well, no one knows what it's about because no one talks about it. Quite frankly, um, I do. My work that I do is with disabled people talking to them about sexuality and sexual expression, supporting people to, um I guess lead, um the lives that most of us lead. But it would seem that disabled people, uh, struggle a whole lot more because of prejudice and all that [00:00:30] sort of stuff. So, I, I tend to say I work in the sex industry. Which can mean that I work with a variety of people from educational, like family planning. Um, through to people who do actually work in the sex industry. Sex workers, madams, et cetera. Yeah. So you were saying that people often don't talk about sexuality and disability in in kind of the same sentence? Why is that? What are some of the the blocks or the prejudices or stigmas around those two topics converging? [00:01:00] Uh, probably degrees of deviancy. Uh, is it, uh, if you're attracted to a disabled person, then either they are deviant or you're deviant and your attraction to them. Um, and, um, which is is is, you know, untrue. I mean, there are certainly some disabled people who are deviant and will identify as that. But I think in our society, we spend a lot of time trying to look for, um, perfection [00:01:30] within our sexualities. And if you do, if you step outside of that and present in a different way, uh, then that seems to be the predominant thing that people look at rather than the person. So we tend to call disabled people disabled people. First off, um, or we call them clients or patients. Or so it's very, um, asexuals or or some people don't even make it onto that spectrum. Don't even be referred to as bachelors or sponsors that just [00:02:00] yeah, those those poor people sort of thing. Um, so there's lots of invisibility, and I think, uh, it's all about fear. So how did you get into doing this stuff? I, um Well, I started working for a HC back in 1985. Um, and it was through my own sort of coming out process. I think that I realised that, um, disabled people don't get to come out around their sexuality. [00:02:30] And I've never understood why this group of people that are often described as caring and loving and warm and all that sort of stuff, Yeah, don't don't get to express their sexuality. So, um, I went to a conference years ago. Um, and these two guys were, um, doing a presentation. Uh, they're working with a young guy who has Down syndrome, who was a bit of a sexual offender, [00:03:00] and they were getting him to dress up as a karate kid. And he had to come in and karate chop these two anatomically correct dolls. One who was abusing the other. And these guys, these therapists thought they were doing a really great job. And the idea of it was good, but they're kind of replacing one form of violence with another. And, of course, this boy didn't stop being the karate kid when he left the room. Um, So it got me thinking about the whole thing around, [00:03:30] how distorted or all the assumptions we make around people's understanding of sexuality. And I guess how um yeah, for that boy, um, you know, perhaps he just didn't know about boundaries and understanding about his body and all that sort of stuff. Um hm. It wasn't typical for the people I was working with to have any education about sexuality they weren't [00:04:00] referred to as people. They were called service users, I think in those days or clients. So I just kind of went from there and I started. Um, I actually were fantastic to work for because I could do a variety of jobs and managed to create a position where I was a relationships and sexuality advisor, which was thrown back in my face quite a few times from my partners when we'd be having disagreements. Because apparently that meant I knew everything about relationships. I'd like to stress that I [00:04:30] was an advisor, not an expert. Um, but in that role, I got to develop a relationships and sexuality policy, which was, uh, uh, quite pioneering for New Zealand. I thought that when I was given that task, I'd just go and cut and pay someone else's policy. But, um, it would appear that there weren't any in New Zealand, and it's interesting that you'd even have to have a policy on sexuality in a human service industry anyway. But, um Yeah, So we created this policy which took was [00:05:00] supposed to be a year to put together, and it took five years just because it was a hugely emotive thing to do it. It was challenging for families. It was challenging for disabled people. Um, but now it's been adopted by a place in New York. New York has almost copied it. Word for word, which I think is against the law. Um and, uh, other places now have seen the importance of having it because it creates some transparency. And it means that you have to do something about sexuality. And [00:05:30] really, it's just about acknowledging people's gender and who they are and how they stand in the world. It's not about sort of putting people in trucks and sending them off to the local brothel to have sex. It's not about that. It's about just being a bit human. So you're Wellington based. But the work that you do is national. Did you grow up in Wellington? No, I grew up in Christchurch, the Garden city. Um and how is that? How is that Christchurch? Interesting place. I have a friend who [00:06:00] calls it the City of hate. um, but it's a pretty place. It's It's, you know, lovely gardens. No, I enjoyed growing up in Christchurch. Grew up in a great family, and, um, had a very happy life. Yeah. Um, it was very ordinary. Very well, yeah, it was ordinary. Did a lot of went Pony Club and great pony Club girl. And did you come out while you were living at home, or was it later, or it was later on. I remember I went to an all girls [00:06:30] Catholic school, so it was, you know, pretty likely that something was gonna happen. That is an assumption in the stereotype. Yes, isn't it? Um, no, it was great. It was great being taught by women and very, um, a dominant, powerful woman. Some of them were had excelled and going to bad mood school. Yeah. Anyway, I won't go there. Um, so yeah, and I remember in my later years at school someone suggesting that I might be a lesbian [00:07:00] and, um oh, was it Was that a negative thing or just a just a general suggestion or Oh, it was kind of like it was like being given to me as an option. You know, Um and I remember thinking, Oh, I don't want to be that It's far too obvious like everyone's a lesbian, So I'm not going to be one. So I, um I think I spent a lot of time say I was asexuals because I was always very [00:07:30] interested in sexuality. But I didn't have a partner or a lover or anyone until I was 25. So which would have pleased the nuns hugely. Probably if I was still in that state. Um, I was asked to join the convent when I left. School is a career option. Are you glad you didn't? I'm really glad I didn't. Mainly because I you know, I have quite big hair, and I don't think I'd get the veil over it, but, um, yeah, yeah. No, it was, um [00:08:00] Yeah, it was not gonna be an option to join the convent. My father did suggest it when I came out glees him that I could, at least in the old days, I could have joined the convent, which was an interesting insight into what he knew about nuns. So are your family sweet as with with you when you came out or were you all right with you coming out? Did you have to kind of struggle with anything or you just never got around to it Or, um, I guess [00:08:30] I told people and I did the whole thing of draping myself and all sorts of symbols that have, you know, a woman's symbols hanging off my ear and, you know, I. I guess it's that thing of trying to show people how you are more to get sort of validated rather than I don't think anyone came up and sort of congratulated me on now identifying as a lesbian. And I I don't think I ever really was a lesbian. I mean, I didn't know what to come out as so that seems like a good, [00:09:00] good title. It's a nice word. It's kind of a luscious and and now and now do you identify or yeah, I identify as queer? Yeah, yeah, it's a It's a work in progress, I guess for a while I was gender queer. Even though my gender isn't, I'm not planning to change my birth gender. I identify as high fem um, which I think some women [00:09:30] think I'm trying to be superior to them. I probably am on some levels, but it kind of means for me. It's uber fem, and and it's about my. It's more about who I'm attracted to, which is masculine, Um, but not biological men. It's very fluid, I guess. Um, I'm not attracted to biological women as, um as partners as such. But if they add a layer of masculinity on top of that [00:10:00] or anyone who's bothered to sort of, um know who they are or look at their gender or whatever gets my attention. So I'm sorry. You know, people who haven't done that, I'll say hello, but I'll probably move on. So these kind of notions of fluid gender and and I guess, kind of different expressions of gender. Have you seen those change over, you know, over the last two years? Five years, 10 years, or or even for myself? I mean, [00:10:30] um, I've probably had three coming out, So the first one was being, you know, a lesbian, which was It was exciting. It was, You know, there were great days of mullet haircuts. Oh, what's the name? Judy. Small music. Um, and so moved on from that to, um uh I remember going out for dinner once with a couple of, um, Butch identifying people in [00:11:00] a woman who was and I was there. As you know, it was kind of like the just me. I hate that on dating websites where people say I'm not Butch or I'm just me, which I think is saying, I don't know, It's my judgement about people But I was doing a bit of a just me phase. And anyway, I, um we had a conversation about who at the table was what and everyone agreed at the table that I was, and I was furious. I was just like, Yeah, I am [00:11:30] bloody not because I understood to mean weak and pathetic and you know, all the kind of stereotypes of what some people might see as femininity. And then it was one of those things where someone names the truth and you get a little bit defensive about it. And so it took a lot of courage to step out of how I was, because I don't always find the queer community very welcoming of, um, and gender types. Um, [00:12:00] so for me to be wearing skirts and wearing lipstick and I wasn't a lipstick lesbian I was identifying as fem. Um, and I just got a whole lot of power and courage from that. I used to be terrified of going to pubs and being around biological men. Now, going in with this new skin on. I just didn't even notice that they were there. It was very interesting and very important. I remember reading stuff about Butch stuff, and my sister, who's my favourite sister, rang. She's [00:12:30] very straight and I was reading the stuff and crying and going, Oh, I've just been reading about Butch and and, you know, sort of getting all political about gender. And she was kind of going Oh, yeah, that is nice. I was having this big sort of political moment. Um, so that was it. And then, uh, probably in the last oh, five years [00:13:00] have looked have identified as high FM. And that was just AAA move in In terms of solidarity of where I stand. I don't know where I'll go from here. I. I wouldn't mind being a drag queen, perhaps a trans woman, but, um yeah, I like I like it every time. I think I've just settled something else comes along, so it's a work in progress. So has it changed? Yeah, I think it has. I think, um, [00:13:30] it's even The number of re identified people in New Zealand has increased hugely in the way people are doing. That, too, is really cool. It's not all about. Remember, in the seventies and eighties if any man went on holiday to Sydney, Um, everyone used to say they were going over for the operation. Yeah, because they would leave us Stan and come back as Stephanie sort of thing. Um, now people can be Stephanie and they don't have to go to Sydney. They can just sort of cruise around [00:14:00] and identify who they like. So that's cool. That's good. Cool. You talked a little bit about, um, I guess when you're coming up or or for the last however many years, that kind of pressure to conform or being judged, or whatever in in the LGBTI communities or queer communities and that kind of thing And you also talked a little bit about, um, notions of perfection. I think with with bodies and people in regards to everyone's sexualities or just I guess your ability to to be [00:14:30] a sexual person in the world. Do you think that the, you know, queer communities, um, would be better at accepting or more tolerant or more understanding of people with disabilities? What's been your experience of that? Um, yeah, I think so. I think it's the the the types of people who do the work and the human service or disability sector is it attracts people of difference because I think I've met a lot of people who are transgender [00:15:00] or queer or, um, I guess, from a variety of backgrounds because, um, it's a diverse. So it's it's more likely that the disability sector is welcoming of queer people. I don't know if it's the other way around. Um, I don't know what it would like be like. I mean, this is my stereotype. But to be a disabled, um, gay man going to a nightclub where you can't sort of take your shirt off and have [00:15:30] the sort of whatever they call it, those muscles showing and be all sort of cut and and gorgeous, um, you know, the there's those kinds of challenges, Um, but I think it's all you know. It's all based on fear isn't it? We can kind of get scared of ourselves. And and who we are? Um, I, I don't My experience of of the I can't even remember all the letters LGBTI [00:16:00] to the queer community for those letters. Um, my friend, um, Philip Piston, who's known in New Zealand. We, um, hang out a lot. And for two years in a row, we went to the launch of, um it wasn't the hero parade, but whatever it was after the hero Festival was it, I think. And it was the launch of that and both times along, and he couldn't [00:16:30] get in. And the first time What do you mean, he couldn't get in? There was no access. So clearly just there No thought that anyone in a wheelchair would be coming along. Um, And after the first event, um, Philip, and rightly so, you know, put in a complaint to I think it was or someone, um who, you know, was sympathetic and kind of did. Oh, that's no, no, that's terrible. And the next year, they had the and [00:17:00] and that the year that we complained or Philip complained it was in a ground level, um, venue but it was still really awkward to get in. So they they fixed it by, um, having the venue next year and and the place he had stairs in it. So so he couldn't really couldn't go. Um, and it's interesting because it doesn't just mean that Philip can't go. It means that I I can't go and I don't want, you know, if I'm gonna say, Look, I'll go and see what's going on, come back and report. It's kind of like, you know, go [00:17:30] to a restaurant and you have to go and look what's in the Cabinet and come back and tell people I wasn't going to be doing that. Um, And it was just a really good example of how difference within a different community is not considered. And yeah, I think notions of beauty and who's attractive. And certainly when disabled people identify as being queer, I get asked a lot to come and work with people who are disabled, who might be saying that they're gay or lesbian [00:18:00] or transgender or whatever. I've never been asked to come and work with someone who might be identifying as straight, so we're still in that thing of disbelief that, um, those people, and especially people with intellectual impairment, would really understand what it is to be queer Or, um what? I don't understand what it is to be queer. I just know that I see a certain type of person and, you know, parts of my body react differently or I feel good. Um, yeah, [00:18:30] I think it's all a lot of rubbish. A lot of the time you are just how you are. You're just me. But it's it's, um yes, it's far too many, you know, that I've supported two disabled people to start their transition around gender, and the battles that they have have been monumental. It's amazing that they still are around. You know that, Um, endocrinologists are are sort of taking people on and off, or one woman [00:19:00] trans woman on and off her hormones over a period of 20 plus years. Um, and not and because she would see a different endocrinologist each time, um, she would be treated differently. There was no consistency, and and people didn't believe because she didn't dress as a female. She wasn't believed to be a trans woman because it must be her intellectual impairment that's making her do all that stuff. It was just rubbish. Hm. II. I don't [00:19:30] know if that those experiences could be similar for people without intellectual impairment. I think it's probably the medical professional on some levels, but it seemed a whole lot harder. So a lot of the work that you've done, um, around sexuality and disability, what have the responses been like? Um, can people get their heads around it? Or is it one of these things that you you do a workshop and they're like, Oh, yeah, cool or everyone. It's kind of like that, Um, everyone can see the point [00:20:00] of it. It's just like what to do about it. You know, it becomes a problem. People talk about the issues around disability and sexuality. Disabled people don't have sexuality, they have issues with it. You know where the rest of us get up and get on with our day sort of thing. Um, and I think it is really challenging. It's a it's a mindset thing about Yeah, there's lots of discussion around vulnerability and talking with some professionals about this online recently, and, um, the assumption [00:20:30] is that that disabled people are vulnerable, and there are some people who are. But the assumption was that being vulnerable was a negative thing. And in fact, when you're vulnerable, there's a whole lot of possibilities for really nice nurturing and closeness. That could happen because if you're not vulnerable, then you can let that part of your life can be overlooked. Um, but a lot of what goes on in the disability sector I've noticed over my 25 years of being a part of it, [00:21:00] is, um, it is about fear. It's it's things like people now or or some of the government agencies. These standards are things like, um, when disabled people are supported to have showers that support workers need to wear gum, boots and aprons and gloves. So, you know, you've almost got this kind of freezing worker coming towards you to wash your body. Um, and if a guy I know who's disabled talked about how the the great [00:21:30] thing about him going to see a sex worker is that she didn't wear a glove, wear any gloves when she touched him, and he found that incredibly exciting because everyone's always touched him. When they've touched his body, they put gloves on so they're gonna They're gonna catch cerebral palsy. Um, so it's getting back to some of those basics. It's that getting rid of the fear and just always swapping places and thinking, You know, if it was me on the changing table in the bathroom having someone take my clothes off, how would [00:22:00] I want that to happen? And how enhancing is that of my gender and who I am? Or, um, if you are really attracted to a certain gender that that that might be really embarrassing for you to have someone support you and using the toilet or whatever it's thinking about those sorts of things, it's It's more in my workshop. I try to get people to think about what they think about stuff rather than tell them what they should be doing. And it's. It usually means people have to be, quite, [00:22:30] um, self analysing of their own behaviour and their own sexuality. Which, of course, raises a whole lot of issues for people sometimes. So what could queer communities or LGBTI communities? What? What could we think about? Oh, well, yeah, that that's, um, Philip. Wheelchair access for a start. Yeah, that would be nice. Um, Philip talks. I mean, you go and visit Philip Patton's website. You'll, um would [00:23:00] you like some of them to look at WWW dot diversity? NZ dot co dot NZ? Um, and on there, Philip has got some links to some of his other, um, websites, one of which is why species and, um, Philip has moved on from the social model of disability and thinking, Um, and the social model is all about that. Disability is a social construct, so people have impairments. But when they get [00:23:30] to a set of stairs at the launch of the Euro festival, they become disabled because they can't get up the stairs. Um, and it's because of the lack of thinking that, um, I guess in everything that's organised now, everything that we do, you should expect that people of all sorts of diversity are gonna come along. And it's it's about if you if you can't cater for that person's needs, that it's not a panic, and it's not their fault, and it's not something that they have to fix. It's quite [00:24:00] gracious just to say, Yeah, we really muck it up next year. Can you help us get it right and talking to the people that, um, actually have those experiences of the world. So Philip will talk about how we all have common experiences of the world. But there are some people that have unique experiences of it. So maybe within the LGBTI ZK community, um, that we, uh, would, uh, look for [00:24:30] and invite uniqueness and be prepared for that to come in many different shapes and forms and just be prepared to learn from We're never gonna get it right, You know, for me, sometimes there's a bigger woman going along and sitting in a chair that has arms on the side of it, and I stand up in that chair is still attached to me. That's my my unique experience of the world. It's not always about the big stuff. It's just about creating environments. [00:25:00] And and sometimes it's just about that. It's just about being nice to people. I find it really difficult when I go to, you know, we're all we all go to an event because our commonality is about who we happen to sleep with, and sometimes people have been just so unfriendly and and it's kind of like we're all competing for the same same personal thing or what? I don't know. Sometimes we are. Sometimes we are. And I guess it's hard when I win all the time. That's why people react [00:25:30] to me. No, but, you know, it's just that we're all a little bit suspicious of each other. And I guess I I can remember when the law reform was coming through. But I, I think that, um there was something really good about, um, being queer being against the law. I kind of wish it was still that way. Um, because there is some power in being, um the underdog. There was some kind of unifying factor. Um, I remember [00:26:00] talking to someone on the line once on a It was a pickup line. It didn't go too well. It was just, um uh she was saying to me something about being marginalised, and I said I actually quite like being marginalised because it gave me a sense of purpose and solidarity, and I didn't see it as a negative thing. I saw it then I quite like the fact that someone wanted to marginalise me. They saw that I was different to them, and that was quite important [00:26:30] to me. I don't want to be the same, and I think that's what I see happening in the community is. You know, I think it's great that people want to get married. But I wasn't actually go out and protest about the fact that I couldn't because I kind of like the fact that I couldn't because it it, it made again, made me have to think about what I really want. You know, I don't always have to have the same rights as everyone else for me, But I think I know it's important for other people. So and I think [00:27:00] that's what's good about the disability sector is it's still talk about a marginalised group that, you know, we haven't really come a long way in terms of our thinking around, um, disability or uniqueness. Um, so it's a It's a very cool community to be a part of because there are some amazing amazing people, amazing resilience and insight into the world that just do their stuff, and they don't have to have a parade [00:27:30] or festival about it. Um, and I guess the disability arts is the emerging way that people who are activists are getting their message across, which is a really cool way of doing it. Very peaceful. Some of the performances are quite angry, but it it seems like a very intelligent way of getting a message across. Hm. Cool. Fantastic. Um, thanks Heaps for [00:28:00] your time and for yarn with us.
This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
Tags